Developers & Customer Relations & You.

[Rumbaar]

Apparently I need to remind you guys that our developers are not required to post on the forums as part of their job. When they do it, they take time out of their day to communicate with you because they want to. They enjoy talking with you and being transparent, but there have been a growing number of responses like some of the above that will encourage them not to post in the future.

Simply put, we won't tolerate this behavior anymore. Drop the sarcasm, the hostility, and the accusations. If we say something is X, it's because it is. If you want to second guess us, feel free to apply for a job.

Now I agree that there needs to be a level of respect towards the developers, but they are not deities.

As customers of Turbine we have a right to offer our opinions, remarks and feedback in relation to the game. How we see things going, good or bad. I'm not for any Turbine bashing or harassment [when not justified] and I gave mad props to MadFloyd for his very frank response in that thread. It earned him more respect [from me] in that single post than many posts by any other Turbine employee and I have to agree it should have ended there.

But that being said the Developers aren't this special god like entity separate of the DDO community that should be insulated from any feedback, good or bad. Maybe if those at Turbine tasked with Community Relations interacted more or was the voice of the Developers in these thread that actually continued with the discussion and not just disapear once the discussions does not go their way, it wouldn't get so negative or despondent within the posting DDO community.

How many times has a thread been alive with Turbine responses, and then it gets a little too 'real' and it's a ghost town and Turbine seems to put the thread on ignore?

If you want to second guess us, feel free to apply for a job.

DUNGEONS & DRAGONS ONLINE®: Eberron Unlimited™ MMO is a community driven game, without the community it's just doesn't exist simple as that. So having to deal with that community is part of the job of being employed at a MMO gaming company.

We can be a fickle and thankless community, but we can also be a very loyal and tireless supporter of that community as well. So to give that statement a little twist.

If you want to not have to deal with a community based game, feel free to apply for another job.

I like this game, for the most part, I like all that I've had to deal with within Turbine. It gives me great joy, but there are also many times where they just thoroughly annoy and I want to feel that we as a community have the right and the freedom to offer that feedback [good or bad] to improve the game.

I think I can safely say that each and every person here just wants to have the best game they can possible have, and I don't think censorship is a path to achieving that goal. Be it blatant censorship of ideas and feedback to minor censorship of feelings, good or bad.

[der_kluge]

Meh.

3/10 on the rant-o-meter.


Personally, I'm glad that the developers respond to threads, and even if I dislike their answer to something, I'm thankful for their input.

Because I'd hate to just see them all leave the forums because angry mobs show up every time they feel like posting something.

Because yea.. that's what I'd do.

[flynnjsw]

The thing is OP, there is replying, and then there is the sarcastic, rantastic, snarky, and even downright paraniod responses that people give. Yes people have the right to voice any opinion, but as this is owned by Turbine, and rules apply, they don't have the right to make a$$es out of themselves.

[DANTEIL]

As customers of Turbine we have a right to offer our opinions, remarks and feedback in relation to the game.

On face value I think this is a very reasonable post -- HOWEVER, I believe that Tarrant wasn't telling players not to give feedback, but rather he was saying that such feedback shouldn't include

sarcasm, the hostility, and the accusations.

I don't know what it has been like historically, but I have found myself amazed recently at some of the fairly nasty things that people post around here, often directed at Turbine in general and the developers in particular. While I can often understand the frustration, I can't understand how anyone might think that such invective is actually a good/useful/productive way to offer opinions and feedback.

[Rumbaar]

3/10 on the rant-o-meter.

404 no rant found.

This wasn't a rant, just a calm discussion.

Yes, and if you read what I wrote I gave 'mad props' to MadFloyd. But you also get the mob mentality when they only post rarely.

If you post rarely, then you'll be pounced upon as a rare chance to interact. But if they were more regular then there wouldn't be a need or the mentality to pile on, on those rare occasions they do make an appearance.

So I'm sure it can be a Catch 22 situation.

EDIT for follow up pots:

But yes how many times have clear calm and logical posts and threads been totally ignored by Turbine. When the minority/masses see that no mater what they do, either calm or hostile, there is no acknowledgement or action it can cause them to be apathetic and jaded.

Also as political satirists are, sometimes funny, sarcastic and 'rantastic' responses are justified and within reason. I'm sure if you were dealing with a supplier [Turbine are a supplier of services] and they constantly broke the equipment you had ordered and each upgrade didn't go as they planned, then the employees keep making the same excuse time and time again your level of calm and response would shift to anger and contempt.

[Memnir]

Honestly, I found the second to last quote in the OP by Tarrant to be fairly insulting.
He lost a good degree of the respect I had for him with that one, and if that's second guessing him - then ban me.

[Rumbaar]

Honestly, I found the second to last quote in the OP by Tarrant to be fairly insulting.
He lost a good degree of the respect I had for him with that one, and if that's second guessing him - then ban me.

Me too hence the creation of this thread as whole and my follow up comment to it.

I know dealing with customers is a pain and I would never do it. That is why I do not work in the customer service industry and never will. I do not have the PR attitude to deal with customers as most [including me] are just a pain to deal with.

But those that do, have chosen that industry and have to take the good with the bad. I don't envy their responsibility, but I also do not have the sympathy for the fact they've chosen that career.

I like to think that I'm always logical and un-emotional with any issues I have with Turbine and try to keep any personal feelings I have out of issues I have. But we are all human, and it's a hard thing to do at times. I'm sure.

[MeliCat]

some of the nasty spiteful b1tchy comments around here are really unpleasant to read. regardless of who they are to - devs, Turbine, whoever.

now that i've worked out how to use the ignore list (i've never really bothered to work out where it was before now) there are some unpleasant posters out there that i'm adding to it.

and i am not even the target for their invective.

i am disappointed that some that i like and respect for many of their other posts, becuase of the way they are expressing their frustration, i'm going to lose the witty cleverness of their other posts.

[TigrisMorte]

What you fail to understand is that, as a race, human beings are scum. Sure there are bright spots and perhaps it is all just a galactic defense mechanism as we have no "visible" alien overlords, yet, but really, what descent enlightened other worldly being would show up with Venutian ale and sit on your couch to watch, "American Idol"?

While that may all seem off topic, it has a serious vein. I have read a lot of posts. Some are well beyond out right nasty. I mean, "wasteoid screaming at drive through person around 3AM" nasty. And some make that much sense.
I suspect when a dev posts and they get a series of bile laden responses, they don't just think, "why bother." The outcome is dropped on some specific laps with less than gentle courteousness.

so lets stop nuking ourselves and try a more "flies meet honey" approach.

[Akrilus]

What you fail to understand is that, as a race, human beings are scum. Sure there are bright spots and perhaps it is all just a galactic defense mechanism as we have no "visible" alien overlords, yet, but really, what descent enlightened other worldly being would show up with Venutian ale and sit on your couch to watch, "American Idol"?

While that may all seem off topic, it has a serious vein. I have read a lot of posts. Some are well beyond out right nasty. I mean, "wasteoid screaming at drive through person around 3AM" nasty. And some make that much sense.
I suspect when a dev posts and they get a series of bile laden responses, they don't just think, "why bother." The outcome is dropped on some specific laps with less than gentle courteousness.

so lets stop nuking ourselves and try a more "flies meet honey" approach.

lol, keyword: ''yet'' +1

[AbsynthMinded]

On face value I think this is a very reasonable post -- HOWEVER, I believe that Tarrant wasn't telling players not to give feedback, but rather he was saying that such feedback shouldn't include I don't know what it has been like historically, but I have found myself amazed recently at some of the fairly nasty things that people post around here, often directed at Turbine in general and the developers in particular. While I can often understand the frustration, I can't understand how anyone might think that such invective is actually a good/useful/productive way to offer opinions and feedback.

Well.. They could post more of the 'We know we screwed you, we're trying to make sure it doesn't happen again.' Kind of comments.. Or, 'We recognize that the game balance is severely lacking in some classes, quests and content. We expect to address some of it by U-Some reasonable number..' Or many other explanations of we know you're all ****ed about the stuff we ought to have had a handle on by now.

We've gone way beyond useful feedback which by many accounts was flat ignored before the recent u5 chaos. And that is only the most blatantly obvious one, the ignore feedback factor has risen to epic levels over months and the last year. The Combat changes is the epic example of them suddenly shutting down when the hard criticism came and the disbelief that such a change would do what it was being promised to do.

so lets stop nuking ourselves and try a more "flies meet honey" approach.

The general problems is they feed us krap and insult our intelligence rather regularly.. And the mountain of stuff that needs fixing has so much old content in it it's starting to settle like a land fill spewing toxic fumes into the forum atmosphere.. Us be more sweet?

[woundweaver]

well, if that isnt a blatant way to tell us to go screw ourselves, tarrant
said a lot to me about how we are viewed, not that im surprised. i agree some posts are hostile, as are mine from time to time. but if we were taken seriously sometimes, and not ignored a lot, it never would have gotten to this point. and as was said in an above post, if the appearances were more frequent, then the pile on would be decidedly less. if the info was more forthcoming, the replies would be less hostile. people arent just hostile for no reason. people love this game when they start. they arent being ******s if they encounter a bug or problem right away. that only happens after repeated robotic "sorry, i cant help you" responses, or ignored and closed tickets that i guess dont warrant a response. its a two way street. but its your job as a company, and your customer service to go the extra mile to keep people happy and take a minute to help if theres a problem. more so than it is the customers. customer service has turned more than a few away from this game alone. improve customer service and communication, you improve player relations and attitudes. you cant say we dont try to talk to you at turbine. but sometimes we wonder if you have ears or a voicebox.

funny thing is, i asked for a job in testing to help make this game better. you ignored that, too

[Robi3.0]

DDO Community: We need the WDA. We want/deserve more communication.

Meanwhile somewhere else on the forums

Random Dev: response ...........

DDO Communtiy member: OMG you guys don't even have a clue if I did my job like you guys do yours I would get fired.

Random Dev:

RoBi3.0: lol's @ irony /feels for devs

[woundweaver]

and from a sense, tarrant, its kind of a good thing that some of us are that passionate about this game. it shows we care, even if angry sometimes. im pi$$ed all the time at certain things, but im still here. the trick is to keep people caring

[Mirta]

Please leave all suggestions and bug reports here! Turbine appreciates your concerns.

[TigrisMorte]

Look no amount of Neg rep is going to stop me from suggesting that being rude, irrational, or mean is counter productive.

"The general problems ...spewing toxic fumes into the forum atmosphere.. Us be more sweet?"

Yes, because the "spewing toxic fumes" is not going to do anything but create a "problem" for marketing to remove, not solve. Corporations, well any gathering of humans with very specific interests, are never (let me repeat NEVER!) likely to respond well, nor favorably to "outrage" presented complaints.
This is for two reasons;
1: human nature. The natural response to an attack is defense not concerned respectful consideration.
2: Giving in to the "loud brute force" complaint leads to more of the same as it worked.
and
3: There is nothing to be gained by the group for acquiescing. The complainer may feel sated but can not be satisfied. Therefore, for the powers that be it is a loose loose. So the're better off ignoring the "unsatisfiable lout" and performing damage control.
(yes, two reasons.)

In reality, anytime anyone posts an excessively abusive comment, as judged by customer support, I think they should be required to take an hours worth of "CSR the experience". to give them a little perspective.
Nothing in being courteous prevents you from getting your point across and you'll find you get better results.

Since the results thus far are, as you say, "they feed us Crape Suzette and insult our intelligence rather regularly", How's that workin' out for ya'?
Looks to me like the obvious phrase is, "your doing it wrong." Definition of insanity, dude.

So, yes, I think everyone should be "sweet". And if they can't, then simply refrain from speaking until they can.

[The-Last-Wolf]

Hi OP,

Can I start by saying I have no major issues with you post, you were respectfull and raised a number of well thought out and interesting points.

However.......(you could see that coming right?)

You wrote two things that made me want to respond and ask you and the community some questions.

As customers of Turbine we have a right to offer our opinions, remarks and feedback in relation to the game.

Do we? I am not a jurist, however I am unsure of any legal or moral obligation a company has to offer the option to it's customers to provide feedback of any sort. That said, it is of course a very sound business model for a company such as Turbine to create and maintain these forums.

My question therefore is that given the above, should we as a community earn the right to offer opinions and feedback? And shouldn't part of this earning process be following the rules and stipulations of the moderators/owners of said forums?

So having to deal with that community is part of the job of being employed at a MMO gaming company.

It seemed to me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you took a slight offense to the remark made by Tarrant, and that your response is a form of telling off/censure/opinion (I am trying not to put words into your mouth).

This sounds a little like you feel the community has the right to censure Turbine and its employees, but Turbine has no right to censure the community (again, I am not saying this is what you meant to say, just how it read to me).

So my question to the community is. Do you feel we have the right to write posts here calling for censorship of Turbine ?

For the record my answers are Yes we should and no we don't.

Regards
Wolf

PS. please note the above is far more a philisophical discussion rather than any form of attack/defense of the DDO community or Turbine

[Rumbaar]

so lets stop nuking ourselves and try a more "flies meet honey" approach.

From the time I've been here, there are many many threads/post that have tried to attract Turbine with honey. How many constructive responses were made on the Lamannia section of the forums about specific U5 changes and bugs that just seemed to fall on deaf ears. Judging on the product we got with U5. When is it enough?

We've gone way beyond useful feedback which by many accounts was flat ignored before the recent u5 chaos. And that is only the most blatantly obvious one, the ignore feedback factor has risen to epic levels over months and the last year. The Combat changes is the epic example of them suddenly shutting down when the hard criticism came and the disbelief that such a change would do what it was being promised to do.

I have to just look at the "Player Known Issues" thread to see that constructive and repeatative feedback just doesn't seem to be working.

In reality, anytime anyone posts an excessively abusive comment, as judged by customer support, I think they should be required to take an hours worth of "CSR the experience". to give them a little perspective.
Nothing in being courteous prevents you from getting your point across and you'll find you get better results.

So, yes, I think everyone should be "sweet". And if they can't, then simply refrain from speaking until they can.

Not sure what you were trying to say as a whole with your post. But it's not our job to be a CSR, they are and should be trained to deal with all types of situations and customers. Customer Service Representative = CSR?

But I agree much as possible all parties should be civil. But being sweet when a firm response is required will not help any party. Firm constructive praise/criticism is a must.

Do we? I am not a jurist, however I am unsure of any legal or moral obligation a company has to offer the option to it's customers to provide feedback of any sort. That said, it is of course a very sound business model for a company such as Turbine to create and maintain these forums.

My question therefore is that given the above, should we as a community earn the right to offer opinions and feedback? And shouldn't part of this earning process be following the rules and stipulations of the moderators/owners of said forums?

I'll try to response to your questions separately.

Due to the 'FREE' model it can be a grey area, but as soon as you become a registered player of DDO then I, personally, feel you've been give the right to offer feedback/opinions. Turbine has classified, via their business model, that even FREE members are customers. So all customer of the 'service' that Turbine provides are entitled to that right.

Now as a business it is of course up to Turbine to dictate which customers have more 'voice' than others and their business model will eventually dictate that level of voice and whom it might be.

It seemed to me, and please correct me if I am wrong, that you took a slight offense to the remark made by Tarrant, and that your response is a form of telling off/censure/opinion (I am trying not to put words into your mouth).

This sounds a little like you feel the community has the right to censure Turbine and its employees, but Turbine has no right to censure the community (again, I am not saying this is what you meant to say, just how it read to me).

So my question to the community is. Do you feel we have the right to write posts here calling for censorship of Turbine ?

Well as a whole I can't say I took offense, but questioned the thought process behind it. The quote he quoted didn't seem to me to be reflective of the issues he was addressing.

Okay I'll have to admit I did take slight offense to the thought process that we should be 'bowing down' or so in awe that a developer has posted that we should never offer anything by positive responses.

Passionate players will always supply passionate responses, when that well of passionate players dries up. Then we are in trouble.

But ultimately if developers aren't 'required' to post on the forums, those that are tasked [Community Relations] with posting on the forums should be more actively doing so? Dissemination of information is always the issue here, and sometimes Turbine does a great job, sometimes they do a strange job and more often they seem to be very vague and even wrong at times.

[suitepotato]

What Turbine neglects, and indeed outright ignores, is that a sizable chunk of the player base work in IT, and know from the inside what can be done and how, and Turbine then treats those same players as ignorant hicks. Don't whiz on my leg and tell me it is raining. We're not morons. When we get treated like we're idiots and lied to our faces as it were over and over, what do they think we're going to be feeling like? If Turbine doesn't like the players' attitudes, they need to get it through their heads that THEY CREATED THIS SITUATION BY:

• NO TIMELY COMMUNICATION
• REPEATED SIMPLE BUGS NO ONE ELSE WOULD KEEP THEIR JOB AFTER WRITING
• CONSTANT GAME CHANGES
• CONSTANT NERFS OF THINGS PLAYERS LIKE AND ARE SUCCESSFUL WITH
• RANDOM CONTENT ADVANCEMENT
• FAST FIXES OF BUGS THAT BENEFIT PLAYERS - SLOW TO NONEXISTENT FIXES OF BUGS THAT HURT PLAY
• OUTRIGHT BS
• DEAFENING SILENCE AND THREAD KILLS WHEN SOME SUBJECTS ARE BREACHED

I agree with Memnir. Any respect had was lost with that attitude. MF could have simply posted a : P smiley and replied with something about how much more difficult the code would be. Instead, Tarrant leaps in and slams the door with an attitude as if they are beyond the hurly-burly. Right when they take part and start communicating is the WORST time to pull that.

Guess what Turbine? When people pay you money, they take your lack of customer service, lack of perceived giving a darn, your lack of communication, and apparent arrogance very badly. What do think they're going to feel like? Did ANY of you take ANY psych courses at college? Well, I don't think they worked and you should maybe reacquaint yourself with basic human nature.

[Mirta]

• NO TIMELY COMMUNICATION
• REPEATED SIMPLE BUGS NO ONE ELSE WOULD KEEP THEIR JOB AFTER WRITING
• CONSTANT GAME CHANGES
• CONSTANT NERFS OF THINGS PLAYERS LIKE AND ARE SUCCESSFUL WITH
• RANDOM CONTENT ADVANCEMENT
• FAST FIXES OF BUGS THAT BENEFIT PLAYERS - SLOW TO NONEXISTENT FIXES OF BUGS THAT HURT PLAY
• OUTRIGHT BS
• DEAFENING SILENCE AND THREAD KILLS WHEN SOME SUBJECTS ARE BREACHED

Well said. Max reps!