The biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character

[Orangine]

The biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character. Let me explain my opinion. It's just an opinion based on personal experiences and feelings. Nothing too serious. I am sure there will be many comments saying how much they do well as a melee, without conveniently omitting their outrageous number of past lives. I am talking about a typical newbie here.

Let's not beat around the bush. For the most part, melee characters are subpar to casters or rangers (Not the class, just the playstyle) on all aspects except when it comes to DPS or tanking in high difficulty raids or high reaper quests when there are some CC involved. But let's say on R1, which is the most common difficulty in public groups, melees cannot compete with casters/rangers because monsters are simply too weak and die too fast.

A new player will innocently join a public group, which is typically on R1 difficulty to maximize XP, and they will realize that they won't have any kill. In fact, it will be a miracle if they can even land a hit before everything get one shotted by the casters or rangers. Of course since I have much experience as a caster, I know what to expect when I login with my melee. I know my strengths and I know this is absolutely normal and I appreciate the casters carrying me through the quest quicker. But I don't think this knowledge is obvious for a beginner and most importantly I don't think it's fun. Maybe I am wrong, but they probably thought that perhaps they would be on equal grounds with the other members of the group and be useful. Feeling useless is not fun unless of course you are knowledgeable and know what to expect.

I realized this while playing with a friend who is not very experienced. He usually plays a melee because that's what he enjoys and I decided to roll a caster to play with him. At first I was trying to play efficiently, just like in any public group in R1, which usually means just run ahead and 1 shot everything. Any experienced caster above level 5 can usually do it without trouble. Then I realized I had to slow down. Sure I would wait for my friend between each pack, but he never even had time to land a hit because enemies in R1 are just so weak and they die with a single aoe spell. I could tell he was getting frustrated and I realized that I had to purposely play badly so he could enjoy his melee character. Let him have kills and enjoy the game. We were both first lifers but the main difference is I was a sorc and him a fighter. Now I think everything is fine and he's having lots of fun since I had to downgrade my gameplay. Eventually I respec'd and focused on CC instead of damage so he can enjoy the game. Increasing the reaper difficulty is also not an option because self-healing and tanking as a melee fighter is too painful. I didn't even have to worry about my spell points because I could simply consume the souls.

Now imagine this guy joining a very typical random public group on R1 difficulty. Do you think he would have fun? I think there is no chance he would be even close to have any fun. It would leave him a bitter taste of uselessness. A new player who cares about being useful would either roll a caster/ranger just like everybody else or quit the game. Someone who enjoys playing a melee would most likely quit.

Why would anyone play a melee anyway, unless it's exclusively for raiding or high reaper content? They actually have to walk close to their enemies (zzz) in order to deal their lacking DPS while taking damage. And most of them have crappy self-healing that don't scale well. Like potions, you don't go far with potions as a newbie melee in R1. It sounds tedious just writing about it. I guess a melee is fun if you have low expectation and know what you are doing. It's true that melees learn decent self-healing from epic destinies, but it's meaningless if the average beginner won't even reach there.

Sorry for the long post and broken english.

Edit : typos

[Marshal_Lannes]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons. On hardcore, FVS is the most popular class but the next two would probably be paladin and some version of barbarian. Paladin and barbarians offer many advantages beyond kill count to new players. In terms of kill count, yes casters dominate up to R4 but once you get into 6 through 10 mobs start making their saving throws and melee dramatically close the gap. Melee also has a major advantage in most raids.

[Oxarhamar]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons. On hardcore, FVS is the most popular class but the next two would probably be paladin and some version of barbarian. Paladin and barbarians offer many advantages beyond kill count to new players. In terms of kill count, yes casters dominate up to R4 but once you get into 6 through 10 mobs start making their saving throws and melee dramatically close the gap. Melee also has a major advantage in most raids.

It's still a problem for new players especially when they are feeling like they are contributing nothing many players don't like to pike even if you do

Feeling like they contributing nothing they ain't going to be sticking around until raid scene

There was a screen cap of classes data on HCL that will prove you wrong with that guess

[droid327]

A new player will innocently join a public group, which is typically on R1 difficulty to maximize XP, and they will realize that they're basically getting XP for free

This is called powerleveling in most games, and is usually something players actively welcome

You can make an argument the game is doing a disservice by not letting new players get more experience with their builds before they advance to higher-level content, but you cant really make it out to be a bad thing that you're basically getting the maximum amount of XP you can get just for running through a map

[Arellano]

A new player isn't going to be on equal footing or be anywhere close to as useful as the other veteran members in a typical R1 PUG.

If I was playing a melee in a group of newbies with tricked out ranged and caster builds I would still probably lead the kill count or compete solidly...

This isn't because I'm particularly skilled mind you, it's because about 62% of my total brain capacity is dedicated to knowledge about a decade-and-a-half old game no one's heard of...

[elvesunited]

I'd say the biggest mistake a new player can make is to group with a power-leveling group.

Then you won't be able to enjoy the quests. Do the game with other new players. ( good way to do that is not run higher than elite )
Actually explore the dungeons. Beat the enemy on your own or with players of similar strength. Do the optionals.

Why ruin the experience by doing a quest the first time with a bunch of power levelers who burn through a quest so fast you barely know what happened?

[BiggerTroll]

A new player isn't going to be on equal footing or be anywhere close to as useful as the other veteran members in a typical R1 PUG.

If I was playing a melee in a group of newbies with tricked out ranged and caster builds I would still probably lead the kill count or compete solidly...

This isn't because I'm particularly skilled mind you, it's because about 62% of my total brain capacity is dedicated to knowledge about a decade-and-a-half old game no one's heard of...

Carry me Daddy.

[Fauxknight]

I'd say the biggest mistake a new player can make is to group with a power-leveling group.

Agreed. Even as a ranged or caster a new player is not going to be contributing significantly to kill counts in a power-leveling group. The only difference here in not being a melee is that they'll die less. The best contribution a new player would have in such a group might be as a healer, which is (usually) not a good option for solo work or learning the game.



Melee is generally the most forgiving option for new players, and learning the game is done best by not joining power-leveling groups. In fact in my experience most new players who try to join power leveling groups over simply enjoying and learning the game end up burning out fast and quitting

[Drachmoril]

Maybe this is true within the skillspace of "a moderately experienced player compared to a complete newbie," but beyond that, this post is perfectly inaccurate.

First, for the veteran: you can absolutely blast through low-mid level heroic content on a melee. As fast or faster than any other option. Go roll a brand new barb, pick up a greataxe, and enjoy holding the W key on elite / R1 until about level 16 - where you'll only need to make some slightly more conscious choices about how you plan to stay alive. THF in particular is in a very good place. And my current SFW bard / barb / cleric build is perhaps the fastest heroic leveler I've made to date (finally, a one-day TR seems quite doable!). Admittedly an optimal heroic leveler is probably an EK inquis these days, but it doesn't matter much when you can one-shot things on a SWF hitting things at the speed of light, traveling with full bard + barb + sprint boost speed bonuses... and this is from about level 3 to 30.

And, for the completely new player: there is little stronger than a THF at low levels, especially in the hands of someone who has absolutely no idea what they are doing. Sure, an inexperienced player isn't going to achieve even a fraction of their class's potential power. But that rings true with any of your ranged / casting counterexamples; and with a barbarian, pally, ranger, or fighter, it's kind of hard to go wrong when your play demands holding down the attack button.

I've seen new players completely underuse their spell point pool as a sorcerer, or fail to make the optimal build / play decisions when leveling any ranged, casting, or melee class. Noting how you had to slow yourself when playing with a *newbie* should tell you next to nothing about the actual class balance. This will be true of any class matchup. A skilled sword-and-board pure fighter will absolutely blaze past any newbie caster / ranged build. Either you're having a discussion about new player experience, or veteran viability, but not both.

And if you want to talk killcount, I have been playing melee for my last few lives (fully-DPS-optimized THF, then SWF more recently), and can count the number of times I've failed to dominate the killcount from 1-20 on one hand! (Notable exceptions being quests with large packs of mobs on a SWF, when partying with a skilled aoe DPS). I'm not saying melees are far and away stronger than other heroic options. Rather, with a very active playstyle, and very DPS-optimized character building / gearing, you can dominate regardless of what build you play (if, like me, you center your fun around such things!)

Build balance aside, your original claim just doesn't hold up. ANY new player will contribute almost nothing in a super zerg group. (By the way, props for slowing down! I also like to slow down greatly when showing new players the ropes). But if you're talking "mistakes," melee classes are far more forgiving to build when compared to the sorcerer who can't easily swap their spells, or almost any more nuanced specialty class. And they are far more forgiving to play, when swinging your greataxe often IS the best thing you could be doing right now. I will admit that a bow ranger is also quite easy for a new player to stumble into great DPS success with. And, of course, a sorcerer, with a bit of feat and spell guidance (maximized+empowered SLAS will dominate low levels, then pick up big-name AOE damagers, for instance).

[Weemadarthur]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons.

Just for novelty value (and possibly shock value too so sorry if your drinking coffee when you read this Marshal) I 100% agree with this. Melee is the easiest class to learn to play on (I always recommend either pally or Barb for 1st lifers). A new player will never break any records regardless of class yet the combination of good survivability with adequate damage (even on bad build variants) makes Barb or Palli a lot more forgiving than any ranged or caster build.

[Bluenoser]

No, I think the biggest mistake would be rolling up a first-life, level 1 wizard and then trying to solo only with spells. There's a reason you hire Byron Scoutsword the barbarian to do those first couple of levels for you.

[slarden]

Of all the threads complaining about melees seem off-base to me, but this one is by far the most baffling and that is a high bar to reach as the other threads are quite baffling as well.

Last summer I created a new free-to-play account and experimented with melee, ranged and casters and finally settled on Paladin to level up.

A melee is hands-down the best build for not only a new player, but also a vet with a new character on a new ftp account. My paladin had no tomes, no hand-me downs, no money spent on the ftp account and I was able to solo almost every heroic quest in the game on R1. Casters and ranged were much tougher to solo which is why I gave up on those builds after testing and settled on paladin.

The reason melee and specifically paladin is really good is very simple - strike through and no cost for dps was a major dps boost. Paladin KOTC Tier 5 is also quite amazing once you get there, but the whole tree is great.

So nothing changed since U51 besides the removal of meld and literally nothing changed with levels 1-20 which is where new players start.

it's the same coordinated lobbying we've seen in the past from the same group of people. They are salty that casters got a dps boost and want moar power even though melees still significantly out-dps casters. It doesn't matter that they are top dps, it doesn't matter that they are highly effective in raids and R10s. This group will always demand moar power and nerfs to other builds.

I don't play one style, I play them all. 2 of my main charcters are melees including my primary raiding character and primary R10 character.

[MaeveTuohy]

No, I think the biggest mistake would be rolling up a first-life, level 1 wizard and then trying to solo only with spells. There's a reason you hire Byron Scoutsword the barbarian to do those first couple of levels for you.

One of the few parts of DDO that remains true to PnP. :)

[Question2005]

OP hit the nail on the head. It is exactly what my new player experience was like when everyone told me to roll a paladin.

The melee experience when leveling is awful. The game is extremely biased against melee and its worse at cap after meld was nerfed.

The first ranged life i did (inquis)...after nothing but melee lives...was amazing. Its like trying to play an online FPS game with a 56k modem and then switching to fiber internet...the difference is that big.

I was actually able to kill mobs when running in a party. My survivability sky rocketed even though i was wearing light armor and had lower PRR/hp. My DPS also sky rocketed, especially when leveling...inquis when leveling massively outdpses most melee builds and pre-buff 2HF. I could take on way tougher encounters solo and because i was killing stuff so much faster, my quest clear times were much faster as well. No more did i have to slowly run from one archer to another archer mob...i could just stand still and gun them down like i was using a machine gun.

On a melee life, you are stuck running slowly into range while the ranged/casters in the party do all the work, at least when leveling. Most new players are not going to find this fun. They want to feel like they are contributing to the party.

Its just sad the way melee has been butchered in this game. In D&D, a 2HF powerattacking fighter is the king of raw damage and most encounters take place at ranges short enough that it only takes one or two rounds to run into melee range before the fighter can start swinging. In DDO, spellcasters can cast 1 spell per second and ranged builds can put out a ridiculous amount of attacks while kiting effortlessly, and they can shoot from the edge of the screen.

To put things into perspective, in D&D, a fighter in heavy armor can run up to 80 ft in one round (6 seconds). Thats the range of a light crossbow before it starts taking penalties. In DDO, by the time a fighter runs into range, pretty much all the mobs are already dead, so he serves no purpose.

In D&D, melee massively outdamages ranged because they get str mod to damage while ranged gets nothing. In DDO, only 2HF outdamages ranged, and only at cap. And im not even sure if 2HF still outdamages ranged since horizon walker is the new hot sauce apparently.

I would recommend ranged builds to new players, but for some funny reason, the best ranged builds all require paid expansions (sharn for inquis, saltmarsh for horizon walker). Deepwood stalker, arcane archer, mechanic, battle engineer...they are all badly obsolete now. And with casters, they are going to struggle with SP and spell DCs, ontop of being really squishy without past lives and reaper AP (getting nuked into oblivion from AOE spam, since DDO doesnt have spells to protect against that).

[Arkat]

I'd say the biggest mistake a new player can make is to group with a power-leveling group.

Then you won't be able to enjoy the quests. Do the game with other new players. ( good way to do that is not run higher than elite )
Actually explore the dungeons. Beat the enemy on your own or with players of similar strength. Do the optionals.

Why ruin the experience by doing a quest the first time with a bunch of power levelers who burn through a quest so fast you barely know what happened?

Yeah, this is more of an issue for new players than Melee vs. Ranged vs. Spellcasters.

[TFerguson]

Better advice is new players shouldn't run too much with veterans. We'll ruin their fun.

Learning to play together with people of the same experience level as you is a great joy in this game, why ruin that? Don't rob yourself of the fun.

[Weemadarthur]

OP hit the nail on the head. It is exactly what my new player experience was like when everyone told me to roll a paladin.

The melee experience when leveling is awful. The game is extremely biased against melee and its worse at cap after meld was nerfed.

The first ranged life i did (inquis)...after nothing but melee lives...was amazing. Its like trying to play an online FPS game with a 56k modem and then switching to fiber internet...the difference is that big.

I was actually able to kill mobs when running in a party. My survivability sky rocketed even though i was wearing light armor and had lower PRR/hp. My DPS also sky rocketed, especially when leveling...inquis when leveling massively outdpses most melee builds and pre-buff 2HF. I could take on way tougher encounters solo and because i was killing stuff so much faster, my quest clear times were much faster as well. No more did i have to slowly run from one archer to another archer mob...i could just stand still and gun them down like i was using a machine gun.

On a melee life, you are stuck running slowly into range while the ranged/casters in the party do all the work, at least when leveling. Most new players are not going to find this fun. They want to feel like they are contributing to the party.

Its just sad the way melee has been butchered in this game. In D&D, a 2HF powerattacking fighter is the king of raw damage and most encounters take place at ranges short enough that it only takes one or two rounds to run into melee range before the fighter can start swinging. In DDO, spellcasters can cast 1 spell per second and ranged builds can put out a ridiculous amount of attacks while kiting effortlessly, and they can shoot from the edge of the screen.

To put things into perspective, in D&D, a fighter in heavy armor can run up to 80 ft in one round (6 seconds). Thats the range of a light crossbow before it starts taking penalties. In DDO, by the time a fighter runs into range, pretty much all the mobs are already dead, so he serves no purpose.

In D&D, melee massively outdamages ranged because they get str mod to damage while ranged gets nothing. In DDO, only 2HF outdamages ranged, and only at cap. And im not even sure if 2HF still outdamages ranged since horizon walker is the new hot sauce apparently.

I would recommend ranged builds to new players, but for some funny reason, the best ranged builds all require paid expansions (sharn for inquis, saltmarsh for horizon walker). Deepwood stalker, arcane archer, mechanic, battle engineer...they are all badly obsolete now. And with casters, they are going to struggle with SP and spell DCs, ontop of being really squishy without past lives and reaper AP (getting nuked into oblivion from AOE spam, since DDO doesnt have spells to protect against that).

There is 1 thing that you (and others that post this same message) overlook. Those palli lives you ran made your ranged build a lot lot better. By the time you got to starting on a ranged build you already understood the games mechanics, had at least a semi decent amount of build and quest knowledge plus were running a 32 point+ build. That makes for a much easier game as a ranged than if you try playing one with no game knowledge, no gear, no understanding of build mechanics and a 28 point character.

In this game knowledge really does equal power. Knowing how to play means a lot more than your class, playstyle or gear setup. To get that basic knowledge at the start of the game melee is most definitely the option with the easiest learning curve and is the hardest to get wrong. Once you have that basic knowledge and 32 point character access though, then I would agree with you.

Lastly DS, AA and Mech are far from obsolete. A good DS/AA build can still put out comparable dps to an inquis, a good mech build is actually better sustained dps and some of the absolute top ranged dps builds either invest heavily or at least splash into those trees. Don't fall into the trap of thinking just because inquis is easy that it is best. Other options can be better they just require a lot more work to achieve.

[Weemadarthur]

Better advice is new players shouldn't run too much with veterans. We'll ruin their fun.

Learning to play together with people of the same experience level as you is a great joy in this game, why ruin that? Don't rob yourself of the fun.

I would actually say this is great advice except there are very very few new players. Its hard to quest with a group that just isn't there or at the wrong level range.

[ahpook]

Better advice is new players shouldn't run too much with veterans. We'll ruin their fun.

Learning to play together with people of the same experience level as you is a great joy in this game, why ruin that? Don't rob yourself of the fun.

Many have already said this in response to OP but it can not be said enough and thus I will say it again:

The biggest mistake a new player can make is to run reaper content with vets. They will not have the skills or knowledge to be effective no matter the class they play. Reaper is not forgiving of mistakes and a new player that goes off or ahead will die unfairly and not enjoy the game.*


I would actually say this is great advice except there are very very few new players. Its hard to quest with a group that just isn't there or at the wrong level range.
Even then the advice stands. It is probably better to solo and learn to play rather than group with vets running reaper.

* as with all things some exceptions apply especially for exceptional people. Most people are not exceptional.

[Orangine]

Of all the threads complaining about melees seem off-base to me, but this one is by far the most baffling and that is a high bar to reach as the other threads are quite baffling as well.

Last summer I created a new free-to-play account and experimented with melee, ranged and casters and finally settled on Paladin to level up.

A melee is hands-down the best build for not only a new player, but also a vet with a new character on a new ftp account. My paladin had no tomes, no hand-me downs, no money spent on the ftp account and I was able to solo almost every heroic quest in the game on R1. Casters and ranged were much tougher to solo which is why I gave up on those builds after testing and settled on paladin.

The reason melee and specifically paladin is really good is very simple - strike through and no cost for dps was a major dps boost. Paladin KOTC Tier 5 is also quite amazing once you get there, but the whole tree is great.

So nothing changed since U51 besides the removal of meld and literally nothing changed with levels 1-20 which is where new players start.

it's the same coordinated lobbying we've seen in the past from the same group of people. They are salty that casters got a dps boost and want moar power even though melees still significantly out-dps casters. It doesn't matter that they are top dps, it doesn't matter that they are highly effective in raids and R10s. This group will always demand moar power and nerfs to other builds.

I don't play one style, I play them all. 2 of my main charcters are melees including my primary raiding character and primary R10 character.

I think you misunderstood the overall point of this post. As I said, melees are good when it comes to DPS or tanking in high difficulty raids or high reaper quests. I was talking about the most common difficulty setting : R1. The reason why this post is directed toward this difficulty level specifically is because newbies are more likely to exclusively play in that difficulty when joining public groups. In R1, unless the casters/rangers are unexperienced or not focused, I have a hard time understanding how it's even possible to contribute less than a melee regarding overall damage output and kill count. The monsters are very weak and usually a single spell can clear an entire pack. This is from my experience as a caster anyway, either druid, fvs soul, wizard, sorc, or bard (at higher level). If I really want to maximize XP/Time, there is no way a melee character can compete because I am range and monsters are weak and they can be killed in an instant meanwhile the melee has to actually run close. Melees can solo quests very well although a bit slower but it works for sure. But I am wondering if new players with limited friends are really going to solo that much? Speaking for myself, when I begin a new MMO, I always try to group up with others. A beginner playing a caster or ranger will at least be able to land a few spells or hits before the mobs are dead. I can tell my beginner friend gets frustrated whenever he takes the time to walk up to an enemy, land a few hits and then the caster denies his kill with a finger of death or whatever other spell.

I play a lot of melee as well and I know what to expect whenever I run R1 with a public group. Casters 1 shot everything and I am all good with it because I know that my strengths as a melee don't shine in lower difficulties. My strengths shine in raids or higher reaper. But beginners don't know that, they want to feel useful. Anyway, hope you got my point. As I said, it's just an opinion based on my experiences with my beginner friend. My post is not true or false, it's just the output opinion from a beginner's perspective.

[Weemadarthur]

Even then the advice stands. It is probably better to solo and learn to play rather than group with vets running reaper.

* as with all things some exceptions apply especially for exceptional people. Most people are not exceptional.

Like I said I think the advice itself is good, it's just not always feasible to expect new players to want to solo in an mmo and grouping options are very few and far between.

[TFerguson]

I would actually say this is great advice except there are very very few new players. Its hard to quest with a group that just isn't there or at the wrong level range.

You're not wrong. There is no good solution for this.

[yfernbottom]

I would say there are about three classes of build that are so dead easy they are great for a new player;

1. 2HF mellee, Paladin or Barb
2. Ranged character focused on Inq. Artificer is an especially hard build to mess up.
3. A divine nuker, either a sun cleric or an avenging angel FS


Sorcerer might make the list if you are willing to put up with a slow and frustrating character until about level 12. You have to stick to SLAs or you will either do worse damage than a barbarian with a 2 hander (because the spells aren't maximized and empowered) or you will go OOM constantly. You will only have one decent AoE SLA, so your rotation vs more than one mob has a lot of down time in it. Yes Burning hands and acid spray can technically hit more than one mob but both the range and damage is absolutely terrible. Versus any opponent that is resistant to whateever damage type your "good" SLA uses, which will happen a lot, you may as well just run up and flail away with your feeble beat stick. Clearing an entire dungeon with a few mouse clicks at the ripe old age of level five is very different from my experience on low level sorcers.

On the other hand, nearly any half way decent 2hF build is amazing from level 1 on. I have been playing a second life paladin recently, and I tear up packs of mobs like they are made our of rice paper on that character (1-27 so far). Yes, I have to actually run over to them. But no mob is 100% immune to a sword to the face, or makes a reflex save and takes 0 damage.

[Orangine]

Many have already said this in response to OP but it can not be said enough and thus I will say it again:

The biggest mistake a new player can make is to run reaper content with vets. They will not have the skills or knowledge to be effective no matter the class they play. Reaper is not forgiving of mistakes and a new player that goes off or ahead will die unfairly and not enjoy the game.*


Even then the advice stands. It is probably better to solo and learn to play rather than group with vets running reaper.

* as with all things some exceptions apply especially for exceptional people. Most people are not exceptional.

It's true that a beginner caster or ranger cannot compete with a veteran caster or ranger. But at least they can land some spells or hit some mobs. My opinion is that it's much harder for a melee beginner to contribute because they have to run close and wait for their attacking animations. In R1, monsters are so frail that, in my experience as a caster, they usually die with a single spell. For somebody who wants to feel useful when they play in a group on R1(Which is the most common during leveling process), playing a melee is the worst option because melees strengths shine in higher difficulty raids or higher reaper where monsters have a lot more health. But I don't think this knowledge is obvious for new players. From my friend's perspective it is not anyway.

[Orangine]

You're not wrong. There is no good solution for this.

I agree. I don't think there is any solution for this and it's not a big problem as there are only very few new players anyway.

It's just something I realized while playing with my beginner friend.

[Tilomere]

It's true that a beginner caster or ranger cannot compete with a veteran caster or ranger. But at least they can land some spells or hit some mobs. My opinion is that it's much harder for a melee beginner to contribute because they have to run close and wait for their attacking animations. In R1, monsters are so frail that, in my experience as a caster, they usually die with a single spell.

I made a thread about this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/520958-Should-Sorcs-and-Alcs-AoE-1-shot-groups-of-mobs-while-leveling), exactly illustrating how fireballs related to melee and ranged builds when well-built.

My understanding is that SSG wanted to nerf sorc and alchemist in heroics, but the player's council convinced them to instead nerf meteor and multivial, and buff all other casters to the level of sorc fireballs, and remove RL belts. I guess it is good that the casters are balanced among each other, but that just expanded heroic imbalance to any caster vs. any heroic melee or ranged.


I agree. I don't think there is any solution for this and it's not a big problem as there are only very few new players anyway.


The problem is equally present if there is a veteran melee and veteran caster, if the caster is simply AoE 1 shotting the room. It is also present in a party of pure new players playing on lower difficulties, if the caster is simply AoE 1 shotting the room, like how OP is playing a new sorc with a new melee, or how hardcore is played. The solution I had proposed was to cut all heroic spell power itemization in half, to bring the power of veteran casters with good itemization down in heroics primarily, and also bring down to a lesser extent the power of newer casters with weaker itemization.

[elvesunited]

The problem is equally present if there is a veteran melee and veteran caster, if the caster is simply AoE 1 shotting the room. It is also present in a party of pure new players playing on lower difficulties, if the caster is simply AoE 1 shotting the room, like how OP is playing a new sorc with a new melee, or how hardcore is played. The solution I had proposed was to cut all heroic spell power itemization in half, to bring the power of veteran casters with good itemization down in heroics primarily, and also bring down to a lesser extent the power of newer casters with weaker itemization.

If they are slumming r1s then a melee character can take down a group of enemies just as easily as a caster. The only difference is that caster can take them down faster and at range. I've been in groups with an experienced melee where the only kills I got was bosses and reapers as they were the only enemies that couldn't be one shotted. But if you're a newbie caster in a group with a veteran melee you are still going to get dominated in the kill count. It just won't be as quick.

That said though lowering spell power isn't the best option. Sure it will give newbie non-casters more of a chance to take out trash, but it will also severely cripple the casters ability to take down reapers and bosses. The sorcerer is an unarmored, defense lacking character who survives because he takes out enemies before they can take him out. Lower his power and he can probably still take out the trash, but you'll cripple him with tougher foes.

[Enoach]

when discussing the new player running with vets, I often see it boil down to contributing means kill count. Since the start of DDO F2P Kill count has been the measure, but the problem with this measure it is simply the "Last Hit" count in most cases.

There are many ways to contribute to the success of a quest.

The biggest issue is the knowledge gap. Many vets have memorized the quest they are running, while the new player is not only learning what their character can do, they are trying to simply catch up with the group at the same time. Sometimes it will feel like trying to tie your shoes while catching the bus.

What I recommend to new players is to not be afraid to run a quest solo on normal. You can learn a lot about a quest when you get to do everything and can concentrate more on what is in the quest vs staying alive or keeping up with the fast-moving party. Another option is finding the more casual players/guilds. These still exist, they are not power leveling or going fast, they are simply here to have time to play a game.

[Monkey_Archer]

I would say there are about three classes of build that are so dead easy they are great for a new player;

1. 2HF mellee, Paladin or Barb
2. Ranged character focused on Inq. Artificer is an especially hard build to mess up.
3. A divine nuker, either a sun cleric or an avenging angel FS

This.

The issues that melee face balance wise has to do with higher difficulties, endgame and running with other builds (aoe nukers etc...)
New players will not experience any of this (except possibly the latter), so starting off as a melee is not only not a problem but even ideal, since its the best way to learn the game.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Most of these responses are being made by people who seem to never lead the kill count. Sladern has effectively pointed out that a well-built melee will shred content just as fast because kill count in heroics or R1-4 is all about speed. Most seasoned characters can crush the mobs we face so it becomes a math equation of who gets to them first. Barbarians and bards can move very, very fast. They can easily outdistance sorcerers who are using wings to keep up. I've played with some barbarians that move through a dungeon so fast that ranged characters never see them. Further, as has been pointed out several times, kill count and new player viability are not the same things. Finally, there are advantages to melee that extend far beyond kill numbers. Running Too Hot to Handle and the whole raid group is dead except for 3 paladins who finished the boss. You're going to tell me Paladin isn't viable? That simply isn't my experience with the game.

[Oliphant]

My Dalai Lama esq advice for new players is find some buds that want to help you catch up and put your focus on what helps your team and take your focus off yourself. You'll be a lot happier.

[TFerguson]

Most of these responses are being made by people who seem to never lead the kill count.

LOLz

[slarden]

I think you misunderstood the overall point of this post. As I said, melees are good when it comes to DPS or tanking in high difficulty raids or high reaper quests. I was talking about the most common difficulty setting : R1. The reason why this post is directed toward this difficulty level specifically is because newbies are more likely to exclusively play in that difficulty when joining public groups. In R1, unless the casters/rangers are unexperienced or not focused, I have a hard time understanding how it's even possible to contribute less than a melee regarding overall damage output and kill count. The monsters are very weak and usually a single spell can clear an entire pack. This is from my experience as a caster anyway, either druid, fvs soul, wizard, sorc, or bard (at higher level). If I really want to maximize XP/Time, there is no way a melee character can compete because I am range and monsters are weak and they can be killed in an instant meanwhile the melee has to actually run close. Melees can solo quests very well although a bit slower but it works for sure. But I am wondering if new players with limited friends are really going to solo that much? Speaking for myself, when I begin a new MMO, I always try to group up with others. A beginner playing a caster or ranger will at least be able to land a few spells or hits before the mobs are dead. I can tell my beginner friend gets frustrated whenever he takes the time to walk up to an enemy, land a few hits and then the caster denies his kill with a finger of death or whatever other spell.

I play a lot of melee as well and I know what to expect whenever I run R1 with a public group. Casters 1 shot everything and I am all good with it because I know that my strengths as a melee don't shine in lower difficulties. My strengths shine in raids or higher reaper. But beginners don't know that, they want to feel useful. Anyway, hope you got my point. As I said, it's just an opinion based on my experiences with my beginner friend. My post is not true or false, it's just the output opinion from a beginner's perspective.

First of all, your bolded experience match mine exactly which is why my main r10 character and my main raiding characters are both melee! So I am glad there is agreement melee shine in higher difficulties.

As I said I actually made an effort to level up a caster, ranged and melee soloing R1 on a free-to-play account with no tomes, hand-me-downs, etc. Everything I had was earned on that character fully ftp and there is literally video evidence of that all the way to 20.

My conclusion is that the absolute best character for a new player is melee and specifically THF melee. And furthermore it's not even close! More powerful characters can obviously be effective on any build and casters perform much better with higher grind power.

If your beginner friend joins a group and isn't able to keep up I can assure you it has nothing to do with build and everything to do with "Beginner". When I was new I learned the game by running with other newer players and soloing. Joining vets was a frustrating experience for me when I was a new player.

The absolute worst way to learn this game is by joining zerg groups - if you like your friend tell them to avoid that.


I made a thread about this (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/520958-Should-Sorcs-and-Alcs-AoE-1-shot-groups-of-mobs-while-leveling), exactly illustrating how fireballs related to melee and ranged builds when well-built.

My take on your post is that you were comparing an optimized sorc to a paladin basic attack which nobody opens with on a mob - which makes sense since your focus seems to be casters of varying types.

When I hit mobs with holy retribution and avenging cleave it literally wiped out the whole group at that level and most of that was with holy retribution - avenging cleave was just clean up. This is with a first-life paladin with full free-to-play limits, undergeared and on R1 vs elite in your example - and not a character with max ap, tomes, etc. as you were using on your sorc. The poor paladin performance in your example was due to operator error (incorrect attack sequence) and not representative of build strength. If I recall my strength was 16 and charisma 14 at that level with level-ups.

[Oxarhamar]

Most of these responses are being made by people who seem to never lead the kill count. Sladern has effectively pointed out that a well-built melee will shred content just as fast because kill count in heroics or R1-4 is all about speed. Most seasoned characters can crush the mobs we face so it becomes a math equation of who gets to them first. Barbarians and bards can move very, very fast. They can easily outdistance sorcerers who are using wings to keep up. I've played with some barbarians that move through a dungeon so fast that ranged characters never see them. Further, as has been pointed out several times, kill count and new player viability are not the same things. Finally, there are advantages to melee that extend far beyond kill numbers. Running Too Hot to Handle and the whole raid group is dead except for 3 paladins who finished the boss. You're going to tell me Paladin isn't viable? That simply isn't my experience with the game.

Talking about new players experience and THTH is 2 different things

Melee certainly fall behind but so does anything a new player is going to use next to veterans

[Artos_Fabril]

Shut up and heal, piker.
Edited for brevity.

[Weemadarthur]

Most of these responses are being made by people who seem to never lead the kill count. Sladern has effectively pointed out that a well-built melee will shred content just as fast because kill count in heroics or R1-4 is all about speed. Most seasoned characters can crush the mobs we face so it becomes a math equation of who gets to them first. Barbarians and bards can move very, very fast. They can easily outdistance sorcerers who are using wings to keep up. I've played with some barbarians that move through a dungeon so fast that ranged characters never see them. Further, as has been pointed out several times, kill count and new player viability are not the same things. Finally, there are advantages to melee that extend far beyond kill numbers.

I snipped the THTH part off the end as I agree with OX that it has very little to do with this conversation. THTH is not something I expect many new players will ever survive regardless of build.

However (and I honestly never ever thought I would say this) everything that I have quoted above I think is spot on. I especially agree that the advantages to melee extend far beyond the kill count.

[Alled78]

The biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character. Let me explain my opinion. It's just an opinion based on personal experiences and feelings. Nothing too serious. I am sure there will be many comments saying how much they do well as a melee, without conveniently omitting their outrageous number of past lives. I am talking about a typical newbie here.

Let's not beat around the bush. For the most part, melee characters are subpar to casters or rangers (Not the class, just the playstyle) on all aspects except when it comes to DPS or tanking in high difficulty raids or high reaper quests when there are some CC involved. But let's say on R1, which is the most common difficulty in public groups, melees cannot compete with casters/rangers because monsters are simply too weak and die too fast.

A new player will innocently join a public group, which is typically on R1 difficulty to maximize XP, and they will realize that they won't have any kill. In fact, it will be a miracle if they can even land a hit before everything get one shotted by the casters or rangers. Of course since I have much experience as a caster, I know what to expect when I login with my melee. I know my strengths and I know this is absolutely normal and I appreciate the casters carrying me through the quest quicker. But I don't think this knowledge is obvious for a beginner and most importantly I don't think it's fun. Maybe I am wrong, but they probably thought that perhaps they would be on equal grounds with the other members of the group and be useful. Feeling useless is not fun unless of course you are knowledgeable and know what to expect.

I realized this while playing with a friend who is not very experienced. He usually plays a melee because that's what he enjoys and I decided to roll a caster to play with him. At first I was trying to play efficiently, just like in any public group in R1, which usually means just run ahead and 1 shot everything. Any experienced caster above level 5 can usually do it without trouble. Then I realized I had to slow down. Sure I would wait for my friend between each pack, but he never even had time to land a hit because enemies in R1 are just so weak and they die with a single aoe spell. I could tell he was getting frustrated and I realized that I had to purposely play badly so he could enjoy his melee character. Let him have kills and enjoy the game. We were both first lifers but the main difference is I was a sorc and him a fighter. Now I think everything is fine and he's having lots of fun since I had to downgrade my gameplay. Eventually I respec'd and focused on CC instead of damage so he can enjoy the game. Increasing the reaper difficulty is also not an option because self-healing and tanking as a melee fighter is too painful. I didn't even have to worry about my spell points because I could simply consume the souls.

Now imagine this guy joining a very typical random public group on R1 difficulty. Do you think he would have fun? I think there is no chance he would be even close to have any fun. It would leave him a bitter taste of uselessness. A new player who cares about being useful would either roll a caster/ranger just like everybody else or quit the game. Someone who enjoys playing a melee would most likely quit.

Why would anyone play a melee anyway, unless it's exclusively for raiding or high reaper content? They actually have to walk close to their enemies (zzz) in order to deal their lacking DPS while taking damage. And most of them have crappy self-healing that don't scale well. Like potions, you don't go far with potions as a newbie melee in R1. It sounds tedious just writing about it. I guess a melee is fun if you have low expectation and know what you are doing. It's true that melees learn decent self-healing from epic destinies, but it's meaningless if the average beginner won't even reach there.

Sorry for the long post and broken english.

Edit : typos

This is wrong for me.
Actually i would suggest a new pkayer starting with 20 paladin or 20 barbarian,.

I remember i did my 5th life sorcerer was a pain. The worst tr i ever did

I dont think new player should pretend to run Raid R8 as first life.

Then ranged are not bad especially repeaters.

Consider a new player doesnt know the game and the quest.
Normal or hard should be his difficulty. He can join r1 knowing is too diff. For him.


Expert player in a new life is different. Probably i would go ranged repeater

[Yokido]

I joined as a bard 14/6 cleric and have always been a "melee" caster. Started with a joke build of guards for lobster tavern lulz, but then learned people appreciate a proper build more so I started fixing it a few years back and never stopped.

Being new is being new, you will always be leagues behind everyone else for nearly every reason under the sun. From skill to quest/item/build knowledge. Also, take into account that many DDO players are pnp players, and the disadvantage to newer players widens immensely if they're completely new to the D&D universe.

If you ask me, the best way to prepare someone for playing DDO is to first tell them to start playing pnp 3.5 D&D for several years to get a good feel for how things work.

[Chilldude]

This is one of those threads where there are a thousand opinions and everyone, on some level, is right while, on some level, everyone is also wrong. This biggest problem is that the thread title is ambiguous and provocative while not directly addressing the real issue.

In heroic quests of any difficulty and epic quests up to low skull reaper, a caster's ability to rapidly kill large numbers of mobs far exceeds that of melee. It's not even close. It's ridiculously unbalanced. To add insult to injury, in a very literal sense, divines are now on par offensively with other casters while maintaining full access and competency with restorative spells.

Yet in epic quests of mid to high skull reaper casters begin to fall on their face. The mobs saves get ridiculously high, halving nearly ALL caster damage, so when you attack a roomful of mobs and they don't even die quickly, let alone instantly, they come after you and rip you to shreds. Casters either have to obtain astronomically high stats from grinding past lives and reaper or switch to more of a CC/supplementary DPS role.

It's all comes down to the developers having had no idea what they were doing for so many years that it's not only gotten away from them, it's now at the point there's little to nope hope of ever getting it back. Casters need balance, and balance is what the developers are worst at. Shrines are an absolutely terrible form of resource replenishment, so bad that I can't think of a methodology that could even come close in terms of how truly awful shrines are. For shrines to govern caster resources effectively you would have to design dungeons within tolerances that would make the engineers working on the James Web Space Telescope cringe. When things got untenable, rather than revamping resource management, they just started throwing more spell points at the problem. When that didn't work they through in SLAs. Ultimately, when it came to reaper, they just threw their hands up in the air and said, "I don't know what to do. Maybe we can just have mobs drop spell points on the ground when they die?"

Casters in DDO could be amazing. All the parts are there to make something truly special. It's extremely frustrating and disappointing to see what casters could be compared to what they are.

Magical Training should provide spell point regeneration all the time, not just up to 12 spell points. Spellsinger's Spell Song Vigor should increase this rate by a percentage, I imagine ~10% would be very compelling yet not overly powerful. Other spell point restoration methods should affect this regeneration rate, not provide spell points directly. Feats and enhancements could also affect this

Metamagic is where casters could be very cool in DDO. Instead of just set it and forget it metamagic toggles, metamagic should be how the player controls the caster in different situations. Being good at playing a caster would come down to how well you manage the various metamagics which all correspond to spell point usage and cast time. I'm not a paid developer for DDO, so I'm not going to take the time to develop the entire system for them here in this response, mostly because it'd be a complete waste of time on my part. However, I'll provide a few examples to demonstrate...

It is extremely important to keep in mind these are merely examples of the concept of how metamagics could influence spells in order to modify their power and spell point consumption. The actual in-game mechanics would have to be fleshed out through a process of testing and balancing. Every time I post an example to illustrate an idea people tend to focus on the example rather than the idea, so I try to avoid examples here on the forums. However, in this case, examples are the quickest and easiest way to illustrate the concept of the idea. If you get wrapped up in these examples I just pulled out of thin air, that is your fault.

The next room has quite a few melee mobs and you want to put a web in the doorway before combat is initiated. You could apply a focus metamagic that would increase cast time while also increasing the DC of your web. You could apply an extend metamagic that would increase the duration of your web while increasing the spell point cost of the web as well. Ultimately, if the mobs were extremely dangerous and you want them to be stuck in your web for its duration with any ability to save, you could apply a metamagic that would channel the spell instead of casting it. A channeled spell would be extremely powerful, requiring the caster to stand in one spot continuously channeling the spell, consuming spell points for the duration.

There is an archer up on a perch on the other side of the room. You want to shoot him with a Lightning Bolt, but you know he is likely to save. You apply the focus metamagic as described in the previous example, but there is a big skirmish already happening in the room, so you additionally apply a quicken metamagic negating the extended cast time of the focus metamagic but increasing the spell points used. You might also apply a power metamagic to increase the damage of the Lightning Bolt as well, costing even more spell points to ensure it has maximum effect. Finally, just in case it doesn't finish him off, you might apply a linger metamagic causing the Lightning Bolt to do damage over time as well, allowing you to get back into the fray. You might even apply the extend metamagic just to be sure the damage over time effect of linger gets the job done.

There is a powerful mob that needs to die as soon as possible at any cost. You can't wait for damage over time effects to finish him off, and you can't afford for him to save, so you channel the Lightning Bolt until you see him explode, costing a lot of spell points, but getting the job done. Perhaps there is quite a few mobs that need to die very fast, you could channel a Chain Lightning to do massive damage to a roomful of mobs while costing a great deal of spell points in the process. If you had melee friends with you, then you might opt to channel an electric loop instead, keeping them dazed while also dealing electrical damage for its duration.

As illustrated by the examples above, everything would work in a way we are all familiar with, but the functionality would be completely different. Playing a caster would come down to careful management of your spell points while also maximizing their effect within the bounds of that careful management. While spell points would be continually regenerated with magical training that could be further enhanced with enhancements, potions, and abilities, you couldn't continually cast full meta spells without quickly running out of spell points. There could be mechanisms that allowed a caster to occasionally refill their spell points, some sort of rest, like a shrine, but perhaps not limited to just shrines. However, these full replenishment mechanisms could be tightly controlled by the developers.

Everything could be done entirely within DDO's current game engine using mechanics that already exist, except perhaps channeling. Channeling could be implemented in the current engine in effect by simply having the character repeatedly cast the same spell with no cool down and significantly increased DC. Not that channeling would even have to be implemented, I just like the thought of a caster being able to be supremely effective albeit at a great cost. A bard channeling a dance ball in a room filled with mobs while the melee chop them up. Back to the point, all the pieces are there, there is spell point regeneration, there are metamagics in place, but the current implementation allows most players in most circumstances to just vomit full meta spells all over the dungeon without concern for spell points until you get into higher epic reapers where the developers balanced casters by making all the mobs save all the time.

The only real change needed would be to how metamagic is applied to spells. Obviously you can't toggle and untoggle a half dozen metas for each spell cast. I have several ideas as to how it could be implemented. My favorite is...

You press 1 to choose cast a lightning bolt on hotbar 1, but it doesn't fire until you press the mouse button. So to fire a lightning bolt with no metamagic you just press 1 and click the mouse. However, after pressing 1 a metamagic hotbar becomes your active hotbar, so you can click various metas to turn them on for that one spell or you could press their corresponding number on the keyboard. So if you wanted to cast a lightning bolt with more spell power, a higher DC, and a DoT effect you would click or press those metas and the click the mouse... 1 - 123 - click.

I would not at all be opposed to a significant caster nerf in heroic and low skull epic reaper content, where casters are so OP they are actually boring to play and I feel bad if I'm playing with friends because they don't get to do anything but watch me spam my win button, if the system was totally revamped to make casters effective in all content, and powerful in situations where it counts most when played by skilled players making good decisions.

[Jerevth]

Melee works fine at low levels.
I'm enjoying melee immensely while running through my PL (Past Lives) list. (barb)
It's more robust than casters, ignores a lot of damage that would kill a caster or ranged.

But you have to know how to build it and first life melee can still have mistakes.
There are plenty of build guides and several build threads. Strimtom has some great builds to start with, too.
A fresh from the womb new character will not be a colossus, though, when running with others who have the gear or PLs. (or the knowledge of the in-game mechanics)

Those come with time. I'd recommend melee or cleric before trying to run a sorcerer, wizard. SP management can be frustrating for a new player trying to learn. Melees can swing all day, and clerics have a pretty good foundation to survive a lack of points (AC, melee enhancements, self healing).

I started with a rogue mechanic... it was bipolar; I either loved playing or got immensely frustrated, depending on the quest.
YMMV.

But I don't recommend playing tabletop for several years to learn DDO.
-You may decide to play something else online.
-You may decide to stick with tabletop.
-You won't have the knowledge, gear, PLs after several years.
-DDO may not be here when you come back.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I snipped the THTH part off the end as I agree with OX that it has very little to do with this conversation. THTH is not something I expect many new players will ever survive regardless of build.

However (and I honestly never ever thought I would say this) everything that I have quoted above I think is spot on. I especially agree that the advantages to melee extend far beyond the kill count.

Since we have so much accord on this issue, I think we should just consider it closed! Seriously though, there is a degree of relativism to this topic. Consider for instance:

- In a group of veteran players, the number one determining factor in kill count will be speed.

- In a mixed group of veterans and beginners, speed and amalgamated character power will combine to produce the lopsided kill count numbers that are seen.

- In a group of beginning players, kill counts will be relatively equal largely determined by individual player skill in relation to previous experience with action MMO games.

I believe my first two statements here are irrefutable. If one were so inclined copious amounts of data could be compiled showing that they are true. Neither has anything to do with actual character build. The third statement is harder to quantify for how do we measure the skill level behind the curtain?

I'm sure all of you know someone, and maybe that someone is even you, who has always excelled at games. I have a cousin who is an ace at FPS. No matter what FPS he plays, he can pick it up and within hours is dominating, doesn't matter the game, doesn't matter the character. There will always be that factor. Another factor to consider is fear. Fear is a DPS equalizer. In DDO, this pushes to the fore most prominently in Hardcore, and granted this is a non-issue for veterans on Live, but for beginners, there is a degree of fear mitigating game choices. Draw too much "bad" agro and you die. What is bad agro? When you hit a mob with a fireball but don't kill it. Veterans might wipe the mob and rack up those kill numbers but a beginner might only take off half their hit points and suddenly find themselves swarmed by angry kobalds. That caster will then kite around madly running backward jumping around and doing all sorts of non-DPS-related things. A beginning melee will be more well-equipped to handle this situation because no mob is saving against their cleave or strikethrough and they have the defensive fortitude to absorb hits. Another factor in fear is not knowing what comes next. You've experienced this yourself on Hardcore when you're running a dungeon you haven't been in for two years. How fast are you moving? What percentage of DPS are you laying down versus what you do in VON3?

Let's look back at player skill. A skilled beginning player might quickly pick up on casting mechanics. They might throw down webs, for instance, and figure out how to mitigate agro. They will start to understand what spells to use versus which mob types. Neither the melee nor the caster has any particular advantage over each other at this stage. The melee has a higher floor than the caster because they are more forgiving, more survivable, and take less skill to perform as designed without access to gear/tomes/etc. Because of this, they will have a higher sustained DPS since they are more able to mitigate the fear factors above even if their burst AOE damage isn't as high as the caster. Who ends up leading kill count in this scenario is largely skill-based. Each archetype has different advantages and disadvantages and that is why we have class differentiation and choice.

[Oliphant]

Thing is, the ability to play a game where a non-monster race gets one shot smacked by monster races is cool and rare. It's actually an awesome role play experience to be a weak toon in a group of vet toons trying to stay alive and be useful. You only need to deal with this if you are in groups with vets on reaper. So have fun learning the game solo on whatever diff you can manage and have even more fun role playing like its a real adventure and not your typically fake video game godmode experience when you group up with vets.

[Tilomere]

https://i.postimg.cc/Fr07s3S8/Screen-Shot-2022-01-20-172444-0.jpg

Nerf warlocks!


paladin

/smile

[Bjond]

The biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character
I didn't have any problem as melee with my first character and the game hasn't changed that much in 3yrs, although that character actually started as warlock and had to rebuild midstream to melee due to lack of sp and low dps. IMHO, despite how good blasters are now, I would still recommend melee by far over any type of caster for a newbie. Ranged is easier still.

However, the issue is more about the popular difficulty settings chosen by most groups than one of role or play style.

If you start an LFM for a difficulty higher than you can solo, there might be a VERY long wait -- maybe even forever (no group at all). OTH, if you start an LFM for the highest setting you can manage to solo, you can start right away and there's a high likelihood people will join.

The problem with this is that once people join, you have to either crank the difficulty up (which might not be possible if the class mix isn't right) or blow through it all in one long roflstomp, which leaves newbies stuck chasing and looting rather than fighting.

[Weemadarthur]

https://i.postimg.cc/Fr07s3S8/Screen-Shot-2022-01-20-172444-0.jpg

Nerf warlocks!



/smile

Are you trying to claim that a 1st life inexperienced player thats just started playing the game is going to be hitting for any where near that?

If you genuinely believe that I have some beachfront property in Nevada to sell you.

[Tilomere]

Are you trying to claim that a 1st life inexperienced player thats just started playing the game is going to be hitting for any where near that?


Now that you mention it, that's just half damage, the cold half. The mobs didn't live through that to get hit by the bludgeoning half. You very well may be right that new players hit for about that half damage displayed.

But no, I'm claiming an experienced caster hits for around double that. It doesn't matter if it is a cleric/fvs with soundburst/color spray + divine wrath + bombardment, or a druid with color spray + Tsunami, or a warlock/arti/wiz/sorc with masshold/color spray + arcane tempest. Heroic spell power availability is too high, and needs to get cut in half on itemization at least, probably metas as well.

We could create an epic caster feat that all characters get at 20 that returns heroic spell power itemization back to normal, and cut 75/30 spell power off of maximize/empower we can return evenly in caster ED cores.

[slarden]

https://i.postimg.cc/Fr07s3S8/Screen-Shot-2022-01-20-172444-0.jpg

Nerf warlocks!


/smile
The first notable thing is that you aren't even on a warlock!

I promise you will get better results on a paladin if you try something other than a basic attack. Warlock base damage is less than 100 at level 30 with 2 epic feats if the enemy fails their save (before spellpower). This isn't an opinion or a screen shot with buffed numbers, it's a mathematical fact. You can certainly make bigger numbers for a screen shot with helplessness, helplessness damage buffs, temp spellpower buffs, procs, mrr debuffs, vulnerability and an endless list of things to make numbers look bigger. You can do that with other builds as well.

This is my warlock 15 second boss rotation before and after U51 and it certainly improved significantly due to U51 buffs - arcane pulse, greater ruin, niac's biting cold and either the shiradi or draconic proc(s). https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R719jBJFOoN_qv5fS-c82oBMB35IgElC-uXsgNSbiNA/edit?usp=sharing

It's significantly better than before but nowhere near melee dps before debuffs, vulnerability, etc. The draconic proc does significantly more damage than 9 seconds of casting eldritch blast. You can always inflate those numbers with debuffs but you can do that with all builds.

I don't know if the devs are happy with where casters are post-U51 or not. Single-target damage feels about right, but they may have over-buffed aoe by over-emphasizing procs which buffs aoe and casters didn't really need an aoe boost.

My main R10 character is still a melee (although warlock is very R10 capable as well). My main raiding character is still a melee. My main soloing character is still warlock on a dual box account that I use for power-leveling, gear farming, helping people flag or complete quests, etc. although I am strongly considering switching to wizard or sorc. My main character on my newer free to play account from last summer is a buffing bard that did several lifes with no purchases, no hand-me downs, no help or power-leveling all as a melee (paladin) because it worked the best. My other characters are mostly for filling roles in raids/parties:

- 17 fvs/ 3 paladin healer and off-tank that can fill both roles in a raid.
- 20 sorc built specifically for THTH as we often need that role filled to run the raid
- 20 ranger (formerly thrower) on the TR train - mostly for filling a ranged role when needed for raids like LOB and Project Nemesis
- 18 wizard / 2 rogue illusionist - mostly for when dc support and/or trapping is needed - can fill both roles well.
- 20 barbarian I am leveling up to try as a solo character at 30 with a companion buffing/max sustaining song bard. Based on the #s it seems really good, but I need more testing.

I agree with all the comments about the loss of meld hurting melees at level cap, esp lower rxp melees.

I don't agree with the premise that melees are bad for a new player, in fact based on my own experience with a new FTP account I think they are the best and specifically THF melees and most esp paladin. I would recommend paladin for every new player and if they are willing to throw money at the game I would go further and suggest bladeforged or aasimar + feydark illusionist - going charisma based on top of that. I didn't go bladeforged/aasimar or charisma-based because I was totally ftp, but that is an uber-powerful build for a new player although I think doing a basic heroic life first from 1-20 is the way to go before going bladeforged. Also bladeforged isn't as party friendly if someone is grouping with a healer, but it's really great for soloing.



But no, I'm claiming an experienced caster hits for around double that. It doesn't matter if it is a cleric/fvs with soundburst/color spray + divine wrath + bombardment, or a druid with color spray + Tsunami, or a warlock/arti/wiz/sorc with masshold/color spray + arcane tempest. Heroic spell power availability is too high, and needs to get cut in half on itemization at least, probably metas as well.

We could create an epic caster feat that all characters get at 20 that returns heroic spell power itemization back to normal, and cut 75/30 spell power off of maximize/empower we can return evenly in caster ED cores.

Your focus seems to be leveling and while your point isn't completely invalid - that is why we have 14 difficulties in the game because there is a HUGE difference in power between new players and experienced players with alot of grind power.

I continue to be confused by vets show elite screen shots or start R1 zerg groups while leveling because I solo R4 and it's not hard for me on any build with a few exceptions where some experimental builds didn't work out as intended. Above R4 I don't bother with while solo leveling because vengeance reaper mechanics are annoying and I despise dual box rescue missions when my character died way outside the circle.

All builds overperform when operated by a competent vet on elite and R1 while leveling.

As for the previously epic spells that are now heroic, I think they should just require a minimum level of 20 to use rather than scale down damage which hurts players at 30. I also don't find this as problematic as you do, but I would be fine if those spells were just auto-granted at 20 rather than available at lower levels.

[Marshal_Lannes]

I promise you will get better results on a paladin if you try something other than a basic attack.

His screenshot confused me as well and goes back to my premise that I think a lot of the comments in this thread are from people who don't lead kill counts. Playing on my Paladin the other day in Baba Yaga I triggered one of my cleaves and did 7K to 12K to all the shadows around me. Playing a first-life Shadar Kai chain swinger on hardcore I was hitting for 4K to all mobs around me. When I bring that character to Live and put in full twink gear and get them a Magmatic Reaver I would expect those numbers to double.

[Tyrande]

https://i.postimg.cc/Fr07s3S8/Screen-Shot-2022-01-20-172444-0.jpg

Nerf warlocks!



/smile

That screenshot showed that you used a 100+ lives twinked gear triple completionist using a twinked ML18 all slotted sentient item with a broken spell Tsunami that has no save.

Try not playing with Tilomere and roll a first life warlock on another account with no twink gear at the same level and quest difficulty and see if you get the same screenshot.

[Hafeal]

is run Melee, on Normal. This has many benefits:


1. You move slower and can sniff the flowers with less danger than a squishy caster


2. You begin to learn the game and nuance.


3. Gives you ample time to try a caster after your melee life.


4. You can safely solo as needed.


Comparing R-anything, multi-lifes, and serious meta game knowledge to new players is the mistake. ;)

[Weemadarthur]

That screenshot showed that you used a 100+ lives twinked gear triple completionist using a twinked ML18 all slotted sentient item with a broken spell Tsunami that has no save.

Try not playing with Tilomere and roll a first life warlock on another account with no twink gear at the same level and quest difficulty and see if you get the same screenshot.

Even then you will get a false representation of the facts.

The thread isn't about whether an experienced player can make a 1st life character that is uber and how much damage they can make. The thread is about 1st life inexperienced players. New players that have not played the game before. These players won't know how to milk every extra last point of damage out of a build, they won't know how to stack defenses to give good survivability, they won't know to specialize rather than generalize and they won't have any knowledge of how quests operate. They will be new.

For a new player most melee builds (specifically Barb and Palli) are the better options. They are far less likely to make game breaking mistakes with those builds, they are good straight out of the gate with minimal gear at every level range, they require very little gear or build knowledge to become viable and most importantly they are simple to play and learn. Once they have the basic experience gained over a life or 2 then sure other options may be better. For a 1st life player with no past lives, gear, build knowledge, or game experience though this will not be the case.

The problem with most ranged and caster builds is they take a little investment to start doing well. Take an alchemist, its superb for a new player at level 12. At level 1 though its literally the most horrible build to play. A 1st life inexperienced player isn't likely to even reach level 2 before giving up in frustration. A decent ranged build has similar problems. By early heroics they are ok and by mid heroics they are decent to very good. At level 1 though they are all without exception slow, weak and frustrating to play. Now take a palli or Barb, at level 1 it can take hits and do decent damage. Even a bad build will give the player enough time to learn how to play before it becomes a struggle. Its instantly playable even with a preset path choice (and we all know how bad the preset paths are).

If you really want to have the closest approximation of how a new player sees the game the preset paths are how to get an idea of that. Roll a preset wiz, a preset warlock, a preset ranger and then a preset barb. Take those into the Borderlands wilderness and see how each of those perform with no gear. We will still have knowledge on our side so it wont be a 100% accurate representation but it will give a more accurate representation than any other.

[Oliphant]

The worst thing a new player can do is bring Darth Vader with them into that cave on Dagobah.

[Oxarhamar]

is run Melee, on Normal. This has many benefits:


1. You move slower and can sniff the flowers with less danger than a squishy caster


2. You begin to learn the game and nuance.


3. Gives you ample time to try a caster after your melee life.


4. You can safely solo as needed.


Comparing R-anything, multi-lifes, and serious meta game knowledge to new players is the mistake. ;)

It's an MMO tye best way for new players is to find veterans who are welcoming to new players

Soloing is an option for those who choose to but it should not be the go to

[Marshal_Lannes]

For a new player most melee builds (specifically Barb and Palli) are the better options. They are far less likely to make game breaking mistakes with those builds, they are good straight out of the gate with minimal gear at every level range, they require very little gear or build knowledge to become viable and most importantly they are simple to play and learn.

Underlooked melee advantage for new players right here. If you're making a first-life Barbarian or Paladin it's intuitive and easy to make your first feat choices. You're going to take THF. It makes sense. Then you're going to take Power Attack and maybe toughness because again, it makes sense for a new player and directly impacts what you'll be doing. Try that with a ranged or caster. It is obscure at best on what feat to take for a ranged character. Yes, Point Blank Shot should be the choice but it isn't clear and if you don't have it your build is going to suffer. Compare that with the above melee, Precision might be a better choice for a melee but you'll be perfectly fine with Power Attack. And casters? Even less clear. New players using Maximize at L1-3 will quickly find they can cast 4 spells and then they're done. Drifting over the Enhancements - trees like FB and KotC are self-explanatory on what is great and you can immediately see the impact. Caster improvements are marginal 2% spell crit for example and far more dependant on gearing. Ranged? The lower tiers of DWS are awful and they likely won't have access to Horizon Walker. Artificer and Inquisitive do have strong trees, but again, are those even going to be available to new players?

[Tilomere]

Try not playing with Tilomere and roll a first life warlock on another account with no twink gear at the same level and quest difficulty and see if you get the same screenshot.

Ranged/caster trappers, casters, and tanks have the power to make it through hardcore, which represents that newer player experience of 0 past lives, 0 starting gear, new server, 0 tomes. This is what you are asking for, and many players doing that all cumulate to this:

https://i.postimg.cc/bqyPR7dF/Hardcore.jpg

Now you have the complete picture that it isn't just me, of both how this is happening and what the result of it happening are. My screenshot isn't even one of the more powerful casters, it's just average power you can see by comparing input and output in hardcore.


Underlooked melee advantage for new players right here. If you're making a first-life Barbarian or Paladin it's intuitive and easy to make your first feat choices.

And no, a new player isn't even going to know that he should make his new barbarian or paladin a zDPS tank, let alone how, and none of the build paths represent how the game as hardcore evidences has evolved. If 'melee' was a good choice, then fighters and monks would be making it through hardcore. They are certainly starting as melee, but just not making it through:

https://i.postimg.cc/Qsp7v7xK/Hardcore-all.jpg



Your focus seems to be leveling and while your point isn't completely invalid - that is why we have 14 difficulties in the game because there is a HUGE difference in power between new players and experienced players with alot of grind power.


And where among those 14 difficulties do you place a heroic caster that hits for 9k AoE non-crit (when you add in the bludgeoning half for druid, or as per any caster as outlined above) grouped with a new player melee? If only that new player was a caster or ranged, they could be placed on any difficulty.

Do we place them in R1? No, that's too easy, the caster will AoE 1 shot evreything. How about R7 with doom reapers, so the melee has something they can intimidate and tank and swing at that will survive the burst? Ooh, that'll be entertaining watching a newer melee player fight a doom.



I promise you will get better results on a paladin if you try something other than a basic attack.

Feel free to demonstrate.

[Oxarhamar]

Underlooked melee advantage for new players right here. If you're making a first-life Barbarian or Paladin it's intuitive and easy to make your first feat choices. You're going to take THF. It makes sense. Then you're going to take Power Attack and maybe toughness because again, it makes sense for a new player and directly impacts what you'll be doing. Try that with a ranged or caster. It is obscure at best on what feat to take for a ranged character. Yes, Point Blank Shot should be the choice but it isn't clear and if you don't have it your build is going to suffer. Compare that with the above melee, Precision might be a better choice for a melee but you'll be perfectly fine with Power Attack. And casters? Even less clear. New players using Maximize at L1-3 will quickly find they can cast 4 spells and then they're done. Drifting over the Enhancements - trees like FB and KotC are self-explanatory on what is great and you can immediately see the impact. Caster improvements are marginal 2% spell crit for example and far more dependant on gearing. Ranged? The lower tiers of DWS are awful and they likely won't have access to Horizon Walker. Artificer and Inquisitive do have strong trees, but again, are those even going to be available to new players?

Not necessarily a first time player may as well choose TWF of Sword and Board styles there is no feat they are going to take

Premium classes like Artifcer will be available to a new player who can make a class purchase to play what they like

[Coffey]

Not necessarily a first time player may as well choose TWF of Sword and Board styles there is no feat they are going to take

Premium classes like Artifcer will be available to a new player who can make a class purchase to play what they like

S&B would be the easiest. Just equip a sword and shield and away you go lol.

I think a Ranger is the closest thing to a preset path you can get for a new player. They may miss taking IC Slashing / IC Ranged and point blank shot but everything else is there automatically.

The active feats and Toggles (and Enhancement trees) for the bow are often overlooked though. I know i was happy to find them on my first character :D

[Coffey]

Underlooked melee advantage for new players right here. If you're making a first-life Barbarian or Paladin it's intuitive and easy to make your first feat choices. You're going to take THF. It makes sense.

I watched a twitch streamer new player playing a Barbarian build choose Poison Resistance at level 3. They said it sounded good to them.

In all fairness i like to believe they chose THF at level 1. Although i dont remember seeing the THF symbol above on the screen.

[Coffey]

The lower tiers of DWS are awful and they likely won't have access to Horizon Walker. Artificer and Inquisitive do have strong trees, but again, are those even going to be available to new players?

My first character was a Ranger and i put my low level AP into Arcane Archer fire imbue. Had great damage playing early on and with Many Shot going it cleared everything.

Always started with AA after that until level 12 and DWS powered away at that point.

[ChaosBuddha]

its not that great of an idea for old player to make melee neither. i use to switch between melee and range/caster now when I'm on my melee life I'm pretty much always 3 reaper lvl lower in power lvl than other builds. i can solo r8 on most of the quest on my caster but for melee is only r5 and melee is not doing any better in group and raids. i still like melee style tho so i give it a pity play once a while

[Weemadarthur]

Not necessarily a first time player may as well choose TWF of Sword and Board styles there is no feat they are going to take

Premium classes like Artifcer will be available to a new player who can make a class purchase to play what they like

You are ofc correct with the 1st statement but both 2wf and S&B are still (if barely) viable for a 1st life player. Both are still easy to play, build and gain a decent understanding of game mechanics with. Marshal is also correct though that feat selections and build options are much much easier to understand on a melee with far fewer chances to completely mess up a build.

Marshal is also quite correct that most new players won't shell out for things like inquis, HW or Arty until they are sure they are going to continue to play the game. Now from 1st hand experience most new players I meet that start as casters generally quit or reroll long before the caster actually gets any good. The fallout for ranged seems to be lower but even then I would say about 50% of those that I meet tend to get frustrated and leave/reroll before level 10. I have however met a lot of players that started on melee, got invested in the game and have then gone on to ranged and casters later (and quite a few of those are still playing).

The easy thing to forget when talking about builds that are viable or better is they are normally only a better option if you know exactly what you are doing. The fact is most new players I meet (and I go out of my way to meet them so I probably meet a lot more than most) are playing the preset classes. Now I will say 100% I bet if you take a 1st life preset S&B fighter it will still be an infinitely better experience than any of the level 1 preset casters. If you don't want to take my word for it please feel free to try it yourself.

[Oxarhamar]

You are ofc correct with the 1st statement but both 2wf and S&B are still (if barely) viable for a 1st life player. Both are still easy to play, build and gain a decent understanding of game mechanics with. Marshal is also correct though that feat selections and build options are much much easier to understand on a melee with far fewer chances to completely mess up a build.

Marshal is also quite correct that most new players won't shell out for things like inquis, HW or Arty until they are sure they are going to continue to play the game. Now from 1st hand experience most new players I meet that start as casters generally quit or reroll long before the caster actually gets any good. The fallout for ranged seems to be lower but even then I would say about 50% of those that I meet tend to get frustrated and leave/reroll before level 10. I have however met a lot of players that started on melee, got invested in the game and have then gone on to ranged and casters later (and quite a few of those are still playing).

The easy thing to forget when talking about builds that are viable or better is they are normally only a better option if you know exactly what you are doing. The fact is most new players I meet (and I go out of my way to meet them so I probably meet a lot more than most) are playing the preset classes. Now I will say 100% I bet if you take a 1st life preset S&B fighter it will still be an infinitely better experience than any of the level 1 preset casters. If you don't want to take my word for it please feel free to try it yourself.

I don't think so I know plenty of players who will shell out a few bucks to jump into a premium class like druid at the jump because they like druid class in other games or in PnP and want to try it right away ofc that will differ from player to player

While feat selection is a bit easier on a melee the choice of THF is not intuitive new players are not going to automatically gravitate to THF rather than choosing a fighting style

I don't disagree about the presets just about the predictions of what a new player will do that is entirely dependent on the player

[Coffey]

The easy thing to forget when talking about builds that are viable or better is they are normally only a better option if you know exactly what you are doing. The fact is most new players I meet (and I go out of my way to meet them so I probably meet a lot more than most) are playing the preset classes. Now I will say 100% I bet if you take a 1st life preset S&B fighter it will still be an infinitely better experience than any of the level 1 preset casters. If you don't want to take my word for it please feel free to try it yourself.

The presets are not optimized but they are better than what a new player might choose for feat selections themselves. The problem is that not all select the presets when starting out because they are intrigued to make their own character choices as they level up.

When faced with the list of Feats at level up some will make impetuous decisions because they are overwhelmed and they just want to advance. Some will seek out answers before making a decision while others successfully use their intuition. Their are a lot of useless feats to choose from that seem sound the first time over.

At any rate its not full proof that a new player will start out even close to optimized and that may lead to a bad starting experience with DDO.

[slarden]

And where among those 14 difficulties do you place a heroic caster that hits for 9k AoE non-crit (when you add in the bludgeoning half for druid, or as per any caster as outlined above) grouped with a new player melee? If only that new player was a caster or ranged, they could be placed on any difficulty.

Do we place them in R1? No, that's too easy, the caster will AoE 1 shot evreything. How about R7 with doom reapers, so the melee has something they can intimidate and tank and swing at that will survive the burst? Ooh, that'll be entertaining watching a newer melee player fight a doom.


New players grouping with experienced players is problematic regardless of class. The best way for a new player to learn the game is to solo on whatever difficulty they can complete (except for a few difficult to solo quests) or group with a like-minded person that won't zerg and ruin the experience.

I ran a full life as first-lfer paladin with full free-to-play limitations - running almost all quests on R1 solo. I found it much easier to level compared to a wizard or sorc with those constraints.

To the extent the former epic spells are causing balance issue in higher heroics they should consider gating those spells so they aren't in the spellbook until 20 (some feat auto-granted at 20).


Feel free to demonstrate. I already told you the attacks to lead with in a previous message. It's not complicated to figure out or play and really shouldn't require a demonstration. Take unyielding sovereignty for the plague reapers which get tougher starting at level 11 and arguably the most challenging low-level reaper at heroic levels.


Ranged/caster trappers, casters, and tanks have the power to make it through hardcore, which represents that newer player experience of 0 past lives, 0 starting gear, new server, 0 tomes. This is what you are asking for, and many players doing that all cumulate to this:

https://i.postimg.cc/bqyPR7dF/Hardcore.jpg



Hardcore is all about survivability and utility to a party.

Now ironically from your own chart the absolute least played class is a caster and 3 out of 5 of the least played classes are casters/ranged.

For the 2 lower played melees you have low-MRR monks which make perfect sense and fighters which have no self-healing. Fighters are one of the best builds for push raiding though. Sorcs are arguably the best caster class in the hands of an experienced player with high grind power.

Favored souls are popular on hardcore for a very simple reason - the bonus hp and self-healing. Wings at higher levels is also a great perk.

Bard is not shocking as the top melee build as it has been the best low-investment melee option since the revamp several years ago. Both warchanter and swashbuckler are solid for a first-lifer and with feydark illusionist you can throw in some great cc as well to compliment the ice. Caster bards are not terrible, but hybrids are vastly superior for a first-lifer.

And ironically despite all the claims about how ranged never face any danger it's interesting that ranger is one of the lowest-played classes on hardcore. A halfing ranger with a bit more emphasis on self-healing and survivability is pretty good on hardcore, but yeah spike damage is still an issue.

[TedSandyman]

I think BIGGEST mistake might be a bit of hyperbole.

I saw a fighter class take a cleric level at level 2 cause they wanted to heal. The trouble is, they had put no points into wisdom. I also saw a player that absolutely wanted to be a wizard, but then played the game wielding a long sword. Neither of these players stayed with the game very long.

I would agree that it could possibly the biggest mistake that is commonly suggested. So I wouldn't call it a common mistake for new players.

I would call it "The most common mistake that veteran players suggest to new players".

Also, I see a lot of "Well, they just need to pike or play solo till they are strong enough".

While that is probably true, most new players aren't going to want to pike or play solo for a year or more until they can play with everyone else. It isn't a good place for a game to be in, especially a social game, regardless of if it is true or not.

I don't know if there is a solution to new players at this point. I really thing SSG is trying to make it easier for them with additions like inquisitive and warlock. Those are pretty easy to get up and running while doing good damage while not being on the front line.

If anyone really cares about new players, then the number one step you can take is be kind and patient with them.

Take the time to make the game more enjoyable for them. Don't kill everything. Let others have some fun too. If you double the kill count of everyone else in your party, stop killing except for big fights that you know might be dangerous. Most of the time, however, egos are too fragile for such acts or xp/minute is the chief concern.

[Tilomere]

Bard is not shocking as the top melee build

Hardcore bards aren't melee. :)

The paladin and barbs you see aren't melee either, they are zDPS tanks. :)

[Oxarhamar]

Hardcore bards aren't melee. :)

The paladin and barbs you see aren't melee either, they are zDPS tanks. :)

The chart does make me want to play Alchemist next time just because it's least popular I don't even like Alchemist but I can make it work as a healer so ...

[Oxarhamar]

I think BIGGEST mistake might be a bit of hyperbole.

I saw a fighter class take a cleric level at level 2 cause they wanted to heal. The trouble is, they had put no points into wisdom. I also saw a player that absolutely wanted to be a wizard, but then played the game wielding a long sword. Neither of these players stayed with the game very long.

I would agree that it could possibly the biggest mistake that is commonly suggested. So I wouldn't call it a common mistake for new players.

I would call it "The most common mistake that veteran players suggest to new players".

Also, I see a lot of "Well, they just need to pike or play solo till they are strong enough".

While that is probably true, most new players aren't going to want to pike or play solo for a year or more until they can play with everyone else. It isn't a good place for a game to be in, especially a social game, regardless of if it is true or not.

I don't know if there is a solution to new players at this point. I really thing SSG is trying to make it easier for them with additions like inquisitive and warlock. Those are pretty easy to get up and running while doing good damage while not being on the front line.

If anyone really cares about new players, then the number one step you can take is be kind and patient with them.

Take the time to make the game more enjoyable for them. Don't kill everything. Let others have some fun too. If you double the kill count of everyone else in your party, stop killing except for big fights that you know might be dangerous. Most of the time, however, egos are too fragile for such acts or xp/minute is the chief concern.

Yep it's been repeated here that soloing is best for new players but that's not true best is to find welcoming players there are some great ones out there willing to handhold when needed but also step back let them get a few kills and guide to quests all that

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

I disagree with the OP - melee in DDO are the strongest; presently - right now - as of U51-52 - make a fighter or paladin, they are very very strong.

[Dark_Lord_Mary]

Another problem with the logic of the OP - the thread is labeled, the biggest mistake a new player can do is to roll a melee character - then the evidence presented is hardcore league data.

A perma-death event is not in any way good data to use for a new player joining us here to play DDO on a live server.
the HCL event requires a very different approach to building, gearing, and playing. again, a new player would do very well
on a melee- fighters are extremely strong all throughout the game from lvl 1 to 30. Paladins too - with no gear just a build - could
be 2h, 2wf, or swf - doesnt matter.

[ChaosBuddha]

yep

[KoobTheProud]

I disagree with the premise of the OP.

The strongest thing a brand new player can do is to roll a THF Barbarian or THF Wizard at this point. These are the best choices for mediocre-gear DPS and self-healing and the builds most likely to scale well as they level.

The biggest mistake that player can do is to join r1+ groups, a choice that will result in them seeing very little of how DDO works as they learn the game. They may well get carried to 20 in the process but then they will be making the same choices in the 2nd life and who plays a game to get carried anyway?

Secondary mistakes that a lot of players seem to do are multi-classing during their first life, taking ineffective feats early on and not taking enough CON in the build as they spread their stats out. All of these will result in the character becoming weaker against the environment as they level and make things tougher in the process.

[Caver]

I often wonder why people play and I don't mean that as an insult I really mean why do you play. For me it's certainly not leading the kill count or being fastest to TR or running on R10 it's helping a party complete a quest by fulfilling my role whatever that is. I almost exclusively play melee because let's face it I suck at most other things lol. I'm terrible at tab targeting, can't stand keeping track of a million bars and can't heal to save your life. I like to tank, I like melee dps and I don't mind trapping even if everybody runs of and leaves me. In my opinion a melee wizard (usually a pale master eldritch knight dwarf with or without a couple of levels of rogue ) is the best beginning character for a new player because you can pretty much do it all and all the game mechanics even if your not great at any. Also it gives you a chance to see what playstyle you like.

[Orangine]

The biggest mistake that player can do is to join r1+ groups
Which are 99% of the groups in the LFM. That's the point.

[Orangine]

I often wonder why people play and I don't mean that as an insult I really mean why do you play. For me it's certainly not leading the kill count or being fastest to TR or running on R10 it's helping a party complete a quest by fulfilling my role whatever that is. I almost exclusively play melee because let's face it I suck at most other things lol. I'm terrible at tab targeting, can't stand keeping track of a million bars and can't heal to save your life. I like to tank, I like melee dps and I don't mind trapping even if everybody runs of and leaves me. In my opinion a melee wizard (usually a pale master eldritch knight dwarf with or without a couple of levels of rogue ) is the best beginning character for a new player because you can pretty much do it all and all the game mechanics even if your not great at any. Also it gives you a chance to see what playstyle you like.



Not everyone plays for the same reason. But it turned off my friend massively when he realized his melee sucked and always will suck compared to any caster. Unless of course he racks 75 reapers points and at least 20 past lives and 24 epic past lives. He doesn't play anymore. Joining R1 groups and never being able to land a hit before everything fall down to a single fireball was a turn off because he didn't feel strong or useful. Melee is a trap for new players because they don't have the knowledge to understand that it is absolutely normal to suck as melee and the only reason to roll a melee in DDO is for flavor or tanking.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Only way you’re gonna get the kills as a barb is to use your speed to your advantage. I see plenty of barb zergers running R1s running ahead of everyone and killing.

As far as I can remember it’s always been that way with melee.

[Weemadarthur]

Which are 99% of the groups in the LFM. That's the point.

But if that's your point it has nothing to do with melee at all and everything to do with the gulf between new and veteran players. A new player playing on a caster will be just as far behind (tbh is actually likely to be even further behind) than a melee in R1+ content. A new player likely won't have an optimized build that allows them to nuke whole rooms at once, they won't be well geared, they won't have quest knowledge and they won't more often than not have the player skill of a vet. As has been said many times before in many threads on this subject from the perspective of an actual new player casters are the classes that actually suck. Melee like Barb and Palli are the easiest classes to pick up and play, to learn the game with, to get gear with and to level through those 1st few levels that for quite a large portion of new players can still be a struggle on normal.

Take a look at this video to get an idea of how an actual new player sees the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amz86lxRwlg&t=172s

At around 13:24 he actually says point blank about how the Barb is so much better than the wizard he originally started playing as.

[Mofus]

What you're talking about is kill count and that is not the same thing as being a good build for new players. A new player, even if they are a sorcerer or FVS, isn't going to have the same success you are describing because they don't have the gear/tomes/past lives that allow a caster to nuke their way through dungeons. On hardcore, FVS is the most popular class but the next two would probably be paladin and some version of barbarian. Paladin and barbarians offer many advantages beyond kill count to new players. In terms of kill count, yes casters dominate up to R4 but once you get into 6 through 10 mobs start making their saving throws and melee dramatically close the gap. Melee also has a major advantage in most raids.

+1, Well said. I play Pally on HC with a splash of Rogue, and have had nice success with them. I prefer to play melee even on my main server. My main toon is a 2 Rogue 18 Fighter 10+Epic. I don't have Reaper wings, but am slowly working towards them. Are caster more powerful, probably so, but you can still do well with a melee toon.

[Orangine]

but you can still do well with a melee toon.

What do you mean exactly by "do well"?
Considering your average caster with an average amount of PLs can comfortably solo R6+ content, I would say that "do well" would be at the very least soloing R6.
Can you comfortably solo R6 content with your melee? Why not?

Well, let me help you. First your melee has to take damage in order to output damage so you tend to take a lot more damage than somebody who DPS from a distance. Unlike casters, you don't have much variety when it comes to CC and your DCs are most likely garbage and don't work in R6+. Your heals are too weak to self-sustain all of that input damage and you have no way to prevent mobs from doing so. You do more damage than casters over a very long period of time, which rarely happens (Maybe 1-2 raids). Casters have better bursts than you therefore they can take down most bosses and mobs much faster without getting hit a single time.

[Weemadarthur]

What do you mean exactly by "do well"?
Considering your average caster with an average amount of PLs can comfortably solo R6+ content, I would say that "do well" would be at the very least soloing R6.
Can you comfortably solo R6 content with your melee? Why not?

Well, let me help you. First your melee has to take damage in order to output damage so you tend to take a lot more damage than somebody who DPS from a distance. Unlike casters, you don't have much variety when it comes to CC and your DCs are most likely garbage and don't work in R6+. Your heals are too weak to self-sustain all of that input damage and you have no way to prevent mobs from doing so. You do more damage than casters over a very long period of time, which rarely happens (Maybe 1-2 raids). Casters have better bursts than you therefore they can take down most bosses and mobs much faster without getting hit a single time.

And this highlights the whole problem with these threads. You start a thread about one thing then immediately move the goal posts and each time you lose traction on your side of the argument you move the goal posts again. The thread is "the biggest mistake a NEW PLAYER can do is roll a melee character". Excuse the language but seriously *** has R6 got to do with new players?

If you are arguing that melee can't solo high reaper then although I would say you are wrong (as they can and do) I would at least see your point. The issue there though is high reaper isn't supposed to be balanced or soloable. At elite and R1 (where the game is supposed to be balanced) they are fine. A good melee will do as well as a good caster. For new players (like the thread was allegedly about) melee is by far the best option for most players. Casters for new players tend to be a really really bad choice.

So as per the thread title I would say the worst thing a new player could do is take advice from someone like yourself who has forgotten what being new to the game means, what issues actually face new players and instead of being objective and/or helpful actually gives out really, really bad advice based on end game high reaper play.

[slarden]

But if that's your point it has nothing to do with melee at all and everything to do with the gulf between new and veteran players. A new player playing on a caster will be just as far behind (tbh is actually likely to be even further behind) than a melee in R1+ content. A new player likely won't have an optimized build that allows them to nuke whole rooms at once, they won't be well geared, they won't have quest knowledge and they won't more often than not have the player skill of a vet. As has been said many times before in many threads on this subject from the perspective of an actual new player casters are the classes that actually suck. Melee like Barb and Palli are the easiest classes to pick up and play, to learn the game with, to get gear with and to level through those 1st few levels that for quite a large portion of new players can still be a struggle on normal.

Take a look at this video to get an idea of how an actual new player sees the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amz86lxRwlg&t=172s

At around 13:24 he actually says point blank about how the Barb is so much better than the wizard he originally started playing as.
This is a necro thread being revived 6 months later by the same few people that bump every melee thread created in the last year constantly to keep the topic alive. I have no issues with that actually, but that's what this thread is at this point.

This was absolutely my experience when rolling up free-to-play characters without passing any gear, etc. to myself. I started with sorc and then wizard and realized real quick I would have to go hybrid, but decided to abandon both quickly. Then I rolled up a paladin and it was not only solid at low heroic levels is got stronger relatively once I hit 12 with the awesomeness in tier 5 kotc.

Looking at hardcore right now (haven't checked for this previously) I see the following @ 20 or above:

- 1 Alchemist
- 1 Barbarian
- 1 Bard
- 1 Druid
- 1 Favored Soul (would have expected more but it's a p2p class first life)
- 2 Paladin
- 1 Warlock
- 1 Wizard (with 5 fighter so presumably a hybrid build)

It's reasonably balanced. This isn't the type of sorc/ranger-fest we've been led to believe, even vets aren't predominantly choosing sorc or ranger on a first-lifer, although to be fair I am heavily leaning towards ranger this year for the simple reason I didn't get to try them out much since the bow changes.

I do think melee defenses need to be looked at for epic/legendary levels as the removal of meld, dire charge and situationally the easy twist of energy sheath has altered the defensive math for melees for the worse.

for heroics, even as a vet I prefer to play my casters as hybrids that lean more heavily to casting. I've found at least for soloing R4 heroics quests like Invaders and many more are just no fun as a straight spellcaster even if it can be completed with good play.

To the devs credit, the state of the game has probably never been more balanced among playstyles for a new free-to-play player with the recent changes to free-to-play classes and races. Specifically I would recommend the following for each playstyle for a new free-to-play player

Melee: Dragonborn Paladin
Ranged: Halfling Ranger
Caster: Tiefling Warlock

From a heroic leveling perspective I think paladin is the absolute strongest. At cap I think halfling ranger is the strongest and it's probably the best build to be a strong contributor in R10s. All 3 are solid for elite and low skulls.

The paladin will definitely feel the need for more defenses at level cap moving up difficulties. All 3 will experience a higher amount of deaths in reaper mode at cap due to the reality of being a first-lifer and the reaper learning curve. The best balancing suggestion I've heard for this problem is the concept Sev shared a few times about a system that allowed players with less reaper points to benefit from players with higher reaper points. This would do much more to alleviate balance issues than anything else as it means a big boost in hp for players without many reaper points.



Considering your average caster with an average amount of PLs can comfortably solo R6+ content, I would say that "do well" would be at the very least soloing R6.
Can you comfortably solo R6 content with your melee? Why not? I don't agree with this statement. Any accomplished character should be able to solo R4 on any build. Once you move above R4 the self-healing penalty becomes harder to overcome and vengeance reaper mishaps are one of the biggest challenges. Despair reapers make most forms of cc less effective so that is also a challenge. Horrid wilting and Disintegrate can one-shot any build on a failed save and horrid wiling will kill many when making a save on R6 so personally between the vengeance reaper mishaps and spike damage I wouldn't bother without dual boxes for rescue missions.

That's not to say it's not done and can't be done, I've done it myself. I just don't think this is typically done "comfortably" by "average" casters as you claim. I think people might try it on an easier quest just to say they did it, but it's not being done by a high # of people on a regular basis.

Once you get above R4 you really start to build your character specifically for soloing reaper such as taking epic fortitude save which is almost worthless in groups or soloing R4, but once you've solo'd enough above R4 you recognize rolling a 1 on disintegrate or horrid wilting as one of your biggest causes of death and it doesn't seem like such a foolish feat selection.

I've never bothered soloing above R4 on a ranged character so don't know about that. As far as melee I've only solo'd R6+ on a bard and 2 paladin builds and all 3 were successful. The bard was a hybrid that leaned melee. The paladins were full-on melee - bladeforged kotc paladin which has racial reconstruct to bypass the self-healing penalities and a dwarf 18 paladin 2 fighter kotc sword and board that was tanky with lower dps (but ironically still higher than my caster single-target dps at the time) and higher defenses and eventually morphed into my current R10 tank in sacred defender.

The only reason I can see to solo above R4 is challenge, because at that point as you point out there are no shortage of R10 groups and you will earn much more rxp/min compared to soloing mid skulls. I've seen so many people die outside of vengeance reaper circles - not sure if it is a lag thing, but in our R10s this not an uncommon problem at all. The one-shot spike damage impacts all playstyles.

There is one ability that helps casters solo above R4 more than any other and that is LGS Salt. If they added Salt to some melee weapons it would help melees solo and help in groups as well. I am sure you've seen some melee gold dagger builds perform well for the same reason.