Look, publically asking why handwraps aren't fixed EXCEPT Viscous?

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

Turbine was unable to make existing weapon properties work on handwraps prior to the module 7 release.

That means they did do something wrong.

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Very good reasoning, I'm impressed.
They add bugs all the time along with new features. It's always been like that, and it will always be, it's the same for all software that has deadlines.

Maybe Duke Nukem forever will have zero bug. But maybe I won't be playing computer games anymore either when it comes out.

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Originally Posted by Zaodon

Or, you know, they could not rush it and test it properly ......

o.O

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In my example I used the word immediately, for there are times that players are clamoring for a fix "right now". If they are to get it out immediately, I don't know of a way for them to not rush it and get it out.............immediately.

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

If it makes people feel better to think that I'm out to get them, uh... Good for them, I guess.

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Eladrin is out to get me! :eek:

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Originally Posted by tihocan

Plus, A_D mentioned how any new effect will be more complex to code since it will need to work on handwraps. That's true, but if you change it so that handwraps are coded like weapons, then the problem is any new unarmed feature you add will be more complex to code since it will need to properly work with/without handwraps as well.

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Except, his point was that the total realm of potential new unarmed features that could be added in the future is significantly smaller than the total realm of potential new weapon features that could be added in the future.

There are a lot of magical weapon enhancements left to be added to the game. On top of that, there's an entire realm of item-affecting spells that could potentially be added to the game. Plus any sort of character-weapon interaction effects you might want to add.

There really just aren't that many potential "unarmed features" that they could add in the future.

Not to mention that tech to add effects to weapons based on other aspects of the game (such as adding the "lawful" descriptor to handwraps at a specific monk level) is something that they really have needed to work on for a very long time, and something that would have opened up a big group of other possibilities (instead of creating a large pool of duplicate work).

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Originally Posted by Eelpout

In my example I used the word immediately, for there are times that players are clamoring for a fix "right now". If they are to get it out immediately, I don't know of a way for them to not rush it and get it out.............immediately.

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Sorry, that makes no sense.

Patch 7.1 was a patch to address some critical issues - bank transfer, blade barrier, etc. This had to be done "as fast as possible". While coding those critical, needed fixes, they had the option to include other, non-critical fixes into the patch, and they chose to include ones that were the least risky.

If players are demanding a fix for Bug A, then you need to release a patch that fixes Bug A. That means testing it properly, even if the testing takes a while. Immediately does not mean in a fixed amount of time, it means "as fast as possible yet still fully testing, no matter how long that takes."

If you release a fix to Bug B because it was faster, that hardly satisfies the players that wanted the fix for Bug A. If faced with a fast fix for Bug B or a slightly longer fix for Bug A, players would choose to wait a little longer for Bug A if that is the one they are "clamoring" for.

To date, 7.1 has been released, fixing vicious (Bug B), yet 7.2 has not yet been hinted at, announced or released to fix all the other issues with handwraps (Bug A).

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Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Not to mention that tech to add effects to weapons based on other aspects of the game (such as adding the "lawful" descriptor to handwraps at a specific monk level) is something that they really have needed to work on for a very long time, and something that would have opened up a big group of other possibilities (instead of creating a large pool of duplicate work).

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precisely.

item buffing spells factor in pretty big for pally/druids.
of course, druids are probably even less a priority now that they're not D&D 4e core...

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Originally Posted by Laith

of course, druids are probably even less a priority now that they're not D&D 4e core...

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There is no such thing as D&D 4e. There is a new game that has a D&D logo on it, but its not D&D.

/gets off soapbox on the complete suck-ness of 4e....

Hey Eladrin, any chance that fixing the material effects on handwraps will reintroduce the old Ward of Undeath bug? I need to fill up Mav's status window with some permanent "buffs" again.

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Originally Posted by Zaodon

There is no such thing as D&D 4e. There is a new game that has a D&D logo on it, but its not D&D.

/gets off soapbox on the complete suck-ness of 4e....

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the same thing can be/was said about 3.0. ;)

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Originally Posted by tihocan

Very good reasoning, I'm impressed.
They add bugs all the time along with new features. It's always been like that, and it will always be, it's the same for all software that has deadlines.

Maybe Duke Nukem forever will have zero bug. But maybe I won't be playing computer games anymore either when it comes out.

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QFT and absolute hilarity!:D

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Originally Posted by Zaodon

Sorry, that makes no sense.

Patch 7.1 was a patch to address some critical issues - bank transfer, blade barrier, etc. This had to be done "as fast as possible". While coding those critical, needed fixes, they had the option to include other, non-critical fixes into the patch, and they chose to include ones that were the least risky.

If players are demanding a fix for Bug A, then you need to release a patch that fixes Bug A. That means testing it properly, even if the testing takes a while. Immediately does not mean in a fixed amount of time, it means "as fast as possible yet still fully testing, no matter how long that takes."

If you release a fix to Bug B because it was faster, that hardly satisfies the players that wanted the fix for Bug A. If faced with a fast fix for Bug B or a slightly longer fix for Bug A, players would choose to wait a little longer for Bug A if that is the one they are "clamoring" for.

To date, 7.1 has been released, fixing vicious (Bug B), yet 7.2 has not yet been hinted at, announced or released to fix all the other issues with handwraps (Bug A).

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Firstly, I have never seen a thread on this forum start with the title of " Dear Dev's, ____ is really bothering me, but please take your time and fix it correctly". I could be terribly mistaken, but most look like. "____ is broken, fix it NOW" or some other variant that lacks any sort of patience (note: I am not disagreeing that the fixes should be done correctly as quickly as possible).

Secondly, It is entirely possible that some fixes pass QA while others are still being looked at and are indeed causing new and irksome issues. I think it would be less satisfactory, for me as a player, to wait on fixing anything at all, until all the fixes are ready to be patched in.

As an example, the vicious handwrap issue was an easy fix. The others are not so simple and are creating other problems. They are doing a patch and that is ready to go in, so it does. The others, unfortunetly have to wait. If they waited on all the easier fixes until the harder ones were ready to go, not only would we be waiting longer for any fixes, when it went through it might turn into a Module size download.

The developers no, but you obviously didn't sit in those little management meetings in which fixes were determined by number of complaints.

That is all.

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Originally Posted by arminius

I'm just telling you from my 10+ years of application management experience that that is not the way programmers generally work.

Bugs for them are most often value neutral. They are either just lines in an excel spreadsheet in a small shop or (as is more likely the case for Turbine) entries in software change control databases like PVCS or Subverision.

It is very often the case developers don't know or even care what the actual result of the bug is. They only know that Variable X is getting an invalid type error and it needs to reevaluated and given a valid type. WE see that as "ZOMG vicious is broken!!1!" but they don't see that end result at all. To them it's just another work item to get checked off to move on to the next one.

_

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This is going to be a long thread

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Originally Posted by willphase

I would consider game stability to be the main thing that gives players satisfaction. I'm sure if the game started crashing or fixes started adding more bugs than they fixed, then player satisfaction would drop a lot faster than the level it stays at if these minor issues are left unfixed for a while.

Garth

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This guy speaks the truth!

It was fairly clear early on that handwraps were working this way (the monk being the weapon). The enhancement showing up on the examine window made it obvious. When you could see the Unarmed Combat feat being added multiple times in order to add the additional damage to the monk strikes as they levelled, the mechanic was revealed.

Describing the vicious bug, the fact that wraps don't get eaten by slimes(they're not the weapon, the monk is and characters don't have durability) and the other quirks was fairly easy to do. The design choice has complicated the combat system where it becomes dense with interacting enhancements/attributes. A problem that is easy to describe is no longer easy to repair. The complaint that the issue which was a low hanging fruit has been picked off first simply because it was to the detriment of those taking advantage of it is verging on childish.

It is not as if they are denying that the other issues do not exist, simply that the fix implementation is more complex. If this was reversed and it were the Ghost Touch attribute that was fixed and vicious that was delayed, I doubt you would want the fix delayed since it would be in your favor.

I have a shroud ready monk myself and would dearly love to see these issues resolved. I am not willing to delude myself to the point that I blame the problems we're seeing on malice! Complex systems interacting in unexpected ways are more than enough trouble without adding some fictional "they don't like XXX and want us to suffer" foolishness.

I understand the desire to take your character all the way to the pinnacle of the content as fast as possible, but it seems that we're going to have to wait a bit for our monks.

Alternatively, we can scrape around and find some greater construct bane/transmuting QS or kamas and limp along until the issues are resolved.

Kraki

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Originally Posted by Angelus_dead

We have many clues. And overriding all that, we have the unescapable result: Turbine was unable to make existing weapon properties work on handwraps prior to the module 7 release.

That means they did do something wrong.

It's true that customers have incomplete knowledge to make these judgements... but you know what? Their producers have incomplete knowledge too.

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So I imagine you have never coded, or if you do, you code perfectly and have never had code returned to you for fixing.
If you have never had a bug in your code you are the first and only programmer to do so, congratulations on perfection, Seriously I highly doubt it though, and I bet you have had just as many stupid bugs come back to you as the rest of us who have coded enterprise levels apps have had.
It is very easy to second guess when there is no consequences, I mean whats the worst that can happen to you here. You get banned from a video game forum

Honestly, I think a lot of the ongoing suspicion is to some degree natural. But the event that fueled the suspicion that devs were out to screw players, more than anything else, was the whole handling of the abbot raid.

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Originally Posted by Kraki

It was fairly clear early on that handwraps were working this way (the monk being the weapon). The enhancement showing up on the examine window made it obvious. When you could see the Unarmed Combat feat being added multiple times in order to add the additional damage to the monk strikes as they levelled, the mechanic was revealed.

Describing the vicious bug, the fact that wraps don't get eaten by slimes(they're not the weapon, the monk is and characters don't have durability) and the other quirks was fairly easy to do. The design choice has complicated the combat system where it becomes dense with interacting enhancements/attributes. A problem that is easy to describe is no longer easy to repair. The complaint that the issue which was a low hanging fruit has been picked off first simply because it was to the detriment of those taking advantage of it is verging on childish.

It is not as if they are denying that the other issues do not exist, simply that the fix implementation is more complex. If this was reversed and it were the Ghost Touch attribute that was fixed and vicious that was delayed, I doubt you would want the fix delayed since it would be in your favor.

I have a shroud ready monk myself and would dearly love to see these issues resolved. I am not willing to delude myself to the point that I blame the problems we're seeing on malice! Complex systems interacting in unexpected ways are more than enough trouble without adding some fictional "they don't like XXX and want us to suffer" foolishness.

I understand the desire to take your character all the way to the pinnacle of the content as fast as possible, but it seems that we're going to have to wait a bit for our monks.

Alternatively, we can scrape around and find some greater construct bane/transmuting QS or kamas and limp along until the issues are resolved.

Kraki

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A very logical, thought out post. Too bad you are speaking above the heads A to Z's of the forums

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Originally Posted by Eladrin

Contrary to popular belief, we prefer to have patches fix more problems than they cause,

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I totally want to sig that!

(Although, the actual popular belief is that you introduce new, creative bugs to keep us on our toes, so each new patch and module it's like "ok guys, let's take it really slow, we don't know what will not work now...argh durn firewall isn't allowing spawns! Bah, good one devs!" :p)

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Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar

So I imagine you have never coded, or if you do, you code perfectly and have never had code returned to you for fixing.

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Wrong. I have decades of experience programming, for fun and for money. And obviously I've made some mistakes, because if I hadn't, it would mean I was wasting time working on projects below my ability.

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Originally Posted by ArkoHighStar

If you have never had a bug in your code you are the first and only programmer to do so, congratulations on perfection

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That's an utter non sequitur. It has NOTHNG to do with what's been written here, and is instead pulled fully from your imagination as an excuse to hurl some insults.