Captain Jack Dancer - F12/Bd7/C1

[Feithlin]

This is my take on the swahbuckler PrE.


https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AGeig_bn41s/T2zEFJ8RwDI/AAAAAAAAEZo/OTR0rzeds0k/s684/AC3_SC_SP_18_Boston_PortVista_ONLINE.jpg

The build has a high strength with SWF line, and range feats for furyshot. The following build is a 34 points with +3 tomes.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Jack Dancer
Level 28 True Neutral Human Male
(12 Fighter \ 1 Cleric \ 7 Bard \ 8 Epic)
Hit Points: 374
Spell Points: 636
BAB: 17\17\22\27\27
Fortitude: 15
Reflex: 12
Will: 12

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 28)
Strength 16 26
Dexterity 14 17
Constitution 14 17
Intelligence 11 14
Wisdom 9 12
Charisma 15 18

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Strength used at level 3
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 3
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 3
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 3
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7
+3 Tome of Strength used at level 11
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 11
+3 Tome of Constitution used at level 11
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 11
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 11
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 11

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 28)
Balance 6 18
Bluff 6 35
Concentration 6 15
Diplomacy 2 12
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 12
Heal -1 18
Hide 5 14
Intimidate 2 12
Jump 3 16
Listen -1 9
Move Silently 6 28
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform 6 35
Repair 0 10
Search 0 10
Spellcraft 0 10
Spot -1 9
Swim 3 16
Tumble 3 12
Use Magic Device 6 35

Level 1 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Human Bonus) Power Attack


Level 2 (Cleric)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Silver Flame


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Single Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Ranged Weapons


Level 4 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Point Blank Shot


Level 5 (Fighter)


Level 6 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave


Level 7 (Fighter)


Level 8 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Bow Strength


Level 9 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Single Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Manyshot
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Rapid Shot


Level 13 (Fighter)


Level 14 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Critical: Ranged Weapons


Level 15 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Single Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Bard)


Level 18 (Bard)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 19 (Bard)


Level 20 (Bard)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Single Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Epic Reflexes


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting




First draft of enhancements:

Swashbuckler [35 AP] - Core x 3 | Tier 1: On your toes (3), tavern shanties (3) | Tier 2: En pointe (3), Doublestrike boost 3 (6) | Tier 3: Dashing scoundrel (1), +1 Cha (2), Resonant arms 3 (6) | Tier 4: Slap in the face (1), +1 Cha (2) | Tier 5: Second skin (2), Exploit weaknesses (2), Coup de grâce (1).
Kensei [23 AP] - Core x 4 | Tier 1: Extra AB 3 (6), Haste boost 3 (3), WGS (2) | Tier 2: Agility 2 (4) | Tier 3: +1 Str (2) | Tier 4: +1 Str (2).
Warpriest [4 AP] - Core x 1 | DM 3 (3).
Radiant Savant [4 AP] - Core x 1 | Wand mast. 3 (3).
Warchanter [8 AP] - Core x 2 | Tier 1: Poetic Edda 3 (3), Rough & ready 3 (3).
Human [6 AP] - Core x 2 | Tier 1: Str action surge 3 (3).

Final scores should look like this (it would obviously be higher with better tomes):

Attributes
Str 82 (+36) = 16 base + 3 tome + 7 level + 10 item + 1 eStr + 3 enh. + 11 surge + 14 dm + 4 skaldic + 5 primal + 4 tenser + 2 ship + 2 yugo
Dex 40 (+15) = 14 base + 3 tome + 11 item + 4 iDex + 4 tenser + 2 ship + 2 yugo
Con 44 (+17) = 14 base + 3 tome + 10 item + 4 iCon + 5 primal + 4 tenser + 2 ship + 2 yugo
Int 14 = 11 base + 3 tome
Wis 13 (+1) = 8 base + 3 tome + 2 ship
Cha 38 (+14) = 15 base + 3 tome + 2 enh. + 10 item + 1 eCha + 3 iCha + 2 ship + 2 yugo

This would give a base damage mod. of +72 :)

Saves
Fort save 51 = 12 classes + 4 epic + 17 con + 10 item + 4 parrying + 1 alchemical + 4 GH + 3 luck - 4 yugo
Ref save 64 [70] = 9 classes + 4 epic + 2 eReflexes + 15 dex + 10 item + 4 parrying + 1 alchemical + 3 SB cores + 6 Second skin + 2 Agility + 4 GH + 3 luck + 1 Haste [+ 6 Unearthly reaction twist]
Will save 35 = 12 classes + 4 epic + 1 wis + 10 item + 4 parrying + 1 alchemical + 4 GH + 3 luck - 4 yugo

Important skills
Perform 78 [83] = 23 ranks + 8 epic + 14 cha + 20 item + 4 gh + 3 luck + 6 iCha skills [+ 5 competence]
UMD 58 [61] = 23 ranks + 8 epic + 14 cha + 4 gh + 3 luck + 6 iCha skills [+ 3 persuasion]
Balance 27 [42] = 7 ranks + 8 epic + 15 Dex + 4 gh + 3 luck [+ 15 item/augment]
Bluff 78 = 23 ranks + 8 epic + 14 cha + 20 item + 4 gh + 3 luck + 6 iCha skills
Move silently 67 = 17 ranks + 8 epic + 15 Dex + 20 item + 4 gh + 3 luck

Miscellaneous
Dodge 16% (19%) = 10% item + 3% SB cores + 3% on your toes (+ 3% unearthly reaction twist)
PRR 50 (25.67%) = 14 light armor + 6 rough & ready + 30 sheltering
Doublestrike 20% (50%) = 6% item + 2% kensei cores + 2% SB cores + 7% SB style + 3% ferocity (+ 30% doublestrike boost)
Attack speed (not sure how it will stack) 149.5% (194.35%) = 100% normal speed x 1.3 gSWF x 1.15 Speed XV (x 1.3 Haste boost)

Note: Doublestrike and haste boosts are mutually exclusive since they're both class boosts, but both can be used with human damage boost.

In the build, I took IC: piercing for Balizarde (http://ddowiki.com/page/Balizarde,_Protector_of_the_King) (ending crit profile is 15-20/x4). Other weapons of choice are: Skullsmasher (http://ddowiki.com/page/Skullsmasher_%28Level_25%29) (bludgeon, ending crit profile is 15-20/x4), Axe of Unseen Blow (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Axe_of_the_Unseen_Blow) (slashing, ending crit profile is 15-20/x4).
Still good candidates, but slightly lower in their crit profiles are: Drow light maces (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Light_Mace_of_the_Weapon_Master) (13-20/x3), Drow rapier (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Rapier_of_the_Weapon_Master) (13-20/x3), Drow shortsword (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Shortsword_of_the_Weapon_Master), Rebellion (http://ddowiki.com/page/Rebellion), Razorend (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Razorend) or eCutthroat (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_Cutthroat%27s_Smallblade_%28Tier_3%29) (13-20/x3), and Drow dagger (http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Drow_Dagger_of_the_Weapon_Master) (13-20/x3).

The build suffers a bit on the defense side, even if it has good Ref saves (but no evasion) and easy displacement (which could come from GS clickies). A way to improve it would be to include Dodge feat (in exchange for extend probably), which would add +3% dodge, but also up to 3% more from kensei enh.

VARIATIONS ON THE BUILD

S&B version

Abandoning range option gives 6 feats back, which can be used to improve defense. The best option is probably to go with S&B. At first, there seemed to have exclusivity between swashbuckling and SD stance. This shouldn't be the case in the final release. The big question is how to distribute AP. I'll keep SB tier 5 to maintain good Ref saves. At first, I thought about a simple variation of the build, but it has much more implications than just a few different feats. Mainly, using SD stance implies: investing a significant amount of AP into SD tree, using another ED, since fury looses much of its umph into SD stance.

[CThruTheEgo]

I've considered a similar split, but a much different build. You don't have build goals or enhancements listed so I'm going to guess at a few things. You're not taking the weapon focus/weapon specialization line of feats, so you can't be investing much into the kensai weapon group enhancements, but you're taking power surge (you have 11 surge listed in your strength breakdown and power surge only gives 8 btw), so you are investing at least 21 points into kensai. And since you aren't investing in the weapon group, I'm guessing that fighter is mainly to give you the feats to include a ranged option?

I'm not sure about the value of investing so heavily in ranged on a swashbuckler build. You will get a lot out of furyshot, there's no doubting that, but you'll lose any benefit from swashbuckler when you switch to range. And I'm assuming you're investing a lot into swashbuckler since you aren't investing a lot into kensai. You'll have the versatility of both melee and ranged, but I just don't see much synergy between them tbh. It is certainly an interesting way to include a ranged option on a swashbuckler.

A build I've considered with a similar class split would take kensai's keen edge, swashbuckling, and run in divine crusader for celestial champion. Together these give Balizarde an 11-20x4 crit profile, which is insane. But this build would lack a ranged option and have poor saves, so I'm not too keen on this split.

What will your defenses (i.e. saves, dodge, hp, prr, self-healing, etc.) end up being on this build?

[whereispowderedsilve]

Just a minor nitpick, how is it a bard if it has a fighter icon? :P! :P! :P! Hehe! Lolz!

Cool concept though! Cheers! Keep up the great work! :)! :D! :P!

[XL_Jockey]

...you have 11 surge listed in your strength breakdown and power surge only gives 8 btw...

Human racial enhancements give you up to +3STR when any boost is going, which is how he's getting the extra 3.

[CThruTheEgo]

Human racial enhancements give you up to +3STR when any boost is going, which is how he's getting the extra 3.

Ah, that makes sense.

[Feithlin]

I've considered a similar split, but a much different build. You don't have build goals or enhancements listed so I'm going to guess at a few things. You're not taking the weapon focus/weapon specialization line of feats, so you can't be investing much into the kensai weapon group enhancements, but you're taking power surge (you have 11 surge listed in your strength breakdown and power surge only gives 8 btw), so you are investing at least 21 points into kensai. And since you aren't investing in the weapon group, I'm guessing that fighter is mainly to give you the feats to include a ranged option?

I'm not sure about the value of investing so heavily in ranged on a swashbuckler build. You will get a lot out of furyshot, there's no doubting that, but you'll lose any benefit from swashbuckler when you switch to range. And I'm assuming you're investing a lot into swashbuckler since you aren't investing a lot into kensai. You'll have the versatility of both melee and ranged, but I just don't see much synergy between them tbh. It is certainly an interesting way to include a ranged option on a swashbuckler.

A build I've considered with a similar class split would take kensai's keen edge, swashbuckling, and run in divine crusader for celestial champion. Together these give Balizarde an 11-20x4 crit profile, which is insane. But this build would lack a ranged option and have poor saves, so I'm not too keen on this split.

What will your defenses (i.e. saves, dodge, hp, prr, self-healing, etc.) end up being on this build?

First, thx for contributions.

As you guessed, I've let fighter's feats out to put ranged feats in. I think it's worth, but I'll give alternatives to my feats selection: one with more defense and another in a S&B perspective.
I didn't put enhancements, because swashbuckling enh. are not yet implemented. In kensei, my plan is: 4 Cores (4 AP), WGS (2 AP), Extra action boosts (6 AP), Haste boost (3 AP), Agility 2 (4 AP), +1 Str (2 AP) = 21 AP.

I didn't test on Lama, but I'm pretty sure keen edge won't stack with swashbuckling, since these are both competence bonuses, but if they do, that opens new perspectives ! :)

11 for surge is indeed 8+3 as mentioned by XL_Jockey.

[CThruTheEgo]

I didn't test on Lama, but I'm pretty sure keen edge won't stack with swashbuckling, since these are both competence bonuses, but if they do, that opens new perspectives ! :)

They are both competence, but they affect different aspects of crit profile. Keen edge only affects crit range, whereas swashbuckler affects crit range and/or multiplier, depending on the weapon. With rapiers, keen edge provides +1 range and swashbuckler provides +1 multiplier, which gives Balizarde a 13-20x4 crit profile, or 11-20x4 with celestial champion from divine crusader.

[Feithlin]

They are both competence, but they affect different aspects of crit profile. Keen edge only affects crit range, whereas swashbuckler affects crit range and/or multiplier, depending on the weapon. With rapiers, keen edge provides +1 range and swashbuckler provides +1 multiplier, which gives Balizarde a 13-20x4 crit profile, or 11-20x4 with celestial champion from divine crusader.

Hum, interesting. Did you test it (or are aware of someone who did)? If so, I may have to change some things around.

[Feithlin]

If keen edge stacks with swashbuckling, the feats could look like this:

Option 1 - With furyshot option
Heroic feats: SWFx3, WF, WS, gWF, Emp. Healing, Extend (you may wish IC: ranged instead of this), PA, IC, Cleave, gCleave, WF: ranged, PBS, Bow strength.
Epic feats: OC, Rapid shot, Manyshot.
ED feats: pSWF, pTWF.

Option 2 - Without ranging feats
Heroic feats: SWFx3, WF, WS, gWF, Emp. Healing, Extend, PA, IC, Cleave, gCleave, Dodge, Maximize, Quicken.
Epic feats: OC and 2 more (maybe Toughness, eToughness if I can hit the 21 Con requirement).
ED feats: pSWF, pTWF.

[CThruTheEgo]

If keen edge stacks with swashbuckling, the feats could look like this:

Option 1 - With furyshot option
Heroic feats: SWFx3, WF, WS, gWF, Emp. Healing, Extend (you may wish IC: ranged instead of this), PA, IC, Cleave, gCleave, WF: ranged, PBS, Bow strength.
Epic feats: OC, Rapid shot, Manyshot.
ED feats: pSWF, pTWF.

Option 2 - Without ranging feats
Heroic feats: SWFx3, WF, WS, gWF, Emp. Healing, Extend, PA, IC, Cleave, gCleave, Dodge, Maximize, Quicken.
Epic feats: OC and 2 more (maybe Toughness, eToughness if I can hit the 21 Con requirement).
ED feats: pSWF, pTWF.

The build I'm considering looks pretty much like your second option but, instead of dodge, maximize, toughness, and epic toughness, takes greater weapon specialization, shield mastery, improved shield mastery, and improved shield bash to maximize defense and melee dps. Along with legendary shield mastery from dreadnaught, all of this provides 20 PRR, 15% doublestrike, and about 10 average damage per hit (from shield bash and greater weapon specialization).

[unbongwah]

They are both competence, but they affect different aspects of crit profile. Keen edge only affects crit range, whereas swashbuckler affects crit range and/or multiplier, depending on the weapon. With rapiers, keen edge provides +1 range and swashbuckler provides +1 multiplier, which gives Balizarde a 13-20x4 crit profile, or 11-20x4 with celestial champion from divine crusader.
Interesting: I hadn't thought of that. But the real question is: how does the DPS of a SWF Kensei / Swashbuckler compare to a TWF monk / kensei, both of whom are using Balizarde?

[CThruTheEgo]

Interesting: I hadn't thought of that. But the real question is: how does the DPS of a SWF Kensei / Swashbuckler compare to a TWF monk / kensei, both of whom are using Balizarde?

With 30% attack speed, 200% stat modifier applied to damage, and vorpal on a 19-20, I think it will definitely be a contender for dps. The problem is with the defenses of such a build. Taking bard means no monk for incorp and no paladin for saves. It can get a respectable PRR (90s), but saves are worthless.

[Grailhawk]

A build I've considered with a similar class split would take kensai's keen edge, swashbuckling, and run in divine crusader for celestial champion. Together these give Balizarde an 11-20x4 crit profile, which is insane. But this build would lack a ranged option and have poor saves, so I'm not too keen on this split.

Why take keen edge though Exploit weakness is if not better at least as good.

[BigErkyKid]

I think it would help if you ¨sold¨the build a bit more.

What do you gain from doing this split that you cannot get from a traditional monkpal?

How does the DPS; survivability and what not compare?

Is this a flavor build or a competitive build?

Thanks!

[CThruTheEgo]

Why take keen edge though Exploit weakness is if not better at least as good.

I've been debating this myself. I have heard that exploit weakness works with imp crit, so every non crit essentially means you gain 10% more crit chance on the next hit. If it stays like that, then it will add up quickly and it is arguably better than keen edge since it only takes one non crit to equal the benefit of keen edge and after that it starts to pull ahead. If it doesn't go live like that though, then they may more comparable, but even then it's still debatable.

[Feithlin]

I've added a first draft of enhancements.

[Feithlin]

I studied a bit more the S&B version, to take this into account:


In previous Lamannia builds, Swashbuckling acted like a Defensive stance in some ways but not others. Our current plan (which should appear in the next Lamannia build) is for Swashbuckling to not be considered a "Defensive" stance at all.

As an afterthought, building for S&B has many implications in the build, which basically makes it completely different. I may make a try at it if nobody comes with a proposition.

[CThruTheEgo]

I studied a bit more the S&B version, to take this into account:



As an afterthought, building for S&B has many implications in the build, which basically makes it completely different. I may make a try at it if nobody comes with a proposition.

I'll almost certainly be going with a S&B build, but I'm not going to bother posting anything until it goes live since it is all still subject to change, as Steelstar's comment shows.

But post away, there are plenty of build options. I like that there are some good discussions going.

[Arcanegrin]

easy displacement (which could come from GS clickies) Why wouldn't you be using the spell Displacement you get from your 7th bard level? Is there another relevant reason to take 7 bard levels?

Nice enough looking build, I made something very similar on lammania, it works well enough, but you really miss evasion.

[Feithlin]

Why wouldn't you be using the spell Displacement you get from your 7th bard level? Is there another relevant reason to take 7 bard levels?

Nice enough looking build, I made something very similar on lammania, it works well enough, but you really miss evasion.

I plan on using the spell. I just wanted to say that it's not such a big benefit, as most epic characters already have many clickies of this spell.

The loss of evasion is indeed annoying. I hope the ref save will be high enough to guarantee half damage most of the time.

[Rull]

Hum, interesting. Did you test it (or are aware of someone who did)? If so, I may have to change some things around.

I can confirm this.

Rapier + swash = 18/x3
Rapier + swash + KE = 17/x3
whereas
dagger + swash = 18/x3
dagger + swash + KE = 18/x3

[Feithlin]

I can confirm this.

Rapier + swash = 18/x3
Rapier + swash + KE = 17/x3
whereas
dagger + swash = 18/x3
dagger + swash + KE = 18/x3

Thanks for testing. I'll now have to decide whether I go kensei or swash for tier 5. I'll probably stay with the second because exploit weaknesses isn't very far behind in terms of dps, and tier 5 SB has some other goodies and doesn't require the 3 necessary feats for keen edge.

[Amideus]

I see you take IC:P and the basis for this is you mainly want to use Balizarde. However Balizarde already has Keen, and therefor does not benefit from the IC:P feat, which would open up the option to take IP:S instead and have a wider range of weapons. Balizarde would be the keen pierce and you could then use other slashing weapons as well. On the other hand you can use shortswords with IC:P.

[Feithlin]

I see you take IC:P and the basis for this is you mainly want to use Balizarde. However Balizarde already has Keen, and therefor does not benefit from the IC:P feat, which would open up the option to take IP:S instead and have a wider range of weapons. Balizarde would be the keen pierce and you could then use other slashing weapons as well. On the other hand you can use shortswords with IC:P.

Indeed. I was also thinking about thunderforged, but I don't have it yet so I didn't mention it. Skullsmasher (bludgeon) is a good weapon for a swashbuckler and it's very affordable to buy if you don't have balizarde (I bought an eE version for 10k pp), but that's probably the only bludgeon weapon really worth using. Piercing opens more options: shortswords as you mention, but also daggers, like Sacrificial dagger (very good weapon at its level), or Blade of the high priestess to mention only very easy weapons to obtain.

[Amideus]

Indeed. I was also thinking about thunderforged, but I don't have it yet so I didn't mention it. Skullsmasher (bludgeon) is a good weapon for a swashbuckler and it's very affordable to buy if you don't have balizarde (I bought an eE version for 10k pp), but that's probably the only bludgeon weapon really worth using. Piercing opens more options: shortswords as you mention, but also daggers, like Sacrificial dagger (very good weapon at its level), or Blade of the high priestess to mention only very easy weapons to obtain.

I guess the main reason I mentioned Slashing was because I'm currently running a handaxe build, the dwarven defender that is con based. I used shortswords all the way until I hit 16, mainly because all my shortswords I had were keen. I guess it would really depend on the weapons you wanted to use. Such as if you had Celestia or some other strong piercing weapon you wanted to use that wasn't keen.