A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[Theolin]

Some additional info:

~ The Xoriat dungeons are all new content.

~ The Temple of Elemental Evil, as a classic dungeon set in another world, with be accessed magically and directly. The epic version will be level 30, and the heroic version will start at level 7 as the original was level 1-8.

~ We won't be creating the villages as part of the Temple of Elemental Evil. Yes, it makes us sad as well. Our estimates of the time it would take to run that pre-content was very low, and the development time estimates were so high we didn't feel that the additional play experience would be worth pushing the update out by months.

Instead players will get right to the heart of the adventure.

~ The Temple is very large, and we want players to have a reason to explore it even on subsequent runs. We want to find a fun system to reward exploring the temple rather than just running the most efficient path to finish the quests, and plan on having some rewarding optional objectives that randomly spawn and give out good XP and treasure.

Sev~

I would much rather have a bunch of small adventures that can be done in 5-15 minutes than ONE gigantic one that is supposed to take hours. I rarely have time for a whole continuous hour at a time and practically never for more than that. I often can run 10-20 minutes need 10-20 minutes to go do something then can play again for a short time. So something like this would drive me nuts as I would want to play it but could not.

[vivarium]

...... dear god no.... if you guys screw up at the beginning hope you die quickly to the orb of annihilation quickly... much preferred the old name for it orb of silvery death and orb of golden death but meh... also roomate is screaming "By Kelemvors sanity WHY!!?" >_>

[Oxarhamar]

I would much rather have a bunch of small adventures that can be done in 5-15 minutes than ONE gigantic one that is supposed to take hours. I rarely have time for a whole continuous hour at a time and practically never for more than that. I often can run 10-20 minutes need 10-20 minutes to go do something then can play again for a short time. So something like this would drive me nuts as I would want to play it but could not.

This

Even thou I generally play 2-3 hours a night doesn't mean my time or my party members time does not get interrupted.

10 5 minute quests is 100 times better than 1 hour long quest.



If a quest is actually an hour long by players on live play time...
Will the XP be worthy of the time investment?
The loot will it be tradeable thus worth gathering more than just for ones self?
Otherwise it will be fun a few times and then die off.

[Oberon_Shrader]

I would like to first say that all the new content announced seems just great! Very much looking forward to it!

But...

I, for one (maybe of many), was looking forward to Anauroch as a continuance of or culmination to the Tyranny of Dragons campaign line. While I note that the Tyranny stuff hasn't been completely abandoned, it sure seems it's been put on the back burner (just 1 free quest coming out soon).

After so much work going into the campaign line and so many quests leading up to it, this is a shame.

It also leads me to wonder where the data suggesting people won't like this content comes from. I remember no survey, no official forum discussion or any other method used to collect this data.

The Player's Council is great, but it amounts to a focus group. The forums are great, but they amount to vocal minorities speaking out very loudly to push their personal agendas.

Good marketing practice will tell you that neither of those is enough to make an informed or correct decision by. In fact, drawing on data from the player base alone is also not enough.

The marketing and production team(s) should be using a broad variety of tools to collect data from within the player base as well as from potential players, whenever possible.

This should be done before making announcements for plans. And, like the class balance data, it should be made available for everyone to see; after all, what's the point of hiding it, unless it doesn't exist or decisions were made arbitrarily in disregard of said data?

That is, not clearly collecting data and then failing to share it sets up mistrust within the player base.

Similarly, announcing content too early and then backpedaling, for whatever reason (be it budgetary, negative feedback or producer vision changes) sets up a lack of confidence within the player base regarding the competence of decision makers and/or the adequacy of decision making processes.

That is, abandoning announced content is a bad idea, because once you announce something, that is tantamount to a promise. To maintain confidence, you have to follow through with promises.

Turbine, please, either give us some more direct method of input or share with us how this data was collected! Give us a detailed survey, please!

[Scrabbler]

For those who don't care for Acute Delirium or other Madness quests - what is your complaint?

Takes over 40 minutes for starting Beholder to finish his drinking sequence.

[fmalfeas]

...... dear god no.... if you guys screw up at the beginning hope you die quickly to the orb of annihilation quickly... much preferred the old name for it orb of silvery death and orb of golden death but meh... also roomate is screaming "By Kelemvors sanity WHY!!?" >_>

Just wait until someone talks them into releasing the mother of all famed dungeons...The Tomb of Horrors. As far as I know, it's not even on the drawing board, and I can already hear the wailing of players. Especially without access to herds of cattle.

[Cetus]

Sev, I am very surprised at the decision to launch more low level (CR26) content. I could have sworn that you guys were done with that phase, and would from now on churn out endgame stuff.

What happened? This is going backwards.

[nibel]

Takes over 40 minutes for starting Beholder to finish his drinking sequence.

On Elite it is a lot faster to purposely fail the drinking game and just fight the five beholders. Also, it is five beholders for MM.

[Aelonwy]

Protest all you want I could care less.

Forum tally will show exactly the feedback the have been given by those on the forum, without a player survey this is the only play feedback the Devs have to base off.


What I care about is what are the Devs basing playing feedback on?

*snip*

Since forum opinion is really only the minority of players that use the forums frequently and the Player's Council is only a minority of players (even if supposedly a wide range of playstyles etc) would it be possible for the dev's to put a question or poll on log-in, so that maybe once a week or once a month you log-in to the game and answer a player opinion question. At least on log-in would make sure that all players see it, and if they have an opinion about it may be motivated to share that opinion.

For example, on log-in:
Yes or No Would you like to see Anauroch in 2015?

or

How would you prioritize cosmetics, with 1 being most important and 5 being least? *1 *2 *3 *4 *5

or

Which class needs updated next (after barbarian)? *Artificier *Druid *Favored Soul (All 3 chosen for only having two enhancement trees.)

or

Which heroic pack would you like to see Epic-ed next? *Shavarath *Vale *Titan *None prefer ALL new content

[Uska]

Just wait until someone talks them into releasing the mother of all famed dungeons...The Tomb of Horrors. As far as I know, it's not even on the drawing board, and I can already hear the wailing of players. Especially without access to herds of cattle.

The temple has the tomb beat in all ways not that I hated the tomb but what truly made it magical was that it was unexpected and that can no longer be said I remember when it came I had no clue and our characters at the game club died in droves and we fought for the chance to be the next to,die

[Uska]

Sev, I am very surprised at the decision to launch more low level (CR26) content. I could have sworn that you guys were done with that phase, and would from now on churn out endgame stuff.

What happened? This is going backwards.

Not for everyone wants end game level stuff

[Uska]

Since forum opinion is really only the minority of players that use the forums frequently and the Player's Council is only a minority of players (even if supposedly a wide range of playstyles etc) would it be possible for the dev's to put a question or poll on log-in, so that maybe once a week or once a month you log-in to the game and answer a player opinion question. At least on log-in would make sure that all players see it, and if they have an opinion about it may be motivated to share that opinion.

For example, on log-in:
Yes or No Would you like to see Anauroch in 2015?

or

How would you prioritize cosmetics, with 1 being most important and 5 being least? *1 *2 *3 *4 *5

or

Which class needs updated next (after barbarian)? *Artificier *Druid *Favored Soul (All 3 chosen for only having two enhancement trees.)

or

Which heroic pack would you like to see Epic-ed next? *Shavarath *Vale *Titan *None prefer ALL new content

Although some might be bothered if they did this it would best way to get a true feel for what people want

[Aelonwy]

Well these are amongst my favourites after 4 years playing this game - The quests I'll happily run again and again and again:

Prove Your Worth {Heroic}
The Legend of Two Toed Tobias {Heroic}
Gwylan's Stand
Tomb of the Shadow Guard
Tomb of the Shadow Knight
The Xorian Cypher
Tomb of the Tormented
Tempest Spine
Relic of a Sovereign Past
Purge the Fallen Shrine
Chains of Flame
PoP

I guess that just shows how different some people's opinions can be, the only one on your list that i look forward to running on each character is Gwylan's Stand. I really hate the Necropolis quests, every single one, but I look forward to Shan-to-Kor, Stormcleave Outpost, Snitch, Partycrashers, Chronoscope, Black Loch, Storm the Beaches, Irestone Inlet, Into the Deep, The Prisoner, both Droaam packs, Madstone Crater, everything but Sinister Storage in the first Madness pack, and everything but the Lord of Eyes in the second, Ritual Sacrifice and Shroud, I Dream of Jeets and the Dreaming Dark (even though i dislike jumping.) I also look forward to most wilderness areas.

Actually looking back over the list the most common thread appears to be quests with an open-air feel to them, or quests with twisted mind-screw storylines.

[Braegan]

Not for everyone wants end game level stuff

End Game stuff is not only what is lacking in the game right now (I.E. we don't need new lowbie quests, there is enough xp to once and done and skip some on the way, this is not true of Epic) but is also what the Devs have said the focus is going to be to work on building an endgame. Cetus has a valid reason for his question.

[Qhualor]

End Game stuff is not only what is lacking in the game right now (I.E. we don't need new lowbie quests, there is enough xp to once and done and skip some on the way, this is not true of Epic) but is also what the Devs have said the focus is going to be to work on building an endgame. Cetus has a valid reason for his question.

this is true, but in order to have an end game Turbine needs to get a grip on what is actually happening that is preventing end game to actually materialize. adding more quests wont make a difference at any level range as long as Turbine doesn't do anything about the thousands of dollars they are losing daily, properly address incentives and properly address casualization. until they get a better handle on these things, there will never be an end game.

[Braegan]

this is true, but in order to have an end game Turbine needs to get a grip on what is actually happening that is preventing end game to actually materialize. adding more quests wont make a difference at any level range as long as Turbine doesn't do anything about the thousands of dollars they are losing daily, properly address incentives and properly address casualization. until they get a better handle on these things, there will never be an end game.

Good points and they need to be addressed while at the same time keeping word and releasing End Game level content. One without the other isn't going to fix the lack of End Game, but going back and not doing one when you said you would doesn't help the case.

[Cetus]

Not for everyone wants end game level stuff

But don't you think that we have enough content in that level range? And, that endgame content suits everybody at some point throughout their gaming path?

If you accept these two statements then I don't see why you wouldn't want endgame content.

[silisav]

10-13 is some of the fastest and easiest exp in the GAME because that's when you run Shadow Crypt and Vault of Night flagging, not to mention Red Fens, Dreams of Insanity, Sands sides, Tempest Spine, the Vault of Night RAID, etc. So this is plain nonsense.

If you do not mind check the comments previous to mine. A lot of people said that it is better to have more quests for lvl 10-12 (I said 10-13) instead of creating another 18 lvl as there are more than enough already. How often do you see people running von on heroic and how many of those times do you have a char at that lvl flagged so that you can run with them?
My point is for a life 3 and further char it is tougher to accumulate xp at that level than after 15 especially after changing the xp curve and I believe that at that levels more quests are needed. However in the end of the day everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[fmalfeas]

My take on 'end game' stuff is that it needs to be done in recognition of the upcoming (eventual) cap at 30. They need to reach a point where the quests can /relatively/ 'plateau' in difficulty by their stories. I don't mean 'never get challenged again' I mean that the big fight in the first quest in a story arc isn't just as hard as the last quest's non-raid fight in the arc against the villain that the first boss is terrified of. If everything is level 28-30 already, they're painting themselves into a corner.

But look closely at what they've done instead in epic content, even including epicfied old stuff.

We've banished a named succubus back to Shavarath after destroying all her works. That's an enemy primed.
We've banished the Demon Queen, banishing the named marilith back to Shavarath. Another, more powerful enemy primed, and they could readily work together to seek vengeance in a later chain.
We've freed the Lord of Blades from Quori control, but in the process, we also bested him in battle, and he's not a humble or forgiving type. So that's more enemies, though fortunately they'll hate each other as well.
What we've done to Shavarath's devil generals certainly has us on a shortlist of targets amongst the Baatezu, and there's no telling when they'll move against us.
We've preserved the remaining fragment of Mystra, and in the process wounded a VERY powerful goddess in her own home. She *will* seek revenge, guaranteed.
We've struck down 2 red Wyrms, and a Shadow Dracolich, both desecrating their 'faith' and setting back the plans of the Cult of the Dragon. That's not going to end peacefully.
We tangled with the Zhentarim, and that never stops with just one encounter.
And now, we go into round 2 with the Black Abbot, and entangle Lady Vol...we're likely tangled up in her plan to conquer and do something to Dolurh...destroy it?

And upcoming, round 2 with the Daelkyr, incarnate gods of madness.
Since Lloth drilled through Eberron's crystal sphere, we appear to be getting more linked to the multiverse, which can be good and bad. (I promise you, if a Mercykiller ever found us, it would attack, even paladin vs paladin, because none of us are sin-free...and fighting a Mercykiller is not pleasant.)

All of these are completely viable leadins for future chains. What I see isn't them failing to create an endgame. I see them building a solid foundation for a new endgame that isn't like most games, where you have a handful of raids, and a couple of zones, until next year's expansion. They're setting the stage for a diverse mix of content, built off the stuff that's come before. They can turn all those unfinished threads into things truly worthy of their story.

After all, wouldn't you say that invading Dolurh, either against or for Lady Vol, should be 100% endgame material? Taking on the Netherese, some of the most powerful wizards in the entire multiverse, in their home turf, AND the Phaerimm, the things that nearly destroyed them once before? The true fury of a multiversal greater deity? Drawing the attention and ire of a bloody multiversal Creator god? (Read: Tiamat).

The lights were up long ago. What I see, somewhat optimistically, I admit, is that now they've set up the camera. Sometime in the relatively near future, I hope we get to hear them call out 'ACTION!'

[droid327]

I just want to chime in with the other anti-Xoriat players. Aside from maybe platform jumpers like The Pit, nothing in the game I detest more than Xoriat missions. The entire premise of Xoriat content is it renders the strengths of your character, that you've spent so long building up, pointless. Beholders that disable half your abilities and disable almost all heals...instakills (either true instakills or just crazy-big alpha strikes) that make the missions far too stochastic; random chance of guaranteed death isn't fun. Puzzles that aren't challenging, just arbitrarily difficult with things like endless respawns. It often seems like the design philosophy is "lets see how many random and pointless hoops we can make them jump through just to be weird". Scaling on Elite that's much harsher than non-Xoriat quests, since Xoriat quests by design are wars of attrition (ie the longer you stay in quest, the higher the odds that something random turns against you and you die)...

Essentially, you're forced to play an entirely different sub-game within the game, one that's much more random than the rest of the game and honestly just not much fun for me.