Nerf and bug fix Dire Charge

[Tilomere]

It is very simple. Melee should not have 4x the dps of a dps caster while also having the AoE CC utility of a dps caster.

Not only is it very simple, the ability itself is bugged, and the DC is too high by 10, causing it to succeed 50% more of the time than intended, which is throwing epic feat selection and the power between melees (such as monks) and every other source of dps in the game out of whack. As stated by Steelstar:



Mass Frog (and Epic Destiny Feats that are also Spells with DCs in general) is hampered by how code handles Class feats. Doesn't fall under the banner of "easy", sadly, and our previous attempts at fixing it ultimately didn't work well enough to make it to live. It's something we'd like to fix, but it's larger than the average bugfix; we need to re-write parts of spellcasting code to fix it.


If this is something you would like to fix, just leave the class level 29-30 part, and add a -9 modifier at the end and make it close enough.

This is causing nerfs to be directed at melee classes such as monks, which is ruining heroic class balance, which was already dominated by warlocks. The problem is high level melee, and as such, bug fixes and nerfs should be directed where they belong.

It will also fix all the melee complaints about a lack of CC against undead and other targets if it is converted to a non-helpless 3 second knockdown. Reaper mode is supposed to be about teamwork, not someone using bugged dire charge to solo R7 to replace CC classes with a higher dps melee class, countering the reaper mob saves increase by the bug, and using bugged self-healing that also isn't supposed to bypass the reaper penalty.


https://youtu.be/5qgVO7mI8J4

[simo0208]

One ability, not available until level 29 and which has massive number of limiting factors (low burst radius, many mobs immune in that content) is neither necessary nor appropriate to "fix" or "nerf." Just because dire charge outperforms your perfect sound burst build does not mean it should be nerfed.

Also, there was zero mention that I can find that showed that monk dps was nerfed because of dire charge. Further, heroic monk dps vs warlocks has nothing to do with dire charge as the feat is not available until level 29.

So yeah, problem solved. Find better arguments.

[slarden]

What new nerfs are you talking about. Dire charge is fine.

[Kaboom2112]

While I agree with you that DPS casters could use some love, this is not the right way to do it.

[PsychoBlonde]

Nah.

And melee don't have "4x the DPS of a DPS caster". A proper DPS caster hits numerous targets simultaneously. They clear masses of mobs with vast efficiency. Single high-hp mobs are their bane. (Of course, on sufficiently high Reaper, ALL mobs are high-HP, so it gets wonky.) For melee, the equation is usually reversed. They can burn down a single mob with unbelievable speed, but a large pack is too dangerous. They need heals and crowd control.

There are melee abilities that do pretty much what Dire Charge DOES on several trees. The stun doesn't last nearly as long as the cooldown. It gives you a few seconds breathing room, but by itself it is merely nice to have.

[Chai]

One ability, not available until level 29 and which has massive number of limiting factors (low burst radius, many mobs immune in that content) is neither necessary nor appropriate to "fix" or "nerf." Just because dire charge outperforms your perfect sound burst build does not mean it should be nerfed.

The fact thats its a clear cut best choice means its OP. A symptom of that is it outperforms fort save CC because they have to balance high end fort saves on dire charge usage.


Also, there was zero mention that I can find that showed that monk dps was nerfed because of dire charge. Further, heroic monk dps vs warlocks has nothing to do with dire charge as the feat is not available until level 29.

So yeah, problem solved. Find better arguments.

The issue is monk was nerfed due to their high end capabilities, and in the nerf threads, people ONLY want to talk about high reaper and endgame balance, which includes ED stuff and epic feats anyone can have, which is a smoke and mirrors argument. The nerf hurt monks in heroics due to what you just stated - some of the stuff that made them OP in legendary reaper quests didnt come from the class itself and in the case of dire charge is level 29-30 only.

The "better argument" for a nerf for monks in heroics needed to come from examples of how they were OP in heroics. I have yet to see that argument posted, yet they still took that nerf on the chin due to the filibustering of the 12 people at endgame complaining about OP DPS in endgame only, in part due to a weapon that is also endgame only.

[Qhualor]

Too busy riding the reincarnation train to really check this out for myself, but when I see Dire Charge as a must feat for every melee class in just about every build discussion thread, it does make me think it could be too OP.

Mental note. Check out Dire Charge next time Lamannia is open.

[Jandric]

It is an interesting, if extraordinarily narrow argument. Melee toons are OP compared to casters because of burst radius cc, the ability to out damage casters when dealing with trash mobs, and a method of healing not nerfed by Reaper? Have you run with a Warlock? Because this sounds much more like the WAI Warlock than melee toons. I certainly don't see an overabundance of Barbs and Fighters in reapers. If I had to pick out the predominant archetypes, I'd say it's mostly Warlocks followed by Rage Archers.

Do you remember when reaper mode was still new? People didn't want to accept melee toons unless they already had a cc caster in the group. It was much easier to fill with Warlocks and ranged builds that weren't exposed to the punishment that melees take.

[J-mann]

It is an interesting, if extraordinarily narrow argument. Melee toons are OP compared to casters because of burst radius cc, the ability to out damage casters when dealing with trash mobs, and a method of healing not nerfed by Reaper? Have you run with a Warlock? Because this sounds much more like the WAI Warlock than melee toons. I certainly don't see an overabundance of Barbs and Fighters in reapers. If I had to pick out the predominant archetypes, I'd say it's mostly Warlocks followed by Rage Archers.

Do you remember when reaper mode was still new? People didn't want to accept melee toons unless they already had a cc caster in the group. It was much easier to fill with Warlocks and ranged builds that weren't exposed to the punishment that melees take.

I think you miss read his post. He was saying that melee are much weaker at trash clearing than casters.

[J-mann]

Oh and tilo fort saves are balanced around necro dc casters because instakills are so powerful they are the balancing lever. Not dire charge. Try again on nerfing melees.

[Jandric]

I think you miss read his post. He was saying that melee are much weaker at trash clearing than casters.


The OP?

[Renvar]

Of course Dire Charge is the only valid level 29 ED feat option for melees. It is the ONLY CC feat (aoe or otherwise) available to melees in epic or ED feats. Same as Overwhelming Crit is the only Melee DPS epic feat in epic levels that are not tied directly to rogue or monk. Hence it is BiS for Level 21. But that doesn't mean it is OP. Same with Perfect X weapon fighting. Those are BiS for epic destiny feats for melees because there's really very few other compelling options. (but at least there, there are some other options, like First Blood and Holy Strikes and such). It would be great if they made one or more Epic feats for CC (and/or more ED feats) that attacked different saves (will, for example) and were effective against a different type of mobs. Maybe with some different requirements to make them more build specific or appropriate.

Dire Charge itself is not over powered. The DC is strong, but not automatic unless you make a sizable investment in gear, enhancements, feats, and PL's. The cool down and duration are not easy button. The radius is not exceptionally large. It takes skill and timing to be effective, beyond the build investment in DC.

This player is also one of the best in the game. The number of players who can replicate that build and successfully complete that quest solo on r7 probably number fewer than 10 per server. You saw video of a single strong completion. How many runs were done where the player was figuring out the strategy and perfecting the execution and refining the gear set and the attack rotations? You don't see all those failures and learning and all that effort which led to success I've found that Dire Charge can be buggy sometimes and fail to proc properly and just go on cool down without actually doing anything. In R7 solo on a melee, your margin of error is razor thin. It doesn't take much for a strong run to turn into a disaster.

Videos like this should encourage others to invest the time and effort in attempting similar feats, seeing what is possible.

EDIT: I would be fine with dire charge being a "knockdown" effect instead of a "stun" effect for the benefit it offers against a wider variety of mobs. That was mentioned in the OP. I'm not sure about a 3 second duration. That seems too low. Other CC are on a 6 second timer, or longer. To me, that would be the minimum acceptable, especially given a 12 second cool down. I don't think perma-CC should be possible. There should be a gap. But 3 seconds is too low. Especially for a level 29 ED feat that requires 3 capped destinies to access.

[simo0208]

Too busy riding the reincarnation train to really check this out for myself, but when I see Dire Charge as a must feat for every melee class in just about every build discussion thread, it does make me think it could be too OP.

Mental note. Check out Dire Charge next time Lamannia is open.

Or perhaps there is virtually no other competent alternative... there are so few epic feats at 29 that help melee at all that can't be replicated through either a buff (like haste) or simply having appropriate gear (ie, silver, byshek, etc). Further, many of the feats don't even work properly, and neither does dire charge (as the DC is higher than what the tooltip says it should be). It's just that dire charge is one of the few that still actually works at all that it gets chosen. I like it for soloing and for dropping that little bit of CC in reaper when either mobs break or they roll high on saves. Other than that, it's hardly OP.

But Tilomere has said that Sane Asylum is the high skull reaper that his server plays on, so perhaps it outperforms lots of stuff there. On G-land, it's a nice to have but not a must have.

[Amundir]

I thought we were complaining that ranged characters out perform melees in reaper, and melee's needed love.
Now we're complaining that melees with Dire Charge are super performant and casters need love?

Edit: "we" being people on the board. Not me.

[simo0208]

The fact thats its a clear cut best choice means its OP. A symptom of that is it outperforms fort save CC because they have to balance high end fort saves on dire charge usage.



The issue is monk was nerfed due to their high end capabilities, and in the nerf threads, people ONLY want to talk about high reaper and endgame balance, which includes ED stuff and epic feats anyone can have, which is a smoke and mirrors argument. The nerf hurt monks in heroics due to what you just stated - some of the stuff that made them OP in legendary reaper quests didnt come from the class itself and in the case of dire charge is level 29-30 only.

The "better argument" for a nerf for monks in heroics needed to come from examples of how they were OP in heroics. I have yet to see that argument posted, yet they still took that nerf on the chin due to the filibustering of the 12 people at endgame complaining about OP DPS in endgame only, in part due to a weapon that is also endgame only.

So you solve that by being one of the few people filibustering that endgame dire charge is OP and that isn’t EXACTLY THE SAME THING? Let’s nerf an epic issue and hope thqt helps heroics.

The fallacy of “your argument is invalid but when I make the same argument it is valid” is strong here.

I’m guessing people arguing for Dire Charge to be nerfed don’t even play mid to high skull end game and just see something that they can’t do and instead of getting better they insist that everyone must be terrible like them.

[simo0208]

I thought we were complaining that ranged characters out perform melees in reaper, and melee's needed love.
Now we're complaining that melees with Dire Charge are super performant and casters need love?

Edit: "we" being people on the board. Not me.


Lol. I see what you did there. :)

I think the issue is that they (meaning the people on the board, not me) will complain about all builds which outperform their “perfect” build and demand that any build that does so must be cheating. The problem is that their builds are garbage, so everything outperforma them, whether it is melee, ranged, tanks, casters, or hirelings for that matter.

[Renvar]

I thought we were complaining that ranged characters out perform melees in reaper, and melee's needed love.
Now we're complaining that melees with Dire Charge are super performant and casters need love?

Edit: "we" being people on the board. Not me.

Any video of someone soloing an end game quest on R7+ will result in cries for the nerf bat. No matter what build they used. Ranged, Caster, Melee, whatever. There are some people who don't think R7+ should be soloable.

Even if the quest soloed is one of the easiest end game quests in the game. Grim and Barrett is the Spies in the House of At-Cap Reaper Dailies. There is a reason it is always the quest used when someone wants to show how GG Easy the game is on R10.

[J-mann]

The OP?

Nah the person you had quoted. You must have quoted the wrong person.

[Odysseus2011]

There really isn't a good way to make DPS casters viable at endgame reaper. If you increase their spellpower so that it can keep up in r10 then that build will be grossly overpowered in nonreaper. Fact of the matter is that the damage reductions implemented with reaper killed the DPS caster as a viable endgame build; dire charge had no part in its demise.

[simo0208]

There really isn't a good way to make DPS casters viable at endgame reaper. If you increase their spellpower so that it can keep up in r10 then that build will be grossly overpowered in nonreaper. Fact of the matter is that the damage reductions implemented with reaper killed the DPS caster as a viable endgame build; dire charge had no part in its demise.

There probably is but it’d require a rework of the reaper tree to include massive spellpower gains while in reaper.

[Qhualor]

Or perhaps there is virtually no other competent alternative... there are so few epic feats at 29 that help melee at all that can't be replicated through either a buff (like haste) or simply having appropriate gear (ie, silver, byshek, etc). Further, many of the feats don't even work properly, and neither does dire charge (as the DC is higher than what the tooltip says it should be). It's just that dire charge is one of the few that still actually works at all that it gets chosen. I like it for soloing and for dropping that little bit of CC in reaper when either mobs break or they roll high on saves. Other than that, it's hardly OP.

But Tilomere has said that Sane Asylum is the high skull reaper that his server plays on, so perhaps it outperforms lots of stuff there. On G-land, it's a nice to have but not a must have.

While I might agree there are limiting options for a melee, I find it very hard to believe its why its very often suggested in most build discussion threads to choose Dire Charge regardless of melee class. I think rogue is the only one I haven't seen suggested, but very shocked to see suggested for likes of a melee ranger. There was even a thread not long ago expressing my surprise. If no other viable option is the actual reason than it would have been said in those threads and none did until this one.

[xveganrox]

If it’s so OP, why would you be complaining that it’s OP for melee? Nothing stopping your CC caster from taking it, and if they’re built well they’ll have a higher Dire Charge DC than most melees. If it was really OP compared to CC casting I’m sure all the casters would be taking it at 29, not just warlocks.

[Arkat]

It is very simple. Melee should not have 4x the dps of a dps caster while also having the AoE CC utility of a dps caster.

Not only is it very simple, the ability itself is bugged, and the DC is too high by 10, causing it to succeed 50% more of the time than intended, which is throwing epic feat selection and the power between melees (such as monks) and every other source of dps in the game out of whack. As stated by Steelstar:



If this is something you would like to fix, just leave the class level 29-30 part, and add a -9 modifier at the end and make it close enough.

This is causing nerfs to be directed at melee classes such as monks, which is ruining heroic class balance, which was already dominated by warlocks. The problem is high level melee, and as such, bug fixes and nerfs should be directed where they belong.

It will also fix all the melee complaints about a lack of CC against undead and other targets if it is converted to a non-helpless 3 second knockdown. Reaper mode is supposed to be about teamwork, not someone using bugged dire charge to solo R7 to replace CC classes with a higher dps melee class, countering the reaper mob saves increase by the bug, and using bugged self-healing that also isn't supposed to bypass the reaper penalty.


https://youtu.be/5qgVO7mI8J4

So?

Someone you don't know solos content you probably don't run on a server where you probably don't play.

That affects you negatively how?

If it doesn't, why do you care?

Seriously...WHY DO YOU CARE??

Let Symb play the way he wants to play and you can play the way you want to play.

[GramercyRiff]

R7 get wrecked.

I want my Barbarian to be this good, but I bet it has a lot do with the player playing that Barbarian.

Also Dire Charge is a great and yes powerful level 29 feat. Not only don't nerf, but make more level 29 feats this good.

[LT218]

Wait, I'm confused.

I thought it was Warlocks that were OP'd and could solo everything while poor melee were extinct, marginalized, flavor-build dinosaurs? This build isn't a Warlock?!?

Oh wait, that's right. It was thrower builds that were game-breakingly overpowered, dirty kill-stealers. What's that? This build isn't a warlock or a thrower you say?

Ok then. It must be a DC-based instakiller then because I heard those were overpowered, too. No? It's not a DC caster?

Well then, it's obviously a handwraps monk if it's that strong. I mean monks are so boss that they leave dinosaur sized footprints everywhere they walk and people 100 years from now will whisper of the legends, right?

It's not a monk?!? So you're saying a non-monk, non-caster melee toon is steamrolling mid to high skull reaper missions solo at level? Well, that's impossible. There is page after page of founders, multi-year veterans and DDO pros telling us that it is 100%, anecdotally impossible for a non-pure tank melee build to do top tier DPS and survive in high skull reaper. Clearly it can't be done and, as such, that video is faked.

Jeez, next thing you know, bards are going to be overpowered.

[Mindos]

Jeez, next thing you know, bards are going to be overpowered.

The first rule of Bard club...

[Odysseus2011]

Someone you don't know solos content you probably don't run on a server where you probably don't play.

This was done on Lamannia.

[Odysseus2011]

Good melee player solos easy quest on moderate difficulty. NERF HIM!!!!!!!

[Chai]

So you solve that by being one of the few people filibustering that endgame dire charge is OP and that isn’t EXACTLY THE SAME THING? Let’s nerf an epic issue and hope thqt helps heroics.

Never said that at all actually. Your attacking a position that doesnt exist.


The fallacy of “your argument is invalid but when I make the same argument it is valid” is strong here.

Not a fallacy this time. The argument of nerfing monks 1-30 because of being OP 29-30 is indeed invalid, rebutted, and rebuked. This logic is countered by precisely and exactly zero belief systems.


I’m guessing people arguing for Dire Charge to be nerfed don’t even play mid to high skull end game and just see something that they can’t do and instead of getting better they insist that everyone must be terrible like them.

Its not like mid-high skull endgame is hard when the entire trash killing meta is leaning on CCs heavily, and the same CC ability very heavily - while beating down bags of HP. Its like you all fell asleep and woke up in 2009 epics. The strawman argument of "must be bad players" doesnt apply here, because even the good players gravitate to a two-button-push-cheese-meta if and when it gets them what they want more quickly. Going from 12 APM to 14 APM is not raising the skill floor here. The bads, with their potatoes for hands, still succeed at the formulaic CC+DPS fest just fine.

You can talk about "jealous bad players who cant do the thing that completes the thing on a higher thing like other players" when playing a character reaches a 200 APM threshold. Until then, its a hilarious strawman farce of an argument.

And for the record, I dont even want it nerfed. I'm just calling a spade a spade. Being from Wisconsin, I recognize cheese when I see it.

[goodspeed]

lol ya they should nerf it. Take out the caster stats as an option. And con. Now it's fixed and 100% for melee lol.

Been awhile for me but melee must of gotten a huge defensive boost outside of the max out trees to be needing a reaper nerf. Did we finally get some form of CC that doesn't outright suck and take forever in a day to recharge early on? Besides monk fistn

[Shadow_Jumper]

Once again Tilomere finds a build and player that show how little he actually knows about how the endgame meta is structured. Unless you're a Kensei caster hitting mobs with soundburst, you should be nerfed. Just ignore the actual reasons why DPS casting is useless in high skull reaper and ask for someone else's build to be nerfed instead because your builds can't compare. Genius.

[Bacab]

And for the record, I dont even want it nerfed. I'm just calling a spade a spade. Being from Wisconsin, I recognize cheese when I see it.

That made me chuckle.

[lyrecono]

It is very simple. Melee should not have 4x the dps of a dps caster while also having the AoE CC utility of a dps caster.

Not only is it very simple, the ability itself is bugged, and the DC is too high by 10, causing it to succeed 50% more of the time than intended, which is throwing epic feat selection and the power between melees (such as monks) and every other source of dps in the game out of whack. As stated by Steelstar:



If this is something you would like to fix, just leave the class level 29-30 part, and add a -9 modifier at the end and make it close enough.

This is causing nerfs to be directed at melee classes such as monks, which is ruining heroic class balance, which was already dominated by warlocks. The problem is high level melee, and as such, bug fixes and nerfs should be directed where they belong.

It will also fix all the melee complaints about a lack of CC against undead and other targets if it is converted to a non-helpless 3 second knockdown. Reaper mode is supposed to be about teamwork, not someone using bugged dire charge to solo R7 to replace CC classes with a higher dps melee class, countering the reaper mob saves increase by the bug, and using bugged self-healing that also isn't supposed to bypass the reaper penalty.


https://youtu.be/5qgVO7mI8J4

A good player with a good build(and what looks like good gear and plenty of past lives) completes a short an easy quest on a mere r7? A quest we so often farm for reaper exp on r8+ that many of us can find our way blindfolded by now?
And this after how many tries? Looking at his hp, that's easilly a 40+ reaper points, prob more.
He has worked hard for this, he earned it.

This after a near decade of caster dominance? Ever since the lv went up to 20 casters had the best cc, damage avoidence (by being ranged), had the best buffs, were more likely / able to use scrolls for what they didn't/wouldn't want to cast themselves., Had the best trash killing abilities in the game, could farm epic scrolls solo (back then, that was currency with rds and lds instead of plat or shards), do i need to go on?

Get of your high horse, instead of having the barb be an example to wich others can pull themselves up to, you have to get all negative and divert dev attention to melee nerfs? No thank you, they already have a hard time making new content and ballancing it.

[Dnarth]

Absolutely the worst idea of the day. No

[Niminae]

Stuff


Don't use the capabilities of the 1% to suggest nerfs for the 99%. Or really, for anyone. Dire Charge is just a tiny part of the character's build on the video you posted.

[AbyssalMage]

Why?

Developers, please add "Nerf" to your restricted list. I want to see "Nerf" as "****" from now on.

Thanks, and that is an easy fix.

[Niminae]

The "better argument" for a nerf for monks in heroics needed to come from examples of how they were OP in heroics.

Don't hold your breath looking for an effect which fits the cause. Stated intentions are coded vastly differently all the time by this dev team. Warlocks were said to be OP in Heroics. All the dev discussion prior to Update 36 specifically called out Warlock Heroic performance. Which they nerfed. And then went on to throw in nerfs to Epic Eldritch Blast and Epic Arcane Eldritch Blast because of nothing at all that was mentioned in the design discussion.

[Alled78]

It is very simple. Melee should not have 4x the dps of a dps caster while also having the AoE CC utility of a dps caster.

Not only is it very simple, the ability itself is bugged, and the DC is too high by 10, causing it to succeed 50% more of the time than intended, which is throwing epic feat selection and the power between melees (such as monks) and every other source of dps in the game out of whack. As stated by Steelstar:



If this is something you would like to fix, just leave the class level 29-30 part, and add a -9 modifier at the end and make it close enough.

This is causing nerfs to be directed at melee classes such as monks, which is ruining heroic class balance, which was already dominated by warlocks. The problem is high level melee, and as such, bug fixes and nerfs should be directed where they belong.

It will also fix all the melee complaints about a lack of CC against undead and other targets if it is converted to a non-helpless 3 second knockdown. Reaper mode is supposed to be about teamwork, not someone using bugged dire charge to solo R7 to replace CC classes with a higher dps melee class, countering the reaper mob saves increase by the bug, and using bugged self-healing that also isn't supposed to bypass the reaper penalty.


https://youtu.be/5qgVO7mI8J4


COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH YOU

ARE you joking Tilo I know

U asking for nerf Dire Charge because one of the best player in the server is able soloing ONE R7 quest, where all mobs are stunnable/holdable???

There are some caster able to do it in R10 probably

then u publish images u are able to do R10 using soundburst?? https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/497024-The-Call-to-Soundburst-(Paladin)


STOP "Call for NERF" instead or this game will soon shut down, pls

[CaptainPurge]

This entire thread is a troll by Tilo, he told me in person at a Starbucks after I offered to buy him a naked vanilla latte.

[Vish]

Ass ass in

[slarden]

Once again Tilomere finds a build and player that show how little he actually knows about how the endgame meta is structured. Unless you're a Kensei caster hitting mobs with soundburst, you should be nerfed. Just ignore the actual reasons why DPS casting is useless in high skull reaper and ask for someone else's build to be nerfed instead because your builds can't compare. Genius.

I am guessing /3 cleric build doesn't yield good results at level cap based on the fact you need so much gear to make it viable at 30 and -17 spell pen means you've given up on those mobs completely.

Martial builds are more common than casters in high skull level cap runs primarily because dps is so important in so many places - not because of dire charge. DPS works everywhere and without great dps the party completes too slowly. DC casters are still highly valuable, but you don't want more than 1 or 2 in a group because of the dps hit. DPS casters are great for lower skulls - but they don't scale well to high skulls at end game and I don't see how that can be changed without making them too dominant at lower skulls and/or risking making them being the best build as Shiradi was for so many years. For example if they reduce the reaper damage reduction on spells enough - more than martial - you will get the same small handful of people switching from martial to dps casters so you haven't really fixed balance- you just changed the meta.

Casters at high levels must have a good DC and decent support spells beyond dps and quite frankly I am not sure that is a problem. DC-dumping builds don't need to be supported to be as powerful as DC builds at high skull. Sometimes with the right synergies they work by accident which is fine - but I don't think they should have a shiradi caster pass simply because they've fallen behind other builds.

End game balance seems to be in a good place. I think the ideal party is 1-2 dc casters, 1 tank and the rest dps that have some cc - with ideally one of these being able to heal the party when needed, but I've seen parties with bad balance still complete - maybe longer - maybe sloppier, but full wipes are almost non-existent.

[lLockehart]

I'm flabbergasted by the amount of denial going on lol, it's amazing how people can suspend reality, the Op even presented a video which illustrates what's going on in visual medium.. ya know, so it becomes easier to understand as words are somehow lost in translation here.

Look, there's no reason to be defensive about Dire charge, it's obviously the premiere feat on every single melee build, independently of your stance for or against a nerf, it's just basic common sense to accept that the feat is, in fact, widely used because it's one of the strongest things the game offers.

And keep in mind, the player in the video was using a low Dps class, they're soloing with Barb for the Lifelink alone which while enabling you to solo Reaper content, it makes you miss on the healing if partied with other people (seeing as you need to land killing blows) and they'll be stranded with comparatively low Dps overall.
I run a lot of melees and almost every single one of them is a glass cannon until they get this (and every one of them, obviously does) then I just melt things right and left. On a Tempest it's just an insane amount of Dps boost, I can't even math how absurd it is.

So yeah... there's no need to cloak & dagger the issue, it's obviously something that's robbing the 29 slot of any choice, for better or worse while homogenizing every melee style and trivializing Monk's mechanics as a whole.

And now for my personal take on it and what I think:

I'm actually against the nerf because melees are in a weird spot where the game doesn't have enough defensive values (think when SSG introduced PRR) to succeed in normal fashion. The very end game is already restrictive to Caster CC spam followed by physical Dps. In an instance without Dire charge, melees would struggle even more to compete face to face with a small spider mob. I'd much rather have some playability in higher content solely out of Dire charge's existence than to have it weirdly nerfed, making melees a kind of damage bot where they don't have proactive options to engage.

I say the prime way to balance this is to work on a balance team and make the mobs have some identity versus every single one having almost the same damage values where everything is a walking nuke with shady hitboxes. I don't see this happening very soon though ~ if a nerf is indeed duo, I'd much rather have a longer cooldown on it.


Nah.

And melee don't have "4x the DPS of a DPS caster". A proper DPS caster hits numerous targets simultaneously. They clear masses of mobs with vast efficiency. Single high-hp mobs are their bane. (Of course, on sufficiently high Reaper, ALL mobs are high-HP, so it gets wonky.) For melee, the equation is usually reversed. They can burn down a single mob with unbelievable speed, but a large pack is too dangerous. They need heals and crowd control.

There are melee abilities that do pretty much what Dire Charge DOES on several trees. The stun doesn't last nearly as long as the cooldown. It gives you a few seconds breathing room, but by itself it is merely nice to have.

Are we playing the same game? Care to elaborate what's a "proper Dps caster"
Not trying to be a meanie but like, a damage focused Sorcerer has fallen horribly behind, I'd say you have way higher than 4x Dps to be honest. I'd love to see a bruntsmash by you where we can even divide the end time by 3 (simulating Aoe damage with three targets) I'm pretty sure melee Dps would still rank above.

Warlock blaster has fallen a little behind on Reaper as well but it's still the best option for that kind of fix I feel, it's super reliant on Nerve Venom and mimics a lot of what a Shiradi X used to do ~ but with a past life stacked build where you amount every crit chance you get, there *is* some decent damage to be found there but yeah, it doesn't align with melee numbers, that's for sure.
But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Also, care to elaborate what other melee abilities do the same thing as Dire charge? I'd love to Ap on them! can't go wrong with more Dire charges, that's certain.

[simo0208]

I'm flabbergasted by the amount of denial going on lol, it's amazing how people can suspend reality, the Op even presented a video which illustrates what's going on in visual medium.. ya know, so it becomes easier to understand as words are somehow lost in translation here.

Look, there's no reason to be defensive about Dire charge, it's obviously the premiere feat on every single melee build, independently of your stance for or against a nerf, it's just basic common sense to accept that the feat is, in fact, widely used because it's one of the strongest things the game offers.

And keep in mind, the player in the video was using a low Dps class, they're soloing with Barb for the Lifelink alone which while enabling you to solo Reaper content, it makes you miss on the healing if partied with other people (seeing as you need to land killing blows) and they'll be stranded with comparatively low Dps overall.
I run a lot of melees and almost every single one of them is a glass cannon until they get this (and every one of them, obviously does) then I just melt things right and left. On a Tempest it's just an insane amount of Dps boost, I can't even math how absurd it is.

So yeah... there's no need to cloak & dagger the issue, it's obviously something that's robbing the 29 slot of any choice, for better or worse while homogenizing every melee style and trivializing Monk's mechanics as a whole.

And now for my personal take on it and what I think:

I'm actually against the nerf because melees are in a weird spot where the game doesn't have enough defensive values (think when SSG introduced PRR) to succeed in normal fashion. The very end game is already restrictive to Caster CC spam followed by physical Dps. In an instance without Dire charge, melees would struggle even more to compete face to face with a small spider mob. I'd much rather have some playability in higher content solely out of Dire charge's existence than to have it weirdly nerfed, making melees a kind of damage bot where they don't have proactive options to engage.

I say the prime way to balance this is to work on a balance team and make the mobs have some identity versus every single one having almost the same damage values where everything is a walking nuke with shady hitboxes. I don't see this happening very soon though ~ if a nerf is indeed duo, I'd much rather have a longer cooldown on it.



Are we playing the same game? Care to elaborate what's a "proper Dps caster"
Not trying to be a meanie but like, a damage focused Sorcerer has fallen horribly behind, I'd say you have way higher than 4x Dps to be honest. I'd love to see a bruntsmash by you where we can even divide the end time by 3 (simulating Aoe damage with three targets) I'm pretty sure melee Dps would still rank above.

Warlock blaster has fallen a little behind on Reaper as well but it's still the best option for that kind of fix I feel, it's super reliant on Nerve Venom and mimics a lot of what a Shiradi X used to do ~ but with a past life stacked build where you amount every crit chance you get, there *is* some decent damage to be found there but yeah, it doesn't align with melee numbers, that's for sure.
But hey, I'd love to be proven wrong.

Also, care to elaborate what other melee abilities do the same thing as Dire charge? I'd love to Ap on them! can't go wrong with more Dire charges, that's certain.

Widely used and strongest is no indication of OP or even great. It's entirely that there is very little fruit on the tree from which for melees to pick.

Instead of going all, OMG, Dire Charge is OP, let's look at what other Destiny feats are available for a level 29 melee shall we (I'll even evaluate the level 28s and under in some instances):

Arcane Pulse: Not a caster
Epic X Spell Power: Not a caster
Deific Warding: +10 PRR/MRR, add a stack of +2 when hit up to 10 times with one stack going away every 3 seconds. Amounts to about 1-2% less damage. Terrible on nearly all builds.
Elusive Target (level 28): Typically your level 28 feat for a melee
Epic Skill Focus: lol
First Blood: Shouldn't have a level 28 requirement. Can't beat out Elusive Target in most instances
Dire Charge: Yep
Doubleshot: Ranged only
Mass Frog: Caster only
Wind through the trees: AC build only. On non AC builds, it represents a .25% of proc. Laughable
Dreamscape: Too random and all of the effects are either bad or easily replicated through spells or gear
Harbinger of Chaos: Too specific to lawful
Font of Life: Healing Amp is fine, but only 20 at level 29, not good enough
Embodiment of Law: Too specific to chaotic
Spirit Blades: lol
Arcane Warrior: lol

So that's it. Tell me, if the devs nerf dire charge, what is left for Melees to even take? The answer? Virtually nothing. Almost none of those feats are even "epic." The problem is not Dire Charge. The problem is the feat choices at level 29 for melees.

[Qhualor]

Widely used and strongest is no indication of OP or even great. It's entirely that there is very little fruit on the tree from which for melees to pick.

Instead of going all, OMG, Dire Charge is OP, let's look at what other Destiny feats are available for a level 29 melee shall we (I'll even evaluate the level 28s and under in some instances):

Arcane Pulse: Not a caster
Epic X Spell Power: Not a caster
Deific Warding: +10 PRR/MRR, add a stack of +2 when hit up to 10 times with one stack going away every 3 seconds. Amounts to about 1-2% less damage. Terrible on nearly all builds.
Elusive Target (level 28): Typically your level 28 feat for a melee
Epic Skill Focus: lol
First Blood: Shouldn't have a level 28 requirement. Can't beat out Elusive Target in most instances
Dire Charge: Yep
Doubleshot: Ranged only
Mass Frog: Caster only
Wind through the trees: AC build only. On non AC builds, it represents a .25% of proc. Laughable
Dreamscape: Too random and all of the effects are either bad or easily replicated through spells or gear
Harbinger of Chaos: Too specific to lawful
Font of Life: Healing Amp is fine, but only 20 at level 29, not good enough
Embodiment of Law: Too specific to chaotic
Spirit Blades: lol
Arcane Warrior: lol

So that's it. Tell me, if the devs nerf dire charge, what is left for Melees to even take? The answer? Virtually nothing. Almost none of those feats are even "epic." The problem is not Dire Charge. The problem is the feat choices at level 29 for melees.

Not that I completely disagree, if the devs offered more choices for melee it would have to be on the same power level or better as Dire Charge or players would continue to take the feat. I do think there is some cloak and dagger stuff going on because I find it funny when someone brings attention to Dire Charge all of a sudden people are trying to play it off, which is the complete opposite of what I have been reading about it for months now.

I will be testing Dire Charge out for myself, but I think my suspicions won't be far off. What I will say is that it might be time to revisit these feats and maybe add more options. A lot of those epic feats were designed during a different era in the game.

[simo0208]

Not that I completely disagree, if the devs offered more choices for melee it would have to be on the same power level or better as Dire Charge or players would continue to take the feat. I do think there is some cloak and dagger stuff going on because I find it funny when someone brings attention to Dire Charge all of a sudden people are trying to play it off, which is the complete opposite of what I have been reading about it for months now.

I will be testing Dire Charge out for myself, but I think my suspicions won't be far off. What I will say is that it might be time to revisit these feats and maybe add more options. A lot of those epic feats were designed during a different era in the game.

You haven't even used it and you're literally making judgments (it just seems like people all use it, blah blah blah). How about use actual empirical evidence before even weighing in?

I've used it for multiple lives. It's good. It's not great or broken. As I said earlier, it's got a lot of limitations (small radius, many immune mobs, cool down, low duration of effect), but it gets used in all the builds because there literally is no other choice - as I laid out. Yes, something new would have to be on the same power level, but that power level is just fine as is. Heck, if you had a mass knockdown effect, people would take that instead. Melee need some form of AoE crowd control to be effective at times. It doesn't have to be "great." It just has to work well enough to help them get out of a bad place or keep mobs occupied while they handle the baddies a couple at a time.

[Hirosue]

It is very simple. Melee should not have 4x the dps of a dps caster while also having the AoE CC utility of a dps caster.

Not only is it very simple, the ability itself is bugged, and the DC is too high by 10, causing it to succeed 50% more of the time than intended, which is throwing epic feat selection and the power between melees (such as monks) and every other source of dps in the game out of whack. As stated by Steelstar:



If this is something you would like to fix, just leave the class level 29-30 part, and add a -9 modifier at the end and make it close enough.

This is causing nerfs to be directed at melee classes such as monks, which is ruining heroic class balance, which was already dominated by warlocks. The problem is high level melee, and as such, bug fixes and nerfs should be directed where they belong.

It will also fix all the melee complaints about a lack of CC against undead and other targets if it is converted to a non-helpless 3 second knockdown. Reaper mode is supposed to be about teamwork, not someone using bugged dire charge to solo R7 to replace CC classes with a higher dps melee class, countering the reaper mob saves increase by the bug, and using bugged self-healing that also isn't supposed to bypass the reaper penalty.


https://youtu.be/5qgVO7mI8J4



Complete and utter rubbish .Your argument is so full of bias and vitriol to be almost a joke , are you trolling maybe ?

Melee do not in any way have more DPS than casters.

You post a video link as "proof" which shows an exceptional or outstanding melee player with top level gear and stats who has 4000 plus hit points and who is cleaving in the multiple thousands. he clearly has crazy high Strength as well an reaper enhancement trees maxed out.

This player is in no way representative of the mass of the melee players out there he is clearly exceptional .

To demand a nerf to a useful melee feat on the basis that you have is beyond reasoned argument and is just trolling or crying about someones achievement.

[lLockehart]

Widely used and strongest is no indication of OP or even great. It's entirely that there is very little fruit on the tree from which for melees to pick.

Instead of going all, OMG, Dire Charge is OP, let's look at what other Destiny feats are available for a level 29 melee shall we (I'll even evaluate the level 28s and under in some instances):

Arcane Pulse: Not a caster
Epic X Spell Power: Not a caster
Deific Warding: +10 PRR/MRR, add a stack of +2 when hit up to 10 times with one stack going away every 3 seconds. Amounts to about 1-2% less damage. Terrible on nearly all builds.
Elusive Target (level 28): Typically your level 28 feat for a melee
Epic Skill Focus: lol
First Blood: Shouldn't have a level 28 requirement. Can't beat out Elusive Target in most instances
Dire Charge: Yep
Doubleshot: Ranged only
Mass Frog: Caster only
Wind through the trees: AC build only. On non AC builds, it represents a .25% of proc. Laughable
Dreamscape: Too random and all of the effects are either bad or easily replicated through spells or gear
Harbinger of Chaos: Too specific to lawful
Font of Life: Healing Amp is fine, but only 20 at level 29, not good enough
Embodiment of Law: Too specific to chaotic
Spirit Blades: lol
Arcane Warrior: lol

So that's it. Tell me, if the devs nerf dire charge, what is left for Melees to even take? The answer? Virtually nothing. Almost none of those feats are even "epic." The problem is not Dire Charge. The problem is the feat choices at level 29 for melees.

No one is going all out on "OMG, Dire Charge is OP" you're the one hyperbolizing it to silly heights. As I've said above, I'm against the nerf in our current state.

As for the other feats, the purest Dps option is the alignment procs since they scale with power but with the advent of Reaper severely cutting the value of procs, it's just not viable at all but they do have a component that works regardless of alignment and Arcane warrior is actually not so bad in a vacuum, we just lack any real spell-melee hybrid to make use of it.

The issue is that even if there was a much more powerful Dps feat, alongside very good survivable tools, Dire charge would still be the prime pick, it's... very easy to see why and there's no need to be defensive about it ~ It'll be very hard to design something that's as good or justifies in some way giving up Dire charge. On a Tempest, it's virtually an aoe insta-kill and it's just too easy to spec DC into it. It's true that we lack balance on... almost 90% of our feat choices, even in Heroics, it's a pitfall of noob traps filled with things that have aged incredibly poorly but that's not the reason Dire charge is what it is.

Now, as I've said above, that doesn't mean it's due for a nerf but here is where we debate things personally and I personally think that in our current state, we do need this feat to keep things viable and playable. In the future, where hopefully there's a deftly revamp of feats with a balanced focus update math wise so melees aren't so prone to being nuked by an average mob glancing, I'd be super okay with removing Dire charge or restricting it to more Tanky roles, it would be super healthy for the game in my opinion.

But as it is, I do agree that we should keep it in its current form.
As for Casters being on the rock bottom of damage dealing, that's another issue entirely that needs a good look at (not simply adding Sla's of existing spells, *evil wink*)

[simo0208]

No one is going all out on "OMG, Dire Charge is OP" you're the one hyperbolizing it to silly heights. As I've said above, I'm against the nerf in our current state.

As for the other feats, the purest Dps option is the alignment procs since they scale with power but with the advent of Reaper severely cutting the value of procs, it's just not viable at all but they do have a component that works regardless of alignment and Arcane warrior is actually not so bad in a vacuum, we just lack any real spell-melee hybrid to make use of it.

The issue is that even if there was a much more powerful Dps feat, alongside very good survivable tools, Dire charge would still be the prime pick, it's... very easy to see why and there's no need to be defensive about it ~ It'll be very hard to design something that's as good or justifies in some way giving up Dire charge. On a Tempest, it's virtually an aoe insta-kill and it's just too easy to spec DC into it. It's true that we lack balance on... almost 90% of our feat choices, even in Heroics, it's a pitfall of noob traps filled with things that have aged incredibly poorly but that's not the reason Dire charge is what it is.

Now, as I've said above, that doesn't mean it's due for a nerf but here is where we debate things personally and I personally think that in our current state, we do need this feat to keep things viable and playable. In the future, where hopefully there's a deftly revamp of feats with a balanced focus update math wise so melees aren't so prone to being nuked by an average mob glancing, I'd be super okay with removing Dire charge or restricting it to more Tanky roles, it would be super healthy for the game in my opinion.

But as it is, I do agree that we should keep it in its current form.
As for Casters being on the rock bottom of damage dealing, that's another issue entirely that needs a good look at (not simply adding Sla's of existing spells, *evil wink*)

The OP is clearly going OMG Dire Charge is OP...

[lLockehart]

Complete and utter rubbish .Your argument is so full of bias and vitriol to be almost a joke , are you trolling maybe ?

Melee do not in any way have more DPS than casters.

You post a video link as "proof" which shows an exceptional or outstanding melee player with top level gear and stats who has 4000 plus hit points and who is cleaving in the multiple thousands. he clearly has crazy high Strength as well an reaper enhancement trees maxed out.

This player is in no way representative of the mass of the melee players out there he is clearly exceptional .

To demand a nerf to a useful melee feat on the basis that you have is beyond reasoned argument and is just trolling or crying about someones achievement.


lol x'D

Okay, no hard feelings man, maybe you're right! maybe we do have such an extreme casual playerbase that this becomes a lavish exception.

I still remember back in the early stages of the game where I discovered Niac's cold ray, that was the dynamite! and I imagine a Sorc in the early levels, outside of Reaper caaaaaan still be quite a force of nature? But then again so is any melee with a cleave? Well, you do you. PM your caster build btw if you can, I must be out of my element, I'm very curious about it.

Okay okay, I'll stop but seriously, like... I don't know. I'd seriously be interested in some demographic stats, we don't have a lot of players overall but I mean, is it that exceptional? I've seen quite a number of good players around ~ /shrug.

[Nickodeamous]

This whole thread has made me chuckle. I play a handwrap endgame gear wielding monk on Khyber. The problem with the Nerf argument is that it makes no sense.

Ok, so hear me out...DIRE CHARGE DOES NOT WORK ON UNDEAD/GHOSTS/REAPERS/RED NAMES/PURPLE NAMES

case closed...most of the new RL quests are undead, so the argument is null and void.

But, yes, I have to admit, I will absolutely decimate Grim and Barrett, Slavers, the U38 content, and any other fleshy based quests after level 29. I guess while you are at it, lets Nerf Tomb of Jade because I can Jade Reapers on R10. To me, all I am doing is helping the group complete the quest.

just had to laugh. :)

Nico

[slarden]

lol x'D

Okay, no hard feelings man, maybe you're right! maybe we do have such an extreme casual playerbase that this becomes a lavish exception.

I still remember back in the early stages of the game where I discovered Niac's cold ray, that was the dynamite! and I imagine a Sorc in the early levels, outside of Reaper caaaaaan still be quite a force of nature? But then again so is any melee with a cleave? Well, you do you. PM your caster build btw if you can, I must be out of my element, I'm very curious about it.

Okay okay, I'll stop but seriously, like... I don't know. I'd seriously be interested in some demographic stats, we don't have a lot of players overall but I mean, is it that exceptional? I've seen quite a number of good players around ~ /shrug.i agree martial damage is significantly better than caster damage -not sure how people playing both could conclude otherwise, but I don’t think that makes dire charge over-powered. Real casters are doing fine but some gimmicky dc dumping builds are no longer as effective. I don’t see a big need to buff or nerf anything.

I am am not sure why people get their underwear all tied up in knots because people are soling mid-high skulls. Solo builds generally make trade-offs to solo tough content. This post like most of his other nerf request posts are comical, but without any merit.

[mr420247]

Great vid nicely done

If you could get visage of terror on it too looks like alot of fun

Dire charge is ok and its a 29 feat so yes it should work as for no other options

Hell ball the 27 caster feat was hella nerfed to useless garbage and the only other feat a caster can take is elusive target

Do epic destiny feats need a work over both sides sure do bogw the 24 feat is still broken just like i'm guessing the shield stuns

Dcs are probably still broken cuz i never see anyone using them even on a vanguard so stuff def needs to be fixed

Dc casters vs instakiller r5 baseline ok 1 fod costs 87 spell points and will kill 1 non warded mob ok 1 ruin and greater ruin cost 100 + sp and will not

1 wail will kill multiple mobs for 88 spell points 1 hell ball or even energy burst combined with mass hold for what like 150+ sp. Will kill nothing

Which results in serious problems in class balance

[Hirosue]

lol x'D

Okay, no hard feelings man, maybe you're right! maybe we do have such an extreme casual playerbase that this becomes a lavish exception.

I still remember back in the early stages of the game where I discovered Niac's cold ray, that was the dynamite! and I imagine a Sorc in the early levels, outside of Reaper caaaaaan still be quite a force of nature? But then again so is any melee with a cleave? Well, you do you. PM your caster build btw if you can, I must be out of my element, I'm very curious about it.

Okay okay, I'll stop but seriously, like... I don't know. I'd seriously be interested in some demographic stats, we don't have a lot of players overall but I mean, is it that exceptional? I've seen quite a number of good players around ~ /shrug.

ok Tilo roll yer-self up a level 30 barb, the best you can , get loads of great gear ,then go see if you can solo it on R7 and post your video as evidence that you were only able to do it because of dire charge.

By the way how exactly would nerf Dire charge make your caster better ? looks to me like you are jealous of someones achievement or trolling or both.

[lLockehart]

ok Tilo roll yer-self up a level 30 barb, the best you can , get loads of great gear ,then go see if you can solo it on R7 and post your video as evidence that you were only able to do it because of dire charge.

By the way how exactly would nerf Dire charge make your caster better ? looks to me like you are jealous of someones achievement or trolling or both.

Err, as evidenced by my fabulous username and equally charming golden wing on a blue background avatar, I'm not Tilo ;-;

Did he start the thread out of jealousy? who knows, you seem like you're very sure of it, if you're right, I must concede that your powers of deduction are quite legendary.

Look, it's not that exceptional, the player is running with T5 from Ravager which enables them full healing procs on Reaper, provided you land the killing blow which offers the bulk of the sum. Then he spams dire charge which enables them to both stay alive while dishing an enormous amount of extra damage since you normally get 50% from the helpless state, then another 30% from Sense weakness, 50% from Dreadnaught's capstone and lastly, 15% from the AP tree.
It's a good show for sure and it's awesome to see bloodfeast doing work.

... So yes, Dire charge is what's keeping melees in the ball park, especially in fleshy heavy content and since it's so easy to spec DC into it, everyone does it because... why wouldn't they? as Simo pointed out, there's no better alternative and it would be very hard to justify giving up Dire charge even it there were other good options.

Does it deserve a nerf? that's up for debate but clearly it's one of the strongest mechanics we currently have in the game - obviously and it's totally fine to affirm that. I also don't think it should be nerfed currently but it's just really awkward to see such defensive measures from people who should know better.

But you're right. It doesn't pertain in any way to having caster damage revamped and balanced which needs its own update and hopefully an hefty amount of time spent on it so they can get it right.

[Qhualor]

You haven't even used it and you're literally making judgments (it just seems like people all use it, blah blah blah). How about use actual empirical evidence before even weighing in?

I've used it for multiple lives. It's good. It's not great or broken. As I said earlier, it's got a lot of limitations (small radius, many immune mobs, cool down, low duration of effect), but it gets used in all the builds because there literally is no other choice - as I laid out. Yes, something new would have to be on the same power level, but that power level is just fine as is. Heck, if you had a mass knockdown effect, people would take that instead. Melee need some form of AoE crowd control to be effective at times. It doesn't have to be "great." It just has to work well enough to help them get out of a bad place or keep mobs occupied while they handle the baddies a couple at a time.

I am making assumptions based on what is suggested in a lot of build threads and discussions, yes. That is what led me to say that next time Lamannia is open I will test it and see for myself. What helped me lead to assumptions and wanting to test Dire Charge is the sudden flip flop of often suggested on most melee classes taking this feat and this thread saying its not that bad, leave it as is, melee needs this, etc.

To be continued...

[shinsirhc]

Lots of people assuming and wants a nerf to something they haven't even tried.

That's the problem with opinionated people trying to tell other people to nerf this and that base on what they see but they themselves haven't even tried the things they want to nerf.

[Chai]

Lots of people assuming and wants a nerf to something they haven't even tried.

That's the problem with opinionated people trying to tell other people to nerf this and that base on what they see but they themselves haven't even tried the things they want to nerf.

Apply that to almost every post class revamp nerf discussion, as well as the warlock release.

[Xanthrawl]

Dire Charge is fine. In a group setting, which most people in high skulls reaper would be, you'll likely have a DC caster throwing holds anyway. Dire Charge provides a bit of wiggle room if things turn sideways. It really shines when you do not have a DC caster to CC the mobs, but is still not overpowered. They actually made it a nice balance of effect vs. duration vs. cooldown IMO. We need more effects like this in the game, not less. And they should be feats, like Dire Charge is. As has been pointed out, Epic Feats are sorely lacking for MOST builds, not just melees.

[xveganrox]

Not that I completely disagree, if the devs offered more choices for melee it would have to be on the same power level or better as Dire Charge or players would continue to take the feat. I do think there is some cloak and dagger stuff going on because I find it funny when someone brings attention to Dire Charge all of a sudden people are trying to play it off, which is the complete opposite of what I have been reading about it for months now.

Cloak and dagger? Dire Charge is really powerful -- like a level 29 feat should be -- and offers melees AoE CC + DPS. It's really good. Burst of Glacial Wrath offers AoE CC + DPS as well, it's a level 24 caster feat. Mass Hold Monster offers AoE CC + DPS as well, wizards can get it at level 17.

The only option that all melees have for CC+DPS is Stunning Blow, which costs a feat and requires you to be strength-based. The caster equivalent would be removing all CC except hold monster, making it available as a feat only, and making it scale off of Dex.

Btw, casters can take Dire Charge as well, and most casters will have higher Dire Charge DCs than non-fighter melee builds (and definitely higher than TwF builds). Some of them do, but it isn't ubiquitous because casters have other options. IMO Dire Charge's high use shows the need for other melee CC options... Stunning Charge (DC 10 + highest stat bonus + stunning mods) as an heroic feat, anyone?

[Nickodeamous]

Dire Charge is fine. In a group setting, which most people in high skulls reaper would be, you'll likely have a DC caster throwing holds anyway. Dire Charge provides a bit of wiggle room if things turn sideways. It really shines when you do not have a DC caster to CC the mobs, but is still not overpowered. They actually made it a nice balance of effect vs. duration vs. cooldown IMO. We need more effects like this in the game, not less. And they should be feats, like Dire Charge is. As has been pointed out, Epic Feats are sorely lacking for MOST builds, not just melees.

completely agree here. Dire charge benefits all party members. It is only avail at level 29, and it doesn't work on anything that is not a fleshy. So, in essence, it works say 50% of the time. If you are running amber temple on R10, sure, you can have a warlock kill a few with Hurl, but the mobs will come and kill everybody. Dire Charge helps your casters get those reaper points. If it is stunned, it can be killed. How about Tomb of Jade? if is the only thing that stuns reapers and those flaming skulls. I honestly think that this is just a troll to get everybody up in arms. The same thing happened with Duality, which they nerfed. good news for good players is they still rock, but just not as hard. If Dire Charge was ever nerfed, you would see a massive imbalance in the game, plus it would really hurt a balanced party. just my 2 cents.

[mr420247]

Been saying a band aid solution in game already for heroic melees

A feat aoe knock down giant stomp a barb charges in slams the ground like a giant with barb strength

10 sec knockdown aoe strenth based available at level 3

Already in the game so should not be alot of code work either just make it a feat

[RevCo]

Not here to join the argument but in search of information on Dire Charge: Does the attack/effect of Dire Charge scale with melee power? I just tried for the first time on my last ETR round and found it worked nicely for my Cleric/Fighter build. And if not how would one increase the damage for what it's worth. Anyhow, any info regarding my question would be greatly appreciated.

RevCo

[mr420247]

Mainly for the CC the damage portion doesn't matter

The helpless cleave damage while stunned i think does

Or even better stun every pack then insta kill them with visage of terror cleave any remaining champs

[lLockehart]

Not here to join the argument but in search of information on Dire Charge: Does the attack/effect of Dire Charge scale with melee power? I just tried for the first time on my last ETR round and found it worked nicely for my Cleric/Fighter build. And if not how would one increase the damage for what it's worth. Anyhow, any info regarding my question would be greatly appreciated.

RevCo

Correct, it does scale with melee power if you're using a melee. It adds a 2W to your existing damage formula and executes a small radius Aoe attack. Say you're using a normal Greataxe, you add 2d12, with a Longsword, you add 2d8, etc. This, along with all W bonuses, becomes better with weapons that have special dice (see heroic Insurrection, it has a 1d18) and more recently the Ravenloft weapons that add a +X at the end of the die.

While the damage component is nice, we normally use it for the helpless effect (when they're stunned) which boosts all damage by 50%. Indeed, even if Dire charge would be an ability with no damage, we'd all still use it.

Things to keep in mind is your to-hit so the stun can actually go off and slot in gear with stunning DC. Having a good Aoe attack to follow up a Dire charge can be a good two way combo.

A Tempest can Dance of death to start mowing down the baddies.
Can't go wrong with a cleave follow up.
A Vanguard can smash their Aoe shield clickie for massive damage which I always find hilarious and gratifying, especially if you're using the Ravenloft aggressive shield, it's really been one of my most fun times.
A Monk can follow up with their cool spinning kick (Whirlwind attack)
Or one can just pop an Haste boost and start left clicking.

And so many more, you get the picture.

If you're succeeding in Dire charging, I would advise twisting Sense weakness (Tier 4 from the Barbarian ED) to boost 30% more damage on helpless targets. Then run in Dreadnaught with an AB (Action boost) active so you get another 50% Boost for a total of 130% more damage, adds up reaaaal fast.

[Qhualor]

Correct, it does scale with melee power if you're using a melee. It adds a 2W to your existing damage formula and executes a small radius Aoe attack. Say you're using a normal Greataxe, you add 2d12, with a Longsword, you add 2d8, etc. This, along with all W bonuses, becomes better with weapons that have special dice (see heroic Insurrection, it has a 1d18) and more recently the Ravenloft weapons that add a +X at the end of the die.

While the damage component is nice, we normally use it for the helpless effect (when they're stunned) which boosts all damage by 50%. Indeed, even if Dire charge would be an ability with no damage, we'd all still use it.

Things to keep in mind is your to-hit so the stun can actually go off and slot in gear with stunning DC. Having a good Aoe attack to follow up a Dire charge can be a good two way combo.

A Tempest can Dance of death to start mowing down the baddies.
Can't go wrong with a cleave follow up.
A Vanguard can smash their Aoe shield clickie for massive damage which I always find hilarious and gratifying, especially if you're using the Ravenloft aggressive shield, it's really been one of my most fun times.
A Monk can follow up with their cool spinning kick (Whirlwind attack)
Or one can just pop an Haste boost and start left clicking.

And so many more, you get the picture.

If you're succeeding in Dire charging, I would advise twisting Sense weakness (Tier 4 from the Barbarian ED) to boost 30% more damage on helpless targets. Then run in Dreadnaught with an AB (Action boost) active so you get another 50% Boost for a total of 130% more damage, adds up reaaaal fast.

This is exactly what I keep reading about as the most optimal way to use Dire Charge. I believe most, if not, every class has access to some AOE enhancement or spell, so the trick seems to be getting the DCs and to-hit high enough to land the attack. I wonder what the DC and to-hit is to shoot for to make Dire Charge work at least 50%?

[RevCo]

Correct, it does scale with melee power if you're using a melee. It adds a 2W to your existing damage formula and executes a small radius Aoe attack. Say you're using a normal Greataxe, you add 2d12, with a Longsword, you add 2d8, etc. This, along with all W bonuses, becomes better with weapons that have special dice (see heroic Insurrection, it has a 1d18) and more recently the Ravenloft weapons that add a +X at the end of the die.

While the damage component is nice, we normally use it for the helpless effect (when they're stunned) which boosts all damage by 50%. Indeed, even if Dire charge would be an ability with no damage, we'd all still use it.

Things to keep in mind is your to-hit so the stun can actually go off and slot in gear with stunning DC. Having a good Aoe attack to follow up a Dire charge can be a good two way combo.

A Tempest can Dance of death to start mowing down the baddies.
Can't go wrong with a cleave follow up.
A Vanguard can smash their Aoe shield clickie for massive damage which I always find hilarious and gratifying, especially if you're using the Ravenloft aggressive shield, it's really been one of my most fun times.
A Monk can follow up with their cool spinning kick (Whirlwind attack)
Or one can just pop an Haste boost and start left clicking.

And so many more, you get the picture.

If you're succeeding in Dire charging, I would advise twisting Sense weakness (Tier 4 from the Barbarian ED) to boost 30% more damage on helpless targets. Then run in Dreadnaught with an AB (Action boost) active so you get another 50% Boost for a total of 130% more damage, adds up reaaaal fast.

Thank you for the reply! Just to share abit of info on my toon, I do use Legendary Dreadnought on the bludgeon side of things and able to bring my melee power on average for up to 10secs peak at 300. Not sure if this is a good number or not, also the melee damage from Dire Charge that gets 2W extra, is that added to my physical melee attack with (in my case warhammers) from ravenloft lvl29? The reason I ask is because I'm confused on the action of using Dire Charge initially does in damage when my melee power is peaking around 2k or more without making one swimg. Either instant death or stunned and I chomp away from twisting Sense weakness plus consecration when in divine ed.

RevCo

[lLockehart]

Thank you for the reply! Just to share abit of info on my toon, I do use Legendary Dreadnought on the bludgeon side of things and able to bring my melee power on average for up to 10secs peak at 300. Not sure if this is a good number or not, also the melee damage from Dire Charge that gets 2W extra, is that added to my physical melee attack with (in my case warhammers) from ravenloft lvl29? The reason I ask is because I'm confused on the action of using Dire Charge initially does in damage when my melee power is peaking around 2k or more without making one swimg. Either instant death or stunned and I chomp away from twisting Sense weakness plus consecration when in divine ed.

RevCo

300 is definitely a very solid number while action boosting.

Yes, your Warhammer from RL should have 5[1d8+2] There's things that empower the base die such as a guild buff that adds... 0,25? unsure but it's around that number, Improved power attack adds 0,50 and there's a bunch of different AP enhancements. You can check your current damage formula by opening the inventory and clicking that little arrow on the bottom right, it'll show your To-hit, damage formula and bonus damage.

Let's say you're using the RL Warhammer without any added boosts, by Dire charging, your formula goes from 5[1d8+2] to 7[1d8+2], not only do you get to roll two 1d8's extra, you also add a flat +4 damage. The same is true for any clickie skill that uses W's like normal Cleaves. This also means it follows the same critical profile of your weapon, it's basically an empowered normal attack with added benefits (Aoe and stun).

So what may be happening is having some mobs being critted by the Charge and outright dying.

[RevCo]

300 is definitely a very solid number while action boosting.

Yes, your Warhammer from RL should have 5[1d8+2] There's things that empower the base die such as a guild buff that adds... 0,25? unsure but it's around that number, Improved power attack adds 0,50 and there's a bunch of different AP enhancements. You can check your current damage formula by opening the inventory and clicking that little arrow on the bottom right, it'll show your To-hit, damage formula and bonus damage.

Let's say you're using the RL Warhammer without any added boosts, by Dire charging, your formula goes from 5[1d8+2] to 7[1d8+2], not only do you get to roll two 1d8's extra, you also add a flat +4 damage. The same is true for any clickie skill that uses W's like normal Cleaves. This also means it follows the same critical profile of your weapon, it's basically an empowered normal attack with added benefits (Aoe and stun).

So what may be happening is having some mobs being critted by the Charge and outright dying.


Rightio then! Again wasn't sure if I was on the right track or no. So thank you again. Just a little combo I use to regenerate the action boosts for dire charge when peaking out my melee power: I duel wield warhammers. my main hand is morninglord sentient with prowess at 5 slots and off hand is a TF warhammer tier 3 using draconic Reinvigoration feature. Both of these together work great since I have my toon set for the best criticals I can manage. Most of the suggestions you made such as power attack I've been using as well. I'm not saying I'm over the top but I can generally hold the line fairly well without much concern.

So pretty please don't do anything to dire charge... leave it alone lol Melee just wanna have now hehe

RevCo