Changes Focused on Boosting Game Performance

Overall im ok with these changes. Seems like the overall numbers stay the same just the way their processes. Just glad u didnt mess with haste boost like u originally mentioned.

Curious tho what is going to happen with all the enhancements and past lives that effect offhand strike tho

I'm much too dense to understand this. Like how will this affect us as players? Will the only noticeable change (besides reduced lag of course) be that the numbers will look different to us or will this actually affect the balance of the game as well?

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Originally Posted by Madja

I'm much too dense to understand this. Like how will this affect us as players? Will the only noticeable change (besides reduced lag of course) be that the numbers will look different to us or will this actually affect the balance of the game as well?

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Long term your average DPS wont be affected much, no. Certain cases will be affected to a greater or lesser extent, though, depending how much they rely on the specific mechanics being altered. Anything that has a lot of proc-on-hit effects will be the most vulnerable. Also the change to Offhand Doublestrike is likely a huge buff for TWF build DPS specifically.

For most melee, what you'll see is, instead of getting a bunch of similar floaty numbers (ie two separate single strikes), you'll get fewer floaty numbers but occasionally they'll be twice as big. But it shouldnt change how long it takes to actually kill stuff, you're still doing the same damage at the same rate, its just clumping some of the attacks together.

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Originally Posted by Madja

I'm much too dense to understand this. Like how will this affect us as players? Will the only noticeable change (besides reduced lag of course) be that the numbers will look different to us or will this actually affect the balance of the game as well?

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In easier terms, if you're swinging a big tree you'll see higher damage number overall, but technically less frequently.

If you're swinging a little scalpel really really fast with lots of effects, well, you're going to see much less effects proc.

Also have some concern about non-damage proc effects as well as the beneficial things like fists of light, shadows cannot exist without light & ameliorating strike, as well as useful debuffs with a % chance of occurring.

On the other hand, if a multihit attack is being changed to be multiplied up... what impact is that going to have on eg. adrenaline? Does the 400% damage boost apply to only 1 part of that or the whole multiplied up amount? My ranger should be rocking over 100% doubleshot with the bow changes, so that means presumably every attack just gets 2x as powerful & occasionally 3x, so with 250+ ranged power from stacks of archers focus, extra crit multiplier from new changes, then hit adrenaline & use sniper shot... You know, i'm kind of ok with that bit.

Increase the chance to proc stuff.

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Originally Posted by Elixxer

In regards to something like spellsword dice or any added elemental damage, is the on-hit damage dice rolled and doubled (if multi-hit) before or after taking into account the enemy's elemental resistance?

Obviously, hitting for 100 damage two separate times and getting -40 damage on each due to elemental resistance is bad. I am just curious where this calculation happens and if this is different under this new system.

Apologies if this was already covered and I just missed it.







In general, though, it will be weird to not have floaty text lag. I am looking forward to it!

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Currently in the live game, this is how it functions. A creatures resist is taken from the base damage of the imbue before modifiers like spellpower. After the reduction, spell power amps up the damage and is then dealt as damage (you probably already know this but for anyone who doesn't). Currently, with a hit that counts as doubleshot, this process happens twice.

Example:

Imbue deals 10 fire damage, player has 100 fire spellpower. Enemy 1 has 5 fire resist, enemy 2 has 10 fire resist.

Player hits enemy 1: 10 fire damage - 5 from resist = 5 remaining damage. That 5 damage is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting in 10 total damage dealt to enemy 1. If the hit double shots, this damage calculation runs again, resulting in a second hit for 10 damage dealt (20 total).

Player hits enemy 2: 10 fire damage - 10 from resist = 0 remaining damage. That remaining is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting in 0 total damage dealt to the enemy. Regardless of the amount of doubleshot or spell power, the damage will ALWAYS be 0 since the resist drops the base down to 0 (any number times 0 is 0).
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If the new system works with this current proccing system in place, nothing will change damage wise, and imbues will still struggle with ele resist quite harshly (especially late). However, if multihit effects the BASE damage of the imbue for calculation purposes, that story changes.

Example:

Imbue deals 10 fire damage, player has 100 fire spellpower, enemy 1 has 5 fire resist, enemy 2 has 10 fire resist, enemy 3 also has 10 fire resist.

Player hits enemy 1 and multihits one additional time: 10 fire damage * 2 (for multihit) = 20 Fire damage. New base of 20 - 5 from resist = 15 remaining. That 15 is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting, in 30 total damage to enemy 1 vs 20 total on live.

Player hits enemy 2 and multihits one additional time: 10 fire damage * 2 (for multihit) = 20 Fire damage. New base of 20 - 10 from resist = 10 remaining. That 10 is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting, in 20 total damage to enemy 2 vs 0 on live.

Player hits enemy 3 and does not multi hit: 10 fire damage - 10 from resist = 0 remaining damage. That remaining is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting in 0 total damage dealt to enemy 3. The damage from non-multi-hits wouldn't change.
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This is why, as you've pointed out, some of us are curious about where the damage calculation for multihit falls. If it applies FIRST in the order of operations for imbues, than this is a really nice buff for AA and EK. If it does not and functions as live where the damage is taken from the base for each would-be multihit, the damage would be (unfortunately) unchanged.

Besides less procs going off/less chances for things to fails saves vs them, debuffs like Track and Ooze will stack much slower too. Increase stack rates by multi-hit?

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Originally Posted by rabidfox

Besides less procs going off/less chances for things to fails saves vs them, debuffs like Track and Ooze will stack much slower too. Increase stack rates by multi-hit?

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I would think it would still be cheap to apply on-hit effects like that multiple times based on doublestrike/shot. Otherwise, this is a needless nerf to tactics, and debuff/crowd control procs (whether vorpal or percentage).

Also, why not take this opportunity to uncap melee doublestrike? Why give ranged the advantage here?

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Originally Posted by Xezom

Currently in the live game, this is how it functions. A creatures resist is taken from the base damage of the imbue before modifiers like spellpower. After the reduction, spell power amps up the damage and is then dealt as damage (you probably already know this but for anyone who doesn't). Currently, with a hit that counts as doubleshot, this process happens twice.

Example:

Imbue deals 10 fire damage, player has 100 fire spellpower. Enemy 1 has 5 fire resist, enemy 2 has 10 fire resist.

Player hits enemy 1: 10 fire damage - 5 from resist = 5 remaining damage. That 5 damage is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting in 10 total damage dealt to enemy 1. If the hit double shots, this damage calculation runs again, resulting in a second hit for 10 total damage dealt.

Player hits enemy 2: 10 fire damage - 10 from resist = 0 remaining damage. That remaining is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting in 0 total damage dealt to the enemy. Regardless of the amount of doubleshot or spell power, the damage will ALWAYS be 0 since the resist drops the base down to 0 (any number times 0 is 0).
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If the new system works with this current proccing system in place, nothing will change damage wise, and imbues will still struggle with ele resist quite hardshly (especially late). However, if multihit effects the BASE damage of the imbue for calculation purposes, that story changes.

Example:

Imbue deals 10 fire damage, player has 100 fire spellpower, enemy 1 has 5 fire resist, enemy 2 has 10 fire resist, enemy 3 also has 10 fire resist.

Player hits enemy 1 and multihits one additional time: 10 fire damage * 2 (for multihit) = 20 Fire damage. New base of 20 - 5 from resist = 15 remaining. That 15 is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting, in 30 total damage to enemy 1 vs 20 total on live.

Player hits enemy 2 and multihits one additional time: 10 fire damage * 2 (for multihit) = 20 Fire damage. New base of 20 - 10 from resist = 10 remaining. That 10 is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting, in 20 total damage to enemy 2 vs 0 on live.

Player hits enemy 3 and does not multi hit: 10 fire damage - 10 from resist = 0 remaining damage. That remaining is multiplied by spell power (thus doubled), resulting in 0 total damage dealt to enemy 3. The damage from non-multi-hits wouldn't change.
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This is why, as you've pointed out, some of us are curious about where the damage calculation for multihit falls. If it applies FIRST in the order of operations for imbues, than this is a really nice buff for AA and EK. If it does not and functions as live where the damage is taken from the base for each would-be multihit, the damage would be (unfortunately) unchanged.

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Damage multiplication for procs happens AFTER spellpower/other power scaling. That being said... I kind of feel like we should change our scaling to happen BEFORE we do resistance/reduction from damaging effects, to prevent scenario 3 in the new paradigm. I know scenario 2 in the live experience is massively frustrating, and if we're already in the combat code, why not go a little above and beyond? Right now I'm pretty sure damage from just regular ol weapon attacks doesn't have that problem with flat DR, right? This stuff should be consistent.

Unrelated, but from some chatter it's looking like Sneak (second number) stuff didn't get multiplied correctly, I can take care of that asap.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

I would think it would still be cheap to apply on-hit effects like that multiple times based on doublestrike/shot. Otherwise, this is a needless nerf to tactics, and debuff/crowd control procs (whether vorpal or percentage).

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Doing this would re-introduce the effects queueing problem. We are trying to reduce the number of on-hit procs. Applying them multiple times is not an option.

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Originally Posted by Xezom

I was wondering this too. Where doubleshot used to give you extra chance to proc your prism effects and AA CC effects (saves), it makes it sound like no matter how much doubleshot you have, you'll only get 1 roll rather than the 2-3 before depending on DS.

Additionally, how does the proc system interact with resists? If you hit a target for 10 on-hit fire damage and doubleshot, in the new system your number would come up as 20 fire damage against a target with 0 fire resist, but what if they have 5 fire resist? Will your shot do 10 fire damage [(10-5)*2] or will your shot be 15 fire damage [(10*2)-5]? I know currently the game subtracts resist off of the base damage when hitting a monster, therefore I suspect the first case (10 fire damage on hit after a doubleshot hit that's resisted at 5). Is this still the case or does doubleshot's damage boost effect the proc before resist is taken into account?

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If a double attack has a proc chance, they should double the % chance if they can't roll 2 procs.

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Damage multiplication for procs happens AFTER spellpower/other power scaling. That being said... I kind of feel like we should change our scaling to happen BEFORE we do resistance/reduction from damaging effects, to prevent scenario 3 in the new paradigm. I know scenario 2 in the live experience is massively frustrating, and if we're already in the combat code, why not go a little above and beyond? Right now I'm pretty sure damage from just regular ol weapon attacks doesn't have that problem with flat DR, right? This stuff should be consistent.

Unrelated, but from some chatter it's looking like Sneak (second number) stuff didn't get multiplied correctly, I can take care of that asap.

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Amen to that! A tweak to the order of operations for imbues and added elemental damages would go a long way to alleviate some pain points.

So we're in the same situation as live where you can still have scenario 2 happening. It's one of the pain points of the AA is when you hit scenario 2 (depending on your imbue and what content you're running that can be a frequent occurrence). Doesn't work the same way with flat DR, and weapons have decent ways of overcoming it using different weapons and (ironically) AA toggles form the core points. The ele DPS doesn't have this option and being factored in a different order makes for some confusing/frustrating moments.

Also unrealted, but Lynn I love the new fusible staves <333

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Doing this would re-introduce the effects queueing problem. We are trying to reduce the number of on-hit procs. Applying them multiple times is not an option.

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If a doublestrike hits and the proc rate (for example) is 6% for an item, for the doublestrike hit, the proc chance should be 12%. Fixed.

Is the doublestrike cap of 100% applied before or after offhand double strike. ie. If I have 120% doublestrike (capped at 100%) do I get 50% or 60% for offhand?

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Originally Posted by Certon

If a doublestrike hits and the proc rate (for example) is 6% for an item, for the doublestrike hit, the proc chance should be 12%. Fixed.

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We are trying to reduce the amount of times over a period that procs happen, and changes that put us to the same amount of procs per second will not fix our effects queue problem.

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Originally Posted by Lynnabel

Doing this would re-introduce the effects queueing problem. We are trying to reduce the number of on-hit procs. Applying them multiple times is not an option.

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I was thinking processing the single enqueued effect multiple times in a tight loop based on the doublestrike calculation would still be much cheaper than processing a whole separate attack, and putting the whole separate copy of the effect into the queue.

Otherwise, then could the single effect have double proc chance on doublestrike? For vorpal effects, perhaps an independent 5% (or 10% with PSWF or similar) chance to proc if doublestrike procs? For tactics, could it at least give a DC bonus, if doublestrike occurs, if double saves isn't possible?

Overall, it seems like the non-damage implications of this change aren't being considered.

edit: Oh, so the cost is primarily if the effect procs at all. In that case, at least multiplying stacking effects on doublestrike would be easy, right? That still leaves CC effects behind, though.

Seems like special attacks that multiply the damage, like adrenaline, or slaughter will definitely see a buff. Things like vulnerability and curses and stacking debuffs will take a big hit. There will definitely be unintended consequences from this which will be interesting to discover.

From my understanding, this will be a huge hit to master's blitz?

What about the case where I have a weapon that applies an effect that would increase the damage done by follow on strikes? I'm pretty sure I've seen that working for existing double-strike, eg I apply a vulnerability with the main strike, and then the doublestrike does additional damage. It sounds like we're losing that. Admittedly a small window, where you double strike on a blow that applies an effect that wasn't already present or capped, but still.

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Originally Posted by Monkey_Archer

Is the doublestrike cap of 100% applied before or after offhand double strike. ie. If I have 120% doublestrike (capped at 100%) do I get 50% or 60% for offhand?

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Currently, the cap means that either offhand or mainhand cannot go beyond 100% in effectiveness. So yes, stacking doublestrike past the cap will boost offhand past 50%. Now, granted, this may change, but it's what's currently on Lamannia.

Also to note as I've seen this asked, the proc multiplication will affect on-heal reflective stuff, like Fists of Light. If you heal 2 hp from punching someone, and then multi-hit that punch, that heal will be doubled to 4.

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Originally Posted by dkyle

I was thinking processing the single enqueued effect multiple times in a tight loop based on the doublestrike calculation would still be much cheaper than processing a whole separate attack, and putting the whole separate copy of the effect into the queue.

Otherwise, then could the single effect have double proc chance on doublestrike? For vorpal effects, perhaps an independent 5% (or 10% with PSWF or similar) chance to proc if doublestrike procs? For tactics, could it at least give a DC bonus, if doublestrike occurs, if double saves isn't possible?

Overall, it seems like the non-damage implications of this change aren't being considered.

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They've definitely been considered, but considering that our explicit goal is to reduce the amount of procs that are processed, this is kind of just what's happening and we're incredibly unlikely to make changes to counteract our own changes here. Right now players apply effects very very quickly, and after this change, they will apply them more slowly. Increasing the proc chance would produce the same amounts of procs per minute for that effects, which means our changes to performance would not work as well as we'd like them to, which right now seems like a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Xezom

Amen to that! A tweak to the order of operations for imbues and added elemental damages would go a long way to alleviate some pain points.

So we're in the same situation as live where you can still have scenario 2 happening. It's one of the pain points of the AA is when you hit scenario 2 (depending on your imbue and what content you're running that can be a frequent occurrence). Doesn't work the same way with flat DR, and weapons have decent ways of overcoming it using different weapons and (ironically) AA toggles form the core points. The ele DPS doesn't have this option and being factored in a different order makes for some confusing/frustrating moments.

Also unrealted, but Lynn I love the new fusible staves <333

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Alrighty, you've convinced me, I'll dive in and see what I can do to to stop Scenario 2. Glad you like the staves!

I'm also going to build out new fun little triple-strike and quadruple-strike icons so you can see just how many times you've struck with this. Right now our feedback only tells you if you've multihit and not how many times, so this kind of reporting is actually quite important. To the floaty text code!

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Originally Posted by Cocomajobo

[*]Offhand strikes will still be a separate "hit" and will roll their own damage from their own weapon and can still Doublestrike. However, we have removed the stat Offhand Doublestrike from the game. Your offhand now Doublestrikes at 50% of the Doublestrike of your mainhand. This means that if you have a 50% chance to produce an offhand strike, and 100% Doublestrike, your offhand will hit 50% of the time for 50% Doublestrike (so a 50% chance to deal double damage). Abilities and enhancements that used to provide Offhand Doublestrike no longer do so.

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Ok, so help me out here. I am twf monk with 100% DS (reaper buffed) and 90% offhand strike. Say i do 100 damage. What is the damage before and after U49. Is it the same? Just bigger numbers and less frequent? Or is there a nerf in there somewhere? I saw 50% thrown out there for offhand strike in an earlier thread, so just trying to understand if that was for example purposes or if that is the cap now for offhand strike.

Also, please keep this in mind if you do anything to monk ki attacks. In other words, less procs (due to less "hits", means less ki generated. Right now, monk benefits with double ki from doublestrike. This is bad potentially. Please keep this in mind.

Thanks!
Nico