A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[Oxarhamar]

The Devs have pushed out 8 Epic Levels basically in one go!

They didn't even get 20-25 sorted with enough quests before adding in 26-28!

Give them time!



No it's not - E-3BC is Base Lvl 25 {27 on EE!}



The Devs seem to be only able to give us 4-5 quests per update atm - This isn't great ESPECIALLY when there's multiple levels that need boosting.
BUT
Again - Give them time!



The Xorian Quests will be base Lvl 26 on Epic {28 on EE!} - Again NOT mid-level by any stretch of the imagination!



This I actually agree with - There's absolutely NO POINT pushing out Lvls 29 and 30 BEFORE we have at least 4 more Updates to fill in Lvls 27-30!

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests that could not be entered until a Charicter was at Cap.

[FranOhmsford]

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests.

Did I say it was End-Game?

Well actually it sort of is atm BUT it won't be when we actually get Lvl 29-30 come out.


Lvl 18 Heroic Quests WERE End-Game for a while too - Some of them were still End-Game just prior to MoTU {IQ1}.
It took the Devs a while to populate Lvl 20 with Epic Quests and it will take them a while to populate Lvl 30 too!

What I actually SAID was that those quests are NOT NOW {and probably never will be!} considered Mid-Level!



Remember that those quests are Lvl 27 on Elite {Only one level below the current cap!} - They may not be strictly End-game BUT they are most certainly NOT Mid-Level!

[SilkofDrasnia]

Exactly. Since I'm the one voicing the opinion, it is junk to me. Thank you for your insight.

Interestingly, those folks who like to level have a huge amount of content at their disposal. Endgame players have to constantly operate on the very margins of what is available to them; chiefly as a result of these crappy decisions. Look, we're getting 1 CR30 quest until U25. Its funny how you get surprised that this generates complaint.

"What, you aren't happy with 1 endgame quest! What's wrong with you!".

Just as how you ask me to be cognizant of those people who enjoy mid-level content, you are awfully intolerant of those who are unhappy with the continuous insertion of mid-level stuff at the expense of an expanding endgame.

Hogwash, I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, you however seem to have a problem with this if people are not of the same opinion as you. You voice your opinion so often that people like me that do not live here on these forum tend to know what your opinion is even if we do not care to hear it anymore.

Sad thing is that sometimes I agree with you but the way you go on and on like you think you are some kind of celebrity the devs need approval from gets tiresome.

That said you will just have to live with it if we tell you so at times same as we have to put up with your constant diatribe.

Carry on!

Heh Endgame is tr/etr and has been since they killed off raiding with post level 20 stuff and epic destinies. My bet is we will not see much of what I believe you want as "endgame" until they raise the level cap.

[jalont]

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests that could not be entered until a Charicter was at Cap.

There was clear indicators and differences back then. Do you think endgame now will look the same way? Or do you think it'll just be a quest that's randomly been designated level 30?

[FranOhmsford]

There was clear indicators and differences back then. Do you think endgame now will look the same way? Or do you think it'll just be a quest that's randomly been designated level 30?

Actually IQ1 was still considered End-Game right up till MotU came out!

Amrath was still considered End-Game too!

The Manufactory Quests and MA may be Lvl 19 base but they weren't there for Levelling purposes!


In fact: Any Quest that's at a Base Level higher than the current Elite Level required to reach Cap with BB is almost by definition an End-Game Quest!
So....Prior to MotU EVERY Base Lvl 19 Quest WAS End-Game!
And most Lvl 18 Quests too!

This was a good thing as pre Red-Fens we had 3 Sands Epics, 4 VoN, 4 Carnival and 4 Sentinels + 2 Pre-Raids and 2 Raids!

Hardly a Massive End-Game!

[jalont]

Actually IQ1 was still considered End-Game right up till MotU came out!

Amrath was still considered End-Game too!

The Manufactory Quests and MA may be Lvl 19 base but they weren't there for Levelling purposes!


In fact: Any Quest that's at a Base Level higher than the current Elite Level required to reach Cap with BB is almost by definition an End-Game Quest!
So....Prior to MotU EVERY Base Lvl 19 Quest WAS End-Game!
And most Lvl 18 Quests too!

This was a good thing as pre Red-Fens we had 3 Sands Epics, 4 VoN, 4 Carnival and 4 Sentinels + 2 Pre-Raids and 2 Raids!

Hardly a Massive End-Game!

By who? If it didn't have Epic in front of it, I certainly didn't consider it endgame :P.

[FranOhmsford]

By who? If it didn't have Epic in front of it, I certainly didn't consider it endgame :P.

Well there's your problem.

Predicating something simply on a name!

The Actual True End-Game such as it was Pre-MotU was Shroud, VoD, HoX, ToD, Abbot, E-Chrono, E-Wiz King, E-CoF, E-ADQ and E-VoN!


We do need more High Level Epic Raids BUT E-FoT for example is still End-Game content when run on EE!
When Lvls 29-30 come out FoT and CitW will get relegated to the standard of Pikers Fate at Cap 20 yes....SO....We need Lvl 27-30 Raids to take the place of the likes of Shroud, HoX, VoD and ToD.
We already have Abbot's replacement!

[SilkofDrasnia]

By who? If it didn't have Epic in front of it, I certainly didn't consider it endgame :P.

Endgame to me back when epic was just "epic" was running said epics and raids to get epic gear and the like. It was an endgame that I enjoyed but those days are long past and gone and anyone that thinks they are coming back is sadly mistaken.

Gear is just not difficult or as long a process to get as it used to be not to mention all the changes that make random gear nearly as good. I wont even get into how Epic Destinies make gear so unimportant compared to before, and dare I say it but all the rampant sploits....lets just leave it at that.

[nibel]

EE 3BC is not endgame.

This is the same as saying LVL 18 Herioc quests on Elite lvl 20 were EndGame pre-MOTU when we had actual EPIC Quests that could not be entered until a Charicter was at Cap.

It is not endgame per se, is a endgamer pace-breaker. Just like when the cap was 20 you went to run a few IQ/Refuge quests to relax (because Shavarath was not "relaxing").

[esojiul]

Well there's your problem.

Predicating something simply on a name!

The Actual True End-Game such as it was Pre-MotU was Shroud, VoD, HoX, ToD, Abbot, E-Chrono, E-Wiz King, E-CoF, E-ADQ and E-VoN!


We do need more High Level Epic Raids BUT E-FoT for example is still End-Game content when run on EE!
When Lvls 29-30 come out FoT and CitW will get relegated to the standard of Pikers Fate at Cap 20 yes....SO....We need Lvl 27-30 Raids to take the place of the likes of Shroud, HoX, VoD and ToD.
We already have Abbot's replacement!

The solution is a Mythic Level x all epic quest less 26 on EE. Also be able to upgrade Epic item to Mythic Items. Only one level for Mythic quest are over 30

[Uska]

City of Doors would be the bestamest expansion ever. But man that would cost something huge to get made.

By lore you shouldn't be able to use the city of doors to access eberron and their lame way of connecting it to FR shouldn't have happened either.

[FranOhmsford]

The solution is a Mythic Level x all epic quest less 26 on EE. Also be able to upgrade Epic item to Mythic Items. Only one level for Mythic quest are over 30

I've crusaded for a Mythic Level myself BUT I don't think it should be simply tacked on to every Epic Quest out there.

Some don't even FEEL Epic!

On the other hand - There's plenty of HEROIC Quests and Raids in-game that could get a "Mythic" treatment {Base Lvl 35 - Can't enter unless you're Lvl 30!}:

Misery's Peak
Redwillow's Ruins
Gwylan's Stand
Stormcleave Outpost
Threnal
Hiding in Plain Sight + Restless Isles + Twilight Forge
Invaders
Relic of a Sovereign Past
Made to Order
Mired in Kobolds
The Enemy Within
Xorian Cypher + Dreams of Insanity
Acid Wit
In the Demon's Den
Tempest Spine
Reaver's Refuge
Dreaming Dark
Shavarath

And I'm sure...Many Many More!

[nibel]

I've crusaded for a Mythic Level myself BUT I don't think it should be simply tacked on to every Epic Quest out there.

Some don't even FEEL Epic!

I would even say that MOST current epic quests do not feel epic enough. I consider my "baseline epicness" to be Shavarath, since it involves many tropes of high-level D&D: Planar travel, powerful outsiders, vast armies, alien scenery, etc...

IMO, only the following epic quests are really "epic":

-Vault of Night (the raid, not the series)
-Plane of Night (VoN 6)
-Chains of Flame
-Zawabi's Revenge (DQ1 is not epic enough)
-Devil Assault
-Into the Deep (mostly because of the pit demon, otherwise no)
-Chronoscope (Time Travel)
-Demonweb series, including CitW (Lolth fight is underwhelming, but the quest itself is epic enough)
-What Goes Up (mostly from storyline and the kickass ending scene than the quest itself)
-Temple of the Deathwyrm (The double dragon raid not so much)
-Mark of Death

Everything else has a better place in heroics.

[MalHavoc01]

the release of a Dungeon based on the unforgettable, and amazing Temple of Elemental Evil! tbd in Update 25 at its soonest... this is significant.

As a longtime lurker on the forums, a seriously longtime player of D&D in all its incarnations since late 1977, and of particular interest was the introduction of the town and ruins that intro'd the Temple of Elemental Evil (ToEE) to me and my fellow players through low level to high level retirement bliss (if not early retirement PC RIP!).

This is simply astounding news and I do hope the environs of the Town, its surroundings, and the stumbling entry to the ToEE proper, as well as its higher level challenges, proves to be a satisfactory entry into the DDO edition of gaming history.

Oh! And thank you. Such news is welcome and, if I can say so humbly, quite Overdue! ;-)
Cheers!
-- So many Monsters, and not enough time! (or, "...not enough healing droughts to go around!" as the case may be!)
-- Have at em boyos and gallant ladies!

[Oxarhamar]

Did I say it was End-Game?

Well actually it sort of is atm BUT it won't be when we actually get Lvl 29-30 come out.


Lvl 18 Heroic Quests WERE End-Game for a while too - Some of them were still End-Game just prior to MoTU {IQ1}.
It took the Devs a while to populate Lvl 20 with Epic Quests and it will take them a while to populate Lvl 30 too!

What I actually SAID was that those quests are NOT NOW {and probably never will be!} considered Mid-Level!



Remember that those quests are Lvl 27 on Elite {Only one level below the current cap!} - They may not be strictly End-game BUT they are most certainly NOT Mid-Level!

Those quests are not END GAME

They are MID LEVEL EPICS

The LVL 18 heroics were never END GAME (certainly not IQ1) any Herioc quests Raids run at cap were to farm items mostly for Tomes or TR goodies. If you said TOD I might have given you a slide but, it still was not EPIC the items were LVL 18 TR gear.

[dx8976]

Also: Why yet another Lvl 18 Pack?
We already have more than enough Lvl 17-19 content that doesn't get run!

Even a Legend can hit 20 with ease off Gianthold and Vale these days {Maybe taking in IQ but even that's not seeing the multiple daily LFMs it used to!}.
Once at 20 no-one wants to run Lvl 17-19 quests on Elite as they give less than HALF the XP of an Epic Normal VoN 3/4, Spies or Wiz King!

Another Lvl 16 quest isn't needed either - Lvl 10-12 is where we need new quests!



You're shooting yourselves in the feet by making every new pack both Heroic and Epic with High Level Heroic Versions.

Why would anyone run EE when they can get the Favour from HE? {This is also a problem with low level Heroic versions of Epic Quests but at least they don't come so close together and you might get a few people running both Heroic and Epic versions!}.

What's the point of running HE after that first Favour run when you can get 3 x or more the XP from Epic Normal {which we can now enter at Lvl 20!}.
What's the point of running HN or HH at all?
At least with a low level quest you've got the Newbies who might make use of the HH or HN difficulties.


Finally: You're looking at this Heroic/Epic Dual-Pack system the wrong way round - You're making Epic versions first and reducing for High Level Heroic versions.
This means that NONE of the Heroic quests added since Beyond the Rift has felt {lore and role-play wise} like a High Level Quest!
NOT ONE!

Eveningstar, The High Road, Wheloon, The Stormhorns - Every single one of these could easily have been placed between Lvl 7 and Lvl 12!

As for your Epic only Quests:
Study in Sable - Great Quest though it is could easily have been placed at Lvl 9 {Same as Shadow Crypt!}.
Schindylrynn - Lvl 10-12
The Demonweb - Lvl 17-19 {This is the closest but even then the quests are so short that it doesn't quite work.}

These don't FEEL Epic!

I haven't yet run Brothers of the Forge.


And for E-GH, E-3BC and E-Orchard:

E-GH - Standard upgrade for the quests {pity about Tor} and a Raid that was almost universally acclaimed - The Epic Explorer Zone though is terrible!
E-3BC was done pretty well {though I'm not enamoured with the Airships}
E-Orchard is a Mess!

Yep, 16-19 is oversatured. Put more spice earlier in the road.



I have been talking since MotU was released that almost every quest in FR can be 20 levels lower and still fit perfectly within their lore (with the exception of Demonweb) and equivalent DDO quests. King's Forest chain? Equivalent to Khortos. Schildylryn chain? equivalent to STK. Druid's Deep? only animals and plant creatures as opponents. Easy level 6-ish. High Road? Sharn Syndicate equivalent. Heck, Vault of Night (a level TEN raid) feels more "epic" that both Thunderholme raids.

But we all know why those quests are not on level 10-15 range. It is because of Iconics.

Agreed.
Very difficult to keep suspension of disbelief when we can beat a dragon, become much stronger, and then be destroyed by rats...
I don't know how difficult it would be to move quests around, but putting them in their appropriate levels like suggested by the others would go a long way in improving game immersion.
Epics should feel epic. Giving a trash mob inflated hps is not epic.

[Oxarhamar]

There was clear indicators and differences back then. Do you think endgame now will look the same way? Or do you think it'll just be a quest that's randomly been designated level 30?

I do hope there is a clearly separated END GAME when Cap hits 30 something that can only be done at cap.

[Cetus]

Hogwash, I have no problem with people voicing their opinions, you however seem to have a problem with this if people are not of the same opinion as you. You voice your opinion so often that people like me that do not live here on these forum tend to know what your opinion is even if we do not care to hear it anymore.

Sad thing is that sometimes I agree with you but the way you go on and on like you think you are some kind of celebrity the devs need approval from gets tiresome.

That said you will just have to live with it if we tell you so at times same as we have to put up with your constant diatribe.

Carry on!

Heh Endgame is tr/etr and has been since they killed off raiding with post level 20 stuff and epic destinies. My bet is we will not see much of what I believe you want as "endgame" until they raise the level cap.

Ever heard of the block feature? Otherwise, you enjoy or are at most indifferent about my feedback.

[amylee4000]

Well done Turbine, with this, you remove all my fears about the end of license of D&D for 2015. and the end of DDO. Really excited... Haunted Hall of Evenistar was the correct way in my opinión, bringing old modules to old roleplayers is the best way to keep them.
A hint: A remember in my early days of D&D, with Tharsys in the Greyhawk setting, with the party and defeat Zuggtmoy, we reach the Free city of Greyahawk, we take a expedition to the Ruins of the Ruins of the Castle Greyhawk,... inside them, in the deep of the castle I remember, we found a magic mirror (some portal) who leads to the Forgotten Realms.
Cannot tell right now, where exactly the área in the FR. Greyhawk cannon: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/index.php
So that is: (Greyhawk: Ruins of the castle Greyhawk- leading to FR. FR:Eveningstar-Nearest cavern lead to the Spinner Prision who lead to Stormreach-Eberron. All the three worlds connected.

[SilkofDrasnia]

Ever heard of the block feature? Otherwise, you enjoy or are at most indifferent about my feedback.

Thing is when I feel it is necessary to voice my opinion to bring a counter point to your unending input, so the devs do not forget your not the only one playing this game, I wouldn't be able to if you were blocked, please feel free to follow your own advice though.