Archer guide

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Originally Posted by Zenako

What really gets me is when an archer pulls AGRO AWAY from a melee that already engaged it and had the mobs attention! HELLO, who has the dps here? Thought it was the melee by default? Guess it is not always that way ...:eek::confused: actually seen it happen.

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Well, the annoying scenario is encountering groups of mobs at a distance and then either the caster or the ranger will fire off pot shots immediately and draw aggro. Even hasted, melees can't out run an arrow or fireball.... so I guess it's not always what you are thinking either.

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Originally Posted by NXPlasmid

Well, the annoying scenario is encountering groups of mobs at a distance and then either the caster or the ranger will fire off pot shots immediately and draw aggro. Even hasted, melees can't out run an arrow or fireball.... so I guess it's not always what you are thinking either.

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Well with a competent archer, those mobs at range are dead before the gap is closed.

Are there poorly played archers, sure. Are there poorly played melees, absolutely. Are there poorly played any class you can mention, obviously. What apparently sticks in the craw of some, is that in most cases a poorly played character is characterized by things that they DON'T DO. While the perception of a poorly played archer is based on what they DO DO.

Example: Poorly played/geared melee will end up doing **** for damage, but you still see them swinging away. A poorly played/geared arcane can still cast that Wall of Fire but it will do bleep for damage and you have to run the mobs thru it 6-10 times instead of 2 or 3 times. A poorly played/geared healer will still cast some healing, but lack enough oomph to keep up with the demands in some encounters....etc...etc...
All those cases the character is doing what you expect them to do, just rather ineffectively, so their "badness" is reflected in what they manage to NOT DO with their actions.

On the other hand, a poorly played/geared archer does something, which ends up changing the nature of the encounter from the norm most are used to and want to maintain. A while back I recall one run thru a quest, Gwylans I think, our group had 3 competent archers, 2 fighter/barbs and a Bard I think. The fighter or Barb was concerned that we did not have a medivac (ie Cleric), but the archers told him, it would not be a problem....it wasn't. The melee focused toons had to work hard to actually get a chance to swing at a mob that wasn't already dead or dying.

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Originally Posted by Zenako

Well with a competent archer, those mobs at range are dead before the gap is closed.

Are there poorly played archers, sure. Are there poorly played melees, absolutely. Are there poorly played any class you can mention, obviously. What apparently sticks in the craw of some, is that in most cases a poorly played character is characterized by things that they DON'T DO. While the perception of a poorly played archer is based on what they DO DO.

Example: Poorly played/geared melee will end up doing **** for damage, but you still see them swinging away. A poorly played/geared arcane can still cast that Wall of Fire but it will do bleep for damage and you have to run the mobs thru it 6-10 times instead of 2 or 3 times. A poorly played/geared healer will still cast some healing, but lack enough oomph to keep up with the demands in some encounters....etc...etc...
All those cases the character is doing what you expect them to do, just rather ineffectively, so their "badness" is reflected in what they manage to NOT DO with their actions.

On the other hand, a poorly played/geared archer does something, which ends up changing the nature of the encounter from the norm most are used to and want to maintain. A while back I recall one run thru a quest, Gwylans I think, our group had 3 competent archers, 2 fighter/barbs and a Bard I think. The fighter or Barb was concerned that we did not have a medivac (ie Cleric), but the archers told him, it would not be a problem....it wasn't. The melee focused toons had to work hard to actually get a chance to swing at a mob that wasn't already dead or dying.

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Well, we certainly agree that good players play good, and poor players well... play poorly. Now that we have that cleared up, next...

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Originally Posted by Zenako

What really gets me is when an archer pulls AGRO AWAY from a melee that already engaged it and had the mobs attention! HELLO, who has the dps here? Thought it was the melee by default? Guess it is not always that way ...:eek::confused: actually seen it happen. Guess some melees can blow chunks too...:)

(In fairness, what might be happening is that some melees seem to have trouble staying close enough to a moving mob and end up wasting swings in the air, while the archer just keeps on hitting and hitting the target with almost no concern about the mob jumping about or moving. The continuous stream of damage could be what overpowers that early burst of melee DPS.)

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Is no doubt a ranged character can hit hard. That's a given that even a mildly strength ranger with 24-26 str + rams + favored + rage pot/spell + seeker(bloodstone) + 2enhancement(if elf) + bard buffed and a GS longbow is going to crit a high number ... Longbows are x3 come crit... and crits like an axe.

With manyshot on that 20 second burst far exceeds any dps by any melee ... it is up to 57 arrows (ave probably more like 40) during that period (((43rate min / 60 sec) * 20 sec) * 4 manyshot) which when improved precise on hits near every target in the line. This 20 sec period rips mob apart... even before element/alingmoent damages... I was in shroud the other day and my lightning II bow was on happy mode or something as I had not one but at least 16 times lightning strike fired off mutiple times in a single shot ... (2 or 3 arrows out of a multi-shot producing the strike at same time). It was weird.

The problem though is when 20 seconds gone by you have to wait another 100 seconds.

I have a pure ranged Arcane Archer, well okay I carry a muckbane/Madstone shield combo for oozes.
My primary weapon choice in groups is a para of puncturing with the force damage bonus. With improved precision I can target a mob on the backend and hit everyone inbetween. I can take out the casters or other ranged mobs while the melee's take on the paralysed mobs up front. With Manyshot and WoP stuff just dies, until Mod 9 hits, even then it will eventually die and it won't be able to hit me with a con of zero. I never run out of free arrows, I can summon stacks of GTFA until mod 9 goes live. Then my arrows gain GTFA. I don't always have the DPS to keep up with the melee's all the time, but then I don't have to. Now if I could only index my arrow collection and hot bar my collection of bane / slayer arrows I would laughing all the way to the vendors.

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Originally Posted by 96th_Malice

How is an archer different than anyone else to heal ? Its not an additional person in the party .... Its not like there is a Raid group of 12 ...... oh ya wait 13 there is an archer !

an archer will stand away from the party to range harry and thus will not get the mass heals and will require a separate heal if needed

Guaranteed we are going to take WAY less damage than the whack job melee in arms reach of Harry !

and many archers are stupid enough to keep ranging and stand in the path of the blades and die. worse are those that stand directly opposite of the healers and this causes the healers to waste time while looking for them to heal

And the whole mindset of we as ranged toons are not contributing to the party!!

Wrong again !

i'm not saying they are not contributing but rather not contributing to the best of their abilities

I am gonna start suggesting to the melee's in the shroud to start keeping up with killing AND be able to keep themselves buffed and healed at the same time !!

Oh wait .... they cant !!

GIMPS !!

:)

We are not a hinderance .... we save clerics plat and mana !!

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on my fighter, i have a raid buffed ac of 71 while twf, i dun need a babysitter. i carry 2 wands, 200 csw pots and a stack of 100 heal scrolls. with a 30 umd i can take care of myself pretty well. this works well enough for part 1 and 2. as for part 4 and 5, we box in harry so the archers will not get squished. try kiting harry :)

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Originally Posted by SqtYork

I have a pure ranged Arcane Archer, well okay I carry a muckbane/Madstone shield combo for oozes.
My primary weapon choice in groups is a para of puncturing with the force damage bonus. With improved precision I can target a mob on the backend and hit everyone inbetween. I can take out the casters or other ranged mobs while the melee's take on the paralysed mobs up front. With Manyshot and WoP stuff just dies, until Mod 9 hits, even then it will eventually die and it won't be able to hit me with a con of zero. I never run out of free arrows, I can summon stacks of GTFA until mod 9 goes live. Then my arrows gain GTFA. I don't always have the DPS to keep up with the melee's all the time, but then I don't have to. Now if I could only index my arrow collection and hot bar my collection of bane / slayer arrows I would laughing all the way to the vendors.

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Even though I know it's false, let's say that we (the archer-hater population) were to concede that archers dominate trash mobs. We'll agree that archers can't be touched on an open field full of trash.

So what? Any noobie rogue with a masterwork dagger and a flank post can dominate trash. There's a reason it's called TRASH. The simple fact is that archers don't contribute their fair share when it matters... when DPS is needed.

It burns me up that people can't see outside their melee only DPS box.

If you want to keep playing the buff/swing/swing/swing/heal/heal/heal game fine, but some of us would like to do things a little differently.

There's a lot more to this game than the Shroud.

And even there.
If the Archer in question is a Ranger, what do you need to worry about healing him for?

Ignore him. He'll either not get hurt at all, or heal himself if he's a decent player.

Everyone of my chars who has ever done the shroud has burned up a ton of my own pots. Either because I'm squishier than the average meleer and scared the cleric can't keep up, or because I was attacking at a distance for some reason...archer, caster...etc.
My Ranger barely gets hurt in there at all.
My Wizard ranges after SP are gone, and takes fireball and blade damage, but I take care of myself.

I don't expect any cleric to stop healing those who choose to get beat up by the pifiend's claws to worry about me. I'm ranging cause I don't want to get hurt in the first place.

And if you take a full group of rangers in there, the Pit Fiend's damage becomes a non-issue.
You might get beat up a lot by the many waves of devil minions, or blades in part 5...etc.
Yes, ranged is slower.

But anyone who cannot see the tactical advantage of hurting your enemy from out of range of his attacks is an idiot IMO.

And anyone who has ever paid attention in a group of ranged specced chars will know that there are many many advantages to ranged combat in DDO.

But. one tactic is never enough.
There is a time to range and a time to melee.
Can't block a door very well with a bow.
Even the best archer in the game will probably do better meleeing a portal. (depending on weapons of course)
Anything that regenerates should probably be surrounded and meleeed in general.

Perhaps the biggest issue is that every member of the party needs to work together in a tough quest......or even in easy ones if everyone is to enjoy it.

Superior DPS does not mean superior damage in all situations.
Inferior DPS does not mean useless either.

And ranged combat for a ranged specced char is not nearly as gimped as so many people seem to think it is.

You can crunch numbers all day, but those numbers don't take into account how many of your hits actually hit the target, or targets.
Doesn't take into account how many of those precious seconds of DPS is lost by having to move to engage your target, and switch targets when one drops.
How many of those hits do red damage numbers (since bows have an advantage there in some cases)
How many points you can add to your damage from special arrows.

A whole ton of variables that the number crunchers will pretend don't exist.
Let alone forget the most important concept of damaging something from beyond it's reach.

Don't get me wrong, I do think in general ranged DPS is behind melee.
But just how far behind depends on many factors.

And for the ranged specced char with some sense about how to get the most from his build.....it ain't that far behind.
And in some cases is better the the average melee guy who does not know how to squeese the most out of his build.

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Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow

And even there.
If the Archer in question is a Ranger, what do you need to worry about healing him for?

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I suppose that's true. It's not like the difference between him shooting his bow and not shooting his bow will really make an impact in the fight anyway. Good point.

Heh, I thought this was going to be a cynical post with nothing in the first post :P. Archer guide, nothing in it :)

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Originally Posted by Demoyn

I suppose that's true. It's not like the difference between him shooting his bow and not shooting his bow will really make an impact in the fight anyway. Good point.

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My char Talonkage has only about 12 Shroud completions. Way less than most people. (since I don't like doing the same quests over and over again, every three days)
I've always chose to range him with Talonkage.

But yet even with so few attempts, compared to most.
Even with my slow useless bow pecking away at him.

Somehow....

I managed to copy from my combat log, into my bio, at the end of the quest.

You killed Ariirriiaaatrix(sp)

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Originally Posted by NXPlasmid

That's the point isn't it? There no way you could get through a real dungeon, or encounter with a large number of enemies using a bow in real life, or this game.

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Or so thought the French, until one English King schooled them with an army comprised of almost all Archers.

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Originally Posted by Emili

The Welsh Longbow <- yes that's right the English first met the long bow made from yew via Wales. The Welsh fend off England's invasions for near a century and is reputed they could pierce through 4" thick of wood. Latter was adapted by the English. Even then, It was a commoner's weapon... They used them for hunting to put food on the table. When come time to raise armies ... what do they bring? The long bow. A good bowman could fire 3-4 arrows a minute.

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A mite few more arrows per minute than that...

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Originally Posted by Lo_Pan

I believe Sir, that recent research has proven this to be incorrect. Recent research has led us to believe that the use of longbows (particularly in England during the middle ages) was because they were cheaper to maintain, and easier to train. The English victory at Agincourt was, in fact, more due to the mud than the 'ability' of an arrow to penetrate armor. The 'myth' that the longbow could pierce armor is, in fact, incorrect.

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Excellent work detective! *cough*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Xp56uVyxs&NR=1

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Originally Posted by Velexia

A mite few more arrows per minute than that...

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My point being Edward I after years of suffering the devastating effects of the weapon adapted the weapon to his use. Was not till a century latter where companies of skilled mercenaries could be honed in the skills to take advantage of the weapon at it's height.

Yes 5.000 longbowmen could rain down 30.000-75.000 missiles per minute at peaks. <- this is how it was used in the 100 years war. They stood in ranks and fired on command, young boys ran through the ranks providing replenishment of ammunition. It was It was a decisive weapon in armies. Edward III at Crecy routed Genoese mercenary crossbowmen and decimated charging French knights. The English lost near 100 men while between 10.000-20.000 casualties on the other side.

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Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow

My char Talonkage has only about 12 Shroud completions. Way less than most people. (since I don't like doing the same quests over and over again, every three days)
I've always chose to range him with Talonkage.

But yet even with so few attempts, compared to most.
Even with my slow useless bow pecking away at him.

Somehow....

I managed to copy from my combat log, into my bio, at the end of the quest.

You killed Ariirriiaaatrix(sp)

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my cleric kill arraetrikos too and ahe was solo healer in that run ;)

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Originally Posted by Talon_Moonshadow

My char Talonkage has only about 12 Shroud completions. Way less than most people. (since I don't like doing the same quests over and over again, every three days)
I've always chose to range him with Talonkage.

But yet even with so few attempts, compared to most.
Even with my slow useless bow pecking away at him.

Somehow....

I managed to copy from my combat log, into my bio, at the end of the quest.

You killed Ariirriiaaatrix(sp)

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Wow, congrats! Out of the millions of hit points he has, you managed to deal at least 1 damage at the right time! If only that made you good in some way...

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Originally Posted by Demoyn

Wow, congrats! Out of the millions of hit points he has, you managed to deal at least 1 damage at the right time! If only that made you good in some way...

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Yep.
With the odds so stacked against me, it's a shame I don't buy lottery tickets.

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Originally Posted by halls

Heh, I thought this was going to be a cynical post with nothing in the first post :P. Archer guide, nothing in it :)

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Nope No Archer Guilde to be found here...

This is the

"Everyone needs to build toons just like Demoyn or you're gimped guide ! "

BORING !!!

:)

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Originally Posted by Demoyn

Wow, congrats! Out of the millions of hit points he has, you managed to deal at least 1 damage at the right time! If only that made you good in some way...

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I really do honestly hope that you are just kidding around and not as arrogant as you make yourself sound.

Don't get me wrong ....Even though I have no use rolling a melee toon, I do respect what your cookie cutter builds bring to the DDO table during a quest.

However, you just seem to be out to trash and bash any toon that is not like yours

For the record .... splash ANYTHING in Cleric is Gimp !!

:)

There !

Do I feel better ?

Nope !!

I don't care why you chose to make this toon the way you did.

Who am I to judge ?

Who am I to say gimp ?

As long as you enjoy playing YOUR toon .... Thats all that matters.

Again, being 100% Ranged has never prevented myself from getting into quests, so I am not overly worried about what the select few ( VERY FEW ... Like all 2 of you ) think about Ranged combat

Anyways, I guess thats my rant for the day !! Later man !