Alchemical weapons cant be ONLY way for DPS in DDO

[xandariant]

I posted it some time ago in crafting topics, but not many ppl look in there or care at what i wrote, so I will try to get other ppl some idea of what is going on with epic items and epic crafting items called Alchemical weapons:

Basically I have a real issue over new crafting, ALCHEMICAL WEAPONS (why epic item crafting - because those items have ml20 and red slot).
I was trilled when I heard about updating epic items. It was such a great idea since a lot of them were they were just useless. I thought it will change but I compared new updated weapons with alchemical weapons I felt disappointed a lot.

The issue is:
Why does crafted epic weapons are way better than normal epic weapons?

We all grinded quests to get epic parts for our items and those items got a bit updated and then we get slapped in the face with new kind of crafting that makes half of made by now items in big disadvantage.

As I see it crafting epic items will be easier. Sooner or later you will get all components to make alchemical weapon. It will be like a shroud. Soon everyone will just grind that quest, no mater pugs or guildies. Ppl will run it with few of their toons and just gather what they need to complete item one after another.
Making normal epic items is way harder since you have to get a specific shard, seal and scroll. Scrolls are expensive and drop rates are bad (especially in Sands) for most of items, yet after farming and making them you will only get useless item.

Below we can see all of renewed epic items:

III. Changed Item:

A. Crafted Epic Items

Phiarlan Carnival Items

• Epic Antique Greataxe - (Weapon) +6 Greataxe (dmg: 3d10+6), Force Burst, Metalline, Adamantine, Righteous, Empy Red Augment Slot, Empty Colorless Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]
• Epic Garos' Malice - (Weapon) +6 Shortsword (dmg:2d6), Flaming Burst, Blinding Embers, Greater Incineration, Empty Red Augment Slot, Empty Colorless Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]
• Epic Kron'zek's Cruelty - (Weapon) +6 Scimitar (dmg:2d6), Shocking Burst, Lightning Strike, Maiming,Keen, Improved Destruction, Empty Red Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]
• Epic Noxious Fang - (Weapon) +9 Throwing Dagger, Poison, Returning, Epic Fortitude Save +3, Large Scorpion Poison, Disintegration, Empty Red Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]
• Epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger - (Weapon) +6 Dagger (dmg:2d4), Acid Burst, Improved Decpetion, Dusk, Enfeebling, Improved Paralyzing, Empty Violet Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]

Sentinels of Stormreach Items

• Epic Chimera's Fang - (Weapon) +6 Bastard Sword (dmg: 2d10), Silver, Keen, Shocking Burst, Destruction, Shatter +10, Chimera's Ferocity, Empty Red Augment Slot, Disintegration [ML:20, BTC]
• Epic Elyd Edge - (Weapon) +6 Rapier (dmg:2d6+6), Charisma +7, Superior Devotion VI, Silver, Alchemical, Screaming, Cacophony, Inspiring Echoes, Anthem, Empty Red Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]
• Epic Midnight Greetings - (Weapon) +6 Kukri (dmg:2d4), Improved Deception, Finesse, Disintegration, Assassination +2, Improved Paralyzing, Assassin's Training, Clever Strike, Empty Red Augment Slot [ML:20, BTC]

I have to say in here that I'm not great in counting DPS as other ppl do, posting average dmg and all, but I just do a simple comparing and those who are better than me can check it. I might be wrong in what i write in here:

Lets look on the best of the items upgraded - Epic Antique Greataxe and Alchemical Greataxe

+6 Greataxe (dmg: 3d10+6) ---------> +6 Greataxe (dmg: 3d6+6) - silver/air/air/air
------------------------------------------> Lightning Strike, , Electrifying Blast,
Force Burst, ----------------------------> Shocking Burst
Metalline, ------------------------------> Silver
Adamantine,
Righteous, -----------------------------> Doublestrike 6%(it will give more of corse)
Empy Red Augment Slot, ------------> Empty Red Augment Slot
Empty Colorless Augment Slot ------> Exceptional Dexterity +2
--------------------------- (additionally) Stunning +10, Awareness 4,

I think this alchamical weapon will have way more dmg for devils than eAGA.

+6 Greataxe (dmg: 3d10+6) ---------> +6 Greataxe (dmg: 3d6+6) (cold iron/earth/earth/earth)
Force Burst, ----------------------------> Disintegration
Metalline, -------------------------------> cold iron
Adamantine,
Righteous,
Empy Red Augment Slot, --------------> Empty Red Augment Slot
Empty Colorless Augment Slot --------> Exceptional Constitution +2
------------------------------ (additionally) Acid Burst, Greater Stone Prison, Earthgrab, Acid Blast, Corrosive Blast

I'm not sure how much acid will do to Demon Queen, but I would say that with disintegration dmg would be even considering lesser physical and force/righteous, but over all I think this weapon have way more benefits against all other mobs too. In other words it is better.

Lets compare another item: Epic Garos' Malice supposed to be a great item for cold enemies.

+6 Shortsword (dmg:2d6), -----------> 6 Shortsword (dmg:1d6)(guessing base will be the same) (adamentine/fire/fire/fire)
Flaming Burst, -------------------------> Flaming Burst
Blinding Embers,
Greater Incineration,
Empty Red Augment Slot, ------------> Empty Red Augment Slot
Empty Colorless Augment Slot -------> Exceptional Strength +2
---------------------------- (additionally) Flaming Blast, Seeker +10, Incineration, Righteous Fiery Blast,

I guess that: Flaming Blast, Seeker +10, Incineration, Righteous Fiery Blast is better dmg than Blinding Embers, Greater Incineration. Blinding can be useful but in the end enemy will die faster with alchemical weapon, so it doesn't really matter if we blinded him. Maybe rogues will get a little beneft from it.

Next one is Epic Chimera's Fang. It is a very good DPS item, yet I think that it won't be better in holding agro and dmg than 2 kopesh user with those equipped even with 100% on bosses:

-------------------------------------------- silver/air/earth/air --------------- silver/air/air/air
+10 Bastard Sword (dmg: 2d10), ---- +6 Kopesh (dmg: 1d10) (probably)
------------------------------------------> Electrifying Blast, ---------------> Electrifying Blast (for lesser physical dmg)
Silver, silver silver
Keen, -----------------------------------> (most have it as a feat, and if you dont use 3 sentinel deats you have 2 feats free)
Shocking Burst, -----------------------> Shocking Burst ------------------> Shocking Burst
Destruction,
Shatter +10,
Superior Parry -------------------------> Awareness 4, ------------------> Awareness 4
Fortified defense (+50% fort) --------- (I don't see it as must to have for a tank who can have 100% fort or even 110%)
Empty Red Augment Slot, ------------> Empty Red Augment Slot ------> Empty Red Augment Slot
Disintegration --------------------------> Disintegration ------------------> Lightning Strike
---------------------------- (additionally) Stunning +10, -------------------- Stunning +10
---------------------------- (additionally) Exceptional Constitution +2, ---- Exceptional Dexterity +2
---------------------------- (additionally) Acid Blast,
---------------------------- (additionally) Electrifying Blast, ----------------- Electrifying Blast
------------------------------------------------------------------ (additionally) Doublestrike 6%

In my comparing i used Chimera's Ferocity(considered in other abilities as 3 dragonmark sentinel user)
I'm not an exert on dmg per min or sec, but just comparing it makes me think that Chimeras fang with its incite will be at most even in holding agro and kopeshes will do a lot more real dmg so it will be good for party since they dps will be better = boss dies faster.
I'm not comparing it against other kinds of DRs like demons (cold iron, cause in there Chimeras fang will loose rather surely).

In the end the weakest of all upgraded dps weapons: Epic Kron'zek's Cruelty vs alchemical kopesh

+6 Scimitar (dmg:2d6), -------------> +6 Kopesh (dmg:1d10)(guessing)(silver/air/air/air)
Shocking Burst, -----------------------> Shocking Burst
Lightning Strike, ----------------------> Lightning Strike
Maiming, ------------------------------> Doublestrike 6% (gives more)
Keen, ---------------------------------> (most have it as a feat)
Improved Destruction,
Empty Red Augment Slot -----------> Empty Red Augment Slot
-------------------------- (additionally) Stunning +10, Awareness 4, Exceptional Dexterity +2, Electrifying Blast.

Not only it is weaker and aside of Improved Destruction it is fully replaceble, alchemical gives a lot more and it will be a devil BB at the same time.


Epic Elyd Edge - (Weapon) +6 Rapier (dmg:2d6+6), Charisma +7, Superior Devotion VI, Silver, Alchemical, Screaming, Cacophony, Inspiring Echoes, Anthem, Empty Red Augment Slot
I wont break it. It can be great utility item, but it is only BB for devils, and its dmg relays on sonic. If something is resistant to sonic it will be very bad. Yet I can say this item is good for its purposes.

As for Epic Noxious Fang (can be easily matched), Epic Phiarlan Spy Dagger (utility item only), Epic Midnight Greetings, I can say those are more or less utility items, but I doubt Midnight greetings to be a really good dps item, it can be used for solo questing or an off hand weapon, but it wont suppress rogues who use 2 kopeshes (as I see those are the best).

I agree with Sirgog

These are a tier above Greensteel, yes. But there's nothing insane about them. They are a modest power increase.

Seeker 10, the most flashy ability, is nowhere near as good in U11 raiding as it is in raids on Live due to raid boss fortification increases.

A question - has anyone crafted onto a shield yet? If you make a T2 Air shield, does it get Lightning Strike on bashes, or does it get Lightning Storm Guard?

Alchemical items are not over powered, they are just good weapons. Epic items are just becoming weak, they aren't upgraded correctly to the epic crafting that was introduced as an alchemical weapons. So they will soon become worthless.



My final conclusion for Genasi: please rethink those items you say "they will be good, we upgraded them". For what I see those are more like "don't cry they can be useful while you will do your alchemical weapons". They are just behind what you will give us in U11.
I have a theory of mine, it says: If upgraded items are weak at the very start it means they will soon be USELESS.

I also know that Turbine wants to give ppl reason to do mass buy of the new pack. It will be a great cash bust if we will get new pack that is a must to have like Vale of Twiglight, but you will only hurt long time players if we wont get more balance in this game, if you tell all ppl to forget about all they got and switch over to new crafting (Alchemical Weapons). I have to say I see a great for those items, but they cant be only best way to play for all DPS toons. Give something to other epic items that are harder to get/make.

In the end I think it all wont benefit Turbine, unfortunately. Ppl will narrow adventure pack they buy to those form U11, shroud (for GS) and maybe 1 or 2 more like Red Fens for epic armor and accessories.
Please consider rewriting upgraded epic weapons so they can match alchemical weapons or have its very good use like Epic Elyd Edge have.
You can consider adding more base dmg or increasing crit range for those epic items that are weak. Epic items should have their impact against Alchemical Weapons not be totally overruned by them.

My final conclusion for other who fell like I do is: Think if you really need epic weapons. Those that are weak will be just useless. Soon you will link someone your item and he will say "don't joke around and get an Alchamical Weapon or we wont consider you DPS".
I would say - do not try to make epic weapons, it will be a waste of your time unfortunately for all ppl who grinded quests to get epic weapons parts. Just gring the new pack, make alchemical weapons, maybe we will get any reason to make old epics someday..

[sirgog]

Don't compare existing Epic weapons to tier 3 Alchemical weapons. T2 is a much better comparison.

T3 requires completing at least Epic Lord of Blades, which is far harder than all but a couple of epics. Maybe VON3, Chains of Flame and post-U11 Chronoscope will be of comparable difficulty.

You massively underestimate Kron'zek's Cruelty too. -4 AC to a mob (Imp Dest is -4, not -8) is a huge raidwide DPS buff on most important bosses and trash mobs. Really only Horoth and eVelah aren't affected, every other important boss has enough AC that first attacks miss on a 2 from most non-Barbarian, non-Kensai toons. With an Artificer it can bypass any DR (slot it with Good, then add Silver/Adamantine weapons for Devil raids or LOB, or Deadly Weapons for almost everything else).

[Vellrad]

I'm probably not going to bother with that, and I don't think someone who will, is going to deal a lot of more damage with his spells than I with mine, and even if, its not because of this 1 item.

[xandariant]

Don't compare existing Epic weapons to tier 3 Alchemical weapons. T2 is a much better comparison.

T3 requires completing at least Epic Lord of Blades, which is far harder than all but a couple of epics. Maybe VON3, Chains of Flame and post-U11 Chronoscope will be of comparable difficulty.

You massively underestimate Kron'zek's Cruelty too. -4 AC to a mob (Imp Dest is -4, not -8) is a huge raidwide DPS buff on most important bosses and trash mobs. Really only Horoth and eVelah aren't affected, every other important boss has enough AC that first attacks miss on a 2 from most non-Barbarian, non-Kensai toons. With an Artificer it can bypass any DR (slot it with Good, then add Silver/Adamantine weapons for Devil raids or LOB, or Deadly Weapons for almost everything else).

I see all ppl saying "it will be so hard to complete new raid", and I haven't done it on Lammania, but I'm afraid It wont mater when ppl will run it 10 or 20 times it will get easier and easier so in the end in probably few months we will have grinding like Shroud. Epic Chrono was also hard to do at the start, yet now ppl grind it just like that. That is in my opinion the future of all quests, so when i say that I'm comparing them its not because It will not be a great work now, but cause it wont be much that much in 6 months when ppl will get to know the new quest.

I'm wondering why do you compare current epics to Tier 2 and not completed item (Tier 3) which gets its red slot and +6 enhancement. Why do you think Tier 3 shouldn't be equal to current (or renewed) epic items - I have no clue why do you think that, but I have to say I disagree in here a lot.

As for Improved Destruction my monk have wraps with them and ppl use HoX armor with Destruction, so its not really that hard AC down. Monks loose the least on switching pure good or greater bane to improved destruction and destruction don't cost much any melee (it would cost considering Mirilith Chain or it's epic but crits won't mater in U11 and later updates so ppl can switch to Destruction armor instead of seeker armor).

If I didn't cover your thoughts let me know.
I still think this new crafting will do a lot of damage to all players.
Don't underestimate ppls experience in doing epics and grinding, but please analyze how much really better those items are than those new epics.

I'm probably not going to bother with that, and I don't think someone who will, is going to deal a lot of more damage with his spells than I with mine, and even if, its not because of this 1 item.

Well those items are awesome, but I'm not speaking about caster items, but melee items. Just look what they can do. It really is a lot more than all current items and more than eSOS on bosses after U11.
Basically those will be must to have for melees.

[incineration]

on the garo's malice

After doing some additional calcs of my own, Greater Incineration actually comes out to more damage per hit than Lightning Strike. In fact, it should result in about 50% more raw damage, due to how much more often it procs (which is slightly more than twice as often as normal Incin). I think it will suit an Epic item just fine, and should make up for the fact that a lot of end-game enemies tend to resist or be immune to fire. Also, I'd add that Epic quests do offer many more opportunities than Amrath to beat on enemies that take full damage from fire.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...06#post4019006

[Diib]

How does adding something to the game "do a lot of damage to all players"?

It does no damage to any player, it only increases options. Perhaps some epics will no longer be best in slot, so what? You got use out of them so far, right?

[xandariant]

How does adding something to the game "do a lot of damage to all players"?

It does no damage to any player, it only increases options. Perhaps some epics will no longer be best in slot, so what? You got use out of them so far, right?

For me it is simple. You can read about it in the bottom of my first post, there are all reasons why it will hurt us and Turbine.
I can also say this to you, getting new items is great as long as you maintain a balance and not favor new items over all we have for now (its in weapons case on at least half of used in game items).
It simply will make ppl feel bad (others will like it), but mo matter how ppl say moving all older items to be way worse than newly introduced is only a way of hurting those who played a lot to get what they do now.
I'm not saying that ppl shouldn't bet options for something better, but such imbalance is not an option but a force to make ppl grind for new stuff, cause older will be too weak or you will just feel like in old car when all your friends drive new Porsche.

This way or another i don't believe we are going in right way in changes made in old epics.
DON'T get me wrong! I'm saying that old epics (those remade) are too weak, not new weapons are too strong.
They don't give any option and only force all to go for new pack instead of giving new options.

[Emili]

How does adding something to the game "do a lot of damage to all players"?

It does no damage to any player, it only increases options. Perhaps some epics will no longer be best in slot, so what? You got use out of them so far, right?

I believe his viewpoint is such that with the new standard ... the old standards are eliminated. Which he's correct - they are.

Your options not increased - they be eliminated in such sense... The viewpoint of many player centre on the build not the quest. The result means those epics are no longer worth aquiring and as such not worth running.

Simply put the old content is replaced in value... by item and by scope of questing. I know many a high end player who no longer bothered with house D & P epics for instance - not because they had the items from there, but were nothing of interest due those supposively "epic" items being really poor. So the devs upgraded them to spark some interest and get some payoff of the work which went into those quests - D and P - High end players ran them once or twice then moved on and so others follow suit. Tine is better spent in other places afterall... so has Carnival paid for itself? The work the devs placed in it? Possibly time to pack it up and leave town due lack of draw?

The heavy players started farming those epics due the upcomming changes ... however when the new crafting is available - we all know it will stop completely for these players and the focus in the new content. Is it good/bad, cannot tell, does this make house D & P content worth less ... well O' course. Why would anyone run those after the new content be out? What's more... why would anyone buy them?

Is always a catch 22 ... they wish to make people run the new content, but cannot without reducing the old content's value.

[t0r012]

shhh.... my monk is finally gonna get litII and you want to ruin that?
Wait LitII with stunning +10, metal type to break DR (o.k. crystal for my shintaoIII) and +4 insight AC.
Oh and tacking on +2 exc dex and 6% doublestrike?

That is the monk god weapon right there. holy burst ring with lets say acid burst 2nd ring.

o.k. maybe it is a bit much.
somemonk somewhere had to go down on the whole loot dev team.

[mystafyi]

wait till U12 items come out.... power creep to sell packs. it all makes sense for turbine.

[Emili]

wait till U12 items come out.... power creep to sell packs. it all makes sense for turbine.

... and so I ran a couple HoX and VoD with afriend last night, I thought to myself "what are we doing here?" Is not likely we'd ever use anything from here again, just killin time and I guess jokin' round. He's leaving game in a few weeks... boredom caught up I suppose and tweaked out nothing to do. Question be however is why does everything need be consolidated into "one area" all the time. This has been true of this game ever since the shroud was released... prior to that you could find people running a smathering of everything.

Am ViP always have been... there have been a quite a few times P2P friends have asked me if they should buy "3bc" ... or many of the more obscure packs and I always answer them in honesty... well if you've TP to burn oe just feel like completeness of content otherwise just is nothing there. I cannot help turbine sell something unless there is some value to friend... in game to it.

I think is the point which the OP is getting at though... If you entice someone to spend all on a few packs such as vale and the new one why would they need to consider others? We only run those things which have some form of pay-off.

Fens for instance ... eclaw, I cannot imagine too many people looking at running those at all laters - it's exhausted. Why run for that set when you may use your time wisely getting better from the new? Fens becomes entirely dead content.

The desert was nice due it's variance but eventually once eMarilith and eChaos Blades are replaced there become no point outside a token, why bother? House D and P epics never worth much from start they gave it a shot in the arm but if you think about it, it's just a shot of morphine to releave the pain on some dyin' quests.

Scope being the OP is asking the Dev's intent I believe?

[Bodic]

alot of Epic weapons have never even compared to GS and GS is Older by far.

and on a personal level with EPic MG my rog will be offhanding that weapon all the time. Do you understand the utility of that weapon in any content that swarms mobs at you.

[Emili]

alot of Epic weapons have never even compared to GS and GS is Older by far.

and on a personal level with EPic MG my rog will be offhanding that weapon all the time. Do you understand the utility of that weapon in any content that swarms mobs at you.

Well... GS have been waining for a while, Min II is unimportant (really not worth the scales these days). Lit II and Radiance the only weapons left of worth from shroud... as for wearables really +45 hp for those builds a little hp shy - con op and that is about it.

I keep considering eMG... scope change of build though as I've pierce spec on my rogue so requires some shelving of GS rapiers and replacing with scimis or khopeshes on main... I suppose not hard to do but considering where I'd move sSmallblade to? Delemna say the least. However if I am capable of crafting in the new content much of what eMG offers I can easily bypass such.

[Noelemahc]

The House D and Carnival epics are among the easiest in the game, and obtaining those epics aren't that hard. The new Lord of Blades raid is among one of the hardest so far. The loot for it SHOULD be better, by a wide margin. Yes, some of the other older epic weapons aren't as good, but Genasi hasn't finished upgrading those yet.

Again, epic RAID items should be significantly better than epic QUEST items, especially when said epic raid is difficult to complete. I believe just about everyone else would agree.

[SilkofDrasnia]

The House D and Carnival epics are among the easiest in the game, and obtaining those epics aren't that hard. The new Lord of Blades raid is among one of the hardest so far. The loot for it SHOULD be better, by a wide margin. Yes, some of the other older epic weapons aren't as good, but Genasi hasn't finished upgrading those yet.

Again, epic RAID items should be significantly better than epic QUEST items, especially when said epic raid is difficult to complete. I believe just about everyone else would agree.

hmm then i would hope ecb and emari would get a boost

[Bodic]

Well... GS have been waining for a while, Min II is unimportant (really not worth the scales these days). Lit II and Radiance the only weapons left of worth from shroud... as for wearables really +45 hp for those builds a little hp shy - con op and that is about it.

I keep considering eMG... scope change of build though as I've pierce spec on my rogue so requires some shelving of GS rapiers and replacing with scimis or khopeshes on main... I suppose not hard to do but considering where I'd move sSmallblade to? Delemna say the least. However if I am capable of crafting in the new content much of what eMG offers I can easily bypass such.

I doubt the eMG +2DC will be craftable.
my sop set(s) is RadII+ Sblade, RadII +eMG(when I get that shard). I do use others but that is a hard to beat that pair for rog. I also don't care about Khopesh heaven forfend I do like some role play in my Rogue. I even use daggers

Also I have never had a need for MinII's on any toon.

[Diyon]

I think the main point here is that previous content shouldn't be utterly overshadowed.

These new weapons being top of the DPS race 85% of the time is fine. Sometimes for a build something being better elsewhere should be good. Or something just being plain different. For example, a lot of the dps strength of these new weapons is elemental based. That limits them in some places.

I guess what I'm saying is they should be new options, but not the only options. For instance, if other epic weapons competed relatively evenly with these weapons, they'd still be fine. And really good, and people would still really want them. You want a stunning +10 on a good dps weapon? Or Seeker +10? You pick up one of these new weapons. But in the other options there should be things desirable that are different. So stunning, or seeker, or whatever is not what you're looking for? Well then perhaps on of those older epic items is.

As was said, some of the updated epic items fit this position just fine.

The best way to sell new content without annoying people by making lots of stuff obsolete and making quests not get run anymore, is not by making new better than everything previous stuff. It's by making new different stuff. So that for 2 given characters, one will see the new stuff and go "That's exactly what I've been needing! I'm going to change out from using this old thing" and the second will say "That's cool, but this thing here is still what I'd rather be using. I think I might want one of those on one of my other characters though," and have both of these be perfectly legitimate actions. Even better, if stuff is just different, is when the new stuff makes people want to get that AND stuff that already exists, because both are good for what you would want, but one of them won't cover everything, because they are different.

Okay I hope some of that makes sense.

/end rambling

[BlackSteel]

On most mobs, the new craftables still don't beat an eSoS

[Emili]

I doubt the eMG +2DC will be craftable.
my sop set(s) is RadII+ Sblade, RadII +eMG(when I get that shard). I do use others but that is a hard to beat that pair for rog. I also don't care about Khopesh heaven forfend I do like some role play in my Rogue. I even use daggers

Also I have never had a need for MinII's on any toon.

I gave a shard to a friend the other day... even though I could have crafted such right then. My scope however is I tote RadII/litII RadII/eSBlade mostly at the momnet... to gather the kukri I would need find room for ic:slash which may entail removal of ic: peirce and regearing the whole structure, not pretty. As stands I do not utilize my assasin DC as most quests are zurge thru to end... sporting everythin in SA, capstone and just enough int for a decent amount of trap skill focus is plain DPS and so her dc just really sits awaiting.

[BoBoDaClown]

When they make new content, they need to make the loot a little bit better.

In order to keep people running the old stuff, they should up the drops rates on outdated gear - i.e. so the old stuff becomes a stepping stone on that loot ladder.