Crit range Nerf incoming!

[Robai]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.


This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow) / SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Drow Quarterstaff (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Quarterstaff_of_the_Weapon_Master)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Drow Rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Silver Longbow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Silver_bow)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Stout Oak Walking Stick (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Stout_Oak_Walking_Stick)
20-20 (w/o Impact) 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Elemental_Bloom) / Elemental Bloom (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Elemental_Bloom)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Oathblade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

EDIT 3:
The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.
This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

EDIT 4:
Ok, let's see the table after the correct nerf:



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow) / SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 13-20 11-20 12-20 9-20 11-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)
18-20 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Drow Quarterstaff (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Quarterstaff_of_the_Weapon_Master)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Drow Rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master)
17-20 13-20 13-20 11-20 12-20 9-20 11-20


Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Silver Longbow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Silver_bow)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Stout Oak Walking Stick (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Stout_Oak_Walking_Stick)
20-20 (w/o Impact) 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Elemental_Bloom) / Elemental Bloom (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Elemental_Bloom)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Oathblade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20



EDIT 5:
Yay! Severlin actually listened (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post/page66#post5707815) to the feedback!

[Livmo]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen:


WeaponBase crit rangeCrit range with Old IC featCrit range with New IC feat

ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (the range is shortened by 2)


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (the range is shortened by 2)



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

Could you add my Needle to that pls?

Not so easy to get and has an x3 crit range.

[Saekee]

add rogue daggers with knife spec, 16-20/3 instead of 15-20/3.

[Chai]

People have been advocating nerfs since the first class pass. The forum Kool-Aid has been served and consumed. Let the cross referencing of posts of those who repeatedly demanded nerfs in the recent past to those who are now rallying against nerfs currently, begin.

[unbongwah]

You can add most of the good Swashbuckling weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_Swashbuckler_weapons_with_improved_crit_pr ofile) as well, anything with a higher-than-normal crit range. Swashbucklers who don't use rapiers get hit with a double-whammy with the Imp Crit nerf, because their crit range bonuses will also no longer be doubled. :( Actually, make that a triple-whammy, since Exploit Weakness will no longer be doubled by Imp Crit, either.

Ironic that the class which is supposedly the DPS baseline for this rebalancing is going to be one of the hardest-hit by the DPS nerfs.

[Gremmlynn]

This is going to take a lot of the weapon diversity swash adds out, as rapier and kukri will be better than everything else again due to getting full effect from IC.

[Robai]

Could you add my Needle to that pls?
Done!

[Livmo]

Done!

TYVM for adding the Needle and for adding the Pinion, woot woot!

Also, I run allot of different types of arties, and on a handful I alternate Many Shot and Endless Fuselodge. I can use 2 Endless Fuselodges while Many Shot is on cool down. On these builds I'm typically alternating the Needle and the Pinion.

Much apprecaited!!!

[Robai]

add rogue daggers with knife spec, 16-20/3 instead of 15-20/3.

Done!
Added Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss).

[Navox]

This nerf plus the manyshot nerf = my cancelled VIP, and never looking back.

[Robai]

You can add most of the good Swashbuckling weapons (http://ddowiki.com/page/List_of_Swashbuckler_weapons_with_improved_crit_pr ofile) as well, anything with a higher-than-normal crit range. Swashbucklers who don't use rapiers get hit with a double-whammy with the Imp Crit nerf, because their crit range bonuses will also no longer be doubled. :( Actually, make that a triple-whammy, since Exploit Weakness will no longer be doubled by Imp Crit, either.

Ironic that the class which is supposedly the DPS baseline for this rebalancing is going to be one of the hardest-hit by the DPS nerfs.

Done!
Added Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade), which is a very interesting example since crit range is nerfed by 3 for this weapon :)

[Lemdog]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20 11-20 15-20


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20 11-20 15-20


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT. Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

Yeah the new balance passes are sealing the deal for me. no one can have my stuff because its not permanent, but this will make me quit.

[Cantor]

This was so needed, and everyone has known it was coming. I would have liked it if they only hit threat abilities with it instead of items with improved threat, but I'm guessing this is just easier to program.

Oh and staff gets a little consolation in that pulverizer will now stack with the staff spec.

[Soleran100]

Guess I need to sell my tome pages before the folks who love deathnips find out about this!

[dunklezhan]

be nice if you included the heroic versions of some of this.

I know I won't be popular for saying this, but I don't actually disagree with the changes in general. However, its very useful to have it all laid out visibly like this, so thanks!

Specifically, I think perhaps they want to rethink the blunts though. Staffs, Mauls etc actually needed a buff - maybe should've included them in the +2 crit range bracket just for that, even if thematically its a bit odd.

[Basura_Grande]

All hail king Balizarde!

[PsychoBlonde]

This was so needed, and everyone has known it was coming. I would have liked it if they only hit threat abilities with it instead of items with improved threat, but I'm guessing this is just easier to program.

Oh and staff gets a little consolation in that pulverizer will now stack with the staff spec.

Actually this makes it a lot easier for them to add in unusual crit ranges without accidentally producing something wildly overpowered, because the stacking on various effects will be a lot more consistent and universal. Remember what a debacle Deadly Weapons was back when it first came out, doubling weapon damage on everything? That was why they instituted the entire +[w] system in the first place. People screamed about that being a "nerf" and what happened, oh, look, now we have weapons that are vastly more powerful because they have higher weapon multipliers than even existed at that time. Everybody always whines about what it'll do to their current builds without thinking about what other options it'll make available in the future. Think ahead? No, I must defend my little fort to the death because The Way it Is Now is The One True Way Ordained By God and anything else is Unacceptable.

[Robai]

Guess I need to sell my tome pages before the folks who love deathnips find out about this!

Yeah, you bring a good example since Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip) also has Heartseeker IV and Seeker +10, which works on criticals only. So, yeah, this weapon will be nerfed indeed very hard.


be nice if you included the heroic versions of some of this.

I know I won't be popular for saying this, but I don't actually disagree with the changes in general. However, its very useful to have it all laid out visibly like this, so thanks!

Specifically, I think perhaps they want to rethink the blunts though. Staffs, Mauls etc actually needed a buff - maybe should've included them in the +2 crit range bracket just for that, even if thematically its a bit odd.

Any specific requests?
So far there are 3 heroic weapons on that list: SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow), Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher) and Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip).

[dunklezhan]

Yeah, you bring a good example since Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip) also has Heartseeker IV and Seeker +10, which works on criticals only. So, yeah, this weapon will be nerfed indeed very hard.



Any specific requests?
So far there are 3 heroic weapons on that list: SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow), Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher) and Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip).

Oops, hadn't spotted them. Was thinking how sky pirate's dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger) and Tiefling Assassin's blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade) combined with swashbuckly bonuses are going to turn out. Obviously these lower level weapons have 'keen' rather than IC crit on them, but that crit range on a swashbuckler is still crazy on live at the moment for those levels (my second life L8 bard is just murdering his way through the quests. Almost every second hit is a crit, and they are BIG - its that kind of thing, and my barbarian using a tricked out Whirlwind all the way to 20 that makes me not particularly upset by the changes - but note I have no comment on the effect in epic, I simply don't play enough epic to say if these changes are a good thing or a bad thing there).

I think the changes will mean they lose one off the crit range each, but I might be wrong.

(NB Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)is another good one to put up there)

[Robai]

All hail king Balizarde!

Enjoy the nerf. Added it to the table!


Oops, hadn't spotted them. Was thinking how sky pirate's dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger) and Tiefling Assassin's blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade) combined with swashbuckly bonuses are going to turn out. Obviously these lower level weapons have 'keen' rather than IC crit on them, but that crit range on a swashbuckler is still crazy on live at the moment for those levels (my second life L8 bard is just murdering his way through the quests. Almost every second hit is a crit, and they are BIG - its that kind of thing, and my barbarian using a tricked out Whirlwind all the way to 20 that makes me not particularly upset by the changes - but note I have no comment on the effect in epic, I simply don't play enough epic to say if these changes are a good thing or a bad thing there).

I think the changes will mean they lose one off the crit range each, but I might be wrong.

(NB Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)is another good one to put up there)

All 3 weapons added!

[SynalonEtuul]

Why isn't this seen as a good thing? Haven't people been suggesting a crit range nerf for ages? Everybody recognises that DPS from crits is overpowered and needs to be re-balanced.

And it's one thing to disagree with this, but people screaming about how they're going to quit is pathetic. Grow up, seriously.

[Enoach]

Is this a Nerf or a Correction?

If the calculations of Improved Critical didn't include enhancements/buff adjustments the amounts would match better with the New method.

Personally I think this will ultimately come out better for the game. Yes, the crit range will be reduced in places, but I think this means we will see a greater diversity of abilities in the future that have to deal with threat range and possibly critical multipliers (who knows).

This is a good change in my opinion.

[Bennum]

People have been advocating nerfs since the first class pass. The forum Kool-Aid has been served and consumed. Let the cross referencing of posts of those who repeatedly demanded nerfs in the recent past to those who are now rallying against nerfs currently, begin.
That is a generalization, I didn't call for nerfs but I and other middle of the road players like me will suffer with these changes. I've just about had it with this games volatile nature, just when I start to compete in EH this happens; I won't be renewing my sub if these nerfs hit live.

[redoubt]

Is this a Nerf or a Correction?

If the calculations of Improved Critical didn't include enhancements/buff adjustments the amounts would match better with the New method.

Personally I think this will ultimately come out better for the game. Yes, the crit range will be reduced in places, but I think this means we will see a greater diversity of abilities in the future that have to deal with threat range and possibly critical multipliers (who knows).

This is a good change in my opinion.

Correcting the multiplicative affect would be a good correction. The problem lies in that the proposed change negates a chunk of the bonus from "special weapons". Things like the SOS or brush hook.

[Ellihor]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)/SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20 11-20 15-20


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20 11-20 15-20


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.
EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

You can't be serious if you think the way crits are working now on live is ok. Really, see the mutoneer's: it crits more than do normal damage. Or pally with SoS in DC: crits half of the attacks for a x4 damage. What are you thinking? These changes are only good. If you think that's right you are ashaming this community,

[Robai]

Why isn't this seen as a good thing? Haven't people been suggesting a crit range nerf for ages? Everybody recognises that DPS from crits is overpowered and needs to be re-balanced.

And it's one thing to disagree with this, but people screaming about how they're going to quit is pathetic. Grow up, seriously.

Instead of nerfing OP builds they are nerfing these things:
- Seeker
- Burst effects
- Heartseeker
- many other things that procs on crits

These changes also nerf hard earned items.

[redoubt]

You can't be serious if you think the way crits are working now on live is ok. Really, see the mutoneer's: it crits more than do normal damage. Or pally with SoS in DC: crits half of the attacks for a x4 damage. What are you thinking? These changes are only good. If you think that's right you are ashaming this community,

Nice over reaction.

I took his post as showing how it is not simply correcting the multiplicative bug in the improved critical feat. It is disproportionately affecting "special weapons".

[Robai]

You can't be serious if you think the way crits are working now on live is ok. Really, see the mutoneer's: it crits more than do normal damage. Or pally with SoS in DC: crits half of the attacks for a x4 damage. What are you thinking? These changes are only good. If you think that's right you are ashaming this community,

Criticals are fun! If the DPS is too high then lower it. I don't mind that, but let me have the fun.
Another thing is that for Undead/Constructs/Elemenetals crits are not working (without bypassing the fortification).

[Robai]

Nice over reaction.

I took his post as showing how it is not simply correcting the multiplicative bug in the improved critical feat. It is disproportionately affecting "special weapons".

Indeed, and the main thing is this: guess who gets nerfed most? (Just look at the numbers for Sireth/Epic Bone Crusher)

[Seikojin]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. The feedback from this will definitely be useful as damage numbers start rolling in and adjustments from this change are brought into being (I suspect things from lvl 29 and 30 to be the lift to get things back up (but not to this excessive level)).

[Seikojin]

Instead of nerfing OP builds they are nerfing these things:
- Seeker
- Burst effects
- Heartseeker
- many other things that procs on crits

These changes also nerf hard earned items.

Less procs on crits (due to less crits) = less lag.

[Drwaz99]

Less procs on crits (due to less crits) = less lag.

Less fun = less players = less full groups = less total server checks/calcs = less lag, too.

For every person I've seen saying "YEAH!" to this, I've seen or heard 2-3 say, eff-this. If it happens as described, peace! (All these conversation are within parties in-gmae via voice chat, some/many don't visit the forums) And when I suggested they post, most-if-not-all replied, "What's the point? They do what they want, look at the test server. It's why I don't bother with the forums."

[Nhennan]

Why isn't this seen as a good thing? Haven't people been suggesting a crit range nerf for ages? Everybody recognises that DPS from crits is overpowered and needs to be re-balanced.Easy for some to say.

I busted my freckle farming Deathnip for my current build. It took me a looooong time to farm enough shadow phlogistons from the Temple of the Deathwyrm raid for my completed thunderforged heavy pick. I've farmed/configured gear, feats, enhancements and EDs to support my build. And now I'll likely lose the hours upon hours (I don't want to count how many) I've invested? Not happy.

Does the heavy pick get good damage from crits? Hell yes! But I've sacrificed other things along the way (no glancing blows, lower base damage, no Power Attack etc). So I'm not seeing the problem.

My gear and feats etc are configured to beat Fortification to ensure I get my crits (so a further opportunity cost to increasing base damage). Should we narrow the (effective) build choice for melee DPS to two-handed weapons and simply turn on Power Attack and auto-attack?

This game rewards many different combat styles reasonably effectively (unless you are into short-manning EE stuff), which probably suits most of the players. I say leave it be.

[Robai]

Less procs on crits (due to less crits) = less lag.

I see what you mean, but don't think that this is what's causing the actual lag.
A single firewall or Otto dance, or simple arrow/bolt might be causing a lot more lag than Seeker, not to mention the things from Shiradi/Colors of the Queen/Warlock stuff, also I'm suspicious about mortal fear and other TF things.

I don't really mind the nerfs, the only sad part is that for some reason Arcobats get a lot more nerf than others.

[Grailhawk]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)/SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20




I'm sorry but unless there is a change from the + Old IC feat to the + New IC feat columns there is no nerf.

Improved Critical should have never doubled the effect of any critical threat increase other then that of the base weapon. When the u19 went live with this it was a bug we all know it was a bug and figured it would be fixed it took them way to ****ing long to fix it that's on them but none of us have any business complain about Improved Critical not doubling the effect of enhancements that increase critical threat ranger it was never supposed to do that and we all know it.

Changes from the + Old IC feat to the + New IC feat columns are nerfs and should be discuses with the dev it would be nice if they looked at these weapons and they corrected then on the weapon it self, as most of them were intended to crit more often.

[Ghoulstorm]

This is going to take a lot of the weapon diversity swash adds out, as rapier and kukri will be better than everything else again due to getting full effect from IC.

Yeah. I made my bard's tforged in short swords just to be different since they were the exact same as rapiers. Now I have to decide if I want to bother farming T3 again. The real kick in the crotch is that I've been working on etr's to try and get some done before they boost the xp requirements for them into the stratosphere with lvl 30 cap and have barely gotten to use my shiny T3. At least give us a way to break the thunderforged stuff back down and get some components back like with greensteel.

[Ellihor]

Criticals are fun! If the DPS is too high then lower it. I don't mind that, but let me have the fun

No, they are just meh when you crit every second hit.

[Ellihor]

Nice over reaction.

I took his post as showing how it is not simply correcting the multiplicative bug in the improved critical feat. It is disproportionately affecting "special weapons".

It is improved critical feat that WAS disproportionally affecting special weapons. It's now fixed. Most of these items will still be the best weapon untill lv 28 when you put your hand on TF T3. And in the case of Riftmaker, that is a lv 28 weapon, it only got better compared to TF maul.

[Robai]

No, they are just meh when you crit every second hit.

Especially if a crit comes from an Acrobat.
Nerf them more than others since Acrobats are OP and everyone is complaining about them being OP (and most rogues are acrobats atm, we need more mechanics or assasins instead).

[redoubt]

Less procs on crits (due to less crits) = less lag.

I played a moncher recently. Did not see lag associated with 10k nor manyshot.

I know the devs are saying it is there, but not all of us are seeing it in game.

[redoubt]

It is improved critical feat that WAS disproportionally affecting special weapons. It's now fixed. Most of these items will still be the best weapon untill lv 28 when you put your hand on TF T3. And in the case of Riftmaker, that is a lv 28 weapon, it only got better compared to TF maul.

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

[Lycurgus]

Why isn't this seen as a good thing? Haven't people been suggesting a crit range nerf for ages? Everybody recognises that DPS from crits is overpowered and needs to be re-balanced.

And it's one thing to disagree with this, but people screaming about how they're going to quit is pathetic. Grow up, seriously.

1. There are probably quite a few people who are getting tired of rebuilding and re-gearing when they already have the max number of heroic and epic trs they want.

2. Re-balancing is putting the cart in front of the horse when they haven't even done the initial balancing on: artificers, clerics, druids, fighters, favored souls, monks, sorcerors, or wizards.

---how can you properly re-balance melees without any clear vision of support roles? Or, do we expect players to retune their melee characters only to have to do it again when there's a caster pass and then a caster re-balancing and an overall game re-balancing and an xyz is over-performing in some random content re-balancing? In answer, see #1.

3. Turbine has a habit of leaving things unfinished. They start something and drop the ball. They're the ADHD poster child of game developers. There is certainty that this "balancing" act is going to be an abomination and screws certain classes for years to come.

So, yeah, I can see how it might get players riled up.

[unbongwah]

Oh and staff gets a little consolation in that pulverizer will now stack with the staff spec.
It's a wash for lootgen / crafted staves: Pulverizer stacks with Staff Spec; but the latter will only provide an effective +1 to crit range rather than +2 now due to Imp Crit stacking.

Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 17-20/x3 IC:B
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 IC:B -> 17-20/x3 Pulverizer

However, Sireth users will see a huge nerf, since it still doesn't work with Pulverizer:

Current: 18-20/x2 base -> 17-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 13-20/x3 IC:B
New: 18-20/x2 base -> 17-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 16-20/x3 IC:B

If you like running in DC, you'll go from 11-20/x3 to 15-20/x3. :(

Why isn't this seen as a good thing? Haven't people been suggesting a crit range nerf for ages? Everybody recognises that DPS from crits is overpowered and needs to be re-balanced.
The problem is the nerfage isn't spread evenly. Some builds, like Sireth Acrobats and certain Swashbucklers, will see a big hit to DPS due to loss of stacking crit bonuses. Ironically, barbs should see the smallest DPS hit, yet they're arguably the class everyone agrees is most OP! :rolleyes:

[EllisDee37]

You can't be serious if you think the way crits are working now on live is ok. Really, see the mutoneer's: it crits more than do normal damage. Or pally with SoS in DC: crits half of the attacks for a x4 damage. What are you thinking? These changes are only good. If you think that's right you are ashaming this community,As pointed out, swashbuckling is taking the biggest hit.

Which is odd, because the devs cited swashbuckling as the baseline. And because they cited swashbuckling as the baseline, I'd say that yes, the way swashbuckling works with crit profiles on live is okay.



Improved Critical should have never doubled the effect of any critical threat increase other then that of the base weapon. When the u19 went live with this it was a bug we all know it was a bug and figured it would be fixed it took them way to ****ing long to fix it that's on them but none of us have any business complain about Improved Critical not doubling the effect of enhancements that increase critical threat ranger it was never supposed to do that and we all know it. Again, the doubling of swashbuckling crit range bonuses right now on live plays a significant factor in what the devs consider the baseline melee dps.

[EllisDee37]

Here's how I'd like to see Improved Crit changed, originally posted here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5703614&viewfull=1#post5703614). (Now buried under an avalanche of pages.)

The idea is to base the threat expansion on the default multiplier of the base weapon type. Specifically:
x2 multiplier gets +3 range
x3 multiplier gets +2 range
x4 multiplier gets +1 range

This will keep staff and dagger builds viable and retain the weapon flexibility for swashbucklers, but won't accidentally make OP weapons like khopesh even more OP. The above rules end up with the following list:

Improved Critical:
+1 threat range to picks
+2 threat range to axes, bows, warhammers, mauls, and khopeshes
+3 threat range to all others

[Grailhawk]

Again, the doubling of swashbuckling crit range bonuses right now on live plays a significant factor in what the devs consider the baseline melee dps.

If that means they need more nerfs cool.

Regardless of it being base line it still should have never worked that way to begin with. I will concede that Swashbuckling and knife specialization were working as intended and could be modified to add +1 thread when the play also has improved critical but I doubt you can get me to agree to any other kind of change. Improved critical should only double the base weapon profile nothing else.

[EllisDee37]

Regardless of it being base line it still should have never worked that way to begin with. I will concede that Swashbuckling and knife specialization were working as intendedAlso Staff Specialization.

Those could also be fixed by doubling their range bonuses.

[Grailhawk]

Also Staff Specialization.

Those could also be fixed by doubling their range bonuses.

Staff Specialization is different. Knife and Swashbuckling go out of there way to make all weapons they effect a 15-20/x3 (which residuals in its own right but i digress) base crit profile Staff Specialization is just like holy sword and Ranger crit bonus it gives a +1. Was the intent to make staffs THF 17-20/x3 base maybe but its not as clear and most staffs can make it up by using Pulverizer now so I don't see the need to give it a pass.

[IronClan]

The improved crit feat nerf is unecessary in the extreme, and just takes a huge bathroom break all over some weapon types. While at the same time making the already optimal weapon choices even more optimal.

If you use a Blunt weapon: welcome to LD your new only choice for Destiny.

Hope you enjoy the new DDO where choices are made so obvious that they might as well make them for you.

[IronClan]

most staffs can make it up by using Pulverizer now so I don't see the need to give it a pass.

See^ hey as long as we have one choice, then at least we have a choice ... that's the only one...

Wait is it still a choice if it's the only one worth picking?

*sniff sniff* Smells like NGE in here...

[redoubt]

*sniff sniff* Smells like NGE in here...

*sniff sniff*

hmmm.... a little bit. NGE is why I'm playing DDO... my whole guild bailed. I played one last time the night before, logged off and never went back. (Though I have played on the EMU servers some.)

[Grailhawk]

The improved crit feat nerf is unecessary in the extreme, and just takes a huge bathroom break all over some weapon types. While at the same time making the already optimal weapon choices even more optimal.

If you use a Blunt weapon: welcome to LD your new only choice for Destiny.

Hope you enjoy the new DDO where choices are made so obvious that they might as well make them for you.

Crit profiles have been inflated since U19, IC did not double enhancment crit threat extension befor U19 and should not have after. As far as I'm concerned this is a a much needed bug fix.

[mobilemuppet]

Overpowered, underpowered I don't care.
What I do care about is spending years farming items as well as mats such as TF ings just to watch my TF hand axe get nerfed.
I have not got the time or resources to have to create new weapons after spending over a year grinding to get 1 finished item.
Just do stuff right first time and stop f#@£king things up for the majority who are non power gamers .

Losing the will to keep playing as it's change,nerf after change nerf......

[Darkmits]

Criticals are funWhat's more fun is seeing that high damage once in a while. If you see it every third hit, that's not fun, that's expected. If you have 30% crit chance and you get an unlucky streak of 10 non-crits, the average expected reaction is that the game hates you and that reduces your fun. Crit chances MUST be low or else they are not a "woohoo, a crit!" moment, but instead every non-crit moment feels like an intentional penalty against you.

I'd rather see crit chances reduced to <10% and have all damage increased to compensate than have 60% normal and 40% crit.

[AbyssalMage]

Crit profiles have been inflated since U19, IC did not double enhancment crit threat extension befor U19 and should not have after. As far as I'm concerned this is a a much needed bug fix.
So what you are saying, and what should have been done, is that they fixed the formula (order of operations). Instead, the nerfed a **** ton of items and you are fine with it. This is why I can't understand your logic, or anyone else. Everyone here, the sane ones on the forums at least, would have been totally understanding if they had just fixed the formula (order of operations).

[Oxarhamar]

Crit profiles have been inflated since U19, IC did not double enhancment crit threat extension befor U19 and should not have after. As far as I'm concerned this is a a much needed bug fix.

should have fixed it doubling the enhancements not nerfed the weapons.

[unbongwah]

Crit profiles have been inflated since U19, IC did not double enhancment crit threat extension befor U19 and should not have after. As far as I'm concerned this is a a much needed bug fix.
U19 was over two years ago. Whether the crit stacking was WAI is irrelevant at this point; it established what's now considered "normal" DPS for most people. And has been repeatedly demonstrated, the proposed change to Improved Crit will not nerf all builds equally; some builds take a huge hit to their DPS while others are barely affected. Worst-case scenario: losing more than half your crit range (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704044&viewfull=1#post5704044). I admit that's an extreme outlier which probably no one has actually done, but it highlights the huge disparity in how this nerf will be applied. As I've said before, pure barbs should lose the least DPS, which I find ironic considering they are supposedly the most OP class which "needed" to be nerfed. :rolleyes:

[Ellihor]

As pointed out, swashbuckling is taking the biggest hit.

Which is odd, because the devs cited swashbuckling as the baseline. And because they cited swashbuckling as the baseline, I'd say that yes, the way swashbuckling works with crit profiles on live is okay.

Again, the doubling of swashbuckling crit range bonuses right now on live plays a significant factor in what the devs consider the baseline melee dps.

Wrong. Swashbuckling is untouched if you use rapiers. Not like there was anyone using shortswords... Anyways, they already sad they are going to look at how swashs affects other weapons.

[Paleus]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

Why do you conclude that it is applying incorrectly? You flat out state, yes it is a better crit range than other bows. But it should be better-er than other bows? They still are better, they just aren't going to be multiples of better than other bows. To be incorrect, we need to assume that the default assumption is that certain special weapons should be better by a certain specified margin, seems that this change assumes a different margin than some would like. So, what should that margin of difference be?

[Ellihor]

Especially if a crit comes from an Acrobat.
Nerf them more than others since Acrobats are OP and everyone is complaining about them being OP (and most rogues are acrobats atm, we need more mechanics or assasins instead).

Unless you are using a Sireth, nothing changed. And Sireth is not top tier staff for a while already at cap. For lowers levels, isn't it good that it's no longer use that one weapon or go home? When one weapon is completly dominating a scence, there's something wrong.

[Ellihor]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

They are still better, just not twice as better. SoS will still dominate 20-27, so will Pinion and Needle. Silver longbow is still very good for that level (not that anyone uses bows at the lv but jsut saying).

[Grailhawk]

So what you are saying, and what should have been done, is that they fixed the formula (order of operations). Instead, the nerfed a **** ton of items and you are fine with it. This is why I can't understand your logic, or anyone else. Everyone here, the sane ones on the forums at least, would have been totally understanding if they had just fixed the formula (order of operations).


should have fixed it doubling the enhancements not nerfed the weapons.

That would be the better solution. But the current implementation of crit threat increases are weapons buffs they change the actual weapon this means that Improved Critical doubles there value so the devs have to chose between changing all crit threat increase enhancements/effects or changing Improved Critical. They should have changed all the enhancements/effects but that would take more work/time than changing Improved Critical It makes sense to change Improved Critical form cost benefits point of view, IMO.

[Grailhawk]

U19 was over two years ago. Whether the crit stacking was WAI is irrelevant at this point; it established what's now considered "normal" DPS for most people. And has been repeatedly demonstrated, the proposed change to Improved Crit will not nerf all builds equally; some builds take a huge hit to their DPS while others are barely affected. Worst-case scenario: losing more than half your crit range (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704044&viewfull=1#post5704044). I admit that's an extreme outlier which probably no one has actually done, but it highlights the huge disparity in how this nerf will be applied. As I've said before, pure barbs should lose the least DPS, which I find ironic considering they are supposedly the most OP class which "needed" to be nerfed. :rolleyes:

So you are saying that you think wolf form druids should not be changed because they have been left in the game forever? (Not an exact apples to apples comparison but very close)

A nerf does not have to effect all builds equally in order to create balance it makes sense that builds that are less reliant on crit profile would not be hit as hard. That said if this means other nerfs are needed lets do it.

Pure Barb is op because the class has to much staying power compared to its DPS the 1 second delay on Blood Strength's on kill healing will be very noticeable in that regard, and is the appropriate place to nerf Barbarian. If they are still God Mode when this change is completed then adding to the delay or reducing the healing amp the class has is the correct solution.

[ArekDorun]

I discussed this change/nerf/fix a bit with a few of my guildmates last night. What I took away from that discussion is this: Unless you have a weapon with an increased crit profile or an ability that increases your crit range, this nerf has no effect on you. Furthermore, one of these people - one of the biggest min-maxers I know - basically said "it's about time" and believe it or not, I agree with him. So, instead of screaming about this, see if you can rebuild your character on Lam when it comes up and go run a quest or 3 to see whether or not the DPS nerf is going to warrant refactoring your toon. Personally, I wouldn't refactor based on my clear times on EEs going from 8 minutes to 10 minutes, but that's me (it would take a much larger difference or even the inability to clear quests reliably due to too-low damage to make me refactor a toon I wasn't gonna refactor anyway).

Not everyone is against this change, folks. In fact, imo, it helps balance things - those weapons and abilities that are affected were very OP in some cases (look at Carnifex). And I also agree with an earlier reply: It could result in better weapons dropping in the future (maybe Epic Green Steel will have an option that increases crit range and stacks with Keen/IC?).

--ArekDorun

[Kuttamia]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)/SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.
EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

the nerfs didnt kick in yet, rush to cap and tr

[Enoach]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

I don't think they failed to take in account these special weapons, I think what this change is doing is now counting the weapons bonus at the same level as the enhancements/buffs. This removes all of these bonus types from being doubled.

Doing this also opens up Turbine development to adding more bonus type critical range effects or even more special weapons with extended critical range outside of keen without having to worry about builds that can use them and have a critical on a 2. Under the current system builds are getting nearly 50% critical hits. Depending on Weapon and other adjustments builds that have these features will lose between 5% and 15% of their critical hits (Again depending on what gear they are using and the enhancements/buffs).

Critical damage use to be an "Ah" moment. Now non-critical hits are viewed as a poor roll.

[FestusHood]

Why do you conclude that it is applying incorrectly? You flat out state, yes it is a better crit range than other bows. But it should be better-er than other bows? They still are better, they just aren't going to be multiples of better than other bows. To be incorrect, we need to assume that the default assumption is that certain special weapons should be better by a certain specified margin, seems that this change assumes a different margin than some would like. So, what should that margin of difference be?

One standard could be how they worked before the enhancement pass. The silver longbow has been around a long time, back before anybody thought they were overpowered. Improved critical gave them a range of 17-20 x 3. You could make the same argument for caught in the web weapons. Those were designed before the enhancment pass, or any of the later trend of giving everybody crit profile enhancements. The designers of these weapons were certainly aware that their critical threat ranges would be doubled by the improved critical feat. This was absolutely wai.

On the other hand, you can make the argument that because virtually all classes are using crit profile extensions via class/ed abilities now, they can more than make up the difference. An archer using a longbow after the new ic changes will be able to make the silver longbow 17-20 x4, so still better than the people who designed it ever thought it would be.

Staff users do seem to be the worst hit. That's probably because named staffs, along with only a couple other weapons, distort the base weapon profile by the greatest amount. In the original enhancement pass, you get the impression that the weapon types that were receiving crit profile improvements via class were the ones that were among the worst in their base forms. Base staff is 20x2, which is the absolute worst possible critical profile there is in the game. I wonder if they were assuming at the time they put these in that all staff users would be using Sireth.

I do think they should modify a couple of the enhancements after these changes. As has been pointed out, while Sireth is enormously distorted from the base crit profile of a quarterstaff, it's still only 18-20 x2, same as a khopesh, rapier, scimitar. It doesn't seem too overpowered that it should be able to reach that same overall crit profile.

On the other hand, (yes, i have three) acrobats also get 25% stacking alacrity, and easy to maintain 45% doublestrike form their tree, so maybe those were put in with the thought of compensating for the base form being such a lame weapon. From what i'm told in the other thread, rogues will also become the best defensive class in the game, as they have evasion, and that will become much better than anything you can get from heavier armor, right?

[unbongwah]

So you are saying that you think wolf form druids should not be changed because they have been left in the game forever?
No, I've been calling for druid forms to be fixed / buffed for a long time now. It's ridiculous that you have to deliberately exploit bugs to have a viable wolf build.

A nerf does not have to effect all builds equally in order to create balance it makes sense that builds that are less reliant on crit profile would not be hit as hard.
True, but when I said Swashies are the baseline, I wasn't pulling that out of my hat, I was quoting what Sev said in the original thread:

Our current measure of melee effectiveness is Swashbuckler. Classes like Bard and Paladin have good spells, and strong class abilities. They can expect, if they build entirely towards melee, to deal out good melee DPS. Barbarian, Rogue and Ranger's basic class abilities aren't quite as strong, so characters built entirely toward melee will do a little more DPS. Fighter has very little basic class utility (their competitive advantage is extra feats, and they run out of strong feats) so we have our work cut out for us to balance fighters.

(Our only complaint about Swashbuckler is that Coup de Grace is too easy to pull off for a Bard, and it makes the ability really good for a class with great magical mitigation and Crowd Control. That's fairly low on our list of concerns, though, and Bard builds aren't dominating the playing field. It's more of a design nitpick.)

Swashbuckler was already finished when I came aboard, and it was very popular. We decided that other than some bugs revolving around Single Weapon Fighting that Swashbuckler would be the default level of power we would strive for with our passes. Part of it was that it gave melee equal footing with the Manyshot ranged builds and casters, and part of it was that players felt at the time that melee was not competitive.
[emphasis mine]

This is presumably based on how Swashies perform in-game now. The problem is the proposed crit changes won't affect all Swashbucklers equally. If you currently use a rapier or kukri, you'll be fine; but every other Swashbuckling weapon is going to take a hit to their crit profile, somewhere between -5% and -30% crit chance, due to the loss of stacking crit range bonuses. This is going to reduce build diversity, not increase it, as every Swashie scrambles to switch to rapiers. This would be really unfortunate, not just because of all the time it takes to re-farm weapons, but because Swashbuckling made a lot of otherwise-mediocre named weapons that everyone ignored into viable options. Assassins are facing the same issue, where daggers drop to 16-20/x4 while kukris remain 15-20/x4. It's why I suggested doubling certain crit range bonuses (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704781&viewfull=1#post5704781) so that those weapons stay competitive.

[FestusHood]

Unless you are using a Sireth, nothing changed. And Sireth is not top tier staff for a while already at cap. For lowers levels, isn't it good that it's no longer use that one weapon or go home? When one weapon is completly dominating a scence, there's something wrong.

Sireth isn't the only one, i'm not even sure it's the best one. There are tons of named staves with unusual crit profiles, more than any other weapon i think. I have seen the math guys say that needle is still better than thunderforged in most cases.
Given how terrible base staff crits are, i'm not at all sure that thunderforged was always better.

[FestusHood]

I don't think they failed to take in account these special weapons, I think what this change is doing is now counting the weapons bonus at the same level as the enhancements/buffs. This removes all of these bonus types from being doubled.

Doing this also opens up Turbine development to adding more bonus type critical range effects or even more special weapons with extended critical range outside of keen without having to worry about builds that can use them and have a critical on a 2. Under the current system builds are getting nearly 50% critical hits. Depending on Weapon and other adjustments builds that have these features will lose between 5% and 15% of their critical hits (Again depending on what gear they are using and the enhancements/buffs).

Critical damage use to be an "Ah" moment. Now non-critical hits are viewed as a poor roll.

I think that's exactly what they are thinking. I don't know if it's a good idea, but i'm sure they were aware of it. Last night i explained the changes to somebody just as you did. IC will no longer double crit extensions, no matter what their source, enhancement or base weapon.

When the developers designed Sireth, i'm guessing they never expected the crit profile to be further improved upon. That was meant to be the be all and end all of critting quarterstaves.

[Oxarhamar]

That would be the better solution. But the current implementation of crit threat increases are weapons buffs they change the actual weapon this means that Improved Critical doubles there value so the devs have to chose between changing all crit threat increase enhancements/effects or changing Improved Critical. They should have changed all the enhancements/effects but that would take more work/time than changing Improved Critical It makes sense to change Improved Critical form cost benefits point of view, IMO.

I agree they took the path of least resistance to minimize Dev time/resources however, I feel the Nerf to specialized weapons (Deathnip etc) is a mistake.

[Gremmlynn]

1. There are probably quite a few people who are getting tired of rebuilding and re-gearing when they already have the max number of heroic and epic trs they want.

2. Re-balancing is putting the cart in front of the horse when they haven't even done the initial balancing on: artificers, clerics, druids, fighters, favored souls, monks, sorcerors, or wizards.

---how can you properly re-balance melees without any clear vision of support roles? Or, do we expect players to retune their melee characters only to have to do it again when there's a caster pass and then a caster re-balancing and an overall game re-balancing and an xyz is over-performing in some random content re-balancing? In answer, see #1.

3. Turbine has a habit of leaving things unfinished. They start something and drop the ball. They're the ADHD poster child of game developers. There is certainty that this "balancing" act is going to be an abomination and screws certain classes for years to come.

So, yeah, I can see how it might get players riled up.It's that rebuilding and re-gearing that likely prompts the re-balancing as players go to and thus point out the next thing that is out of balance.

While following certain players around isn't the most efficient way to find the kinks in the game, it's not all that unbelievable considering the primitive mechanics systems they inherited from D&D.

[Oxarhamar]

No, I've been calling for druid forms to be fixed / buffed for a long time now. It's ridiculous that you have to deliberately exploit bugs to have a viable wolf build.

True, but when I said Swashies are the baseline, I wasn't pulling that out of my hat, I was quoting what Sev said in the original thread:

[emphasis mine]

This is presumably based on how Swashies perform in-game now. The problem is the proposed crit changes won't affect all Swashbucklers equally. If you currently use a rapier or kukri, you'll be fine; but every other Swashbuckling weapon is going to take a hit to their crit profile, somewhere between -5% and -30% crit chance, due to the loss of stacking crit range bonuses. This is going to reduce build diversity, not increase it, as every Swashie scrambles to switch to rapiers. This would be really unfortunate, not just because of all the time it takes to re-farm weapons, but because Swashbuckling made a lot of otherwise-mediocre named weapons that everyone ignored into viable options. Assassins are facing the same issue, where daggers drop to 16-20/x4 while kukris remain 15-20/x4. It's why I suggested doubling certain crit range bonuses (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704781&viewfull=1#post5704781) so that those weapons stay competitive.

I agree, the changes will bring less build diversity not more & that is a fail in my book even if it did bring more balance.

[Ellihor]

Sireth isn't the only one, i'm not even sure it's the best one. There are tons of named staves with unusual crit profiles, more than any other weapon i think. I have seen the math guys say that needle is still better than thunderforged in most cases.
Given how terrible base staff crits are, i'm not at all sure that thunderforged was always better.

Basically a proc that does 2.5% of mob hp every hit makes them superior to anything, and that's on an item that is already have the best proc damage out there without it.

[Lord_Jaffacake]

I agree, the changes will bring less build diversity not more & that is a fail in my book even if it did bring more balance.

I agree and if they aren't careful this will result in lost profits from fed up people. I believe if they are focusing on balancing right now they should also really include spell DC changes and monster saves in this.

[unbongwah]

For those not following the Balance Change thread and its bazillion posts, just want to quote two things in Sev's latest post:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.
Hopefully this means Turbine is finally following my advice (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704781&viewfull=1#post5704781). It's about time! :cool:

~ We have been reading with interest the concerns with named weapons that have increased threat ranges built in and how they interact with Improved Critical. This interaction is part of the design, as these threat ranges provided too much benefit previously. The fact that some of these weapons with lower level requirements were better than end game weapons highlights the problem fairly well.
Disappointed that the nerf to named weapons with expanded crit ranges is deliberate, but not totally surprised. Again, I think this is going to reduce weapon diversity because some weapons will be less attractive than they are now, but oh well...

[I realize eSOS fans are up in arms, but relax, eSOS will still be top dog among ML:20 weapons (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5705053&viewfull=1#post5705053).]

[Saekee]

For those not following the Balance Change thread and its bazillion posts, just want to quote two things in Sev's latest post:

Hopefully this means Turbine is finally following my advice (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5704781&viewfull=1#post5704781). It's about time! :cool:

Disappointed that the nerf to named weapons with expanded crit ranges is deliberate, but not totally surprised. Again, I think this is going to reduce weapon diversity because some weapons will be less attractive than they are now, but oh well...

[I realize eSOS fans are up in arms, but relax, eSOS will still be top dog among ML:20 weapons (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466433-The-Balance-Change-post?p=5705053&viewfull=1#post5705053).]

Good suggestions!

[LightBear]

Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 Swashbuckler bonus + Old IC
+1 Swashbuckler + New IC
+2 Rage + Old IC
+2 Rage + New IC
+1 Celestial Champion +1 Swashbuckler +2 Rage + Old IC
+1 Celestial Champion +1 Swashbuckler +2 Rage + New IC


Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)

18-20
15-20
16-20
13-20
15-20
13-20
15-20
07-20
11-20 (Might even be 13-20?)










Rebellion would now be 07-20*3 | 2.50[1d8] + 8 = 60.32 Base
Deathnip would now be 13-20*5 | 1.50[1d6] + 5 = 34.85 Base

Even with moving the stats around the Rebellion stays ahead of Deathnip.

[FestusHood]

Basically a proc that does 2.5% of mob hp every hit makes them superior to anything, and that's on an item that is already have the best proc damage out there without it.

Trying to figure out the comparison math makes my head hurt. Let's say a sireth is doing 40% more damage from crits than a base staff. That seems about right, it should be 16 to 8 crit power.

If you have to hit the monster 20 times to kill it with dps, if mf procs on the first hit it would do 50%, and if it procs on the last hit it would do 0 because the monster would be dead from dps. In this scenario the average proc amount would be 25% of the monster hit points. If the Sireth is doing 40% more base damage than the regular quarterstaff, it seems like, on average, you would need less hits to kill it. But i'm no mathematician, and i might be completely wrong.

[Tebaco]

It took me a looooong time to farm enough shadow phlogistons from the Temple of the Deathwyrm raid for my completed thunderforged heavy pick. I've farmed/configured gear, feats, enhancements and EDs to support my build. And now I'll likely lose the hours upon hours (I don't want to count how many) I've invested? Not happy.



As Nhennan said. Other said that this is fix feat bug.
I think both have right and devs should do something more than just fix old feat.

My propose is add deconstruction option fot thunder forged crafting device. And let ppl get 75-100% material back.

Lets see how this affect game.

[Nightmanis]

So do I get crit range enhancements to unarmed now? Or am I still SOL?

[Ellihor]

Trying to figure out the comparison math makes my head hurt. Let's say a sireth is doing 40% more damage from crits than a base staff. That seems about right, it should be 16 to 8 crit power.

If you have to hit the monster 20 times to kill it with dps, if mf procs on the first hit it would do 50%, and if it procs on the last hit it would do 0 because the monster would be dead from dps. In this scenario the average proc amount would be 25% of the monster hit points. If the Sireth is doing 40% more base damage than the regular quarterstaff, it seems like, on average, you would need less hits to kill it. But i'm no mathematician, and i might be completely wrong.

I prefer to keep it simple. Say you do about 400 damage per swing including procs etc (I really have no idea how staff builds are doing). But, to keep it simple let's assume that's right. So if MF procced on your last hit it would be at x = x/2 + 400, x = 800. That mens the minimal damage mortal fear could do is 400. And it has a 5% chance to happen. So the minimal average damage is 20. Monsters have about 12k starting. The average damage you get from MF in the first hit is 300. Obviously no weapon can make up that difference.

On these conditions, if you are 2 hits from killing the monster, MF would proc at x = x/2 + 800, x = 1600. That's 2 hits from killing the monster, not assuming crits. If Mortal Fear doesn't proc, it would be 4 hits. Mortal fear would do on average 40 points of damage. When you add the base damage and the other procs TF (1st degree curse, 1st degree fire, dragon edge, dragon edge bleed, and 36 average force damage proc from MF, and one red augment more) + higher enhancement bonus compared to Sireth and + base damage, already have it is clear that there is no weapon that can come close to it on these conditions already. Now think about 3 hits before kill, 4 hits... the first hit you do.

I did considering 400 damage per swing. I belive you are doing much more, and you also have to put criticals in the math. When you consider that, it changes even more in favor of the TF, because the hp the monster will have on the last hit will be higher, what means MF will do more damage on average, counting the full hp spectrum.

[EllisDee37]

Unless you are using a Sireth, nothing changed. And Sireth is not top tier staff for a while already at cap. For lowers levels, isn't it good that it's no longer use that one weapon or go home? When one weapon is completly dominating a scence, there's something wrong.Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.


(I really have no idea how staff builds are doing)Maybe don't talk about staff builds if you don't have any idea about staff builds?

[morkahn82]

it is absolutely plausible that weapons get nerfed/boosted every 3-6 months so that everyone has to run 30 thunderholme raids again to revitalize those raids.

[LightBear]

Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

Maybe don't talk about staff builds if you don't have any idea about staff builds?

I always liked walking around with a staff, during a lot of past lives I was able to multi class it in.
Either rogue or monk and sometimes both.
I think I will continue to do just that.

The thing with these sticks is that just about any class can pick em up.

[Robai]

Added Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion) since it was mentioned in this thread.

Just remembered how special are Drow weapons. I mean the main bonus of drow weapons is improved crit range and that was keeping in mind that IC feat will double it. But now those weapons will be much less special.
Added Drow Quarterstaff (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Quarterstaff_of_the_Weapon_Master) and Drow Rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master) to the table.


The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.


This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

I agree that currently IC feat does the job too well, but I STRONGLY disagree about nerfing the special items, for which we've spent a lot of time farming.
Please, if you going to fix it then do it the right way, without messing up other things.
If there are some technical difficulties then just don't nerf IC feat for now (until you find a way to do it the correct way).

EDIT.
Note that the proposed balance pass also doubles base crit range (ex, for mauls 19-20 instead of 20-20, for rapiers 15-20 instead of 18-20, etc.), but it doesn't increase range bonus on the special items (i.e. exactly this part is a nerf of such items)

EDIT 2:

Keep in mind that if you require the feat, keen weapons stop working for such classes, which continues the same issue.

Keen is supposed to be a legitimate alternative to taking the feat, but it sounds like the feat will be strictly required for knife builds and any swashbuckler who doesn't use rapiers, even if the only weapons they use are keen/impact.

Also a reminder that staff builds should be added to the list of assassin and swashbuckler as one of the weapon styles that was designed and balanced around the way IC and Impact works with staff specialization. Staff builds are not OP and do not need to be nerfed, but based on everything you guys have said so far staff builds will be getting heavily nerfed.

And finally, don't nerf Carnifex. It's an iconic named item that should stay the same 17-20x3 it's been for years and years.
Very good points!
If they nerf IC feat the correct way (as described above) then Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex) would remain untouched. I mean Keen should also be nerfed the correct way, in fact, it should do what the description of it says, so that it should double only the base crit range (some special weapons have expanded base crit range), other bonuses to crit range should not be doubled:

http://ddowiki.com/images/Carnifex.png

[Enderoc]

Totally not cool to make the feat respond differently to which weapon you are using. It should be uniform for all weapons, especially since I do not see anything for bows or handwraps.

[Yendor_the_pokermage]

Yes, crit multipliers are goin down across the bored virtually and those that arnt like repeaters have dblshot being adjusted. people will see lower numbers.

but isn't that a good thing?

cmon things were totally getting out of hand, those weapons with expanded crit range will still have a higher crit range.


And its the devs response to all the best builds being build around crit range.

Its the main culprit in leading us to this.

Ok say they don't do anything and soon we would be seeing such silly numbers, the content would have to be built around those #'s.

OMG it would get worse then it is now.


Give them a chance.


But Dev's get the rest of the badly needed changes on the way quickly please, these same nerfed builds are still better then whats been lagging behind.

Divine's, Arti tree's, Monks, Specifically Turn Undead, some obsolete feats need a refresher, add new spells and update spells that are never used.

Open up any toon who takes dragonmark feat can train to use there innate ability better with training and whatever race they are taking the dragonmark feat opens ups meta-magics to take if applicable.


You've taken away MRR from the average armour. add in Loot that specifically has MRR so players have a chance to gear back some of what they lost.


Overall I'm happy with the changes, yes some of them will hurt but better to balance now before it gets even worse.


Please do a good and expedient job, and I'm very happy Sev and all the dev's have been so open the lines of communication seems to have really improved, wish I could say the same of our player's counsel.

Thou to be fair its how its set up and its mandate and how it operates I'm not happy with. Cause I'm sure with better player input all along we wouldn't have come close to where we are with this "Balance Pass".

[Robai]

Added Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex).

[Robai]

oops, double post

[Trillea]

Even though it's probably the same numerically as Sireth, you may want to add the Skullsmasher because it is one of the weapons getting hit hardest by this nerf unless they change Swashbuckler somehow.

[Kompera_Oberon]

For those not following the Balance Change thread and its bazillion posts, just want to quote two things in Sev's latest post:

~ The changes to Improved Critical do mess up the balance for Assassins between kukri and daggers, and for Swashbucklers who can take enhancements to normalize weapon types. We are going to implement additional changes so that characters who have the Improved Critical feat will gain extra threat range for under performing weapons to maintain the weapon balance you have live using these builds.
The problem with this promise is that what is essentially saying is: We know that we're introducing new issues with this set of changes. But never fear! We'll fix it all later!

Their track record of fixing things later is not a good one. Just look at all the long standing bugs which exist in the game today if you don't believe me. They make a change, it introduces issues, and rather than fixing those issues they go "ooh, shiny!" and run after some new set of changes which introduce their own set of issues which also never get addressed. It is a long and well documented history. The only time they really go back and fix something is when it has a huge impact on play, such as the changes they made to reduce lag in the DotJ raid. All the "little issues" are just ignored by the devs and allowed to pile up and up, and they have piled up and up for so long that they are now at that tipping point where they are, together, having a huge impact on play.

[Ellihor]

Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

Stout Oak has not changed. The others had a broken critical profile and it's now being adressed (by broken I don't want to say it was bugged). Criting on a 15 for x4 is NOT normal. If you think it is, I can't talk to you.


Maybe don't talk about staff builds if you don't have any idea about staff builds?

I'm talking about criticals, and I understand about those. And you are showing you don't.

[IronClan]

Stout Oak has not changed. The others had a broken critical profile and it's now being adressed (by broken I don't want to say it was bugged). Criting on a 15 for x4 is NOT normal. If you think it is, I can't talk to you.



I'm talking about criticals, and I understand about those. And you are showing you don't.

Stout Oak appears to be changed, I agree with Ellis. Broken? they were designed that way to give named items some uniquness and fun.

Stout Oak with Staff specialization and IC:blunt is 17-20X4

After nerf it should be 18-20X4 (assuming the new implementation of Keen and staff specialization work as described I've not tested this specific case and we all know the record for putting new systems in and them working as expected).

Critting on a 15 for X4 is fun, critting less makes the mobs particularly EE mobs feel like sawing down trees with hand saws especially when you're one on one with one of the games famous 9,000hp kobolds... Especially when you've elected to use a named weapon for primary damage over a Thunderforged weapon for mortal fear and proc damage. These changes just push everything towards mortal fear being even more dominant.

I've played a lot of builds there are certain common denominators for the ones that are the most fun fluid and playable. 17 is about the lowest I ever want to crit at. Lower crit ranges make a build play slow and clunky.

19-20 builds like Frenzy Barb are not much fun despite critting for very large numbers, mainly because the crits are so few and far between. It often feels as though I'm waiting for that crit and this makes combat drag on.

I have the same problem with Fighter Vanguard, it plays poorly because it's got 10% less crit range and those shield bashes are only really notable when they crit, they are totally meh otherwise.

To me these changes in addition to creating a bunch of problems with common every days builds is just stepping the game back into a "meh" direction. I don't want more meh... And in fact I suspect most of the actual player base doesn't want more meh. It's a few dedicated theorycrafters who play the Forum version of DDO who seem to be the most concerned with "balance" and "power creep".

So have fun with your increased meh, hope you enjoy it, I hope it helps to know intellectually that less crits was the right thing to do in your opinion, when less players are logging in because MORE MEH = Less players

[Trillea]

I have made a suggestion for a change to the Imp Crit nerf here (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/466654-Suggestion-for-alternate-nerf-to-Imp-Crit)

[EllisDee37]

The others had a broken critical profileNo, they didn't. Staffs need the better crit profile to make them worth using. If they have the same crit profile as any other weapon, the other weapon is clearly superior.

[Kompera_Oberon]

And its the devs response to all the best builds being build around crit range.

And those builds are the player's response to the game the devs made. Don't blame the players for working within the system to find what works best for them.

Now the devs want to go chase their tails by reversing themselves instead of fixing the very many long standing issues already in the game and they could give a **** about the player base or the game. They just want to chase the new shiny while ignoring the pile of tarnish already in need of a shiny polish.

[Grace_ana]

The problem with this promise is that what is essentially saying is: We know that we're introducing new issues with this set of changes. But never fear! We'll fix it all later!

Their track record of fixing things later is not a good one. Just look at all the long standing bugs which exist in the game today if you don't believe me. They make a change, it introduces issues, and rather than fixing those issues they go "ooh, shiny!" and run after some new set of changes which introduce their own set of issues which also never get addressed. It is a long and well documented history. The only time they really go back and fix something is when it has a huge impact on play, such as the changes they made to reduce lag in the DotJ raid. All the "little issues" are just ignored by the devs and allowed to pile up and up, and they have piled up and up for so long that they are now at that tipping point where they are, together, having a huge impact on play.

Not only that, but what precisely are we to do with our characters until they get around to fixing it?

[unbongwah]

Staffs need the better crit profile to make them worth using. If they have the same crit profile as any other weapon, the other weapon is clearly superior.
Pure Acrobats still get +20% atk speed, +20% base doublestrike, and Quick Strike (effectively another +16.7% doublestrike) compared to regular 2H weapons. Now that Pulverizer stacks w/Staff Spec, an LD Acro using crafted staves will still have 17-20/x3 crit profile; Stoat Oak is 17-20/x4. Despite the crit nerf to some of the named staves (inc. my Sireth), I'm not worried about Acrobat DPS.

My pally staff build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449801-The-Hozoin-Kyuu-A-Pally-Staff-amp-Bow-Build) will be ITRing sooner rather than later, though. :( I was already feeling envious of pure Acrobats' extra +10% doublestrike (vs Zeal) and sneak atks; now that Manyshot is being nerfed too, my burst ranged DPS option is losing its appeal. Might as well switch to a pure Acrobat.

[Tinari]

Not only that, but what precisely are we to do with our characters until they get around to fixing it?

... keep playing?

That's what I'm doing with my character. Was this a serious question?

[Robai]

Even though it's probably the same numerically as Sireth, you may want to add the Skullsmasher because it is one of the weapons getting hit hardest by this nerf unless they change Swashbuckler somehow.

Done!
It doesn't look like Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher) is getting a big nerf since in comparison table I included only up to +2 bonus to crit range, but in Swashbukler you can have quite high crit ranges (I'm not sure what's doubled there by IC feat).


Pure Acrobats still get +20% atk speed, +20% base doublestrike, and Quick Strike (effectively another +16.7% doublestrike) compared to regular 2H weapons. Now that Pulverizer stacks w/Staff Spec, an LD Acro using crafted staves will still have 17-20/x3 crit profile; Stoat Oak is 17-20/x4. Despite the crit nerf to some of the named staves (inc. my Sireth), I'm not worried about Acrobat DPS.

My pally staff build (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449801-The-Hozoin-Kyuu-A-Pally-Staff-amp-Bow-Build) will be ITRing sooner rather than later, though. :( I was already feeling envious of pure Acrobats' extra +10% doublestrike (vs Zeal) and sneak atks; now that Manyshot is being nerfed too, my burst ranged DPS option is losing its appeal. Might as well switch to a pure Acrobat.

Don't forget that pure Acrobats have to melee in Light armor. So the dps will be lowered by the time spent on heals, displacement, avoiding larger groups of mobs, etc.

[Jetrule]

I hope the two named staffs hardest hit get some attention. This is as drastic a power decrease for them as anything swashbuckler has to deal with.

[Grace_ana]

... keep playing?

That's what I'm doing with my character. Was this a serious question?

Yes, it's a serious question. Some classes are losing up to a quarter of their DPS. Others are losing around 12-15%. This is enough that, for several classes, you can't kill things fast enough before they kill you. It makes it rather difficult to play. You probably won't see it in heroics as much, or on epic normal. But some epic hard (depending on the toon, past lives, gear, class, etc.) and certainly epic elite will be unplayable for many toons.

[Thrudh]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)/SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Drow Quarterstaff (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Quarterstaff_of_the_Weapon_Master)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Drow Rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

EDIT 3:
The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.
This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

Wow, these changes look great... It looks like the devs are doing a very good job BALANCING weapons... Good job OP pointing out how broken the crit ranges were before the proposed BALANCE change... 9-20 crit range? Hah! That's just stupid.

I'm very happy with the changes, devs.

[Powerhungry]

The crit range NERF worries me a lot.



This is what is going to happen (crit multipliers aren't included since they're not changing):



Weapon
Base crit range
+ Old IC feat
+ New IC feat
+1 range bonus + Old IC
+1 range bonus + New IC
+2 range bonus + Old IC
+2 range bonus + New IC


ESoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Sword_of_Shadow)/SoS (http://ddowiki.com/page/Sword_of_Shadow)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sireth (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sireth,_Spear_of_the_Sky)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Bone_Crusher)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Bone Crusher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Bone_Crusher)
18-20 15-20 17-20 (nerfed by 2) 13-20 16-20 (nerfed by 3) 11-20 15-20 (nerfed by 4)


Needle (http://ddowiki.com/page/Needle)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Pinion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Pinion,_Cloud-piercer)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Epic Riftmaker (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Riftmaker)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20


Epic Assassin's Kiss (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Assassin%27s_Kiss)
19-20 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Deathnip (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Deathnip)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 15-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20


Tiefling Assassin's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Tiefling_Assassin%27s_Blade)
18-20 (w/o Keen) 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Sky Pirate's Dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Sky_Pirate%27s_Dagger)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 17-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20


Whirlwind (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Whirlwind)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Rebellion)
18-20 15-20 16-20 13-20 15-20 11-20 14-20


Drow Quarterstaff (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Quarterstaff_of_the_Weapon_Master)
19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Drow Rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master)
17-20 13-20 14-20 11-20 13-20 9-20 12-20


Carnifex (http://ddowiki.com/page/Carnifex)
19-20 (w/o Keen) 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20 13-20 16-20


Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher)
20-20 19-20 19-20 17-20 18-20 15-20 17-20



ESoS takes a long time to farm, why nerf it yet another time (it was nerfed at least twice in the past)?
What was the reason to nerf so hard Thief Acrobats? Anyone even complained that Acrobats are overpowered? I do play my Acrobat a lot these days (he is my 5th epic toon and finally capped all EDs), but I have't seen any other acrobats on Orien at all (I do raid a lot too), I mean every other rogue is either Mechanic with Xbow (and an exploding barrel) or an Assassin. So, I ask again, why the nerf?

EDIT 1: Updated the table with more weapons and added more columns to compare things when there are bonuses to crit range too.

EDIT 2: General rule is that the wider crit range the harder the nerf (including bonuses to crit range from enchantments/epic destinies/holy sword/etc.). But even Greataxe users will suffer very hard from this nerf (check out Epic Riftmaker in the table: 15-20 vs 17-20).

EDIT 3:
The correct way to nerf IC feat is this:

Double the base crit range (as the proposed balance pass does).
If some special weapons have increased base crit range then still double it (the proposed balance pass doesn't do that).
Do not double any other bonuses, that is the bonuses from Enhancements, bonuses from EDs, the bonus from Holy Sword, etc. should not be doubled.
This way special named items would not be nerfed, i.e. only the feat would be nerfed.

Oathblade http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade is not on your list and will be affected. That is a weapon that was designed with both an expanded crit range and keen put on it BY THE DEVS. This is a weapon that is WAI as it was built by them. Why do the (new) devs feel the need to nerf it (it was nerfed once already when they ruined vorpal).

[Thrudh]

Changes from the + Old IC feat to the + New IC feat columns are nerfs and should be discuses with the dev it would be nice if they looked at these weapons and they corrected then on the weapon it self, as most of them were intended to crit more often.

Exactly... There's a couple of named items that are getting hit extra hard... Maybe the devs should look at those. But in general, the new numbers in the New IC feat column are exactly what they should have been all along.

Two named quarterstaffs are the only problems in that list. That list is just proof that the change is generally well designed.

[AngryDude]

What is the ETA on the nerf? I'm sure it was noted somewhere else already but missed an ETA.

[Thrudh]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

Now this is a decent post... The devs might listen to us if we talk about specific problems with the system, not condemning any decrease in DPS as an unacceptable nerf that will cause the game to crash and burn.

Hyperbole gets us nowhere... People stop listening if all one does is rant and rave.

[Thrudh]

Ironically, barbs should see the smallest DPS hit, yet they're arguably the class everyone agrees is most OP! :rolleyes:

Because of their self-healing, not because of their DPS. I don't think anyone has a problem with barbs having a lot of DPS. And the devs are addressing that somewhat. It's on their radar.

[Thrudh]

Yes, it's a serious question. Some classes are losing up to a quarter of their DPS. Others are losing around 12-15%. This is enough that, for several classes, you can't kill things fast enough before they kill you. It makes it rather difficult to play. You probably won't see it in heroics as much, or on epic normal. But some epic hard (depending on the toon, past lives, gear, class, etc.) and certainly epic elite will be unplayable for many toons.

Some epic elite quests will be harder to solo? Say it isn't so!

Unplayable for many characters after losing 12%-15% DPS? No, sorry... Try some aggro control and playing smarter if you simply must SOLO the more difficult epic elites and find your DPS is not enough to zerg through everything.

And don't pull out the "Oh, this hurts casual players more!" card... They aren't trying to solo the harder epic elite quests.

[Robai]

Improved Crit was multiplying other bonuses. This was wrong.

The new method works for base weapons, but it fails to take into account any special weapons. For example the silver flame bow is a special weapon that has a base crit range of 19-20. When improved crit is applied this weapon should go to 17-20. It does not. It only goes to 18-20 because bows are only getting +1. Yes it is still better for crit range than other bows, but it is not applying correctly.

Added Silver Longbow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Silver_bow).


Stout Oak Walknig Stick, Sireth, Epic Bone Crusher and Epic Elemental Bloom all get heavily nerfed by the change, as well as a collection of heroic staffs.

Right now on live it's not just one single staff to rule them all.

Added Stout Oak Walking Stick (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Stout_Oak_Walking_Stick), Epic Elemental Bloom (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Elemental_Bloom), Elemental Bloom (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Elemental_Bloom).


Oathblade http://ddowiki.com/page/Oathblade is not on your list and will be affected. That is a weapon that was designed with both an expanded crit range and keen put on it BY THE DEVS. This is a weapon that is WAI as it was built by them. Why do the (new) devs feel the need to nerf it (it was nerfed once already when they ruined vorpal).

Done!

[Robai]

Added table with the correct nerf.

[Axeyu]

Added table with the correct nerf.

Why is it so bad that named weapons with crit improvements are no longer as much of an auto pick?

[Robai]

Why is it so bad that named weapons with crit improvements are no longer as much of an auto pick?

Do you auto pick up Drow weapons?
Do you auto pick up Falcions or Rapiers?
Do you auto pick up Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade) when you hit lvl 24?

[bartharok]

Do you auto pick up Drow weapons?
Do you auto pick up Falcions or Rapiers?
Do you auto pick up Mutineer's Blade (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Mutineer%27s_Blade) when you hit lvl 24?

Juat my opinion, but ive noticed that i look more at the crit profile than the base damage for most weapons.

Thus i can see why the nerf is needed.

Oh, and it will affect me, but i still dont think its a bad idea.

[unbongwah]

It doesn't look like Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher) is getting a big nerf since in comparison table I included only up to +2 bonus to crit range, but in Swashbukler you can have quite high crit ranges (I'm not sure what's doubled there by IC feat).
Current:
LD: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 15-20/x4 IC:Blunt -> 15-18/x4 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit) Pulverizer doesn't stack w/Swashbuckling
DC: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 17-20/x4 Celestial Champion -> 13-20/x4 IC:Blunt ->13-18/x4 19-20/x5 (OC)

Proposed changes:
LD: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 17-20/x4 IC:Blunt -> 16-20/x4 Pulverizer -> 16-18/x4 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit) Pulverizer will stack w/Swashbuckling
DC: 20/x3 base -> 18-20/x4 Swashbucking -> 17-20/x4 IC:Blunt -> 16-18/x4 19-20/x6 (Overwhelming Crit + Devastating Crit)

So LD Swashies using Skullsmasher will only lose 5% crit change (-3 effective hits); but DC Swashies lose 15% crit chance (-9 effective hits). [In other EDs you lose 10% crit chance vs current live.] As I've said elsewhere, making DC even less viable vs LD than it already is doesn't seem like a great balance tweak... :(

Now that being said, Turbine has said they're aware of this issue re:Swashbucklers and Assassins, so we'll see if they fix it.

[Grace_ana]

Some epic elite quests will be harder to solo? Say it isn't so!

Unplayable for many characters after losing 12%-15% DPS? No, sorry... Try some aggro control and playing smarter if you simply must SOLO the more difficult epic elites and find your DPS is not enough to zerg through everything.

And don't pull out the "Oh, this hurts casual players more!" card... They aren't trying to solo the harder epic elite quests.

Please point out where I said "solo." I didn't. I've never solo'd EE. I also don't want to pike it because my DPS sucks and so I die and am easier to deal with as a soulstone.

And yes, it hurts casual players for the same reasons. Sorry you're stuck on your image of soloing "elitists."

[redoubt]

Expanded crit weapons are not "autopick". There are some that are better at level than other lootgen. There are some that are not.

What I will say is that the margin on most of these weapons is small enough, that without the crit bonuses applying, they will be "don't pick".

I'll go back to my silver lowbow example. Even now, this is not an "autopick". I didn't even use it on my last moncher life. I can craft weapons that do better steady dps.

However, look at weapons like carniflex. This are very common weapons at low level due to their crit range.

Now these may be bad examples because they exist below the min level for IC feat. I'll have to ponder some of the expanded crit weapons that are higher level (because I tend to just use green steel.)

[EllisDee37]

Now these may be bad examples because they exist below the min level for IC feat.Carnifex has keen as a property, and keen is getting the same treatment as IC, so Carnifex would be changing from 17-20x3 to 18-20x3.

[AbyssalMage]

Some epic elite quests will be harder to solo? Say it isn't so!

Unplayable for many characters after losing 12%-15% DPS? No, sorry... Try some aggro control and playing smarter if you simply must SOLO the more difficult epic elites and find your DPS is not enough to zerg through everything.

And don't pull out the "Oh, this hurts casual players more!" card... They aren't trying to solo the harder epic elite quests.
So sorry to harp on you personally, but do you understand what 12-15% loss in DPS means? Do you understand how badly this effects content in EE? People throw around %'s without actually understanding what it means.

Maybe if people start using numbers (DPS) instead of %'s, people will understand the gravity of the problem.

[Kompera_Oberon]

So sorry to harp on you personally, but do you understand what 12-15% loss in DPS means? Do you understand how badly this effects content in EE? People throw around %'s without actually understanding what it means.

Maybe if people start using numbers (DPS) instead of %'s, people will understand the gravity of the problem.

That's a good idea. Here's some numbers that might be easier to understand: One player in a group of six.

If everyone loses ~12-15% DPs then it's like running with 5 players instead of 6.

[Ellihor]

No, they didn't. Staffs need the better crit profile to make them worth using. If they have the same crit profile as any other weapon, the other weapon is clearly superior.

It is by desing. It is intended to be what it is. Weapons are not intended to be equal. If that was true khopeshes should not exist to start with. also, there is:


Pure Acrobats still get +20% atk speed, +20% base doublestrike, and Quick Strike (effectively another +16.7% doublestrike) compared to regular 2H weapons. Now that Pulverizer stacks w/Staff Spec, an LD Acro using crafted staves will still have 17-20/x3 crit profile; Stoat Oak is 17-20/x4. Despite the crit nerf to some of the named staves (inc. my Sireth), I'm not worried about Acrobat DPS.

While EVERYONE is taking a nerf, staff users (except that couple named that has improved threat) are untouched, so they have been relatively buffed.

[Ellihor]

So sorry to harp on you personally, but do you understand what 12-15% loss in DPS means? Do you understand how badly this effects content in EE? People throw around %'s without actually understanding what it means.

Maybe if people start using numbers (DPS) instead of %'s, people will understand the gravity of the problem.

I know you were directing this to Thrudh but I feel like this needss response.

You have to understand that almost everyone are gtting reduced damage form crits, not only the users of those weapons. Ok, some more and some less. But I have to disagree, 15% DPS loss is not a bad thing. This damage should not be there to start with: when they buffed paladins they already said IC was not supposed to double holy sword bonus. All other revamp after paladin follows the same line. Divine crusader critical also goes with that. Think like we are not loosing the daage we have, but just that we had an extra bonus damage and it is now ending. We all know the damage of players has gone to the roof in the course of the last 12 months. It was needed. Specially crit wise, it was just out of control.

It is you who are not understanding the gravity of the problem, by trying to make it look like it is the end of the world. Actually, this changes to crits means very litlle. We all know this would come some day, since when they revamped paladins. I am suprised it took so long.

[kyostal]

As I have already sent a message to Robai, his math regarding the old vs new was is horribly misleading. Improved Crit was never meant to double the range provided by enhancments/feats/spells/whatever like it currently does. The current way range is calculated is as such:

(Base Profile + Enh + Spell + ED) x IC = Active Crit range


The proper new way IC should be dealt with is as such:

(Base Profile x IC) + Enh + Spell + ED = Active Crit range

Keep the feat exactly as it is already at double the range, but make it apply first, before anything/everything else, and apply only to the base of the weapon.

This will keep the Expanded crit range weapons functions as they always have, while keeping IC from affecting the spells/enhanments/ED buffs.

[Robai]

As I have already sent a message to Robai, his math regarding the old vs new was is horribly misleading. Improved Crit was never meant to double the range provided by enhancments/feats/spells/whatever like it currently does. The current way range is calculated is as such:

(Base Profile + Enh + Spell + ED) x IC = Active Crit range


The proper new way IC should be dealt with is as such:

(Base Profile x IC) + Enh + Spell + ED = Active Crit range

Keep the feat exactly as it is already at double the range, but make it apply first, before anything/everything else, and apply only to the base of the weapon.

This will keep the Expanded crit range weapons functions as they always have, while keeping IC from affecting the spells/enhanments/ED buffs.

Lol, ok, I have sent you this reply:

Yes, the nerf is not big for most weapons, but it was big for some named weapons.
This was especially a very big nerf to my Acrobat who has Sireth (as you can see it from the first table).
This 'new' equation you speak of is already in the table :) Just look at the second table.

I'm happy that Severlin understood the situation and will actually adjust base crit ranges for items with increased base ranges (so that they won't get double nerf).

[unbongwah]

While EVERYONE is taking a nerf, staff users (except that couple named that has improved threat) are untouched, so they have been relatively buffed.
Even if we're talking about staves with regular crit ranges, with the loss of stacking crit range bonuses, Acrobats have been nerfed as well - under certain circumstances, at least:

Heroic levels:

Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec (or Holy Sword) -> 17-20/x3 IC:Blunt
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 IC:Blunt = net loss of 2 effective hits or ~7.4% DPS


Divine Crusader:


Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 Celestial Champion -> 15-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 (Overwhelming Crit)
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 Celestial Champion -> 17-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x4 (OC) = net loss of 4 effective hits or ~14.1% DPS


Legendary Dreadnought:

Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 17-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 (OC+Devastating Crit)
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 17-20/x3 Pulverizer -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 (OC+Devastating Crit) = no change


So LD staff builds (using non-named staves) will be unaffected by the changes; but under all other circumstances, we'll be losing ~7-14% critable DPS over current live. [This doesn't affect sneak atks, though, so the overall % DPS loss will be less.] As I've said elsewhere, a "balance" change which keeps LD DPS the same but nerfs DC (which already lags behind LD) is not really an improvement, IMHO. :rolleyes:

Naturally, this might change if Turbine decides to buff Acrobat to compensate; but so far I haven't seen what if anything they'll be changing in the PrEs.

[kyostal]

Even if we're talking about staves with regular crit ranges, with the loss of stacking crit range bonuses, Acrobats have been nerfed as well - under certain circumstances, at least:

Heroic levels:

Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec (or Holy Sword) -> 17-20/x3 IC:Blunt
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 IC:Blunt = net loss of 2 effective hits or ~7.4% DPS


Divine Crusader:


Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 Celestial Champion -> 15-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 15-18/x3 19-20/x4 (Overwhelming Crit)
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 Celestial Champion -> 17-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x4 (OC) = net loss of 4 effective hits or ~14.1% DPS


Legendary Dreadnought:

Current: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 17-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 (OC+Devastating Crit)
New: 20/x2 base -> 19-20/x3 Staff Spec -> 18-20/x3 IC:Blunt -> 17-20/x3 Pulverizer -> 17-18/x3 19-20/x5 (OC+Devastating Crit) = no change


So LD staff builds (using non-named staves) will be unaffected by the changes; but under all other circumstances, we'll be losing ~7-14% critable DPS over current live. [This doesn't affect sneak atks, though, so the overall % DPS loss will be less.] As I've said elsewhere, a "balance" change which keeps LD DPS the same but nerfs DC (which already lags behind LD) is not really an improvement, IMHO. :rolleyes:

Naturally, this might change if Turbine decides to buff Acrobat to compensate; but so far I haven't seen what if anything they'll be changing in the PrEs.


But you are forgetting, IC was never meant to double the range provided by enhancments/spells/EDs. This is in no way a "nerf" as everyone keeps crying. It is a fix to the way that IC multiplied everything else after being applied to the base range, rather than just affecting the base range.

[Grace_ana]

But you are forgetting, IC was never meant to double the range provided by enhancments/spells/EDs. This is in no way a "nerf" as everyone keeps crying. It is a fix to the way that IC multiplied everything else after being applied to the base range, rather than just affecting the base range.

It WAS a nerf until people pointed out the problem. It was harming named weapons that had an inherent expanded crit range. That's the base weapon's stat, before enh, spells, and EDs.

[kyostal]

It WAS a nerf until people pointed out the problem. It was harming named weapons that had an inherent expanded crit range. That's the base weapon's stat, before enh, spells, and EDs.

Keyword there being WAS. The problem was dealt with, and in fact is now a buff for anyone who does not normally use the weapon.

There is no more reason to cry over what was, as it is no more.

[Grace_ana]

Keyword there being WAS. The problem was dealt with, and in fact is now a buff for anyone who does not normally use the weapon.

There is no more reason to cry over what was, as it is no more.

Yes and no. The issue is that certain builds are tremendously behind in DPS with these changes, compared to other classes. Some builds, like acrobat, depended on the stacking crits to make up for a lackluster base weapon choice. There are builds that were meant to have extras, like assassin and swashbuckler. The devs have already stated that they recognize several of these need to be fixed. People are pointing out the issues.

[kyostal]

Yes and no. The issue is that certain builds are tremendously behind in DPS with these changes, compared to other classes. Some builds, like acrobat, depended on the stacking crits to make up for a lackluster base weapon choice. There are builds that were meant to have extras, like assassin and swashbuckler. The devs have already stated that they recognize several of these need to be fixed. People are pointing out the issues.


Best way to make the game balanced, so everyone stops the cryin: Mandatory Path at birth, with set gear auto-equpped at specific levels so that everyone playing that class, has exactly the same thing. Now remove all but 1 class, at random. - Games balanced.