Improved Trip and Severlin… what is correct?

[Vyrzain]

Improved Trip and Severlin… what is correct?

On 4-7-15 Severlin wrote…

Improved Trip will have a DC of 14 + (Greater of Strength or Dexterity) + Trip bonuses.

In the post titled “rogue enhancement dc”

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/458282

I just picked up Improved Trip on my Dex based Rogue.

I also have a +4 Insightful Combat Mastery item and +3 to Trip from the ‘Trip Focus’ Enhancement.

So my DC should be 14 + 13 dex + 3 enchantment + 4 item = 34 DC if the above is correct and if Combat Mastery and the Enhancement is applying.

‘Sweeping Strikes’ works fine but that adds in the Rogue level so it should go off more. I am just having issues with Improved Trip working and Improved Trip takes two FEATs.

So the question is what Severlin stated correct, that Dex is used for ‘Improved Trip’ true ?

Because if ‘Improved Trip’ is only Str then I will need to spec out of it as there is an 8 point difference between Dex and Str.

OR

Is ‘Improved Trip’ Bugged?

[Lonnbeimnech]

The save is the better of str or dex. So if the person being tripped has higher dex than it has str, then dex is used, and if it has higher str than it does dex, then str is used.

The DC (the check that the victim has to beat with their save) of the improved trip is based on str, and the DC of sweeping strikes is based on dex.

[General_Gronker]

Dang. You've got a 36 Dex? Nice.

Edit: Also, what the person above me said. You're misunderstanding who is applying the better of Strength or Dexterity bonus. It's not you. It's the target.

[Vyrzain]

Ok… I can somewhat see the misunderstanding but….

In the same posting Severlin writes…

Sweeping Strikes will have a DC of 10 + Half Rogue Level + (Greater of Strength or Dexterity) + Trip bonuses.

Enemies will use a Strength check rather than Balance as the roll against the initial DC.

All trips will be balanced assuming the opponent will be making a Strength check against its DC.

It's how the pen and paper version works, and it will be consistent across Trip abilities.

Balance will used to determine whether you get up after the trip.

That made me think that Strength is the Check the Foes make against my DC and for that DC I get is EITHER my Str or Dex plus other bonuses?


Then when I mouse over the in-game icon of ‘Sweeping Strikes’ the “Save” part of that info reads “SAVE: 41 (Strength)”

This seems to fit in with what was written on how Trips work.

DC 10 + 15 level + 13 Dex + 3 Enhancement = 41 DC

Note…

It seems that in-game you get Rogue Level for ‘Sweeping Strikes’.


Am I still missing the point here OR are there Display issues in-game with the wording?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

incredibly misleading to post that the dc is x+y+str or dex, if in reality its x+y+str vs str or dex...

how does this game work? smh...

[psykopeta]

That made me think that Strength is the Check the Foes make against my DC and for that DC I get is EITHER my Str or Dex plus other bonuses?

yup, u're right

1 different things is expecting that something that is announced, is working on live, please, they're different things, pretty much specially on DDO and after been announced severlin times (that reminds me the stat bonus to SWF, and the display XDDDDD)

[Vyrzain]

To sum this up and to close out this post….

Severlin miss wrote in the post on how Trips work for the game build we have now.

The information the Executive Producer provided is in error at the time of this posting and does not reflect what is live in-game.

What is live in-game.…

Trip and Improve Trip have a DC based off YOUR Strength and your Foe can save against this with the Greater of their Strength or Dexterity.

Improve Trip only adds +4 to YOUR Strength DC and it requires two FEATs to get.

The Sweeping Strike enhancement has a DC based off YOUR Dexterity and your Foe can save against this with the Greater of their Strength or Dexterity.

Even though the in-game tool tip for Sweeping Strike lists the “Save” as Strength; your Foe can also use their Dexterity if Dexterity is greater then their Strength.

Next, even though the in-game tool tip for Sweeping Strike lists ( “Balance” DC 10 + Rogue Level + Dexterity Modifier Negates trip).
This is NOT a Balance Save but the greater of Strength or Dexterity for your Foe.


Enhancements and or Items may or may not affect these Saves as the in-game tool tips may not show changes to the DC of Trip, Improved Trip and Sweeping Strike.


Please check the above for accuracy.

Thanks

[stoerm]

Correct. Small addition: The trip time is 30s and 60s for improved trip. "Negates" means the additional save once every 2s to get up early. That is a balance skill check instead of str or dex. See the wiki. I don't know why that is in the tool tip instead of the actual trip DC.

[Vyrzain]

Thanks for the reply.

When I was able to get Improved Trip to work on CR 19 Cleric said Foe was only prone for like 2 sec : (

And that was after getting hit with Sly Flourish for a -1 Balance and being Shaken for another -1 to skill checks.

Even with an Improved Trip DC of 26 the FEAT would only go off maybe 5% of the time and only on Clerics and on Casters.

So I trained out of it.

I do wish it worked like Severlin stated.

[Miow]

Thanks for the reply.

When I was able to get Improved Trip to work on CR 19 Cleric said Foe was only prone for like 2 sec : (

And that was after getting hit with Sly Flourish for a -1 Balance and being Shaken for another -1 to skill checks.

Even with an Improved Trip DC of 26 the FEAT would only go off maybe 5% of the time and only on Clerics and on Casters.

So I trained out of it.

I do wish it worked like Severlin stated.

That dc is super weak you can probably get much higher what level are you?

[Vyrzain]

That dc is super weak you can probably get much higher what level are you?

Level 18.

If Improved Trip was Dex based then it would be +8 higher. So DC 34.

Also remember that I have +3 from the Rogue enchantment and +4 from an Item.
And we just got the Tactical Training Room so +1 from that.
Not sure how to get it any higher.

As stated above, I made a Dex base Acrobat and thought after reading Severlin’s post that Improved Trip would be good for said Acrobat.

We see now that was not the case.

[Miow]

Level 18.

If Improved Trip was Dex based then it would be +8 higher. So DC 34.

Also remember that I have +3 from the Rogue enchantment and +4 from an Item.
And we just got the Tactical Training Room so +1 from that.
Not sure how to get it any higher.

As stated above, I made a Dex base Acrobat and thought after reading Severlin’s post that Improved Trip would be good for said Acrobat.

We see now that was not the case.

Well here is a an extra +4 http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Light_Unending only ml 13

[Vyrzain]

Well here is a an extra +4 http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Light_Unending only ml 13

Does that Vertigo even work on the Staff for Trips?

From the Official Known Issues post….

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...l-Known-Issues

The Vertigo and Dazing weapon effects are affecting the wrong effects.
Vertigo is increasing the DC of Stunning effects instead of Trip effects, and Dazing is affecting Trip effects rather than Stunning effects.

[Violith]

Does that Vertigo even work on the Staff for Trips?

From the Official Known Issues post….

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...l-Known-Issues

The Vertigo and Dazing weapon effects are affecting the wrong effects.
Vertigo is increasing the DC of Stunning effects instead of Trip effects, and Dazing is affecting Trip effects rather than Stunning effects.

havent bothered to personally test either ability yet, but according to steel and cordovan, vertigo is fixed. And steel said dazing was fixed in u21 (however cordo's post is from june, and u21 was back in march. so not sure which is correct whether it was fixed, or still broken), if it is still broken, then it is increasing trip DC. And yes, vertigo works on trips. (They had the abilities working, just had the names calling to the opposite ability somehow, so you'd think it would've been an easy fix to just reswitch the names)

(

The Vertigo part has been fixed, but the Dazing part remains. I'll adjust the Known Issues today.

)
(

~snip

To the best of my (quick-researching) knowledge, Dazing was fixed around U21. If there ARE problems with Dazing item effects in any form at the moment, please submit a bug report with the specific effect and we'll take a look.

OK! We're still watching this thread, so please keep the good feedback rolling.

-Steel

[Vyrzain]

havent bothered to personally test either ability yet, but according to steel and cordovan, vertigo is fixed.
And steel said dazing was fixed in u21 (however cordo's post is from june, and u21 was back in march. so not sure which is correct whether it was fixed, or still broken), if it is still broken, then it is increasing trip DC.
And yes, vertigo works on trips. (They had the abilities working, just had the names calling to the opposite ability somehow, so you'd think it would've been an easy fix to just reswitch the names)

See this is part of my, for lack of a better word, frustration.

Even from the “Official Known Issues” posting dated 7-27-2015… only 9 days since that post was last updated the Vertigo / Dazing issue is still listed as not being fixed.

So who does one believe?

The Official and updated post from the Dev’s or some random Quote made on ‘X’ date?

Missing leading information like this is what started this post as I thought that the Executive Producer would have the correct information only to find out that is not the case. What Severlin provided was in error for what is now live.

What makes this harder is that even the in-game tool tips are not correct for what is displayed as you see above with the ‘Sweeping Strikes’ Rogue ability.

I just wanted to make the good Acrobat using Trips as a form of CC in our small group. This we do mainly for Story as we know there are better builds out there that focus more on DPS.

If there was a way to test what works and what does not work in-game that would be great; but I do not see / know of anyway to test Trips to see what is adding and what does not add.

If someone on these boards knows please share that info.

We have the Training dummy for DPS..... but to see if something like say +8 Vertigo is working or not working what does one do?






Screenshot of the current Official Known Issues posting….



Maybe if Cordovan and or Steelstar are reviewing this then one of them would be so kind as to update that Official Known Issues page?

[FestusHood]

A long while ago, when the vertigo and dazing effects were crossed up, you could see this in the combat log when you equipped the item. You equipped vertigo and the combat log reported that it was increasing your stun dc. At least according to the combat log, this was fixed, though i haven't checked in a while to see if they reverted.

Interesting that even when dazing and new vertigo were mixed up, the older versions of these effects still worked. For example, the older version of dazing was simply called stunning. The new and old version of the trip bonus effect are both called vertigo. The newer versions added a -1 debuff to a saving throw on a cooldown timer. The old version of vertigo doesn't have this debuff effect.

[Thalone]

If there was a way to test what works and what does not work in-game that would be great; but I do not see / know of anyway to test Trips to see what is adding and what does not add.

When I get curious whether DCs are working as advertised, I dualbox PVP. That way, I can see exactly the save rolls and the pass/fail status.

[Vyrzain]

When I get curious whether DCs are working as advertised, I dualbox PVP. That way, I can see exactly the save rolls and the pass/fail status.

Dualbox is hard for me but maybe I can get one of our Group to do some testing like this with me... thanks for the idea.

[Vyrzain]

UPDATE…


Looks like someone made the change to the Current Known Issues as of (8-12-2015).

I no longer see the Vertigo / Dazing issue listed.

Thanks... that is one issue off this posting solved : )