Do the devs realize the new Extend Spell change hurts paladins and rangers?

[gpk]

It's gotten lost in the recent discussions of other topics, but i wonder:
do the devs realize the new Extend Spell change hurts paladins and rangers?

Paladins and Rangers with extend Spell are getting hurt because the majority of their spell are level 1 and 2, Paladin especially are getting hurt because the spell they cast the most, divine favor is a level 1 spell. Other casters have gotten much love with the addition of many extra spell points and now even more with the new metamagic changes.

Paladins and Rangers however got NO spell points and are effectively losing spell points now due to the new Extend Spell flat cost. Please consider how this will affect us Rangers and Paladins (all of the ones I know have the Extend Spell feat).

Please consider a cheap 1-2 point low prerequesite+low level enhancement (as others have suggested) called "Paladin/Ranger extend spell" to keep the cost of extend as it is now or tossing us 120+ extra spell points to counteract the change.
At the very least I think a free dragonshard to Rangers/Pallies w/ Extend Spell would be warranted as it would be a waste of a feat under the new metamagic system.

I implore you please don't forget about us spell level 1-2 casters!

gpk

[Cavalier]

Not all Paladins have Extend Spell. I have 2, a L14 and an L11 and neither do. They do VERY fine without it and they are, quite literally, a SECONADARY spellcasting class.

We already benefit from having our Paladin Level = Our Caster Level, so this is a very minor thing. A well built Paladin who is not min/max'd will have enough spell points to counteract this. I have 490 on my L14 and my L12 has 295 without the +6 WIS helm my L14 Pally has.

[DasLurch]

The Bards get hit a bit with this as well. We tend to cast a lot of level 1-3 spells. They hurt a bit more on extend now....

[JosephKell]

I would rather they change the metamagic to be +% or flat cost, whichever is lower

[pastor_dex]

I don't use extend, but the fact you now have a wasted feat of it due to changes about to be made after such a long time of it being a certain way, meansTurbine does have a responsibility to provided compensation.

Hopefully they will own up to the obligation and do something.

[gpk]

Not all Paladins have Extend Spell. I have 2, a L14 and an L11 and neither do. They do VERY fine without it and they are, quite literally, a SECONADARY spellcasting class.

We already benefit from having our Paladin Level = Our Caster Level, so this is a very minor thing. A well built Paladin who is not min/max'd will have enough spell points to counteract this. I have 490 on my L14 and my L12 has 295 without the +6 WIS helm my L14 Pally has.

A paladin whot took Mental Tougness over Extend, has more than 20 Wis w/ a +6 item or took many SP enhancements over the Aura's, CHA and LOH is not what many would consider a "well built" paladin.
I'm at 425 at 20 wisdom, 125 SP item and 20 from enhancements (add another 75 for me , spell storinf ring. I also passed on 2 x +3 Wisdom tomes that I won, so that coulda been a tad more sp), hardly the min max and the effective loss of 100+ SPs is still gonna hurt. Keep in mind 425 (500 w/ SP ring) is far above the average SP for a typical pally build which tends to be round 325 +- 25.

P.S. How is your Holy mount doing ? Keeping it well fed I hope?

[Gimpster]

Not all Paladins have Extend Spell. I have 2, a L14 and an L11 and neither do. They do VERY fine without it and they are, quite literally, a SECONADARY spellcasting class.

Obviously paladins are secondardy spellcasters- but they are a "PRIMARY" combat class; and it is through Divine Favor that they are able to fill that role.

[GeneralDiomedes]

I'll just respec Extend for Mental Toughness on my Ranger and continue as per normal.

I'm just glad I didn't take that level of Wizard I was contemplating ..

[gpk]

I'll just respec Extend for Mental Toughness on my Ranger and continue as per normal.

I'm just glad I didn't take that level of Wizard I was contemplating ..

Ya worse comes to worse I'd like to respec it too (and still effectively lose out on SP). I hope there's a Dragonshard in my mailbox com mod5!

Yep as Gimpster had pointed out in another thread, what about those poor fighter types that took Wiz1 for the metamagic feat (extend shield)? SOL huh.

[Snike]

The big difference:

OLD extend: +50% cost for x2 duration, for a 10sp buff... +5sp more

New extend: x2 duration... +10sp more

I was wondering why extend was just as expensive as empower and I really wondered why more people did make post complaining about this long before when it was first anounced.

For a paladin doing a round on 1 resist buffs on a group it's +30sp more than it was before the change.

[gpk]

Scenario: 20 minute run before shrine:
BEFORE:

10x extended Divne Favors: 10*15=150
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*23=184
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 38=76
150+184+76=410 SP
410 SP is more than the typical Paladin has, lets assume pally has good Wis, magi item maybe 20 more SPs from enhancement, its kinda achievale though not typical.
This of course doesnt include ANY dispelled spell recasts.

AFTER
10x extended Divne Favors: 10*20=200
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*25=200
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 35=70
200+200+70=470 SP

60 SP point Diff so far.

Let's factor in say 4 dispelled DFs,4 dispelled resists, 1 dispelled DW that need to be recast:

Old Extend:

410 SP + 4 * 15 + 4 * 23 + 38=600

New Extend

470 + 4 * 20 + 4 * 25 + 35=685

685-600=85 SP Difference betweeon old and new system.

For the sake of argument let's assume this is a quasi-typical scenario.
Of course one could argue you may not recast extended version of the spell after dispell but one could also argue that you're more likely to fail a concentration check when recasting in combat, and if anything you are twice as likely to fail a conc check for DF.

That's more than a 30 SP difference with the added downside of possibly casting more DFs during combat, spending time on cast and risking more interruptions. Little bit here, little bit there; it adds up very fast.

gpk

[sigtrent]

It would be thoughtfull if they gave characters a re-spec who have one or more meta magic feats. It does change the math for folks.

Over all I like the change but I'm biased as I have a number of caster characters that use it, none of them pure pallys or rangers. (most of my hybrid casters don't bother with extend anyway since they are using feats for something other than spellcasting)

[joker965]

I have a cleric with 4 metamagic feats and a paladin with the extend feat. I don't really care that DF will cost 5 more spell points a cast . This is a huge boost for primary casters that are using 3+ level spells mostly.

[Cupcake]

I have a lvl 13 Ranger and a low level pally. Neither of them has extend or any other mega feat.

[Snike]

Examples you guys give don't show resists. Really at higher levels rangers and paladins are covering resists to help save clerics mana. I think that is where extend is used most and will have the biggest impact.

[Gimpster]

I have a cleric with 4 metamagic feats and a paladin with the extend feat. I don't really care that DF will cost 5 more spell points a cast . This is a huge boost for primary casters that are using 3+ level spells mostly.

Have you noticed how important is is for primary casters to keep level 2 spells like Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Cold, Resist Acid, and Blur on all party members continuously?

Extending those spells will no longer be the cost-saver it is today.

[Vordax]

Have you noticed how important is is for primary casters to keep level 2 spells like Resist Fire, Resist Lightning, Resist Cold, Resist Acid, and Blur on all party members continuously?

Extending those spells will no longer be the cost-saver it is today.

There really isn't a lot of quests where you need to extend 1min/lvl buffs. Usually a shrine comes along before then or the buff gets dispelled.

Vordax

[Impaqt]

its sad really.... THis is the worst thing people could come up with to complain about so far?

WOrst case scenarion.. DOuble the Duration for DOuble the Cost.... You arent losing anything versus Casting the buff Twice. You just arent gaining any like you were before. Your not saving any spell points by Dropping Extend.

[Vua]

Scenario: 20 minute run before shrine:
BEFORE:

10x extended Divne Favors: 10*15=150
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*23=184
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 38=76
150+184+76=410 SP
410 SP is more than the typical Paladin has, lets assume pally has good Wis, magi item maybe 20 more SPs from enhancement, its kinda achievale though not typical.
This of course doesnt include ANY dispelled spell recasts.

AFTER
10x extended Divne Favors: 10*20=200
8x extended resists (pal lev 2 spell, self and 1 other): 8*25=200
2x extended Deathward: 2 * 35=70
200+200+70=470 SP

60 SP point Diff so far.

Let's factor in say 4 dispelled DFs,4 dispelled resists, 1 dispelled DW that need to be recast:

Old Extend:

410 SP + 4 * 15 + 4 * 23 + 38=600

New Extend

470 + 4 * 20 + 4 * 25 + 35=685

685-600=85 SP Difference betweeon old and new system.

For the sake of argument let's assume this is a quasi-typical scenario.
Of course one could argue you may not recast extended version of the spell after dispell but one could also argue that you're more likely to fail a concentration check when recasting in combat, and if anything you are twice as likely to fail a conc check for DF.

That's more than a 30 SP difference with the added downside of possibly casting more DFs during combat, spending time on cast and risking more interruptions. Little bit here, little bit there; it adds up very fast.

gpk

I understand extending resists and deathward as a pally. I don't necessarily agree with the need for it but I understand it. Other than 2-3 situations in the game, I don't understand extending divine favor at all. Most fights don't last long enough to justify doing it, and if you have to, it may be for 1 fight in a dungeon. So you have 10x extended divine favors per quest. Seems like a big waste of spell points right off the bat since 60-70% of that is spent finding mobs to kill.

Not to be rude. Why in the world are you extending buffs when you know they can be dispelled? Seriously this is just stupid IMO and you deserve to be left with no spell points. As far as failing concentration checks, bleh. While you may be a good melee Paladin, you are going to get a break in combat to recast your divine favor or resists if they get dispelled or run out. And honestly, if you are actually built to fight a little bit, you should be able to finish a fight without divine favor on occasion.

[BUpcott]

its sad really.... THis is the worst thing people could come up with to complain about so far?

WOrst case scenarion.. DOuble the Duration for DOuble the Cost.... You arent losing anything versus Casting the buff Twice. You just arent gaining any like you were before. Your not saving any spell points by Dropping Extend.

BUT THE MATH LOOK AT THE MATH!!! LoL

/agree

Oh no 20sp for a 2 min Divine Favor or 10sp for a 1 min one.
As for resists since 30 resists are the preferred anyways, that has you looking at a min lvl 11 caster, with 11 min resist; can;t really think of anywhere that I truly need a 22 min resist. usually hit a shrine before then anyways. So I really don't see what the complaint is about. And have to agree with Alandale that this is one of the worst things I have seen people complain about so far.