Request: Flurry of Blows

[Taerdra]

Given that it will most likely be too difficult to implement new animations to support 2WF with FoB, I would like to request the following implementation.

1) Flurry of Blows = 15% increase to attack speed, classified as sacred for appropriate stacking purposes. Implement FoB as a toggle and maintain the -2 attack bonus for using it.
2) At level 5, improve the toggle (call it something like Improved Flurry) and reduce the attack penalty to -1.
3) At level 9, improve the toggle such that the attack penalty is reduced to 0.
4) Greater Flurry = 30% increase to attack speed, classified as sacred.

Not sure about the actual percents as I don't have a tested attacks per minute for Kamas. I don't see how they will be able to implement unarmed strike as 2WF, so don't see that as an issue. This in turn will force the monk to make a choice: 1) the most possible attacks at lower base damage with Kama(s) or 2) additional, but less than maximum, attacks with higher base damage unarmed strikes.

[Illuminati]

Hmm, with Rangers Tempest and that toggle on (1 level of Monk) = Over powered =)

Ill take it though =p

[CrimsonEagle]

Hmm, with Rangers Tempest and that toggle on (1 level of Monk) = Over powered =)

Ill take it though =p

Grrrrrrr....now we are going to see a "Nerf Flurry please" threads before monks are even in the game. See what you started!!!!


Lol

[Taerdra]

Hmm, with Rangers Tempest and that toggle on (1 level of Monk) = Over powered =)

Ill take it though =p

I'm not so sure due to horrible crit range and base damage a Kama has. You would not be able to use the toggle without a Monk weapon equipped.

[Illuminati]

Dagger with IC: Pierce = 17-20

And 50% speed increase (25% haste, 10% ranger tempest, 15% toggle = 15 attacks in a sequence at level 16) = Vorpal City.

I am glad I am not a dev atm and have to deal with balancing this sucker. FoB will prob be a cooldown thing that uses all your chi so you have to power it up again.

[Taerdra]

Monks are proficient with daggers, but daggers do not qualify as special monk weapons (cf. http://www.systemreferencedocuments....sage/monk.html).

All special monk weapons in basic 3.5 are crit on 20 and generally d6. Not all that exciting -- the extra attacks are what makes them interesting.

I think your other issue is significant, but is already a problem throughout the game in general. I really don't think this unbalances the game in that respect -- it's already far, far unbalanced in that regard. Second, unless quarterstaffs or new monk weapons are implemented in the game (doesn't seem high priority atm), kamas are slashing. That limits them right there as well. Piercing rules if you are going to try big 5.

[creithne]

Dagger with IC: Pierce = 17-20

And 50% speed increase (25% haste, 10% ranger tempest, 15% toggle = 15 attacks in a sequence at level 16) = Vorpal City.

I am glad I am not a dev atm and have to deal with balancing this sucker. FoB will prob be a cooldown thing that uses all your chi so you have to power it up again.

When did Vorpal daggers get put in?

[Illuminati]

I'm talking Vorp Kama's =p

[EinarMal]

I'm talking Vorp Kama's =p

Heh I've already been collecting a few figuring that flurry might stack with TWF and Tempest weeeeeee.

[Illuminati]

So has everyone on my server =(

My only thing is I wan't a matching pair. Seriously though, I bet you pure class Monks will be pretty solid. It all comes down to flurry of blows.

If they make it dependent on Chi, and with more monk levels you regenerate it faster (also enhancements), ding ding, it will be pretty cool to play one.

[Taerdra]

I have a vorpal(s) on virtually every toon I have. To be honest, they just sit in the bank and collect dust. I've never been beaten in a kill count or DPS situation by someone wielding vorpals on any of my DPS characters. They are useful in very particular situations -- overrated in general. This does make them more useful, but so does haste and tempest and I'm still not impressed.

[Illuminati]

Very true, but I would hate to have to contend with a Fighter/Ranger/Monk with +70 Attack speed with the darn things =p

There is nothing besides a fingered mob at 1% health that ticks me off more than someone rolling a 20 , vorpalling an auto-crit mob with 8 hp left.

[Taerdra]

I'm glad you have much the same exp... I always get worried when I say that as I know lots of people feel differently about vorps.

I still really don't see the attack speed as that big of a deal myself. If you look at the builds out there that are possible at 16:

Monk 11+ = 1.55 speed with Haste and forced to use Kamas
Monk 11+/Fighter 4+ = 1.55 speed with Haste, 1.7 iirc with FHBII, and forced to use Kamas
Monk 10/Ranger 6 = 1.5 speed with Haste and forced to use Kamas
Ranger 16 = 1.35 speed with Haste and able to use Khopeshes
Ranger 14/Fighter 2 = 1.35 with Haste, 1.5 with FHBI, and able to use Khopeshes


After 16, you can achieve 1.7 in various ways but only using Kamas. Ultimately I think 1.55 w/ Kama vs. 1.35 w/ Khopesh (excluding FHB) is still pretty at least close to even, if not still weighted toward the Khopesh.

[Illuminati]

You forgot Ranger 6/Fighter8/Monk2 =P

10% Tempest
15% FoB
25% Fighters Haste Boost III
25% Haste

1.75% increase =) 5x per rest.

Evasion, Tempest, DPS, good saves....hmm, solid looking build there =)

[flynnsane]

I hope FoB isn't a toggle, but an always on and is not dependant on Qi.

I further hope they allow daggers as FoB weapons since they have not implemented the Sai. Thus, Monk will be able to flurry with Pierce weaps as well.

One additional hope is that they give Qstaffs the option of being a double weap for FoB. Dreamspitter would be excellent in this regard (I think that's the one... the staff from the Reaver....)

I doubt they'll do the last 2, though, just as I doubt they'll let FoB stack with TWF. *sigh*

[Taerdra]

You forgot Ranger 6/Fighter8/Monk2 =P

10% Tempest
15% FoB
25% Fighters Haste Boost III
25% Haste

1.75% increase =) 5x per rest.

Evasion, Tempest, DPS, good saves....hmm, solid looking build there =)

Aye, that does look good. If you wanted to compare this to a current Ranger 15/Ftr 1 build, I think you have 1.50 w/ khopesh vs. 1.75 w/ kama, still qualify for Tempest II whenever that happens, and have 4 FEs. The build above would have better defenses, but the R15/F1 build would have a significant advantage in DPS.

Thanks for keeping the conversation going. This was the kind of build comparison I was hoping my suggestion would create to see if it was overpowered.

[Taerdra]

I hope FoB isn't a toggle, but an always on and is not dependant on Qi.

I further hope they allow daggers as FoB weapons since they have not implemented the Sai. Thus, Monk will be able to flurry with Pierce weaps as well.

One additional hope is that they give Qstaffs the option of being a double weap for FoB. Dreamspitter would be excellent in this regard (I think that's the one... the staff from the Reaver....)

I doubt they'll do the last 2, though, just as I doubt they'll let FoB stack with TWF. *sigh*

Always on is a huge mistake imo especially at the early levels. A constant -2 early on a 3/4 BAB class is definitely a negative.

I wouldn't mind allowing other weapons as long as there was a cost to it and it didn't include Khopeshs or 18-20 crit range weapons. The feats in the Eberron book or Flurry enhancements with a lower base value than I've started at would be fine by me. Qstaffs would be awesome.

To me, this is a very cost-effective way to implement FoB in concert with PnP/DDO that doesn't require or run into animation issues. A monk's offense is pretty much composed of FoB and good tactics in my PnP experience. Not to implement FoB with that in mind is a significant mistake imo.

[EinarMal]

Always on is a huge mistake imo especially at the early levels. A constant -2 early on a 3/4 BAB class is definitely a negative.

I wouldn't mind allowing other weapons as long as there was a cost to it and it didn't include Khopeshs or 18-20 crit range weapons. The feats in the Eberron book or Flurry enhancements with a lower base value than I've started at would be fine by me. Qstaffs would be awesome.

To me, this is a very cost-effective way to implement FoB in concert with PnP/DDO that doesn't require or run into animation issues. A monk's offense is pretty much composed of FoB and good tactics in my PnP experience. Not to implement FoB with that in mind is a significant mistake imo.

For an individual build the attack speed that you have is actually irrelevant as to whether or not to go with vorpals. Essentially it comes down to average damage per swing versus the amount of hit points that the mobs have.

A good DPS build might hit 70-90 damage per swing. So vorpals make sense once mobs get more than 1400-1800 hit points. Sadly extreme hit point totals are becoming more and more common.

The other factor are mobs that self heal or cast healing spells on themselves. They often also make using vorpals/con damage the best choice.

If you give monks a fast attack rate, the advantage is you can perhaps ignore DPS entirely and strictly go with vorpals, although the kama limitation will be huge. Monk have a lot of stat requirements so if you can ignore strength (at least somewhat) it would make them easier to build.

I have so little information on monks though to me all of this is idle speculation at this point.

As far as your DPS cannot be out killed by a Tempest with vorpals a quest that I would doubt this is something like Madstone on Elite or the Shroud. It really comes down to how many hit points the mobs have and whether or not they heal/regen.

[Taerdra]

As far as your DPS cannot be out killed by a Tempest with vorpals a quest that I would doubt this is something like Madstone on Elite or the Shroud. It really comes down to how many hit points the mobs have and whether or not they heal/regen.

That makes sense to me. I've never seen this happen in my various runs of either, but I can see how it could be possible at a HP threshold. The only thing I would say is that the math supporting that PoV assumes the distribution of 20 will even out over time to 5% which I agree with in general. However, in game, there are still a significant amount of quests with a "low" (tho compared to PnP any mob total in this game is huge) mob total, splitting targets, etc., which in many cases would make it much more random than 5% both up or down. As I said, I'm not against vorpals or trying to minimize them, just saying imx they seem overrated.

I'm not trying to speculate on what they're doing. I'm making a suggestion as to how they should implement FoB. The whole question of FoB has bugged me ever since someone pointed out the animation limitations and then seeing those limitations impact Superior TWF.

[EinarMal]

I'm not trying to speculate on what they're doing. I'm making a suggestion as to how they should implement FoB. The whole question of FoB has bugged me ever since someone pointed out the animation limitations and then seeing those limitations impact Superior TWF.

Well at this point I am sure it is implemented, my guess is that it will be something like tempest and be some kind of speed boost that you can turn on with a to-hit penalty. Actually what you said would be the way I would have done it as well, but we shall see!

I wonder how they will handle the various monk limited weapons though, I guess like improved ctitical by weapon type, they will modify your speed with the right weapons? What if you had a kama in one hand and a rapier in the other