A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

2. Elimination of raid bypass timers. This will make this stuff last a lot longer.

No. What it will do is make you get the loot faster and you'll be whining for more content faster.


Oh as for end game, I KNOW Turbine can and will put together a new end game scene. What I meant (and in fact said) was that YOU wont be happy with it!

Lets see if Im wrong (I hope I am)

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'm starting to lean toward EE-only loot, if only because thinking about the pre-MotU endgame, a big part of that was epic gear, which of course was only acquirable by running epics. A similar mechanic would have to be EE-only loot. It's simply not endgame if you can get the loot on EN.

So how about two loot tiers: Epic (EC, EN and EH version, all the same) and Mythic (EE version.) Or whatever you want to call them. The non-EE version is what would drop in 20th lists for raids. Meaning to get the really good stuff, it has to drop in a chest, and it has to be run on EE.

As the second part of the plan, raid bypass timers only bypass EN and EH. It won't let you go in on EE until your 66 hours are up, even if you use a bypass. But you can blast though on EN (or EH) using bypasses to farm 20th lists as frequently as you like, keeping in mind that 20th lists drop the weaker tier loot, not the EE loot.

I'm thinking the idea is to blast through the raid a bunch of times using timers to get to 20th lists in order to kit yourself up with the weaker tier loot, then once you're squared away with that you can then start farming the Mythic versions on EE at once per 3 days.

Would something like that be workable?

This is a pretty good concept, however I would repackage the EE loot at Mythic loot and create a new level of difficulty above EE. Cant make the gear more powerful though.. that would kill the point of adding challenge.

[Cetus]

I'm starting to lean toward EE-only loot, if only because thinking about the pre-MotU endgame, a big part of that was epic gear, which of course was only acquirable by running epics. A similar mechanic would have to be EE-only loot. It's simply not endgame if you can get the loot on EN.

So how about two loot tiers: Epic (EC, EN and EH version, all the same) and Mythic (EE version.) Or whatever you want to call them. The non-EE version is what would drop in 20th lists for raids. Meaning to get the really good stuff, it has to drop in a chest, and it has to be run on EE.

As the second part of the plan, raid bypass timers only bypass EN and EH. It won't let you go in on EE until your 66 hours are up, even if you use a bypass. But you can blast though on EN (or EH) using bypasses to farm 20th lists as frequently as you like, keeping in mind that 20th lists drop the weaker tier loot, not the EE loot.

I'm thinking the idea is to blast through the raid a bunch of times using timers to get to 20th lists in order to kit yourself up with the weaker tier loot, then once you're squared away with that you can then start farming the Mythic versions on EE at once per 3 days.

Would something like that be workable?

Great post! I'm totally for this.

No. What it will do is make you get the loot faster and you'll be whining for more content faster.


Oh as for end game, I KNOW Turbine can and will put together a new end game scene. What I meant (and in fact said) was that YOU wont be happy with it!

Lets see if Im wrong (I hope I am)

How does, what you just wrote, make any sense?

Removing the bypasses and implementing a 16 hour timer for huge quests like ToEE will make me get loot faster?

The whole point of the suggestion is to extend the content by preventing us from roflstomping content on normal.

Like I said, the write up by EllisDee makes me completely happy.

[Oxarhamar]

This is a pretty good concept, however I would repackage the EE loot at Mythic loot and create a new level of difficulty above EE. Cant make the gear more powerful though.. that would kill the point of adding challenge.

Not having a higher reward whould also kill the point of the challenge.

Challenge with no reward is not going to satisfy the player base either.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

IMO, this is mostly because DDO is no longer an alt-haven like it was when the cap was 20.

Before, even a first life character could be amazing at high-end epic quests. The number requirements were not too high, and we really benefitted from a diverse group formation, to the point that almost everyone had a handful of alts to "cover gaps" if needed: A cc-wiz alt, a rogue alt, a healer alt, a tank alt, etc. You had to gear all those characters, and most gear or ingredients were either unbound or BtA. So you could bring your healer to play an eVoN and pass down the SoS shard you looted to your DPS barbarian, or get your CC wiz into TTT and pass the Midnight Greetings shard to your rogue. The game allowed everyone to play with any character they might have and reap their rewards account-wide, with very few exceptions (once you crafted an epic item is was bound, the few BtC items out there, etc).

Since MotU and the introduction of Epic Destinies, only people with A TON of free time can reasonably have alts and expect to run high-end content. This have the tendency for most people to have one single uber character, with all past lifes (since they are focusing in a single character, why not?^), all btc gear, only have to craft one or two items of the crafting systems (TF weapons, shadow armors, dragon armors, etc)... and the system is still designed with the underling thinking that we have ten alts to spread the love.

That is why so many people now get to the new quests, farm them to the death, and asks for more. Because they are not playing to challenge themselves. They are playing for the loot (and there is NOTHING wrong with playing for the loot), and once they have the loot, they get bored.We have plenty of challenging content out there, people just don't run them. Cannith Challenges are still hard to six-star most of them. Titan still requires a ton of coordination and is a raid where raw power is meaningless. Ditto for Abbot. And all failing, there is always self-gimping for challenge (build a flavor character, never access your TR chace, build a new character in a new server, etc).

There is no question thats part of it, but the game was created this way on purpose. If you chose to drive the TR train, you have dedicated yourself to that toon. Thats the way it should be. The TR system was a grinding mechanism to put in to keep people playing. Period. I agree the Cannith challenges are challenging, so there is opportunity there to revisit some gear and make people want to run that content. Put a carrot there, people will run it. Epic Destinies does a great job adding power to all kinds of builds that were sitting in mothballs. I have a ton of alts since I love to character build. So there's two sides to that coin.

I dont have nearly the time I used to play... yet Im enjoying all parts of the game (Ok korthos is not my cup of tea, yet others love the area). And thats where I think we have the divide. The game is in a great place for casual players right now. All levels of challenge for them to enjoy. For players like me, if ALL I played was end game, Id have quit this game long ago. So yes, I like and want to see a quality end game.

If Turbine can find a way to offer levels of challenge for us long time players ('05 here) without removing currently available difficulty settings for newer/casual/majority of the DDO playerbase, then I think we'll be sitting pretty. This is why Id like to see a new difficulty setting -- so we can turn the knob to 11 in as many quests as we can, satisfying the greatest number of players, without taking away the feel of the game for those at all player skill levels and playstyles.

[Hendrik]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

With all due respect, you have no idea how much the feedback from the PC and ML has saved the community from disaster.

No, player feedback is vital to the design process.

[Hendrik]

Pretty certain I haven't seen a single post in this thread complaining about getting ToEE.

On the contrary - Despite the multiple posts about how Xorian is awful and who the heck did the Devs ask? ToEE has been pretty well received!

Second page.

[EllisDee37]

Like I said, the write up by EllisDee makes me completely happy.

Oddly, the more I think about it the more I like it. I say "oddly" because I've always been against tiered loot, though not strongly enough to go to the wall on it.

What changed my mind was writing the post in this thread about how we used to have an endgame before MotU. It made me stop and think about what exactly made it endgame, and how it worked. The real key to that system was epic gear, which of course could only be acquired by running (lots and lots of) epic quests and raids. I see now that getting the best loot on EN is anathema to the concept of endgame.

Just to clarify, what I wrote was really just restating your idea. My only contribution was to come up with a way that Turbine could still make money with bypasses while not allowing them to short-circuit endgame. Which I agree with you about; bypasses are also an endgame killer.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

With all due respect, you have no idea how much the feedback from the PC and ML has saved the community from disaster.

No, player feedback is vital to the design process.

I agree totally. PC + ML + focused forum community threads (whether dev/moderator created, or created by anyone in our forum community) were, are and always will be integral to the heartbeat of this game. Thanks for all the work from the ML and PC peoples for all ya'll have done for DDO.

[MeliCat]

With all due respect, you have no idea how much the feedback from the PC and ML has saved the community from disaster.

No, player feedback is vital to the design process.

LOL. Oh my, yes. Far out. That's not to say that developers don't ultimately make up their own minds and that might run totally counter to ours in the end. I see focus groups like Lamm and the PC as a chance to throw up things that they may not have thought of ... and occasionally there are some doozies or some good ideas. Although often what is presented is pretty comprehensive. The developers are not at all stupid even if they are not omniscient.

[SilkofDrasnia]

There is no question thats part of it, but the game was created this way on purpose. If you chose to drive the TR train, you have dedicated yourself to that toon. Thats the way it should be. The TR system was a grinding mechanism to put in to keep people playing. Period. I agree the Cannith challenges are challenging, so there is opportunity there to revisit some gear and make people want to run that content. Put a carrot there, people will run it. Epic Destinies does a great job adding power to all kinds of builds that were sitting in mothballs. I have a ton of alts since I love to character build. So there's two sides to that coin.

I dont have nearly the time I used to play... yet Im enjoying all parts of the game (Ok korthos is not my cup of tea, yet others love the area). And thats where I think we have the divide. The game is in a great place for casual players right now. All levels of challenge for them to enjoy. For players like me, if ALL I played was end game, Id have quit this game long ago. So yes, I like and want to see a quality end game.

If Turbine can find a way to offer levels of challenge for us long time players ('05 here) without removing currently available difficulty settings for newer/casual/majority of the DDO playerbase, then I think we'll be sitting pretty. This is why Id like to see a new difficulty setting -- so we can turn the knob to 11 in as many quests as we can, satisfying the greatest number of players, without taking away the feel of the game for those at all player skill levels and playstyles.

We had a good endgame back when we had epics with no difficulty choice (n/h/e) and it wasn't because gear was tiered but because it was bloody long (compared to now) to get the named item/shard/seal/scroll. We had a good endgame because raids were on a 3 day timer and epic on a 16hr timer.

Then we had what I call the shade revolution and all that was killed off with epics n/h/e and was further killed or pushed away with the great casual vs hardcore challenge debate, guess what the casuals won because money talks.

As much as it might be interesting to go back it will not happen because...money talks. Just look at the recent changes they are doing to classes and all the power creep they have added via epic destinies and the new gear...lol I do not know how anyone can think they really about endgame challenge.

Sad thing is this isn't limited to DDO take most any other mmo out there and they cater to casuals...hell look at Wildstar the game caters to endgame and challenge and look how badly that is going.

Dunno but I think it's better to stop fighting a lost cause and walk looking forwards into the future instead of looking backwards.

Humpty Dumpty is broke......

[IronClan]

Personally, I think players should be completely excluded from the decision process because they're horrible at designing anything. Player feedback was listened to entirely too much during the bard and pally reboots, and it has created such a mess that it's completely changed the game DDO is within just two updates.

Absolutely horrible.

This is just your failure to see the big picture, you can't see the forest for the trees. They are going through the classes from weakest to strongest according to their polling results, this necessarily means that the weakest get the most buffing otherwise when they tweak the stronger classes that are in the middle or closer to the top, the weak classes wont have been buffed enough to keep up.

Personally I love the new Bard and Paladin... it's great being a viable part of a group using a class that people used to have to apologize for.

I however am not fooled into believing last months Flavor is suddenly terrible. I have a Centered Kensei eSoS build that is comparable DPS (maybe a tad bit lower, but not for long I suspect) to either of those yet is more survivable than either (25% incorporeal 28% dodge is better than any AC, and now new more effective PRR and some MRR on top even in Pajamas i got more durable than a Heavy armored Paladin without a shield is, I know this from first hand experience). I also have a Staff build that is actually higher DPS (probably best weaponized non wolf melee DPS in the game right now if you know what you're doing when you build it) than those two and the same survivability as the Centered Kensei.

So the top is still arguably at or near the top, and they are raising the floor one step at a time. The Top has been buffed a little as a unavoidable side effect of LOW value PRR and MRR increases while they were already ahead on mitigation, and AC still being not worth the investment. If they didn't make Swash and Paladin comparable to the top DPS then "halo effect" buffs to non monk classes like Fighter that will buff a Centered Kensei would be IMPOSSIBLE. if you improve Fighter you improve Monk+Fighter, if you improve Ranger you potentially improve Wolf builds and Monkchers. If you improve Rogue you potentially improve any Top Flavor of the month build that uses a couple rogue levels...

So you see it all makes sense with a little perspective doesn't it?

[FranOhmsford]

Then we had what I call the shade revolution and all that was killed off with epics n/h/e and was further killed or pushed away with the great casual vs hardcore challenge debate, guess what the casuals won because money talks.

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

[Oxarhamar]

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

With the death of Tiered loot and EN rewarding the best items in the game (save a few old ones that haven't been outclasses yet)

yeah Casuals have no reason to be behind. The same power is available to anyone on Epic Normal.

[Grosbeak07]

With the death of Tiered loot and EN rewarding the best items in the game (save a few old ones that haven't been outclasses yet)

yeah Casuals have no reason to be behind. The same power is available to anyone on Epic Normal.

Casual's don't grind like power gamers.

I see some players complain that Haunted Hall's loot is too easy to get, yet I've yet to see a single named item in any of my runs.

I run the quest maybe 1-3 times per week. If I was to run the quest 10x per day, sure I'd eventually get all the loot faster, but that's not how casual's play.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

LoL

What game are you playing?

Roll a first life char run to lvl 28 level up a few destinies for fate point and a few choice twists, pretty much any decent random loot ~ win

If that is not casual enough for you well ..I dunno what to tell you.

[IronClan]

Despite the multiple posts about how Xorian is awful and who the heck did the Devs ask? ToEE has been pretty well received!

And really who gives a flip about anyone that doesn't like new Xoriat quests, they obviously have simplistic tastes and should be ignored.

[Oxarhamar]

Casual's don't grind like power gamers.

I see some players complain that Haunted Hall's loot is too easy to get, yet I've yet to see a single named item in any of my runs.

I run the quest maybe 1-3 times per week. If I was to run the quest 10x per day, sure I'd eventually get all the loot faster, but that's not how casual's play.

Your probably doing a decent job but, are you soloing or running in a group? Groups are better of course for more loot chances per chest.

Considering chest ransack if you run it 10 times a day you'd strip the chest and not be able to run it again for a week.

I don't farm for anything but, I'm not that type of player that must have an item. If I want an item I add the quest it comes from into my TR/ETR pattern and get it when I get it. TR/ETR is more important to me.

still that's nieghter here nor there, the point stands there is no difficulty barrier casuals and power gamers have the same amount of power available to them with no tiered loot.

[FranOhmsford]

LoL

What game are you playing?

Roll a first life char run to lvl 28 level up a few destinies for fate point and a few choice twists, pretty much any decent random loot ~ win

If that is not casual enough for you well ..I dunno what to tell you.

No player I've ever seen in 4 years playing this game who's levelled that fast could in any way be considered "Casual"!

And simply getting to 28 will only level 2 {maybe 3 destinies} - On Most characters this actually means NO COCOON!

Levelling to 28 itself will take a "Casual" MONTHS!
E-TRing to complete destinies adds weeks possibly months on to this time!
And you ignore 2nd and 3rd Life too!

And gear:

1) Most Random Loot in Epics is Vendor Trash! OR double-up {Having 3 items with +5, +6 and +7 Str on them is utterly pointless but that's what people who rely on Random Loot end up with!

2) Named Loot requires a certain amount of Grind - If levelling fast you'll get very little actual named loot that's useful for YOUR character.

3) Augments are P2W - P2W despite what some people seem to believe suits Power Gamers far more than Casuals!

4) Levelling fast you'll pick up plat at a steady rate but by 28 you'll still have less than 1 million unless you've been playing the AH.
And you can forget AS unless you're willing to P2W!
1 Million Plat won't get you much these days - And if you've been filling up on Pots, Scrolls and Wands as you level that number will be much lower!


ACTUAL Casuals do ask for DDO to be made easier BUT what the Devs have given us over the past 2 years has catered almost exclusively to Power Gamers.
Ghostbane being a notable EXCEPTION that was aimed at Newbies after the Devs read some exit surveys rather than at "Casuals"

Newbie, Casual, Power-Gamer, Hardcore and many other designators AREN'T mutually exclusive.
A Hardcore Gamer may only play DDO once a Month!
A Casual Gamer may play DDO every day!
Which one of these has more use for P2W?
It's NOT the Casual:
The Casual doesn't need 1 Heroic and 3 Epic Otto's Boxes to bypass the levelling process so they can get straight into the End-Game!
The Casual doesn't need to throw money at getting Augments or Raid Timers so she can gear up as fast as possible!

What the Casual DOES need however is people to play with at the level that Casual is capable at and with BB, Timer Bypasses and Destinies the number of people willing to run anything other than Elite has not so much dwindled as CRASHED & BURNED!

Go ahead - Tell the Casual he/she HAS to solo the lower difficulties in a game based on Dungeons & Dragons {Possibly the most Teamwork oriented hobby ever invented!} AND in a Massively Multiplayer Online RPG!
See that Casual RUN from the game!

[apacheizm23]

The Casuals won?

Really?

What Casuals were these exactly?

Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!

The Power Gamers won that argument NOT The So Called Casuals!

What is a power gamer??? Explain that to me?

I know of just the people who play the game, and than those that want the game and all its rewards handed to them easy and quickly. That's basically it. On another note, I don't blame the developers of these games for putting a price tag on getting what ya want in a game, for the most part that is. They gotta make money that's just the way it is. I been saying that for a long time Its about the $$$$$$ And it will always be about the $$$$$.

Oh and for you're post saying "Casuals now are so much further away from EVER being maxed out than back then it's simply unbelievable!" That's cause the "Casuals" got game developers to help them come along more quickly in these games that its only made what you call "Power Gamers" gaming even easier.

I for one think the game has made huge strides and is so much better than ever before, but at the same time it is a bit too easy and with that, it becomes monotonous for players like myself who have been playing a long time. But I understand that Turbine has to try and make a lot of folks with different strokes happy, cause its about the Benjamins kidd!

By the way I'm no what you called "Power Gamer" I just love the game and enjoy playing it. And I still learn something new every now and than