Battle Cleric is a dead end

[Lizardgrad89]

After Level 10.

Sure, at the early levels, it's fun, but at the higher levels, groups NEED a healbot. Not because they are "gimped", as some BC's like to claim, but because the fights are tough. Battle Clerics that act as healbots aren't as good at healing due to the loss of levels, and if they act as a tank, they are insuring their own death, as the BC in no way could stand alone against the mob that took down the other 5 party members.

As a fighter, since the cleric needs to take Wisdom points for mana, they are lower in str and con, plus are missing bonus fighter feats, and have likely taken enhancesments for cleric as well as fighter, so overall are a less effective fighter.

So what do we have with the Battle Cleric at this stage? A subpar cleric and a subpar fighter. In short, a gimp. By L14, NOBODY will want to group with you.

If you are lucky, you are in a guild where they don't mind taking a BC along. But if you are pugging, it won't be pretty. Groups that bring a BC in thinking they are a cleric will be quite upset when they are allowed to die, and the BC will find their name on a LOT of blacklists.

If the idea here is self-sufficiency, there are ways to do it without gimping your abilities at higher levels.

1) Build a fighter or barb with a splash of bard. Gives you heal wands without gimping the tank ability, plus, you get to fascinate if you really need it.

2) Build a fighter with 3 levels of Pally and 1 level of cleric (need cha for this one). You get pally aura, charisma bonus to saves, immunity to fear and disease, and the cleric splash allows you to throw all the cleric wands and scrolls, and gives you bless and a few other low level goodies. You do lose top fighter enhancements and 2 bonus feats, though.

(WF need to add a splash of sorc to a pure fighter/barb for wands)

The important thing about these builds is you are self sufficient, you are obviously a tank (so there shouldn't be any issues about asked to "healbot") AND you can have a useful toon at higher levels.

IMO, Battle cleric is fine if you just want to run lowbie quests, but it's not viable in the long run.

[Impaqt]

After Level 10.

Sure, at the early levels, it's fun, but at the higher levels, groups NEED a healbot. Not because they are "gimped", as some BC's like to claim, but because the fights are tough. Battle Clerics that act as healbots aren't as good at healing due to the loss of levels, and if they act as a tank, they are insuring their own death, as the BC in no way could stand alone against the mob that took down the other 5 party members.

As a fighter, since the cleric needs to take Wisdom points for mana, they are lower in str and con, plus are missing bonus fighter feats, and have likely taken enhancesments for cleric as well as fighter, so overall are a less effective fighter.

So what do we have with the Battle Cleric at this stage? A subpar cleric and a subpar fighter. In short, a gimp. By L14, NOBODY will want to group with you.

If you are lucky, you are in a guild where they don't mind taking a BC along. But if you are pugging, it won't be pretty. Groups that bring a BC in thinking they are a cleric will be quite upset when they are allowed to die, and the BC will find their name on a LOT of blacklists.

If the idea here is self-sufficiency, there are ways to do it without gimping your abilities at higher levels.

1) Build a fighter or barb with a splash of bard. Gives you heal wands without gimping the tank ability, plus, you get to fascinate if you really need it.

2) Build a fighter with 3 levels of Pally and 1 level of cleric (need cha for this one). You get pally aura, charisma bonus to saves, immunity to fear and disease, and the cleric splash allows you to throw all the cleric wands and scrolls, and gives you bless and a few other low level goodies. You do lose top fighter enhancements and 2 bonus feats, though.

(WF need to add a splash of sorc to a pure fighter/barb for wands)

The important thing about these builds is you are self sufficient, you are obviously a tank (so there shouldn't be any issues about asked to "healbot") AND you can have a useful toon at higher levels.

IMO, Battle cleric is fine if you just want to run lowbie quests, but it's not viable in the long run.

Thank you for that Insightful post... Its kinda odd for such an opinionated person to have such incorrect views on those multiclass builds though.

Splash Bard for Cure Wands? Why would anyone do that when You can splash Ranger or Paly and not lose any of your BAB?

1 Level of cleric does NOT give you access to successfully cast many Cleric scrolls.

Fact of the matter is this..... People dont realize my 13/1 Cleric Paly is a "Battle Cleric" when I pug him.... THats because I can Heal just fine AND dish out damage. If the group decides to explore alternate Tactics int he quest (Zerging Away from me for example) they die and lots their fault. ITs quite likely they will find their way onto my special list before I hit theirs.

This is just another person that grouped with a BAD cleric rather than a Battle Cleric..... Unfortunatly, there seem to be more Bad clerics out there than theyre are true Battle Clerics.

[sigtrent]

I think you are wrong.

There are all kinds of different characters out there. They don't all cleanly into one category or another. There is nothing Gimp about being more of a generalist than a hyper specialist in DDO unless you simply don't know what you are doing. A battle cleric that tries to play like a pure fighter won't do so well, but if they play like a battle cleric (aka a mix of casting and fighting) then they will do fine.

I find the only poor characters are those that don't play to thier strengths, not thier "class strenghts" but thier build strengths. They for some reason just don't understand what they are or arn't good at.

If you played with a useless battle cleric it is much more likely the player lacked skill/knowledge than the build was unworkable. Healing a party does not require any real specilization. A stack of heal scrolls and a few wands is probably enough for any cleric to be an excelent healer if they stay sharp.

Every character is a tool and the job is to use it wisely. A really strong healer is a great party asset, but so is a versitile healer/fighter. People so rarely tell eachother what their character is abbout and so often simply assume what people do based on their class. Do tell, Do ask. Find out what your party is and work accordingly.

[miceelf88]

I am only 11 on my highest char (nearly 12, but holding off on advancing til I explore level 11 more fully). I don't think my char is a battle cleric, but it's closer to that than to a healbot. Much closer to how most PnP clerics operate. I do fine in group, even with my slowly developing playskill. On some quests, when the group I am with is overmatched or not that tactical, I DO spend most of my time healing, but even then I am usually at least trying to get aggro of the mobs that break past the tanks and are on the casters. if it's a level appropriate quest and a good group, I do a lot of fighting, and some crowd control/damage spells.

The only time I feel like a healbot is in the situations where there's a chance of everyone dying and I need to be sure to be able to rez (beholders on elite), where I just hide and wait for the ghosts to come back to me.

I have run with a battle cleric, too. He pulled his weight. The only problem with him was we were doing redundant heals. So clearly him being able to heal folk wasn't a huge issue.

[Ringos]

I can understand what the OP is getting at, although as others point out, it's the person behind the character making it good or gimp. I run my clerics to melee when they can, but healing is always priority #1 and I step out of the fight when needed to keep people alive. I can see that some may not share this attitude, and party members may fall while the battle cleric is still swingin' away, causing the party to be upset.

I think a lot of issues can be averted by simply talking about things up front, whether it be raid loot or how you play your character. If you join a party, let people know how you 'roll' and you can part company if it's not what they were looking for.

[Aspenor]

If your character requires a healbot in party, it might be time to consider a reroll.

[Deragoth]

If your character requires a healbot in party, it might be time to consider a reroll.

I was just thinking that...

[Mad_Bombardier]

1 Level of cleric does NOT give you access to successfully cast many Cleric scrolls.

Sure it does. Even splashing 1Cleric gives a chance to use L1-6 Cleric scrolls. Granted it's a 5% chance for L6 Heal scrolls, but it's a chance. Likewise, it's a 25% chance to use Raise Dead scrolls.

To the OP. I'm sorry you grouped with or created an inept Battle Cleric. It has everything to do with player inability and nothing to do with build. Healing output is one of the least variable things in this game regardless of build. And while I have grouped with bad Clerics, I have grouped with FAR more bad players of other classes.

[FluffyDucky]

Battle clerics are weaker at melee than pure melee characters but so are wizards/sorcerers but I doubt you consider them 'gimped'. How many fighters can cast command, blade barrier, slay living, etc. Reduced melee ability is more than offset by the offensive casting abilities. A few points less to hit/damage doesn't mean much if the mob is on his back helpless or severely damaged or dead before he gets within swinging range. Add in self buffs, self healing, and the ability to heal/raise other party members when needed and battle clerics do just fine at higher levels. Battle clerics have a very nice blend of good offensive casting ability, decent melee ability, and excellent survivability that can't be matched by any other class.

The only problem with battle clerics is the community's view that the only 'proper' role for a cleric is heal-bot. If your fighter can't stay alive without a dedicated healer backing him up then it's your character that's gimped, not the cleric I ran with an all cleric group a few times and it was great; spells flying, weapons swinging, and not one call of 'HEAL ME!!!' It's especially fun in undead heavy quests where you can use mass cures to heal your party and damage the undead with a single spell.

If you need a nanny cleric by all means invite one to your group, but don't be afraid to fill one of the fighter or caster slots with a battle cleric. He will more than pull his weight and when needed will be a much better healer than your splash paladin with a wand.

[Impaqt]

Sure it does. Even splashing 1Cleric gives a chance to use L1-6 Cleric scrolls. Granted it's a 5% chance for L6 Heal scrolls, but it's a chance. Likewise, it's a 25% chance to use Raise Dead scrolls.

I should of said "Reliably" instead of Successfully I guess.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I should of said "Reliably" instead of Successfully I guess.

Ok, nice clarification. I can't bear to go through a stack of Raise Dead scrolls on my Ranger/Cleric (always rolling <15, here ). But, I do it when needed to raise the Cleric.

[Dogchair]

I know you are frustrated man. I think its at the wrong sources tho.

1. Be mad at the person who built your party without a healbot, if you think thats needed.
2. Be mad at the person who misrepresented himself as a healbot, when he was a BC.

I don't believe you have run with either a...
very well built, BC
or a
very well played BC.

One of the biggest misconceptions is filling your healbot slot with a BC. One of the biggest misrepresentations is the BC not sharing that he's a BC.

I'm not gonna tell you how to play your game, but Ill share how I play mine.
I build almost every toon like I'm not gonna have a healer present during critical moments.
I PUG alot.
I ask clerics if they heal or fight, and which they prefer to do.
I use the LFM to describe what I want. If good players drop into my PUG, a BC is ok, most if not all of us are self-sufficient. If the tanks are ok, or if most people dont know the quest, etc... i get a healbot, or i get on my cleric Dogchair.

hope this helps.
-Dogchair
Ghallandra

[Nick_RC]

I dont even know where to begin. In fact i wont because i really dont need too. March 06 wants its post back. If you cant play without a cleric past level 10 you definately need to do something different.

Rage

After Level 10.

Sure, at the early levels, it's fun, but at the higher levels, groups NEED a healbot. Not because they are "gimped", as some BC's like to claim, but because the fights are tough. Battle Clerics that act as healbots aren't as good at healing due to the loss of levels, and if they act as a tank, they are insuring their own death, as the BC in no way could stand alone against the mob that took down the other 5 party members.

As a fighter, since the cleric needs to take Wisdom points for mana, they are lower in str and con, plus are missing bonus fighter feats, and have likely taken enhancesments for cleric as well as fighter, so overall are a less effective fighter.

So what do we have with the Battle Cleric at this stage? A subpar cleric and a subpar fighter. In short, a gimp. By L14, NOBODY will want to group with you.

If you are lucky, you are in a guild where they don't mind taking a BC along. But if you are pugging, it won't be pretty. Groups that bring a BC in thinking they are a cleric will be quite upset when they are allowed to die, and the BC will find their name on a LOT of blacklists.

If the idea here is self-sufficiency, there are ways to do it without gimping your abilities at higher levels.

1) Build a fighter or barb with a splash of bard. Gives you heal wands without gimping the tank ability, plus, you get to fascinate if you really need it.

2) Build a fighter with 3 levels of Pally and 1 level of cleric (need cha for this one). You get pally aura, charisma bonus to saves, immunity to fear and disease, and the cleric splash allows you to throw all the cleric wands and scrolls, and gives you bless and a few other low level goodies. You do lose top fighter enhancements and 2 bonus feats, though.

(WF need to add a splash of sorc to a pure fighter/barb for wands)

The important thing about these builds is you are self sufficient, you are obviously a tank (so there shouldn't be any issues about asked to "healbot") AND you can have a useful toon at higher levels.

IMO, Battle cleric is fine if you just want to run lowbie quests, but it's not viable in the long run.

[EinarMal]

I think a better question is are tanks and non-casters doomed not clerics or battle clerics for that matter.

What group isn't better by removing a tank and adding another caster who knows what they are doing. I will take self sufficient Bards, Wizards, Sorcs, and Clerics of any sort over another fighter who is basically dead weight and needs constant healing to kill anything.

With a couple of casters no fight is that tough as you are using CC and insta kill spells plus insane DPS to rip through mobs. Seriously all caster parties are the way to go at higher levels. You will be lucky if your fighter can even find a group.

[Nick_RC]

Agreed. Theres only a handful of quests where i can think you would be better suited with a traditional party. Tor, most of the raids.... i draw a blank at anymore at the moment. Thats my way of thinking and a big part of why i made Grunndle. A completely self reliant intimitank. What caster would turn down a tank that they never need to buff that pulls all the agro off them??? UMD sorcs FTW. We have 2 amasing rogues in our guild that clerics better than most clerics as well as using w/p weapons to deadly effect...id take him over a 'tank' ANY day of the week.

Traditional non self reliant tanks are a drain in nearly every respect. I barely run my barb anymore because despite dishing out severe dps I can do it more efficiently, faster and less expensively with my casters and Battleclerics. I dont need a crutch.

To the OP - heres a better idea replace your traditional tanks with battleclerics/grunndles and see how the party performs. You take out the spot 'dedicated' for a healbot (which i consider gimped anyhow) and fill it with another arcane/bard/offensive casting cleric. Now THAT is efficient. instead of 5 people doing the work and one person simply patching up you have all 6 contributing.

I think a better question is are tanks and non-casters doomed not clerics or battle clerics for that matter.

What group isn't better by removing a tank and adding another caster who knows what they are doing. I will take self sufficient Bards, Wizards, Sorcs, and Clerics of any sort over another fighter who is basically dead weight and needs constant healing to kill anything.

With a couple of casters no fight is that tough as you are using CC and insta kill spells plus insane DPS to rip through mobs. Seriously all caster parties are the way to go at higher levels. You will be lucky if your fighter can even find a group.

[Strakeln]

Sure, at the early levels, it's fun, but at the higher levels, groups NEED a healbot.

I stopped right here. No, groups at higher levels don't need a healbot... only the gimps who can't walk 20 feet without a cleric at their side.

If someone needs a cleric, that someone has a gimped build. That might have been excusable back in the day, but not nowadays.

[Ironik]

I didn't even read much of this. All I have to say is my PURE Cleric at high levels does just as well as fighters a level or two lower then her, AND casts spells, AND heals and has an AC just as high as any tank. The real fact is this: Clerics are EXTREMELY powerful in PnP and just as much so in DDO. They get decent BAB, Spells, and the ability to use armor/simple weapons. Clerics are amazingly powerful.

IMO if you 'splash' a cleric you're hurting them more then not because you're losing one of thier greatest strenghts, diversity. But hey, what do I know. Really, I hope this gets fixed in 4.0 (even though we won't see that in DDO).

Never the less, people like to Multi class and thats fine. But, I really think the Cleric can hold her own, in almost all situations, without it.




Ironik, Wreaking havoc in countless DnD realms for 15 or so years.

[SaberMonkey]

I don't agree with you, I run with quite a few really, really good battle clerics. Making one myself in fact. Parties these days need to be more self sufficent, quite a few times we have run high level quests with no cleric, or just a battle cleric to provide emergency heals. It comes down to player skill and party make up.

[Ghoste]

High level characters most definitely do not "need" a healbot.

The people who do are the same ones who have needed a healbot from level 1.

The same ones who just stand around confused, wondering why their health bar isn't going up, not realizing they can do something about it themselves.

The same ones who don't realize there are ways to approach fights other than to just run in without even bother to check whether the rest of the party has their back.

The same ones I am very content to let die when playing my cleric.

Please don't post stuff like this. People need the forums to be a place where they can go to get ideas/advice to play their characters even better, not encouragement to be weaker and rely on healbots more heavily. This kind of post only serves to weaken its readers.

[oronisi]

This is just another person that grouped with a BAD cleric rather than a Battle Cleric..... Unfortunatly, there seem to be more Bad clerics out there than theyre are true Battle Clerics.

There are more BAD everything than there are good ones. It just so happens that people harp on the bad clerics because they like to blame them for their own crappy characters' faults. It's easy to point the finger at the cleric since he/she is the one that is supposedly watching the health bar. Too bad people forget the simple fact that THEY SHOULD BE WATCHING THEIR OWN HEALTH BAR TOO!