A sneak peek at Update 24’s dungeons … and beyond

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition...

This is EXACTLY what I thought you meant. See this is why the forums, as awesome as this community still is, is very difficult for developers to navigate and extrapolate useful information in a timely fashion. This is where the Player Council and forum mods play integral roles, to both help interpret many different members opinions of the community, and to present it to the developers so they can do what they do best, develop the best game possible for us.

Said another way, people play for a variety of reasons, and in a variety of different ways, with different time frames and entirely different goals. Some people enjoy the journey, in addition to the endgame. Others prefer mainly the endgame. Within these avenues, there's many different levels of grey. So to me, the entire game needs to be satisfying enough to succeed in satisfying as much as the playerbase as they can.

Id love to see more challange across all levels, however it should never be in spite of our casual players, or low/mid level content. I believe Turbine is doing what's best for the game, and what they are planning here can be very very good for the game.

What does that even mean? .....

Havent seen a single sided coin before? It means that there's more sides than Cetus' side. The game needs to satisfy more than Cetus' playstyle and desires. I'm with you with the need for more challenge, but why throw Turbine's hard work, and the majority of the DDO playerbase under the bus by comments like you made above?

[EllisDee37]

Quite the opposite actually!

So you ARE arguing that the new content should be heroic-only, with no epic version? Because that's what "the opposite" of what you quoted would mean.

[EllisDee37]

Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.

Attack On Stormreach is excellent content, and was mid-level when it was created.

Harbinger of Madness is also pretty solid. Good production value, and the final quest has some of that challenge you crave so much.

Did Red Fens count as mid-level? If new level 26 epic content now is mid-level, then I think Red Fens qualified as mid-level back in the day. Red Fens is quality content.

If Red Fens counts as mid-level by virtue of being part of the easy epics back in the day, so too should Phiarlan Carnival. Which is another solid pack.

[FranOhmsford]

So you ARE arguing that the new content should be heroic-only, with no epic version? Because that's what "the opposite" of what you quoted would mean.

Please Re-read the post you replied to - Here it is:

Fran has never argued that the level 18/16/whatever it ends up being heroic content shouldn't also be having the epic versions they are already planned to have.

Quite the opposite actually!

Lvl 18 Heroic versions of Lvl 26 Epic Quests is quite frankly silly - It didn't work with Stormhorns or High Road - It won't work with Xoriat!

What it does is:
1) splits up the number of people willing to run EITHER!
2) Makes anything less than Heroic Elite utterly pointless {and HE only worth it to get your favour!}.
3) Reduces the requirement to run Epic Elite {You can get your Favour on Heroic!}.

Now a Lower Level Heroic version would still suffer from these issues BUT not so much!

Because:
1) Take VoN for example - This gets run at BOTH Epic and Heroic for a Reason!
2) Look at Sentinels - Pre Saga and Post MotU this hardly ever got run on EITHER Epic or Heroic
3) High Level Heroic Quests suffer heavily from Loot being less than Greensteel anyway AND utterly outmoded the instant you hit Lvl 20!

Now they could make a Heroic Xoriat Saga with the 3 Chains + Delirium {a total of 13 Quests} BUT that would make the Epic version of the new Xoriat Pack even LESS worth running {When the Heroic Version is so much easier and gives a massive Saga Bonus!}.

There is nothing in there that says the New Content should be Heroic only!

In fact I've blatantly stated on more than one occasion that the New Xoriat Pack should be EPIC ONLY!

[EllisDee37]

Please Re-read the post you replied to - Here it is:




There is nothing in there that says the New Content should be Heroic only!

Yeah, no kidding. That's what I said. You then quoted me and said "Quite the opposite, actually!" for no apparent reason.

Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote to understand it better. If the negatives are confusing, it can be re-written as "Fran thinks the new content should have epic versions."

To which you replied: "Quite the opposite!"

[FranOhmsford]

I have to question this. You are saying you can do this without significant repeating?

You've mentioned in the past that people are capping legend toons just running Gianthold. What are they doing, repeating it 37 times?

In the past {I assume you're talking about other threads here?} I've stated that it's POSSIBLE to cap20 legends just from Gianthold Saga runs!

That is NOT the same as stating that everyone is doing this!

My level 17 toon is contemplating whether to finish out running Eveningstar stuff or do his leveling in Eberron. I would expect running Vale quests will get me up to level 18. I'm still going to have to run some higher level stuff somewhere to get to cap, unless i repeat the vale quests, which i won't because i don't actually like them much.

And when did you start running GH?

12?
13?
14?
15?

Remember that you're already Soft Capped 16 before you even get to GH:
Running GH at 15 will get you to 16 soft capping 17
Running Orchard at 16 will get you to 17 soft capping 18
Running Litany/Vale will get you a 3rd of the way into 19.
And LoD/Servants/Spinner/Rift will basically leave you with the choice between running a couple of Vale Slayer Clearances {Maybe a Battlefield Clearance for variety} OR running IQ.

I agree there is enough higher level content that you can level up to cap either in Eberron or Forgotten Realms, but i don't see how you cap without doing higher level quests in either place.

See above.

[FranOhmsford]

Yeah, no kidding. That's what I said. You then quoted me and said "Quite the opposite, actually!" for no apparent reason.

Perhaps you might re-read what I wrote to understand it better.

I really don't know why we're having this argument!

I was NOT saying quite the opposite of YOU but quite the opposite of what you were saying said other poster had said I said {My Lord that's convoluted!}

I have NOT said that the new Xoriat Pack should be Heroic Only
QUITE THE OPPOSITE:
I HAVE Stated that said content should be EPIC ONLY!

[EllisDee37]

I really don't know why we're having this argument as you stated:

I was NOT saying quite the opposite of YOU but quite the opposite of what you were saying said other poster had said I said {My Lord that's convoluted!}

I have NOT said that the new Xoriat Pack should be Heroic Only
QUITE THE OPPOSITE:
I HAVE Stated that said content should be EPIC ONLY!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it.

You should have quoted him, then, not me. Because you said "Quite the Opposite" to MY post, not his.

[FranOhmsford]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. Now I get it.

You should have quoted him, then, not me. Because you said "Quite the Opposite" to MY post, not his.

Aaaaargggh! {The Pedantry!}


You were the one who posted that so it was YOU I replied to!

You put what he said into those words - I just corrected your summary!

[Oxarhamar]

Taking my points out of context here!

The poster I was replying to stated that there isn't enough content to go from 20-28 once and done - He may be right about that but I doubt it as I'm pretty certain he's ignoring the insane amount of XP available in Epic Slayers!

He's also ignoring the Lvl 17-19 Quests - We all know why these don't get run by Epic Characters BUT they do still count when talking about XP available to Epic Characters!

IF you're going to ignore certain quests than you cannot state that there isn't enough XP available!

Your the one going out of context in the post I quoted.

The poster you quoted was specifically speaking of Epic content.

High level Heroic quests are not Epics. Can they be run by low level epic charicters yes but, one is not the same as the other.

[Oxarhamar]

On Elite a Lvl 18 Quest is Lvl 20
On Elite a Lvl 19 Quest is Lvl 21
This means that you get FULL XP even as a Lvl 28!
HoX gives FULL XP on Elite even with 28s in the group so long as you don't have a Power-Levelling Penalty!

CoVs and Heart Seeds are a different matter not pertaining to this question:
Lvl 18 Quests are available for FULL XP + BB to any Lvl 20 Character!
Lvl 19 Quests are available for FULL XP + BB to any Lvl 20 or 21 Character!
It's quite easy to hit Lvl 22 without running a SINGLE Epic Quest!

CoV & Heart Seeds are absolutely pertinent

these are not Epic Quests and don not get accounted into having enough EPIC content.

LVL 18 & 19 quests are not Epic.
They do not provide Epic LVL XP.
They do not provide Epic rewards.

no amount of stretching will change this.

Hey, Even LVL 17 quest can be run by a LVL 20 Epic Charicter with no XP Penalty, next you'll suggest running those for Epic XP as well.

[FranOhmsford]

CoV & Heart Seeds are absolutely pertinent

these are not Epic Quests and don not get accounted into having enough EPIC content.

LVL 18 & 19 quests are not Epic.
They do not provide Epic LVL XP.
They do not provide Epic rewards.

no amount of stretching will change this.

Hey, Even LVL 17 quest can be run by a LVL 20 Epic Charicter with no XP Penalty, next you'll suggest running those for Epic XP as well.

CoVs and Heart Seeds are NOT pertinent to the conversation!

Because: The conversation was specifically about XP and being able to Once and Done to 28!

NOT about getting enough CoVs to TR!

And no amount of "stretching" will make CoVs or Heart Seeds anything to do with XP!


We DON'T start this game at Lvl 20 ONLY able to run Epic Quests!
We DON'T get to Lvl 20 having completed EVERY lvl 1-20 quest {Unless we've specifically been Hard Capping our way there and NOT levelling until EVERY quest of the level we're at is done - I'm sure someone's done that but that person is NOT the standard!}.
We DON'T only count the XP in EH 1st time Bonus when talking about the XP available in game to once and done to 28! {Even though the Devs specifically stated that running EH should provide that XP}.

Let's not even get into how much XP is available from the Monster Manual - It's NOT a trivial amount!


The majority of 3rd + lifers I'm sure do NOT take levels as soon as they're able to!
A good proportion of 3rd + lifers {whether they're once and doners like me OR High XP Quest Farmers} will be Soft Capping as early as Lvl 8!
And they will continue to soft cap right up to 20!

Even now it's highly unlikely you'll see too many people who aren't total newbies take 19 before they're ready to take 20!

So hitting 20 from Lvl 16 Quests is NOT a rarity!


Ignoring completely the 44 level 17-20 Quests when talking about once and donning to 28 is just plain wrong! {Yes there is extra XP in those 17s BUT I purposefully ignored them as I knew because they don't count for BB at 20 I'd be attacked for counting them!}.



Of course the ignoring of these Quests has caused an imbalance in the game where Newbies are hitting 20 and suddenly expected to go straight from Vale Flagging to Epics!
There is a HUGE difference between Vale Flagging and Epics!

You can say that those Newbies should be running RR, Heroic Druid's or High Road, IQ or Amrath all you like BUT who are they supposed to run those quests with?
Even on Normal these are quests that have a very good chance of failure without Knowledgeable Players in group!

These are also NOT popular Packs - Unlike VoN or Carnival or Sands or even Sentinels or Fens!


P.S. If you're E-TRing this life then you could do a lot worse than clear your backlog of 17-19 Quests so as to get to 22 without touching Epics!

[Oxarhamar]

CoVs and Heart Seeds are NOT pertinent to the conversation!

Because: The conversation was specifically about XP and being able to Once and Done to 28!

NOT about getting enough CoVs to TR!

And no amount of "stretching" will make CoVs or Heart Seeds anything to do with XP!


We DON'T start this game at Lvl 20 ONLY able to run Epic Quests!
We DON'T get to Lvl 20 having completed EVERY lvl 1-20 quest {Unless we've specifically been Hard Capping our way there and NOT levelling until EVERY quest of the level we're at is done - I'm sure someone's done that but that person is NOT the standard!}.
We DON'T only count the XP in EH 1st time Bonus when talking about the XP available in game to once and done to 28! {Even though the Devs specifically stated that running EH should provide that XP}.

Let's not even get into how much XP is available from the Monster Manual - It's NOT a trivial amount!


The majority of 3rd + lifers I'm sure do NOT take levels as soon as they're able to!
A good proportion of 3rd + lifers {whether they're once and doners like me OR High XP Quest Farmers} will be Soft Capping as early as Lvl 8!
And they will continue to soft cap right up to 20!

Even now it's highly unlikely you'll see too many people who aren't total newbies take 19 before they're ready to take 20!

So hitting 20 from Lvl 16 Quests is NOT a rarity!


Ignoring completely the 44 level 17-20 Quests when talking about once and donning to 28 is just plain wrong! {Yes there is extra XP in those 17s BUT I purposefully ignored them as I knew because they don't count for BB at 20 I'd be attacked for counting them!}.



Of course the ignoring of these Quests has caused an imbalance in the game where Newbies are hitting 20 and suddenly expected to go straight from Vale Flagging to Epics!
There is a HUGE difference between Vale Flagging and Epics!

You can say that those Newbies should be running RR, Heroic Druid's or High Road, IQ or Amrath all you like BUT who are they supposed to run those quests with?
Even on Normal these are quests that have a very good chance of failure without Knowledgeable Players in group!

These are also NOT popular Packs - Unlike VoN or Carnival or Sands or even Sentinels or Fens!


P.S. If you're E-TRing this life then you could do a lot worse than clear your backlog of 17-19 Quests so as to get to 22 without touching Epics!

Herioc content is not Epic Content.

PS. If your ETRing this life you could flag up your sagas and start beyond LVL 22.

[esojiul]

good idea

[Uska]

Come to grips? What does that even mean? I have an opinion and I'm voicing it. Midlevel content is junk by its very definition, given massive historical precedent.

Yes that is your opinion mine is epic d&d of any kind including ddo is a bad idea and boring thst is my opinion and I expect no one to share it

[Uska]

It's only junk to YOU and other like minded individuals. There are plenty of people that like to level and dislike endgame, there are some that like low level content mid level content etc etc.

I highly doubt the masses play "like you do or enjoy all the same things you do" and I think that's some peoples opinions and they are voicing it.

+1 well said

[Braegan]

Ah, that explains the confusion then.

The posts you were responding to weren't advocating new low level content. They were advocating that the new planned content -- which will be both heroic and epic -- is targeting the incorrect levels for the heroic version. Specifically, level 18, which I agree is already overflowing with content. Fran's arguing that instead of level 18, the heroic versions should be level 16 or less. I tend to agree with Fran on this point. (I also advocate that the planned level 7 heroic content should instead be level 6.)

Fran has never argued that the level 18/16/whatever it ends up being heroic content shouldn't also be having the epic versions they are already planned to have.

There is still confusion.

The post you quoted of me and responded to was me responding to something Uska said, not Fran.

[Braegan]

Just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD will get you from 15-20!

But if you're starting GH at 12-13 then I can possibly see you needing some Lvl 17-18 quests to get to 20.

The fact is though that you're STILL missing quests SO you're once and done total is OFF!

Wow, we are getting OT, lol.

Ok one run through, elite BB, will not take a 3rd life+ character from 15-20 with just GH, Vale, Orchard and LoD.

If you really must know. I start GH at usually 15.2. I then run GH until I hit level 17 and hold off on it. I then run Orchard and Litany until into 18. I then head to the vale run that once. I then run LoD chain once. That usally puts me around 19. I wrap up with whatever I feel like at that point. Usually Amrath, IQ1, few Sane Asylumns, maybe RR.

And no. Missing running quests does not mean my total is off. The concept of once and done is something I sort of adopt. I have said before some quests I like so I repeat them, some quests I do not like so I skip them. But the once and done means running a quest once and moving on until cap. Just because you don't need to run every quest to cap does not mean my total is off.

Regarding other posts in reference to me.

Yes I do largely skip Slayers XP. I don't care for it. In heroics I have the choice to completely ignore Slayers and could still once and done my way to cap. I do not have that choice in Epics. Flat out there is more content for heroics, that isn't even a debate. All I want is to have the same luxury of the choice in Epic play as I do in Heroic.

Starting Epic content as soon as you hit 20/ETR is much preferred for CoV and heart seeds. You may not think it's relevant but I disagree. Unless you want to spend a bunch of extra time at cap farming for heart seeds, but that is very counter productive.

[Neomarica]

Two quick corrections: While we did defeat Malicia in Big Top, we fight her again in Wrath of the Flame and destroy her for good (since it is on her native plane). She can't go back for vengeance because outsiders can't be raised from the dead.

Also, Queen Lailat is dead. The whole reason why we had to collect the Sands flagging items is so that Zawabi can reverse her sealed haven and prevent her soul from escaping to Shavarath. Then we invade and kill her for good, since Zawabi prevented her from being "banished back to Shavarath" upon defeat. She also can't come back for revenge.

Not true, True Resurrection can bring outsiders back. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm

[Hendrik]

They should have asked in a poll that would have reached out to far more people especially if it was done like oxarhamer suggested.

Hindsight is always 20/20.

Even IF they did a poll, someone here would be upset about the poll itself, it's choices, how it was presented/delivered, or even the wording.

Still blown away people are getting upset that we are getting another Tribute Module! We started asking for another one the very day HH launched! Many offered to pay extra cash to get one because they enjoyed it so much and wanted more.

We got what we asked for and people are upset that we got what we asked for, again.

Rather sad....