A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[apacheizm23]

And another thread slipped into Hardcore x Casuals. Sigh.

Please, read this Magic Player Profile article (Timmy, Johnny, Spike) that do a much better job explaining player nuances than the simple binarism that is "hardcore x casual". This article is almost ten years old, and is still spot-on for MOST multiplayer games.

Some people keep playing because they want flashy stuff. Some people play because they love to build new character concepts. Some people play because they like to master the system and be above all. Some people play because of challenge. Some people play because their friends are playing and they want to play with them. Some people just want to collect everything that is in game (pets, past lifes, named gear, whatever).

While you (general you, not directed at anyone) still believe that there is a mythical player that is hardcore because they ONLY care about being being top level running raids in the highest possible difficulty, and the other mythical player is only logging to play Khortos on casual, the discussion will never advance past attacks.



Ditto. Specially because you can't easily re-quote replies in quotes.

Good post I agree.

[apacheizm23]

Sorry Fran your oppinions are far from accurate

PowerGamers are not the pay2skip crowd eating up OrtosBoxes just to get to the end.

To most PowerGamers that trip from 1-20 20-28 is trivial too trivial to pay out of pocket for a bypass

Agree with this also. That's right.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

No player I've ever seen in 4 years playing this game who's levelled that fast could in any way be considered "Casual"!

And simply getting to 28 will only level 2 {maybe 3 destinies} - On Most characters this actually means NO COCOON!

Levelling to 28 itself will take a "Casual" MONTHS!
E-TRing to complete destinies adds weeks possibly months on to this time!
And you ignore 2nd and 3rd Life too!

This is truth. They way you are typing it sounds exaggerated but its pretty spot on.

And gear:

1) Most Random Loot in Epics is Vendor Trash! OR double-up {Having 3 items with +5, +6 and +7 Str on them is utterly pointless but that's what people who rely on Random Loot end up with!

2) Named Loot requires a certain amount of Grind - If levelling fast you'll get very little actual named loot that's useful for YOUR character.

3) Augments are P2W - P2W despite what some people seem to believe suits Power Gamers far more than Casuals!

4) Levelling fast you'll pick up plat at a steady rate but by 28 you'll still have less than 1 million unless you've been playing the AH.
And you can forget AS unless you're willing to P2W!
1 Million Plat won't get you much these days - And if you've been filling up on Pots, Scrolls and Wands as you level that number will be much lower!


ACTUAL Casuals do ask for DDO to be made easier BUT what the Devs have given us over the past 2 years has catered almost exclusively to Power Gamers.
Ghostbane being a notable EXCEPTION that was aimed at Newbies after the Devs read some exit surveys rather than at "Casuals"

I almost always agree with ya Fran. Here however there's another way to look at it. Now we do have casual players that agree with this. However many of our guildies who would describe themselves as casual players would disagree with the above. They DO get to run the tough raids, they DO get the named gear, because in a guild like ours we do these things and share in the reward. We run at the slowest member of the party unless we agree otherwise. That way, we can cater to everyone, while respecting our highly cherished casual players. This way they are getting better just because they are learning the game better. In time its truly hard to distinguish player skill differences.

Newbie, Casual, Power-Gamer, Hardcore and many other designators AREN'T mutually exclusive.
A Hardcore Gamer may only play DDO once a Month!
A Casual Gamer may play DDO every day!

This is very true and many miss this common sense statement! Playtime definitely does not equal game knowledge, player skill or anything else.

Which one of these has more use for P2W?
It's NOT the Casual:
The Casual doesn't need 1 Heroic and 3 Epic Otto's Boxes to bypass the levelling process so they can get straight into the End-Game!
The Casual doesn't need to throw money at getting Augments or Raid Timers so she can gear up as fast as possible!

What the Casual DOES need however is people to play with at the level that Casual is capable at and with BB, Timer Bypasses and Destinies the number of people willing to run anything other than Elite has not so much dwindled as CRASHED & BURNED!

Go ahead - Tell the Casual he/she HAS to solo the lower difficulties in a game based on Dungeons & Dragons {Possibly the most Teamwork oriented hobby ever invented!} AND in a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG!
See that Casual RUN from the game!

I mostly agree with this very controversial statement. That's pretty much why I created my guild... to create a haven for those that don't choose to play with the most pompous powergamers and elitist Aholes.

Now you wrote it over the top of course Blade Barrier never made anyone quit DDO to my knowledge On the other hand, raid bypasses are terrific for those who have a job and dont have all day to sit at their computer and play, especially if they forgot to pick up their end item (Aheem! Im GUILTY of that on occasion! ) But you are also correct in saying they are abused by powergamers.

Another thing I disagree with is casuals as you put them are NOT relegated to just heroic dungeons, unless they want to play there. We TOTALLY support that choice in Tyrs. However if you want to be in the end game... we have guildies that can help you get there if you so choose to. So a GUILD is the solution to this problem for "casual" players that wish too see more of the game without playstyles or egos that hither their enjoyment of the game.

** I will give you props though, I'm sure you are a valuable and fun member of whatever guild(s) you reside in.

[Oxarhamar]

snip~ I've got BETTER - The game hasn't got EASIER!

The game has gotten exponetially easier a on so many different fronts:
lowered xp requirements, class buffs, multi classing made easier, PRR & MRR, heartseeds, full raid loot list in 20th, removal of tiered loot....This list goes on.

If you can't see that the games easier than how have you improved?

[FranOhmsford]

Now you wrote it over the top of course Blade Barrier never made anyone quit DDO to my knowledge On the other hand, raid bypasses are terrific for those who have a job and dont have all day to sit at their computer and play, especially if they forgot to pick up their end item (Aheem! Im GUILTY of that on occasion! ) But you are also correct in saying they are abused by powergamers.

BB = Bravery Bonus in this Context!

Though tbh Blade Barrier also has its issues for newbies and more Casual Players without the gear and specific build to make it work properly.

Blade Barrier is marketed by Power-Gamers as some sort of Cure-All BUT you need to play in a certain way {ZERG!} or kite like a Maniac on a standard Cleric or FvS that doesn't go all out DC Build!

Then there's the fact that Mob Archers and Casters rarely move at all unless you get in their faces so BB is reduced again to only working properly on Melee mobs.

BB is also quite expensive SP wise. {If it worked more like Firewall then I could see the Power-Gamers point but it doesn't.}

[Oxarhamar]

BB = Bravery Bonus in this Context!

Though tbh Blade Barrier also has its issues for newbies and more Casual Players without the gear and specific build to make it work properly.

Blade Barrier is marketed by Power-Gamers as some sort of Cure-All BUT you need to play in a certain way {ZERG!} or kite like a Maniac on a standard Cleric or FvS that doesn't go all out DC Build!

Then there's the fact that Mob Archers and Casters rarely move at all unless you get in their faces so BB is reduced again to only working properly on Melee mobs.

BB is also quite expensive SP wise. {If it worked more like Firewall then I could see the Power-Gamers point but it doesn't.}

Blade Barrier, your doing it wrong.

Once an Arti,Cleric,FVS gets BB there is no other spell to cast, just run a leave Blade Barrier behind you as you advance to the end of the quest. Enemy mobs will comit Suiside trying to reach you. Archers & Casters will eventually chase after you to shoot/cast on you they will melt Thier faces off in your Bkade Barrier as well.

No need for max DC build just your stat investment level ups a +6 item as well as kinetic spell power and Crit chance.


For me on these types of classes, I only cast Blade Barrier and never shrine or run out of SP in a quest just run to the end.

Your problem is your not doing it efficiently or you except the spell to do something differently than it does.

Blade Barrier is amazing (at least in Heriocs) with very little investment.

[Qhualor]

Blade Barrier is amazing (at least in Heriocs) with very little investment.

than you meet 20k rats and mobs evading BB in epics.

[Oxarhamar]

than you meet 20k rats and mobs evading BB in epics.

Way to ignore what you quoted.


I don't use Blade Barrier in epics but, there are those who do. You'd have to talk to the Caster Artificers for that one.

[FranOhmsford]

Defense of Blade Barrier.

I never said Blade Barrier was a bad spell!

What I said is that certain vets worship it as a Cure-All without accepting that it has its issues!

Newbies get told that Blade Barrier will turn them into Gods and when they realise what this requires {Zerging or Kiting along with specific Build and Gear} they can get disenchanted!

Many mobs have pretty strong defenses vs BB - Archers and Casters barely move so unless it one shots them it's not worth casting!
Healers will quickly heal up any damage that doesn't kill them outright!
Melee will have high hp and saves anyway!

Cometfall does similar amounts of dmg but also stuns the mobs - It's just as much of a SP drain BUT I personally find it a better option in Sands/GH territory.

Not that either option is a Cure-All for a Melee Cleric or WF Soul or Repeater specced Arti - They do help however.

[MangLord]

The whole point of the suggestion is to extend the content by preventing us from roflstomping content on normal.

You make a good point, but you also bring up a tertiary point that players don't seem to have any level of self control. It's an argument like:
"Mommy, you brought home a bottle of great wine, but you didn't tell me not to drink it all in one night, so you now owe me another, better bottle since you brought me the first and now I'm drunk and thirsty again. If you don't buy one now, I'll be forced to seek emancipation and allow you to wallow in your guilt".

If force-limiting players to running a quest only once a day is what it takes to get people to appreciate the content, then I'm all for it. Of course, that would eliminate the convenience of an EE/EH/EN farming run with bypasses after you've finally gathered a party for a rare raid, but that is a small price to pay. Seeing friends posting their top end gear the day after the content dropped makes me question their life choices every time. The game is great but some people have no level of self control, and then they freely whine to the community at large until the devs start to listen.

[Oxarhamar]

I never said Blade Barrier was a bad spell!

What I said is that certain vets worship it as a Cure-All without accepting that it has its issues!

Newbies get told that Blade Barrier will turn them into Gods and when they realise what this requires {Zerging or Kiting along with specific Build and Gear} they can get disenchanted!

Many mobs have pretty strong defenses vs BB - Archers and Casters barely move so unless it one shots them it's not worth casting!
Healers will quickly heal up any damage that doesn't kill them outright!
Melee will have high hp and saves anyway!

Cometfall does similar amounts of dmg but also stuns the mobs - It's just as much of a SP drain BUT I personally find it a better option in Sands/GH territory.

Not that either option is a Cure-All for a Melee Cleric or WF Soul or Repeater specced Arti - They do help however.

Wow Comet fall ? Knockdown is not stun. No wonder your having trouble with SP.

If either spell is closer to a "cure all" yeah you've chosen the wrong one while Comet fall can be useful sometimes.


There's no point in debating which one is better or how to you them you've chosen and no amount of guiding you how to efficiently spend your SP using Blade Barrier as an offensive spell will convince you otherwise.


persistent 30 second spell that can hit multiple times Vs. 1 hit with knockdown.

Blade Barrier is only "not a cure all" for you because you chose not to play to its powers instead wishing it worked like "firewall"

[FranOhmsford]

Wow Comet fall ? Knockdown is not stun. No wonder your having trouble with SP.

Stun - Knockdown - Both last mere seconds in this game so please tell me the RELEVANT difference?

If either spell is closer to a "cure all" yeah you've chosen the wrong one while Comet fall can be useful sometimes.

I find Cometfall slightly more useful to the way I play - NEITHER are Cure-Alls!

Blade Barrier is only "not a cure all" for you because you chose not to play to its powers instead wishing it worked like "firewall"

Kiting and Zerging are not and should not be required playstyles!

A spell that works better for one playstyle is fine.
One that REQUIRES a specific playstyle is NOT!

Now I didn't even say that Blade Barrier required those Playstyles - I said that it required either {not both} of them if you want to get the most out of it - i.e. the first of the above options!


I would like to ask that before you jump down my throat again you try to understand that I'm NOT stating an absolute here!
I'm not saying that Blade Barrier is a bad spell!
I'm not saying that it's not a good spell even!
I'm just saying that things aren't as simple as "Take Blade Barrier as soon as you can and everything's peachy" for a Newbie or a Casual.

[Braegan]

Stun - Knockdown - Both last mere seconds in this game so please tell me the RELEVANT difference?

The big difference is +50% Damage to Helpless Mobs ( which is given by Stun, but not knockdown).

And yeah +50% Damage is pretty big.

[Oxarhamar]

The big difference is +50% Damage to Helpless Mobs ( which is given by Stun, but not knockdown).

And yeah +50% Damage is pretty big.

this

[Oxarhamar]

Stun - Knockdown - Both last mere seconds in this game so please tell me the RELEVANT difference?



I find Cometfall slightly more useful to the way I play - NEITHER are Cure-Alls!




Kiting and Zerging are not and should not be required playstyles!

A spell that works better for one playstyle is fine.
One that REQUIRES a specific playstyle is NOT!

Now I didn't even say that Blade Barrier required those Playstyles - I said that it required either {not both} of them if you want to get the most out of it - i.e. the first of the above options!


I would like to ask that before you jump down my throat again you try to understand that I'm NOT stating an absolute here!
I'm not saying that Blade Barrier is a bad spell!
I'm not saying that it's not a good spell even!
I'm just saying that things aren't as simple as "Take Blade Barrier as soon as you can and everything's peachy" for a Newbie or a Casual.

Just no, it is as simple as Take BB put on a wisdom item, kinetic spell power and lore cast BB and win. (at least for Heroic)

I understand what your stating that you cannot take the advice of the forum and use a spell to the best of its ability because, you'd rather just not be efficient. Then you go on about it costing a lot of SP which it doesn't if you use it efficiently.

This is the farthest from the truth on how Blade Barrier works on Heroic maybe bothered to learn how to use it you'd understand.


You have some obsession with "zerging and Kiting" being the best ways to Blade Barrier and let me tell you Neither are needed to use Blade Barrier but, first you'd have to understand how the spell works and how to best deploy it. that you have and will ignore again and again so there's no point in trying to inform you, your mind is made up.


Comet fall works better for you Good job. that has absolutely nothing to do with Blade Barrier not being overall better in most circumstances.

[FestusHood]

You have some obsession with "zerging and Kiting" being the best ways to Blade Barrier and let me tell you Neither are needed to use Blade Barrier but, first you'd have to understand how the spell works and how to best deploy it. that you have and will ignore again and again so there's no point in trying to inform you, your mind is made up.

I'm curious too. Without zerging or kiting, how do you make blade barrier a highly efficient killer? For the record, what you mentioned as your use of it in an earlier post qualifies as zerging, so it needs to be something else.

[Cordovan]

This is not a thread to discuss perceptions about who is "casual" and who is "hardcore". Stick to the OP topic of Update 24's dungeons, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc.

[Thar]

This is not a thread to discuss perceptions about who is "casual" and who is "hardcore". Stick to the OP topic of Update 24's dungeons, Temple of Elemental Evil, etc.

Can we veto the new madness chain? The first two are the most annoying quests in the game outside of 3bc.

[Oxarhamar]

I'm curious too. Without zerging or kiting, how do you make blade barrier a highly efficient killer? For the record, what you mentioned as your use of it in an earlier post qualifies as zerging, so it needs to be something else.

Another option to optimize Blade Barrier without zerging for a melee type as seamed Fran was using is to fight on the cusp of the Blade Barrier. The mobs will be hit multiple times as they shuffle around positioning to hit you especially if you hit and move as you bash away. No need to Zerg no need to kite just basic twitch style beat downs on the edge of the spell will do wonders.


On ToEE I love it, please more than one quest, Tangleroot style.

[Cetus]

You make a good point, but you also bring up a tertiary point that players don't seem to have any level of self control. It's an argument like:
"Mommy, you brought home a bottle of great wine, but you didn't tell me not to drink it all in one night, so you now owe me another, better bottle since you brought me the first and now I'm drunk and thirsty again. If you don't buy one now, I'll be forced to seek emancipation and allow you to wallow in your guilt".

If force-limiting players to running a quest only once a day is what it takes to get people to appreciate the content, then I'm all for it. Of course, that would eliminate the convenience of an EE/EH/EN farming run with bypasses after you've finally gathered a party for a rare raid, but that is a small price to pay. Seeing friends posting their top end gear the day after the content dropped makes me question their life choices every time. The game is great but some people have no level of self control, and then they freely whine to the community at large until the devs start to listen.

I totally agree with this, which is why I think we need the timers to prevent people from ransacking day 1. Couple that with some desirable drops that take EE to get, and you'll have adequate improvement in content longevity.