Best wiz –post u9 elf or human (dc vs spell pen)

[Setin_Myways]

I have been hearing that the best wizard post u9 will be a human and this is because they get the additional +1 dc from the higher int (3rd wiz int + human int enhancement) , however, I hear many folks say that spell penetration is more important than dc, because it doesn’t matter what your dc is if you cannot land the spell in the first place.

Given Hold spells will be subject to a spell resistance check post u9, and most death spells already require one, wouldn’t this mean that Elf is the ‘winner’ for best wizard post u9? Elves get 10 more sp and +1 spell pen for their Elven Arcanum chain, so while the human can get +1 dc, the elf can get +4 spell pen (and 40 more sp but I think that is negligible in the broad picture)

I assume this spell pen will stack with the wizard spell pen enhancement line and with the feats that increase spell pen (if they don’t, then they save some ap you would spend on the spell pen chain). So this is like getting a few feats tossed in or having a few wiz past life feats added in.

It was a discussion of having a wiz past life over a sorc past life that got me to think about this question, i.e. I hear the spell pen from wiz past life > than sorc dc because end game, spell pen rules dc.

I have to assume I am not considering some things, thus I am asking folks what I am missing here. I guess rather than a ‘is elf better than human?’ this could be a ‘is spell pen more important that dc?’

Any feedback is appreciated.

[Ridag]

I have been hearing that the best wizard post u9 will be a human and this is because they get the additional +1 dc from the higher int (3rd wiz int + human int enhancement) , however, I hear many folks say that spell penetration is more important than dc, because it doesn’t matter what your dc is if you cannot land the spell in the first place.

Given Hold spells will be subject to a spell resistance check post u9, and most death spells already require one, wouldn’t this mean that Elf is the ‘winner’ for best wizard post u9? Elves get 10 more sp and +1 spell pen for their Elven Arcanum chain, so while the human can get +1 dc, the elf can get +4 spell pen (and 40 more sp but I think that is negligible in the broad picture)

I assume this spell pen will stack with the wizard spell pen enhancement line and with the feats that increase spell pen (if they don’t, then they save some ap you would spend on the spell pen chain). So this is like getting a few feats tossed in or having a few wiz past life feats added in.

Those are not the only differences between Human and Elf, so it is not quite that simple. Humans also get an extra feat and no penalty to Con, and elves get a bonus to dex which doesn't do much for a Wizard.

As for Elven Arcanum - with the Elemental enhancement lines now being split up, AP will be a bit thinner for all casters. Wizard Spell pen enhancements are +1/+2/+3 for 2/4/6 AP (+6 for 12 AP), and Elven Arcanum is +1/tier for 1/2/3/4 (+4 for 10 AP), that's 22 AP (over 25% of your AP) on Spell Pen enhancements. Of course taking the first two tiers (+2 for 3 AP) is a much better deal, taking the first two tiers of each would result in +6 spell pen for 9 AP, saving 3 AP for equal spell pen from enhancements over other wizards.

Humans also need to invest 2 AP for human versatility Int, and Wizard Int III (6 AP) (since current max Int ends up at an odd number other races can usually drop this depending on gear and buffs/pots used).

So Elves would be the better choice for AP efficiency, saving a possible 11 AP over a similarly geared Human, at the cost of +1 DC, 1 feat and 2 Con.

Of course if you choose to use those AP on the rest of Elven Arcanum and Wizard Spell Pen, you end up with 2 less AP than a similarly geared human and gain +4 Spell Pen, at the cost of +1 DC, 1 feat and 2 Con.

It was a discussion of having a wiz past life over a sorc past life that got me to think about this question, i.e. I hear the spell pen from wiz past life > than sorc dc because end game, spell pen rules dc.

Just to point out here that Sorc past life is 20 SP and +1 to the Evocation school only, not to all Dcs, so I'm not sure what you are referring to. Wizard past life feats, both passive and selected, are much better than Sorc past life feats for someone that plans on being a Wizard (or any caster for that matter) in their final life.

I have to assume I am not considering some things, thus I am asking folks what I am missing here. I guess rather than a ‘is elf better than human?’ this could be a ‘is spell pen more important that dc?’

Something to keep in mind here - in Update 9 Epic mobs are getting their hit points halved and their saves increased by 4, but there is no change to their Spell Resistance.

Yes Mass Hold will now be (properly) subject to a Spell Pen check, but that is not the only change to spells. Necromancy spells have received a huge boost by having the hit die caps removed, and Epic mobs now being susceptible to death effects.

Let me preface my final thoughts by saying that any final build Wizard that I play would have at least 1 Wizard past life, the selectable feat is just too good for any caster to pass up, and I'd most likely do all 3 Wizard past lives. I've just finished my Sorcs final life (1xWiz, 3xSorc past lives) and plan to start TR'ing my Wizard (currently a WF Archmage) next month. He will end up a Human Pale Master, though I'll try a different race each life to see if my opinion changes at all.

In my opinion, I feel that a Human Wizard is stronger all the way around. This may not be the same for everyone, as it will vary depending on your playstyle, number of lives planned, gear selection and availability.

Hope that helps you out a little bit. The most important thing is to have fun!

[rabrams99]

non pale master best is warforged imo. one less dc than the drow. mine has a 44 dc.

palemaster i would think drow (20 int) is best, but elf would have one less dc (18 int) but 4 more spell pen. I am leaning towards elf. although one might want to see how they fair in epics after the changes to mass hold.

[Ridag]

non pale master best is warforged imo. one less dc than the drow. mine has a 44 dc.

palemaster i would think drow (20 int) is best, but elf would have one less dc (18 int) but 4 more spell pen. I am leaning towards elf. although one might want to see how they fair in epics after the changes to mass hold.

With currently available items and buffs, similarly geared Human and Drow end up with the exact same maximum sustainable DC. The Human also has an extra feat and +2 con advantage over Drow, as well as the option for 3 tiers of racial toughness as opposed to two for the Drow.

Drow really need some racial enhancement buffage, they've been lacking for awhile now.

[rabrams99]

With currently available items and buffs, similarly geared Human and Drow end up with the exact same maximum sustainable DC. The Human also has an extra feat and +2 con advantage over Drow, as well as the option for 3 tiers of racial toughness as opposed to two for the Drow.

Drow really need some racial enhancement buffage, they've been lacking for awhile now.

Can you expalin how they can get the same sustainable dc?

on my wiz i have a 46 int: 18 + 5 (lvl up) + 3 (ap) +7 item + 3 except + 4 (tome) +2 (capstone) +2 yugo +2 ship buff = 46

A drow gets a starting int 20 = so they could get 48

human can get +1 more action point to get to 47


I must be missing something but I do not see how humans can get the same dc?

[Ridag]

Can you expalin how they can get the same sustainable dc?

on my wiz i have a 46 int: 18 + 5 (lvl up) + 3 (ap) +7 item + 3 except + 4 (tome) +2 (capstone) +2 yugo +2 ship buff = 46

A drow gets a starting int 20 = so they could get 48

human can get +1 more action point to get to 47


I must be missing something but I do not see how humans can get the same dc?

+1 from Litany of the Dead. You could argue that not everyone has Litany and I'd agree, but also point out that a +3 tome is fairly attainable (and much more common then +4) and off-sets it quite easily.

Here's the max Int/DC/Spell Pen thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243092

A snip from that thread:

INT
--------------------
20 base for Drow (19 human, 18 WF)
5 lvls
3 Wiz INT enh
4 Tome
7 item (Epic Staff of Inner Sight - two hander )
1 exceptional INT+1 (these must be on ToD rings as your hands will have the staff)
2 exceptional INT+2 (see above)
1 Littany of the Dead
2 Wiz Capstone
---------------------
45

45 max for Drow, 44 for Human, 43 for all other races. The majority of potion/shrine buffs are +2, with the exception of House D pots which can give +3 but only last for 1 minute so I don't consider them "sustainable" at all.

Of course this allows the Drow to save AP over a equally geared human by dropping Wiz Int III, so it may indeed be the best choice for some players depending on how much they want to invest into their Wiz.

Personally I prefer the extra feat and no Con penalty over anything that the Drow can provide, and I hope Drow get some attention in the racial enhancement department soon.

[Setin_Myways]

thanks for the feedback - gives me plenty to consider.

[rabrams99]

+1 from Litany of the Dead. You could argue that not everyone has Litany and I'd agree, but also point out that a +3 tome is fairly attainable (and much more common then +4) and off-sets it quite easily.

Here's the max Int/DC/Spell Pen thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243092

A snip from that thread:




45 max for Drow, 44 for Human, 43 for all other races. The majority of potion/shrine buffs are +2, with the exception of House D pots which can give +3 but only last for 1 minute so I don't consider them "sustainable" at all.

Of course this allows the Drow to save AP over a equally geared human by dropping Wiz Int III, so it may indeed be the best choice for some players depending on how much they want to invest into their Wiz.

Personally I prefer the extra feat and no Con penalty over anything that the Drow can provide, and I hope Drow get some attention in the racial enhancement department soon.

Ahh yes. i forgot about Litany. thanks.

[bradleyforrest]

Keep in mind that to get a Human to the same DC as a Drow requires a LOT of work. You need the +4 Tome, Litany, one of a few +7 Int items, and +1+2 Exceptional Int.

I'm at the point where I am wishing that I were a Human for that feat right now, but that's only because I have all of these items. Took a long time to get them all, and some luck.

[Ridag]

Keep in mind that to get a Human to the same DC as a Drow requires a LOT of work. You need the +4 Tome, Litany, one of a few +7 Int items, and +1+2 Exceptional Int.

I'm at the point where I am wishing that I were a Human for that feat right now, but that's only because I have all of these items. Took a long time to get them all, and some luck.

Well you can look at it this way: getting a max DC on either is a lot of work.

Let's look at a reasonably achievable amount of Int on a Drow:

20 (base)
5 (levels)
3 (enhancements)
1 (exceptional)
2 (exceptional)
2 (capstone)
2 (tome)
6 (item)

is 41 Int, a human would have 40 - same DC

Add a plus 7 item and a +3 tome (which are about the same level of time invested) puts a Drow at 43 and Human at 42.

Add Litany and a +4 tome (both would be a significant amount of time invested, without considerable luck) and the drow is at 45 and the Human is at 44.

Can a Drow reach max DC before a Human? Certainly, but imho you should always strive to have the best character with all available gear currently in game. Currently both Human and Drow can reach the best possible DC, but Human also gets an extra feat, has no con penalty and has better racial enhancements. If Drow had a few tweaks made to their racial enhancements they could certainly level the playing field.

[Khorae]

+1 from Litany of the Dead. You could argue that not everyone has Litany and I'd agree, but also point out that a +3 tome is fairly attainable (and much more common then +4) and off-sets it quite easily.

Here's the max Int/DC/Spell Pen thread: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=243092

A snip from that thread:





Of course this allows the Drow to save AP over a equally geared human by dropping Wiz Int III, so it may indeed be the best choice for some players depending on how much they want to invest into their Wiz.

Personally I prefer the extra feat and no Con penalty over anything that the Drow can provide, and I hope Drow get some attention in the racial enhancement department soon.

Assuming we are talking about a PM drow, you have to take Wiz Int III for PM3, so the AP won't be saved.

[Ridag]

Assuming we are talking about a PM drow, you have to take Wiz Int III for PM3, so the AP won't be saved.

Excellent point, especially with PM III being a pre-req for Shroud of the Lich in U9.

[bradleyforrest]

The -2 CON is a bit overstated. Once I LR back to a PM tomorrow, my Drow PM will have over 550HP after buffs. 570 once I get enough epic tokens to put Toughness back into a usable slot.

It's really about the extra feat that humans get.

[kendo]

As for Elven Arcanum - with the Elemental enhancement lines now being split up, AP will be a bit thinner for all casters. Wizard Spell pen enhancements are +1/+2/+3 for 2/4/6 AP (+6 for 12 AP), and Elven Arcanum is +1/tier for 1/2/3/4 (+4 for 10 AP), that's 22 AP (over 25% of your AP) on Spell Pen enhancements. Of course taking the first two tiers (+2 for 3 AP) is a much better deal, taking the first two tiers of each would result in +6 spell pen for 9 AP, saving 3 AP for equal spell pen from enhancements over other wizards.

do the 3 wizard spell pen enhancements stack? I thought you got +3 for 12 AP, in which case getting +4 for 10 AP for an elf is pretty nice. I am also assuming that the usual rules that similar benefits can stack if one is race based and one is class based. so if you were willing to spend the APs, an elf could get +7 Spell pen.

I have been thinking of creating a fleshie wizard to be able to play around with the PM line and held off to see how all the changes in U9 shake out.

and I have the same questions as the OP as I don't have a lot of experience with spell casters. been playing mainly monk, fighters, barbs.

how important is spell pen vs. DC ? I know you want both fairly high but does the cheaper spell pen enhancements for elves now put them in the running against humans?