How do Clerics heal better than FvS?

Dear Lord, I do not want to start a thread of flames, but I just don't get this. People keep saying that Clerics are vastly better at healing than FvS. I've tried to figure out how, but I have not been successful so far. I'm about to roll a FvS healer. Please help me avoid the error of my ways.

The only thing that I've seen that would make Clerics better is that they get their spells one level earlier than FvS.

So, the Cleric and Favored Soul spell lists are identical. Clerics get a free healing spell selection at each level, but FvS can certainly take that healing spell as well - they just have to use one of their slots. FvS appear to have the same healing amplifying Enhancements (Improved Empower Healing Spell, Cleric Life Magic, Prayer of Life, and Wand and Scroll Mastery). Clerics and FvS can get the same items/equipment. Clerics should expect to have higher DCs for their offensive spells, but I don't see many people making saving thows against their party's heal spells...

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

nothing makes clerics better

the only thing where clerics are better then favsouls is turn undead. and we all know how flawed that is

The only thing that i can think of, what would make a cleric a better choice is that if you want to have most buffs, combatspells and healingspells you wont be able to take every healing spell in the list and so the cleric will be able to spam them faster then a FvS.

But if you work on your spell selection a little this realls isnt much of an issue.

fvs don't have improved empower healing enhancement line. they have improved empower spell. imo they heal equally well if equipped for it. fvs got the benefit of more sp and can afford to leave quicken on all the time.

Clerics get the spells one level earlier (not a huge deal), get all the Cure line of spells for free (so they have all the mass cures, and have plenty of room for buffs. My FvS is very delayed and restricted in which buffs to take when: just got Deathward at level 16 and only has mass cure light so far).
Clerics get enhancements to reduce the cost of (the already low cost on) Empower Healing, the only meta that works on Heal and Mass Heal.
Clerics can spend turns to do Divine Healing (minor heal over time), Divine Cleansing (remove disease/poison/etc), and/or Divine Vitality (restore some of another casters SP).
And, if a certain spell is needed that they don't normally carry, they can swap out and get it. They just have a lot more versatility over a FvS in terms of buffs and whatnot. As far as pure healing goes, it doesn't matter between the two usually. Clerics are going to be more efficient, but FvS have the sp to throw around.

I think it deals with that if a favor soul spell selection. Sure if he can cast that level of spell they may have not taken it yet. But as a heal bot, a FVS wins easy, but no one needs a heal bot.

Ok, so for the most part, straight up healing a FvS can do as well as a cleric. Up until recently, clerics had a little more ability to do what I call pre-emptive healing with CC spells such as cometfall and the like. While all the same spells are available to both classes, the expanded list from which clerics cast (spells available for casting) makes them a little better for this since you can have all of your healing spells, slay living, destruction, BB, implosion, etc, etc. It seems that spell penetration has been a little harder to get off as of recent, so you may do better as a FvS since you should have more spell points.

MY FvS keeps parties alive and running just as easily as my old cleric. Scroll or spell it makes no difference. Only difference I've seen is in Pugs, my FvS can now be in front doing more offensive casting as I have a blue bar that says "Just Do It!"

There's no I'm better than the other. A person who likes a massive spell point pool and doesn't differ the spells they use will go FvS. A person who likes to be laid back and take it easy will go cleric :p

Point is, it's preference, not the class.

FvS: More SP, less spells, have to pay to re-learn spells preciously chosen, and therefore not as flexible as clerics. FvS that are heal specced are just as good healers though.

Clerics are preferred healers IMO, because they can re-learn spells at a tavern for free, get an extra spell slot to represent domain spells (always a heal spell of some type) and can do nifty things like turn undead and Divine Vitality.

FvS get more SP though.

not so much now since FS have been around a while & theres TR too, but partly the perceptions may have been from earlier on when a high-level cleric was considered superior since they'd presumably just have more experience with the role than others who might have taken FS more as a "oh neat, a paladin with better spell selection" & played mostly as melee dps type with uber self-sufficiency when they 1st came out.

In answering this question there are two main aspects to consider. One, the leveling up process. This one isn't important to me, as I'm a vet who has levelled many toons to cap and knows the way to do it fast. Two, is what the game is like at endgame. This is what is important to me. You will have to decide what is important as far as you are concerned.

The main reason, I believe, people like clerics during the levelling up process like is you run into many FS that don't have the normal spells that make quests easier as you level. You often run into more melee specced FS in the under 10th level range, that are hopeless as far as healing and buffing. This has given FS a bad rep in this level range.

At endgame there are vistages of this but it is still the main problem of spell selection. I lead raids all the time, and I would rather have a cleric every single time. Case in point. You can do VoD on hard with a single cleric, you are taking your chances with a FS. Ever been clearing the way to find out the FS doesn't have deathward? Now you need another healer just for Deathward. So the deal is that FS can be quite good healers if they spec for it, but players quite readily grow tired of being a nanny and start to spread their wings (d@mn, that was good!). So you mostly run into FS that just don't have the spell selection to handle things as well as a cleric. The two most problematic spell levels are level 6 and level 8. Most FS don't carry Mass cure critical wounds (level 8), which is the most efficient mass cure at endgame (Amarath belts make it awesome). A cleric can go forever with this and empower healing.

The other main difference at endgame is the cleric capstone, which is very useful in epic situations, the abbott, and ToD. It is also very useful, just in general in most quests. The capstone for the FS is rather wimpy in endgame group oriented situations. Many FS end up burning mana to quickly to use it, because they leave on empower and maximize to make it useful but burn mana too fast on their masses because they left it on.

Another thing that distinguishes FS from Clerics is metamagics. FS tend to get empower instead of empower healing, because their enhancement lines favor this. Empower doesn't work on the heal spell or mass heal, and it is less efficient. That being said you run into alot of clerics that have empower instead of empower healing. Empower healing is much more useful than empower at endgame in group situations with barbarians with 900 hp and warforged with 85% healing amp in a good situation and often less. A cleric can easily solo heal a barb in ToD part 3 as the main tank, and give him the capstone just in case.

All that being said, I recommend FS for all beginning healbots. The mana is nice until you learn how to heal efficiently and/or get the items that make mana no longer a concern. I think many get enamored with the FS mana, but it really is a non-issue. Videos are out on these forums showing just how irrelevant this mana bonus is at endgame. Most of the inner circle of endgamers have known this for a long time, but you still get many that are still FS just for mana reasons. The real bonus of FS is saving throws and wings. Just get some advice on spell selection from your guildies as you level, and keep in mind scrolls and wands are the way to go on a FS. Once you have healing down and are getting bored being someones babysitter, you can become a less powerful healer and diversify your spell selection as a FS, or true reincarnate into a cleric. As long as your spell selection is good, FS can handle most content just as well as a cleric in a healbot capacity, its in elite raids and epic content that you see the difference.

I have two capped clerics and a capped FS, all with greensteele and raid gear. In my mind, my clerics are much more potent toons because of versatility. My clerics can be what they need to be to fill the aspect of the group that is missing, while still healing the group as needed. As far as solo play, I have never had an issue killing stuff on my clerics, and they can do it better than my FS on epic (because of BB DCs and capstone).

Anyways, this is my take on it based upon my experience.

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

I have two capped clerics and a capped FS, all with greensteele and raid gear. In my mind, my clerics are much more potent toons because of versatility. My clerics can be what they need to be to fill the aspect of the group that is missing, while still healing the group as needed. As far as solo play, I have never had an issue killing stuff on my clerics, and they can do it better than my FS on epic (because of BB DCs and capstone).

Anyways, this is my take on it based upon my experience.

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sorry to burst your bubble but what makes clerics more versatile?
the spellselection cant be it as there arent even enough useful divine spells that fav souls will ever run into a problem

FVS > Cleric any day.

All other things being equal a FVS will out preform a cleric. More SP, Leap of faith, DR 10 silver, +10 fire/cold/lightning resist.

Meele or caster builds, if you make them exactly the same the FVS will be better every time.

The poor selection in divine spell list is not is valid reason to pick cleric over FVS. FVS requires more experience to play as well, 2500 favor to be exact. You can buy FVS and at that point you can roll one up and still be new to the game. On average you will have a MORE experienced player behind a FVS.

They don't.

Sorry, but between 800 more SP and free CLW, FVS > Cleric.

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Originally Posted by Bloodhaven

On average you will have a MORE experienced player behind a FVS.

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I was like all agreeing, man, I think I nodded my head sometimes...(ok the FvS > Cleric I disagree with), but then you said this......and I felt like all betrayed and stuff....

The only way cleric = Favored soul is if said cleric rerolls as a Fvs.

Once clerics get domains they might have to offer something FvS don't otherwise a FvS gets the nose first in almost all areas that matter.

Hard pressed to do better than a FvS assuming similar builds.

FvS=More Mana,no access to divine enhancements

Currently divine enhancements are ..meh.. when the PRE's for clerics get relesed there may be some good perks for clercis with Domain lines, but not really worthwhile holding your breath for those to come out.

Only thing I see is FvS try to spread themselves too thin trying to achieve MELEE(STR/DEX), MANA(CHA), and DC's(WIS) when they can realistically only really maintain 2 of the 3. Decide your path and stick to it.

Empower healing vs Empower, my clerics all dropped the EMP Heal for EMP, Empower works on all spells except Heal and Mass Heal(slow timer), who cares if you can hit a Barbarian for 1700 hp of heal when he has 950hp. Effecient healing is more usefull, rather cast 2 Heals when he falls below half then wait until he is almost dead before power healing him.

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

Hard pressed to do better than aFvs assuming similar builds.

FvS=More Mana,no access to divine enhancements

Currently divine enhancements are ..meh.. when the PRE's for clerics get relesed there may be some good perks for clercis with Divinity lines, but not really worthwhile holding your breath for those to come out.

Only thing I see is FvS try to spread themselves too thin trying to achieve MELEE(STR/DEX), MANA(CHA), and DC's(WIS) when they can realistically only really maintain 2 of the 3. Decide your path and stick to it.

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though going with more then 14 starting cha is wasting buildpoints as for every 2 more cha (which is 4 and 6 buildpoints) you only get 29 more sp at lvl20 and thats not worth it

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Originally Posted by Visty

though going with more then 14 starting cha is wasting buildpoints as for every 2 more cha (which is 4 and 6 buildpoints) you only get 29 more sp at lvl20 and thats not worth it

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Hey 29 extra sp with the vet item set sp clickie is an extra empowered / maxx'd bb :p
Because that's a good enough reason to do it :D

But yeah, sp comes from better places than trying to waste build points on cha.

We've derailed slightly though, the OP was who's a better healer.....I say none.

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Originally Posted by Visty

sorry to burst your bubble but what makes clerics more versatile?
the spellselection cant be it as there arent even enough useful divine spells that fav souls will ever run into a problem

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Except at L6. I'm having a hard time making spell selections there. Other than that, still more spell slots than I need by high level.

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Originally Posted by Lorien_the_First_One

Except at L6. I'm having a hard time making spell selections there. Other than that, still more spell slots than I need by high level.

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It gets even worse when you multiclass. I feel bad for those evasion FvSes.

I'm not really going to debate this yet again. I'm simply offering my side of the arguement with my rationale behind it. Readers can take it into consideration when deciding what to do. Those that have already made up their mind, I'm not going to even try to disuade you. You'll have to learn for yourself. There are some items that I thought beginning to medium experience players may have been lead astray buy. So I'll address them:

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All other things being equal a FVS will out preform a cleric. More SP, Leap of faith, DR 10 silver, +10 fire/cold/lightning resist.

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I've addressed the SP issue, but here is some more:

The mana difference is a low benefit for me going into the insignificant realm: The 600 - 800 mana difference between the two is accurate. However, 1) mana efficiency lowers the real value of this, 2) even at elite levels this mana isn't needed on a well played cleric, 3) pots and end game items really make this difference inconsequential (you don't need the mana almost all of the time, when you do reserves of pots/bauble/epic ring/vile blasphemy are very substantial - I have 100s of them because I never need them), 4) scroll and wand use save both classes the same amount of mana, and 5) there are items in the game (DQ Torc and concordiant opposition greensteel) that give you 100s of mana (1000s if you work at it) on a typical quest, which is the same on a FS or a cleric.

The DR and stacking resists are insignificant on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? That's just funny. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics sneer at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

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Currently divine enhancements are ..meh.. when the PRE's for clerics get relesed there may be some good perks for clercis with Domain lines, but not really worthwhile holding your breath for those to come out.

Only thing I see is FvS try to spread themselves too thin trying to achieve MELEE(STR/DEX), MANA(CHA), and DC's(WIS) when they can realistically only really maintain 2 of the 3. Decide your path and stick to it.

Empower healing vs Empower, my clerics all dropped the EMP Heal for EMP, Empower works on all spells except Heal and Mass Heal(slow timer), who cares if you can hit a Barbarian for 1700 hp of heal when he has 950hp. Effecient healing is more usefull, rather cast 2 Heals when he falls below half then wait until he is almost dead before power healing him.

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I believe the cleric capstone is actually quite useful. I agree with your assesment of FS trying to spread themself too thin. Clerics have less issue with this.

Empowered heals do about 430 or so non-epowered heals do 270 or so. Why are you quoting critical heals? That is only misleading. Critical heals are only important for hurting undead or mass healing (assuming you aren't over-healing with your masses to start with). The numbers I quoted are actually very relevant and make a huge difference.

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sorry to burst your bubble but what makes clerics more versatile?
the spellselection cant be it as there arent even enough useful divine spells that fav souls will ever run into a problem

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How could you burst my bubble? As a I said, I already have a capped FS. I've played them both extensively. I base my view on my experience, not what someone tells me on the forums. And there are spells that I wish I had on my FS, that would make quests easier (mass heal, mass deathward, mass cure critical wounds, symbol of persuasion, bestow curse, disenchant area, true ressurrection, etc). You have been involved in discussion of this in the past, you didn't change your mind then, and I'm happy for you.

Out of time, sorry for anyone I missed. But really posting for those still evaluating their stance on the issue.

FvS do not heal "better". They heal the same, or at least have the same potential. They just basically have more sp at the cost of a few spell slots. About 500 more if the FvS dumps their CHA stat and takes NO SP enhancements/feats over a cleric with both SP feats, all SP enhancements, and max wisdom. If the FvS takes the same feats and enhancements for SP the difference is about 1000 more, assuming typical SP equipment.

-JR

By default. Because healing spells are granted for free to clerics, that makes it seem they should be better.

its all about the build and player though. It is very easy to make a FvS that is as good or superior at healing compared to a cleric. There are very few "Definitives" in character creation and play. the DDo system is flexible enough to create any kind of character you wish from any combination of classes.

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Originally Posted by PopeJual

Dear Lord, I do not want to start a thread of flames, but I just don't get this. People keep saying that Clerics are vastly better at healing than FvS. I've tried to figure out how, but I have not been successful so far. I'm about to roll a FvS healer. Please help me avoid the error of my ways.

The only thing that I've seen that would make Clerics better is that they get their spells one level earlier than FvS.

So, the Cleric and Favored Soul spell lists are identical. Clerics get a free healing spell selection at each level, but FvS can certainly take that healing spell as well - they just have to use one of their slots. FvS appear to have the same healing amplifying Enhancements (Improved Empower Healing Spell, Cleric Life Magic, Prayer of Life, and Wand and Scroll Mastery). Clerics and FvS can get the same items/equipment. Clerics should expect to have higher DCs for their offensive spells, but I don't see many people making saving thows against their party's heal spells...

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

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as you wont debate it some comments on your comments :)

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

The mana difference is a low benefit for me going into the insignificant realm: The 600 - 800 mana difference between the two is accurate. However, 1) mana efficiency lowers the real value of this, 2) even at elite levels this mana isn't needed on a well played cleric, 3) pots and end game items really make this difference inconsequential (you don't need the mana almost all of the time, when you do reserves of pots/bauble/epic ring/vile blasphemy are very substantial - I have 100s of them because I never need them), 4) scroll and wand use save both classes the same amount of mana, and 5) there are items in the game (DQ Torc and concordiant opposition greensteel) that give you 100s of mana (1000s if you work at it) on a typical quest, which is the same on a FS or a cleric.

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more sp is more sp and more sp is never bad

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

The DR and stacking resists are insignificant on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? That's just funny. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics sneer at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

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with the resists and dr you basicly gain 35 sp every 48 hits. more sp is more sp
also stoneskin clickys can run out

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

I believe the cleric capstone is actually quite useful. I agree with your assesment of FS trying to spread themself too thin. Clerics have less issue with this.

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jep, the cleric capstone is powerful though its limited in its power (means only really useful on a handfull of quests). the free healing of the fav soul is basicly free sp. more sp is more sp

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

Empowered heals do about 430 or so non-epowered heals do 270 or so. Why are you quoting critical heals? That is only misleading. Critical heals are only important for hurting undead or mass healing (assuming you aren't over-healing with your masses to start with). The numbers I quoted are actually very relevant and make a huge difference.

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the reduction of the emp healing cost for clerics is indeed huge (i managed to bring a heal down to 7sp per cast though that was with other factors too but souls would still have to use 13sp for that one)
sadly this is made up by the 800 more sp

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

How could you burst my bubble? As a I said, I already have a capped FS. I've played them both extensively. I base my view on my experience, not what someone tells me on the forums. And there are spells that I wish I had on my FS, that would make quests easier (mass heal, mass deathward, mass cure critical wounds, symbol of persuasion, bestow curse, disenchant area, true ressurrection, etc). You have been involved in discussion of this in the past, you didn't change your mind then, and I'm happy for you.

Out of time, sorry for anyone I missed. But really posting for those still evaluating their stance on the issue.

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the difference lies between must-have and want-have spells
souls have access to every must-have spell but have to skim on a few want-have spells
ppl like me know what spells dont really do anything which are want-have spells for others (bestow curse for example, i used to have it on my cleric too but it basicly became useless as the relevant mobs (raidbosses) are just immuen to it for beeing devils)
ppl like you want their want-have spells even though they arent really useful

The major difference is spelled: Devine Intervention.
Perhaps the best capstone of all classes...nothing like it.

Had to chime in on this one.

I've capped several clerics as well as a FvS capped toon.

To say one is better than the other, or one heals better than the other, seems like a moot argument to begin with. The same argument holds true for Wizzys vs Sorcs.

Clerics are more versatile since you can swap out spells that may uniquely be applicable to a certain quest. However, when running as a cleric, I find that mana management is what differentiates a good cleric from a bad one, and being a cleric is all about Mana Management.

For FvS, Mana Management isn't as important, but your versatility is limited. I love running my FvS in groups that are self sufficient, the fun goes down when I have to revert to nannybot duty.

Oh, for those that diss Empower Healing, with the enhancements and Reaver Gloves, you get 50% more healing for only 4 mana more, now that's mana management. I don't care about 1500HP heals, but the Cure Mass Mod and Cure Mass Light, with Sup VI item, Empower Healing, and I'm hitting for 200-300HP group heals for just 4 mana more, that's efficient mana management.

It's the whole Wizzy vs Sorc argument again in dealing with Cleric Vs FvS. Neither is better, since the diversity of the game keeps them all fun.

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Originally Posted by cinoaz

Had to chime in on this one.

I've capped several clerics as well as a FvS capped toon.

To say one is better than the other, or one heals better than the other, seems like a moot argument to begin with. The same argument holds true for Wizzys vs Sorcs.

Clerics are more versatile since you can swap out spells that may uniquely be applicable to a certain quest. However, when running as a cleric, I find that mana management is what differentiates a good cleric from a bad one, and being a cleric is all about Mana Management.

For FvS, Mana Management isn't as important, but your versatility is limited. I love running my FvS in groups that are self sufficient, the fun goes down when I have to revert to nannybot duty.

Oh, for those that diss Empower Healing, with the enhancements and Reaver Gloves, you get 50% more healing for only 4 mana more, now that's mana management. I don't care about 1500HP heals, but the Cure Mass Mod and Cure Mass Light, with Sup VI item, Empower Healing, and I'm hitting for 200-300HP group heals for just 4 mana more, that's efficient mana management.

It's the whole Wizzy vs Sorc argument again in dealing with Cleric Vs FvS. Neither is better, since the diversity of the game keeps them all fun.

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its not the exact same argument as on the arcane side because there are more then just a few usefull arcane spell and wizards at least get 5 more feats to compensate

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Originally Posted by Bloodhaven

All other things being equal a FVS will out preform a cleric. More SP, Leap of faith, DR 10 silver, +10 fire/cold/lightning resist.

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These class bonuses are nice but are for the divine casters themselves - not anyone they are running with. The ONLY one that may affect the healing capabilities of a FvS is SP. And only if they actually NEED them. :rolleyes:

Is Cleric vs. Fvs not also one of this topics that come up around every fortnight and are discussed again in great length and detail?

Clerics don't HEAL any better than FvS.....it depends on the player playing the toon where HEALING can be judged. I've run with some FvS who have sucked.....Clerics too.

My advice......learn how to play a "HEALER" first then after sometime figure out who you like the most(Always good to have 2 "HEALER" types anyway raids and whatnot). I only have a cleric.....but I never look at a FvS and feel bad cause they have more SP or Wings or DR. Well cause I know how to play my cleric good. Anyone who tells ya one is better than the other is just stating an opinion and you should take it as such.....really you'll never know till you have run both classes....and then your experince will be much diffrent than mine or any of these other posters

Funny thing is this argument sounds SO familiar.
Wizards and Sorcs anyone.

There will be people on both sides forever and noone will agree with the others and it will go on and on.

It all boils down IMO to the personal preferances of the person and the person behind the character.

A bad player is a bad player whether cleric or fsv.

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

The DR and stacking resists are insignificant on a divine caster who can heal and protect themselves like a FS or cleric (120 point protections for free). 10 points of elemental resist? That's just funny. Only useful when leveling. My FS and clerics sneer at 100 points of elemental damage (even if it does get by my protections). 10 points of melee DR? You can make all the stoneskin clickies you want on a cleric, for those really tough fights (and you only need them at the beginning). All that said if you are running around with only 300-350 hp (you should have 100 more than that), that DR may be useful to you.

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Man... I adore my passive 15 DR. Insignificant? Really? Soloing Elite Amrath stuff... getting tons of devils on you and being able to shrug it off. I'm not even in the 300 hp range.. I'm topping 550.

IMO the main difference between FvS and Cleric besides the whole mana-management thing is that you can be more melee focused with a FvS. Fvs get insane saves, the leap, and weapon enhancements. You can build a much meaner Fvs/monk splash than say a cleric/monk if you like being in combat. Of course, a cleric does much better just sitting back, healing, throwing the occasional BB or cometfall.
That being said, cleric play is a lot easier. As stated before, you can get the cost of the Empower Healing meta down to an additional 4 points. Blade barrier is still one of the best sources of damage and a cleric can just as easily fit in empower and maximize.

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Originally Posted by shenthing

Blade barrier is still one of the best sources of damage and a cleric can just as easily fit in empower and maximize.

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for the soul the same BB will be cheaper though :p

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Originally Posted by Visty

for the soul the same BB will be cheaper though :p

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Touche.

One other thing to consider is that they are allowing mass heal (lv9 spell) to hit 12 people instead of 6 making it more useful for raids. Its a slow cast time but it will be the most efficient heal in the game. Also since mass heal doesn't work with maximize/empower spell you can leave all 3 metamagics on at all times and boost your free CLW while having a mana efficient mass heal.

I only have a 20 FvS, not a cleric. Bust just something to think about.

What is your definition of healing better?

If you consider it to be one character using their blue bar to power another character's red bar, then yes- with their higher SP pool FvS do make better healers. The answer for me is versatility and being able to apply the proper spell to the proper situation. Prevention is the better cure.

At level 20, a pure FvS has 4 Fourth level spells- I can almost guarantee that Neutralize Poison is not one of them, since it it wandable. Who is switching out their 4th level spells before a Shroud so they can give extended Poison resists to the melees?

Clerics are able to prepare and apply the proper and most SP efficient spells needed, and they are able to do it one level earlier than a FvS.

Take removal of negative levels, for example. For a single target spell, you have Restoration and Greater Restoration. Restoration is available to a FvS as early as Level 8, but they only get to choose one spell until they level up and it's likely not the first priority, given that Panacea, Death Ward, and Cure Critical are also an option at that caster level. What to do? Wait until you can get Greater Restoration, which can be obtained no sooner than Level 14 FvS?

If you take Restoration, how many times do you have to cast it to get rid of eight negative levels? That's hardly SP efficient, but I've seen it done. Restoration, eight times......320 SP worth. Got the job done, but you can hardly call that better healing.

In contrast, Clerics get Greater Restoration one level earlier at Level 13 and can load up either Restoration, Greater Restoration, or both, depending on what they plan on doing, and what other spells of that level they need. Since I can't imagine a FvS taking both Resto and Greater, they are either healing your one neg level with a 60 point spell (Greater), or healing your multiple neg levels with many casts of Restoration at 40 SP per cast.

Again, back to the topic of Neutralize Poison. At that level, it makes a lot more sense to take Panacea, which will cure poison as well as several other negative effects. If you had to choose between the two, it makes more sense to choose the one that will cover more ground, which is Panacea. Again, though- it comes down to an ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure. Whereas the FvS that may have chosen Panacea will be able to cure poison, Panacea does not prevent future infection. It's handy and it "heals", but how many times a quest does it need to be cast versus a Cleric casting Neut. Poison, which prevents you from getting poisoned in the first place? It's more SP efficient to be able to cast a 25 SP buff once, than to have to spam a 25 SP cure every time someone gets poisoned.

You can read into that what you will, but the appeal of the Cleric will always be preparedness and versatility it provides and I really feel that the FvS lacks that.

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Originally Posted by Visty

nothing makes clerics better

the only thing where clerics are better then favsouls is turn undead. and we all know how flawed that is

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Question: How in your opinion is turn undead flawed?

I have a level 19 cleric currently and I have built him as a healer with superior turn undead specifications. Except for named undead like the "Black Abbot" or the end boss in Madstone Crater I can turn any undead in the game bar none one any difficulty. So explain to me how that is flawed?

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Originally Posted by shores11

Question: How in your opinion is turn undead flawed?

I have a level 19 cleric currently and I have built him as a healer with superior turn undead specifications. Except for named undead like the "Black Abbot" or the end boss in Madstone Crater I can turn any undead in the game bar none one any difficulty. So explain to me how that is flawed?

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in the same way the antiundead-paladin-pre is:
you focus your char on a thing which you only encounter in like 10% of the game if even

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Originally Posted by Symar-FangofLloth

Clerics get the spells one level earlier (not a huge deal), get all the Cure line of spells for free (so they have all the mass cures, and have plenty of room for buffs. My FvS is very delayed and restricted in which buffs to take when: just got Deathward at level 16 and only has mass cure light so far).
Clerics get enhancements to reduce the cost of (the already low cost on) Empower Healing, the only meta that works on Heal and Mass Heal.
Clerics can spend turns to do Divine Healing (minor heal over time), Divine Cleansing (remove disease/poison/etc), and/or Divine Vitality (restore some of another casters SP).
And, if a certain spell is needed that they don't normally carry, they can swap out and get it. They just have a lot more versatility over a FvS in terms of buffs and whatnot. As far as pure healing goes, it doesn't matter between the two usually. Clerics are going to be more efficient, but FvS have the sp to throw around.

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Good feedback Fang...

This is it in a nutshell. The player obviously has some input into how good their cleric or FvS healer can be. I have both a cleric and an FvS that are just healers and I can atest to the fact that overall clerics are superior in healing for many of the reasons Fang just mentioned.

I do agree that clerics getting access to spells one level before FvS is not that big of a deal but the fact that clerics have more spells to choose from and the flexibility of changing them as needed is a huge plus (this is even a bigger deal than it is for a wizard/sorcerer). As a result on my FvS healer for example I do not learn any raise dead spells due to spell slots I only carry raise scrolls this allows me more slots for my healing spells.

The turn undead feature for clerics is huge as I rely on them not only for turning undead but for vitality and healing. They help a lot on healing and help to extand my SP further which in turn brings the FvS and cleric closer together in terms of the FvS having more SP.

So in summary I have made some choices on my FvS about what spells I can carry where as on my cleric I really have had not to make any choices because in part I have an abundance to select from.

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Originally Posted by PopeJual

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

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Clerics have a wider array of spells loaded at any given time, due to having 3 more spell slots per level than FvS on average. They have far less SP, but they really make up for it in spades with versatility. It's not that they are better healers, they are better situational mitigators and adaptors.

If only the preferable situations occur(aka a "Fair Weather" situation set), a FvS outshines a Cleric every sinlge time... but when the going gets rough, the Cleric has a lot more options to use to really pull things out of the fire(particularly their Capstone).

Again, to reiterate, FvS = Fair Weather Healer/Blaster; Cleric = Foul Weather Healer/Blaster.


Clerics get Turn Undead, which in DDO isn't useful unless they are on their 4th life cleric(TR Cleric 3x, then Cleric again), or unless they translate those Turns into DVs.

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Originally Posted by Visty

in the same way the antiundead-paladin-pre is:
you focus your char on a thing which you only encounter in like 10% of the game if even

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You must avoid the Necropolis like the plague... try hitting it for levels 8-14 sometime, it's wicked huge XP! .... if done right ;)

I only hope they increase the XP output out there, my Monk likes to fist the Undead.

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Originally Posted by Visty

in the same way the antiundead-paladin-pre is:
you focus your char on a thing which you only encounter in like 10% of the game if even

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First off you should make your point with accurate information kind sir. Undead is encountered much more than 10% in DDO. I would put it closer to 30% to 35% and regardless that was not the point.

It was said that turning undead was flawed. However if it is working even if the encounters with undead were 3% it is still working and therefore not flawed. Now if you want to argue that there is not enough undead encounters in the game that is something entirely different than what was originally said.

As I stated before turning undead is a good line to specialize in for your cleric as it works very very very well.

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Originally Posted by shores11

First off you should make your point with accurate information kind sir. Undead is encountered much more than 10% in DDO. I would put it closer to 30% to 35% and regardless that was not the point.

It was said that turning undead was flawed. However if it is working even if the encounters with undead were 3% it is still working and therefore not flawed. Now if you want to argue that there is not enough undead encounters in the game that is something entirely different than what was originally said.

As I stated before turning undead is a good line to specialize in for your cleric as it works very very very well.

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It's flawed because turning undead is actually a negative for the party as a whole. Unless you destroy undead (and I don't think you're saying that you can outright destroy any undead in the game)... the fear effect is actually a buff for the enemies. They run away from you in opposite directions, prolonging the fight, wasting your buffs, and at worst, seperates your party and causes them to take more damage when they unfear.

Why anyone would want to make a group of creatures scatter is beyond me.

Turn undead destroys undeads if turning lvl is quite above them, don't know the maths for it. Still doesn't make it incredible useful, especially if you run lvl approperiate content. And even if you make a build where it works, how many quests its actually useful? Yes you'll own necropolis and caverns of korromar, but thats it.

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Originally Posted by Xeraphim

You must avoid the Necropolis like the plague... try hitting it for levels 8-14 sometime, it's wicked huge XP! .... if done right ;)

I only hope they increase the XP output out there, my Monk likes to fist the Undead.

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i dont avoid it but i rather kill the mobs then make them run away

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Originally Posted by shenthing

Of course, a cleric does much better just sitting back, healing, throwing the occasional BB or cometfall.
That being said, cleric play is a lot easier. As stated before, you can get the cost of the Empower Healing meta down to an additional 4 points. Blade barrier is still one of the best sources of damage and a cleric can just as easily fit in empower and maximize.

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Are you serious? An FvS with a maxed out wis built for offensive spells is much better than your cleric. We have the same wis caps just so you know, only FvS has more sp.

FvS play is a lot easier, I'm sorry to say. You can get your heal costs down, sure, but FvS can get their empowers down in similar fashion.


The main issue is most people don't know how to build an FvS to focus on either spells or melee. They just go with a 14 ability score spread at creation. Once a spell-built FvS picks up Heal/Blade Barrier/Destruction and a Sup Potency 6 item at level 14, it's pretty much over. You're only limits are your party members.

And to add what some have already said, an FvS doesn't need any more spells than they are allotted - the key is to pick correctly: they're are a limited number if 'needed' spells.

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Originally Posted by Tuney

..... But as a heal bot, a FVS wins easy, but no one needs a heal bot.

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If you need a healbot, then reroll your character.

Honestly FWS are more sp.
Clerics are more spells available.

Both got potential to be good healer, if a good player behind it.
Which to choose, well depends on playstyle.

My capped pure cleric got with twink gear 1910 sp, so not like hes ineffective.

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Originally Posted by soloist12

Are you serious? An FvS with a maxed out wis built for offensive spells is much better than your cleric. We have the same wis caps just so you know, only FvS has more sp.

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Technically-FvS can only get a +2 bump in WIS (per enhancements) and a Cleric gets +3 Bump.

But one point of stat increase will not account for the massive mana pool that FvS gets in return. They are still superior to Clerics in many ways.

After finishing my FVS I quickly reincarnated my cleric into something useful. Clerics have one thing that at least my FVS does not....1 more mass cure spell to spam when called for. On my cleric I had mass cure light, mod,serious and crit...my FVS only has light serious and crit. When the time comes to spam I can find myself on cooldown for all three however...If Im thoughtful I can give that xtra moment b4 mashing and always have one off cooldown or even though slow, I can squeeze a mass cure mod scroll in for good measure. With over 2800 sp though..I much prefer solo healing shroud on my FVS than I ever did on my cleric. Clerics dont outheal...they just more easily fit the xtra mass cure in to make spamming smoother.

On a side note with the full healing line and amp...I heal myself for free for like 77-264 on my healing word. When ransacking Bastion, Sins or any quest for that matter...my FVS outheals any cleric in that he heals without ever using sp or scrolls...which means more blades for the garbage.

FvS wins the day. There are not enough good spells in DDO for the cleric's spell versatility to win that argument and the FvS has access to a an awesome free spot heal with the appropriate metamagics. I have both a 20 Cleric and a 20 FvS (in addition to the melee guy in sig) and the only good thing about the cleric at this point is divine intervention.

With similar build focus, same player, I can't think of a reasonable situation where I would rather have a cleric than a favored soul. It’s an easy choice. Hopefully the new Cleric PREs coming out in November 2015 will help balance things back out.

IMO, Favored Soul > Cleric

They also have potential to be MUCH tougher than clerics.

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Originally Posted by D-molisher

If you need a healbot, then reroll your character.

Honestly FWS are more sp.
Clerics are more spells available.

Both got potential to be good healer, if a good player behind it.
Which to choose, well depends on playstyle.

My capped pure cleric got with twink gear 1910 sp, so not like hes ineffective.

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i hear ya.

my dwarf clr like 2283 sp and i'd roll a fvs but i'd hate to get all the gear and level one just for a little more sp and a jump ability. tbh i'd rather just buy mana pots when needed.

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Originally Posted by jmonty

i hear ya.

my dwarf clr like 2283 sp and i'd roll a fvs but i'd hate to get all the gear and level one just for a little more sp and a jump ability. tbh i'd rather just buy mana pots when needed.

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Bleeh ...
Seriously dude >> ransack weapon shipment for the bauble. ( 1 greater mmo pot use a rest )

Turn undead works, but it's the definition of "works" that things get sticky.

I did the research, you can find the post here

Can you turn undead, why yes.

Can you destroy undead, not very often, almost never at higher levels.

Will turned undead still get 3 attacks on you after being turned. Oh most certainly, and you loose your shield DR while turning..ouch, ouch, that hurt(3 attacks).

Will turned undead flee until they rubberband, and no longer be turned. But of course, all the time.

Will you get excoriated for turning undead forcing the group to chase after them...most certainty, every time.

Does FvS heal better than clerics....ahhhhhh, back on topic.....

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Originally Posted by bobbryan2

It's flawed because turning undead is actually a negative for the party as a whole. Unless you destroy undead (and I don't think you're saying that you can outright destroy any undead in the game)... the fear effect is actually a buff for the enemies. They run away from you in opposite directions, prolonging the fight, wasting your buffs, and at worst, seperates your party and causes them to take more damage when they unfear.

Why anyone would want to make a group of creatures scatter is beyond me.

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FLAWED - No, because you view something as a negative doesn't mean its flawed if it is working exactly as it is intended.

Two points.

1) I am saying that I am destroying undead depending on the level of the undead.

2) I agree that turn undead works similar to fear for undead but that is the way it is intended to work. So even if you do not like it, in fact it is not flawed as it is meant to work this way.

To address your point about scattering the party and causing them to take more damage when the unturn you my friend need to run with better players. I have been destroying and turning undead in DDO for over 4 years now and have never even come close to seeing what you are describing and in fact have never had anyone complain about me turning undead.

Lastly turning undead is a core component of D&D and one that I hope will always remain a part of DDO.

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Originally Posted by Anderei

Turn undead destroys undeads if turning lvl is quite above them, don't know the maths for it. Still doesn't make it incredible useful, especially if you run lvl approperiate content. And even if you make a build where it works, how many quests its actually useful? Yes you'll own necropolis and caverns of korromar, but thats it.

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Wrong - There is many more undead quests in DDO.

To name a few:

Delera's Graveyard - Most of the quests in there.
Catacombs
Inferno of the Damned
Temple of Vol
Litany of the Dead
Xorian Cipher
The Depths series in House Denieth
Necropolis you named but there is a lot of quests in there.
House Phiarlan quests - some of them
House Kundarak quests - some of them
House Jurasco quests - some of them
Subteranne (slayer area)

There are several undead quests in game. Like I said earlier maybe 30% to 35% and that is substantial.

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Originally Posted by Hellllboy

Technically-FvS can only get a +2 bump in WIS (per enhancements) and a Cleric gets +3 Bump.

But one point of stat increase will not account for the massive mana pool that FvS gets in return. They are still superior to Clerics in many ways.

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I agree to a point as a FvS is superior in that they have more SP, quite a lot more. But other than that they are not superior. Yes you can make a FvS be a very effective healer to the point where he alone can be a solo healer in just about any quest except the extreme raids that you need more than one in anyway.

Challenge: Take a really good player that has experience in playing the healer line for clerics and FvS and ask their feedback. I think you will find that the cleric is preferred as the healer due to the wider ability to heal and buff.

Now can a FvS be a superior offensive caster than a cleric. Maybe but that is soley based on superior SP and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by shores11

Lastly turning undead is a core component of D&D and one that I hope will always remain a part of DDO.

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How big of a part do you think turn undead is to DDO?
Have you ever seen looking for Turn Build in an LFM? I haven't.

I am narrow minded about turns, i'll admit. I think it's because any time I have seen anyone use it (which has been at least a year or more) it has caused more trouble than it's worth. A Cleric using turn screams out noob to me. I am sorry. I am narrow minded but I have never been thankful to have a cleric spend turn attempts on an actual turn.

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Originally Posted by shores11

I agree to a point as a FvS is superior in that they have more SP, quite a lot more. But other than that they are not superior.

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Unless you count FVS's: HPS (toughness enhancements), saves, DR, capstone, energy resistance, action boosts, or class skills.

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Originally Posted by Creeper

How big of a part do you think turn undead is to DDO?
Have you ever seen looking for Turn Build in an LFM? I haven't.

I am narrow minded about turns, i'll admit. I think it's because any time I have seen anyone use it (which has been at least a year or more) it has caused more trouble than it's worth. A Cleric using turn screams out noob to me. I am sorry. I am narrow minded but I have never been thankful to have a cleric spend turn attempts on an actual turn.

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I meant only that it is core to D&D and a part of DDO (not core to DDO).

I have been playing 4+ years now and use it often as I am no noob. I enjoy it and as I stated earlier have had no complaints.

I have a capped Cleric and a Capped FVS--They both heal the same--

BUT i am prob the only FVS I know that carries 3 Mass Cures and Empower Healing--and I really want to dump one mass cure for a DPS spell, but find that I still need the 3 mass cures for Pug Raids and Epic VON 6 if lag is bad.

Many FVS only carry one Mass Cure, and alot leave all their metas on while healing in raids to bump up their free CLW--only they run out of SP too fast with all Metas on, so really it is a player choice, and player playstyle that is better not the class.

My FVS is wis based and has 600 more SP than my cleric--but my cleric doesn't need to take pots in raids anyhow, so the 600 SP is really just better for soloing--but then again, I still prefer to solo some things on my cleric because she has more DPS and insta kill spells atm.

all i can say is that clerics have dv's and just about every group that i am in with my cleric someone asks..."can i have some dvs?" and that can help in a pinch. i will always have a cleric!!

Question coming from a relatively new cleric (level 11). Aren't there some advantages for the cleric when it comes to spell DC? Since cleric's key stat is wis (which is also spell DC), don't they inherently get a DC advantage on CC-type spells that a FVS, which uses cha for its key stat, wouldn't necessarily receive?

I'm guessing that any DC advantages pretty much disappear once you get to the really high-level content, but what about the middle levels?

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Originally Posted by damien66

Question coming from a relatively new cleric (level 11). Aren't there some advantages for the cleric when it comes to spell DC? Since cleric's key stat is wis (which is also spell DC), don't they inherently get a DC advantage on CC-type spells that a FVS, which uses cha for its key stat, wouldn't necessarily receive?

I'm guessing that any DC advantages pretty much disappear once you get to the really high-level content, but what about the middle levels?

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both classes use wisdom for their dc
and as stated earlier souls just have 1 less wisdom then clerics which is either 1 or 0 dc, so no, theres no dc disadvantage

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Originally Posted by Visty

both classes use wisdom for their dc
and as stated earlier souls just have 1 less wisdom then clerics which is either 1 or 0 dc, so no, theres no dc disadvantage

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Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

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Originally Posted by shores11

1) I am saying that I am destroying undead depending on the level of the undead.

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I appreciate your zealotry about destroying undead, I really do. But if you bothered to look at my previous post, the link I provided, I did all the math.

I'm not entering into a qualitative argument about Destroying Undead by turning, I did the quantitative analysis and verified how all bonuses are being added.

The short end of it, Undead have inflated HD, which directly affect Turn Undead Calculations. Also, depending on the quest, the Devs "Bumped" resistances to the undead to resist being destroyed(again, see post, there are two sets of numbers).

In DDO, you cannot raise your Cleric Levels faster than the HD increase of undead as you go higher in levels. It's a losing battle. Sure you can Turn, and cower, and make them flee, but the dual wielding Disruptors/Sunblades/Holy Burst of Pure Good DPSers get annoyed.

Also, when, say, an Undead that unlocks a door when destroyed gets turned and goes through a barrier (Orchard Quest, name deceives me atm), the group doesn't like it.

I'm a big fan of turn undead as well, but unless you can point out where my calculations are incorrect, the odds of destroying undead are very rare at high levels. The numbers don't lie.

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Originally Posted by phalaeo

At level 20, a pure FvS has 4 Fourth level spells- I can almost guarantee that Neutralize Poison is not one of them, since it it wandable. Who is switching out their 4th level spells before a Shroud so they can give extended Poison resists to the melees?

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I've never played a healer, and I've got a question about this particular spell. How is it different from just drinking a potion of poison neutralization? I'm asking because I can't say that I've ever asked for a cure poison, although there's been many a time where I've poured a pot down someone's throat when they run by with the poison flag over their head.

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Originally Posted by shores11

To address your point about scattering the party and causing them to take more damage when the unturn you my friend need to run with better players. I have been destroying and turning undead in DDO for over 4 years now and have never even come close to seeing what you are describing and in fact have never had anyone complain about me turning undead.

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I have personally asked a cleric to stop turning undead because it is causing more trouble than it is alleviating.

I've also seen plenty of other people ask the same.

Maybe no one has asked you because they don't even notice you're doing it?

The lack of AoE cure spells due to slots at earlier levels hurts. If you have a group that is going to steamroll everything you will never notice the difference it's the groups full of chumps that will be hurting. HJEEL ME! OMG GIMP HEALER!

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Originally Posted by Durmast

I've never played a healer, and I've got a question about this particular spell. How is it different from just drinking a potion of poison neutralization? I'm asking because I can't say that I've ever asked for a cure poison, although there's been many a time where I've poured a pot down someone's throat when they run by with the poison flag over their head.

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To the best of my knowledge, the difference is only in duration and, well, the spell doesn't cost gold at the vendor. This is kind of important for newer players- I'm still relatively new, but I remember when I would have thought paying 300-800 GP for a potion was insane.

The spell can be extended as a buff- important in Shroud, when a 7-8-9 minute buff is just cutting it too close. I've never melee'd Harry (so I've never gotten poisoned by him), but from what I understand, it isn't just a poison flag---it drops you like a rock.

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

Empower healing vs Empower, my clerics all dropped the EMP Heal for EMP, Empower works on all spells except Heal and Mass Heal(slow timer), who cares if you can hit a Barbarian for 1700 hp of heal when he has 950hp. Effecient healing is more usefull, rather cast 2 Heals when he falls below half then wait until he is almost dead before power healing him.

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My cleric dropped Empower Spell for Empower Healing, and would do the same again.

Hitting a Barbarian with 770hp for 427 instead of 285 makes a huge difference - and many foes deal too much damage for you to keep said barb alive with one Heal per 4.5 seconds. Likewise Mass Heal hitting an entire Epic dungeon group for 420 not 280 saves you all the mana an empowered Mass Cure Critical Wounds would have cost.

Whereas Empower Spell adds 25% to the damage of your (maximized) Bladebarriers - situationally useful, but not particularly useful in raids or Epics.

They don't, it's the person at the keyboard that determines if they are a good healer or not. The problem with many clerics is they think all they have to do to be a good healer is sit there and hit thier heal and mass cure hotkey......until they get slammed in the face with a meteor swarm and are dead because they don't know how to use thier movement keys.

U know what makes a bard a better healer than a cleric and a fvs combined....the inability to cast Mass Heal LVL 9 in a raid battle.

My reasons I dropped my cleric in favor of FVS!!

<-- leap of faith (who doesn't love wings)
<-- damage reduction and 3x +10 resists of your choice (these stack with res 30 spell)
<-- ton o sp's so u can acaully use the metamagic feats without worrying about sp's
<-- free Cure light wounds that work with your metamagic feats!! (without sp's cost)
<-- OMG JUMP isn't cross class nuff said!!
<-- and of course my favorite actual saves that prevent you getting nailed with spells!

The main problem with fvs at this point is that there are more choices so no 2 fvs are alike, you will get a great one then you'll get a dud! They have gotten a bad reputation because of the choices players make. I've seen fvs of all types and wisdom and charisma are not always even stats they put points into!! I prefer the healing type myself so have come to love the fvs class and find it far superior to my cleric.

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Originally Posted by Bilger

Funny thing is this argument sounds SO familiar.
Wizards and Sorcs anyone.

There will be people on both sides forever and noone will agree with the others and it will go on and on.

It all boils down IMO to the personal preferances of the person and the person behind the character.

A bad player is a bad player whether cleric or fsv.

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It does sound like it but it was only a question not an argument made the OP :D Also, the quote above fits it perfectly. It is how the character is played. No one class (Cleric and FVS for this thread) is better or worse but how it is played by person behind the keyboard.

Some FVS and Clerics are built for battle and thusly played with self healing in mind, and I have seen them played as healing in mind. Just FVS depends on which spells you choose at level :eek:

To the OP, it is only how they are played not that each class is better or worse. I hope this answers ;)

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Originally Posted by moops

I have a capped Cleric and a Capped FVS--They both heal the same--

BUT i am prob the only FVS I know that carries 3 Mass Cures and Empower Healing--and I really want to dump one mass cure for a DPS spell, but find that I still need the 3 mass cures for Pug Raids and Epic VON 6 if lag is bad.

Many FVS only carry one Mass Cure, and alot leave all their metas on while healing in raids to bump up their free CLW--only they run out of SP too fast with all Metas on, so really it is a player choice, and player playstyle that is better not the class.

My FVS is wis based and has 600 more SP than my cleric--but my cleric doesn't need to take pots in raids anyhow, so the 600 SP is really just better for soloing--but then again, I still prefer to solo some things on my cleric because she has more DPS and insta kill spells atm.

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I agree completely. Most FvS don't have empower healing, leave their metas on for their capstone so they burn their mana faster than a comparable cleric, and don't have the right spells loaded. In raids it is really problematic, so I prefer clerics.

And btw, I have empowered healing too on my FvS, and he only has 230 more spell points than my cleric (because of monk splash). But only 2 masses :(. He is still missing some of the spells for dealing with raid situations, but oh well. I would solo heal raids on my cleric anytime, on my FvS, only the easy ones (shroud, VoD). And I agree with your assessment on soloing too, except that the cleric can get all the mana he wants typically in a solo situation.

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

I agree completely. Most FvS don't have empower healing, leave their metas on for their capstone so they burn their mana faster than a comparable cleric, and don't have the right spells loaded. In raids it is really problematic, so I prefer clerics.

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thats not a soul issue though thats a playstyle issue

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thats not a soul issue though thats a playstyle issue

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Have to disagree. It wasn't MY playstyle, but I found myself doing much the same on my first FvS.

I guess to be more precise you could say that the FvS design encourages peeps to take the nuker route and blow through mana like a sorc.

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Originally Posted by Fenrisulven6

Have to disagree. It wasn't MY playstyle, but I found myself doing much the same on my first FvS.

I guess to be more precise you could say that the FvS design encourages peeps to take the nuker route and blow through mana like a sorc.

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so it became your playstyle on your soul

play your soul like your cleric and you wont have a problem

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Originally Posted by Visty

so it became your playstyle on your soul

play your soul like your cleric and you wont have a problem

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Lol, I love this argument: FVS Souls are less likely to take empower healing so they are less effective than clerics.

How about instead we say: FVS are less likely to take empower spell because they will be less effective than Clerics.

And then there’s: FVS leave their metamagics on all the time FOR THE CAPSTONE which results in less spell points. So the FVS Capstone is actually a bad thing in your mind at this point. Brilliant strategy. Haste can also be a bad spell if you cast it twice and end up not having enough mana for that Displacement that COULD have saved your life. Sounds a little silly, yes?

As Visty says… If you feel that strongly about these LIKELY actions then take empower healing instead of empower spell and turn off your metamagics when neccesary.
Your argument that Favored Souls are more LIKELY to do anything is negated by the negative emphasis you place on these dreaded choices.
If the things FVS are more LIKELY to do are so horrible then why are they so likely?

Furthermore, in one argument it is presented that Clerics have the upper hand because they are more likely to have more offensive spells, but let’s update that with these new revelations—Clerics are less LIKELY to have empower spell! Oh no!

What if either/or class takes both empower spell and empower healing? My answer: it doesn’t matter much.

P.S. If you leave all your metas on all the time solely for your capstone and find yourself running out of mana because of this… As Visty says this is obviously a mistake. Reevaluate your play style. How many times should we allow ourselves to imagine that it takes for a Favored Soul to make this conclusion:
“Hmm, I am running out of mana because I keep Maximize on all the time for my capstone. This has led me to innumerable problems. Perhaps I should occasionally turn it off, even if it makes my cure light wounds a little less potent…” Is this dialogue reasonable? Can we assume that after about, what? 30-40 times of this happening the player will revise his strategy? Or should we assume that because it is LIKELY, albeit stupid, it is still the norm, because even upon the realization that it is a stupid thing to do we will still do it because it is the most “likely” and obvious thing?

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

And btw, I have empowered healing too on my FvS, and he only has 230 more spell points than my cleric (because of monk splash). But only 2 masses :(. He is still missing some of the spells for dealing with raid situations, but oh well. I would solo heal raids on my cleric anytime, on my FvS, only the easy ones (shroud, VoD).

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I'll take "Monk splash is your problem for $500".

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Originally Posted by The_Great_Samulas

I agree completely. Most FvS don't have empower healing, leave their metas on for their capstone so they burn their mana faster than a comparable cleric, and don't have the right spells loaded. In raids it is really problematic, so I prefer clerics.

And btw, I have empowered healing too on my FvS, and he only has 230 more spell points than my cleric (because of monk splash). But only 2 masses :(. He is still missing some of the spells for dealing with raid situations, but oh well. I would solo heal raids on my cleric anytime, on my FvS, only the easy ones (shroud, VoD). And I agree with your assessment on soloing too, except that the cleric can get all the mana he wants typically in a solo situation.

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So your argument is that favored souls are played by idiots, and clerics are played by skilled vets.

In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

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Originally Posted by Visty

thats not a soul issue though thats a playstyle issue

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Originally Posted by bobbryan2

So your argument is that favored souls are played by idiots, and clerics are played by skilled vets.

In my experience, the exact opposite is true.

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I don't think he's to into debating what he thinks...or you think. He's to busy grinding for Eardweller on his Wizard....poor guy....on like run 5000 now I'm sure.

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Originally Posted by shores11

Question: How in your opinion is turn undead flawed?

I have a level 19 cleric currently and I have built him as a healer with superior turn undead specifications. Except for named undead like the "Black Abbot" or the end boss in Madstone Crater I can turn any undead in the game bar none one any difficulty. So explain to me how that is flawed?

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Because they get feared and spread out running down corridors aggroing everything else in the area while the party curses you because they have to chase them down to kill them.

Meanwhile the Wizzie is sitting there saying he could have cast halt undead because that freezes them in place and is much more effective vs undead.

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Originally Posted by Visty

so it became your playstyle on your soul

play your soul like your cleric and you wont have a problem

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Oh I did. Switched back my emp heal asap.

I'm just saying the class lends itself to such minmaxing - ie you can get away with dumping things like mental toughness and emp heal without readlly missing it, and replace those with metamagics that burn up your SP advantage. I think thats what Samulus was getting at.

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Originally Posted by Impaqt

By default. Because healing spells are granted for free to clerics, that makes it seem they should be better.

its all about the build and player though. It is very easy to make a FvS that is as good or superior at healing compared to a cleric. There are very few "Definitives" in character creation and play. the DDo system is flexible enough to create any kind of character you wish from any combination of classes.

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Unfortunately the higher you get the less useful those static spells become.
Level
1 CLW useful until you get CMW
2 CMW useful until you get CSW
3 CSW useful until you get heal
4 CCW useful until you get heal
5 MCLW Finally a mass cure spell
6 MCMW a better Mass cure spell( used a lot with superior potency item).. and everyone should be taking Heal at this level
7 MCSW good but without a superior potency/devotion clickie better using MCLW and MCMW
8 MCCW meh.. if youa re using this one you are usually in trouble or healing ineffectively.

In my opinion, for the static spells a cleric gets... at higher levels only 3 are really usefull being MCLW, MCMW and MCSW.

I love my FvS. I laugh when the barb pokes his nose in a trap because it barely dents my SP bar.

But I still prefer the versatility of my clerics. Try rolling up a FvS for Gywlans and Tear... and find out the party is going through Delaras instead. I'd rather be on a cleric for that.

And especially for PUGs. You've got to be versatile. Some days I think they don't even know what a neutralize poison pot is.

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Originally Posted by JOTMON

Unfortunately the higher you get the less useful those static spells become.
Level
1 CLW useful until you get CMW
2 CMW useful until you get CSW
3 CSW useful until you get heal
4 CCW useful until you get heal
5 MCLW Finally a mass cure spell
6 MCMW a better Mass cure spell( used a lot with superior potency item).. and everyone should be taking Heal at this level
7 MCSW good but without a superior potency/devotion clickie better using MCLW and MCMW
8 MCCW meh.. if youa re using this one you are usually in trouble or healing ineffectively.

In my opinion, for the static spells a cleric gets... at higher levels only 3 are really usefull being MCLW, MCMW and MCSW.

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Once you get your superior ardor VIII belts from Amrath, MCCW and MCSW are all I use.

It's not really a similiar discussion to sorc vs wizard.. Because they have vast differences that can't be quantified as better then the other... Cleric and FvS are really very much the same.

Clerics do get improved empowered healing, so if you want to be the best healer in the toughest areas, you want that.. Can get your empowered heals allot cheaper then a FvS .. But the FvS SP boost pretty much entirely negates that advantage.

Really at some point in all the hardest battles, both become limited in how often they can cast, the difference in SP isn't that limiting.. And with equal scroll/wand healing abiltities, theres not much difference when it comes down to that.

The biggest thing while lvling I think is getting spells 1 level earlier, and the wings at lvl17... Really the breaking point when a FvS become more fun to play.

Then engame the biggest thing is the capstone, which are massively different:
Cleric - Ultimate capstone for allot of raids, can make all the difference between victory and utter defeat
FvS - All around awesome capstone giving you a ton of DR, extra cha and your choice of 1 unlimited spell (free CLW or Searing light being the best ones)

That's why it's nice to have both.

Not sure if this has been put in or not but a cleric is better at healing due to they have improved empowered healing where fvs has improved empower spell instead. that one enchantment can make a world of difference.

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Originally Posted by Fenrisulven6

Try rolling up a FvS for Gywlans and Tear... and find out the party is going through Delaras instead. I'd rather be on a cleric for that.

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What does "rolling up a FVS for Gywlans and Tear" entail, and why would you rather have a Cleric for Delera's?

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Originally Posted by shores11

Challenge: Take a really good player that has experience in playing the healer line for clerics and FvS and ask their feedback. I think you will find that the cleric is preferred as the healer due to the wider ability to heal and buff.

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I have a capped Cleric and an almost Capped FvS.

My FvS is much better (for my play style) and he has not even hit 20 yet. (He can heal and buff-the same-but has tons more mana)

When it comes to healing-the 2 stat distribution (i.e. CHA/WIS) makes FvS the obvious choice-if you are just making a healing bot. (No DC for healing)

The Cleric stands out when it comes to "offensive" casting because they can concentrate on WIS and disregard CHA-thus having a higher DC.

That’s my feedback :)

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Originally Posted by Hellllboy

I have a capped Cleric and an almost Capped FvS.

My FvS is much better (for my play style) and he has not even hit 20 yet. (He can heal and buff-the same-but has tons more mana)

When it comes to healing-the 2 stat distribution (i.e. CHA/WIS) makes FvS the obvious choice-if you are just making a healing bot. (No DC for healing)

The Cleric stands out when it comes to "offensive" casting because they can concentrate on WIS and disregard CHA-thus having a higher DC.

That’s my feedback :)

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you dont need more then 12 starting cha on a soul either, some can even go with 10

its not really an issue, just taking one more inv slot

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Originally Posted by PopeJual

Dear Lord, I do not want to start a thread of flames, but I just don't get this. People keep saying that Clerics are vastly better at healing than FvS. I've tried to figure out how, but I have not been successful so far. I'm about to roll a FvS healer. Please help me avoid the error of my ways.

The only thing that I've seen that would make Clerics better is that they get their spells one level earlier than FvS.

So, the Cleric and Favored Soul spell lists are identical. Clerics get a free healing spell selection at each level, but FvS can certainly take that healing spell as well - they just have to use one of their slots. FvS appear to have the same healing amplifying Enhancements (Improved Empower Healing Spell, Cleric Life Magic, Prayer of Life, and Wand and Scroll Mastery). Clerics and FvS can get the same items/equipment. Clerics should expect to have higher DCs for their offensive spells, but I don't see many people making saving thows against their party's heal spells...

What makes Clerics superior as healers? What am I missing?

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Clerics have less SP, that makes them superior. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by phalaeo

At level 20, a pure FvS has 4 Fourth level spells- I can almost guarantee that Neutralize Poison is not one of them, since it it wandable. Who is switching out their 4th level spells before a Shroud so they can give extended Poison resists to the melees?

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The potion vendor. Or a friendly Ranger. But you act as if getting a Neutralize Poison is a big deal. It isn't.

Thank you all very much for the thoughtful and lively debate. I was worried that this would turn into a flame fest, but it was just a spirited discussion with lots of good information. That's to all for that.

I think I understand the issue now.

FvS can heal just as well as Clerics up to 20, but each has a significantly different capstone. The reason why FvS "can't" heal as effectively as Clerics is that most choose not to or don't understand how to.

I'm honestly not that surprised that most FvS don't heal as effectively as Clerics. Just reading this thread has been a huge education for me on how to make healing effective and efficient. I've run a Cleric up to level 8 so far and gave up for a while because I just couldn't stand spending plat to keep ineffective PUGs up and running. Now that I've seen the results of this thread, I think I'll go back and design a healer that's more efficient, more effective and try again.

For the WoW or EQ style nannybot, FvS can be built to fit that style better, but I think most of us see the Cleric as something different; Combat when combat is the best choice, healing when healing is needed, and CC when CC is the best choice.

I'm not saying that FvS is a one-trick-pony, because I seen many do devastating combat, but they are a bit one-trick at a time.

One of the best summaries (and simplest) I've seen was this post in another thread:

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Originally Posted by Junts

Heal
Cure Moderate Wounds, mass (the most widely used spell for raid healing)
Blade Barrier
Cometfall
Harm
Symbol of Persuasion

Pick 3.

That's a favored soul.

A cleric has all six .. at the same time.

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I'd have said Banishment instead of Symbol, but I think the point is made.

I had tried playing an FvS and I think I lasted 'til level nine before it made me choose between FOM and the big cure at that level. That was too much of a sacrifice to my play style and knew it was only going to get worse from there on out.

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Originally Posted by Anthem

I had tried playing an FvS and I think I lasted 'til level nine before it made me choose between FOM and the big cure at that level. That was too much of a sacrifice to my play style and knew it was only going to get worse from there on out.

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It wouldn't have gotten worse though. If you had waited two more levels you would have been able to have both spells. Two levels after that you could have picked another level four spell.

You get 1 at level 8, 1 at level 9, 1 at level 11, and the final one at level 13.

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Originally Posted by Anthem

For the WoW or EQ style nannybot, FvS can be built to fit that style better, but I think most of us see the Cleric as something different; Combat when combat is the best choice, healing when healing is needed, and CC when CC is the best choice.

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What is the difference between a WOW or EQ style nannybot and a DDO style nannybot? Is a nannybot just a condescending term for healer?