Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[Severlin]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:


The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.


Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.



Core Abilities


Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.


Tier One



Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.


Tier Two


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)


Tier Three


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.


Tier Four


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.


Tier Five


Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


Sev~

[burningwind]

you need to add epic level into the equation to make them epic viable. since monster save rise dramatically in epic~~

my propose is original dc + (epic level *2). so epic level and heroic level weight 50% 50%.

for example:

Thunderstone DC: 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + (epic level * 2) + Intelligence bonus.

so when level 30 introduce we will be look at around 60+ int mod, which make it useful in epic elite.

p.s. you should do the same for any other tree you are revamping. because most of the heoric stuff are useless in epic. and if you think epic equipment will make up the dc, you are wrong. it is the sole reason why assassinate is not popular. and please stop making super op equipment, it really kills the game. from 1~20 we only get 5 stats point, and you introduce +6 stats tome. serious? all you are doing is make character development worthless. that is why there are so many trap build with only one or two rogue level. because it is all about gear and not really about class ability.

edit: by making all ability gear dependent, basically you are telling people. you are complete useless until you reach level XX and farm OO, otherwise none of your ability make any sense. also if you don't scale epic level, you are discouraging people from multiclass.. if you scale epic level people can multiclass and still get these useful.

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you, for updating traps levels and reducing times to set.
I appreciate that very much.

It seems you folks have answered past/future most all of my wish list.


You renaming sharpshooting. Is this a "stacks with everything buff?" I assume so since it seems untyped bonus?

I love the expansion of sharpshooting into all ranged weapons and the increase of damage with great Xbows. This will allow a greater variety in building.

Thank you for scaling into epics via melee power.

I'll leave the precise number theory to others, but overall bird's eye view looking nice to me.

[HatsuharuZ]

I like these changes, however the viability of ranged power scaling depends on how much you put in, so I can't comment on that.

There are 2 changes I'd like to see that would benefit repeater rogues, along with all crossbow and/or ranged users:

1) Increase the size of ammunition stacks that drop as random loot. 20 ammo per drop is not sufficient, especially since the magical ammo with the extra elemental damage can only be found in random drops and sometimes on the AH, making it hard to find the element one wants.

2) Please make the crossbow firing and reloading animations into a *single* animation that only requires one click, same as the bow animation.

[depositbox]

Looks good. Can see some actual builds using the tree.

[Myrddinman]

At first glance, this looks like a decent start. For ease of comparison, would it be possible to present the entire tree with the changes in bold or different color. This way we won't have to keep going back and forth to the DDO Wiki (as awesome as it is) to reference the changes. I think it would create a more complete picture.

I appreciate the nudge to Great Crossbows...are there any plans to introduce more named ones, since there is only one (Oladren's) besides the crafted ones?

I am really looking forward to the discussions :)

[Aelonwy]

Wow. Now I'm definitely debating whether I should keep my arty pure. Mmmmm hard choices.

[Silverleafeon]

you need to add epic level into the equation to make them epic viable. since monster save rise dramatically in epic~~.

A strong valid point which needs to be address.
I mean really the CR of Monsters in the game is going thru the roof, I expect to see CR 100 monsters on EE level cap which makes dispel magic/spell reistance/turn undead/possible trap DC/etc difficult to program.

[i]Why are the CRs going out of control anyway???


Personally, I would like to see Epic Destinies increased to level 10.
{Using either my hybrid plan or the scaling plan or whatever.}

Then you need to apply ED levels to more than caster levels.
For example Shadowdancer should add its ED levels to the equation.
So you could have Rogue Levels + Epic Levels + Shadowdancer Levels ?

A druid's pet could have Druid Levels + Epic Levels + Primal Avatar Levels {of course then everyone needs to not use Summer Smoke which bugs out pet collars}.

[dualscissors]

Thanks for updating Tanglefoot and Thunderstone to have workable DCs and to be functional (one of them was broken).

This gives some CC options to all rogues, which was one of the glaring weak suits of the class when these features were bugged.

I can't sing the praises of heal scrolls once you hit Epic but the 1/1/1 AP cost will at least make using it as a fallback option affordable...the dev team might want to consider addressing (not saying OPing) one big problem that still remains. Damage taken in EH and EE will sabotage any chance to use heal scrolls since Concentration ranks aren't in line with the inflation on damage in the game. *Of course, one can always jump out of a fight, gear swap, click gear swap again if it doesn't take, UMD the scroll if you aren't being chased and whacked on, switch back to your weapon, then reenter the fight...but this really isn't an efficient way to heal or maintain DPS.

[Mryal]

Wow ,big changes.Im not comenting on traps since i have no experience on them.

Thunderstone and tanglefoot - Those are interesting, damage would sill be pretty poor on epics, usualy shooting an assorted ranged weapon would do more, i get that they can be used for CC thought.But i have a suggestion : Make them have no animation, but block them from beign used if charging a rune arm.The idea is if youre using a crossbow/great crossbow, people never get to experience the capstone of mechanic really, 2 arti is needed for rune arm use, not having a rune arm is too huge a loss.Allowing these to be used as a sort of replacement for rune arm shots would be great!

I love the versatility in the tree.The bonuses in great crossbow might make it viable, i have to say im eager to actualy try that on lamania.In fact a lot of this requires lamania testing for proper feedback.Its interesting to think that we might finaly have a viable ranged character that isnt tied to shooting multiple projectiles at once and can make full use of doubleshot.But at the same time the tree also mantains bonuses to other weapons making it still be good for splashing as it is now.

DCs of 10+rogue level+int are still low i'd say thought, consider adding some form of epic lvls in the process.Youre mostly sitting at at least -2 DC from splashing 2 arti with this alredy.

Sev, you mentioned 3rd arti tree and arti EDs and ranged pass, this tree mentions ranged power.Can we have an input on what else will come on this update? arti trees revamp? just the 3rd tree? ED? No trees at all for arti?

[Mryal]

I can't sing the praises of heal scrolls once you hit Epic but the 1/1/1 AP cost will at least make using it as a fallback option affordable...the dev team might want to consider addressing (not saying OPing) one big problem that still remains. Damage taken in EH and EE will sabotage any chance to use heal scrolls since Concentration ranks aren't in line with the inflation on damage in the game. *Of course, one can always jump out of a fight, gear swap, click gear swap again if it doesn't take, UMD the scroll if you aren't being chased and whacked on, switch back to your weapon, then reenter the fight...but this really isn't an efficient way to heal or maintain DPS.

Theres no fixing this one.I still say, complete removal of concentration checks on DDO is the only way.The system isnt meant for the reality we have.

[Grailhawk]

Tier Five


Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disarm Traps skill as the DC.



Disarm Traps Skill = Disable Devices?

[Severlin]

Disarm Traps Skill = Disable Devices?

Yes. I'll fix the OP.

Sev~

[Oxarhamar]

Looks solid.

I'll be looking forward to trying an all new Full time Repeater build when Lamania opens.

Let's hope these changes don't see too much nerfbat before then & live even.

[ForgettableNPC]

I am all for this, I ran a Rogue with my patented Rogue Mechanic Treasure Hunter (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/428036-Rogue-Mechanic-Treasure-Hunter!) build and the Deadly Traps did a fair amount of damage on Heroics, even if it was only 50d6 damage per trap (One problem, you couldn't see the exact damage it dealt pop up, good thing that's getting fixed). I loved to charge into enemies, set down a fire trap while I dodged them, and let it explode and keep shooting my Repeating Crossbow.

Please fix Thunderstone Daze effect. It doesn't actually Daze anything even if the effect shows up on enemies.

Love the returning chance on ranged weapons, I was getting tired of buying stacks of Sturdy Deneith Bolts whenever I quested and keep running out during certain long quests (Speaking of which, will the Fletching Enhancement stack with innate Returning chance on Sturdy Bolts?)

Time Bomb: No complaints. More Explosions means a happier ForgettableNPC. Though a 1000 Fire and Sonic damage for every 20 seconds MIGHT be a bit too unbalanced, in my opinion...damage might need to be rescaled a little? Not sure.

Shame nothing's there for Doubleshot chances, though (Unless if that one's being kept and just not being changed in the slightest). And there's only one Enhancement that gives Ranged Power. Hopefully there's other sources to get Ranged Power from, such as Range-related Feats.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Initial post removed.

This is a hard tree to comment on without doing testing.

[Caprice]

My first impression is that this looks rather nice and I'll consider playing one. And this time a Paladin 14 doesn't actually "do it better" than a mostly Rogue build, which makes me very happy. Thank you for that.

Are you also adding bows to the Targeting Sights core or is it staying with Crossbows and Thrown only? I'm guessing you are and it was a simple oversight but I want to be sure for planning out a build.


Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.
Off topic, but does that mean that there are actually plans to give Artificers trap enhancements other than the +3 skills from Field Engineer? Or is it still in some version of "Soon (tm)"? You've made me regret not splashing Rogue on my Artificer (in the short term).

[Lauf]

Rogue mechanic is the only ranged class that can't create arrows/bolts. from my time as an artificer I remember needing ~3-4k bolts before starting a quest.
assuming 80% returning, this puts the rogue mechanic at 800 bolts per quest. with quivers usually not holding more than 1k stacks, this means a mechanic has a lot of back and forth running between quests to shop for more, not to mention the likelihood of running out mid-quest at some point or another, rendering himself mostly useless.
I realize making all the mechanic's ammo 100% returning poses a ton of other problems, but surely giving them a spell like ability of creating a stack of standard non-magical arrows or bolts (multi-selector) would work well with the class being a mechanic...
and if you can create a stack, and it is then 80% returning, then you're sitting pretty.

[Mryal]

Rogue mechanic is the only ranged class that can't create arrows/bolts. from my time as an artificer I remember needing ~3-4k bolts before starting a quest.
assuming 80% returning, this puts the rogue mechanic at 800 bolts per quest. with quivers usually not holding more than 1k stacks, this means a mechanic has a lot of back and forth running between quests to shop for more, not to mention the likelihood of running out mid-quest at some point or another, rendering himself mostly useless.
I realize making all the mechanic's ammo 100% returning poses a ton of other problems, but surely giving them a spell like ability of creating a stack of standard non-magical arrows or bolts (multi-selector) would work well with the class being a mechanic...
and if you can create a stack, and it is then 80% returning, then you're sitting pretty.

You can umd conjure bolts scrolls for ammo, creates a stack of 1000 now, recent update changed.
80% returning is way better than having a way to create your own ammo, at the very least it enables the use of Flame Arrow scrolls wich is alredy better than a crafted plain ammo with no bonuses, but on the long run it also makes room for actualy using all that <insert random bonuses here> ammo you drop and never use, additionaly theres also cannith crafting for ammo.

[Bolo_Grubb]

Makes me think I make change the level splits on my Rogue/arti/ranger. Maybe even go 18 rogue/2 arti (Gotta have rune arm use)

[Enoach]

It has been over 6 years since I've played a build with more than 2 levels of Rogue so my thoughts on the Enhancement Tree won't really be of any use because I don't know what they are to compare to where you are going.

However, I can comment on the Trap and Grenade making side.

One of the reasons why my Bard/Arti/rog build has 4 levels of Artificer is for the Trapmaking skill. I like the idea of making traps and setting them. I like the direction you are going with traps and look forward to what is available for the Epic Trapping.

[ddorimble]

Capstone needs a big boost. People must have wanted to build 18 rogue/2 artificers since the level 18 core is much better than the level 20. That's fine, keep the level 18 as is, but the level 20 is going to be need to be a lot stronger or 18/2 becomes the default.

Agreed, it's ok, but I can have like a constant +20 damage with a Glass Cannon on. You better come big if you want people to put that down.

Plot Twist (by M. Night Shyamalan): Level 20 Mechanic capstone allows Rune Arm use. That's right, I said it. It honestly doesn't seem all that different from the way Evasion was given to Swashbuckler's at 20. To mollify that obvious and practically required 2 Rogue splash.

[knifefighter]

Rogue mechanic is the only ranged class that can't create arrows/bolts. from my time as an artificer I remember needing ~3-4k bolts before starting a quest.
assuming 80% returning, this puts the rogue mechanic at 800 bolts per quest. with quivers usually not holding more than 1k stacks, this means a mechanic has a lot of back and forth running between quests to shop for more, not to mention the likelihood of running out mid-quest at some point or another, rendering himself mostly useless.
I realize making all the mechanic's ammo 100% returning poses a ton of other problems, but surely giving them a spell like ability of creating a stack of standard non-magical arrows or bolts (multi-selector) would work well with the class being a mechanic...
and if you can create a stack, and it is then 80% returning, then you're sitting pretty.

I will never play a pure ranged rogue as long as I have to go back to the vendor every quest or two to buy arrows, A major annoyance for me. Have to splash arty or ranger. You should either put the returning to 100% at tier 3 or give mechanics some proper way to create ammo.


You can umd conjure bolts scrolls for ammo, creates a stack of 1000 now, recent update changed.
80% returning is way better than having a way to create your own ammo, at the very least it enables the use of Flame Arrow scrolls wich is alredy better than a crafted plain ammo with no bonuses, but on the long run it also makes room for actualy using all that <insert random bonuses here> ammo you drop and never use, additionaly theres also cannith crafting for ammo.

The problem with scrolls to create them comes up when you're in the middle of battle and you run out, if you have enough agro you're never going to pass that concentration check on EE to make any more. Ya maybe I should be more prepared, but theres no good way in game to check your stock of arrows without spending 5 min going through your inventory every battle. Also when you run out of scrolls and arrows you're now useless for the rest of the quest. (I run out of things midquest very often on other characters, luckily with casters I have tons of other spells to use, with arrows/bolts running out there's nothing else to switch to but melee that you might not be built for)

[Dreppo]

I'm not sure what to make of the weapon specialization expanding from "crossbows" to "bows, crossbows, and throwing weapons". The crossbow theme was made sense because they are mechanical devices. Crossbows and traps, that seemed like enough to specialize in without diluting flavor. Now bows I could kind of get behind, because they are mechanical devices too, albeit much simpler than crossbows. So sure, give them bows. A possible downside is that since there is a much better selection of named bows, most people will ignore crossbows and switch over to bows. A few more named crossbows would help.

I don't really like the idea of mechanics becoming the best at throwing weapons. They aren't mechanical, they are much more of a finesse weapon. Throwing daggers in particular are easily concealable and you can imagine throwing one as an opening foray coming out of stealth. These have been an assassin specialization until now. But even with the assassin T5 Knife Specialization, assassins won't be as good at throwing daggers as mechanics will be with these proposed changes. I say remove throwing weapons. It's anti-thematic and treads on assassin's territory. The increased bonuses to crossbows, as well as bringing regular bows into the mix, are plenty.

I have two suggestions for further improvement:
1) The first mechanic core adds 5m to ranged sneak attack + point blank shot. This fits mechanics perfectly. I'd like to see this expanded upon in later cores. Maybe another 5m at 12, and another 5m at 20.
2) How about a way to use runarms without having to dip into artificer? It's a mechanical thing so it's thematic. But while artificers get it cheaply (for free at level 2), make it expensive to get from mechanic... either a T5 enhancement or part of the capstone. And remember that artificers can improve runearms through the battle engineer tree, while pure mechanics won't have any such options.

[Caprice]

Agreed, it's ok, but I can have like a constant +20 damage with a Glass Cannon on. You better come big if you want people to put that down.

Plot Twist (by M. Night Shyamalan): Level 20 Mechanic capstone allows Rune Arm use. That's right, I said it.
18/2: constant +2d6 +2d8 from Glass Cannon
versus
20: constant +2 damage, +2d6 Sneak Attacks, +1 all relevant class skills, decent panic button & burst DPS ability, +2 to all DCs for abilities in tree

I agree that 18/2 will be popular, but I think the capstone isn't terrible either and I think I could justify to myself staying pure.

Hmm. Is Hip Flask's passive damage bonus going to be extended to bows and thrown or remain specific to the flavors of crossbows?

P.S. I like the Plot Twist a lot but I don't think it would be well balanced.

Edit: I missed that Hip Flask's active ability is an Action Boost. That makes it significantly less exciting IMO.

[maddong]

Does mechanical reloader let the thrown attack rate cap go above 84 (3x the bab 0 thrown attack rate of 28)? Because people are already hitting the max attack speed with thrown weapons due to whirling wrists being so good.... Regardless, options at reaching that attack rate are good.

Expert builder (core 18) is a nice alternative to holy sword. An elf/half elf/sun elf rogue 18 can make nice use of furyshot with pinion and arrow of slaying. Pinion becomes 15-20/x4 so you can get 3 bolts x 4 crit x 5 adrenaline x 250 slaying = 15000 damage x ranged power not including the weapon damage multiplied by 60 x rp. And it is nice because it doesn't go on cooldown like many shot.

[Severlin]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

[ddorimble]

18/2: constant +2d6 +2d8 from Glass Cannon
versus
20: constant +2 damage, +2d6 Sneak Attacks, +1 all relevant class skills, decent panic button & burst DPS ability, +2 to all DCs for abilities in tree

I agree that 18/2 will be popular, but I think the capstone isn't terrible either and I think I could justify to myself staying pure.

Hmm. Is Hip Flask's passive damage bonus going to be extended to bows and thrown or remain specific to the flavors of crossbows?

P.S. I like the Plot Twist a lot but I don't think it would be well balanced.

Hey, no worries, everyone has different goals. It'd be 18/2 for me, though. There are many more things than just Glass Cannon, I just think that's the highest straight damage one. That splash is basically adding an entire additional inventory slot for all kinds of wonderful different effects. Sign me up!

[Livmo]

Wow. Now I'm definitely debating whether I should keep my arty pure. Mmmmm hard choices.

Shadar-Kai with 6 levels arty and the rest rouge. You survive by wit and guile. Fun if you want the challenge. Improrved traps would help this build allot. I would love a net trap that can be deployed via a weapon to catch the Sleestaks with.

DDO Wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Here is Coldin's Guide:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/259276

The Order of Syncletica's Stealth Guide:
https://sites.google.com/site/ddostealthteamsix/

[Livmo]

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

IMO a fletcher should be able to fletch at the trap station in House C and be able to make various ammo via the parts picked up in quests/raids. Right now there is still an overabundance of mechanical trap parts tho.

If I could fletch, then no need to splash 1 level arty to Conjur Bolts (you get + from weapon and not bolt since the don't stack. A weak bolt is OK if + god on weapon). Splash 2 levels of art if you want Conjur Bolts and Rune Arm.

However, I'm turned on to the idea of fletching. Feelss more realistic to me for a Mechanic. I make stuff instead of cojuring it.

[Severlin]

Shadar-Kai with 6 levels arty and the rest rouge. You survive by wit and guile. Fun if you want the challenge. Improrved traps would help this build allot. I would love a net trap that can be deployed via a weapon to catch the Sleestaks with.

DDO Wiki:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

Here is Coldin's Guide:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/259276

The Order of Syncletica's Stealth Guide:
https://sites.google.com/site/ddostealthteamsix/

With the Sleestak reference I am truly disappointed that one of the links wasn't to a YouTube scene from the old Land of the Lost series.

Sev~

[Livmo]

With the Sleestak reference I am truly disappointed that one of the links wasn't to a YouTube scene from the old Land of the Lost series.

Sev~

Could not resist this one, although not original:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bllBC-ThwjQ

[Qezuzu]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:


The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.


Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.


Does this mean that the Web Traps (and other spell traps) with DC's of >100 is WAI? It's always something I thought was a tad powerful for a tier2 ability and Improved Traps doesn't say it increases spell trap DC this way, and the improvements to the setting speed and cooldown makes it a much more spammable ability. These changes could potentially unbalance spell traps or at least Web traps, but on the other hand removing such a reliable source of CC would basically nullify an Assassin's ability to solo difficult content.

About spammability, how expensive are the epic-level traps going to be? Because the current ML11 traps, which require 100 elemental parts per 15, are already going to require a bunch of farming if I want to use them on a regular basis. If the ML27 traps are going to require 500 parts or something for 15 mines, it won't be a practical ability.

Just looking at the ratios in my ingredients bag, Mechanical and Fire traps make up an overwhelming majority of traps, at least in the epic content that I play. I'm not saying there aren't other traps of different elemental types, but it means that I would have to go out of my way to get traps parts if I want to combat something like Fire Elementals, which is a pretty common fire-resistant enemy that I would want to use traps on. This wouldn't be a problem if traps were cheap, however.

Holy and Unholy trap parts? These have no known use. Holy mines could be made to be very good for anti-undead

Mines are buggy on some terrain and fail to appear. It's really noticeable on very uneven terrain (a lot of "outside" quests), and I rarely see it happen when in a building ("inside" quests). This is something you should look in to as well.


Tier Two



Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)


Is there a chance for Wand and Scroll Mastery to also do something like improve casting speed or provide a bonus to concentration?



Tier Five



Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.



These are nice changes. It's obvious you're trying to greatly improve non-repeating crossbows here, but with their representation in named loot (especially great crossbows) I don't think it's something that will work. But it's better than leaving them all worthless.

The tree needs some sources of increased sneak attack range, like Deepwood Sniper has.

[ArkoHighStar]

I like the overall tone of the changes, a big fan of more than one weapon choice for mechanics and making the ranged rogue.

But how about a doubleshot bonus for bows to go along with the speed bonuses you are giving to every other weapon

And why do non repeaters get a + 2 bonus and not every other non repeating weapon like bows and throwing weapons.

also hip flask will the to hit and damage portions of that be expanded like with sharpshooter to other ranged weapons

[bbqzor]

AARRRGGHH the forums just freaking ate my long response. Man so much rage, I hate these junky forums and their constant problems. RAAAGGGEEE. AARRGGH.

Alright short version, mourning for the lost details of the long version. Sorry if this one is more crass or pointed. I just dont have an hour to go over things in detail again, forgive any rage that shows up. Did I mention rage. Okay. Gotta move on. Rage.

TRAPS:
-Look okay, have to play it on lama since it depends on feel a lot. Like how fast/slow/playable it feels in use. Cannot tell that from here, WILL feedback on lama, hope you have time to change it still at that point in the cycle.

CORE:
-Tanglefoot is junky, even on a super rogue (lv20, range power 150, int 70) the DC and damage are too low to be of use high end (maybe eh, definitely not ee).
-Improved Detection is good but maybe ought to offer Int to attack. Its level 12, 1d6 is a bit of a weak gain, and mechanics are likely going to just go to harper anyhow. Id remove the AP tax over it. Especially since if youre not into repeaters this isnt a very exciting level, and the tree is trying to promote that.
- Expert Builder is great. But where as other similar abilities are available at level 12 (in various T5 cores) or lv14 (holy sword) mechanics have to wait until 18. Thats a long time, and really hampers builds trying to use it. Because its so limiting, Id like to see the trap cooldown boost expanded to all traps, not just alchemical. So like, even with the new trap rules, mechanics are faster than anyone else, as they always have been. That would be good.
-Capstone, drop the cooldown to 2 mins. A 50% uptime is like having 1d6 dmg 100% of the time, that still doesnt compare to assassins 4d6 or theif acrobats hitting two mobs. But, this heals you, and provides other benefits. So make it 120s, thats the same as some other things like uncanny and has an okay feel... a heal and boost every 2 min. Waiting 3+ mins starts to be like why bother, its just too long and not fun and no one wants to wait that long over their capstone. At least 50/50, 2 min heal, etc... thats pretty workable for what the tree is.

T1:
-Sharpshooter is good all the way up, including T5. Due to Rage(tm) Im not relisting this. Its good. T5 is good. High five, moving on.
-Lacerating Shots is still total lame because it requires a great crossbow. Why so lame. New rule, repeaters get 11/22/33% of bleed. Reg xbows get 25/50/75% of bleed. Greats get 33/66/100% bleed. Everyone can now use this. More high fives. For added awesome, consider having T3 simply add Bleed to your crossbows (the cannith crafted version, 1d8 vs stuff that doesnt not have blood). Because mechanics need some dips too, otherwise they are trap monkeys and no one likes monkeys. Especially not that guy whos going to post after this claiming to like monkeys.
-Thunderstone, you almost cool. Can we get the daze time to scale up like 6/9/12s. Considering you cannot attack the dazed guys, and it takes skill and timing to aim the thing, I dont think having it be a "lock" cc ability if your DC manages to be high enough is bad. Mechanics NEED some good cc for thier trap/ranged/slowdps builds to work. Parking one group while they and the party work on another is fair. Barbs can do this to 1-2 mobs with earsmash, why not mechanics. Plus mechanics can shout thunder, Thunder, THUNDERSTONE HOOOO. So they got that going for them. Just make it not lame please.

T2:
-Good changes.
-Why is skill boost still 1 AP per. I know its useful to mechanics, but its not that useful. Its not better than dmg boost or haste boost or something. Give them a "trap action boost", thats basically what this is. Only do it without an AP tax. Because ap taxes are lame. 1/1/1 is the way to go.
-What, exactly, is Improved Traps going to do with the new formulas above. Just +1 DC per rank? We need very explicit details about the new trap DC, and what you want it to do, and what this will do with it. Please.

T3:
-Wrack Construct, good change, but can we assume the Melee Selector versoin will run off Melee power? It just says ranged power, is taht only for the ranged one?
-Ooze flask is now NOT lame. So yay. But why is the DC still lame. Since the DC only checks the 8 AC portion and thats the part no one is going to care about lets just keep the DC from thunderstone here and start with a 20 base. I mean the least this thing can do is actually do what its supposed to do and drop the sunder effect on a mob. Its single target, give mecahnics a break here, they already gotta sink animation time into using the thing. No reason to hit this one with a low dc.

T4:
-Fletching, awesome, except math. 80% makes 100 bolts into ~466 bolts. I say around because the forum deleted my math RAGE RAGE, okay sorry. But it was around that. It should be 50%/70%/90%. Because 90% is close to making 100 bolts last for 900, which is almost like an artificer stack of 1000. Which is important because anyone whos ever played an arty can tell you exactly how freaking fast bolts go. And this ability should be best used to promote the use of using real, actual legit dropped ammo when necessary. So that a mechanic ISNT reduced to using House D ammo against that nasty champ or something. And those kinds of ammo drop in stacks of 20. Those 20 wont even last 1% of a hp-bag mob's hp. They need to go farther. Making a stack of 100 into a stack of (almost) 1000 is playable, I think. Go 50/70/90.
-Leg Shot bump is good, its high enough in the tree some good dmg is nice to see.
-Where is the thing that makes mechanics have a chance to not use up traps? They got one for arrows but not traps. Trap parts are so hard to get to fill consistent trap use, what are we to do? Are new trap recipeis going to give mechanics better returns? Can Fleching be expanded so we dont use traps up too, just like we dont use arrows? Etc? I had typed more on this but rage. Just think about how many traps you have to disarm to build even one mine, then if you used only one mine per room of mobs how fast youd go into the hole. It needs to be addressed.

T5:
-Mechanical reloader gets the disclaimer that have to play on Lama. Due to how speed effects are split between reload and firing, its impossible to tell if this is enough or not from paper. BUT. Something like this was 100% needed, and its here, and thats fantastic. The ability is great, it may need tuning, but great to see. High five.
-Time Bomb.. what. It has terrible... timing. 1s to set, 2s wait, 6s cc, 11s cd, repeat. Instead, make it 30s cd, and trip mobs for 10s. They are down about the same proportion (33% instead of 30%) but it gives the player more time to act between (10s of cc at a time instead of 6). And it makes the player spam the ability less (instead of spending 1s every 20 to set it, 1s every 30). This means a few things. It means less spam by the player of one ability over and over which is boring. Less time loss to animations meaning more uptime for the character overall. Longer windows of mob cc allow the character greater opportunity to, you know, play and do stuff. I am worried that between alchemical stuff, setting traps, reloading crossbows, and the like mechanics will simply NOT have anytime to actually fight. Itll be moving from one slow animation to another. This is a T5 ability. It should allow freedom to act within the window it provides. That window needs to be longer than 6s (to do more than like reload your repeater and fire once or something) and it needs to recur less frequently (so they have more chances to use other abilities instead of spamming one over and over). The end.
-Sniper... fail. Look adding 1d6 to repeaters is just not T5. I know you want other stuff to be useable... but look: how many named non-repeaters are there. Exactly. THey are your bread and butter. You cant not support them. And 1d6 of sneak to a repeater, 1d6 which isnt even guaranteed to land since its sneak, its just pitiful. Thats not T5. Thats like T1. Needs to change. Make it all crossbows +1W (t5 worthy). Non-repeaters get 2d6 sneak AND increase their sneak range another 5m (just like the core, so its now 40, thats enough to escape ae effects and stuff, worthy for sniping with single shot crossbows which is sniper-y sounding). The great crossbow 19-20 is actually cool, IF it means their innate vorpal trip works on 19s now. If that is so, leave that part, because Im sure someone (not me) will want to make some flavor build to use it, and thats neat the game lets you.
-Rapid Fire.. Rage! And not because my post was deleted. But because whomever did the math and determined repeaters fire "more" bolts so need "less" doublestrike was just plain bad at math and theyre wrong. Go get a stopwatch and look at how many shots per minute a repeater fires vs a bow or crossbow or whatever. And yes, tehre will be some variation, sure. But its not "they shoot 3x as fast" because "thy shoot 3 bolts per mouse click". Its all about total shots over time, and theyre the same (ballpark) as anyone else. You need to remove the doubleshot penalty they get as part of the ranged pass. In which case, Rapid Fire suddenly works alright. I will do more math and stuff if needed, but forum ate it. If you somehow do not believe that 70 (or whatever its up to nowadays) shots per minute with a repeater is the same as with a bow, I dont know what to say, because they are pretty close. I seriously hope you can have someone just log in and look at that because the math the last round of guys used doing doubleshot was waaaay wrong. Repeaters dont deserve that nerf. I get you want the dmg per hit scaled lower since they "front load" their damage to avoid a runaway first strike power curve. But doubleshot shouldnt get caught in that battle, thats not what it really does. By the time you get significant doubleshot, the mobs arent dying in one repeater volley, and the concern that nerf was (wrongly) made for doesnt exist. Thanks.

Ok so, theres the shooting from the hip redo. Overall, tree is better, tree still not there, maybe after some adjustments it could be cool. But part of that will depend on new traps not being lame, and the feel for traps and reload rates being tuned right, and removing the poorly thought out penalty on repeaters. Rage. Thanks for the preview and hope the rage version of feedback was still helpful. Cheers.

[Oxarhamar]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

Increased ammo stacks would be great.

Stacks of 20 is too low.
Crafting stacks of 100 is still too low.
Remember to update the stacks from collectable turnins as well.
Stacks of ammo should be reasonable with the amount of ammo spent.

Sev, please do us a favor. Grab a crafter and craft up 1000 bolts or arrows (take notice the time it takes to do so) then enter a quest and watch how quilky they are consumed.

The time spent crafting is laborious compared to the time it takes to go through them in normal play.

[Caprice]

Hey, no worries, everyone has different goals. It'd be 18/2 for me, though. There are many more things than just Glass Cannon, I just think that's the highest straight damage one. That splash is basically adding an entire additional inventory slot for all kinds of wonderful different effects. Sign me up!
I don't disagree. Even beyond the rune arm options (e.g. Disruption, Banishing, swappable Potency for self-healing, extra augment slots, easy AoE barrel smashing), the free Rapid Reload and the INT-based Spellpoint injection & Magical Training to power KtA and endless Cocoons is a huge boost. You can also squeeze a little more damage out via Enchant Weapons and BE enhancements. I would go that way myself on a repeating crossbow user, but I feel like there are other weapon options now. [Edit: Changed to straight agreement for repeating xbows] At the moment I'm thinking of an Elf/HElf AA Mechanic and staying pure for that.

FWIW I feel like that's also always been true of Artificers in reverse. Rogue 2 Evasion splashes were popular for a long time, especially with the capstones being a bit broken for ages, and even now that the Armor Up changes made Evasion largely irrelevant you still need a Rogue 2 splash if you want to use traps effectively. And historically every staff build needed to splash Rogue 2, even the staff-based Henshin Mystic. As long as those splashes are based on weapon choice and not because a different class is inherently stronger, I am fine with this.

Since "sniper" has been mentioned as a theme, should there be a little more PBS/SA range in the tree than just the very first core? I am not advocating it since I don't really think that it needs it, but I don't look at the tree and think that's a theme.

[Lauf]

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

How about a slightly different solution - make quiver stacks 10k in size instead of 1k
that way players can craft/buy and carry enough ammo for it to stop being a hassle

[btolson]

Core 18, Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.


I'd like to suggest that this be changed in some way.

Either break the boni up and distribute them throughout the tree (into t5 sharpshooter, 12core, elsewhere), or shift the entire package to 12core.

Boni can be split by bonus type (threat range in one place, multiplier in another, extra multiplier for great xbow in a third) and/or weapon type (xbow boni in one place, bow boni in a second place, thrown in a third place).

My concern is that with this huge package bonus @18, there will only be 3 species of mechanic going forward:
20 rogue
18 rogue/2 arti
6 rogue/14 pal

Shifting or distributing the boni will allow for a wider array of builds to be viable.

[Oxarhamar]

How about a slightly different solution - make quiver stacks 10k in size instead of 1k
that way players can craft/buy and carry enough ammo for it to stop being a hassle

That would be great until you realize how long it would take to craft 100 stacks of 100 to fill the 10,000 Quiver.

Do go craft 10,000 arrows or bolts & get back to us on how long it too you.

Then go spend those arrows or bolts questing & tell us the time spent crafting is reasonable in relation to playtime.

[Torvaldsberg]

Would it be possible to have mines self-activate at the end of 60 seconds if they are not tripped sooner?

Nothing worse than setting traps and then seeing that nothing passes quite close enough to trigger them.

It would also be nice(if possible) to have different timer lengths on noisemakers. Maybe one that goes off in 2 seconds, one for 5 seconds, etc. It could give some strategic options not currently available.

[ddorimble]

But at the moment I'm thinking of an Elf/HElf AA Mechanic and staying pure for that.

I think if limiting the discussion to pure Rogue, I'd still prefer Assassin capstone, but take Tier 5 Mechanic.

I have better things to use my Action Boosts on, so I'm really only seriously considering the Passive benefits.

They should consider just putting it on a cooldown and not making it an Action Boost, like Uncanny Dodge et al.

[ddorimble]

My concern is that with this huge package bonus @18, there will only be 3 species of mechanic going forward:
20 rogue
18 rogue/2 arti
6 rogue/14 pal

Well, arguably, Artificer updates may disrupt that. It's hard to say when these class changes come slowly one at a time. Can't really get a big picture of anything.

[Unsmitten]

I like the overall tone of the changes, a big fan of more than one weapon choice for mechanics and making the ranged rogue.

But how about a doubleshot bonus for bows to go along with the speed bonuses you are giving to every other weapon

And why do non repeaters get a + 2 bonus and not every other non repeating weapon like bows and throwing weapons.

also hip flask will the to hit and damage portions of that be expanded like with sharpshooter to other ranged weapons

The tree already gives 10% doubleshot with it's t5 Rapid Fire. You just need to realize that they only posted changes they plan to make. The stuff they didn't change, they didn't post.

[Oxarhamar]

Well, arguably, Artificer updates may disrupt that. It's hard to say when these class changes come slowly one at a time. Can't really get a big picture of anything.

Yeah I see many more possible Mechanic builds that just those 3 listed.

[General_Gronker]

Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.This should be bonus effect to the Tanglefoot Bag that you should be adding with the alchemical vendors that you should be adding to the game. What am I talking about?



Tanglefoot Bag
When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and the goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.

A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. A character capable of spellcasting who is bound by the goo must make a DC 15 Concentration check to cast a spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately.
A Tanglefoot Bag is 50 gp, weighs 4 pounds, and is something any character should be able buy from the appropriate vendor. It SHOULD NOT be an exclusive class-based ability. So the Mechanic ability should add effects to the standard bag, not be the standard bag.



Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.

As with Tanglefoot, this should be bonus to the standard Thunderstone which you should be able to purchase from the appropriate alchemical vendor:



Thunderstone
You can throw this stone as a ranged attack with a range increment of 20 feet. When it strikes a hard surface (or is struck hard), it creates a deafening bang that is treated as a sonic attack. Each creature within a 10-foot-radius spread must make a DC 15 Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 hour. A deafened creature, in addition to the obvious effects, takes a -4 penalty on initiative and has a 20% chance to miscast and lose any spell with a verbal component that it tries to cast.

Since you don’t need to hit a specific target, you can simply aim at a particular 5-foot square. Treat the target square as AC 5.

A Thunderstone is 30 gp, 1 pound, and supposed to be available in shops. So again, this should add oomph to the standard item, not be the only source of the Thunderstone.

Please stop trying to make special things out of the stuff that you are literally supposed to be able to just go buy in a shop in a decent sized town. Tanglefoot bags and Thunderstones are expensive but fairly common, mundane items, NOT special abilities that should require precious enhancements.

More important than those things, however is one simple thing I get from looking at this:

There is a lot of Crossbow stuff. There is not a lot of Mechanic stuff. That seems wrong for something called a Mechanic. What you are presenting here should be called Arbalist. Remove the trap and construct stuff, add more Crossbow stuff, and make it a general tree, like Harper.

Then make an actual Mechanic tree that has the trap construction, construct wracking and the like but includes other important effects like finding and disarming traps in a reduced amount of time. Like you can find traps 10%/20%/30% more quickly, and you can disarm traps 10%/20%/30% more quickly.

Because this isn't a Mechanic tree, this is a crossbowman's tree.

[ArkoHighStar]

The tree already gives 10% doubleshot with it's t5 Rapid Fire. You just need to realize that they only posted changes they plan to make. The stuff they didn't change, they didn't post.
then why do bows not get a speed bonus, they give it everything else.

[UurlockYgmeov]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

I like (generally) what I see. Am concerned about DC's scaling into epics AND non-intelligence build trappers finding this tree useful. Also - having everything scale with ONLY ranged power - well - shouldn't it be whichever is higher (MP vs RP)?

Finally - damage from traps - this is an inventory nightmare - having to have how many different level traps? Why not streamline and simplify (aka KISS) and just have the DC and damage scale to the character setting the trap? Just one trap level (base). Have the Damage and DC scale based upon Character Level and Disable Device Skill (which already factors in INT score)

[Caprice]

I think if limiting the discussion to pure Rogue, I'd still prefer Assassin capstone, but take Tier 5 Mechanic.

I have better things to use my Action Boosts on, so I'm really only seriously considering the Passive benefits.

They should consider just putting it on a cooldown and not making it an Action Boost, like Uncanny Dodge et al.
I thought about things a bit more and I think I agree that the 18/2 version is strictly better for a repeating crossbow user. I edited my response based on that.

Taking the Assassin capstone plus just the ranged Mechanic Tier 5s and the level 18 Core means you've already spent at least 76 AP of your 80, which means you cannot afford Know the Angles. With an INT that's probably 60+, that's sacrificing a guaranteed 12 points of damage a hit - roughly the same as the Assassin capstone gives back in Sneak Attack Damage, which isn't guaranteed. I'd rather stop at Killer (23 AP) or Vorpal SAs core (31 AP) in Assassin, throw the ~5 AP more into Mechanic, and have some left over to spend in Harper on Ranged Power since that's so hard to come by otherwise.

But I had overlooked that it is an Action Boost. I guess that's designed to keep us from triple stacking damage effects, but I agree that makes it very undesirable. Hmm. Dangit, I may have to agree after all! ;-)

[Severlin]

Finally - damage from traps - this is an inventory nightmare - having to have how many different level traps? Why not streamline and simplify (aka KISS) and just have the DC and damage scale to the character setting the trap? Just one trap level (base). Have the Damage and DC scale based upon Character Level and Disable Device Skill (which already factors in INT score)

Several reasons:
~ We want the design space to be able to acquire new traps as a reward.
~ We like the feel of traps being self contained as much as possible.
~ There is no tech to carry character stats onto traps - the Mechanic enhancement is hand scripted special case.
~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

[Cynick]

Noisemaker traps are rendered useless by the change to trap timings.

By the time the trap activates and attracts the nearby mobs, you'll likely still be so close it will spot you as well.

If your Hide and MS skills are high enough to avoid this, then you wont be using a noisemaker anyway, just sneak past.

[Silverleafeon]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.

I likie.



~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.

Very good, its important to make each class unique as possible.



~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

The only way I can see Rune Arm feat granted is as an inate in the upcoming Artificer tree. Just like turn undead, bard songs, lay on hands, etc are granted in thus manner.



We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:


Good job and good lucki PC of 2015!



~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.

Seen this done already, thank you for fixing that scroll usage.



~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.

Agreed



~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

Please do.

Hey how about that adding it to the Purple Dragon Knight Vendor (possibly for higher favor) and House D favor vendor?


As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

Please do, make amount of drop 500ish arrow/bolts/thrower instead of the lame 20ish.
Or how about {50 units * treasure level} ?

Scroll could be increased as well such as {1d6 units * treasure level} ?



Dropped consumables are all so lame, except for potions.
Wands are mostly worthless so quickly due to low caster levels, etc...

[UurlockYgmeov]

Could not resist this one, although not original:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bllBC-ThwjQ


:P

Leomund's Secure Shelter for the win!

[jaggyjag]

Bravo!

I like the proposed tree, there isn't any I would changed, not one thing.

I've been through the wilderness so to speak, in that I have had a active Mechanic character/s since it was available. It has been rough and sometimes even unrewarding, watching our traps have so little effect and watching our role usurped by so many splashes that all we were left with was the ability to to do less DPS and pray for a construct to show up.

But this tree is well worth the wait, and it is properly weighted to encourage players to take large levels of Mechanic and rewards them for that choice.

I was a bit put off about the capstone, but looking it could be great fun, I was also a bit surprised by the inclusion of Bows, but you know what? I can already see some great flavor opportunities and some cool meta-game builds.

Sev, this is excellent, so much so that you could drop it live today.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Hey how about that adding it to the Purple Dragon Knight Vendor (possibly for higher favor) and House D favor vendor?



Please do, make amount of drop 500ish instead of the lame 20ish.
Or how about {50 units * treasure level} ?


Dropped consumables are all so lame, except for potions.
Wands are mostly worthless so quickly due to low caster levels, etc...

would be nice - but if cannith crafting gets a pass - then not as necessary.

the 20 each bolt/arrow is really dated now.

yep - those haste lv5 potions that drop in EE lv30 content (and the protection pots) as well. Why not some wand of shield (or nightshield) lv20? :P

[jaggyjag]

Mechanics will still have the ability to add intelligence bonuses to ranged and thrown damage? yes? no?

[Caprice]

Mechanics will still have the ability to add intelligence bonuses to ranged and thrown damage? yes? no?
Currently it is just crossbows and thrown, isn't it? Or is it working on other ranged weapons too?

[UurlockYgmeov]

Several reasons:
~ We want the design space to be able to acquire new traps as a reward.
~ We like the feel of traps being self contained as much as possible.
~ There is no tech to carry character stats onto traps - the Mechanic enhancement is hand scripted special case.
~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

thank you for the reply.

streamline the levels of traps just into one base model. can (and should) have many models. still self contained - just instead of weak, small, average, large, deadly, noisemaker there is just one base model of each type of trap(Mechanical, Fire, Electric, Acid, Cold, Sonic, Force, Unholy, Holy plus noisemaker). Thus when it is crafted (or rather when it is set) the damage and DC would be scaled according to the character setting it.

The Damage would be level scaled by disable device skill used like spell or melee power. The DC would be set normally. No stats are figured into it, unless you are referring to stats in the generic sense rather than the ability stat sense.


Love the idea of acquiring new trap (models/styles) as reward! kudos! Yes, please do include Spell wards that should be able to be set by Mechanics and or Archmagi!

I understand the idea of self contained traps - but since in practicality 99% of traps are used by the character that made them. But if you want to self contain them - then use a base model and have it

And yes, hand scripting. It is what makes this game so unique - and so hard to update. I understand the lack of desire to tackle ten year old spaghetti code, but streamlining this would make going forward so much easier. Maybe schedule a full trap pass for '16?

[Silverleafeon]

Several reasons:
~ We want the design space to be able to acquire new traps as a reward.

OK


~ We like the feel of traps being self contained as much as possible.

Nods less chance of shadow bugs.



~ There is no tech to carry character stats onto traps - the Mechanic enhancement is hand scripted special case.

Nods


~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

Definitely merited on last point.

I would like to say, thanks for communicating.

We fear what we do not understand...

[flagged]

I am a little concerned about the lack of increases in "Ranged power" in the proposal.

Something along the lines of what the harper tree can provide, or the Fighting lines provide to players using THF, or SWF.

[Robai]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.
...
Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.
...

Why Artificer matters in the Rogue Mechanic tree?
What are Artificer talents?

Suggestion:
Consider making auto-disable option in Rogue Mechanic tree (probably Tier 4).
For example:
1) search (or auto-search) trap box first
2) 1 sec timer
3) then auto-disable (with some penalty, so yes, it can explode)
4) that's why auto-disable option should be made as toggle

[flagged]

Currently it is just crossbows and thrown, isn't it? Or is it working on other ranged weapons too?

Wiki say crossbows and thrown, so does tooltip, don't know if the bug for bows is still running there was on that bumped Bows last year. I never saw much point in it myself.

[Caprice]

I am a little concerned about the lack of increases in "Ranged power" in the proposal.

Something along the lines of what the harper tree can provide, or the Fighting lines provide to players using THF, or SWF.
There's 10 Ranged Power in the proposed changes:

Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
This is 10 RP in Tier 4, which is more generous than usual. Most of the Melee Power boosts in the other PrEs come as 10 MP in the capstone.

[Severlin]

I am a little concerned about the lack of increases in "Ranged power" in the proposal.

Something along the lines of what the harper tree can provide, or the Fighting lines provide to players using THF, or SWF.

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

[Livmo]

Why Artificer matters in the Rogue Mechanic tree?
What are Artificer talents?
e

I play a pure arty and we do make traps. My favorites are Noisemakers and Deadly Fire Traps. I make others too. We are auto granted the Trapmaking feat at level 4:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking

[Thar]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

if not in the tree end result will be a lot less than the melee power revisions so not enough (pending seeing what the epic levels and ed cores give, but i wouldn't expect more than the melee power given today).

not saying because it has to be equal but normal ranged is gimp unless your moncher with a high attack rate.

[Caprice]

I play a pure arty and we do make traps. My favorites are Noisemakers and Deadly Fire Traps. I make others too. We are auto granted the Trapmaking feat at level 4:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Trapmaking
Yes, but unless we splash Rogue 2 we are stuck with 50% of Disable Device as our trap DC. That limits them a lot.

[Blackheartox]

Can we get a trap proposal thread?
I want to see what you guys plan overall.
Keep in mind, damage traps arent popular.
Popular are the cc ones, so anything that brings in a doze of cc, and additionally helpless, is wonderful.
Esp with the change to trap setting time and activation

[Caprice]

if not in the tree end result will be a lot less than the melee power revisions so not enough (pending seeing what the epic levels and ed cores give, but i wouldn't expect more than the melee power given today).

not saying because it has to be equal but normal ranged is gimp unless your moncher with a high attack rate.
*points out the 10 Ranged Power available in tier 4, via the proposed new Fletching enhancement*
It should probably be in the capstone, but it is there.

[flagged]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

That's fine Sev but it will gimp the class going out the gate, just look at the Melee power increases all the recent passes have given out in cores and tiers. By neglecting to add that to the Mechanic you would neuter any ability to be a effective "sniper" the stated goal of the proposed changes.

You don't want to make all these excellent changes and they render them all second-class by eliminating any increases to "ranged power". Otherwise any effort your team will be wasted as classes need to be competitive with each other and the introduction of Melee power and Ranged power require that a chacter specializing in one or the other has the chance to acquire it.

Think about it, any of the recent class passes were able to increases their Melee power with feats and with enhancments. While in this proposal the mechanic has neither feat or enhancement avenues available to increase it. It's a no-go, you will end up having wasted the time and work.

[flagged]

*points out the 10 Ranged Power available in tier 4, via the proposed new Fletching enhancement*
It should probably be in the capstone, but it is there.

I did see that Caprice but consider the absence of any ranged power feats, do you think that 10 is enough?

[flagged]

*points out the 10 Ranged Power available in tier 4, via the proposed new Fletching enhancement*
It should probably be in the capstone, but it is there.

Do you think it's a mistake to have it in tier 4? I could see where that could lead to some splash poaching, maybe it would be better to go +3 ranged power per core after 1? That would arrive and 15 and prevent the class from being gimped or watered down out the gate.

[flagged]

Mechanics will still have the ability to add intelligence bonuses to ranged and thrown damage? yes? no?

Yeah I would like to have this cleared up as well, it would be a pretty big deal.

[Caprice]

I did see that Caprice but consider the absence of any ranged power feats, do you think that 10 is enough?
In the short term, no, it is not enough to make Mechanic competitve DPS with Monkchers or with melees. I did not expect to see more than that because we have been told that a Ranged balance pass is in the works. I hope that some Ranged Power will come in with the individual ranged feats so that more is available in heroic levels, not just epics, but I am willing to see those changes before I make judgement on them. I think it will be a difficult balance to find because I believe the devs need to make significant improvements to Artificers and Mechanics without significantly improving Monkchers and perhaps not giving much to bow Rangers either. If they gave Mechanics 50 Ranged Power or whatever it would take to make this truly competitive DPS without considering the other changes I expect to see, then Turbine would have to come back and revise this revision almost immediately (well, in a few months).

FWIW personally I am willing to see Ranged damage overall be less than Melee damage overall because the risk of being in melee is still higher (even with the PRR/MRR changes) than it is for fighting at range.

[Caprice]

Do you think it's a mistake to have it in tier 4? I could see where that could lead to some splash poaching, maybe it would be better to go +3 ranged power per core after 1? That would arrive and 15 and prevent the class from being gimped or watered down out the gate.
"Mistake" is too strong a word. I wonder if it will come back to haunt us later. Rogue 4 does lock someone out of taking both Holy Sword and 10K Stars, which would be my immediate concern, but I suspect that someone is going to find a sneaky way to "abuse" it. There are a lot of shuriken builds with enough Rogue levels to take it, for instance, who might count themselves satisfied with losing the extra 3 DEX from the new Shadow Dodge in exchange for 10 RP.

[Blackheartox]

Yeah I would like to have this cleared up as well, it would be a pretty big deal.

dunno, you get it in harper.
Shouldnt really be a issue unless you dont think kta is worth it, spending points in harper doesnt feel dirty

[Qhualor]

~ Changes to this trap system also touch the system for regular dungeon traps so any mistake in hand scripting can affect the damage of all traps in dungeons.

Sev~

O.o

[Blackheartox]

"Mistake" is too strong a word. I wonder if it will come back to haunt us later. Rogue 4 does lock someone out of taking both Holy Sword and 10K Stars, which would be my immediate concern, but I suspect that someone is going to find a sneaky way to "abuse" it. There are a lot of shuriken builds with enough Rogue levels to take it, for instance, who might count themselves satisfied with losing the extra 3 DEX from the new Shadow Dodge in exchange for 10 RP.

Shuri builds lose doubleshoot from t 5 former for some dps, i dont know if the trade off is good since the alt way to build a good chucker was to rely on dshoot since we can now create builds that have a better uptime of stars thrown with dshoot then 10 k.
10 k really isnt a must pick for chuckers for a long time.
I see couple nice repete and gxbow builds currently

[Silverleafeon]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~

Sounds like a long welcome change.


By the way, is there any chance at all of slightly lowering the search animation time?

This is something that affects overall party quality of life.
The longer we wait for a trapper with nothing to do but stare at walls...

[flagged]

dunno, you get it in harper.
Shouldnt really be a issue unless you dont think kta is worth it, spending points in harper doesnt feel dirty

yes you could get it there, but for none Harper folks and others who wont have the points, it was pretty core stuff having it on the Mechanic.

I don't see all 6 cores covered in the proposal so it is most likely still there I would just like to see it clarified.

[flagged]

"Mistake" is too strong a word. I wonder if it will come back to haunt us later. Rogue 4 does lock someone out of taking both Holy Sword and 10K Stars, which would be my immediate concern, but I suspect that someone is going to find a sneaky way to "abuse" it. There are a lot of shuriken builds with enough Rogue levels to take it, for instance, who might count themselves satisfied with losing the extra 3 DEX from the new Shadow Dodge in exchange for 10 RP.

If it was attached to the cores it would be a decent barrier against that wouldn't it, and it could arrive at a Melee power of 12 or 15.

[FestusHood]

Can we get a trap proposal thread?
I want to see what you guys plan overall.
Keep in mind, damage traps arent popular.
Popular are the cc ones, so anything that brings in a doze of cc, and additionally helpless, is wonderful.
Esp with the change to trap setting time and activation

The reason elemental traps aren't that popular is because they just don't do that much damage. This is especially true of the grenades. If the epic versions did as much damage as say, the bottled fireballs you could get from the anniversary cards, they would be pretty cool.

[ddorimble]

I don't see all 6 cores covered in the proposal so it is most likely still there I would just like to see it clarified.

All these Rogue proposal threads have worked that only changes are called out. If it's not mentioned, it's not changed.

[FestusHood]

Really like the looks of this. The only thing i would change, and this is totally selfish, but it would be nice if the expert builder could be moved to the level 12 core. This is entirely due to my desire to try that along with the sniper shot from deepwood stalker in ranger with a great crossbow. Might be overpowered, i don't know. Imagine a great crossbow being overpowered? Nah.

[Caprice]

If it was attached to the cores it would be a decent barrier against that wouldn't it, and it could arrive at a Melee power of 12 or 15.
Yes. I have no problem at all with your suggestion. I don't think I know what the "right" target number is though. Since Turbine put in 10 I assume that they want to balance MP and RP to have similar "opportunity" costs, but we'll see how the rest of the balance pass works out.

[FlaviusMaximus]

18/2: constant +2d6 +2d8 from Glass Cannon
versus
20: constant +2 damage, +2d6 Sneak Attacks, +1 all relevant class skills, decent panic button & burst DPS ability, +2 to all DCs for abilities in tree

I agree that 18/2 will be popular, but I think the capstone isn't terrible either and I think I could justify to myself staying pure.


You're right. I wasn't fully considering what already exists in the mechanic capstone and was primarily looking at what was added. I removed my initial statement.

[Caprice]

Shuri builds lose doubleshoot from t 5 former for some dps, i dont know if the trade off is good since the alt way to build a good chucker was to rely on dshoot since we can now create builds that have a better uptime of stars thrown with dshoot then 10 k.
10 k really isnt a must pick for chuckers for a long time.
I see couple nice repete and gxbow builds currently
I wasn't saying that was the main concern, just that it was the first thing that came to mind. Besides while getting enough Dshoot to make 10K bad is certainly achievable, it does take some effort whereas 10K stars is an easy click-and-drag for any Monk 6. There have been some prominent chuckers that based off Rogue (e.g. several of the Meteor Shower line) for the DEX from Acrobat and to combine SAs with the extreme rate at which star attacks happen. For the most part they went Wiz5+ and tier 5 EK for full BAB, because BAB has an oversized effect on throwing rate (something I hope we might see fixed in the Ranged Pass) but I am not sure if the tier 5 bonuses here outweigh that - might be enough. I would love to see GXbows become a FotM though, that would be hilarious.

[Cleanincubus]

Until this makes it to Lamannia, I'll reserve judgement, but right now I'm not seeing anything that makes Mechanics anything less than a nerfed Artificer.

Could we at least get an increase to Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair? Or a speed increase to do those skills? It would at least give some reason to pick Mechanic over just going Artificer.

[gwonbush]

Until this makes it to Lamannia, I'll reserve judgement, but right now I'm not seeing anything that makes Mechanics anything less than a nerfed Artificer.

Could we at least get an increase to Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair? Or a speed increase to do those skills? It would at least give some reason to pick Mechanic over just going Artificer.

Well, you get +1 crit range and multiplier over artificer for starters.

[Caprice]

You're right. I wasn't fully considering what already exists in the mechanic capstone and was primarily looking at what was added. I removed my initial statement.
Whereas I missed that Hip Flask is an Action Boost, so it competes directly with other boosts that may be more useful in general. I've now edited that post you linked to make this clear. I think that's enough to convince me that the 18/2 is strictly better as a repeating xbow user.

I am trying to find an AA bow version that I like but it takes too many AP or sacrifices too much. Putting the critical bonus at 18 locks out the deeper splashes that would make a bow build work better, but I assume that's the point.

[Myrddinman]

Well, you get +1 crit range and multiplier over artificer for starters.

True...but you can still splash 2 Arty with that level 18 core. I still don't see a huge benefit for Capstone over splash, which is disappointing.

[Unsmitten]

Sev,
Over all, I think this tree will be great, BUT I have a couple issues with it.

First, the DCs for Tanglefoot, Thunderstone and Ooze Flask will still be to weak for EE content, adding epic level*2 like another suggested or at least epic level to it would make them viable.

My other issue is with this adding bows to the tree. Personally,(and everyone will not share this view) I think it should only be for crossbows and throwing like it has been. That is, unless(If-then) the Arcane archer tree is opened up to crossbows. Another, more fitting idea is to allow bows to benefit from the sniper hit/damage and Fletcher(and Rapid Fire as they can now). Instead exclude bows from the crit profile updates in the core. Also, I would like to see the cores beefed up even more then you plan.

Core I should be as it is, but add(like Deepwood Stalker) 5 SA/PBS range with each core/no max range at Capstone

Core II DC should be (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level(*2) + Intelligence Modifier Negates)

Core III Change name to Improved Sight, and combine the Int to damage with xbow/thrower with the 50% increased search/detect range.

Core IV move core 5 to 4 and read as follows. Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for crossbows and thrown weapons.

Core V could be Master Arbalest, and read as follows. You gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with crossbows and thrown weapons. As well as a +1 Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows(in addition the the bonus granted from Expert Builder)

Capstone I would propose get rid of the dodge bonus, replace it with a static +5 ranged power and make it no longer an action boost.


Obviously this is How I would like to see it, but for sure the DC of the enhancement based flasks will suffer in EE if they are not boosted.

[FuryFlash]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

All around good stuff here, although I noticed that despite making them a "sniper", there has been no additional increase to ranged sneak attack/PBS range. The 5 meters that the first core gives is OK, but I would say that a sniper should have a little more. Now if anyone would like to correct me and say that this is actually good enough as is, that would be good because I don't really have any experience playing crossbow rogues.

Something that I have noticed in the past to be a huge problem with great crossbows is that they are somewhat buggy with attack speed which can make you lose shots for no reason. Haven't tested in awhile, will head on now and see.

From memory:
This is with all attack speed feats for crossbows at fairly high levels. Using a great crossbow, I hold down fire. The shots start off shooting normally, but eventually the bolts start firing way too late. They become out of sync with the crossbow shooting animation. IIRC, the sound goes at the same time as the bolt, not the crossbow. Once the gap gets to about a half second maybe, shots start disappearing.

Could anyone else confirm this problem/ if they have seen this before? I might just be me. :D

Anyway, good changes, especially like how traps will be better. This is long overdue.

[Urjak]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

*snip*


Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


Sev~

Looks all very interesting ... does that mean that (in combination with all the other available attack speed bonuses of course), it will finally be possible to break through that seemingly hard-coded ~84 attacks per minute limit for throwing weapons? So far various tests of different people (including myself) have shown that once one reaches those approx. 84 attacks/minute, additional attack speed bonuses don't help - but since this would affect the time needed for drawing aka "reloading" => would that finally stack and thus make it possible to get over those ~84 apm?

[Urjak]

All around good stuff here, although I noticed that despite making them a "sniper", there has been no additional increase to ranged sneak attack/PBS range. The 5 meters that the first core gives is OK, but I would say that a sniper should have a little more. Now if anyone would like to correct me and say that this is actually good enough as is, that would be good because I don't really have any experience playing crossbow rogues.


Aw, forgot about that one in my previous post - the 5 additional meters are not enough to comfortably deal ranged sneak attack - this should be more like +3 meters / core

[maddong]

Looks all very interesting ... does that mean that (in combination with all the other available attack speed bonuses of course), it will finally be possible to break through that seemingly hard-coded ~84 attacks per minute limit for throwing weapons? So far various tests of different people (including myself) have shown that once one reaches those approx. 84 attacks/minute, additional attack speed bonuses don't help - but since this would affect the time needed for drawing aka "reloading" => would that finally stack and thus make it possible to get over those ~84 apm?

I'm thinking not since I don't think quick draw makes a difference in the cap rate and that is "drawing speed". I'm guessing every attack style caps at 3x bab0 attack rate.

[Severlin]

All these Rogue proposal threads have worked that only changes are called out. If it's not mentioned, it's not changed.

This is correct. This lists additions and changes.

Sev~

[blerkington]

Hi,

There's an awful lot of power in the Tier 3 core (Expert Builder) relative to its cost.

Thanks.

[LuKaSu]

Hi,

There's an awful lot of power in the Tier 3 core (Expert Builder) relative to its cost.

Thanks.

It's not Tier 3, it's the level 18 Core. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements) They just didn't mention the cores that they didn't change.

[Myrddinman]

Hi,

There's an awful lot of power in the Tier 3 core (Expert Builder) relative to its cost.

Thanks.

It's actually Tier 4...Sev only listed the changes

[blerkington]

It's not Tier 3, it's the level 18 Core. (http://ddowiki.com/page/Mechanic_enhancements) They just didn't mention the cores that they didn't change.


It's actually Tier 4...Sev only listed the changes

Hi,

Thanks for that, guys.

[HastyPudding]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:


The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.


Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.



Core Abilities


Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.



Tier One

Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.



Tier Two


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)


Tier Three


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.


Tier Four


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.


Tier Five


Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


Sev~

----On traps:
Yes! I used to love crafting traps and grenades to play around with in quests. My artificer still has a stack of noisemakers in his inventory for fun purposes. Now that traps might actually be useful, I can't wait to see how they've been updated.

----On the core abilities:
+2 critical multiplier and +1 threat range with great crossbows? Yes please! That's a 17-20/x4 right off the bat with a standard great crossbow. I've been waiting for a long time for great crossbows to be even remotely useful.

I never liked the mechanic capstone much. Hip Flask seems more of a flavor ability than anything else. Without many sources of ranged power, all of these '200% scaling with ranged power' seems rather trivial. Personally, I'd love to see some more bonuses to point blank range's maximum range.

----On the tiers:
I like the fact that great crossbows gain double the bonuses from sharpshooter, considering they truly need it. Adding thrown weapons to sharpshooter was also a good idea, for build diversity.

I also like that the +10 ranged power is in tier 4; this makes it deep enough where some builds splashing rogue won't take advantage of it, but makes it readily available for artificer/rogue combinations. However, I think it would be better to be +5 ranged power for repeating crossbows, bows, and thrown weapons and +10 for non-repeating crossbows.

Mechanical Reloader sounds awesome for non-repeating crossbows. Great crossbows have been unused because they are severely lacking in attack speed compared to repeaters and thrown builds. However, I would make the bonus 10% for repeaters and bows, 20% for thrown weapons, and 40% for non-repeating crossbows.

Will Time Bomb scale with ranged power, as well?

----Suggestions:
I like the vorpal for great crossbows on a 19-20, however...that makes the great crossbow's redeeming feature, the knock down on a roll of 20, rather pointless. I'm not quite sure what to say about this.

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea of the increased non-repeating crossbow damage. +7 damage over repeaters, bows, and thrown weapons really doesn't seem like that much of an increase, considering repeaters -- the most used mechanic weapon -- attack three times per animation, negating the great crossbow's superior base damage and slow reload speed. I guess I'd have to see this in action with some hard numbers before making a formal opinion on this.

[Dreppo]

I like the vorpal for great crossbows on a 19-20, however...that makes the great crossbow's redeeming feature, the knock down on a roll of 20, rather pointless. I'm not quite sure what to say about this.

Not sure what you mean by this. If vorpalling on 19-20 makes knockdown on 20 useless, then vorpalling on 20 (what every weapon including great crossbow gets now) would also make knockdown on 20 useless, wouldn't it? Mind you, I'm interpreting this enhancement as having the same effect as Perfect Single Weapon Fighting, i.e. redefining vorpal to mean 19-20 rather than just 20, rather than actually granting the weapon the vorpal property. But even if it did grant the weapon the vorpal property, or if you were using a great crossbow that already has the vorpal property (which you can do today), then knockdown on 20 is still not useless. Remember that the vorpal weapon property doesn't always kill the enemy outright; it just deals extra damage if the enemy has more than 1000 HP.

[Ayseifn]

Wow, some big changes here.

Really hard to give feedback without playing with it though, these rogue changes may finally get me to download the Lam client to try some things out.

[Qezuzu]

What will the new traps recipes look like/cost?

[FuryFlash]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.


Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


Sev~




----Suggestions:
I like the vorpal for great crossbows on a 19-20, however...that makes the great crossbow's redeeming feature, the knock down on a roll of 20, rather pointless. I'm not quite sure what to say about this.



It was my understanding that great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20, as in their vorpal threat range was being increased by one, as per the feat Perfect Single Weapon Fighting:

"While Single Weapon Fighting, your vorpal threat range is increased by +1 (instead of scoring Vorpal hits only on a roll of 20, you score them on a roll of 19-20, assuming you confirm the critical hit.)"

If this is the case, HastyPudding, it would not be making the knockdown feature pointless. In fact, it would be the opposite, since supposedly it would then happen on a 19-20 (assuming it is a Vorpal ability, not just intended to be only ever on 20.) Either way, this should not affect the knockdown poorly.

Could we have confirmation on this for the Sniper enhancement? There has obviously been some confusion on the wording used. Some players are taking this as a Vorpal (instant-kill) ability, while others are taking it as expanding the vorpal threat range.

Thanks

[nibel]

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

At release, Conjure Bolts gave us 100 bolts. A dev (Steelstar?) found it was annoying while playing their artificer, and raised it to 1000 in a sneak buff (not on release notes). Once we found this, we lobbied for the same buff being given to Flame Arrow, and now it gives 500 ammo as well.

Please, make random loot ammo also drop AT LEAST in stacks of 100, make all ammo stackable up to 1000, and raise the capability of all quivers tenfold (so 1k quivers now hold 10k). I would also ask to make all craftable ammo to craft 1000 of them, but that would probably be on the plans for the Cannith Craft pass.

Also, while I'm in dreamland, can we also have a cut on ammo weight? Some of my ranged characters (the dex, int, and wis-based ones) really suffer during low levels because of ammo weight. At high heroics you usually have a colorless slot to put extra strength, and the tomes kick in, but at levels 1-11 if I fill my quivers, I'm at least under medium load constantly.

[Myrddinman]

Not sure what you mean by this. If vorpalling on 19-20 makes knockdown on 20 useless, then vorpalling on 20 (what every weapon including great crossbow gets now) would also make knockdown on 20 useless, wouldn't it? Mind you, I'm interpreting this enhancement as having the same effect as Perfect Single Weapon Fighting, i.e. redefining vorpal to mean 19-20 rather than just 20, rather than actually granting the weapon the vorpal property. But even if it did grant the weapon the vorpal property, or if you were using a great crossbow that already has the vorpal property (which you can do today), then knockdown on 20 is still not useless. Remember that the vorpal weapon property doesn't always kill the enemy outright; it just deals extra damage if the enemy has more than 1000 HP.

I believe this just means it knockdowns on 19-20.

[flagged]

Hi,

There's an awful lot of power in the Tier 3 core (Expert Builder) relative to its cost.

Thanks.

The cost is being a mechanic mate. They are so far behind the curve that they are endangered, take a look at the other core threes of barbs, pallys, and bards you will see that it is less powerful but still a excellent improvement.

[flagged]

I believe this just means it knockdowns on 19-20.

Well the 19-20 vorpal of PSWF is comparative and it works on any weapon, so the scale of a capston creating the vorpal on a 19-20 for just Great crossbows is ideal. There are so few named one in game and by the time Thunderforged ones are taken into account the mechanic is struggling in end game.

All and all a excellent idea.

And this is without even considering the rate of fire issue, before anyone feels inclined to say these excellent Great crossbow changes are OP, I would ask that you take the time in game to pick one up and use it, just to remind you all just how slow the rate of fire for a great is. Then compare that to the number of attacks you can execute using SWF, or really any other form.

[maddong]

I wouldn't move the threat/multiplier bonuses to core 12--it would be too good (ranged holy sword plus sneak attack d6/traps/improved evasion/run speed). That bonus to me makes this the most interesting rogue tree since the acrobat and arguably the assassin trees are inferior to 3 levels of bard from a dps perspective.

[Slasheboy]

Dear Severlin, please consider pushing the xbow profencies down one step.
Current: T1:GXB T3 (lvl6):Repeating LXB T4 (lvl12):Repeating HXB
Proposed: T1:GXB T2 (lvl3):Repeating LXB T4 (lvl6):Repeating HXB

After all, artificers get all of these at lvl 1 plus magical training, rapid reload, and the ability to conjure bolts.

A simple suggestion if you don't want mechanics to conjure bolts, why not make all ranged equipment not require ammunition? They would simply fire vanilla ammo when no bolts or arrows are equipped. If coding wise its too difficult, give all classes a feat named "Use normal ammo" which allows us to conjure vanilla ammunition called Basic arrow/bolt/throwing axe/throwing dagger (split into subfeats for each category), and is coded as a single arrow/bolt/axe/dagger that is 100% repeating. This allows all ranged classes to not have a storage problem. In the same vein, why not make the conjured artificer bolts 100% returning?

[Slasheboy]

I just realized you don't even need a feat, just sell 100% returning arrows/bolts/throwers in the shops and also provide them to new characters. Problem solved.

[blerkington]

The cost is being a mechanic mate. They are so far behind the curve that they are endangered, take a look at the other core threes of barbs, pallys, and bards you will see that it is less powerful but still a excellent improvement.

Hi,

Some of the other posters cleared up a misunderstanding for me.

I'd misread the initial post and thought that the core under discussion was available much earlier.

If it's not available until level 18 it's a completely different story.

Thanks.

[draven1]

What I want to see on new epic mechanic :D


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnYkwBDzlDw

[Slasheboy]

I see that fletching is a T4, which assuming to make space for it, the grenades aren't "linked" enhancements.

If so, may I make a suggestion:

Please give us Sniper Shot from Deepwood Stalker Core 3, putting it in either T2, or maybe T3 and bumping Ooze flask down to a T2.
For a class that gets so many ranged sneak attack die, we need ways to apply those SA dice.

If you really really want to keep sniper shot a Deepwood only ability, please consider a grenade that doesn't arc (maybe a special shot that explodes on hit?) that makes enemies bluffed without requiring a DC check.
If not, consider bumping legshot down to (+1W/+2W/+3W) but also bluffs and down the cd to 6 secs. I would even settle for (+0.5W/+1W/+1.5W).

Please, help us rogues to be able to apply our SA dice even when we have aggro (especially for soloers who have no one to shed aggro to).

I really do not want to have to always dip 6 levels into Ranger just for Sniper Shot for xbow archers to be viable.

And consider taking away rapid reload entirely. Its an unnecessary feat tax for crossbow archers. Or if I can be greedy, put it in one of the cores. Like l've said earlier, artificer level one auto grants so many things.

Regarding the restriction of no runearms for mechanics, how about just allowing us to get the imbue? We need a way to deal with non-sneak attack able monsters. Or just let us sneak attack them at 33% damage (1d2 per SA dice). The game is fulled to the brim with undeads, constructs and elementals after all.

[Slasheboy]

Finally, great job with all the new T5s, Severlin.

I'm really excited to play with all of them, especially mechanical reloader. I hope you put this enhancement into the arty tree as well.

Maybe put some of the speed bonuses (or more speed bonuses) on lacerating shot for non-repeating/great crossbows? This would go a long way into making them potentially viable once again.

Dear Turbine, please don't poach Severlin for LotRO. This game will just fester and die.

[Cleanincubus]

Envision having epic levels and ED cores providing Ranged Power similarly to how they provide Melee Power.

Sev~
Single Weapon and Two-handed Weapon players can get up to 10 Melee Power via their respective feats... before hitting level 20. The Vanguard Trees have a Tier 2 Action Boost for up to +30 Melee Power. They then have a Tier 3 Enhancement for up to +9 Melee Power on a Stunning Shield/Blow hit ("Follow Up".) Followed by a +10 from the Tier 5 Enhancement "Armored Strength". All before Epic levels and Epic Destinies.

Yet you (Developers) give a, clearly, ranged Enhancement Tree no Ranged Power, until some theoretical Epic levels and Epic Destiny (that don't even currently exist)? Scaling to 200% Ranged Power, when the Ranged Power is 0, is still 0.

If this is any indication to the "upcoming" Ranged Pass (promised even before the complete changes to the Enhancement systems), then some serious development time needs to be allotted to it, before any more Enhancement changes are made. The idea of "flavor" is thrown out, when the "flavor" is only actually viable in the game... in Epic levels. Ya know, because there are 312 quests before getting into Epic content and all.

[Silverleafeon]

Dear Turbine, please don't poach Severlin for LotRO. This game will just fester and die.

Considering the rate at which LotRO consumes our directors, I would think Sev might be wise to think twice about moving...

[Xionanx]

Is it just me or is Rogue Mechanic now a better archer then a Ranger?

Seriously, I like the inclusion of NON crossbows in the enhancements, thats a WIN IMO. But the addition of giving ALL ammo 80% returning..

Of course you do know that AA and DWS now have some hard shoes to fill with that when you finally get around to do their enhancement pass.. everyone is going to look at 80% ammo returning and think.. man.. shouldn't rangers have that?

[Dreppo]

Single Weapon and Two-handed Weapon players can get up to 10 Melee Power via their respective feats... before hitting level 20. The Vanguard Trees have a Tier 2 Action Boost for up to +30 Melee Power. They then have a Tier 3 Enhancement for up to +9 Melee Power on a Stunning Shield/Blow hit ("Follow Up".) Followed by a +10 from the Tier 5 Enhancement "Armored Strength". All before Epic levels and Epic Destinies.

Yet you (Developers) give a, clearly, ranged Enhancement Tree no Ranged Power, until some theoretical Epic levels and Epic Destiny (that don't even currently exist)? Scaling to 200% Ranged Power, when the Ranged Power is 0, is still 0.

If this is any indication to the "upcoming" Ranged Pass (promised even before the complete changes to the Enhancement systems), then some serious development time needs to be allotted to it, before any more Enhancement changes are made. The idea of "flavor" is thrown out, when the "flavor" is only actually viable in the game... in Epic levels. Ya know, because there are 312 quests before getting into Epic content and all.

Didn't read the first post in this thread, did you? There's 10 ranged power in the tree. To go with the ranged attack speed increase, the ranged crit range increase, and ranged crit multiplier increase, I'd say the tree provides quite a lot of ranged DPS.

And when they do the ranged pass, while most of the ranged power will come in epics -- just like most melee power does -- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

[gwonbush]

Is it just me or is Rogue Mechanic now a better archer then a Ranger?

Seriously, I like the inclusion of NON crossbows in the enhancements, thats a WIN IMO. But the addition of giving ALL ammo 80% returning..

Of course you do know that AA and DWS now have some hard shoes to fill with that when you finally get around to do their enhancement pass.. everyone is going to look at 80% ammo returning and think.. man.. shouldn't rangers have that?

Yeah, and rangers have 100% returning arrows. They may only be +1, but the amount of effort a ranger has to put into arrows is creating their infinite supply when they log in for the day.

[ComicRelief]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.
*snip*

Tier One


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.

*snip*

Tier Two

Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.

*snip*

Tier Three

Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.

*snip*

Tier Four

Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.

*snip*

Tier Five

Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
*snip*
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.

Sev~


*snip*
We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.
*snip*

Sev~


Some thoughts:

1) Fletching v. Conjure Bolts: I have always been an advocate for mechanics to have an EN "similar to conjure bolts". I also agree that "conjuring" isn't really in the rogue baileywick, per se, so the "fletching" proposal is good. However, seeing as how arcane archers get a tier one EN for 100% returning arrows, and with some house D favor, you can buy 75% returning ammo, I think it should be 75%/85%/100% - it is, after all, a tier 4 EN. But if you really think 100% is just too much, then OK, make it 95%. If you're going to insist on keeping the first level at 50%, then make it 50%/75%/100%.

2a) Sharpshooter - Tiers 1 thru 4: I understand why repeating x-bows are only given +1 damage (even though I disagree with it). However, I see no reason why bows and thrown weapons are not grouped with non-repeating x-bows. If you're going to include bows and thrown, then group them with non-repeaters and give them +2 damage, as well. i.e. let all of the (1) shot per round ranged weapons have +2 damage. Doing the math, repeaters would be +4/+4 (hit/damage) and all other thrown weapons +4/+8 (assuming all four tiers are taken).{Edited incorrect math - originally had totals for all FIVE tiers, not just the first four.}

2b) Sharpshooter - Teir 5: Same argument - if you're going to include bows and thrown, increase their damage to be +6.
{Edit} With all five tiers, repeaters would be +7/+7 (hit/damage) and all other thrown weapons +7/+14.

3) Mechanical Reloader: Yeah, kind of hard to attach a mechanical reloader to a bow. It's OK as is.

4) Sniper: Again, why are bows and thrown only given 1 extra SA die and non-repeating x-bows 2? And why are only non-repeating x-bows given +1[w]? Are you saying you can snipe better with a non-repeating x-bow than you can a bow? Want to leave thrown out? Fine (I don't really see 'thrown' weapons as sniper weapons anyway). But bows should also be given the +2 SA dice and the +1[w]. If you want to give non-repeating x-bows that "something extra", then give them +1.5[w]. I would actually be OK with leaving out bows and thrown altogether.

5) In the original beta for the new EN mechanic "tree", there was a "fast disable" EN. What happened to that? I really liked that idea.
;)

[Silverleafeon]

-- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

Hmm....what about:

Rapid Reload Passive Allows Crossbows to be reloaded about 20% faster. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to ranged Power.


Rapid Shot Passive You can make ranged attacks about 20% faster and reload faster when using a ranged weapon. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to Ranged Power.


Precise Shot Passive with Offensive Ranged Stance Your targeted ranged attacks will now pass through friends and foes alike, to strike your target. (No damage will be done other than to your target.) This feat also grants you the Offensive Ranged Stance 'Archer's Focus', which lets you deal progressively more damage while standing still. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to Ranged Power.


Quick Draw Passive Allows the character to switch weapons and armor faster than they would normally be able to. It also increases the rate of fire of thrown weapons, but not of other ranged weapons. and a +3 Combat Style bonus to Ranged Power.

[Ayseifn]

Does the returning from Mechanic stack with returning from ammo or is it just the higher of the two?

[Slasheboy]

Some thoughts:

1) Fletching v. Conjure Bolts: I have always been an advocate for mechanics to have an EN "similar to conjure bolts". I also agree that "conjuring" isn't really in the rogue baileywick, per se, so the "fletching" proposal is good. However, seeing as how arcane archers get a tier one EN for 100% returning arrows, and with some house D favor, you can buy 75% returning ammo, I think it should be 75%/85%/100% - it is, after all, a tier 4 EN. But if you really think 100% is just too much, then OK, make it 95%. If you're going to insist on keeping the first level at 50%, then make it 50%/75%/100%.

2a) Sharpshooter - Tiers 1 thru 4: I understand why repeating x-bows are only given +1 damage (even though I disagree with it). However, I see no reason why bows and thrown weapons are not grouped with non-repeating x-bows. If you're going to include bows and thrown, then group them with non-repeaters and give them +2 damage, as well. i.e. let all of the (1) shot per round ranged weapons have +2 damage. Doing the math, repeaters would be +7/+7 (hit/damage) and all other thrown weapons +7/+14 (assuming all four tiers are taken).

2b) Sharpshooter - Teir 5: Same argument - if you're going to include bows and thrown, increase their damage to be +6.

3) Mechanical Reloader: Yeah, kind of hard to attach a mechanical reloader to a bow. It's OK as is.

4) Sniper: Again, why are bows and thrown only given 1 extra SA die and non-repeating x-bows 2? And why are only non-repeating x-bows given +1[w]? Are you saying you can snipe better with a non-repeating x-bow than you can a bow? Want to leave thrown out? Fine (I don't really see 'thrown' weapons as sniper weapons anyway). But bows should also be given the +2 SA dice and the +1[w]. If you want to give non-repeating x-bows that "something extra", then give them +1.5[w]. I would actually be OK with leaving out bows and thrown altogether.

5) In the original beta for the new EN mechanic "tree", there was a "fast disable" EN. What happened to that? I really liked that idea.
;)

Its very simple: Bows and throwers all have a multishot ability via manyshot and/or Thousand Stars. In fact, bows are even more powerful than repeaters because at Bab 16, manyshot spits out 4 arrows at an attack speed significantly faster than repeaters. Non-repeating crossbows have never and will prolly never have this capability. Unless they follow one of my past suggestions and let rapid reload give an additional bolt per shot to non-repeaters.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Having my doubts that the big crit range/multiplier, extra attack speed, and expanded knockdown are going to be enough to make up for the lost sneak attack and weapon effect damage on Great Xbows as compared to repeaters, but will need to test.

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much doubleshot reduction repeaters get?

[G_Lich]

Fusillade should be a feat with a 30 sec CD (math it up vs. a manyshot and it will still come out lower because manyshot dumps 4 arrows at a time, all adrenaline-ready) that should be an option for rogues to take along with arti's and I'm an 8 past life arti player who put the builds down because everything else was getting buffed. Artificer should get this free and fusillade enh could be replaced by something else temporarily if you don't want to give a paid premium class the attention it needs before a freebie class. Rogues still don't get runearms and 2 arti for a runearm is silly when it won't be fired, 4 arti for an extra equip slot while ranging and a no-save mezz is doable though, and right under that multiplier, 16rog/4art might be OK.

At any rate...

Time bomb looks great honestly, love to see those working DC's, interesting effects are actually usable (however you may now notice that people will be blowing boxes in Inferno of the Damned if they get their disable above 115... those have a hardcap and anything above is a critical fail, might want to fix that if it hasn't already been fixed).

Would it be possible to make the +1 attack/+1 damage into plain enhancement bonuses for the sake of spellpower or is that too much? Yeah, probably best left in the magic trees.

[Grugmak]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

[LIST]
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.



With it already being so easy to cap ranged attack speed (Shiradi whirling blades + full BAB + just 10% ranged haste is the animation cap), is there any chance we could get a change to throw 2 weapons based on your int/dex similar to shuriken mastery/ninja spy core 2. Throwing 3 weapons per throw is kind of ridiculous but 2 shouldn't be out of the realm of believability, and this IS a tier 5 talent, locking you out of tier 5 for any other tree.

Then again other throwers need love period since 90% of the throwing bonuses in game right now affect shurikens only (10k stars, shuriken mastery, ninja spy core 2) and those only just bring them up to par with other melee weapons/bows. Any thrower besides shuriken is still absolute ****, and some of us would really like to see throwers become viable.

[Dreppo]

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how much doubleshot reduction repeaters get?

From the wiki page on doubleshot:


Doubleshot converts rate of 1/3 for repeating crossbows. (Crossbow users can theoretically benefit from having 300% Doubleshot.)

[FlaviusMaximus]

Thanks, Dreppo. I hadn't checked the wiki for that information in quite some time. Looks like they have some stuff up there now.

There is a link to a thread on the page in which they state that repeaters get full doubleshot, no penalty as of testing sometime last year. Unable to tell from the wiki page whether this has changed or not.

[IronClan]

Its very simple: Bows and throwers all have a multishot ability via manyshot and/or Thousand Stars. In fact, bows are even more powerful than repeaters because at Bab 16, manyshot spits out 4 arrows at an attack speed significantly faster than repeaters. Non-repeating crossbows have never and will prolly never have this capability. Unless they follow one of my past suggestions and let rapid reload give an additional bolt per shot to non-repeaters.

IMO The game really doesn't need more builds that emphasize maximum procs/affixes per second, machine gun damage is getting old, it already feels like almost every build must aim for max attacks per second instead of max damage per hit, with all the OP weapon speed dependent Thunderforged Procs. All top builds right now are about alacrity, double strike and piling up affixes and proc chances to take advantage of the buzzsaw like attack rate. Of course a lot of this is the desire to maximize mortal fear procs as much as possible, an OP affix as there ever was, andf the Dev's play right into this overpoweredness by putting a bunch new emphasis on attacks per second.

In this regard I like what they're doing with Great crossbow, and would like to see some more trees do this, Perhaps instead of making the throwers in mechanic just like Shurikens they could instead lean towards less attacks but harder hitting attacks (averaging out to similar DPS numbers)?

I've also never understood why a game with historical peak attacks/calculation lag issues (Shroud Lag) and present lag issues would go out of it's way to add more calculations/physics checks, when they could have just as easily gone for bigger damage at a slower attack rate and got the same average DPS.

SWF for example could have been all about the big "decisive blow" like swashblucklers fencing around until one of them gets the opening and kills the other with a single hit... And I can't for the life of me figure out why wearing a shield would speed up your attacks by 20% as opposed to giving you the ability to patently wait for an opening. Both Fighting styles strike me as contrary to verisimilitude but those ships have sailed, at least lets not keep creating new ways to make a Wolf, Monkcher or a Shuricannon please.

[JohnWarlock]

How come Wand and Scroll Mastery is tier 2, when other characters get it at tier 1?
Also if we have Amethyst Arrows out of Threnal that are 50% returning,
what's the change of getting 100% returning ammo? I mean, I'm just most characters
would appreciate carrying a stack of 100% returning plain old ammo just for when they run
out. It wouldn't be anything fancy, and it would be a nice backup, also, can crafting ammo be done
in quantities of 1,000 instead?

Thank you

[Failedlegend]

Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.


Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.


~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur

In that case can we work in some PRR/Fort bypass in for Great X-bows...they knock people down already with that kinda punch and bolts rep for piercing armor in IRL it would make sense



and sniper.


Sooooo....would be nice if Assassin got a ranged assassinate before you move on to the next class to allow for some in class synergy.(currently the only way to get close is 6 Ranger Sniper Shot)

Actually relating to the fact that Ranger 6 will still be a popular rogue "splash" is there plans to make AA work with ALL ranged weapons (including thrown)

[Slasheboy]

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.

Or, can we simply make it a toggle to allow sneak attack on constructs?

[Failedlegend]

Or, can we simply make it a toggle to allow sneak attack on constructs?

Why a toggle, when would you ever NOT want sneak attack?

[Saekee]

The faster cooldown and setting etc is nice for zerging, team play etc but creates issues for other playstyles. Noisemakers should not go off too quickly. Also, it may be advantagous to have a trap endure for a long time. I am not sure how coding affects all of this.

I would like to see traps endure the more time you spend setting them. If that is not possible, then have traps craftable that take longer to set but last much longer. That way there are options, e.g set a quick trap or slow set a long enduring one.

Also the DC on improved traps needs clarification. If it is the DD skill, then is that with gear? If so, when?

I do not care for mechanics using bows--it doesn't feel right, even if it helps my build in my sig. I would shift throwing daggers to the assassin tree, dump bows and stay with repeaters and great xbows. Also, I would add an exploding shot for great xbows, like a grenade launcher.

[kmoustakas]

I just hope similar changes will be made to the artificers too. Especially that +1 competence to threat and multiplier, will make artificers do some damage.

[Failedlegend]

Here are the proposed changes for Constructed Traps

I've never been good at DC requirements so I'll skip that but any chance we can add two things

1. Required Ingredients for Trapsmithing have been reduced (mainly the trap parts) and things rogues don't have access to (like trap the soul) are no longer required

2. Traps parts drop rate has been increased and is granted to everyone in the quest/group (solving the battles over who gets to trap disable)



Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.


I'm sorry I LOVE the flavour of this capstone so I hope we can somehow keep the "Hip Flask" idea but frankly...a capstone ability should NEVER be an action boost, action boosts SUCK!! can we please remove the action boost portion to boost the passive portion a bit (ie. see below for fast disabling idea) Also max 60hp heal as a level 20 ability...ok



Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.


I like the custom mod feel off this



Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.


This is one of my fav abilities in the tree loving the shorter cooldown/set time

One more thing can we add something like the following to the Core 1 ability: For every Core ability reduce Open Lock/Trap Disarm/Search time by 15%

This would grant a Total of 90% reduction in times if you take up to the capstone alowwing rogues to have a one up over splash trappers like Wiz18/Rog2s.

[geoffhanna]

Someone probably mentioned this already, but I note that there are no changes to trap skills of any sort, or trap saves, even though Mechanic is the trappist tree.

One assumes then that Turbine is already pleased with trap-removing abilities as they are?

[legendkilleroll]

I'm not really a ranged player, only tried xbow arty 1life so not sure how good these will, hope it can be a viable tree for ee content

When swashbuckler was added, only named buckler was the cove one, since then has been two from 3BC, two from EOrchard, maybe they can start adding some named great and non repeating xbows in future

[Myrddinman]

I do not care for mechanics using bows--it doesn't feel right, even if it helps my build in my sig. I would shift throwing daggers to the assassin tree, dump bows and stay with repeaters and great xbows. Also, I would add an exploding shot for great xbows, like a grenade launcher.

^ Exactly this. Let Bows be the province of Rangers, thrown weapons: Assassin, and Repeaters/Crossbows: Mechanic.

Even with the nice Great Crossbow changes, I still think they need more oomph. They have to be devastating.

[Myrddinman]

Someone probably mentioned this already, but I note that there are no changes to trap skills of any sort, or trap saves, even though Mechanic is the trappist tree.

One assumes then that Turbine is already pleased with trap-removing abilities as they are?

Since Sev did not provide a complete write-up of the tree, but only the changes, I would assume that both Mechanics and Awareness are both still available in the tree.

[nibel]

5) In the original beta for the new EN mechanic "tree", there was a "fast disable" EN. What happened to that? I really liked that idea.
;)

It was incorporated as a global reduction in search and disable device time. Before SC, it took roughly double the current time to search or disable stuff. IIRC, it had some bug that if you took the enhancement, then reset your enhancements, the fast search/DD would still function.

[Saekee]

^ Exactly this. Let Bows be the province of Rangers, thrown weapons: Assassin, and Repeaters/Crossbows: Mechanic.

Even with the nice Great Crossbow changes, I still think they need more oomph. They have to be devastating.

Hi Myrddijiman, I am glad you agree with me. Let deepwood snipers stay as the snipers. Mechanics should be tactical tinkerers and demolitionists. The snipe-like effect of the great xbow is fine but the bow ability makes no sense. Bows are just different animals than xbows. The former I imagine as being about zen and grace; the latter about knowledge and technology. Bows--10K (wisdom) and DEX; xbows--fusilade and INT.

[Cleanincubus]

Didn't read the first post in this thread, did you? There's 10 ranged power in the tree. To go with the ranged attack speed increase, the ranged crit range increase, and ranged crit multiplier increase, I'd say the tree provides quite a lot of ranged DPS.

And when they do the ranged pass, while most of the ranged power will come in epics -- just like most melee power does -- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

Gotcha, I missed the 10 Ranged Power, and just saw the returning part of Fletching. It just annoys me when the Devs make design choices on theoretical things. It might in fact work great in Epic levels, but until those theoretical changes are made, it'll be pretty weak. And to me, I just don't see a balance here with other classes, which should be the intent of changing an Enhancement Tree. I guess we'll see.

[Artagon]

1) Fletching v. Conjure Bolts: I have always been an advocate for mechanics to have an EN "similar to conjure bolts". I also agree that "conjuring" isn't really in the rogue baileywick, per se, so the "fletching" proposal is good. However, seeing as how arcane archers get a tier one EN for 100% returning arrows, and with some house D favor, you can buy 75% returning ammo, I think it should be 75%/85%/100% - it is, after all, a tier 4 EN. But if you really think 100% is just too much, then OK, make it 95%. If you're going to insist on keeping the first level at 50%, then make it 50%/75%/100%.
;)

Though we haven't seen the specifics yet, Sev mentioned here that there will be better craftable bolts/arrows coming down the line, which the returning will be a huge benefit for. As the class that makes things to boost DPS and be tricky, Fletching as-is makes a lot of sense to me.

Until that change happens, may I suggest making holy bolts in cannith or just UMD some flame arrow scrolls?

[Tesrali]

We need "meter improvement" bonuses to point blank shot and ranged sneak attack in the mechanic tree or elf will be the required race imo.

[Delacroix21]

First off, I LOVE the changes!


But I have a few points=

1. Traps still dont scale, you will be stuck with whatever the base damage of the level 27 trap is (unless its 1000+ damage i dont see a use for them in EE when my S&B toon has a 50% crit chance and crits for 500 damage every other swing+ 300 damage from crippling flames/dragons edge). Adding melee/ranged power to traps would be nice.
2. Trap DCs still to low to the point of unusable for non-mechanics
3. I read that epic levels will add ranged power, but will items? I recommend making the rogue abilities scale with 250% ranged power instead of 200%, as there is very little ranged power in ddo.

[Delacroix21]

Oh! and no removal of ranged sneak attack penalty like deepwood stalker? That stinks.


Ok so Sev, we both know a huge portion of rogue damage comes from sneak attack right? Well there are lots of times when you wont be able to be in ranged sneak range in ddo (FoT crystal, etc.) so rogue damage will really drop off there.


Also it just fits the whole sniper sort of thing by removing the ranged penalty. A close range sniper doesnt make sense! lol

[Silverleafeon]

Does the returning from Mechanic stack with returning from ammo or is it just the higher of the two?

I wondered this as well.


How come Wand and Scroll Mastery is tier 2, when other characters get it at tier 1?

I guess cause rogues are not magic users per say.


Also if we have Amethyst Arrows out of Threnal that are 50% returning,
what's the change of getting 100% returning ammo? I mean, I'm just most characters
would appreciate carrying a stack of 100% returning plain old ammo just for when they run
out. It wouldn't be anything fancy, and it would be a nice backup,


Hmm...magical masterwork 100% returning ammo...interesting idea. Maybe Epic Vale / Shav vendor with appropriate favor?



also, can crafting ammo be done
in quantities of 1,000 instead?

Thank you

Nods in agreement, can 1,000 or 500 become the new standard of ammo quantities for crafting/loot drops.

Also that Quiver http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Quivering_Quiver.jpg/420px-Quivering_Quiver.jpg is very interesting, could we have more like it. How about a bolt producing version and an epic version with better ammo? Could these produce larger quantities as well such as 200 units.



I just hope similar changes will be made to the artificers too. Especially that +1 competence to threat and multiplier, will make artificers do some damage.

Hopefully Steelstar is perusing this thread as well for future reference.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Hi Myrddijiman, I am glad you agree with me. Let deepwood snipers stay as the snipers. Mechanics should be tactical tinkerers and demolitionists. The snipe-like effect of the great xbow is fine but the bow ability makes no sense. Bows are just different animals than xbows. The former I imagine as being about zen and grace; the latter about knowledge and technology. Bows--10K (wisdom) and DEX; xbows--fusilade and INT.

For the sake of discussion, as someone recently brought to my attention, that the Deepwood hasn't produced SNIPERS for some time. They are now STALKERS.

[Oxarhamar]

Didn't read the first post in this thread, did you? There's 10 ranged power in the tree. To go with the ranged attack speed increase, the ranged crit range increase, and ranged crit multiplier increase, I'd say the tree provides quite a lot of ranged DPS.

And when they do the ranged pass, while most of the ranged power will come in epics -- just like most melee power does -- perhaps they'll put some ranged power into the ranged feats.

You are aware the topic was the abilities that scale with 200% ranged power.

And where is that Ranged power coming from?

Not DPS

[Rautis]

The returning bonus applied on bolts/arrows is neat. What I was thinking is that maybe it could be moved to cores so level 1 core gives 50% returning and each core after that increases that by 10% so at capstone it becomes 100%. Would this be too powerful? It would mean that pure level 20 rogue could try to find different ammo types that would help the most in different situations and equip them without fear of running out.

I was thinking about this because of someone suggesting runearm proficiency for capstone. In general I think that most ammo are weaker than equal level runearms. It is just adding 1 DR piercing property and/or 3d6 for greater bane ammo, 2d6 for holy/anarchic/axiomatic, or 1d6 for some other ammo. And for example finding and carrying bane arrows for each mob type is not easy.

Only problematic type I can think of are creature type x slaying ammo which would offer a chance to kill epic monsters when they roll a 1 if the mechanic has type of arrows equipped that works on monster type he is attacking. I haven't ever killed anything with this ammo type so I'm not sure about actual mechanics and if for example death ward or other things block it. You could just nerf/change slaying ammo to acceptable level. Afterall they're so rare as loot type that the most I've collected of one type is 100 arrows of giant/elemental slaying. That's less than 1 manyshot requires and I've collected them for about 4 years as they're required for cannith crafting recipes.

I liked hunting for different runearms when arti was new. Hunting for different ammo types as Mechanic could be rather interesting too and add extra depth to Mechanic play.

I am really not sure about changing the tree to benefit bows in particular too. Elf AA combo might be just too must have for ranged rogues.

Other thing I have to agree about is increasing sneak attack range a bit for mechanics. Maybe 5/10 meters from Fletcher and 5/10 meters from Sniper? Or 5 meters per sharpshooter tier?

Leg Shot is a nice attack but it suffers from repeater reload cycle mechanic. If you press it while repeater is not loaded it triggers reload animation, goes on cooldown and you don't get the effect. Maybe it could be changed to give an adrenaline like buff that goes away when the repeater actually fired or weapon is changed? Same thing should be done to Otto's Whistler and Pin from Shiradi. Or just trigger a buff that is short enough to include just 1 repeater attack cycle? Currently special attacks with crossbows can be rather annoying to make work.

[Saekee]

For the sake of discussion, as someone recently brought to my attention, that the Deepwood hasn't produced SNIPERS for some time. They are now STALKERS.

Ok but:
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)
+10 Positive Spell Power

[Drus-the-Axe]

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size

How about increased AND RANDOM size?

Instead of always 20 how about e.g. 1-100? Or since throwing weapons have smaller max stacks how about 1 - min(100, maxstacksize)

[General_Gronker]

I would assume that both Mechanics and Awareness are both still available in the tree.
Which is still a very poor showing for something called Mechanic. As I said, this should be renamed Arbalist. Because this tree isn't about being a mechanic or a saboteur (that would actually be cross between a couple of trees), but is about shooting things with crossbows while occasionally tossing stuff (that you should be able to buy from a vendor) at enemies to no real good effect.

Someone probably mentioned this already,I did.

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.
You are correct. Not worth it as is, change to construct bane damage is a much better idea.

Could anyone else confirm this problem/ if they have seen this before? I might just be me. :D
It's not just you. It's been a problem with great x-bows for a long time now. I actually had a great crossbow kensai a couple years back, who was great fun WHEN the great x-bows worked. But this that you're talking about got so bad I ended up LRing him as a falchion Kensai. Was kinda hoping they had fixed that issue by now so I could go back to great x-bow kensai on one of his lives.

[IronClan]

Can we please just change this to Bane damage vs. Constructs it's not worth a bar slot for an active ability that works on ONE enemy type.

In that case can we work in some PRR/Fort bypass in for Great X-bows...they knock people down already with that kinda punch and bolts rep for piercing armor in IRL it would make sense


Agreed, and yeah some stacking ranged fort bypass would fit in.


BTW Sev love the Saboteur flavor, can we turn (turnt?) it up a bit? Right now without you saying it I wouldn't have gotten that feel from the tree.

How about: when sneaking your ranged attacks have X chance to assassinate (smallish chance like 20%) this is in addition to (and stacks additively) with the % chance from the Shadowdancer attack.


Or, can we simply make it a toggle to allow sneak attack on constructs?


Why a toggle, when would you ever NOT want sneak attack?

Indeed, if it's a toggle it needs a reason why you would turn it off, change it to:

"Sabotage armor" (moar flavor!) a +5[W] attack that Effects all mobs with a 30% fort reduction that stacks with improved sunder, and eliminates a Contruct and Undeads immunity to sneak attack for 6 seconds.

[IronClan]

Oh yeah and I know absolutely no ones said it yet <wink wink nudge nudge> but we need a few Named great crossbows...

Perferably ones that emphasize first number damage over affixes and 2% and 5% proc chances... The attack speed is abysmal, so it's going against the grain to make a bunch of great Xbows with lots of secondary elemental damage affixes like Shocking Burst and Cloud Burst and Lightning Strike. On crit effects on the other hand are fair game. On vorpal effects to take advantage of 19-20. Base damage and crit profile to make for heavy hitter first numbers.

Some ideas:

CarniFlex (drops in Deleras this is both a play on the much loved greataxe AND a play on how some people mispronounce the greataxe's name)
ML4
Keen
17-20 expanded base range X3 multiplier (end range with keen is 14-20)
Red slot

Yulthoon's Amorphous Scorpion
ML14
Normal stats
On all hits your Base damage is randomly considered to be 1d4 elemental, light, force, rust or negative, if purple damage is done that element/force/light/etc. is chosen for all subsequent attacks until normal, yellow or Green damage is done where it goes back to random.
On all critical hits the following effects are possible (percentage chosen based on whats best for balance):
Soundburst
Otto Dance Ball
Icestorm
Chain Lightning
Meteor strike
Phantasmal Killer
Earthquake
Summon fashionable Taken
Grease
Ham

Spinesplitter (bone look) Available via Tome of Ledend Turn ins.
ML16
X4
Seeker 10
Heartseeker
Red slot

Unwavering Ballista (Mark of Death raid) looks a little like an Unwavering ardency turned sideways
ML28
3[W]2d12
17-20 X3
Blinding embers, all crits proc an 8 second no save blind
Smoke screen

[IronClan]

Working on a Mechanic build inspired by these changes, I wonder if Core 18 Great Xbow Multiplier couldn't be moved to core 12? The reason I bring this up is the 18/2 multiclassing options on a rogue are decidedly boring and typical (uninspiring) old school 2 splashes are the only option besides capstone with such a strong core 18. In fact I would say that core 18 makes it compulsory to have at least 18 Rogue levels.

I see a trend with Pure paladins Pure Barbs and Pure Rogues becoming almost defacto I am okay with swinging the pendulum back from where it got to with the enhancement pass, I'm even more okay with it if it's only a few classes that get this super strong incentive to be pure (Paladins and Barbs are fine as such IMO) but Rogue has always been a much more flexible class like Fighter, often gaining your "flavor" from the other classes you choose. You guys IMO are swinging it back too hard... Right back to pre-Enhancement pass DDO which was a splash 2, go pure or you're gimp and declined from raids (except a few notable power builds). While I can agree the E-pass probably made multiclassing too de-rigueur, you guys are swinging it soo hard back in the opposite direction that Pure and 2 splash is going to be de-rigueur.

[jaggyjag]

Working on a Mechanic build inspired by these changes, I wonder if Core 18 Great Xbow Multiplier couldn't be moved to core 12? The reason I bring this up is the 18/2 multiclassing options on a rogue are decidedly boring and typical (uninspiring) old school 2 splashes are the only option besides capstone with such a strong core 18. In fact I would say that core 18 makes it compulsory to have at least 18 Rogue levels.

I see a trend with Pure paladins Pure Barbs and Pure Rogues becoming almost defacto I am okay with swinging the pendulum back from where it got to with the enhancement pass, I'm even more okay with it if it's only a few classes that get this super strong incentive to be pure (Paladins and Barbs are fine as such IMO) but Rogue has always been a much more flexible class like Fighter, often gaining your "flavor" from the other classes you choose. You guys IMO are swinging it back too hard... Right back to pre-Enhancement pass DDO which was a splash 2, go pure or you're gimp and declined from raids (except a few notable power builds). While I can agree the E-pass probably made multiclassing too de-rigueur, you guys are swinging it soo hard back in the opposite direction that Pure and 2 splash is going to be de-rigueur.

Nope. moving it from 18 to 12 would be a mistake and way to powerful for 12 ability.

Also Let me point out that enhancement tree passes are targeted at making class viable not making it a good splash class. The benefits of a splash here and there are all fine and well, but asking for things like the proposed Core 18 to be bumped down, are just the first step for meta-gaining the class right back into irrelevance.

[SealedInSong]

Theres no fixing this one.I still say, complete removal of concentration checks on DDO is the only way.The system isnt meant for the reality we have.

Instead, I just think that every 5 levels, you should get some modest multiplier to your concentration skill in defense of interruption. I.e.

lvl5 = *0.25 conc total
10 = *0.5

and linear progression. Testing to refine the formula would be good.

[SealedInSong]

Wow ,big changes.Im not comenting on traps since i have no experience on them.

Thunderstone and tanglefoot - Those are interesting, damage would sill be pretty poor on epics, usualy shooting an assorted ranged weapon would do more, i get that they can be used for CC thought.But i have a suggestion : Make them have no animation, but block them from beign used if charging a rune arm.The idea is if youre using a crossbow/great crossbow, people never get to experience the capstone of mechanic really, 2 arti is needed for rune arm use, not having a rune arm is too huge a loss.Allowing these to be used as a sort of replacement for rune arm shots would be great!

I love the versatility in the tree.The bonuses in great crossbow might make it viable, i have to say im eager to actualy try that on lamania.In fact a lot of this requires lamania testing for proper feedback.Its interesting to think that we might finaly have a viable ranged character that isnt tied to shooting multiple projectiles at once and can make full use of doubleshot.But at the same time the tree also mantains bonuses to other weapons making it still be good for splashing as it is now.

DCs of 10+rogue level+int are still low i'd say thought, consider adding some form of epic lvls in the process.Youre mostly sitting at at least -2 DC from splashing 2 arti with this alredy.

Sev, you mentioned 3rd arti tree and arti EDs and ranged pass, this tree mentions ranged power.Can we have an input on what else will come on this update? arti trees revamp? just the 3rd tree? ED? No trees at all for arti?

Hip flask is a cute capstone, but I also see very little reason to not splash for 2 arti. This might serve the devs insofar as rogue is f2p and arti is p2p. In any case, I'd still like to see a nice incentive or workaround.

I.e. let's say add Runearm Use feat as selectable by any class that has 8 natural ranks in UMD.

[IronClan]

Nope. moving it from 18 to 12 would be a mistake and way to powerful for 12 ability.

Also Let me point out that enhancement tree passes are targeted at making class viable not making it a good splash class. The benefits of a splash here and there are all fine and well, but asking for things like the proposed Core 18 to be bumped down, are just the first step for meta-gaining the class right back into irrelevance.

12 is not a splash class LOL it's almost the same requirement as Holy Sword, except that Holy Sword applies to lots of highly Optimal weapon choices while this applies to mostly highly non optimal weapons. If we wanted we could have Bow's only get it at 18...

What is rapidly happening is that we're returning to the bad old days when Pure was almost always clearly optimal a 2 splash was mistrusted but grudingly accepted in the few circumstances that it wasn't obvious why you'd do it, and anything more was grounds to be declined from groups by a considerable segment of the playerbase.

BTW I don't have a problem making the capstone more interesting because a 2 Arti splash is almost mandatory the way the cores work now.

IMO this tree is far too backloaded with almost nothing in the middle that offers interesting multlcassing... basically it's 18 Rogue 2 Arti or go home. MAYBE if you want to sacrifice significant DPS via Rune Arm imbues on your Great Xbow you take 1 or 2 Barb for run speed and some dodge (and sprint boost if you want to throw away AP's getting to it). There's also a Minor 2 Bard splash synergy for dodge, PRR from WC and sprint boost. But mostly the options are highly uninspiring, and the clear cut winner is probably 2 Artificer, especially if they get something nice in a third tree soon.

I don't see a compelling argument for why a sub optimal weapon improver shouldn't be 2 levels lower than a eSoS/TF falchion/Staff crit profile improvement. It's not lvl 3 like Bard so I just don't think someone objecting to it has a leg to stand on.

The DPS added from a Glass Cannon or Knives Eternal Rune Arm alone makes 2 Arti mandatory.

[SealedInSong]

Makes me think I make change the level splits on my Rogue/arti/ranger. Maybe even go 18 rogue/2 arti (Gotta have rune arm use)

Giving up runearm use when using crossbows will force most people wanting to contribute meaningful DPS to splash arti.

I also think that allowing http://ddowiki.com/page/Rune_Arm_Use to be selectable with X natural ranks in UMD would be good for more Cannoneer pure bard swashes, and other fun flavorful melee builds that don't splash arti.

If anyone argues that rune arms should stay exclusively arti, I'd rebut that it'd be like saying abundant step should be a Monk only ability. We have plenty of cross-pollinated abilities, and adding rune arm use for non-artificers that invest for it is good for game diversity

[SealedInSong]

Agreed, it's ok, but I can have like a constant +20 damage with a Glass Cannon on. You better come big if you want people to put that down.

Plot Twist (by M. Night Shyamalan): Level 20 Mechanic capstone allows Rune Arm use. That's right, I said it. It honestly doesn't seem all that different from the way Evasion was given to Swashbuckler's at 20. To mollify that obvious and practically required 2 Rogue splash.

In fact I might like this solution a bit better as it makes mechanics a little more shiny

[SealedInSong]

~ The flavor we wanted for Mechanic is to be a saboteur and sniper.
~ We don't want them to be an Artificer light, so we don't want to just import Artificer stuff into the tree.
~ Runearms will stay exclusive to Artificers.

We had a long discussion of conjured bolts versus Fletching on the player council forums. Some points:

~ If you really want to conjure bolts you have UMD and scrolls.
~ Conjuration spells really isn't in flavor for rogues.
~ Fletching will really shine when we have more powerful crafted ammunition with updated crafting systems, and will be also be really good if we put more powerful ammunition on special vendors.

As an aside I like the idea of making ammunition found in treasure to drop with an increased stack size. I can't promise that for Update 25 however.

Sev~

Disregard my above comments about Rune Arm Use then, if the devs definitely don't want that direction.

I like everything said above, Sev; and I particularly think that crafted (and even more named) ammunition would be aaaaawesome.

[SealedInSong]

I think if limiting the discussion to pure Rogue, I'd still prefer Assassin capstone, but take Tier 5 Mechanic.

I have better things to use my Action Boosts on, so I'm really only seriously considering the Passive benefits.

They should consider just putting it on a cooldown and not making it an Action Boost, like Uncanny Dodge et al.

Yes please. Also lower the cooldown. Anything that has over 120 s of cooldown I just forget about. I'd be fine with slightly decreased benefit too, so long as I can use it more and infinitely in a quest. I hate finite/per day charges.

[Unsmitten]

12 is not a splash class LOL it's almost the same requirement as Holy Sword, except that Holy Sword applies to lots of highly Optimal weapon choices while this applies to mostly highly non optimal weapons. If we wanted we could have Bow's only get it at 18...

What is rapidly happening is that we're returning to the bad old days when Pure was almost always clearly optimal a 2 splash was mistrusted but grudingly accepted in the few circumstances that it wasn't obvious why you'd do it, and anything more was grounds to be declined from groups by a considerable segment of the playerbase.

BTW I don't have a problem making the capstone more interesting because a 2 Arti splash is almost mandatory the way the cores work now.

IMO this tree is far too backloaded with almost nothing in the middle that offers interesting multlcassing... basically it's 18 Rogue 2 Arti or go home. MAYBE if you want to sacrifice significant DPS via Rune Arm imbues on your Great Xbow you take 1 or 2 Barb for run speed and some dodge (and sprint boost if you want to throw away AP's getting to it). There's also a Minor 2 Bard splash synergy for dodge, PRR from WC and sprint boost. But mostly the options are highly uninspiring, and the clear cut winner is probably 2 Artificer, especially if they get something nice in a third tree soon.

I don't see a compelling argument for why a sub optimal weapon improver shouldn't be 2 levels lower than a eSoS/TF falchion/Staff crit profile improvement. It's not lvl 3 like Bard so I just don't think someone objecting to it has a leg to stand on.

This is exactly how I see it, and is why I suggested moving the 18 to 12 and buffing great crossbows more with the 18. You forgot to mention that bards get massive crit profile boosts at LEVEL 3 on a wide array of weapons. The way the cores for Mechanic are now, they are terrible until 18.

Wow 5 extra SA/PBS range.

Sweet, a slightly better DC for what was a completely useless flask.

Oh hey, int to damage for 1 less enhancement point then I can get from Harper.

Woah, 50% more search range, as if we didn't already memorize where every trap in the game is.

Here we go, finally I've gone pure rogue and now I get some better crits, who needs to make heavy splashes anyways. I'll just make a Sunelf 18 Rogue 2 Monk, the best AA ever man. Turbines gonna make some serious dough from all the +5 Lesser Hearts. Hm, what ever happened to (great) crossbows being the focus?

[IronClan]

This is exactly how I see it, and is why I suggested moving the 18 to 12 and buffing great crossbows more with the 18. You forgot to mention that bards get massive crit profile boosts at LEVEL 3 on a wide array of weapons. The way the cores for Mechanic are now, they are terrible until 18.

Well actuallyI mentioned 3 Bard but I get that your "you forget" really is directed at the guy I quoted and not me.

Yeah right now I think the main reason to lower Expert builder to core 12 is so you can improve the Capstone to be something compelling enough to be a real choice over 2 Arti without it being even more backloaded with 18 and 20 cores.

In fact I'd like to see the Crit range split into core 6, move targeting sights to core three with tanglefoot, and put the multiplier improvements in at core 12. This would open multclassing potential, and a strong capstone would give a real reason to choose pure instead of Arti slam dunk.

If great xbows were better weapons I could see valuing expert builder 4 levels higher than Holy sword, but that is not remotely the case. In fact I think you could make the case for it being a T5

[Bobby88888]

^ Exactly this. Let Bows be the province of Rangers, thrown weapons: Assassin, and Repeaters/Crossbows: Mechanic.

Even with the nice Great Crossbow changes, I still think they need more oomph. They have to be devastating.

I agree with this too but I also think opening up the tree to bows allows for more diversity and flavour builds. In that line of thinking bows should be made to function with the various abilities but gain reduced or no benefit from some/all of the things that boost. Throwing weapons is a similar deal.
To me a mechanic would be making gadgets and tinkering with his gear to make it work better and xbows fit this perfectly, not so much throwers or bows.


Mechanic should get SA range increases not SA die, that starts to encroach on assassin territory and the Sniper theme kinda fails if you have to stand next to them to get your SA damage. The capstone SA damage is fine though ofc. all rogues do 'sneaky attacks' SA but Assassin is best at it which should be reflected in many more SA die than the others, sure 6 can count as many :)


Traps. Well firstly great to hear you are looking into them but it would be best imho if rather than creating hundreds of different traps make them scale off your level and int mod and or disable skill in terms of DC, duration, damage and possibly bonus effects. New trap types sounds really fun. Traps is a great system that feels like its being missed out on a bit.
Traps might trigger a little too fast now? maybe 1 sec set time, 1.5 or 2 sec arm time. CD reduction is great but letting you keep up more than 1 trap type.

Something more along the construct/trap lines might be cool in the tree but otherwise it looks like a great and interesting tree to play around in. Kinda want to go roll up a mech now:D

[HatsuharuZ]

I'm not impressed with the "Disable Construct" enhancement. Being able to daze constructs is something that most classes can't do, but... How about the ability to reduce their fortification on a failed fort save as well, or something like that? Dazing is the least valuable CC effect, while fortification reduction is very useful for a rogue.

[vengfarga]

After a Brazzilion years of mech'ing - it was my very 1st toon back when we only had MechI - I'm gonna keep playing one whatever the changes. However, I have more than a few concerns with this direction, albeit the right direction overall.

* Great Xbows could be buffed to be 11-20 x5 4D12 weapons and STILL no one would use them 90% of the time; their attack speed is so slow that you'd still be better off throwing lumps of coal. => Any buffs to Great Xbows are flavour rather than a buff to the tree. (Non-repeating xbows are in pretty much the same boat.)

* Even with 1 sec set times and 8 sec cool downs, elemental traps/grenades (and similar enhs) are underwhelming unless they do a LOT more damage; an average pure mech with 46-50 Int at cap, PBS, combat archery, 17+D6 of sneak attack, a good destiny, a Tier2 TF Xbow or Needle, Know the angles, etc. AND using IPS intelligently, would be better off just keeping that attack button pushed down rather than breaking off to lay a trap. As long as they are ineffectual in terms of DPS, they remain flavour for (again) 90% of the time.

* I have always rated Hip Flask and the extra heal and dodge components make it very good indeed - even if the cool down still sucks. One thought though - no pure mech gives a gnoll's sandal for +2 Dex ... making it all Int would be much nicer (though maybe too much.)

* The 'weak' ranged builds - pure rgr aa or dws, ranged kensai, rog mech and (to a lesser extent) arti - have been a long way behind on dmg for a long time. More than 10 ranged power is probably needed to redress the balance. Throwing some more into the 18 & 20 cores and the T5s would boost the tree without being exploitable by the ranged power builds.

* 80% returning is nice from an inventory pov - will it stack with Deneith returning and the like? Important to note though that this is an inv and quality of life improvement only - going down 1 floor on your airship to buy 21000 bolts once every few hours of play is not THAT much of a pita.

* Adding a ranged version to some of the Assassin enhs prior to killer would be a good indirect boost to pure mechs.

* Adding bows and thrown makes the tree more splashable - not sth I'm likely to do but in keeping with the DDO ethos so good idea.

* Move the light repeater proficiency to the first core - both ranged toons AND rogs have a tough enough time in the early levels without the ranged rog having to rely on crappy gear till level 6.

* Maybe an enh line to extend ranged sneak attack even further would fit the 'sniper' concept.

* A threat reduction line - like assassin & most casters would be nice and again, would fit with 'sniper'.

* 6AP for the top skill action boost is very expensive for sth so situational. I know any well built mech doesn't need it but thematically it feels like you should take it anyway; also, 1/1/1 would help the first life splash builds to afford it and => suck less.

* Pretty much every effective bow or thrown build is based around manyshot and/or 10k stars. Pretty much every effective xbow build is based around repeaters. Manyshot puts dbl shot on a timer, repeaters get reduced rates. Kinda makes dbl shot a bit rubbish compared to dbl strike. maybe this tree could have a line to improve it's % impact with repeaters and DWS could have an abilty to reduce the timer with manyshot? (code allowing ofc.)

* Very curious about new 'high level' traps!

* New 'fat' stacks of lootgen ammo would be awesome.

* How about giving mechs a pet? A Barbarian maybe? It would keep the aggro off us, we have the UMD to res them and it would save points in spot ;)

More to follow no doubt but that's my first impressions.

[Propane]

Aw, forgot about that one in my previous post - the 5 additional meters are not enough to comfortably deal ranged sneak attack - this should be more like +3 meters / core

Amen - at least 3 per core... 10 per core would be fine... you have to NOT have agro to get sneak attack... xbows are not know for there fast rate of fire...

[Dreppo]

Just remember something that has bugged me for a while...

Awareness (WARPRIEST): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save vs traps.
Awareness (HARPER AGENT): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save vs traps.
Awareness (MECHANIC): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot.

Note that the mechanic version does not get +1 save vs traps at rank 3. These enhancements all have the same name and so they don't stack with each other. They should all be brought into sync with each other. It makes no sense that the mechanic version would be weaker than the others. I could understand the mechanic version being stronger, but not weaker.

Of course if it's just an error in the description, then fix the description. Thank you.

[khattiya]

I would play this now and be happy.

Only contrary thought - I don't like to share my toys. I've been jealous of all the cool Arcane Archer enhancements that I can't use with crossbows for ever. I don't mind. They've got their weapon. I've got mine. Except now they get to play with my toys and I still don't get to play with theirs. Bows and thrown weapons seem out of place, but if they get added, I'm not going to complain about somebody else getting something shiny and new to play with. Mechanic makes me happy - I don't mind it making other people happy, too.

Just wondering - I'm not a big numbers guy, but I was expecting something like +1 ranged power per point spent in tree along the same lines as Arcanotechnician getting +1 Universal Spell Power. Too powerful? How about .5 ranged power per point spent in the tree? Like I said, numbers and I don't play well together, but I was expecting something along these lines. If someone could explain why this is a bad idea, at least I'd be learning something. I also kind of expected it would be a core toggle - select melee or ranged as your focus. I don't play melee as a general rule, but that's been part of the tree and I wouldn't want to short change anyone who plays their artificer as a melee.

No remote control? I've always wanted a remote control since running Blockade Buster. I don't want to drop a trap in the middle of a fight. I want to plant traps and blow stuff up from around a corner. Cue the noisemaker. Cue the deadly fire trap. Cue the second noisemaker. Cue the Hold person trap. Run in throwing fire grenades for a fiery finish. Or setting a series of noisemakers to lead the mobs out of one room and into and another and out of my way.

But, like I said, I wold play this now and be happy. Thanks.

[Orleano]

I dont know if you would be able to do it, but how about remotly controlled traps? It could be also awesome to see some higher level scrolls and maybe even making traps with combat scrolls or summoning... I mean rogues are all about versatility, no? Good to see shortbows getting its propper place, i always had a rogue with shortbow in my party in other D&D based games )

[CrackedIce]

I have two main thoughts here.

First I also can't help wonder whether the Crit ranged changes should be moved from core level 18 to core level 12 for the reasons stated above and replace it with 10 RP and add another 10 to capstone.

This is really from gut instanct rather than testing so I am really not sure.

Secondly, and more importantly, how do you guys envision the ranged part of mechanic to differentiate itself from Deepwood ranger? I know you have not made an enhancement pass to ranger yet, but these ranged changes should have the vision for how Deepwood is supposed to look in mind.

[slarden]

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

By spell traps I assume you mean magical traps using level 1-3 spells? It is currently using the disable device skill as you state but is supposed to be 10 + spell level + int modifier which is obviously useless at epic levels.

Are you officially saying that magical traps using the disable device skill is WAI and will remain that way?

[Saekee]

Oh yeah and I know absolutely no ones said it yet <wink wink nudge nudge> but we need a few Named great crossbows...

Perferably ones that emphasize first number damage over affixes and 2% and 5% proc chances... The attack speed is abysmal, so it's going against the grain to make a bunch of great Xbows with lots of secondary elemental damage affixes like Shocking Burst and Cloud Burst and Lightning Strike. On crit effects on the other hand are fair game. On vorpal effects to take advantage of 19-20. Base damage and crit profile to make for heavy hitter first numbers.

Some ideas:

CarniFlex (drops in Deleras this is both a play on the much loved greataxe AND a play on how some people mispronounce the greataxe's name)
ML4
Keen
17-20 expanded base range X3 multiplier (end range with keen is 14-20)
Red slot

Yulthoon's Amorphous Scorpion
ML14
Normal stats
On all hits your Base damage is randomly considered to be 1d4 elemental, light, force, rust or negative, if purple damage is done that element/force/light/etc. is chosen for all subsequent attacks until normal, yellow or Green damage is done where it goes back to random.
On all critical hits the following effects are possible (percentage chosen based on whats best for balance):
Soundburst
Otto Dance Ball
Icestorm
Chain Lightning
Meteor strike
Phantasmal Killer
Earthquake
Summon fashionable Taken
Grease
Ham

Spinesplitter (bone look) Available via Tome of Ledend Turn ins.
ML16
X4
Seeker 10
Heartseeker
Red slot

Unwavering Ballista (Mark of Death raid) looks a little like an Unwavering ardency turned sideways
ML28
3[W]2d12
17-20 X3
Blinding embers, all crits proc an 8 second no save blind
Smoke screen

Great stuff!

Makes me think that the theme of ballista could be emphasized, such as some kind of effect on Archer's focus stacking--speed, amount, additional effects? And hey! One less reason to kite!

[Myrddinman]

You are aware the topic was the abilities that scale with 200% ranged power.

And where is that Ranged power coming from?

Not DPS

I am almost wondering if the intention would be to add Ranged Power to Ranged feats (PBS, Precise Shot, IPS, Rapid Reload...etc)...would be nice and inline with the fighting styles providing Melee Power.


I wondered this as well.

Also that Quiver http://ddowiki.com/images/thumb/Quivering_Quiver.jpg/420px-Quivering_Quiver.jpg is very interesting, could we have more like it. How about a bolt producing version and an epic version with better ammo? Could these produce larger quantities as well such as 200 units.

^ Yes please! We need more quivers (named and random) in general.


Ok but:
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)
+10 Positive Spell Power

Indeed. It is a very compelling reason to go 6 Ranger, along with the +15 meter SA range, +2 SA die, and free feats.


Which is still a very poor showing for something called Mechanic


Oh yeah and I know absolutely no ones said it yet <wink wink nudge nudge> but we need a few Named great crossbows...

^ Yep. Just wanted to bump this idea...again. We absolutely need named Great Crossbows!


Nope. moving it from 18 to 12 would be a mistake and way to powerful for 12 ability.

Also Let me point out that enhancement tree passes are targeted at making class viable not making it a good splash class. The benefits of a splash here and there are all fine and well, but asking for things like the proposed Core 18 to be bumped down, are just the first step for meta-gaining the class right back into irrelevance.

While I agree with all of this, the Mechanic Capstone is underwhelming and as most folks have already mentioned, and going 18 Rogue/2 Artificer will be a better option. So the tree is already promoting an almost automatic splash. I'm not advocating for moving it to the level 12 core, but at least there it would allow for more build variety, since most are going to splash any how.

[Saekee]

Indeed. It is a very compelling reason to go 6 Ranger, along with the +15 meter SA range, +2 . . .how.

Great point--the new bow builds though may want both 10k as well as improved evasion--my Twilight Bow build uses 6 monk/13 rogue/1 fighter elf as an ER version of twilight blade. 6 ranger becomes tricky--you can swap it out with monk but lose 10K; swap it out of the rogue levels for a 6/6/8 split which would be better as 9 monk (for movement speed and improved evasion)/6 ranger/5 rogue or even back to usual monkcher split of 12/6. At least the Twilight Bow split keeps the rogue flavor.

But I reiterate my desire to exclude bows from mechanic tree. Like mentioned above--arbalister/grenadier/saboteur.

[Myrddinman]

Just remember something that has bugged me for a while...

Awareness (WARPRIEST): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save vs traps.
Awareness (HARPER AGENT): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot. Rank 3: +1 save vs traps.
Awareness (MECHANIC): +1/+2/+3 Listen, Search and Spot.

Note that the mechanic version does not get +1 save vs traps at rank 3. These enhancements all have the same name and so they don't stack with each other. They should all be brought into sync with each other. It makes no sense that the mechanic version would be weaker than the others. I could understand the mechanic version being stronger, but not weaker.

Of course if it's just an error in the description, then fix the description. Thank you.

The only thing I can think of is that Mechanic also gets "Mechanic" as well:
+1/+2/+3 Disable Device, Open Lock, and Repair. +1/+2/+3 to Saving Throws you make against traps.

Granted, you have to spend another 3 AP's. So, I would advocate that Mechanics get all of the above (Awareness and Mechanic) in one enhancement.

[Grace_ana]

With it already being so easy to cap ranged attack speed (Shiradi whirling blades + full BAB + just 10% ranged haste is the animation cap), is there any chance we could get a change to throw 2 weapons based on your int/dex similar to shuriken mastery/ninja spy core 2. Throwing 3 weapons per throw is kind of ridiculous but 2 shouldn't be out of the realm of believability, and this IS a tier 5 talent, locking you out of tier 5 for any other tree.

Then again other throwers need love period since 90% of the throwing bonuses in game right now affect shurikens only (10k stars, shuriken mastery, ninja spy core 2) and those only just bring them up to par with other melee weapons/bows. Any thrower besides shuriken is still absolute ****, and some of us would really like to see throwers become viable.

I agree with this, though I would go so far as to say that three at a time is absolutely not ridiculous. Shuriken builds can currently throw an extra shuriken through a lvl 3 enhancement (advanced ninja training) and a feat (shuriken expertise). So most shuri builds are throwing three at a time quite a bit. That's what makes them viable.

I would really love to see this tree make throwing builds viable for other throwing weapons, but it won't unless there is an opportunity to throw 2-3 at a time. I'd suggest putting an extra in a lvl 3 core like in the monk tree and another extra - bringing it to a possible 3 throwers at a time - in tier 5. Otherwise, it's still not enough DPS to make it work.

[SealedInSong]

* Great Xbows could be buffed to be 11-20 x5 4D12 weapons and STILL no one would use them 90% of the time; their attack speed is so slow that you'd still be better off throwing lumps of coal. => Any buffs to Great Xbows are flavour rather than a buff to the tree. (Non-repeating xbows are in pretty much the same boat.)

* Even with 1 sec set times and 8 sec cool downs, elemental traps/grenades (and similar enhs) are underwhelming unless they do a LOT more damage; an average pure mech with 46-50 Int at cap, PBS, combat archery, 17+D6 of sneak attack, a good destiny, a Tier2 TF Xbow or Needle, Know the angles, etc. AND using IPS intelligently, would be better off just keeping that attack button pushed down rather than breaking off to lay a trap. As long as they are ineffectual in terms of DPS, they remain flavour for (again) 90% of the time.

* I have always rated Hip Flask and the extra heal and dodge components make it very good indeed - even if the cool down still sucks. One thought though - no pure mech gives a gnoll's sandal for +2 Dex ... making it all Int would be much nicer (though maybe too much.)

* The 'weak' ranged builds - pure rgr aa or dws, ranged kensai, rog mech and (to a lesser extent) arti - have been a long way behind on dmg for a long time. More than 10 ranged power is probably needed to redress the balance. Throwing some more into the 18 & 20 cores and the T5s would boost the tree without being exploitable by the ranged power builds.

* 80% returning is nice from an inventory pov - will it stack with Deneith returning and the like? Important to note though that this is an inv and quality of life improvement only - going down 1 floor on your airship to buy 21000 bolts once every few hours of play is not THAT much of a pita.

* Adding a ranged version to some of the Assassin enhs prior to killer would be a good indirect boost to pure mechs.

* Move the light repeater proficiency to the first core - both ranged toons AND rogs have a tough enough time in the early levels without the ranged rog having to rely on crappy gear till level 6.

* Maybe an enh line to extend ranged sneak attack even further would fit the 'sniper' concept.

* A threat reduction line - like assassin & most casters would be nice and again, would fit with 'sniper'.

* 6AP for the top skill action boost is very expensive for sth so situational. I know any well built mech doesn't need it but thematically it feels like you should take it anyway; also, 1/1/1 would help the first life splash builds to afford it and => suck less.

* Pretty much every effective bow or thrown build is based around manyshot and/or 10k stars. Pretty much every effective xbow build is based around repeaters. Manyshot puts dbl shot on a timer, repeaters get reduced rates. Kinda makes dbl shot a bit rubbish compared to dbl strike. maybe this tree could have a line to improve it's % impact with repeaters and DWS could have an abilty to reduce the timer with manyshot? (code allowing ofc.)

* New 'fat' stacks of lootgen ammo would be awesome.

All insightful comments.

[FlaviusMaximus]

I would really love to see this tree make throwing builds viable for other throwing weapons, but it won't unless there is an opportunity to throw 2-3 at a time. I'd suggest putting an extra in a lvl 3 core like in the monk tree and another extra - bringing it to a possible 3 throwers at a time - in tier 5. Otherwise, it's still not enough DPS to make it work.

With doubleshot and the fact that anyone can take shuriken expertise, any shuriken thrower can throw 2-3 at a time without needing to dip into ninja spy, but yes, I see your point that there are fewer shurikens per throw than a 3 monk splash would get. With the extra crit multiplier and range at 18 and all of the sneak attack damage, I think if you add a ninja spy type ability to the tree rogue becomes too strong with shurikens. Ranged power is already about to give throwers a boost that they, in my mind, don't need. Making a new throwing combination that is quite possibly stronger than the existing ones is problematic.

However, none of the competence bonuses to throwing crit multipliers are currently working. That means Holy Sword and Swashbuckler are not granting the +1 bonus to shuriken multipliers, which in all likelihood means that it will not work in mechanic either. If those bonuses are not fixed then there is absolutely no incentive to make a thrower that doesn't take at least 3 levels of monk. If they are working as intended, not taking the monk levels isn't optimal, but it is at least much more palatable.

I'm in total agreement with both of you that throwing weapons other than shurikens need a ton of love. There needs to be a feat available that is the equivalent of shuriken expertise that affects all throwing weapons except shurikens. For rogues, it would make sense for an abilitiy like this to be available in one of the early cores, but with daggers.

[Grace_ana]

With doubleshot and the fact that anyone can take shuriken expertise, any shuriken thrower can throw 2-3 at a time without needing to dip into ninja spy, but yes, I see your point that there are fewer shurikens per throw than a 3 monk splash would get. With the extra crit multiplier and range at 18 and all of the sneak attack damage, I think if you add a ninja spy type ability to the tree, rogue becomes too strong with shurikens. Ranged power is already about to give throwers a boost that they, in my mind, don't need. Making a new throwing combination that is quite possibly stronger than the existing ones is problematic.

However, none of the competence bonuses to throwing crit multipliers are currently working. That means Holy Sword and Swashbuckler are not granting the +1 bonus to shuriken multipliers, which in all likelihood means that it will not work in mechanic either. If those bonuses are not fixed then there is absolutely no incentive to make a thrower that doesn't take at least 3 levels of monk. If they are working as intended, not taking the monk levels isn't optimal, but it is at least much more palatable.

I'm in total agreement with both of you that throwing weapons other than shurikens need a ton of love. There needs to be a feat available that is the equivalent of shuriken expertise that affects all throwing weapons except shurikens. For rogues, it would make sense for an abilitiy like this to be available in one of the early cores, but with daggers.

This is true, but I would like to see all throwers get some love, not just daggers. I do see that it would be problematic to be able to stack the extra shuriken options that we do have with other extra thrower options. But there need to be "extra thrower" options for all non-shuriken, and it seems like with the way they are going, it would make sense for those to be in this tree. Otherwise they will still lag too far behind shuricannon builds.

[FlaviusMaximus]

This is true, but I would like to see all throwers get some love, not just daggers.

Well me too, that's why I said I would like to see a feat (or feats) made available that are the equivalent of shuriken expertise but for different thrown weapons. Thematically I'm not sure thrown weapons other than dagger or dart make sense in the Rogue trees. Throwing hammer and axe - those I could see in the fighter or barbarian trees.

[btolson]

I'd like to echo a previous poster's request for a pet to be added to the mechanic tree (a mechanic should be able to build himself a companion). I don't think it needs gear or AP like an arti/druid pet, but should be more like a PM pet. I think we could use a small iron golem model for the pet to make it more unique, rather than an iron defender.

The pet and most of its boosts will have to go into the cores, due to lack of space elsewhere in the tree. You could gain access to the pet at level 1 core, with various boosts in the rest of the cores such as run speed and PRR/MRR and a repair-my-pet active ability, and something quite nice to make it very epic-viable in the capstone (which is still lacking IMO).

[Severlin]

What will the new traps recipes look like/cost?

Some trap info to go with the OP:

~ I believe the crafting costs do not change to be more than the level 11 version; as you craft higher level traps the cost remains the same. We are fairly happy with the trap costs as they stand and trap parts don't drop in significantly higher numbers in higher level content.

~ The elemental damage traps deal 5d6 damage per Minimum Level Required beyond 1. This follows the existing traps form level 3-11. As an example, the level 13 traps do 60d6 and the level 27 traps do 130d6. We will be watching to see if the highest level traps need a bump, but these are the values likely to hit Lamannia.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Single Weapon and Two-handed Weapon players can get up to 10 Melee Power via their respective feats... before hitting level 20. The Vanguard Trees have a Tier 2 Action Boost for up to +30 Melee Power. They then have a Tier 3 Enhancement for up to +9 Melee Power on a Stunning Shield/Blow hit ("Follow Up".) Followed by a +10 from the Tier 5 Enhancement "Armored Strength". All before Epic levels and Epic Destinies.

Yet you (Developers) give a, clearly, ranged Enhancement Tree no Ranged Power, until some theoretical Epic levels and Epic Destiny (that don't even currently exist)? Scaling to 200% Ranged Power, when the Ranged Power is 0, is still 0.

If this is any indication to the "upcoming" Ranged Pass (promised even before the complete changes to the Enhancement systems), then some serious development time needs to be allotted to it, before any more Enhancement changes are made. The idea of "flavor" is thrown out, when the "flavor" is only actually viable in the game... in Epic levels. Ya know, because there are 312 quests before getting into Epic content and all.

Our plan is to have more ranged goodness as part of Update 25. I am not sure if it will be in the first Lamannia build.

Sev~

[UurlockYgmeov]

Some trap info to go with the OP:

~ I believe the crafting costs do not change to be more than the level 11 version; as you craft higher level traps the cost remains the same. We are fairly happy with the trap costs as they stand and trap parts don't drop in significantly higher numbers in higher level content.

~ The elemental damage traps deal 5d6 damage per Minimum Level Required beyond 1. This follows the existing traps form level 3-11. As an example, the level 13 traps do 60d6 and the level 27 traps do 130d6. We will be watching to see if the highest level traps need a bump, but these are the values likely to hit Lamannia.

Sev~
I be thinking that those caravan drivers will be skulking back into the game soon™


Our plan is to have more ranged goodness as part of Update 25. I am not sure if it will be in the first Lamannia build.

Sev~

sweetness.

Beware the Ides of March.... for Temple of Elemental Evil is SOON™ to Lamannia!

[Severlin]

Wow, our players generate comments fast. Replies:

~ On Hip Flask being an action boost: I agree that having a capstone competing with Action Boosts might be a concern. Let me bring this up with the team. (Or at least have the capstone also add some action boosts.)

~ On Wrack Construct: I will bring up concerns with the team. This might be a place where Mechs can make constructs vulnerable to Sneal Attacks for a time.

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

[jaggyjag]

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

Absolutely, could not agree more.

[Spekdah_NZ]

Wow, our players generate comments fast. Replies:

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

Thank you! Played many a ranged SA halfling fighter-rogue. Hoping to one day reroll my monkcher!

[Failedlegend]

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

So will we be seeing a ranged assassinate being added?

[Severlin]

Some more replies:

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

[Failedlegend]

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.


W/ Great X-Bows I'd think they'd have some serious punch what about some PRR and/or Fort Bypass (not that I'd complain about a big pile of SA)



~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.


Any particular reason?

[flagged]

So will we be seeing a ranged assassinate being added?


Some more replies:

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

We already have ranged Assassinate, it's called Coup de Grace.

Now if we could just get Sev and Turbine to explain that.

[flagged]

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.
Sev~



Any particular reason?


Yeah only bards get to do it.

[Bobby88888]

Some more replies:

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

Giving them large SA bonuses tramples all over assassins who are already well behind. Perhaps some PRR bypassing on great xbows to represent the punch they pack whilst remaining unique. They are practically a portable Ballista after all.

[UurlockYgmeov]

We already have ranged Assassinate, it's called Coup de Grace.

Now if we could just get Sev and Turbine to explain that.

*pffffbbbttt!* :P


Yeah only bards get to do it.

Its called bad singing - they make your head explode!

[Qezuzu]

Some trap info to go with the OP:

~ I believe the crafting costs do not change to be more than the level 11 version; as you craft higher level traps the cost remains the same. We are fairly happy with the trap costs as they stand and trap parts don't drop in significantly higher numbers in higher level content.

~ The elemental damage traps deal 5d6 damage per Minimum Level Required beyond 1. This follows the existing traps form level 3-11. As an example, the level 13 traps do 60d6 and the level 27 traps do 130d6. We will be watching to see if the highest level traps need a bump, but these are the values likely to hit Lamannia.

Sev~

Is 455 damage on average really substantial for the HP numbers you see at lvl27? Even as an AoE ability it just seems a bit weak.

[SealedInSong]

Some more replies:

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

I applaud the effort to give great crossbows something to distinguish+incentivize them, but I'd suggest not more sneak attack, but:

armor piercing
heartseeker
knockback (DDO doesn't have this effect really...but it's a wonderful ranged ability in many other games)
staggering blow: Effect: This item is enchanted to make your attacks send enemies reeling. When you roll a natural 20 on an attack with a melee weapon you will knock the target down unless it makes a DC 17 Balance check. (except here, make the balance check scale and not be utterly cruddy)

[Delacroix21]

Some more replies:

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

I asked myself if this tree will make crossbows a viable dps, and the answer is sadly still NO. They attack way to slow compared to meele with even the 40% boost (as there is an animation lock on reloading that slows it down immensely).


Adding more sneak attack is a waste to if you are not going to increase ranged sneak attack distance in the tree (it should be removed like deepwood sniper capstone).


I think great crossbows need BOTH an attack speed boost and 40% double shot. Why? Because a 40% attack speed boost is really more like 10% or less do to a slow animation lock on reloading, and only double shotting will allow crossbow attack speeds to begin to catch up to melee. Or how about intelligence= double shot with crossbows and great crossbows? Like with ninja spy core and shuriken expertise.

[Nandos]

I like the changes so far. It would be nice if the Tier 1 ability Lacerating Shots worked on all non-repeating crossbows. Other than the Korthos quest crossbow, great crossbows seem hard to find the first six levels or so.

[Oxarhamar]

I asked myself if this tree will make crossbows a viable dps, and the answer is sadly still NO. They attack way to slow compared to meele with even the 40% boost (as there is an animation lock on reloading that slows it down immensely).


Adding more sneak attack is a waste to if you are not going to increase ranged sneak attack distance in the tree (it should be removed like deepwood sniper capstone).


I think great crossbows need BOTH an attack speed boost and 40% double shot. Why? Because a 40% attack speed boost is really more like 10% or less do to a slow animation lock on reloading, and only double shotting will allow crossbow attack speeds to begin to catch up to melee. Or how about intelligence= double shot with crossbows and great crossbows? Like with ninja spy core and shuriken expertise.

The boost is in the reload:

•Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.

[Failedlegend]

Adding more sneak attack is a waste to if you are not going to increase ranged sneak attack distance in the tree (it should be removed like deepwood sniper capstone).


I'd be fine with replacing Hip flask with this, call it "Deadeye" or "Makeshift Scope" maybe even add True Seeing or something to it

[Splunge]

Thanks for looking at the mechanic tree. I really like that you're planning to have traps scale into the upper levels, but I have a few issues with the proposed tree:

I'd like to see mechanics be different from other rogues in some way other than xbow use. Having the trap scaling (or new traps) be a T5 mechanic enhancement would give some real flavor to the build. Mechanics should be considerably better with traps than assassins or acrobats.

I haven't given too much thought to it, so I may be missing something, but it looks like repeaters are still a better option for a mechanic than a great xbow. I'd like to see great xbows be clearly superior option. It's something different than every xbow build in every class just using heavy repeaters.

It would be good to increase the AOE of time bomb. When I used to use it as a rogue, it seemed like mobs had to be practically touching the bomb for it to affect them.

[Splunge]

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.
Sev~

I'm glad to hear this. Every rogue shouldn't have every ability from every tree. Assassins assassinate; it's their signature ability. In the same way, as I mentioned in another post, I'd like to see trapmaking be the signature ability of mechanics.

[Blackheartox]

Sev is there any way to add some kind chance proc for assasinate?
I mean like, if you double assasinate the cd resets, or on every assasinate there is a chance based on "something" to reset cd, so that you can do chain assasinates and thus make it superior to bards one.
I mean you can argue with us about bard needing cc, but you forget that you gave bards and stalwards so much inbuilt cc that procing the helpess factor really isnt hard.
To keep assasint top you need to make it either be possible to do it more offten or to add something unique to it.

Bdw sorry for sidetrack.

About thrower att speed, player base has alrdy calculated how the cap to speed caps at 84 (if i remember right) throws, you can freely addd dshoot to it, without even asking.
But keep in mind, not something like straight out 25% heh, 10 or 15% are more then enough and maybe even to much

[HastyPudding]

I'd be fine with replacing Hip flask with this, call it "Deadeye" or "Makeshift Scope" maybe even add True Seeing or something to it

I'm inclined to agree with this. Hip Flask never impressed me, it always seemed out of place. If you're going take a rogue to 20, the capstone should be something great. Something like auto-search with true seeing or 'fletching' becomes 100% returning. Capstones should be interesting, not generic 'you made it to 20, have this sub-par ability that has little to do with your tree'.

[Samones]

Severlin,

I started a post on this last week, which didn't get too far, so I figured I'd summarize my thoughts from the tree.

I like the changes to the constructed traps. The shorter set times and cooldown should be helpful.
Core Abilities: I especially like the update to the critical profile for crossbows. Thematically, rogues have always been about sneak attacks and crits, so this is pretty helpful, though increasing the SA and PBS range would be a nice benefit (maybe add something in the capstone so that it has an active and passive portion like many others?)

The damage increase on non-repeaters will help them keep up with repeaters, at least a little, so that should be good. Also, updating the trap DCs is helpful since even at lower levels the stun was almost never going off. The bleeding damage however gets outscaled very quickly, and I'm not entirely sure that adding 200% ranged power will help enough. At later heroic levels especially, the bleed damage is negligible, even if you stack it up on a boss. I think that if instead of giving a chance to bleed on hit, you changed it to giving 1/2/3 stacks per hit (you could up the AP cost to compensate if you think that it would be too powerful) and keep at least some of the ranged power scaling, then it would actually be a pretty useful ability throughout the entire game.

Fletching is a really handy ability and helps to compete with the Artificer's conjure bolts.
For Leg Shot, at the moment it's a 2 AP with only 1 rank. With the extra ranks being thrown in for more damage, does that mean that it will cost 2/4/6 or will you drop it to 1/2/3 AP?

So far, I like all the T5 enhancements. They're pretty unique and give the mechanic a pretty good damage increase.

Thematically, I like for the most part what you're doing. The only things I might change would be to add another trap which blinds or does something like that, and change the ooze flask to reduce fortification rather than AC, since the difference in to-hit chance doesn't really do much and, especially when the non-repeaters don't shoot as often and you're so incredibly reliant on crits and SA, every shot counts, and fortification bypass will make that happen. One last thing, could we add Int to Hit with ranged/thrown on the core enhancements somewhere? It fits really well thematically, as nothing else in this entire tree really has anything to do with Dex.

Overall, I really like what you're doing. It'll be interesting to see how the changes scale, but so far the changes should help a ton to a tree that really needed a lot of help. Good job, good luck, and thanks for all the work you guys put into this. I know game development and balancing game mechanics (pun intended) aren't easy.

[Delacroix21]

The boost is in the reload:

•Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.

It helps to read the post you quote for future reference.


As I said, a 40% attack speed boost is NOT 40%, as certain animations have animation "hiccups" that stall the speed. This has been tested over the years by MANY people where the counted the number of attacks per min before and after haste, rapid reload, etc. and the % speed increase did not match, it was always significantly lower.


On paper a 40% attack speed increase and a 40% double shot chance should be the same boost in dps, but it's not the case in DDO do to the animation stalling or "locks".

[Delacroix21]

Bdw sorry for sidetrack.

About thrower att speed, player base has alrdy calculated how the cap to speed caps at 84 (if i remember right) throws, you can freely addd dshoot to it, without even asking.


This is a fine example of an animation lock or stall that does not get sped up by attack speed. This gives the attack speed both diminishing returns and a soft "cap".


As this poster said this is well known, so you don't have to "wait and see" the inevitable.

[Saekee]

I applaud the effort to give great crossbows something to distinguish+incentivize them, but I'd suggest not more sneak attack, but:

armor piercing
heartseeker
knockback (DDO doesn't have this effect really...but it's a wonderful ranged ability in many other games)
staggering blow: Effect: This item is enchanted to make your attacks send enemies reeling. When you roll a natural 20 on an attack with a melee weapon you will knock the target down unless it makes a DC 17 Balance check. (except here, make the balance check scale and not be utterly cruddy)

SealedinSong, these suggestions are spot-on intuitive and clever.
The knockback/staggering blow is also in DDO as 'telekinetic;' why not have this as a cooldown 'shot' for xbows like leg shot? Mechanics could pump up their xbows to double their existing fort bypass. The xbow was partially created to break armor so it makes sense to have fort bypass involved. Heartseeker--awesome!

I still feel there should be exploding AoE shots too

[Oxarhamar]

It helps to read the post you quote for future reference.


As I said, a 40% attack speed boost is NOT 40%, as certain animations have animation "hiccups" that stall the speed. This has been tested over the years by MANY people where the counted the number of attacks per min before and after haste, rapid reload, etc. and the % speed increase did not match, it was always significantly lower.


On paper a 40% attack speed increase and a 40% double shot chance should be the same boost in dps, but it's not the case in DDO do to the animation stalling or "locks".

I read the post and it wasn't particularly clear about animation "hiccups" (which I have no idea what your talking about playing a full time repeater on my main for years)

You spoke of 40% attack speed being limited by reload and I supplied the data from the OP that it is actually a reload speed not attack speed since attack speed has little effect on Xbows due to reload.


Data has shown that attack speed has not matched because of reload speeds not being effected. This if it works properly should greatly improve the number of bolts fired by reducing reload speed Not attack speed.

[Oxarhamar]

Our plan is to have more ranged goodness as part of Update 25. I am not sure if it will be in the first Lamannia build.

Sev~

Can you look into fixing the Active attacks like "Leg shot" being lost into the reload if not timed correctly.

[Severlin]

I read the post and it wasn't particularly clear about animation "hiccups" (which I have no idea what your talking about playing a full time repeater on my main for years)

You spoke of 40% attack speed being limited by reload and I supplied the data from the OP that it is actually a reload speed not attack speed since attack speed has little effect on Xbows due to reload.


Data has shown that attack speed has not matched because of reload speeds not being effected. This if it works properly should greatly improve the number of bolts fired by reducing reload speed Not attack speed.

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

[Alisonique]

Just for once I have read (not necessarily taken in) the whole thread. On the whole I feel that it is a good place to go on from.
My contributions are these:
1) If you are going to have a class tat focuses on crossbows , then scale the damage that they do into epic levels and put some more crossbows on the table.
2) the capstone really does need to be improved, as it stands as others have said it is lack lustre, not so much of a capstone, more a tier 4.
3) And yes the boat probably sailed a long time ago, but give me back my dog!! or a mechanical wombat. or a mechanical tortoise, just give it back. Please. something visual that says that the character has a way with mechanical apparatus. you know that they arent game breaking.

[Delacroix21]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

Yes it will, but you are not seeing where a big rogue dps comes from= sneak attack.


Rogues have always gone for the most attacks per min to maximize sneak attack damage. Now if a repeater can fire 50% to 100% more shots over the course of a minute that is an enormous difference in dps between the 2.


If the rogue has even a 70 base damage a shot with a great crossbow, then every +1 crit mutli adds only 70 extra damage on a crit (85 with seeker 15).

BUT!!!!!

A equal level rogue with 30d6 sneak attack (only 1d6 less then great crossbow) with do an extra 105 damage every hit. If that rogue has 30% more attacks per minute that pulls him massively ahead. So yes, I still believe on paper let alone in game great crossbows are not viable yet vs repeaters.




Suggestions=
Double attack % on great crossbows

a bit off topic suggestion=
This tree could also use
Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

That is from deepwood sniper tree and honestly it even outclasses the assassin removal of sneak attack penalty.

[Oxarhamar]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

While the Crit range and the other perks are definitely a factor.

I am most interested in seeing how the reload speed works as attack speed boosted have had little effect on Xbows thanks to the reload speed being uneffected.

Looking forward to testing this on Lamania to see how much of an increase in bolts/min.

[Slasheboy]

Some more replies:

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.

~ If non-repeating crossbows and Great Crossbows are still too far behind we will look into large Sneak Attack bonuses for them.

~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

Please consider decreasing the throwing speed increase from Whirling Wrists' 20%/40%/60% and putting it somewhere in the heroic levels.
It seems silly that non-shuriken throwing builds are only viable with an Epic Destiny.


I really love the idea of placing large SA bonuses for the non-repeaters, but it would still be too weak because of its inability to scale and repeaters' tripleshot are just so much better.
I'll repeat the idea of making non-repeats and GXB shoot two bolt volleys via rapid reload or increasing their attack speed by at least 70%.
If that's not to your taste, how about making GXB and non-repeaters use D10 instead of D6 for sneak attacks and always do SA damage regardless of aggro?

[Jetrule]

I Have a few request for consideration to further buff Rogue mechanics. To make them pure rogues they are very feat intensive. Pointblank shot, Rapid reload, Rapid fire, Precise Shot Improved Precise Shot. This is most of their available feats. Many players will probably want Insightful Reflexes, That's 6 nearly mandatory feats for a crossbow focused pure rogue.

I envision a rogue mechanic as wearing a bit heavier armor. Having good crowd control and being able to pierce others armor. And being the master at trapping. So instead of or in addition to letting mechanics detect traps from farther away I would like a option for auto detecting them from just passing by at -9, like Elves and Shadarkai can do at great a.p. expense.

Adding medium armor proficiency like a war chanter with perhaps granting evasion while wearing medium armor to the tree, and fort bypass maybe even dodge and concealment bypass say 20% to tier 5 sniper bonuses. And giving the capstone a nice +3 or +5 bonus to spot search disable and open locks. I would love to take skill focuses and awareness feats but my rouge is just too feat starved.

I know I could multi class as fighter and get into heavy armor and get my feats for a int. based rogue But I would like to go Rogue all the way.

[HastyPudding]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

I'm happy to hear that. Personally, I'd do away with the alacrity altogether and simply give great crossbows/crossbows a HUGE damage boost. Instead of the large but fast hits you see in most builds (both melee and ranged) you'd see slower attack speed, but massive damage on each hit. It effectively turns the mechanic into more of a ballista/engineer type than a typical ranged build you'd associate with rangers or even artificers.

[Thar]

The improved critical range will boost DPS more than the alacrity, not even considering all the other perks in the tree. We never intended the Alacrity to be the sole reason the tree would do better DPS.

Sev~

Isn't this what people perceive the issue is with Paladin. Not saying it is not good or needed, just cautioning making it too much pending the rest of the ranged pass that we don't know how it will impact all this yet?

[PermaBanned]

From:

~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~To:
~ No plans for a ranged Assassinate.

Sev~

I would be greatly interested in the thought process/rationale behind why it is that a Swashbuckler should have a ranged assassinate (via CdG) but an actual Assassin should not...

[Splunge]

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.

Sev~

Does that mean that it's WAI for spell trap DCs to use the DD skill? That differs from the in game description.

It would be interesting to have the spell trap DCs scale with UMD instead of DD.

[Severlin]

From:
To:

I would be greatly interested in the thought process/rationale behind why it is that a Swashbuckler should have a ranged assassinate (via CdG) but an actual Assassin should not...

Swashbuckler was intentionally designed to support throwing builds as a variant. Assassin is designed to be primarily melee.

Sev~

[Severlin]

Does that mean that it's WAI for spell trap DCs to use the DD skill? That differs from the in game description.


As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.



It would be interesting to have the spell trap DCs scale with UMD instead of DD.

UMD is probably good enough.

Sev~

[PermaBanned]

It would be interesting to have the spell trap DCs scale with UMD instead of DD.Considering how much higher I can get DD vs UMD - I prefer DD based ;)

[Saekee]

responding to: Does that mean that it's WAI for spell trap DCs to use the DD skill? That differs from the in game description.

As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.


Sev~

Could you please clarify how gear affects this DC, if at all? Is it basically one's DD sans gear? Or maybe the gear one is wearing when one sets a trap (which would make sense)? This has a significant effect on the DC, such as the various skill buffs indirectly related (greater heroism, good luck, etc.) as well as direct bonuses to Disable Device.

[Severlin]

Could you please clarify how gear affects this DC, if at all? Is it basically one's DD sans gear? Or maybe the gear one is wearing when one sets a trap (which would make sense)? This has a significant effect on the DC, such as the various skill buffs indirectly related (greater heroism, good luck, etc.) as well as direct bonuses to Disable Device.

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~

[Saekee]

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~

thanks for the quick clarification. It is hard for players to test. It would be strange if it were the gear one is wearing after it is set, not while it is set, although that may be the necessity of coding.

[bbqzor]

As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.

UMD is probably good enough.

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia.

Sigh. I am not sure what to make of these three conflicting statements, but look:
- Traps are NOT something that can be used often. Getting enough parts to support using them like every single fight means you are doomed to spend time doing nothing but farming them, or buying them off the AH.
-Making the DC use UMD is terrible, as its purposefully kept extremely low by comparison to other skills. 5 vs 20 item boost, 3 vs 5 for skill tome, etc. Cha isnt even a core stat for rogues, which are already getting pulled heavily between dex and int. Just no.
- And using DC with or without items is again punishment vs every other class. Casters get spellpower after things like heal or spellcraft items. Bards get coup de grace after perform items. Rogues darn well better get trap DCs after disable items.

All those other classes dont have to farm quest-dropped parts to consume to use their class core abilities. Rogues/Mechanics do. There is no reason to NOT give them the same benefits everyone else gets. Traps have been terrible, and you went above and beyond to offer an unplanned trap pass as part of this update. The last thing I want to see is it get borked at the 11th hour, and then left again to rot as useless for years. Using full DD is fine. It works fine now, it can keep working fine, and people might actually start hopping into this tree as a result. Thats nothing but good for the game.


On Hip Flask being an action boost: I agree that having a capstone competing with Action Boosts might be a concern. Let me bring this up with the team. (Or at least have the capstone also add some action boosts.)
Getting this onto a separate timer is probably necessary. Thats something that will be painfully obvious on Lama, where its better to just splash another class and use haste boost or something. Its already got an EXTREME opportunity cost with a 3 minute cooldown. Also see about lowering the cooldown to 120s. A 50/50 uptime/downtime is fair for a random capstone that rogues will likely be using to heal, more or less.


On Wrack Construct: I will bring up concerns with the team. This might be a place where Mechs can make constructs vulnerable to Sneal Attacks for a time.
Yes that would be nice. Also can you clarify, OP says this only scales with ranged power. Will the melee version scale with melee power? I assume its based on which you select, yes?

Additionally, you covered several other ranged points but havent chimed in on this one: Can they get a ranged bluff effect to enable sneaks at a distance for a short time? Sniper Shot (deepwood, third core, ranged version) is the ability needed here. Otherwise, it will be difficult to ensure crossbow mechanics can even use their sneak very well.

Likewise, can we get an additional 5 ft of sneak range enabled? The tree only offers one 5 ft bump (this takes the range from 30 base to 35). In play, really you need at least 40 before this is relevant... otherwise with chop, latency, imprecise checks vs different elevations, etc its just basically the same as 30. Going to 40 actually gives them breathing room to work with, given a non-perfect massive online environment.

Adding some sort of bluff attack (similar to what new shiv is supposed to do for other rogues, exactly as sniper shot works though without the same combat modifiers per se) is very desireable. Traps cannot win the day 24/7, they are limited by parts. Mechanics arent looking for the +crit range or whatever of sniper shot (thought Im sure no one would complain) but the bluff component is necessary. And getting that sneak range from 30 to 40 is also pretty necessary. Those two things are critical components for being able to play a ranged rogue type consistently.

Lastly, havent seen any mention of changing the skills action boost to 1/1/1. Is there some reason you think its worth 6 ap? I find that pretty tough to believe, maybe itll just show up on lama that way without an update to the OP.

Thanks.

[Impaqt]

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~



Sorry, But If your in the middle of revamping Rogue mechanic, Shouldnt you know how the Trap DC's work?

We dont know because we gave up on traps about 2 minutes after they came out.

Seems to me if Mechanic and trapmaking is being revamped, making sure DC's can reach reasonable levels should be a priority.

It would be really nice to know exactly how the DC's were designed to work and how we can expect them to work as we move towards the Update 25 Release. There are so many mechanics in this game that have poor descriptions. why is it so hard to say "This is exactly how XXX is supposed to work. Please bug report if you find its working a different way"





As of the Update 25 trap pass it is WAI.



UMD is probably good enough.

Sev~

wait. what Update 25 Trap pass? is this something we've seen yet? I though Lammania was still closed....

Edit: ah, I see it in the Op now. Dont remember that being there when this was posted originally. Must of missed it.

[Unsmitten]

Sorry, But If your in the middle of revamping Rogue mechanic, Shouldnt you know how the Trap DC's work?

We dont know because we gave up on traps about 2 minutes after they came out.

Seems to me if Mechanic and trapmaking is being revamped, making sure DC's can reach reasonable levels should be a priority.

It would be really nice to know exactly how the DC's were designed to work and how we can expect them to work as we move towards the Update 25 Release. There are so many mechanics in this game that have poor descriptions. why is it so hard to say "This is exactly how XXX is supposed to work. Please bug report if you find its working a different way"




The DCs for the crafted traps is fine as long as you have points in the enhancement. As far as how they work, it's hit and miss. The only trap I use is the web trap, it lasts 30 seconds. Most of the other traps are either useless or just don't do anything(hold person trap is one example.) The reduced plant/CD times will go a long way to making traps better. Hopefully the devs will be able to tackle the uneven ground issues that make the traps disappear into thin air.

[Qezuzu]

I believe it's the current DC with gear, but I think that's a good thing to test on Lamannia. (We didn't change the implementation from live.)

Sev~


Could you please clarify how gear affects this DC, if at all? Is it basically one's DD sans gear? Or maybe the gear one is wearing when one sets a trap (which would make sense)? This has a significant effect on the DC, such as the various skill buffs indirectly related (greater heroism, good luck, etc.) as well as direct bonuses to Disable Device.


Sorry, But If your in the middle of revamping Rogue mechanic, Shouldnt you know how the Trap DC's work?

We dont know because we gave up on traps about 2 minutes after they came out.

Seems to me if Mechanic and trapmaking is being revamped, making sure DC's can reach reasonable levels should be a priority.

It would be really nice to know exactly how the DC's were designed to work and how we can expect them to work as we move towards the Update 25 Release. There are so many mechanics in this game that have poor descriptions. why is it so hard to say "This is exactly how XXX is supposed to work. Please bug report if you find its working a different way"

Whatever the current implementation of the trap DCs are, it works. Spell Traps, at least Web have incredibly high DCs. Nothing saves, I've only ever seen EE Shadar-ki Assassins walk through the webs. And I can personally attest that things will save often if you forget to equip your DD item.

Also Sev you should double check the implementation of some spell traps. Dance and Blind are traps I've personally seen strange behavior from, Dance for example will hit two mobs but one is only danced for a couple seconds, Blind doesn't seem to ever hit anything. Are spell traps supposed to be single target? They shouldn't be, otherwise there's next to zero reason to use any trap that's not Web, Glitterdust, or Hypnotic Pattern.

[Severlin]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,
~ Making the DC based on UMD was a suggestion of another poster and unrelated to the trap pass.

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

[Impaqt]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

Disable devices = Character sheet Skill? All items and enhancements apply?

[bbqzor]

Clarifications

Thank you, thats as it should be. Hopefully you can get to the other comments later... this tree has seen few (if any?) changes from the thread so far, I guess those are in discussion with the team now? I sincerely hope this tree gets as much attention as the others, despite getting posted later. Id rather see it come in late and right, than on time and wrong, so dont rush anything!


Disable devices = Character sheet Skill? All items and enhancements apply?

Yeah. Its no change from live now, just changing the tooltip to reflect how its working.

[Myrddinman]

I still have not heard anything about named Great Crossbows :(

[Unsmitten]

Core Abilities


Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.


Here are the cores as they are on Live.

Core 1: Arbalester: Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.

Core 3: Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No

Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Half) and are slowed (Reflex DC 10 + Half Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier Negates).

Core 6: Targeting Sights: You can now use your Intelligence modifier for damage modifier with all crossbows and thrown weapons. You also gain proficiency with light repeating crossbows.

Core 12: Improved Detection: You can detect traps and search from 50% further away. You also gain proficiency with heavy repeating crossbows.

Core 18: Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence bonus to Critical Multiplier with Great Crossbows. In addition, this ability reduces the cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks by 20%.

Capstone: Hip Flask: Passive: +2 Dexterity and Intelligence, +1 to hit with all crossbows, +1 damage with all repeating crossbows, +2 damage with non-repeating crossbows, +2 Sneak Attack dice and +2 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks
Action Boost: You drink a potion that you've been saving for a special occasion. For the next 60 seconds, you gain +1d6 to all ability scores, and +2d6 to attack and damage. (Cooldown: 3 minutes)
"A little something of your own creation. Potent stuff, drink sparingly."


Sev,
Over all, I think this tree will be great, BUT I have a couple issues with it.

First, the DCs for Tanglefoot, Thunderstone and Ooze Flask will still be to weak for EE content, adding epic level*2 like another suggested or at least epic level to it would make them viable.

My other issue is with this adding bows to the tree. Personally,(and everyone will not share this view) I think it should only be for crossbows and throwing like it has been. That is, unless(If-then) the Arcane archer tree is opened up to crossbows. Another, more fitting idea is to allow bows to benefit from the sniper hit/damage and Fletcher(and Rapid Fire as they can now). Instead exclude bows from the crit profile updates in the core. Also, I would like to see the cores beefed up even more then you plan.

Core I should be as it is, but add(like Deepwood Stalker) 5 SA/PBS range with each core/no max range at Capstone

Core II DC should be (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level(*2) + Intelligence Modifier Negates)

Core III Change name to Improved Sight, and combine the Int to damage with xbow/thrower with the 50% increased search/detect range.

Core IV move core 5 to 4 and read as follows. Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for crossbows and thrown weapons.

Core V could be Master Arbalest, and read as follows. You gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with crossbows and thrown weapons. As well as a +1 Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for Great Crossbows(in addition the the bonus granted from Expert Builder)

Capstone I would propose get rid of the dodge bonus, replace it with a static +5 ranged power and make it no longer an action boost.


Obviously this is How I would like to see it, but for sure the DC of the enhancement based flasks will suffer in EE if they are not boosted.

This is exactly how I see it, and is why I suggested moving the 18 to 12 and buffing great crossbows more with the 18. You forgot to mention that bards get massive crit profile boosts at LEVEL 3 on a wide array of weapons. The way the cores for Mechanic are now, they are terrible until 18.

Wow 5 extra SA/PBS range.

Sweet, a slightly better DC for what was a completely useless flask.

Oh hey, int to damage for 1 less enhancement point then I can get from Harper.

Woah, 50% more search range, as if we didn't already memorize where every trap in the game is.

Here we go, finally I've gone pure rogue and now I get some better crits, who needs to make heavy splashes anyways. I'll just make a Sunelf 18 Rogue 2 Monk, the best AA ever man. Turbines gonna make some serious dough from all the +5 Lesser Hearts. Hm, what ever happened to (great) crossbows being the focus?

Sorry Sev, I know you don't like sarcasm in posts and the last quote from me is, but it is also the truth. The cores(especially 1,3,6,12) need more work. Now should I be the one to decide them? No, but having played mechanic builds for years(even back when the enhancements were all jumbled together, before trees) so I do have a good basis for making suggestions for them.

I have had change of thought process for some of the cores, but here I will lay them each out.

CORE 1: Arbalester: Increases your ranged sneak attack and point blank shot range by 5 meters for every core(including this one) and no maximum range with the capstone. You also gain proficiency with great crossbows.

I realize it is exactly the same as the Deepwood Stalker(Sniper as I will always know it) Core 1. with what is being suggested now, this tree begs for you to go pure or at least 18 rogue. So you can't really splash ranger levels for the extra range.


CORE 3: Targeting Sights: You can now use your Intelligence modifier for damage modifier with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. You also gain proficiency with light repeating crossbows and the use of Tanglefoot Flask.

Tanglefoot: Cooldown: 30 seconds. Spell Resistance: No

Alchemical Trap Activate: Throws a flask of caustic liquid at your enemy, which explodes into a sticky mess. Enemies caught within by the goo puddle take 4d6 acid damage every 2 seconds (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level*2 + Intelligence Modifier Half) and are slowed (Reflex DC 10 + Rogue Level + Epic Level*2 + Intelligence Modifier Negates). Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power.

Another instance of something another tree does easier, Mechanic should have it's int to damage core moved down from 6 and combined with 3. Currently it takes 6 levels and 11 points invested to obtain. I suggest making it require level 3, and 6 invested AP. Why? because otherwise I will invest in the Harper tree which requires level 3, and 12 AP invested to use. That and otherwise the core has no passive benefit other then a flask that could still be ineffective without a bigger DC boost.


CORE 6: Improved Detection: You can detect traps and search from 50% further away. You also gain 1 extra Sneak Attack die and proficiency with heavy repeating crossbows.

Simply moving the core 12 down to 6.


CORE 12: Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for crossbows and thrown weapons. In addition, this ability reduces the cooldowns of Alchemical Trap attacks by 20%.

Again, moving the cores down a tier and saving bows for core 18. In order to keep crossbow multi-class options open, while at the same time not giving monchers another leg up.


CORE 18: Master Tinker: You gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bow,crossbows and thrown weapons. As well as a +1 Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows and Great Crossbows(in addition the the bonus granted from Expert Builder.)

This will give 18 or pure Rogues a significant boost to great crossbows, which 18-20 rogue is the only class that currently uses them in addition to opening up bows as an option.


Capstone: Hip Flask: Passive: +4 Intelligence, +5 Ranged power, +2 Sneak Attack dice and +2 to hit when performing Sneak Attacks

Hip Flask: You drink a potion that you've been saving for a special occasion. Heal for 10d6(positive for flesh/Repair for Warforged, much like LoH) and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. For the next 60 seconds, you gain +1d6 to all ability scores, and +2d6 to attack and damage. (Cooldown: 2 minutes) (Edit#2 forgot some text - The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.)
"A little something of your own creation. Potent stuff, drink sparingly."

Replace the 2 dex with 2 int, because if you are going 20 rogue for mechanic, you won't use dex. Replace the +hit/damage with +5 Ranged power, this is more thematic with other recent enhancement updates. And of course, changing this from an Action boost to a self contained Capstone ability.

Sorry for the wall of text, please give your feedback or do I stand alone?

EDIT: Forgot this suggestion. Make the Capstone a multi-selector between Hip Flask and Sniper Shot(Deepwood Sniper core 6)

Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

[Livmo]

Clarifications:

~ Traps DCs are determined by the Disable Device skill of the person who is setting it.
~ The DC is determined when the trap is set. I was trying to say that players should play with it when it hits Lamannia,
~ Making the DC based on UMD was a suggestion of another poster and unrelated to the trap pass.

It is unlikely Mechanic changes will be available for the first Lamannia pass, but trap changes should be there.

Sev~

Please keep the DC based on DD. Thanks!

[Ayseifn]

Swapping spell DC traps to UMD could be interesting, basing them off of DD is just the Coup de Gras problem all over again where it's trivial to get to no fail levels.

[Unsmitten]

Swapping spell DC traps to UMD could be interesting, basing them off of DD is just the Coup de Gras problem all over again where it's trivial to get to no fail levels.

While it is "similar" DD for DC has been around for years, long before CdG. Traps use DD to DC, CdG uses 1d20+perform. Unlike CdG, traps don't instakill, so why are you comparing the 2? Keep the CdG complaints in the CdG complaint threads and out of the Mechanic discussion please.

[IronClan]

~ If we hit caps on throwing speed on Lamannia or in testing we can replace alacrity for double shot for throwing weapons.


Why not start bucking this boring trend the entire game is going towards with MOAR SPEED and MOAR PROCS and add some options for more first number damage instead? +[W] instead of Double strike, Die size increases, Enhancement bonus increases, Seeker, Ranged/Melee power.

Let's differentiate Shurikens and Other throwers instead of just copying them, make other throwers more about first number damage (like you're trying to do with Great Xbow) and less about machine gun procs/Affixes.

This is the Bed that was made by TF crafting being so lopsided towards weapon speed and proc frequency. Just look at the comments in this thread:



* Great Xbows could be buffed to be 11-20 x5 4D12 weapons and STILL no one would use them 90% of the time; their attack speed is so slow

But there need to be "extra thrower" options for all non-shuriken, and it seems like with the way they are going, it would make sense for those to be in this tree. Otherwise they will still lag too far behind shuricannon builds.

That's the first two I saw catching up on the most recent unread page.

With the game's lag issues I do not understand the Designers insistent plung towards more computationally intensive and higher client server communication back and forth that comes with speeding up attacks and adding more Procs per second.

A larger Crit does not take more client server communication (a larger sum is still only 1 calculation, and only one update sent back and forth) 30% alacrity takes 30% more physics checks... 30% more checks to see if something proc'ed

3 100 damage attacks in a second is 300DPS**

1 300 damage attack in a second is 300DPS

One of them costs three times more physics checks* and thus peak server overhead when a bunch of people are all beating down mass mobs, that's 3 times more glances, 3 times more double strike chances...

All of which were a problem that Prompted your predecessor to to make the Update 5 combat changes that included eliminating stacking alacrity.

* But it's not just that: one of them has up to 6 Meteoric Augments that need to be checked (1 red and 1 orange slot X 3 attacks) up to 3 preffix procs up to 3 Suffix slots, 3 T1 3 T2 and 3 Mortal Fear checks, 3 times more checks to see if Vulnerability procs (and don't tell me the game refuses to check every time because it can only apply once per 1 second, I'll eat my hat if you guys coded it to be that efficient) if it's a THF or Bastard/Daxe that's 3 checks for glances, and 3 checks for Affixes going off on those glaces... Etc. etc. etc.

** disclaimer granted most players are not attacking this fast the number was chosen for convenient math, that said I'd guess Shuricannon and Wolf builds are attacking faster than 3/per second, with Vanguards and SWF approching that (I believe I've seen 2.5) when optimized.

[IronClan]

Great stuff!

Makes me think that the theme of ballista could be emphasized, such as some kind of effect on Archer's focus stacking--speed, amount, additional effects? And hey! One less reason to kite!

You know this reminds me of an old idea I had that would entice people to actively use Archers focus, for every 2 seconds you don't move you gain X1 on a 19-20 up to something fun like X10


but would be cool as a GreatXbow effect, on a 20 roll every stack of Archers focus you have is given as a crit Multiplier... (or a mini version: seeker bonus)




Sorry for the wall of text, please give your feedback or do I stand alone?

EDIT: Forgot this suggestion. Make the Capstone a multi-selector between Hip Flask and Sniper Shot(Deepwood Sniper core 6)

Sniper Shot: Ranged Attack: Performs a ranged attack with +2[W], a +4 bonus to-hit, +2 to critical threat range, and +2 to Critical Damage Multiplier. On Damage: The target will become momentarily confused and rendered vulnerable to sneak attacks for four seconds as if affected by the bluff skill. (Cooldown 6 seconds)

You definitely don't stand alone, I've made similar proposals, the cores as they stand are too much like the mistakes they made with the Enhancement pass trees.

1. You have to be 18 Rogue before the fun starts
2. you have to be 6 rogue before you get use of your main stat investment
3. way too restrictive to multiclassing past a splash
4. conversely it virtually guarantees a 2 Arti splash.
5. Other alternative stats like DEX are usually in Core 3

Holy Sword is lvl 14 and buffs the best most optimal weapons in the game.
Expert Builder is level 18 and buffs only random generated great crossbows or a GS one, until you can make a Thunderforged.

Keep normal Bows at 18, put GXB at 12 put INT in Core 3... seems like much smoother advancement.

Improve the cap *a lot*, more thoughts on that when I get some time.

[Unsmitten]

You know this reminds me of an old idea I had that would entice people to actively use Archers focus, for every 2 seconds you don't move you gain X1 on a 19-20 up to something fun like X10


but would be cool as a GreatXbow effect, on a 20 roll every stack of Archers focus you have is given as a crit Multiplier... (or a mini version: seeker bonus.

I was thinking something similar for archer's focus. My thought was to give something like 2-4 prr/mrr for every stack of archer's focus while standing still. Would help to aleviate kiting, annoying the melees who have to chase less.

[Delacroix21]

Well after envisioning making a greatcross bow rogue with this tree (after they buff it more as what is in there now is not enough), I noticed the tree is kinda boring.


Aside from the alchemical bombs (which I doubt I will use) the only ranged active skill is leg shot, kinda lame. No endless fusillade or a sniper shot or any sort of cool "overload" where you fire 5 bolts at once, with like a 15 sec cooldown.


Please add something as this tree preety much only utilizes auto attack which is boring.