Celcia – The "Impossible” Dream

[pappo]

How's this for a Dwarven Version...I originally had a bunch of the weapon spec and the like feats but honestly between Dwarf and Stalwart your already starving for AP without bringing Kensai into the mix.
Dwarven Fighter 20 (Axes,Picks or Hammers & Tower Shield)

Feats
1 Dragonmark
1F Combat Expertise

Which Dragonmark are you taking ? ......... oops, never mind, I forgot Dwarves only get Warding

[Xianio]

No, you won't. Even +8% doublestrike from ISM and a 55%(?) shield bash proc chance aren't enough to make up for all the advantages of 2H weapons:

You won't have 55% until way later in the game. However, you're kind of miss representing the dps shield provides. Ignoring the doublestrike (as I don't know how "soon" we're talking about here. If you take a 1d10 tower shield add 2d4 bash, add +3 (I don't know the level we're talking about again) from enhancement add +5 from power attack add +X from deadly, add a full strength bonus you end up with about the same dps with a small loss on cleaves (as every "weapon dice" only adds +1 damage, so +3 for a great cleave? woo). This isn't including the +8% from doublestrike of course.

That said, you do see a very notable loss if you're rarely standing still - however in heroics this is rarely an issue when you're using a shield.

It's definitely harder to TELL you're doing more dps because it comes in a flurry of smaller numbers but that's okay. The totals end up being extremely close.

PS: Two handed Weapons take off later on. Once you start getting synergy with crits, power attack bonuses and higher and higher strength totals S&B cannot possibly keep up. When you're in lower to mid level heroics S&B is pretty on par.

[unbongwah]

First off, I don't think shield bashes get full STR bonus; I think it's 0.5x STR like offhand procs from TWF. Second, if you can come up with a S&B build which does more DPS than swinging a Carnifex from lvls 4 thru 12-ish - and I'm talking in-game, not on a spreadsheet - you deserve some sort of special build-fu prize. HINT: if you're neglecting crit dmg, you're doing it wrong.

[Xianio]

First off, I don't think shield bashes get full STR bonus; I think it's 0.5x STR like offhand procs from TWF. Second, if you can come up with a S&B build which does more DPS than swinging a Carnifex from lvls 4 thru 12-ish - and I'm talking in-game, not on a spreadsheet - you deserve some sort of special build-fu prize. HINT: if you're neglecting crit dmg, you're doing it wrong.

So, the "objective" way to do this is to count up every swing against what? A kobold, jelly or an Ogre? How many do I have to kill? Like 8-10 with each gear setup? Lol, dude your arbitrary rules are nonsense. Just because you're stuck in U18 before shield bashing was fixed doesn't mean that there hasn't been significant changes.

Yes, shields apply full strength, you're welcome to test this yourself as you clearly won't take my word for it.
Also, if you want to worry about crits then lets also worry about doublestrike. So, shield feats give me 8% doublestrike and lets pretend my D. Axe also gives 2% doublestrike for the sake of easy math.

Now, we're also making the assumption here that the user has access to this named weapon from a purchased pack. That's fine, but lets not pretend that you're not gaming the system a little.

Either way, if we're picking 9ish as our number then lets go with +2 3d4 tower shield of bashing with +3% bash. At level 9 it's also pretty reasonable to expect either 3-8 or 2-12 (I forget) elemental damage on weapons and you'll have imp. crit. But we'll have to take into account the fact that you said 4 which of course sways my numbers as I'm not willing to spend an hour sifting through low level named items just to maximize a few points of damage.

The last point I'm going to mention is that with 10% doublestrike you're effectively giving yourself double your crit chance (if it's a sword) except that it's a crit chance that can also crit. That gives all kinds of funny dps weirdness but lets not discount it.
------------

Obviously I could keep going, however based on your response I think there's no point. There really two types of people; those who go by "gut" and those who ignore their gut and go by analytical information. You're clearly a "gut" guy. (which isn't a bad thing!)

Yes, it will always feel like a two-handed weapon is doing more damage because you can see it, feel it and 150 feels a LOT better than 30-30-60-30. I could prove it with math, with a combat dummy with exhaustive tests but the fact of the matter is, I can never make you "feel" like you're doing the same damage.

It will always feel weaker and I think that's the real take away. This is a game after all and "if it feels good do it, even if you shouldn't. Don't let people mess you around."

[unbongwah]

Now, we're also making the assumption here that the user has access to this named weapon from a purchased pack. That's fine, but lets not pretend that you're not gaming the system a little.

Gear is a pretty important part of any DPS discussion, though. If you're going to eliminate the single most popular low-lvl weapon from one of the most popular low-lvl P2P packs from consideration, then of course we're going to come to different conclusions!

Obviously I could keep going, however based on your response I think there's no point. There really two types of people; those who go by "gut" and those who ignore their gut and go by analytical information. You're clearly a "gut" guy.

Uhh, no, I'm a "goes off what in-game experience teaches me" guy, not a "runs up a bunch of numbers on a calculator which sound impressive" guy. And considering I just got my S&B pure ftr from lvl 4 to 20 with all shield feats, max shield bashing, high STR, Power Atk, ~10% base doublestrike, Block & Cut, etc. and still did more DPS with a nice greataxe more often than not the entire time, I like to think I do, in fact, have some idea what the heck I'm talking about.

I could prove it with math, with a combat dummy with exhaustive tests but the fact of the matter is, I can never make you "feel" like you're doing the same damage.

Actually, the combat dummy is a poor test, because it's got 100% fortification; but apart from undead, oozes, and the occasional golem, pretty much everything you fight for the first 12 lvls or so has little or no fort, and thus is eminently crittable. Furthermore, outside of boss fights, you're usually fighting multiple targets (and even most boss fights have adds to deal with); which means your AoE DPS is as or more important than single-target DPS.

Which is my point: what sounds good in theory or under certain test conditions is not indicative of what your overall in-game experience will be like.

[Valicathion]

Hello Valicathion! I admire what you are attempting to do here with a level 20 human fighter and I have one myself that I'm working on as well. My AC numbers aren't nearly anywhere near where yours are though, so do you think it would be possible to get a break down, bit by bit, on how you achieved 180 AC? Would be greatly appreciated, thanks!

hi sorry for the late reply. you'll have to forgive me as ive tr'd so don't have the full breakdown of the AC at hand but with the gear ive listed and the enhancements listed when i get back up to 28 ill re list the breakdown. 180 can still be improved :P ive now taken to using the twist from the draconic ED (+6 fort, +3 nat armour and never fail a fort save on a 1) also finishing of the Flawless White Dragon Plate would do the same as no doubt a number of other item changes or augment upgrades

yet again sorry it took so long to post a reply.

[Xianio]

Gear is a pretty important part of any DPS discussion, though. If you're going to eliminate the single most popular low-lvl weapon from one of the most popular low-lvl P2P packs from consideration, then of course we're going to come to different conclusions!

Well dur, but acting as those I'm supposed to guess what's "popular" simply because you have it isn't exactly playing fair. I'm not asking for your gear layout but I am acknowledging the fact that I don't know what you're using. Some standards is all I'm working with here and acknowledging the requirements needed to reach them.

I'm also acknowledging my own lack of interest in doing the research, so there's that too.

Uhh, no, I'm a "goes off what in-game experience teaches me" guy, not a "runs up a bunch of numbers on a calculator which sound impressive" guy.

Yes, I get that you're using "in-game experience" or, "gut" as I highly doubt you're timing/counting the swings it takes to reach the tasty center of an Ogre pop. Gut isn't guessing, it's feelings based of experience. There's a lot of benefits of working this way, but in edge cases (like I"m suggesting) gut tends to have a bias towards visceral oomph.

It's not impressive to do basic math. A grade 10 high school student has harder math problems then what I'm solving for. I apologize if I've insulted you, as you seem to be upset.

PS: This isn't "a guy with a calculator." It's a guy with a calculator and a practical test from "game experience" supporting that test. *more below*

And considering I just got my S&B pure ftr from lvl 4 to 20 with all shield feats, max shield bashing, high STR, Power Atk, ~10% base doublestrike, Block & Cut, etc. and still did more DPS with a nice greataxe more often than not the entire time, I like to think I do, in fact, have some idea what the heck I'm talking about.

For the purposes of your example, you and I have the same degree of experience. I have a level 13, strength focused pure Fighter with full S&B feats and put a greatsword through some tests, as, obviously, I'm a results-based person. Post level 13 I wouldn't argue with you that Two handed gets WAY stronger (strength of gear causing it to happen sooner, obviously) but prior to that I'm claiming they're extremely close.

Frankly, I still believe exactly what I said before; it will ALWAYS feel like Two-handed is doing more damage because the rewards are more obvious. That doesn't change the fact that if you stop-watched the time it takes for Ogres to "go boom" you'll be clicking in at a swings difference.

Edit: Also, is that build an accurate representation of how you ran through the game? If so, wouldn't your experience not actually be representative given the placement of the shield feats?

PS:
Please keep in mind unbongwah, you just told me that shield only gets 0.5 strength and approximately a month ago you told me that shield bashing was bugged and didn't work (something that hadn't been true since at least the enhancement pass). I'm not saying that you don't know your stuff, but I am saying that it seems to me that you're not accurately representing the value of a shield since U19. Which, isn't surprising given that it's the first time one has been a useful weapon since DDO's inception.

AoE DPS is as or more important than single-target DPS.

Derp missed this. I agree, that's certainly true. That said, both weapon types have AoE damage (cleaves and/or two weapon fighting feats) and at 20-30% damage it'll still advantage the great weapon slightly.

[pappo]

well when they put a EE wet paper bag Boss in raid it should be very worried :P

however it can tank quite well in EE and raids self healing needs work but with holding agro the only thing that seems to take it of her is the fury , add rush, multi shot, slaying agro which is quickly fixed with intim :P

What weapon are you using ? Are you S&B ?
In the picture it looks like you are S&B but the picture seems to show some two handed (greatswords) in you hot bars also.

[EllisDee37]

Well dur, but acting as those I'm supposed to guess what's "popular" simply because you have it isn't exactly playing fair.

Carnifex is widely known to be "the standard" in dps leveling weapons.

[Khalesh]

How do you get +11 CON from Enhancements?

In your CON breakdown the +6 from Stance is separate as is the ED CON (and twisted)

[Valicathion]

How do you get +11 CON from Enhancements?

In your CON breakdown the +6 from Stance is separate as is the ED CON (and twisted)

the stalwart cores grant +2 con past core 3 i think just not mentioned in the core discription

[SealedInSong]

Ring: +10 con 20 tumble ring

Is this for tumbling faster when you twist in Unearthly Reactions?

Just curious.

[Blackheartox]

Hmm question, what do you bring to a party full of monkchers/fury centerd builds, shiradis as a con based tank without con to damage?

In current selfhealing meta endgame, without a sp item even with reworked sentinel, best tanks i saw /if they are of use but dunno/ had around 1400 hp tops to be effective at holding aggro.
Urthor from ordo is a realy nice example or kratebane from hella.
Otherwise when i see something above 1500 hp its guarantedd not to be able to hold aggro, how did you do that on your build?
Just wondering since those folks are completionists, play the game as tanks for years /since the days when it was useful/ and they still tell me its extremely hard to hold aggro from a proper monkchery furyshot.

Or is this thread a troll thread and i failed every possible will save to realize that?

[FranOhmsford]

Hmm question, what do you bring to a party full of monkchers/fury centerd builds, shiradis as a con based tank without con to damage?

In current selfhealing meta endgame, without a sp item even with reworked sentinel, best tanks i saw /if they are of use but dunno/ had around 1400 hp tops to be effective at holding aggro.
Urthor from ordo is a realy nice example or kratebane from hella.
Otherwise when i see something above 1500 hp its guarantedd not to be able to hold aggro, how did you do that on your build?
Just wondering since those folks are completionists, play the game as tanks for years /since the days when it was useful/ and they still tell me its extremely hard to hold aggro from a proper monkchery furyshot.

Or is this thread a troll thread and i failed every possible will save to realize that?

This thread has been Necroed Over.

Valic quit DDO months ago.

[favour6]

This thread has been Necroed Over.

Valic quit DDO months ago.

holy thread necrology batman!

[Blackheartox]

Ah lol yea figured smthn was wrong lol, **** you my inability to read last 4 posts