How Do Exploits Affect Me Personally?

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Originally Posted by eris2323

I'm not saying nasty things to people. You admitted you used the exploit many times. So it's only truth I'm spouting.

You're so defensive, that you have to attack others - and when that fails, you try to blame other peoples actions on me. I think you should call it a night.

And what's this 'it's who you are and who you will always be'? Sounds like you're getting to the point where you're attacking other players, now. Please don't do that, it's against the forum rules. Just give it a rest, take the night off, and take a deep breath.

I never said anyone should be banned; I know it's almost impossible to tell who actually did this... the only time I asked for a ban was for a different exploit involving killing players in the starter areas. Which is entirely different from this, but still an exploit.

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It doesn't matter if they know who did it or didn't do it - they aren't banning anyone because it doesn't even meet their own definition of an exploit. That is why they changed the functionality and referred to it directly as a functionality change and not an exploit fix. They want to sell raid bypass timers and they can't do that if people finish only parts 2 - 5. So now you must complete the parts in order, but it was never that way previously and the shortcut has been around for many years. Groups rarely did it because they wanted all the chests. In legacy people find part 1 so boring they are willing to lose those chests.

You are who you are and I doubt you will ever change.

I am not going to adjust my raiding due to Turbine bugs.

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Originally Posted by slarden

It doesn't matter if they know who did it or didn't do it - they aren't banning anyone because it doesn't even meet their own definition of an exploit. That is why they changed the functionality and referred to it directly as a functionality change and not an exploit fix. They want to sell raid bypass timers and they can't do that if people finish only parts 2 - 5. So now you must complete the parts in order, but it was never that way previously and the shortcut has been around for many years. Groups rarely did it because they wanted all the chests. In legacy people find part 1 so boring they are willing to lose those chests.

You are who you are and I doubt you will ever change.

I am not going to adjust my raiding due to Turbine bugs.

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Got it - You will use any method to exploit that you can.

No problem. Have a good night. Luckily I don't have to play with you.

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Originally Posted by eris2323

Got it - You will use any method to exploit that you can.

No problem. Have a good night. Luckily I don't have to play with you.

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Very typical of you making a false assessment like this because you can't control your emotions.

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Originally Posted by slarden

Very typical of you making a false assessment like this because you can't control your emotions.

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Says the guy desperately defending his use of exploits....

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Originally Posted by eris2323

Says the guy desperately defending his use of exploits....

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pfft. I joined shroud groups as I always do. I don't consider it an exploit and I don't think people actually running the raid do either - because not one person ever complained or dropped party in 20 runs with over 100 characters. Not sure how many different people but alot.

You don't run end game raids. You rarely run with people at all. You mostly just like to make alot of attacks and arguments on the forums lol.

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Originally Posted by slarden

pfft. I joined shroud groups as I always do. I don't consider it an exploit and I don't think people actually running the raid do either - because not one person ever complained or dropped party.

You don't run end game raids. You rarely run with people at all. You mostly just like to make alot of attacks and arguments on the forums lol.

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No No... I haven't played THOSE new raids yet, because I'm not level appropriate.

I do play with people, and we also have guild runs where we open it to pugs...

Don't worry, you won't be invited.

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Originally Posted by eris2323

No No... I haven't played THOSE new raids yet, because I'm not level appropriate.

I do play with people, and we also have guild runs where we open it to pugs...

Don't worry, you won't be invited.

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lol won't be invited. Yeah those guild runs of yours are legendary. I've seen like 1 in 6 years and it was for an old raid.

Go ahead and get the last word in and post your usual thoughtful response. I am done now lol.

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Originally Posted by slarden

lol won't be invited. Yeah those guild runs of yours are legendary.

Go ahead and get the last word in and post your usual thoughtful response. I am done now lol.

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Good. Your attacks on me are getting tiring.

Have a good night.

Can we just stop this and move on to more important things please?

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Originally Posted by Taimasan

Can we just stop this and move on to more important things please?

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Agreed. This thread was just a continuation of the other thread.

Time to close it.

If an unintended game mechanic is used by too many people that makes the game more enjoyable for them (or more rewarding) and it is not fixed very early on, then fixing it later will only disgruntle the playerbase, leading to loss of sales and bad rep. This is the reason why there are no ban-waves or reprecussions for a lot of players who use non-intended methods in the game, and not because Turbine doesn't find it punishable.

As it has been said, Turbine is a company. They are here to make money. They do not live their lives to make us happy (and them miserable by all our bickering and complaining). If an exploit hurts their wallets, they act on it. If it doesn't hurt it but helps their pockets, they will leave it on. If a non-intended feature makes players buy extra raid timers so that they finish the raid even more times, they will leave it on. If a non-intended features makes players buy less raid timers, they will fix it.

Turbine's actions are not about morality; they are about income.

And to end this discussion: The players who say that exploiting doesn't affect other players are the same like those who throw garbage on the pavement instead of in bins. They think that because they don't suffer from it, that noone else does.

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Originally Posted by Darkmits

If an unintended game mechanic is used by too many people that makes the game more enjoyable for them (or more rewarding) and it is not fixed very early on, then fixing it later will only disgruntle the playerbase, leading to loss of sales and bad rep. This is the reason why there are no ban-waves or reprecussions for a lot of players who use non-intended methods in the game, and not because Turbine doesn't find it punishable.

As it has been said, Turbine is a company. They are here to make money. They do not live their lives to make us happy (and them miserable by all our bickering and complaining). If an exploit hurts their wallets, they act on it. If it doesn't hurt it but helps their pockets, they will leave it on. If a non-intended feature makes players buy extra raid timers so that they finish the raid even more times, they will leave it on. If a non-intended features makes players buy less raid timers, they will fix it.

Turbine's actions are not about morality; they are about income.

And to end this discussion: The players who say that exploiting doesn't affect other players are the same like those who throw garbage on the pavement instead of in bins. They think that because they don't suffer from it, that noone else does.

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True. And people blaming exploiters for ruining their game experience are similar to people blaming God for their miserable life - cause it so much easier:p

How Do Exploits Affect Me Personally?

Well, that depends on the exploit, doesn’t it? Most things I heard of don’t affect me at all because they have zero impact on my game. What do I care what happens in other groups as long as it is limited to their instance of the dungeon. Some things other players did were beneficial for me, like the opportunity to buy certain augments from the auction house that hardly drop ingame and would be store only if it weren’t for certain events. Other things were bad for my personal gaming experience like raids that aren’t run anymore (Didn’t mind the LShround thing but Thunderforged is all about the ASH and not about the raids now.) or the game getting balanced versus builds that got most of their XP/pastlives from other sources than questing.

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Originally Posted by eris2323

Agreed. This thread was just a continuation of the other thread.

Time to close it.

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Why tough? Everyone should get an opportunity to express their opinion on this matter just like you did ;)

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Originally Posted by Rys

Why tough? Everyone should get an opportunity to express their opinion on this matter just like you did ;)

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Because he is right and everyone else is wrong, duh. He said his opinion, time to shut down ddo

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Originally Posted by Postumus

OK. Please answer honestly:

1- have you ever had an opener for Shadow Crypt?

2- have you ever played with people who have openers for Shadow Crypt?

3- do you think that caching an opener for Shadow Crypt so players can bypass the flagging quests is how the designers of Litany 2 intended this content to by played?

4- do you think having an opener for Shadow Crypt is cheating?


There is no difference between an opener for Shadow Crypt (or window farming quite frankly), and jumping over an invisible wall or finding a shortcut method that designers did not expect, plan for, or intend. In each case players are bypassing the content and how it was intended to be played in order to farm xp and loot faster than intended. If "cheating" is defined as you and some others claim by "bypassing a quest in an unintended way to get loot/xp" (yes I'm paraphrasing), then doesn't the Shadow Crypt opener, and even window farming, fall into that definition?


That's why I say what matters is not what you think, or HAL thinks, or Talon thinks, or anyone else thinks; what matters is if Turbine finds the bypass actionable or not. If it does not, then the bypass is de facto "not cheating." Of course Turbine can change its mind and has done so numerous times. Some things it takes action on immediately, some it allows to go on for months, some for YEARS. If it allows a known bypass to keep being used for YEARS then it is de facto not cheating. Just like Shadow Crypt openers. Just like safe spots. Just like jumping to certain areas. Just like window farming. These are all methods of bypassing the content rather than play it how it was designed and intended.

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But there is a difference, of which I already pointed out three times now. Jumping the wall allowed people to glitch the raid in an incomplete state allowing them to jump right back in, something Turbine would rather sell then give away for free. This is not applicable to the shadow crypt example.

Still some confusion about the difference between Turbine choosing not to enforce the rule, versus rule not being broken.

Since the hints are being glossed over and not being addressed, Ill use the front and direct response approach this time.

Players cheating, and Turbine choosing not to do anything about it =/= they didn't cheat. They are not one and the same, de facto, or otherwise.

It matters what we all think, because each player who attrites because Turbine chooses to embrace a non enforcement atmosphere, is lost revenue to them. Since we have this discussion each time something like this is occurs, you cannot realistically tell us that number is zero, or close to zero. It doesn't get brought up this often if everyone believes as you do.

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Originally Posted by Chai

But there is a difference, of which I already pointed out three times now. Jumping the wall allowed people to glitch the raid in an incomplete state allowing them to jump right back in, something Turbine would rather sell then give away for free. This is not applicable to the shadow crypt example.

Still some confusion about the difference between Turbine choosing not to enforce the rule, versus rule not being broken.

Since the hints are being glossed over and not being addressed, Ill use the front and direct response approach this time.

Players cheating, and Turbine choosing not to do anything about it =/= they didn't cheat. They are not one and the same, de facto, or otherwise.

It matters what we all think, because each player who attrites because Turbine chooses to embrace a non enforcement atmosphere, is lost revenue to them. Since we have this discussion each time something like this is occurs, you cannot realistically tell us that number is zero, or close to zero. It doesn't get brought up this often if everyone believes as you do.

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This is not the only way to run a raid multiple times. You can also do it with multiple alts which is what many many people do - it's what I do. I can run shroud up to 24 times in a week without a bypass timer but need bypass timers if I want to run it more (or my schedule requires me to run mostly on the weekend) or if I want to bring my best characters.

Have you ever red-boxed, used an opener or window-farmed? If so you shouldn't be commenting on people using the shroud shortcut method which is the exact same thing.

As for store sales, I am sure Turbine would rather sell xp elixirs than have people getting fast xp using tricks to bypass the flagging requirements. It's been around a long time and nobody complains about it so it's not on Turbine's radar, but as others stated it's the exact same thing. You are bypassing a mechanic designed by Turbine to accelerate progress. Like shroud withthe shortcut method people just join groups and don't complain about the extra benefit.

And sure people can earn xp without bypassing flagging requirements and not use xp elixirs, but they can also run shroud multiple times with alts and not purchase bypass timers. While I agree people did run shroud more due to not completing, I don't think any long-term problems resulted from that bug unlike real exploits like the card game and duping which were real exploits and really hurt the game.

The only "difference" between shroud and bypassing flagging/end reward mechanics is you feel it's ok to use one method to bypass in-game mechanics and not the other.

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Originally Posted by Qhualor

You can expect this one closed too for discussing quotes and posts from a closed thread. I don't mind discussing exploits and the impact it has on you, me and Turbine but these threads never stick to a discussion tone.

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It seems you were right about this.

This thread is about exploits in general, I should not have used the recent Shroud as an example because too many people got hung up on that one issue.

Okay Cordovan - please end this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by slarden

This is not the only way to run a raid multiple times. You can also do it with multiple alts which is what many many people do - it's what I do. I can run shroud up to 24 times in a week without a bypass timer but need bypass timers if I want to run it more (or my schedule requires me to run mostly on the weekend) or if I want to bring my best characters.

Have you ever red-boxed, used an opener or window-farmed? If so you shouldn't be commenting on people using the shroud shortcut method which is the exact same thing.

As for store sales, I am sure Turbine would rather sell xp elixirs than have people getting fast xp using tricks to bypass the flagging requirements. It's been around a long time and nobody complains about it so it's not on Turbine's radar, but as others stated it's the exact same thing. You are bypassing a mechanic designed by Turbine to accelerate progress.

And sure people can earn xp without bypassing flagging requirements and not use xp elixirs, but they can also run shroud multiple times with alts and not purchase bypass timers. While I agree people did run shroud more due to not completing, I don't think any long-term problems resulted from that bug unlike real exploits like the card game and duping which were real exploits and really hurt the game.

The only "difference" is you feel it's ok to use one method to bypass in-game mechanics and not the other.

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The only "difference" is its within the rules Turbine had you agree to during account creation, to use one method to bypass in-game mechanics but the other method is not within those rules to do so.

FTFY

You are again rationalizing by pointing out an alternate intended way to continue playing the raid, which again doesn't mean those glitching the raid aren't breaking the rules doing so. "Well officer, I totally could have driven the speed limit, so that invalidates catching me doing 25 over the limit" - doesn't make sense. Saying you could have done it the intended way is not an excuse for doing it the unintended way.

Also: Your rationalization requires people to level multiple characters to 30, while glitching the raid requires leveling one character to 30.

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Originally Posted by Chai

The only "difference" is its within the rules Turbine had you agree to during account creation, to use one method to bypass in-game mechanics but the other method is not within those rules to do so.

FTFY

You are again rationalizing by pointing out an alternate intended way to continue playing the raid, which again doesn't mean those glitching the raid aren't breaking the rules doing so.

Also: Your rationalization requires people to level multiple characters to 30, while glitching the raid requires leveling one character to 30.

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There is no difference in the rules - Turbine's own clarification cited earlier demonstrated that.

Answer the question, do you bypass flagging mechanics by redboxing, using an opener or window farming for faster xp? If not we know the answer is that you are fine bypassing these mechanics for faster xp.

Obviously the necro xp was designed with the assumption that you would have to run all the quests again to get the big xp from the end quest.