Rogue - Mechanic (and Traps) Proposed Changes

[ArkoHighStar]

I am still having issues with crossbows somehow gaining all this damage over a bow with no penalty to rate of fire. Crossbows from the middle ages were not meant to be superior to bows, they were meant to provide long range combat abilities to soldiers who had no skill with a longbow. They were easy to use but had really low rates of fire especially if you were trying to match the draw weight. A hand drawn crossbow simply couldn't put out the same amount of power as a longbow, you would have to go to mechanically pulled bow strings either using a winch or a leverage device called a goats foot. Both these methods were extremely slow.
Even then crossbows were much less accurate. So it makes no sense to me that if you give these bonuses to crossbows you should give them to bows as well.

This video is a great demonstration of the difference

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HagCuGXJgUs

[flagged]

Those are just fancy-looking, fantasy recurve bows, nothing more.

But where is the bow of Sinew! it's so cool looking and cool in use as well, it's kinda Bio-mechanical right? right? aw come on! right?

[depositbox]

repeaters are way faster than both of those combined.

[Severlin]

Out of curiosity, why is it "(whichever is higher)" rather than "(whichever is applicable for the current weapon)"?

It is determined by the weapon you are wielding.

Sev~

[IronClan]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

[flagged]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

Uh clan?



~ A rogue archer and rogues skilled at throwing are staples in fantasy so we wanted a place for them, and this tree seemed the best of the three.

Sev~

And don't be so hard on the posters trying to get buffs for bows, they are no worse or any more self-serving than the people who asked that Expert builder be made a lev 12 core with a straight face. ;)

[gwonbush]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

[HastyPudding]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

Too easy to be abused. The level 18-20 cores are supposed to be strong to make a pure or near-pure class viable.

[Deathdefy]

A few things.
1) Maybe increase the PBS/SA range for Great Crossbows. If the idea is to be super cool snipers (please tell me the idea is to be super cool snipers), give it another 10-20m somewhere in mech (or make it infinite like DWS 20 since I can't imagine it's popular enough that people will be bothered).

Don't give that bonus to repeaters. I might even go with great crossbow for the first shot then follow up with a repeater (assuming AI is fixed so that mobs care about mobs standing next to them being shot at some point).

2) Please fix timebomb in 2 ways.

2.1 - not hitting things in its AoE. To see it being dreadful and not hit anything I recommend Tempest's Spine (inside the building - almost literally anywhere - particularly obvious is the group of drow at the rare drow Ranger). Alternatively The Fallen Shrine walkup in Menechtaurum on the mephits.

2.2 - damage scaling into epics. I don't have first hand experience with this, but logically, 2k (max, more like 1k or nothing if mobs can evade and saves are high) means it's not super viable to use in EEs. I don't know the solution, but I don't think it's just "sometimes it crits". Having its DC scale off DD at least means it will probably be the full 2k, and knockdown is somewhat useful. There's already a huge trade-off in forcing rogues to get in close, and even more so in removing stealth on its use. On that, I'd be pro- letting the mechanic stay stealthed after planting the time bomb.

3) I agree with IronClan about the bow posts.

[Thar]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

fury can impact all weapons.

not ever archer has both many shot and 10k stars and non can do 100k in secs. full rangers can only do many shot, even 18 rangers can only do many shot. rogue archers get neither. one min max combo is not representive of all archers. not everyone can be stuck in that ED forever too. after 9 etr what do you do? go into any other ED and you stink with slow dps that maybe does 60-80 damage a shot.

longbow can only get to 18-20 max in one ED. great crossbow can get to 14-20.

bows are slow dps and only x3 multiplier.

[Thar]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

too much risk of breaking another multi class combo at 12.

[flagged]

I do think that 1 of critical multipliers for great crossbows should be moved to core 12. Gaining 2 critical multiplier at core 18 is kinda spiky.

Oh no Gwon, it's much funnier than that, see the posters were asking for the original +1 threat range, +2 crit multiplier version to be made a lev 12 core! how they typed that without dying of the giggles we may never know!

Lev 12!

[ArkoHighStar]

I find the person lobbying to give bows an uneeded buff based on a verisimilitude arguments to be disruptive and off topic and drowning out much needed mechanic feedback.

Bows have Many shot and 10kStars and do probably the highest burst damage possible in the game of all classes with Furyshot, which can drain a hundred thousand HP's off a raid boss in seconds. Furthermore a Long bow can reach the same or similar crit profile as a 18 rogue Mechanic can get with a Great Crossbow. Lobbying for a buff to bows as though they aren't still the A#1 ranged DPS is laughable, You might as well ask for a buff to Paladins because Assassins just got X2 multiplier. In any case this isn't the place to do it IMO.

Many shot requires either heavy investment in another class or burning 2 feats to get it. 10k stars requires 6 levels of monk and a wisdom build and zen archery. Not exactly rogue friendly builds here. The repeating and non repeating crossbows are coming out ahead in a major way. A long bow requires either burning a feat, a limited race choice or going shiradi champion. Xbow builds get everything without having to multiclass or burn feats at all. At the very least the same should apply to shortbows and throwing daggers which are just as iconic as rogue weapon as a crossbow.Giving non repeating crossbows all this extra damage with no speed penalty just seems ridiculous.

With these changes a non repeating crossbow is doing 6d6 more sneak attack damage and and additional 11 point base damage over any bow or throwing wepaon, plus base damage gets 2W.

[Magil]

1) Maybe increase the PBS/SA range for Great Crossbows. If the idea is to be super cool snipers (please tell me the idea is to be super cool snipers), give it another 10-20m somewhere in mech (or make it infinite like DWS 20 since I can't imagine it's popular enough that people will be bothered).

That sounds like mad fun. I doubt it'll ever be implemented. I'm already enjoying the Mechanic enough as is (except the problem with Time Bomb not always hitting).

[JonD]

It is determined by the weapon you are wielding.

Sev~

Thanks, Sev. Glad it was just a typo.

[Unsmitten]

Oh no Gwon, it's much funnier than that, see the posters were asking for the original +1 threat range, +2 crit multiplier version to be made a lev 12 core! how they typed that without dying of the giggles we may never know!

Lev 12!

Wrong, we were asking for 1 range and multiplier at 12 and gxb getting another multiplier at 18. The devs did not do this, we got over it, but you keep bringing it up. You are the only one giggling and i find your demeanor on these forums repulsive.

[VinoeWhines]

I assume the dex builds you tested with took KTA for 8 AP as many dex assassins will do - since int is a strong secondary stat for rogues and the damage boost is worth it. I won't be changing my gear, the only thing in my build that will change is selecting dex instead of int where it is a choice. This means my int drops by

7 level ups
4 starting point
8 enchancements
4 ED
-----------------------
23 Total

Change in int modifier: 12

Change in KTA damage: 6

I lose 6 damage from KTA but gain no mercy, haste boost and other things from Acrobat tree.

I was previously taking

racial tree: 6 (2 int but with 2 wasted AP to get it)
assassin tree: 41 (4 int - same as a dex build)
acrobat tree: 8 (0 int)
Harper Tree: 25 (4 int + KTA + 6 MP + Agent of Good)

Now with shadowdodge I can save 2 AP and skip the racial tree and get my dex from harper tree

racial tree: 0
Assassin tree: 41 ( 4 dex and nothing else changes)
acrobat tree: 25 (5 dex + no mercy + haste boost)
Harper tree: 14 (2 dex + KTA + 5 MP + Agent of Good)

I get 11 dex instead of 10 int. I lose 6 damage from KTA and 1 MP, but I gain haste boost and no mercy. I am not sure how my dps is going down. This doesn't count doublestrike and the other benefits. I see only upside here. I also have the option to get 2 dex from tumbling and 4 dex from tenser's as a consumable. The downside to int yugo pots is fairly rough so I didn't use those. There is no downside to dex pots so I will get +2 from that all the time. I wouldn't use the tensers scroll option often, but in difficult content where it is needed I certainly would take the 1 second to do it before an assassinate. Same with tumbling. This means my dex will be 2-4 higher than I would with an int build depending on whether I use the +4 dex necklace from haunted halls (+1 from enh, + 1 from necklace vs. int optic int +3, +2 from yugo pots). My assassinate is 2 higher and with tumbling and tenser's it is 5 higher for difficult content situationally.

I will also say if you make double strike in acrobat apply only to staffs, you should change lethality to apply to only daggers and kukris to be consistent. I don't think changing either is needed.

Overall I was able to eliminated 6 wasted AP (4 from harper tree and 2 from racial tree) and I gained 1 feat which for me would translate to a level 27 epic feat.

How is this effecting the Mechanic?

[Jetrule]

That sounds like mad fun. I doubt it'll ever be implemented. I'm already enjoying the Mechanic enough as is (except the problem with Time Bomb not always hitting).

Aren't you getting pb and sneak attack from max range? I am. I don't have object draw set to max but one less so as not to strain my ancient graphic card.

[VinoeWhines]

Greetings, Sev.

This is an interesting point on traps.



TRAPMAKING:

It's a great idea, but suffers too many technical and resource problems to be a viable addition to any playstyle right now. I've been testing them on my Rogue2/Wizzy18 Drow PaleTrapper, and I have found the following:

*My Crafted Trap DCs are very high, but this is meaningless if the traps never trigger or land properly. Mobs have a habit of slightly skirting the trap, even if they are chasing you with full aggro multiple times across the trapped area. And I don't mean 5-10 feet away, they go right up to the trap, do a little sidestep jig and run by, not triggering them at all. Very frustrating. I am an excellent kiter, but it is ridiculous how close I have to drag a group to a trap before it will do anything. I would suggest increasing the trap activation radius by quite a bit, unless mob AIs can be adjusted to not basically make a "running evasion maneuver" that they should really NOT be able to do while chasing a jumping, hasted, tumbling target at top speeds. They also have a tendency to run *around* a freshly-burst Web or Grease Crafted Trap area, more than their AI should allow.

*Another idea to help make Crafted Traps viable would be to add the ability to *remotely detonate* a placed trap, so that the user could time the explosion or spell burst effect. (And the tech is already in the game from the Blockade Buster quest in Lordsmarch plaza.) This would allow a skilled user to get the most out of emplaced Crafted Traps, and fit better with the theme of a Mechanic who uses Magical Tech to DPS and/or CC. Without this ability, there is a ridiculous amount of kiting needed to get mobs near a Trap Killzone. It would add a layer of tactical gameplay that would appeal to many players who don't want to just do "max DPS" as their only playstyle. And it would make DDO more fun! :) Traps are a unique feature of DDO, and the devs could really emphasize this with some changes to Crafted Traps to make them more viable.

*MAGICAL trap parts are currently too rare to cost as much as the other trapbuilding recipes. They don't drop often enough from a reliable source of Spellwards to be farmable. So a user's supply of Web, Grease, Ottos and other traps becomes an always-shrinking stockpile taking much scrounging to keep up on. In fact, the elemental trapmaking costs are also a bit high, especially if you are going to make Crafted Traps a part of your routine. Melle do not need to make and consume any doohickeys to do Sword DPS, and the Ranged and Spell Attack components (arrows and spell components) are obtained inexpensively from a variety of sources. I would suggest cutting the costs of the first component in each trap recipe (Magical or Elemental trap parts) at least in half. Mechanical trap parts and the Elemental Essences are readily available and are fine for costs.

*I agree with many previous posters that the AoE of a triggered Magical Trap is too small right now. Making stuff like Deep Slumber or Slow traps is pointless, as they never land. Often the mob triggers it in a run-across and the effect hits right after it leaves the area. They don't even get a save, it just doesn't hit. Currently this is a dead-end area of Crafted Trapmaking and needs to be addressed to be playable.

*The damage of the Elemental Traps is also too low. One idea would be to make Crafted Elemental Traps whose DPS output is based on the SPELLPOWER of the one that crafted them. So each trap would have a quality rating, adding that spellpower to the elemental damage when the traps goes off (DCs would still be based on the Disable Device skill of the one setting it). It could easily cost a higher and higher amount of elemental trap parts to "infuse" a trap with a higher Spellpower Rating, and certainly should have minimum Disable Device skill ratings to even place such traps (so low-level characters could not purchase/craft very high level traps and use them in lowbie dungeons). I like this idea, because it addresses the usable DPS issue of Epic-level traps, while also creating a new economy within the game for interdependent Crafted Trap Parts Farmers, Trapmakers and the skilled Trappers who would actually use them as a reliable source of DPS. I know I'd get back into the Auction House Game of DDO again to both sell and buy these items, or the components used in making them. And it would give some new activity to the game, as people would have a reason to create skilled Trappers and Trapmakers, farm trapped dungeons for parts and spend some time in this Crafting Mini-game! :)

Just a few ideas on how this unique aspect of DDO can be improved. I hope the devs give it more attention, as I really enjoy this playstyle and hope it becomes viable for Epic play in the future. I play an Engineer in GW2 and have a lot of fun with it, as the class is designed to use Magical Technology for DPS and Crowd Control (and Healing in that game), making it a flexible and fun addition to the mix. The Eberron campaign setting that DDO is set in has a huge backstory of using magical tech and it would be great to have this reflected in the actual DDO game mechanics as well.

<See? Ghallanda Downtime had a positive impact today, time to post this....> =P


If traps where to be laid out in multiples of five, with the eight second timer, than the damage would be a little underpowered but putting out 5 at the same time would help. But as it is, even though the timers have been improved, the time it takes to lay them down one by one, is a nuisance for party members not wanting to wait for you to do your little hobo stove setup, when there are thoroughbreds waiting to be off to the races in melee damage.
If you go "rogue" and leave the group behind, so you can get a head start to place the traps then you might have a chance.

I would like for there to be a mechanic tree option to lay multiple traps of five, something that at the entrance of a dungeon you could self buff yourself, with an extended animation, that is showing as you prepare your equipment and tools for questing organizing your traps so they can be laid out in multiples, and the buff can leave on resting at a shrine or on leaving a dungeon. Just like fast detect traps, this should be an option for mechanic. Another option as well is a remote detonation boulder toss type trap, that causes the walls/ceiling to virtually collapse and do bludgeoning damage along with pierce/shrapnel damage also causing a daze/hamstring effect on even a save, that could add to Rogue CC affects.

[VinoeWhines]

I don't see how repeaters are overpowered at all. They're looking to be underpowered.
All the youtube videos showing two handed weapons hitting for high numbers and glancing blows, while soloing Epic Elites. I haven't seen any videos where repeaters are even coming close to half the damage output of these melee types.

What gear and rogue build choices are there to say that these are overpowered. I don't see any level 20/28 rogues doing any such thing.

[Magil]

Aren't you getting pb and sneak attack from max range? I am. I don't have object draw set to max but one less so as not to strain my ancient graphic card.

From what I can tell? No. Not as a Mechanic, anyway. You get something like 70-75 feet. Granted, that's a fairly long distance, and you'll likely hit most things unless you're in a fairly large map. Something like Gwland's Stand, for example. In standard group play, you should be getting it most of the time.

Fortunately, Mechanic has a lot of really useful things to stretch out the distance. Tanglefoot, Leg Shot, and the Web Spell Trap should work wonders. I like to start shooting from as far as possible, and I doubt I'm hitting PBS every time.

[Jetrule]

TRAPMAKING:

It's a great idea, but suffers too many technical and resource problems to be a viable addition to any playstyle right now. I've been testing them on my Rogue2/Wizzy18 Drow PaleTrapper, and I have found the following:

*My Crafted Trap DCs are very high, but this is meaningless if the traps never trigger or land properly. Mobs have a habit of slightly skirting the trap, even if they are chasing you with full aggro multiple times across the trapped area. And I don't mean 5-10 feet away, they go right up to the trap, do a little sidestep jig and run by, not triggering them at all. Very frustrating. I am an excellent kiter, but it is ridiculous how close I have to drag a group to a trap before it will do anything. I would suggest increasing the trap activation radius by quite a bit, unless mob AIs can be adjusted to not basically make a "running evasion maneuver" that they should really NOT be able to do while chasing a jumping, hasted, tumbling target at top speeds. They also have a tendency to run *around* a freshly-burst Web or Grease Crafted Trap area, more than their AI should allow.

*MAGICAL trap parts are currently too rare to cost as much as the other trapbuilding recipes. They don't drop often enough from a reliable source of Spellwards to be farmable. So a user's supply of Web, Grease, Ottos and other traps becomes an always-shrinking stockpile taking much scrounging to keep up on. In fact, the elemental trapmaking costs are also a bit high, especially if you are going to make Crafted Traps a part of your routine. Melle do not need to make and consume any doohickeys to do Sword DPS, and the Ranged and Spell Attack components (arrows and spell components) are obtained inexpensively from a variety of sources. I would suggest cutting the costs of the first component in each trap recipe (Magical or Elemental trap parts) at least in half, =P


For these two points I have a insight and a suggestion.

Monsters A.I. know traps are there in many quests and will skirt them. The A.I. must be working simmilar for player set traps.

As to the rarity of magical trap parts. Relic of a sovereign past is my go to quest for them. Can be boring I know but alot can be salvaged on the long downward spiral passage on elite.

[HastyPudding]

For these two points I have a insight and a suggestion.

Monsters A.I. know traps are there in many quests and will skirt them. The A.I. must be working simmilar for player set traps.

As to the rarity of magical trap parts. Relic of a sovereign past is my go to quest for them. Can be boring I know but alot can be salvaged on the long downward spiral passage on elite.

That brings up an interesting question: if the AI knows a trap is there, it moves around it, but what if the AI does not see a player set down a trap? Do they know where said trap is?

[Jetrule]

That brings up an interesting question: if the AI knows a trap is there, it moves around it, but what if the AI does not see a player set down a trap? Do they know where said trap is?

The specific example I am thinking of is the quest Thorn and Paw. This quest has large pit traps and in one case some pod zombies spawn across the trap from players. If you range attack them they will skirt the edge of the cave to reach you. The only safe way around the pit. It makes me wonder if the Player set traps are perfectly visable zones for them?

[slarden]

How is this effecting the Mechanic?

The post I responded to was in this thread so that is where I responded. Since rogues often take things from the other 2 rogue trees there are some overlapping topics.

[Grace_ana]

Sev, can you talk about why throwers aren't getting the additional SA dice? I mean, they aren't exactly OP. I was really hoping that mechanic thrower builds would be viable once you guys added them to the tree, but with the changes that have been made, they are going to be just way behind anything. I want to throw something other than shuriken and have it work. It makes no sense to add them into the tree, but then not give them the damage they need to play well.

[VinoeWhines]

The post I responded to was in this thread so that is where I responded. Since rogues often take things from the other 2 rogue trees there are some overlapping topics.


Ya, synergies, Sev we need more synergistic branches in our trees please.
The Rogues have spoken.
Thank you for your time spent hearing our plea.
We were always on your side, even if you don't ever see us.

[ArkoHighStar]

Sev, can you talk about why throwers aren't getting the additional SA dice? I mean, they aren't exactly OP. I was really hoping that mechanic thrower builds would be viable once you guys added them to the tree, but with the changes that have been made, they are going to be just way behind anything. I want to throw something other than shuriken and have it work. It makes no sense to add them into the tree, but then not give them the damage they need to play well.


The simple fact is the devs see mechanic as a crossbow centric PRE. With these last set of changes I am not even sure why they added bows and throwing weapons at this point. the problem is mechanic is a turbine creation, so its whatever they want it to be, and has no correlation to what rogues can be. The rogue PRE's are the most cookie cutter of the PRE's in my opinion. Acrobat is Qstaff or nothing, assasin is pretty much daggers or nothing, and mechanic you get a choice between repeaters or non repeating crossbows.
It makes for boring build choices.

[VinoeWhines]

The simple fact is the devs see mechanic as a crossbow centric PRE. With these last set of changes I am not even sure why they added bows and throwing weapons at this point. the problem is mechanic is a turbine creation, so its whatever they want it to be, and has no correlation to what rogues can be. The rogue PRE's are the most cookie cutter of the PRE's in my opinion. Acrobat is Qstaff or nothing, assasin is pretty much daggers or nothing, and mechanic you get a choice between repeaters or non repeating crossbows.
It makes for boring build choices.

The reason according to Sev, I believe was that it went with the theme of Rogues in general, they wanted to add those other range options such as shortbows and throwing daggers.

[VinoeWhines]

"Acrobat is Qstaff or nothing, assasin is pretty much daggers or nothing, and mechanic you get a choice between repeaters or non repeating crossbows.
It makes for boring build choices."

This right here, is the limiting thing, Rogues are made for utility, weapon choice should be part of that utility.

THAT! Right there is the theme of my Rogue. being flexible able to use different tools for different situations, and right now my build choice for me, is almost where I want it to be.

I hopefully will put up a video to show the flexibility of the Rogue, I melee when in close quarters and must fight, I range when I must fight a mob and there's no way around it so that when in melee range they are softened up quite a bit, and traps of course cause them to stumble towards me when they spot me. Crowd Control some of them to manage the onslaught, Assassinate them at every opportunity. We just need better defenses. I understand as a first lifer it's harder. I haven't TR'd at all to stay and show what a non TR'd Rogue can do as a first lifer. I have nothing against TR'ing which I probably will do just to unlock the 4th twist, which I would like to have.

[ArkoHighStar]

The reason according to Sev, I believe was that it went with the theme of Rogues in general, they wanted to add those other range options such as shortbows and throwing daggers.

then don't do it halfway, because they are not really options when crossbows are so much better than bows.

Its sad when I do testing and a +1 great xbow literally does double the damage as my lit 2 bow and has a faster sustained rate of fire.

[ArkoHighStar]

"Acrobat is Qstaff or nothing, assasin is pretty much daggers or nothing, and mechanic you get a choice between repeaters or non repeating crossbows.
It makes for boring build choices."

This right here, is the limiting thing, Rogues are made for utility, weapon choice should be part of that utility.

THAT! Right there is the theme of my Rogue. being flexible able to use different tools for different situations, and right now my build choice for me, is almost where I want it to be.

I hopefully will put up a video to show the flexibility of the Rogue, I melee when in close quarters and must fight, I range when I must fight a mob and there's no way around it so that when in melee range they are softened up quite a bit, and traps of course cause them to stumble towards me when they spot me. Crowd Control some of them to manage the onslaught, Assassinate them at every opportunity. We just need better defenses. I understand as a first lifer it's harder. I haven't TR'd at all to stay and show what a non TR'd Rogue can do as a first lifer. I have nothing against TR'ing which I probably will do just to unlock the 4th twist, which I would like to have.

to be honest I am perfectly ok with theming a PRE

Mechanic=ranged
assassin=twf
acrobat=THF or bludgeoning

but limitng them to specific weapons just makes it hard to build something different. I was actually excited about taking my original char out of mothballs and building a 14 rogue/6 ranger bow wielding elf, and I got him to lvl 18, before seeing the changes and then testing xbow damage vs my bow, and the results made me use my +20 heart and switch to all rogue xbow user last night. At least I found a use for storm, which has been sitting in the bank since 2006, but I regret wasting all those ingredients on a useless dual shard weapon.

Anyway its highly unlikely Turbine is even going to bother doingthe testing to show just how much great xbows oiut damage bows on a mechanic so I have joined the flock and gone crossbow.

[elcagador]

to be honest I am perfectly ok with theming a PRE

Mechanic=ranged
assassin=twf
acrobat=THF or bludgeoning

but limitng them to specific weapons just makes it hard to build something different. I was actually excited about taking my original char out of mothballs and building a 14 rogue/6 ranger bow wielding elf, and I got him to lvl 18, before seeing the changes and then testing xbow damage vs my bow, and the results made me use my +20 heart and switch to all rogue xbow user last night. At least I found a use for storm, which has been sitting in the bank since 2006, but I regret wasting all those ingredients on a useless dual shard weapon.

Anyway its highly unlikely Turbine is even going to bother doingthe testing to show just how much great xbows oiut damage bows on a mechanic so I have joined the flock and gone crossbow.

Well, you can still use your bow for manyshot using the harper tree for int to hit and dmg (once you get enough bab for 4 arrows), while using a Crossbow for sustained dmg while manyshot is on cooldown. If you level Fury destiny you can try the AA tree for burst dmg with manyshot+adrenaline+slayer arrow/sniper shot while keeping the crossbow for sustained dmg. or using manyshot for building master blitz stacks in Ld if using a great crossbow instead a repeater.

Also shuriken is another viable weapon option with mechanic tree.

Edit: Ah, you used a +20 heart, then the bow is not useful if you went all rogue, you leave some burst dmg but gain better sustained dmg.

[Severlin]

Sev, can you talk about why throwers aren't getting the additional SA dice? I mean, they aren't exactly OP. I was really hoping that mechanic thrower builds would be viable once you guys added them to the tree, but with the changes that have been made, they are going to be just way behind anything. I want to throw something other than shuriken and have it work. It makes no sense to add them into the tree, but then not give them the damage they need to play well.

Some throwing weapons are improperly built and don't carry along all properties when they are launched. What weapon are you using? Have you tried alternate throwing weapons?

Sev~

[Unsmitten]

Sev, could we get some info on mechanic getting a bluff shot?

Assassins get shiv, which is melee only, without a multi-selector for ranged.

Maybe you could add bluff to Wracking shot.

[flagged]

Some throwing weapons are improperly built and don't carry along all properties when they are launched. What weapon are you using? Have you tried alternate throwing weapons?

Sev~

The poster is referring to the absence of a sneak attack die being added to thrown weapons on tier 1-5 sharpshooter by design, not a bug.

Similar to the way bows can't use the targeting sites, some confusing choices have been made for the tree as a whole. I am using GxB myself, so it is working fine, but there is little to no way you can use the Bow, throwing weapons, with any kind of effectiveness.

[Vanhooger]

I tried again timebomb after latestpatch, and is getting worse. Can you please make that t5 worth something? Maybe make it cost sp & put a much bigger cooldown for a decent damage & real chance to knockdown as it is now is useles, 1,5k damage on a 15k trash mob, knockdown never ever work on EE. Basically a useless t5.

[VinoeWhines]

I for now don't plan on Tiering Mechanic tree up to 5, but really time bomb should really be a trapped version of Mortal Fear AOE, based on Disable Device and Rogue level. (five to ten foot radius 95% DD score effective AOE, 15 to 20 feet radius 50% DD score effective AOE).

Any one can tier a weapon with that effect, mechanics should and have a way of tinkering with it to make it more affective in a timed bomb.

[rmi]

The tier5 mechanical reloader does NOT show up in character window. And i'm pretty sure it doesn't give any alacrity either when shooting.

Can this be confirmed and fixed?

[flagged]

The tier5 mechanical reloader does NOT show up in character window. And i'm pretty sure it doesn't give any alacrity either when shooting.

Can this be confirmed and fixed?

Disclaimer: I'm not a developer.

Disclaimer: I'm a Mechanic nut.

That said, I have been doing testing since the lamma previews and yes the reloader speed boost is DEFINITELY working. It's not listed on the character sheet, and it does not have a UI icon, but it is indeed working.

As is fletching.

Now sneak attack range boosts per core? nope.
Ongoing sneak attack on blinded mobs? nope.

But reload is working, so rejoice.

P.S. it would be nice to have a Dev confirm this.... but don't hold your breath.

[gwonbush]

So nobody is mislead: the cores DO increase the sneak attack range, just not at the amount that the description states (at least according to flagged's testing).

[Ausdoerrt]

The poster is referring to the absence of a sneak attack die being added to thrown weapons on tier 1-5 sharpshooter by design, not a bug.

Similar to the way bows can't use the targeting sites, some confusing choices have been made for the tree as a whole. I am using GxB myself, so it is working fine, but there is little to no way you can use the Bow, throwing weapons, with any kind of effectiveness.

Yeah, at first I was excited to roll a bow mechanic, but after playing around with it, the addition of bows and thrown weapons seems kind of half-hearted.

[VinoeWhines]

Why don't they add DEX to damage on the Mechanic Tree as well, since the Assassin change, INT based assassins have been improved, but not INT based Mechanic. There should be a DEX'd based Mechanic as well, so that Mechanics can have a DEX'd based damage option, whichever is higher.

[Tlorrd]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:


The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.


Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.



Core Abilities


Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.


Tier One



Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.


Tier Two


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)


Tier Three


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.


Tier Four


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.


Tier Five


Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


Sev~

Couple of things I'd like volunteer to update from original above and current game ...

Traps:
- Change timing so that the animation and time trap is armed to 1 second total ... the game speed has increased in all areas
- Change cooldown of traps to 3 or 4 seconds ... again at that time the thought was that folks would be laying an army of traps before encounters ... that has proven to be untrue in the current game standards of semi to full zerg ... rather traps should be useful both in battle ground planning and heat of the moment battle ... like Regular vs Quickened Sleet Storm or other AOE CC spell ... it can be used pre-battle and during battle
- Grenade and Mine DCs should be same as Elemental and Spell DCs ... why have different scaling systems in today's game?
- Grenade and Mine damage should scale with 200% (or 400%) MP or RP, whichever is higher ... this is still a pittance compared to not using these at all

Spell Traps to possibly add: Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, some other new cool idea ... maybe something from the new alchemist spell list.

Mechanic:
Add 2 more alchemical traps
- Change DCs to be either DD related or scale appropriately in more difficult content
- Timebomb - make more reliable for terrain issues or change it into a shot that does the damage and knockdown (Cooldown 12 secs)

Sharpshooter line change to +1/+2 and +1 SA dice with GXB and +1/+1 with no additional SA dice for any other XB
Fletching - add metalline to your bolts in addition to what it currently gives now
- change the return rate to 70/80/95% ... this is T4 and given at T2 in Falconry (this doesn't save me AP by having to then spend 8 AP in Falconry for same effect)
Expert Builder - add back in +1 Crit range with GXB as originally intended. This is very deep in cores and thus requires Rogue commitment, or add it to capstone
Hip Flask - boost this to be a 30 second boost (not action boost) with 90 sec cooldown that really adds the max dodge, dodge, damage to the boost as well as a heal DOT for those 30 secs. There should be a reason that is compelling to take this capstone rather than no good reason. Add in RP and/or doubleshot for GXB.
Rapid Fire - change to 5/10/20% Double shot ... give me a reason to go T5 in mechanic
Move Light Repeater prof to Core 2 (level 3)
Move Heavy Repeater prof to Core 3 (level 6)
Give Precision feat at Core 4 (level 12)
Give Shot on the Run feat at Core 5 or Core 6 (Level 18 or 20)

Currently T5 Inq and Inq capstone give me no reason to take T5 in mechanic or its capstone. Currently they are mutually exclusive thus please make it compelling to choose one over the other.

Thanks for reading.

[Kutalp]

Couple of things I'd like volunteer to update from original above and current game ...

Traps:
- Change timing so that the animation and time trap is armed to 1 second total ... the game speed has increased in all areas
- Change cooldown of traps to 3 or 4 seconds ... again at that time the thought was that folks would be laying an army of traps before encounters ... that has proven to be untrue in the current game standards of semi to full zerg ... rather traps should be useful both in battle ground planning and heat of the moment battle ... like Regular vs Quickened Sleet Storm or other AOE CC spell ... it can be used pre-battle and during battle
- Grenade and Mine DCs should be same as Elemental and Spell DCs ... why have different scaling systems in today's game?
- Grenade and Mine damage should scale with 200% (or 400%) MP or RP, whichever is higher ... this is still a pittance compared to not using these at all

Spell Traps to possibly add: Sleet Storm, Solid Fog, Acid Fog, some other new cool idea ... maybe something from the new alchemist spell list.

Mechanic:
Add 2 more alchemical traps
- Change DCs to be either DD related or scale appropriately in more difficult content
- Timebomb - make more reliable for terrain issues or change it into a shot that does the damage and knockdown (Cooldown 12 secs)

Sharpshooter line change to +1/+2 and +1 SA dice with GXB and +1/+1 with no additional SA dice for any other XB
Fletching - add metalline to your bolts in addition to what it currently gives now
- change the return rate to 70/80/95% ... this is T4 and given at T2 in Falconry (this doesn't save me AP by having to then spend 8 AP in Falconry for same effect)
Expert Builder - add back in +1 Crit range with GXB as originally intended. This is very deep in cores and thus requires Rogue commitment, or add it to capstone
Hip Flask - boost this to be a 30 second boost (not action boost) with 90 sec cooldown that really adds the max dodge, dodge, damage to the boost as well as a heal DOT for those 30 secs. There should be a reason that is compelling to take this capstone rather than no good reason. Add in RP and/or doubleshot for GXB.
Rapid Fire - change to 5/10/20% Double shot ... give me a reason to go T5 in mechanic
Move Light Repeater prof to Core 2 (level 3)
Move Heavy Repeater prof to Core 3 (level 6)
Give Precision feat at Core 4 (level 12)
Give Shot on the Run feat at Core 5 or Core 6 (Level 18 or 20)

Currently T5 Inq and Inq capstone give me no reason to take T5 in mechanic or its capstone. Currently they are mutually exclusive thus please make it compelling to choose one over the other.

Thanks for reading.




https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQgypEznHCzzee6EbBWFkrUyzVtby1r5 cXT00P8HHckmBD6IXrQ

Greetings Tlorrd. :)

[Hazelnut]

- Change cooldown of traps to 3 or 4 seconds ... again at that time the thought was that folks would be laying an army of traps before encounters ... that has proven to be untrue in the current game standards of semi to full zerg ... rather traps should be useful both in battle ground planning and heat of the moment battle ... like Regular vs Quickened Sleet Storm or other AOE CC spell


Or, alternatively, add trap effects to grenades? So rogues can throw web grenades and other AoE type things.

But I can see actually using traps (I play rogues, I like traps) if I could kite and drop traps as I run. But this would need to work more like kiting and shooting.

Also trap (and grenade) damage is so low compared to crossbows that I have taken to just ignoring them.

Plus, traps disappear too quickly to be able to lay down a selection of traps before bringing in the mobs.

The only time I use traps now is when soloing where I know I have choke points to drop web and other CC type traps. I can't collect enough trap parts to use them as a primary tool.

Likewise, I only use grenades for specific targets where I don't have good weapons (like against undead/ghosts when I haven't got the right weapons). Same problem as with traps. Not enough ingredients to use as a primary tool.

[Kutalp]

Rogue Interplanar Practitioner :


The new and revamped Rogue Mechanic. Education Archeology, Engineering, Arcane lore, Divine lore, Wilderness lore, Electronic technician, Computer studies.(Astrophysics etc)


1) Flash Strike: A trap that blinds hostile npcs. Aoe effect. Calculated over Your highest ability stat + Character level (Up to 30) + Disable trap skill. Timer upgrades with character level.

2) System Shock: A trap that slows, fatiques, confuses, nauseates hostile npcs with rolls to % chance. Calculated over Your highest ability + Character level (to 30) + Disable trap skill. (Said additional effects are added through Mechanic enhancements and levels to trap)

3) Server Down: A trap that casts web and chance to Hold aoe with timer. Calculated over your highest ability + Character level (to 30) + Disable trap skill. (Said additional effects are added through Mechanic enhancements and levels to trap)


4) Clockwork monsters

with uniques effects. They vanish after timer. They re neither summon nor companion. [The power of healing and other buffs or debuffs over monsters is calculated over Highest ability stat+ Character level + Disable trap skill + Use magic device skill]


4a) Mechanical trap Casts clockwork small Rust monster that drops hostile npcs attack and damage ability drastically as if eating their weapons.


4b) Mechanical trap Casts clockwork small Basilisk monster that has calculated chances for turning hostile to stone with a cone attack. If npc fails the saves. Effect is permanent.


4c) Mechanical trap Casts clockwork replica of Celestial Planeforged Has the ability to heal the Mechanic and the team. Can locate Blade barrier. Through levels new spell like effects for buff and healing can be added.



5) Repair/Dismantle Construct. Aoe effect trap first Dazes Constructs without save then Dismantles (Hostile npc) them or Repair them (Friendly player or npcs construct). -amount every turn/- amount. Upgrades with character level + Highest ability stat + Disable trap skill + Use magic device skill.


6) Mechanical armor/Weapon. (lvl 8+) Gives the mechanic extra carry limit. Elemental resistance scaling with level. Temprorary hitpoints and Deflect arrows ability. Extra saves. Upgrades with Mechanic levels and character levels.

Mech weapon toggle effect: Choose type +1d6 lvl2/2d6 lvl5/4d8 lvl8 /6d10 lvl 12/8d12 16/ 10d14 lvl 24 20d20 lvl 30 /Force/Sonic/Elemental effects. Upgrades through Mechanic level, Character level up to lvl 30. (Can not be activated with Inquisitve like enhancement trees. Works only with Mechanical weapons)



7) Mechanical Planar Gift Box: Carried and upgraded by the character through levels: Upgrades with Rogue level, Character level, Highest stat, Search, Spot, Disable traps, Use Magic/Electronic device.

Spell like abilites cast by Mechanical Gift Box with cooldown : Grease (lvl1) Upgrades with character level and your highest stat, Shield (lvl3), Invisiblity (lvl5),Hologram (lvl6), Dimension door (lvl8), Planar Dismissal Upgrades with character level and your highest stat (lvl 9), Teleport (lvl10),Planar Globe of Invulnerability (lvl 11), Planar Shadowalk (lvl12), Planar Banisment(lvl13) Upgrades with character level and your highest stat, Greater teleport (lvl15), Planeshift (lvl20) Teleport between settings.




https://heavyeditorial.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/stargate-e1520655594272.jpg?quality=65&strip=all&w=734


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5VpFN7DNrw


Thanks for reading :D

[Souless]

Here are the proposed changes for the Rogue Mechanic tree.

Trap Update

Constructed Traps will be have the following changes:


The time to set a trap will change to 1 second.
The time for a trap to arm after it has been set down will change to one second.
The cooldown between setting traps will be changed to 8 seconds.
The time traps persist for will be lowered to 60 seconds.
New traps for higher levels will be introduced with higher damage. Players will be able to craft traps all the way up to level 27, with an appropriate increase in damage.
Trap feedback will be sent to the player who set the trap. This means you will see damage numbers for your traps.

Note that the DC for elemental traps and spell traps will remain as they are on live, using a percentage of Disable Device and increased by Mechanic and Artificer talents.


Grenade DCs will be increased to 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 2) for heroic, and 10 + (Minimum Required Level * 3) for epic levels.
New grenades with higher minimum levels and increased damage will be introduced.


Having only limited use of traps I don't have much to say. Other than to say FASTER is BETTER. No one will wait while a rogue is laying down traps. At least the players I run with will go sprint boosting by and kill everything while ur still tying ur shoe.



Core Abilities


Tanglefoot: Acid Damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. Both DCs are now 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier.
Improved Detection: You also gain +1 to hit, +1 damage, and 1 extra Sneak Attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons.
Expert Builder: You gain a +1 Competence Bonus to Critical Threat Range and Critical Multiplier for bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Critical Multiplier increases to +2 for great crossbows.
Hip Flask: The action boost portion of Hip Flask now also heals you for 10d6 and adds +10 to Dodge and Maximum Dodge when activated. The healing scales with 200% Ranged Power. The Dodge and Maximum Dodge last for 10 seconds.


Any discussion of rogue core abilities MUST include auto-find/auto-disable traps. Anything short of adding these to ALL rogue trees is a slap in the face to any non-Inq rogue.

Also, the Hipflask is ineffective at best. When compared against others, it is one of the worst in the game.



Tier One



Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Lacerating Shots: The Bleed scales with 200% Ranged Power.
Thunderstone: The damage scales with 200% Ranged Power. The DC is now 12/16/20 + Rogue Level + Intelligence bonus.


Tier Two


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wand and Scroll Mastery: (1/1/1 AP)


Tier Three


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Wrack Construct: Damage is increased to 3d6/6d6/9d6. Damage scaled with 200% Ranged Power.
Ooze Flask: The DC is increased to 10 + Rogue Level + Intelligence Modifier. Also reduces all types of the target's Damage Resistance by 10/20/30 with no saving throw. Damage now scales by 200% Ranged Power.


Tier Four


Crossbow Training: Now called Sharpshooter. +1 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +2.
Fletching. You are skilled at enhancing, salvaging and re-purposing your arrows, bolts, and throwing weapons. You gain 10 Ranged Power and your ammunition gains 50%/65%/80% returning chance.
Leg Shot: Also does +2/+4/+6[W] damage.


Tier Five


Sharpshooter: +3 to hit and damage with all bows, crossbows, and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase the damage to +6.
Mechanical Reloader: You reload repeating crossbows 20% faster, draw thrown weapons 20% faster, and reload non-repeating crossbows 40% faster.
Time Bomb: Cooldown is now 20 seconds. Time to set the bomb is now very fast. Time before exploding is now 2 seconds. Saving Throw to negate knockdown now uses your Disable Device skill as the DC.
Sniper: (2 AP): You gain 1 extra sneak attack die with bows, crossbows and thrown weapons. Non-repeating crossbows increase this to 2 sneak attack dice and also gain +1[W]. Great crossbows now Vorpal on a 19-20.


Sev~

These actually look good. I have a couple of questions:
1. Does leg shot still slow down the target(s)?
2. Ooze flask? Does this ability work with bows/crossbows?

The Bytcher~

Souless/Spectyr/Xbow/Valice/Tazzor/Xindao
Ascent

[PsychoBlonde]

This thread is 5 years old, dude. That ship has sailed.

[Cordovan]

Closing as /necro.