1 Stalwart Defender +9 Casters = . . .

[grodon9999]

. . . the most fun VoD I think I've ever had. Stupid me forgot to take a screenshot but it wouldn't tell the story anyway.

I got a couple of guildies and put up and LFM for casters only that said "Steal my aggro." We did have a spell-singer bard with us as well (to HJEAL MEH!) and my friend did bring his LoB FvS because his wizard was on timer. We luckily got an 18/2 for the traps.

I learned two things:

1. A properly built hate-tank CAN hold aggro over casters, you do need multiple threat enhancing items and still need to put out at least decent DPS (44 STR, ravager, 1 HBGLoB and 1 Mineral II, Combat Expertise on). This was a test from some musing in our guild forums, the ground rules were I'm only allowed to use intimidate right after Sulu teleports and they need to give me a two second head start. We have multiple sorcs, wizards, THFing LoB with Divine punishment, and a halfling bard sneak-humping.

The TWFing Stalwart had no problem holding aggro and with the stance changes in U11 an S&B should put out the same threat.

2. my god are casters good DPS . . . He was taking so much damage it was insane, Sulu went up on his pedestal BEFORE THE TRAPS WERE DISARMED. he also died about 5 seconds after the orthons dropped. if you're one of those people who still only brings one caster on raids you are a friggin moron.

I'm glad we got to try this before the changes as it'll give us a good before/after look to see what they did. This was only on hard and we'll have to see how well it goes for post-U11 Elite when the HP gets doubled. Will casters have the stamina to hang? I'm not sure because even in this hard run a few people drank some pots just to see how fast it could be done.

My fighter was also about as important as the dialog in a porn film, I wasn't really needed at all. The casters easily could have just shield blocked if they got aggro and let it bounce. The current sulu just isn't dangerous enough to care, we'll see what he's like come U11.

[Chette]

I saw this LFM up last night, but unfortunately my caster is mid-TR and stuck around level 14 right now. Pretty interesting results.

[karl_k0ch]

Interesting. Did it matter who was the humpee?

[Burtle]

Nice...and can't wait for the changes to see as well... I tested my SD/S&B over on Lam... and I'll tell ya.. .his hate gen is 75% more viable then on live atm... intim/hate gen will be a bigger key asset than it is now...and the hp buff is kinda neat...both on my SD and on the bosses...

[grodon9999]

Interesting. Did it matter who was the humpee?

Sneak-humping halflings do generate more aggro.

[budalic]

2. my god are casters good DPS . . . He was taking so much damage it was insane, Sulu went up on his pedestal BEFORE THE TRAPS WERE DISARMED. he also died about 5 seconds after the orthons dropped. if you're one of those people who still only brings one caster on raids you are a friggin moron.

Quote of the Day!

[Burtle]

Sneak-humping halflings do generate more aggro.

Well yea... I mean, doncha hate it when yer sig/others' little rat dog comes a callin to show you his "dominance" it's kinda like that

[voodoogroves]

. . . the most fun VoD I think I've ever had. Stupid me forgot to take a screenshot but it wouldn't tell the story anyway.

I got a couple of guildies and put up and LFM for casters only that said "Steal my aggro." We did have a spell-singer bard with us as well (to HJEAL MEH!) and my friend did bring his LoB FvS because his wizard was on timer. We luckily got an 18/2 for the traps.

I learned two things:

1. A properly built hate-tank CAN hold aggro over casters, you do need multiple threat enhancing items and still need to put out at least decent DPS. This was a test from some musing in our guild forums, the ground rules were I'm only allowed to use intimidate right after Sulu teleports and they need to give me a two second head start. We have multiple sorcs, wizards, THFing LoB with Divine punishment, and a halfling bard sneak-humping.

The TWFing Stalwart had no problem holding aggro and with the stance changes in U11 an S&B should put out the same threat.

2. my god are casters good DPS . . . He was taking so much damage it was insane, Sulu went up on his pedestal BEFORE THE TRAPS WERE DISARMED. he also died about 5 seconds after the orthons dropped. if you're one of those people who still only brings one caster on raids you are a friggin moron.

I'm glad we got to try this before the changes as it'll give us a good before/after look to see what they did. This was only on hard and we'll have to see how well it goes for post-U11 Elite when the HP gets doubled. Will casters have the stamina to hang? I'm not sure because even in this hard run a few people drank some pots just to see how fast it could be done.

My fighter was also about as important as the dialog in a porn film, I wasn't really needed at all. The casters easily could have just shield blocked if they got aggro and let it bounce. The current sulu just isn't dangerous enough to care, we'll see what he's like come U11.

Totally wanted to jump in this - saw the LFM - but was teaching a buddy of mine some epics.

Key is that intimidate on the teleport ... I'm sure he had a bazillion DoTs still firing on him when he jumped back down. Otherwise, I'm very happy you managed to hold the treat. Makes me wonder though - you've got just about every piece of threat gear ... I know it's 3 days until you could test again, I'd be curious to know what happens if (a) you reduce your threat (b) the wiz/sorcs reduce theirs. Were any of the casters running threat enhancers themselves? (Ring of Lies, Anathema, etc.)

And yeah - he goes down fast. I'm kinda torn on the U11 changes because "more HP on the boss" isn't what I'd consider more challenging. I'm ok with more HP, but I'd love a new mechanic as well on future raids.

[karl_k0ch]

This goes against everything I have ever witnessed, is outside of my precious comfort zone and must therefore be impossible. I call shenanigans!

She gave you her number?

[Tinco]

This goes against everything I have ever witnessed, is outside of my precious comfort zone and must therefore be impossible. I call shenanigans!

[Chai]

if you're one of those people who still only brings one caster on raids you are a friggin moron.

This was the case even before the caster changes. The issue with them was the longer quests where they cant hold their DPS as long.

When I grab more than 3 for raid s just to fill DPS slots there are people who will leave the raid, citing "not enough DPS" or "too many casters" as the issue.

As far as tanks go, Im still in the "believe it when I see it" department. They have tried to rejuvinate and then re-nerf tanks for a while now.

[budalic]

She gave you her number?

This goes against everything I have ever witnessed, is outside of my precious comfort zone and must therefore be impossible. I call shenanigans!

Wow, karl, you are a future psychic!

[grodon9999]

... I know it's 3 days until you could test again, I'd be curious to know what happens if (a) you reduce your threat (b) the wiz/sorcs reduce theirs. Were any of the casters running threat enhancers themselves? (Ring of Lies, Anathema, etc.)

Ahh, research. See how much threat generation you need to see what you can get away with? Good idea actually.

I don't believe any of the casters had any threat amplification.

You pretty much NEED claw (or a 20% incite weapon) and stalwart to pull this off. One is NOT enough, we've had some painful experiences where the Stalwart had one but not the other and aggro wouldn't stay on them when full-retards aren't holding back. There's a clone of my stlawart in guild who has Claw but no Cinder's band yet and he has lost aggro to my rapier-wielding ranger (was fine once I enabled Tharnes set).

Really the best bet is to get your intimidate up for when/if the bad guy does turn you can get them back.

[voodoogroves]

Ahh, research. See how much threat generation you need to see what you can get away with? Good idea actually.

I don't believe any of the casters had any threat amplification.

You pretty much NEED claw (or a 20% incite weapon) and stalwart to pull this off. One is NOT enough, we've had some painful experiences where the Stalwart had one but not the other and aggro wouldn't stay on them when full-retards aren't holding back. There's a clone of my stlawart in guild who has Claw but no Cinder's band yet and he has lost aggro to my rapier-wielding ranger (was fine once I enabled Tharnes set).

Really the best bet is to get your intimidate up for when/if the bad guy does turn you can get them back.

Yeah - I'm also thinking along the lines of the same stuff that gets said for Barbs who wear their claw sets in mixed company and steal aggro from the tank. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, you've got better DPS gear than the tank ... but maybe the tank is the tank for a reason - maybe he has more amp or more AC or evasion or something. Not taking off your threat gear is kinda jerky.

So ... casters ... same deal ... just like rogues. Yeah your caster does great DPS now. Awesome. Stealing aggro isn't funny when it's unplanned, any more than when someone else yanks aggro from the tank.


I do like that intimidate is that safety valve, as that puts the tank PREs and similar squarly back into the place they need to be.

[grodon9999]

As far as tanks go, Im still in the "believe it when I see it" department. They have tried to rejuvinate and then re-nerf tanks for a while now.

I think we're in a rejuvenate phase. Intimiturtling was beyond broken and over-powered, it had to go. Something that's doing NO DAMAGE is holding aggro hitting a guy who's not swinging back? Hitting an invulnerable AC/DR tank while the rogue rips you to pieces is beyond silly even for MMO game mechanics. i mean threat enhancement is cheesy enough.

The change in intimidate will allow them to make Defender builds viable without being over-powered. As a result this can allow for even tougher bosses that can tear a non-tank to shreds.

Turbine DOES listen to us though they may not often react as quickly as we'd like or communicate as clearly as they should but they do make changes based on feedback. Many of us have been complaining since U9 that S&B doesn't generate enough threat, we've got changes in the U11 stances that affect this.

let's hope they hear us regarding damage mitigation working in epics.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Would it also work on a FvS with the 20% hate amplification and a 20% additional from DT Threat gear?

I ask as I honestly don't know the answer. Trying to get my FvS to hate tank properly once capped, then will also add gear on top of it to generate even more threat if possible.

I'm hoping that the DPS + DoTs + Hate enhancements/threat gear will get him some attention.

[grodon9999]

Yeah - I'm also thinking along the lines of the same stuff that gets said for Barbs who wear their claw sets in mixed company and steal aggro from the tank. Yeah, it's funny. Yeah, you've got better DPS gear than the tank ... but maybe the tank is the tank for a reason - maybe he has more amp or more AC or evasion or something. Not taking off your threat gear is kinda jerky.

People just need to not be stupid and if they are stupid let them spend the quest as a soul stone.

That said . . . if you're a "tank" and you can't hold aggro respec to an offensive PRE until you can and call yourself a "DPS." The new update will make it MUCH easier for new S&B defenders (the good ones now can still hold aggro fine) so we won't see as much silliness going forward. I don't expect a new S&B defender to hold aggro over a full-****** DPS, that'll take a full-****** tank and it should.

[voodoogroves]

Would it also work on a FvS with the 20% hate amplification and a 20% additional from DT Threat gear?

I ask as I honestly don't know the answer. Trying to get my FvS to hate tank properly once capped, then will also add gear on top of it to generate even more threat if possible.

I'm hoping that the DPS + DoTs + Hate enhancements/threat gear will get him some attention.

Trick is that the racial hate amp and the DT threat is only melee boosting. The things that boost spell-hate are not well documented or understood. I started a thread a while back when U9 hit, but folks weren't thinking in this way back then in general (or at least, not on these forums - maybe on others).

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Trick is that the racial hate amp and the DT threat is only melee boosting. The things that boost spell-hate are not well documented or understood. I started a thread a while back when U9 hit, but folks weren't thinking in this way back then in general (or at least, not on these forums - maybe on others).

This should work in my favor then as this life he is primarily melee. I may end up running him back through another life and specialize as a caster, but this life has been a blast up through level 17 so far.

I asked the question because I really, truly don't know the answer and was looking forward to lvls 19-20 and trying to tank in ToD to see if the build will work well end game or not.

[grodon9999]

Would it also work on a FvS with the 20% hate amplification and a 20% additional from DT Threat gear?

I ask as I honestly don't know the answer. Trying to get my FvS to hate tank properly once capped, then will also add gear on top of it to generate even more threat if possible.

I'm hoping that the DPS + DoTs + Hate enhancements/threat gear will get him some attention.

I run with an LoB FvS who has full-****** barbarian DPS gear. ESoS, claw-set, ravager, etc . . .

From our tests with his meleeing and DP he was not able to hold aggro over moderately good DPS. High DPS no way. He also spent way more of his own SP keeping himself alive over what would have been needed on a high-amp fleshie.

This should work in my favor then as this life he is primarily melee. I may end up running him back through another life and specialize as a caster, but this life has been a blast up through level 17 so far.

I asked the question because I really, truly don't know the answer and was looking forward to lvls 19-20 and trying to tank in ToD to see if the build will work well end game or not.

A maxxed out LoB FvS puts out about the same melee DPS as a poorly-equipped ranger, it's really not that much. Compared to a full-****** barb or kensai forget it.

it's still an AWESOME build, great survivability and the DPS is good when you combine DP and melee plus it's a full-blown healer. it's just not a tank.

Keep in mind the bosses are all getting steroids next week.