Cetus: The Supreme Bladeforged Fighter

[Nodoze]

In theory, with the frostbite blades swapped in, you'd probably dish out marginally better damage - and its marginal only because you have to make up for the rather substantial DPS loss by removing the ESOS briefly, and paying the opportunity cost of having to use smite asap. I don't like that you need to interrupt your more effective attacks (i.e., fists of iron, momentum swing, earth attacks) to keep refreshing the vulnerable stacks with the smite.

In practice, its a nightmare to micromanage your character like that - and for my purposes, someone in party will always contribute a vulnerable stack to bosses that matter. Its not worth losing all the pally perks imo.Press Z on your next Raid Boss or long boss fight on hard EE quest and confirm your assumption. If you lock the Examine window it should not disappear if you switch targets or use any gear during the fight...

I did that on a FoT raid this Tuesday and I was the only one providing Vulnerable stacks to the Boss giving the entire RAID +20% damage (I was using the DeBuffer (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435693-Build-The-DeBuffer-Maximizes-EE-Team-Boss-DPS-amp-AoE-Heals-%281st-life-grind-friendly%29) build & also Rebuking it for an additional +25% physical damage giving everyone upto +45% physical damage + other debuffs).

Also, confirm your attack rotation as 15 seconds is a long time and I suspect you can fit 1 smite every 15 seconds without losing a better attack as Smite is better than a regular swing and gives all your other attacks an average +18%...

17 seconds to build up is not a big loss compared to +18% over the rest of a long fight.... The swap is nothing compared to the complexity you have accomplished with your swap_to_scroll_&_triple-pos_stick+then_scoll+then_switch_back sequence you have mastered on your human version... You will roll a one once every 20 Smites which is one per every 5 minutes and the weapon swap to get back to 20 would only be about 5 seconds each time you roll a 1. That would be ~ on average:

- 5 minute fight: 23 seconds and 2 full-swaps (assume 4 seconds) for ~4:33 seconds of +18% damage;
- 10 minute fight: 28 seconds and 3 full-swaps (assume 6 seconds) for ~9:26 seconds of +18% damage;

During those build-ups you are not doing 0 damage but even if you were I think you would be significantly ahead (~7% in a 5 min fight & ~11% in a 10 min fight even if you did 0 damage in the build ups).

[Cetus]

Press Z on your next Raid Boss or long boss fight on hard EE quest and confirm your assumption. If you lock the Examine window it should not disappear if you switch targets or use any gear during the fight...

This is not an assumption, I know who I run with

I did that on a FoT raid this Tuesday and I was the only one providing Vulnerable stacks to the Boss giving the entire RAID +20% damage (I was using the DeBuffer (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435693-Build-The-DeBuffer-Maximizes-EE-Team-Boss-DPS-amp-AoE-Heals-%281st-life-grind-friendly%29) build & also Rebuking it for an additional +25% physical damage giving everyone upto +45% physical damage + other debuffs).

Also, confirm your attack rotation as 15 seconds is a long time and I suspect you can fit 1 smite every 15 seconds without losing a better attack as Smite is better than a regular swing and gives all your other attacks an average +18%... Fists of iron refreshes every 3 seconds...within those three seconds cleaves and momentum swings are used - all of which are FAR better than the crappy smite attack - no point in even trying to sell it as an attack on its own, its only use is to charge vulnerable stacks

17 seconds to build up is not a big loss compared to +18% over the rest of a long fight.... The swap is nothing compared to the complexity you have accomplished with your swap_to_scroll_&_triple-pos_stick+then_scoll+then_switch_back sequence you have mastered on your human version... Yes, you are correct - that is also why I gravitated away from it when bladeforged came out, it was definitely annoying to heal scroll like that but had no choice You will roll a one once every 20 Smites which is one per every 5 minutes and the weapon swap to get back to 20 would only be about 5 seconds each time you roll a 1. That would be ~ on average:

- 5 minute fight: 23 seconds and 2 full-swaps (assume 4 seconds) for ~4:33 seconds of +18% damage;
- 10 minute fight: 28 seconds and 3 full-swaps (assume 6 seconds) for ~9:26 seconds of +18% damage;

During those build-ups you are not doing 0 damage but even if you were I think you would be significantly ahead (~7% in a 5 min fight & ~11% in a 10 min fight even if you did 0 damage in the build ups).

Some comments in red

Again, in theory I agreed with you that it would do better damage. In practice however, it simply won't because

a) losing the pally saves will hurt your survival
b) Esos swapping is going to be a difficult damage loss to compensate for - especially since you are using TWF without any TWF feats
c) your 17 seconds are both theoretical AND an average (I haven't seen any evidence for this figure by the way nor the circumstances under which you tested it)
d) Micromanagement has an opportunity cost, including inevitable loss of cleaves/fists/momentum swings as you are in the middle of the action
e) In my case, I usually have an archer or sorc who stacks up the vulnerable anyway and
f) There will be a wyrm wrought crafting weapon that will allow vulnerable stacking as well.

Given those reasons against it, I cannot recommend the 2 cleric splash.

[Cetus]

Press Z on your next Raid Boss or long boss fight on hard EE quest and confirm your assumption. If you lock the Examine window it should not disappear if you switch targets or use any gear during the fight...

This is not an assumption, I know who I run with

I did that on a FoT raid this Tuesday and I was the only one providing Vulnerable stacks to the Boss giving the entire RAID +20% damage (I was using the DeBuffer (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/435693-Build-The-DeBuffer-Maximizes-EE-Team-Boss-DPS-amp-AoE-Heals-%281st-life-grind-friendly%29) build & also Rebuking it for an additional +25% physical damage giving everyone upto +45% physical damage + other debuffs). rebuke is irrelevant information here, since we're talking about vulnerable

Also, confirm your attack rotation as 15 seconds is a long time and I suspect you can fit 1 smite every 15 seconds without losing a better attack as Smite is better than a regular swing and gives all your other attacks an average +18%... Fists of iron refreshes every 3 seconds...within those three seconds cleaves and momentum swings are used - all of which are FAR better than the crappy smite attack - no point in even trying to sell it as an attack on its own, its only use is to charge vulnerable stacks

17 seconds to build up is not a big loss compared to +18% over the rest of a long fight.... The swap is nothing compared to the complexity you have accomplished with your swap_to_scroll_&_triple-pos_stick+then_scoll+then_switch_back sequence you have mastered on your human version... Yes, you are correct - that is also why I gravitated away from it when bladeforged came out, it was definitely annoying to heal scroll like that but had no choice You will roll a one once every 20 Smites which is one per every 5 minutes and the weapon swap to get back to 20 would only be about 5 seconds each time you roll a 1. That would be ~ on average:

- 5 minute fight: 23 seconds and 2 full-swaps (assume 4 seconds) for ~4:33 seconds of +18% damage;
- 10 minute fight: 28 seconds and 3 full-swaps (assume 6 seconds) for ~9:26 seconds of +18% damage;

During those build-ups you are not doing 0 damage but even if you were I think you would be significantly ahead (~7% in a 5 min fight & ~11% in a 10 min fight even if you did 0 damage in the build ups).

Some comments in red

Again, in theory I agreed with you that it would do better damage. In practice however, it simply won't because

a) losing the pally saves will hurt your survival
b) Esos swapping is going to be a difficult damage loss to compensate for - especially since you are using TWF without any TWF feats
c) your 17 seconds are both theoretical AND an average (I haven't seen any evidence for this figure by the way nor the circumstances under which you tested it)
d) Micromanagement has an opportunity cost, including inevitable loss of cleaves/fists/momentum swings as you are in the middle of the action
e) In my case, I usually have an archer or sorc who stacks up the vulnerable anyway and
f) There will be a wyrm wrought crafting weapon that will allow vulnerable stacking as well.

Given those reasons against it, I cannot recommend the 2 cleric splash.

[Nodoze]

Ultimately, IIRC, this was originally your hunch/idea and I believe your original intuition was right that the overall DPS is higher. Testing on Lamina without the same combo I mentioned is not the same. And testing on Lamina is not the same as testing on live (my testing has been on live).

Some additional things you may have said previously (or others in these threads and other threads may have said) that also help convince me you were likely originally right:



I was actually thinking a FvS-2 splash instead of Cleric-2 splash for the better saves and more SP.



DPS-wise Divine Might is no longer tied to turns but instead SP (which could be good or bad depending on the players resources). With the right gear/sp-pots the WarPriest Variant can essentially be endless while the turn based upon simply cannot so the WarPriest variant would win in an endurance DPS scenario.



DPS-wise the change also permanently frees up for another offensive twist that could further contribute to DPS whether you plan to shrine in a quest or not (not sure how to estimate that % increase nor what scenarios it fits overall).



The 7 AP spent in WarPriest are arguably better than the 7 AP in KotC.

My comments to your comments are in red.

...
Again, in theory I agreed with you that it would do better damage. In practice however, it simply won't because

a) losing the pally saves will hurt your survival
IIRC your original gut was that with the BF immunities and still decent saves the build would be fine if the DPS increase was worth it. You are the better judge than I am of that and if you were originally wrong then I agree this would not be advisable. I likely have less play time overall than you and for sure by far less EE experience as am more of a planner/strategist/researcher than a fighter and typically 6 box alone when not with one or more of my 5 kids (I try to keep all 6 in the party together level wise even if a kid is not on).

b) Esos swapping is going to be a difficult damage loss to compensate for - especially since you are using TWF without any TWF feats
Overtime in long boss fights it should be better by at least 10-15% overall though. Otherwise you can just not do it and the build should play the same. Also, not everyone who plays this build has an eSoS. My BF is only 26 and I will not likely ever grind for an eSoS. Multiple people play TWF versions of this build and I personally like TWF so I may LR mine from THF to TWF as well. The good thing for you is that your version is slashing using heavy blades so your swap would be seamless from a centering standpoint. Mine is currently using a Great Axe for Cleaver so the swap would be more painful for me in my current incarnation.

c) your 17 seconds are both theoretical AND an average (I haven't seen any evidence for this figure by the way nor the circumstances under which you tested it)
Actually the 17 seconds is best case but the numbers are not theoretical nor will a few seconds significantly change the increase. I will go back through my notes but from memory in multiple attempts on the practice dummy the range was 17-21 with an average of 19 seconds. Both times I did it on TO on FoT it was within seconds of my second smite so 19 secs was consistent in an actual Raid with my multiple hours of testing on the dummy. In my testing I have to mouse click on my PC stopwatch before starting so those timings are accurate and on the higher side.

d) Micromanagement has an opportunity cost, including inevitable loss of cleaves/fists/momentum swings as you are in the middle of the action
You have more experience then me. When we were fighting the TO there was no other MOBs around so only single target DPS mattered when this would be employed. The smite is an attack with +2W so it isn't totally pidly and only once every 15 seconds for a net +15% may be indeed worth it. I would try to actually test it on live to be sure before dismissing it. Even if it doesn't work for you it may be great for others.

e) In my case, I usually have an archer or sorc who stacks up the vulnerable anyway and
Not when solo. Neither can do it faster in testing (I tested all the options). Based on testing I have doubts that an AA can do it at all though I think a Monkcher can (my Moncher could almost get to 20 stacks but then they faded quickly). An Air Savant may not be able to do it at all on the TO if the TO is indeed immune to electricity and even if he could get TO 20% Vulnerable his personal DPS would be very low...

f) There will be a wyrm wrought crafting weapon that will allow vulnerable stacking as well.
When/if this makes it live then I will try to test them and let you know thoughts and how that changes things if any.

Given those reasons against it, I cannot recommend the 2 cleric splash.
2 FvS splay may be better

In the end no one will know unless they try it on live. I also thought that there would be more leverage of vulnerable but so far I haven't seen it fully leveraged yet. I have been doing examine on boss fights from 20-25 and was expecting to see it already leveraged and my efforts in vain but haven't seen much and when used it wasn't getting maxed. I also assumed that an AA let alone a Monkcher would more easily get to full 20 stacks and sustain them better over time but even with the Monkcher that didn't bear out even in controlled/optimal circumstances. If you actually examine closely you may be surprised (I was).

Anyway. Thanks for the build as it shines either way. In the end this is certainly not about me and even though it is your original build it even isn't all about you either as this is a forum and many people are using the build and there are likely multiple variants and others may find this testing useful.

At this point I am still sticking with the original Cetus gut instinct and still think your were originally right & try for most DPS (unless indeed this change makes the build a regular soul stone). While working on my other builds I will try to carve out some time to get my BF to cap & geared and prove you were right.

Either way you win as you were either right to begin with or are right now (or both are right depending on content/playstyle/goals/gear/team-makeup).

[Cetus]

Ultimately, IIRC, this was originally your hunch/idea and I believe your original intuition was right that the overall DPS is higher. Testing on Lamina without the same combo I mentioned is not the same. And testing on Lamina is not the same as testing on live (my testing has been on live).

Some additional things you may have said previously (or others in these threads and other threads may have said) that also help convince me you were likely originally right:



I was actually thinking a FvS-2 splash instead of Cleric-2 splash for the better saves and more SP.



DPS-wise Divine Might is no longer tied to turns but instead SP (which could be good or bad depending on the players resources). With the right gear/sp-pots the WarPriest Variant can essentially be endless while the turn based upon simply cannot so the WarPriest variant would win in an endurance DPS scenario.



DPS-wise the change also permanently frees up for another offensive twist that could further contribute to DPS whether you plan to shrine in a quest or not (not sure how to estimate that % increase nor what scenarios it fits overall).



The 7 AP spent in WarPriest are arguably better than the 7 AP in KotC.

My comments to your comments are in red.


In the end no one will know unless they try it on live. I also thought that there would be more leverage of vulnerable but so far I haven't seen it fully leveraged yet. I have been doing examine on boss fights from 20-25 and was expecting to see it already leveraged and my efforts in vain but haven't seen much and when used it wasn't getting maxed. I also assumed that an AA let alone a Monkcher would more easily get to full 20 stacks and sustain them better over time but even with the Monkcher that didn't bear out even in controlled/optimal circumstances. If you actually examine closely you may be surprised (I was).

Anyway. Thanks for the build as it shines either way. In the end this is certainly not about me and even though it is your original build it even isn't all about you either as this is a forum and many people are using the build and there are likely multiple variants and others may find this testing useful.

At this point I am still sticking with the original Cetus gut instinct and still think your were originally right & try for most DPS (unless indeed this change makes the build a regular soul stone). While working on my other builds I will try to carve out some time to get my BF to cap & geared and prove you were right.

Either way you win as you were either right to begin with or are right now (or both are right depending on content/playstyle/goals/gear/team-makeup).

Heh, well we're really discussing incredibly subtle differences - either build will work amazing. I just can't justify using the vulnerable thing with so many other sources out there, i'd rather jump into groups of mobs and cleave them away knowing that I have the saves to back up my aggressive playstyle.

I am however...currently tinkering with 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 pally/fvs - stay tuned for an updated perspective =D

[Cetus]

Hey cetus, mind sharing a video? I'm sure you had already posted it but I got lost on post pages.

How much your recon hits you for?

Nice work btw, looks solid and less clikies intensive compared with old one.

Thanks!

I'll be working on a few shortly - knocking out the last of my epic completionist / triple bladeforged + PDK past lives

[Nodoze]

Heh, well we're really discussing incredibly subtle differences - either build will work amazing. I just can't justify using the vulnerable thing with so many other sources out there, i'd rather jump into groups of mobs and cleave them away knowing that I have the saves to back up my aggressive playstyle.

I am however...currently tinkering with 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 pally/fvs - stay tuned for an updated perspective =DFair enough. Look forward to seeing the results of your tinkering. Thanks again for the great builds and I really enjoy playing it though sadly I may have to admit that I actually enjoy reading/thinking about it & the mechanics & dynamics of party/raid interaction just as much as actually playing it.

[Cetus]

Fair enough. Look forward to seeing the results of your tinkering. Thanks again for the great builds and I really enjoy playing it though sadly I may have to admit that I actually enjoy reading/thinking about it & the mechanics & dynamics of party/raid interaction just as much as actually playing it.

Well, nevermind - I need like a 100 action points to make that ranger build work, heh. No way its gonna come close to the monk version.

[Nodoze]

Well, nevermind - I need like a 100 action points to make that ranger build work, heh. No way its gonna come close to the monk version.Understood. I had multiple build ideas that I tried with Ranger as I like the TWF and the free feats and being able to dump dex but also kept running into AP issues. In most cases I either ended up going fighter and picking the feats up manually or focusing on melee or ranged on other paths. Sad because I like Rangers thematically/historically.

[Nightmanis]

Well, nevermind - I need like a 100 action points to make that ranger build work, heh. No way its gonna come close to the monk version.

Wait, were you planning a dual wield build or something??

[Cetus]

Wait, were you planning a dual wield build or something??

Thought about it

[kierg10]

Thought about it

but you can't duel wield eSOS's D:

[Cetus]

but you can't duel wield eSOS's D:

Thunder-forged falchion is where its at for now

I'll be redoing the gear layout soon - still acquiring the items the hard way... (EN and EH just aren't fun)

[unbongwah]

Why falchion rather than greataxe?

[PsychoJester]

Why falchion rather than greataxe?

Crit chances, i was thinking at falchion too.
Or scimmies for the dual wielding.

[painkiller3]

Thunder-forged falchion is where its at for now

I'll be redoing the gear layout soon - still acquiring the items the hard way... (EN and EH just aren't fun)

Looking forward to new gear layout...what are you using on tier 3 on your falchion?

[Nodoze]

Crit chances, i was thinking at falchion too.
Or scimmies for the dual wielding.For TWF wouldn't the new Khopesh's be better than Scimitars?

For THF, how close are the new Falchions vs. the new Great Axes with Headman's chop?

[Choopak]

For TWF wouldn't the new Khopesh's be better than Scimitars?

For THF, how close are the new Falchions vs. the new Great Axes with Headman's chop?

On my server, i saw a couple GAxes, but no falchions... so might be an indication...
They look freaking good dho...

[Drwaz99]

They look freaking good dho...

Matte black versions of the Hellstroke GA..so kinda rehashed but it certainly could be worse.

[Drwaz99]

Why falchion rather than greataxe?

As a couple people posted earlier:

They are slightly less damage than Greatswords's (F 2d4; BDR:30.48 vs GS 2d6; BDR:36.85) but on this build with TF weapons a Falcion will crit on a range of 13-20 while the GS will on do 17-20. both are x2. So the crits will be smaller in number, they will be much more often.

[Wipey]

Falchion kensei with IC crits on 13 mate.

[Eth]

Falchion kensei with IC crits on 13 mate.

...and you gt 299 average extra damage on every crit (69 bleeding + 230 fire). That damage doesn't scale while blitzing though.

Has anyone run the numbers of GA vs Falchion in full blitz-mode?

[Drwaz99]

Falchion kensei with IC crits on 13 mate.

Yep mistype. Fixed.

Of note for the newer people: The weapon display on the inventory doesn't work correctly and shows 15-20 for falchions not the 13-20

[molyincide]

Gear:

Necklace: EE Stolen Necklace w/ Insightful +2 Charisma Slotted, Charisma +10, and Accuracy +9 (This is useful for manyshotting, sometimes the bow grazes)
Helmet:: EE Black Dragon Helmet w/ +3 Insightful Constitution Yellow Slot: Globe of True Imperial Blood Green Slot: Good Luck +2
Goggles: Deadly X of Resistance +10
Armor: Flawless Black Dragonscale Docent: Slotted PRR +16 Epic Bladesmark Docent is also a powerful supplement
Bracer: Skirmisher's Bracers: Dexterity +9 and Doublestrike +8%
Ring 1: EE Consuming Darkness: Constitution +8, Combat Mastery +5, Seeker +12
Ring 2: Seal of Dun'Robar: Stunning +10
Boots: EE Goatskin Boots w/ Fortification +115, Yellow Slot: +2 insightful Dexterity, Green Slot: Wisdom +7
Gloves: EE Backstabber's Gloves: Sneak Attack +5, Exceptional Sneak attack +3, Improved Deception, Bluff +20, Yellow Slot: +250 Spell Points
Belt: Ogre Power +10 Belt of False life 45
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf: Exceptional Seeker +5, Attack bonus +4
Trinket: Litany of the Dead

Weapon: Epic Sword of Shadows: Red Slot: Repair Spellpower + 138 Augment, Colorless: Insightful +2 Wisdom

Still Looking to get:

Deadly XI of Resistance 10 Goggles
Ogre Power 11 of False Life 50 Belt



Hey Cetus, with the new raid loot available, do the following gear swaps look like something you would agree upon?

Swap belt for: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battlerager%27s_Harness green slot: (DEX +8)

Swap bracers for: Ogre power of False life

Swap Black Dragon Helm +3 CON for : Dragon Masque which gives

Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus +6 Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus
Deception
Deadly XI
Shadow Spike: On Damage: Do an additional 2d6 Negative Energy damage
Yellow Augment Slot (+2 Insightful CON)
Colorless Augment Slot (Free slot now)

Globe moves to Consuming Darkness

Assuming use of falchion, you'll have fort bypass on it which I don't believe stacks with black dragonscale, meaning you can swap it for shadowscale. Slot that with PRR/Good luck.

Since shadowscale means more fort, you can switch your boots to a +8 CON version, and free up consuming darkness slot.

From there you would have the option to select whatever goggles you want (but you'll still need resistance somewhere), and choose between shadow disciple and shadow stalker.

All of the moves in terms of raid loot makes sense, but from there it kind of splits off into a bunch of different paths which are all pretty decent.

Thoughts?

[Cetus]

Hey Cetus, with the new raid loot available, do the following gear swaps look like something you would agree upon?

Swap belt for: http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Battlerager%27s_Harness green slot: (DEX +8)

Swap bracers for: Ogre power of False life

Swap Black Dragon Helm +3 CON for : Dragon Masque which gives

Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus +6 Insightful Sneak Attack Bonus
Deception
Deadly XI
Shadow Spike: On Damage: Do an additional 2d6 Negative Energy damage
Yellow Augment Slot (+2 Insightful CON)
Colorless Augment Slot (Free slot now)

Globe moves to Consuming Darkness

Assuming use of falchion, you'll have fort bypass on it which I don't believe stacks with black dragonscale, meaning you can swap it for shadowscale. Slot that with PRR/Good luck.

Since shadowscale means more fort, you can switch your boots to a +8 CON version, and free up consuming darkness slot.

From there you would have the option to select whatever goggles you want (but you'll still need resistance somewhere), and choose between shadow disciple and shadow stalker.

All of the moves in terms of raid loot makes sense, but from there it kind of splits off into a bunch of different paths which are all pretty decent.

Thoughts?

That's not a bad set up - but what I have in mind will generate more dps - I'll share a few thoughts now, although I haven't conclusively decided upon this yet:

Keep Blackscale set - 3% doublestrike isn't available on shadowscale, 5% damage from relentless fury

Get New belt, slot it with false life probably

Get new bracers

------------At this point, doublestrike has been upgraded from 9% to 12% (I get hit plenty of times in this new content to pretty much guarantee it, but i haven't used it in practice yet)
------------Bracers upgrade my 9 dex to 11 dex, give me 30PRR (which liberates an augment), and gives 45 resists across the board

Issue: I lose Strength 10

Either:

a) Live with -2 Str

b) Give up the new bracers, and go with something more like you said, an ogre set of bracers

Choice B is the higher DPS option - but I haven't decided yet, the 30 PRR, resists, and extra dex are attractive

I've been grazing occasionally with my manyshot, so I need to make some to-hit adjustments there, the extra dex will help

[Cetus]

Updated OP with an EE Devil's Assault solo, which was motivated by haeks 25 minute or under challenge in his zeus thread.

[lyrecono]

fort bypass of different numbers have always stacked, take the black scale and WW fort bypass falchion into the orchard, its a masacere.
The reason you dont do as many crits in the new content is due to the higher fort in there (the undead seem to have 100+ fort)

if weilding 2 weapons, wat would you put up there cetus?

[Cetus]

fort bypass of different numbers have always stacked, take the black scale and WW fort bypass falchion into the orchard, its a masacere.
The reason you dont do as many crits in the new content is due to the higher fort in there (the undead seem to have 100+ fort)

if weilding 2 weapons, wat would you put up there cetus?

I remain skeptical about the claim that fort from black + ww stack.

[unbongwah]

I remain skeptical about the claim that fort from black + ww stack.
That's what the wiki claims is how armor-piercing (http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor-Piercing) works; not sure how you'd go about verifying that, though. Run some tests on the training dummy, I guess.

[Choopak]

Sooooooo Falchion or Great axe? for thunder forged weapon?
Falchion have a better crit range, G-Axe have headsmanchop :)
But who's optimal?

[lyrecono]

i noticed a large increase whille weilding the armor pen ww weapon (next to the black scale docent), whille fighting old content undead.
Not so much (but still noticeble) in the newer content.
i wouldn't use armor pen with 2hf, but for 2wf, it might be worth it

[Cetus]

i noticed a large increase whille weilding the armor pen ww weapon (next to the black scale docent), whille fighting old content undead.
Not so much (but still noticeble) in the newer content.
i wouldn't use armor pen with 2hf, but for 2wf, it might be worth it

You wouldn't use 35% bypass on a TH weapon? Bad choice...


Fully upgraded mournlode docent + 35% armor piercing + grim precision = 70% fort bypass

[Nightmanis]

You wouldn't use 35% bypass on a TH weapon? Bad choice...


Fully upgraded mournlode docent + 35% armor piercing + grim precision = 70% fort bypass

Oh God I forgot about those armours.

Might have to make the fullplate. The healer's bounty could be interesting with all the archers.

[lyrecono]

You wouldn't use 35% bypass on a TH weapon? Bad choice...


Fully upgraded mournlode docent + 35% armor piercing + grim precision = 70% fort bypass

maybe as a second th weapon, just not my first choice, btw, why mournlode over blackscale (also 20 %)?

grim precision is a bit steep, 1 more life to open up the 4th twist slot, i might consider it then (tier 2, next to sence weakness, is pretty high on this build though)

[redspecter23]

maybe as a second th weapon, just not my first choice, btw, why mournlode over blackscale (also 20 %)?

grim precision is a bit steep, 1 more life to open up the 4th twist slot, i might consider it then (tier 2, next to sence weakness, is pretty high on this build though)

The setup he has described there is an amazing metagame choice against undead. 35% bypass on the weapon won't stack with blackscale, but it will stack with Mournlode Docent, creating the amazing 70% bypass against undead. This is miles ahead of Black Scale + Grim Precision only. With the amount of undead in the new content, this 3 piece combination is hard to ignore. Against undead, I'll take grim precision over sense weakness nearly every time if I have to choose. For situations where undead aren't as numerous, swap back into Black Scale (or shadow armor for those using that) and get sense weakness back in there.

[redspecter23]

Oh God I forgot about those armours.

Might have to make the fullplate. The healer's bounty could be interesting with all the archers.

Keep in mind that the weaken undead ability (-20% fort) only comes on the chain shirt and docent versions. Healers bounty is a great ability, but it comes at the expense of weaken undead.

[Nightmanis]

Keep in mind that the weaken undead ability (-20% fort) only comes on the chain shirt and docent versions. Healers bounty is a great ability, but it comes at the expense of weaken undead.

This poses a massive problem as I'm not making night a toaster, and the chain shirt has (according to the wiki) a horrid mdb making it really just a terrible choice when blitzing.

Plus I said the heavy plate because I wanted to see how the high rate of hits in the new stuff would proc healers bounty. Most likely not as much as I would hope but still worth a look.

[Cetus]

Updated videos in OP with two EDA solos. One is with SOS in mostly earth stance, second is thunderforged falchion and wind dance. Dropping the two crit multiplier really makes my crits look wimpy, but the completion time was much faster.

[molyincide]

That's what the wiki claims is how armor-piercing (http://ddowiki.com/page/Armor-Piercing) works; not sure how you'd go about verifying that, though. Run some tests on the training dummy, I guess.

Easiest way to test is to get 100% or more fort bypass and see if every hit gives sneak attack on the training dummy. My guildie has done this and informed me that they do not stack iirc

[Lurzifer]

Updated videos in OP with two EDA solos. One is with SOS in mostly earth stance, second is thunderforged falchion and wind dance. Dropping the two crit multiplier really makes my crits look wimpy, but the completion time was much faster.What? Lower Crits and more Doublestrike get the job faster done? Maybe add 15% attack speed, even more doublestrike and way more sneak attacks in as well, and see what happens lol :P

[Takllin]

What? Lower Crits and more Doublestrike get the job faster done? Maybe add 15% attack speed, even more doublestrike and way more sneak attacks in as well, and see what happens lol :P

Mortal Fear

[Cetus]

What? Lower Crits and more Doublestrike get the job faster done? Maybe add 15% attack speed, even more doublestrike and way more sneak attacks in as well, and see what happens lol :P

Well, don't ignore the movement speed you gain by staying out of earth stance. Less to do with doublestrike, more to do with getting to the trogs poking me off the sides faster.

And the other multiplier loss was in exchange for a ton of extra on-hit effects of a thunder forge weapon. No doublestrike there either.

[Eth]

Mortal Fear

Is this really relevant in EDA? Stuff dies in a few swings anyway and the bosses are red names.
(The on hit force damage helps of course, but I guess you mean the 5% hitpoint cutter)

[Cetus]

Is this really relevant in EDA? Stuff dies in a few swings anyway and the bosses are red names.
(The on hit force damage helps of course, but I guess you mean the 5% hitpoint cutter)

Yea, I agree. I didn't use mortal fear in EDA.

[plukje]

Cetus: Completionist Bladeforged 12 Fighter/6 Monk/2 Paladin

Note: This build is designed for advanced players who desire effectiveness in epic elite content. It is also centered around +5 tomes for the purposes of meeting stat requirements.


Class Progression: First, Second, and Sixth monk levels are the only important ones, since they receive feats at those levels.

Starting Stats: Strength: 18, Dexterity: 12, Constitution: 14, Intelligence: 8, Wisdom: 8, Charisma: 15

Feats

12 Fighter = 7 Feats. Bladeforged = 7 feats. 6 Monk = 3 Feats. Epic feats = 3 Feats. 7 + 7 + 3 + 3 = 20 Feats.

Add 2 Destiny feats + Paladin Deity + Monk light/dark path = 24 total feat decisions.

Ranged:

1. Improved Critical: Ranged
2. Weapon Focus: Ranged
3. Bow Strength
4. Manyshot (much later when +5 Dex tome kicks in)
5. Point Blank Shot
6. Rapid Shot
7. Zen Archery (should be taken as level 6 monk class feat when +5 Wisdom kicks in at level 19 for the 13 wisdom requirement)

Melee:

8. Power Attack (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk class feat)
9. Two Handed Fighting (Should be taken as Level 1 or 2 Monk Class feat)
10. Improved Two Handed Fighting
11. Stunning Blow
12. Weapon focus: Slashing
13. Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing
14. Weapon Specialization: Slashing
15. Improved Critical: Slashing
16. Cleave
17. Great Cleave
18. Overwhelming Critical


Other:

19. Completionist
20. Master of Forms (Adept is granted at level 6 monk, so this will occupy an epic feat slot)
21. Paladin: Follower of the Lord of Blades
22. Monk: Light Path
23. Level 26: Perfect Two handed fighting
24. Level 28: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting - 5% doublestrike for main hand weapon

Skills: All Levelup skills into maxing out UMD and Repair (leftovers into whatever you want, perhaps balance).

Twists:

Bane Of Undeath (if you plan to shrine, if not then pin)
Dance of Flowers
Sense Weakness / Pin

Enhancements:

Kensei:

-All Cores for Power Surge
-Extra Action boost 3
-Haste Boost 3
-One with the blade (this means all weapon specializations, alacrity, tier 1 meditation, deadly whatever (this ability is not used in this build), and shattering whatever (this ability is also not used in this build)).
-Tactics 2
-Strength 1 + 2

35 AP

Ninja Spy:

-All cores toward Shadow Veil
-Two tiers of Sneak Attack Training
-Acrobatic 2
-Agility 2
-Fists of Iron
-Ninja Poison

15 AP

Bladeforged:

-Improved Fortification Core
-Constitution Core
-Mechanist Tier 1
-Communion of Scribing 3
-Warforged Tactics +3
-Fearsome Presence
-Improved Power Attack 3
-Power of The Forge
-Weapon Attachment*

23 AP

*: This enhancement's usefulness is debatable. I use it for 33% of the time, since casting a tensers scroll is more useful than the attachment - the dps is about the same from the +4 str, but it also adds other bonuses. So, tensers > weapon attachment. However, during the minute and change that tensers is active, I use both of them together, then refresh the attachment in the remaining 1 minute and 50 seconds or something. If you don't like this enhancement, then drop 1 point of agility from the monk tree and use the 2 points on the third tier of sneak attack training from ninja spy OR the third tactics point from fighter - whatever you like. I might still do this, haven't decided on weapon attachment fully yet.

Knight of the Chalice

-First Core
-Extra turning 3
-Extra smite 1 (dump point)
-Divine Might 1**

7 AP

**: Everytime I use my power surge, damage boost, haste boost, I automatically hit divine might. When I had the second tier version of it, I ended up hitting it like every thirty seconds anyway just as part of the boost rotation. So, tier 2 is not needed - but I have a razr naga mouse that accommodates efficient boosting, if you don't then this decision maybe problematic - it works very well for me however.

Gear:

Necklace: EE Stolen Necklace w/ Insightful +2 Charisma Slotted, Charisma +10, and Accuracy +9 (This is useful for manyshotting, sometimes the bow grazes)
Helmet:: EE Black Dragon Helmet w/ +3 Insightful Constitution Yellow Slot: Globe of True Imperial Blood Green Slot: Good Luck +2
Goggles: Deadly X of Resistance +10
Armor: Flawless Black Dragonscale Docent: Slotted PRR +16 Epic Bladesmark Docent is also a powerful supplement
Bracer: Skirmisher's Bracers: Dexterity +9 and Doublestrike +8%
Ring 1: EE Consuming Darkness: Constitution +8, Combat Mastery +5, Seeker +12
Ring 2: Seal of Dun'Robar: Stunning +10
Boots: EE Goatskin Boots w/ Fortification +115, Yellow Slot: +2 insightful Dexterity, Green Slot: Wisdom +7
Gloves: EE Backstabber's Gloves: Sneak Attack +5, Exceptional Sneak attack +3, Improved Deception, Bluff +20, Yellow Slot: +250 Spell Points
Belt: Ogre Power +10 Belt of False life 45
Cloak: Adamantine Cloak of the Wolf: Exceptional Seeker +5, Attack bonus +4
Trinket: Litany of the Dead

Weapon: Epic Sword of Shadows: Red Slot: Repair Spellpower + 138 Augment, Colorless: Insightful +2 Wisdom

Still Looking to get:

Deadly XI of Resistance 10 Goggles
Ogre Power 11 of False Life 50 Belt

Few metagame tricks:

1. Upon zoning into quest, wear Verik's necklace instead of EE Stolen necklace, Replace Adamantine cloak of the wolf with Charisma 10 cloak with slot, place +2 Insightful 2 Cha in slot (I have a cloak like this with accuracy 11 on the tail end)

Once 2 boosts are used, switch for Cloak of the wolf + Stolen Necklace.

2. When Manyshotting, replace Litany with a prowess trinket for Artifact bonus to damage.


End Stats fully buffed with yugo pots/rage/Fire finisher in EARTH STANCE
http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k44/drunkdemon2k4/ScreenShot00123_zpsa2389fbd.jpg (http://s85.photobucket.com/user/drunkdemon2k4/media/ScreenShot00123_zpsa2389fbd.jpg.html)

170% fort (Not in this particular screenshot because I'm not wearing the fort 115% goatskins - but the 155% I have in the screenshot with the extra 15% will total 170% - I also have 1 Bladeforged Past life)

21% Doublestrike (Currently with 1 Martial epic past life)
71 Reflex (divine brace +1 past life atm)
77 Fortitude (divine brace +1 past life atm)
59 Will (divine brace +1 past life atm)
1030 Hitpoints (without greensteel)
41 PRR (divine past life +3 atm)
80 Strength

Stunning Blow DC:

35 Modifier + Stunning +10 + Combat Mastery +5 + LD +6 + 10 Base + 3 Past lives + 5 Enhancement + 2 fearsome presence = 76 in full DPS mode (77 if weapon attachment doesn't work out, and the points are spent on the third fighter tactic)

Adamantine Cloak of Bear = 78

Someone helps with Primal scream = 79

Once Strength +11 Belt is acquired, potentially an 80 with a slight ED point accommodation for an additional STR.

Trip DC with Bladesmark:

81 in full dps mode (82 , 83, 84, 85 respectively)

Videos:

EE EDA Mostly ESOS + Earth Stance (24:16)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3qEL7qMV4k

EE EDA Thunder Forged Falchion + Wind Stance (23:43)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPZhiekDJdQ

when you level up did you put all your points into strength?

[Drwaz99]

when you level up did you put all your points into strength?

Yes.

[Cetus]

when you level up did you put all your points into strength?

No, I hit intel a bit because my swim was low. ;)

[plukje]

No, I hit intel a bit because my swim was low. ;)

do i sense some sarcasm there? =p haha

[Jurgi]

Cetus Sir,
Could u please type ur level up order?

[Cetus]

Cetus Sir,
Could u please type ur level up order?

I don't have one - this build is intentionally posted as an end-product. Leveling order is up to your preference, there is no right way to do it.

[Nodoze]

I have been having fun in Earth Stance with Great Axes and Devastating-Crit/Headman's Chop but thinking of switching to Air Stance & Falchion.

For the Thunder-Forged Falchion what upgrades do you recommend (for a general purpose first one to fully upgrade)?

Curious also if anyone went with the +150 Repair or slotted +138 instead (or other alternatives).

[Cetus]

I have been having fun in Earth Stance with Great Axes and Devastating-Crit/Headman's Chop but thinking of switching to Air Stance & Falchion.

For the Thunder-Forged Falchion what upgrades do you recommend (for a general purpose first one to fully upgrade)?

Curious also if anyone went with the +150 Repair or slotted +138 instead (or other alternatives).

I made a vulnerability/armor piercing/draconic invigoration for boost resets is a good first one

A second one would be vulnerability/armor piercing/mortal fear for trash beating

I slotted the 138 repair, it isn't worth losing a 1st tier dps effect for an extra 12 spellpower.

[Nodoze]

I made a vulnerability/armor piercing/draconic invigoration for boost resets is a good first one

A second one would be vulnerability/armor piercing/mortal fear for trash beating

I slotted the 138 repair, it isn't worth losing a 1st tier dps effect for an extra 12 spellpower.Thanks for the fast response. I will look into the mats for those. My gut was telling me that the 150 wasn't worth losing T1 but it is kinda cool to see the 150 as an option (but likely more of a trap for melee BF DPSers).

[Nodoze]

Cetus,

After:

EE EDA Mostly ESOS + Earth Stance (24:16)
vs.
EE EDA Thunder Forged Falchion + Wind Stance (23:43)

Are you sold on moving from ESOS+Earth to Thunder-Forged-Falchion+Air as your primary?

Considering that a good part of the damage on the Falchion is now coming from Procs, what are your thoughts on going TWF and double procs on single targets/bosses?

If you were to go TWF with Thunder-Forged weapons, would you go Scimitars or Khopeshes or something else?

Also, have you moved away from the Flawless Black Dragonscale Docent entirely or only for undead content?

Interested in any other thoughts on any other changes since the original post/current-updates.

Lastly wanted to say thanks for posting the build. It has been fun and I just finished another Fighter Past Life and plan to TR my 34 pt BF into a 36 point BF. I am thinking of switching from Earth to Air because guild runs right now are mainly eTR XP/Karma zergs and I have trouble keeping up on a melee (guildmates have more experience and know the quests better than I do)... Seems like if get in Air STance I can keep up better & if I twist in 'Run with the Wind' I can can even get ahead sometimes. I don't have a ton of fate points accumulated yet so only have T2,T1,T1 twists unlocked currently anyway...

[Cetus]

Cetus,

After:

EE EDA Mostly ESOS + Earth Stance (24:16)
vs.
EE EDA Thunder Forged Falchion + Wind Stance (23:43)

Are you sold on moving from ESOS+Earth to Thunder-Forged-Falchion+Air as your primary?

Considering that a good part of the damage on the Falchion is now coming from Procs, what are your thoughts on going TWF and double procs on single targets/bosses?

If you were to go TWF with Thunder-Forged weapons, would you go Scimitars or Khopeshes or something else?

Also, have you moved away from the Flawless Black Dragonscale Docent entirely or only for undead content?

Interested in any other thoughts on any other changes since the original post/current-updates.

Lastly wanted to say thanks for posting the build. It has been fun and I just finished another Fighter Past Life and plan to TR my 34 pt BF into a 36 point BF. I am thinking of switching from Earth to Air because guild runs right now are mainly eTR XP/Karma zergs and I have trouble keeping up on a melee (guildmates have more experience and know the quests better than I do)... Seems like if get in Air STance I can keep up better & if I twist in 'Run with the Wind' I can can even get ahead sometimes. I don't have a ton of fate points accumulated yet so only have T2,T1,T1 twists unlocked currently anyway...

I usually run in earth stance regardless of the weapon - the dps difference is pretty negligible for the most part, and earth adds more defenses.

If I went TWF its a bit less decisive, It'll really depend on your damage mod to see how much that extra crit multiplier gives ya. I'd probably go with the scimi's though just because the extra threat range really capitalizes on all those on-hit procs.

I still wear dragonscale primarily, I switch to the mournlode for undead.

In the end, I don't prefer TWF - I still think THF is superior with this split for many reasons, some of which includes feat allowance, unstacking nature of some of the debuffs (like vulnerability), and the AP reconsideration to get the 10% offhand doublestrike from the other monk tree - that will invariably make you lose some dps somewhere else.

[Minrothad]

Cetus, do you think it would be a decent idea to wear a flawless shadowscale armor with the Shadow Killer upgrade? And what about one with the Shadow Striker upgrade once u21.1 kicks in?

[Nodoze]

Cetus, do you think it would be a decent idea to wear a flawless shadowscale armor with the Shadow Killer upgrade? And what about one with the Shadow Striker upgrade once u21.1 kicks in?I was looking at those also but I thought the Lammina forums were indicating that some of the options required either Mithril or Adamantium body feats which wouldn't work with Monk stances.

Be very interested in others thoughts as to what is on the Dev server now as well as to see what actually hits live. Personally I haven't farmed a Black Dragon Scale set yet on my BF and it would be one less thing to worry about.

[redspecter23]

Shadow Striker will require at least mithril body. For a build based on being centered, it just wouldn't work. You'd be looking at a completely different build at that point. Shadow Killer is likely the way to go on a centered bladeforged, but it just doesn't hold up against the black set. It's nice consolidation if a lack of slots ever becomes an issue I suppose. The sneak attack bonus might be a bit more enticing on a theoretical two weapon build perhaps.

[Minrothad]

You guys are right, I completely missed on the centered issue.

[CunningKiller]

I'm trying to get divine might to work but im failing it shows a 0 for the number of charges or something?

[Cardtrick]

I'm trying to get divine might to work but im failing it shows a 0 for the number of charges or something?

Paladin's version of Divine Might is powered by Turn Undead. However, paladins do not receive any uses of Turn Undead until level 4.

Therefore, as specified in the OP, you need to twist Bane of Undeath -- this will provide you with Turn Undead so you can actually use your Divine Might.

[Eth]

Paladin's version of Divine Might is powered by Turn Undead. However, paladins do not receive any uses of Turn Undead until level 4.

Therefore, as specified in the OP, you need to twist Bane of Undeath -- this will provide you with Turn Undead so you can actually use your Divine Might.

As a side note:
Bane of undeath became a bit more powerful as a twist with patch 21.1. Since it doesn't require a stance anymore you also get the active bonus now (2d6 bane damage + 2 weapon enhancement bonus vs undead).

[Blackheartox]

Did you try droping 2 handed feats for deflect arrows and for example epic fortitude?
Not sure how it interacts with cleaves, as i find myself spaming only cleaves/dreadnought stuff/iron fist leaving me close to no space for regular hits.
Oh and a very nice build, trd into it to get last couple martial lifes /and i was sad that my esos is siting in bank for 4 months or so.

Gjob to you sir on figuring out feats.
But srsly.. A monk with a grsword.. Thats something

[Takllin]

Did you try droping 2 handed feats for deflect arrows and for example epic fortitude?
Not sure how it interacts with cleaves, as i find myself spaming only cleaves/dreadnought stuff/iron fist leaving me close to no space for regular hits.
Oh and a very nice build, trd into it to get last couple martial lifes /and i was sad that my esos is siting in bank for 4 months or so.

Gjob to you sir on figuring out feats.
But srsly.. A monk with a grsword.. Thats something

You get glancing blows on cleave attacks, plus Deflect Arrows is a bit useless, and your Fort save should be no fail at 28.

[Blackheartox]

You get glancing blows on cleave attacks, plus Deflect Arrows is a bit useless, and your Fort save should be no fail at 28.
Glancing blows, hmm, cool cool.
Then keeping this feat setup i guess

[pesch1991]

When crafting a thunderforged falchion is tier 1 : first degree, tier 2 : Dragons Edge (stacks with black dragon armor) and tier 3 : Mortal fear the best regarding dps ? I will also keep pinion since it does more dps than TF bow so the Prowess trinket will stay as it is

[Cetus]

When crafting a thunderforged falchion is tier 1 : first degree, tier 2 : Dragons Edge (stacks with black dragon armor) and tier 3 : Mortal fear the best regarding dps ? I will also keep pinion since it does more dps than TF bow so the Prowess trinket will stay as it is

I doubt dragons edge stack with black armor, but thats the setup I found most efficient.

As far as bow, I use both pinion and a TF depending on the situation. If you are fury shotting, the TF bow is better since you are critting anyway, and the TF bow does higher base damage.

[pesch1991]

I doubt dragons edge stack with black armor, but thats the setup I found most efficient.

As far as bow, I use both pinion and a TF depending on the situation. If you are fury shotting, the TF bow is better since you are critting anyway, and the TF bow does higher base damage.

I see, well there is another question i would like to ask, would you consider slotting augments for both spell power (heal) and +250 spell points using cocoon ? Atm i am healing Through heal scrolls combined with a gs heal Amp longsword for better Heals and sovereign heal pots (saved 2000+ From the Event but they are Limited) and it is also annoying to Switch weapons everytime when Running ee well : /

[Cetus]

I see, well there is another question i would like to ask, would you consider slotting augments for both spell power (heal) and +250 spell points using cocoon ? Atm i am healing Through heal scrolls combined with a gs heal Amp longsword for better Heals and sovereign heal pots (saved 2000+ From the Event but they are Limited) and it is also annoying to Switch weapons everytime when Running ee well : /

Why do oyu care about cocoon or heals?

Slot 250 spellpoints, recon on your weapon and your reconstructs are fine.

[Nightmanis]

Why do oyu care about cocoon or heals?

Slot 250 spellpoints, recon on your weapon and your reconstructs are fine.

I think he's referring to the old build you had, as a fleshy.

If so, then yes do that and use cocoon. Just remember that when those temp HPs are gone, it stops working.

[pesch1991]

I think he's referring to the old build you had, as a fleshy.

If so, then yes do that and use cocoon. Just remember that when those temp HPs are gone, it stops working.

Yea i am Playing a half orc, very nice thank you

[Cetus]

Yea i am Playing a half orc, very nice thank you

I never used cocoon on my fleshy version. Waste of a dps twist afaic.

[Endarire]

How well does this build work on a first life Warforged in comparison? What changes should be made? What are the main advantages of Bladeforged over Warforged?

[unbongwah]

How well does this build work on a first life Warforged in comparison? What changes should be made? What are the main advantages of Bladeforged over Warforged?
Reconstruct SLA is the big difference; without it you basically have zero self-repairability. :( Power of the Forge is also a nice perk, since it stacks w/Haste Boost, just as human/HE Dmg Boost does.

[Cetus]

How well does this build work on a first life Warforged in comparison? What changes should be made? What are the main advantages of Bladeforged over Warforged?

There's no real point in going warforged. If you don't have access to bladeforged then try the human version I posted instead. The two robots are quite different in both self-healing and DPS.

[Endarire]

If going Bladeforged, what's the optimal order in which to take classes?

Also, where's the Human version?

[Blackheartox]

If going Bladeforged, what's the optimal order in which to take classes?

Also, where's the Human version?


Didnt cetus alrdy say there is NO optimal leveling route, figure it out by yourself.
It isnt hard, if you cant do at least that much dont play it.
If you cant find human version and dont know search function on forums, then dont play it.
Simple answers to simple questions.

Cetus, you using new bracers and belt?
What you do with str item slot if answer is yes?
Figuring myself what to do, 1 option is to swap in out a 11 str belt when you get dstrike buff.
2nd to use gloves and skip on sneak from backstabers, and last option is to use a dun 7 st ring or slot in 8 str somewhere

[pesch1991]

Didnt cetus alrdy say there is NO optimal leveling route, figure it out by yourself.
It isnt hard, if you cant do at least that much dont play it.
If you cant find human version and dont know search function on forums, then dont play it.
Simple answers to simple questions.

Cetus, you using new bracers and belt?
What you do with str item slot if answer is yes?
Figuring myself what to do, 1 option is to swap in out a 11 str belt when you get dstrike buff.
2nd to use gloves and skip on sneak from backstabers, and last option is to use a dun 7 st ring or slot in 8 str somewhere

both items are useless and not worth the effort imo

[Takllin]

both items are useless and not worth the effort imo

How are they useless/not worth the effort?

You need to run the raid anyways to get your phlogistons...

[Nodoze]

If going Bladeforged, what's the optimal order in which to take classes?

Also, where's the Human version?The u19 human version is here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/422550-U19-Fighter-Build-Cetus

I was running a Bladeforged varient of the Human build back then as I was doing it on a first lifer back then. Unfortunately I can't find my planner. In one of my notes I see the following leveling order:

PMFFMFFFFFMMMPFFFFFM

My memory is that on my 3rd life I think I delayed at least the 5th monk level some to spread it out a little more to keep skills maxed more something like:

PMFFMFFFFFMMPFFFMFFM

To get the optimal skills you may need to string out the Monk/Paladin levels a little more... Maybe someone else has more details as to what they did (sorry I can't find my planner) but in the end it doesn't matter that much.

Note that with BladeForged, unless you are going to burn at least a LR+1 you have to start level 1 as a Paladin which defeats the normal logic for which class to take at First level for multi-classes as normally you take the class that will give you the most starting skill points first and/or will unlock full ranks in special skills like UMD... With F/M/P I believe you would normally want to take Monk first to get the most skill points but I don't know that it is worth burning a LR+1 for that (I didn't).

[Eth]

both items are useless and not worth the effort imo

The belt is really nice. You get the doublestrike proc as soon as you get hit and it lasts for 45 seconds.

[Takllin]

The belt is really nice. You get the doublestrike proc as soon as you get hit and it lasts for 45 seconds.

This ^

Even if you only use it as a hotswap to keep up the doublestrike proc, it is an amazing item.

[Thrudh]

80 Strength

What's the breakdown on this? How do you achieve an 80 STR?

[-Zyxas-]

My 2 cp on leveling order... (I don't really have any "koalafications", but I mess with new builds a lot. My main character is a monkcher. I also have a staffy and a paladin and some random low level characters.)

First, a few details on what this leveling order is intended for. First life, +3 tomes, 1 LR+0 (the free one! wanted more skills), Bladeforged.
For base stats, I put 14/14/16/9/10/13. This gets me OC at level 24 with a +3 tome, Manyshot with a +3 tome, Zen with +3, plenty of con and skills, and a healthy dose of charisma. I assume it'll be mostly even numbers with full gear because of the +3 str and con tomes "cancelling" with scream, and odd base cha + odd tome = even. It largely depends on +7/8/10/11 and +2/3 insightful items...

PMFMP(+7F)(+4M)(+4F)

I like the feat progression with this because monk earlier allows for master of forms as a heroic feat, and bow use without bleeding ki from level 16 on. Also, for skills I was able to max UMD and Repair with almost enough points to max a second skill. (I somewhat arbitrarily chose balance, though I would consider spot, intim, diplo, or jump [1st life = no BTC clickies]). Rather than stunning blow (requires item and ED investment, and favors ridiculously high strength from past life build points and tomes) and completionist (1st life build.) I took gTHF and Grandmaster stances.

For a completionist/+5 tomes build, I would probably take 9-10 base wisdom anyway and take the 6th monk level earlier than level 20. I personally would rather have a normal ("leveling") progression than more-optimized-for-cap stats. I enjoy the journey of leveling up enough to slightly skimp on 100% full potential at cap.

[Cetus]

What's the breakdown on this? How do you achieve an 80 STR?

18 base
7 Levelups
5 tome
10 Item
1 Exceptional
2 Completionist
2 Enhancement
1 Destiny
1 Profane
2 Ship
2 Rage
4 Tenser's
8 Power Surge
15 Divine Might
2 Yugoloth Potion
____________________

80

Which isn't max either

+6 strength tome + +11 str item + +6 Cha tome and a starting 16 cha = +3 more strength

[unbongwah]

2 Rage
Primal Scream is worth up to +3 more than this (assume you mean the spell, not the barb feat).

If you're lucky enough to have a bard w/Inspire Excellence along, that's another +3 STR (+2 directly and another +1 from +2 CHA).

[Thrudh]

18 base
7 Levelups
5 tome
10 Item
1 Exceptional
2 Completionist
2 Enhancement
1 Destiny
1 Profane
2 Ship
2 Rage
4 Tenser's
8 Power Surge
15 Divine Might
2 Yugoloth Potion
____________________

80

Which isn't max either

+6 strength tome + +11 str item + +6 Cha tome and a starting 16 cha = +3 more strength

Many thanks... I forgot about Tensers.... What's your CHA breakdown? Ah, never mind, I see how the litany and completionist would get you to 40 CHA.

I may have to go for completionist now... :( +2 STR AND +2 CHA is pretty nice for a stunning build with Divine Might.

[Cetus]

Primal Scream is worth up to +3 more than this (assume you mean the spell, not the barb feat).

If you're lucky enough to have a bard w/Inspire Excellence along, that's another +3 STR (+2 directly and another +1 from +2 CHA).

Well yea, but I was talking about self-buffed - and primal scream isn't optimal on this build, better twists out there

You can throw in a store pot too if you like =D

[pesch1991]

Well yea, but I was talking about self-buffed - and primal scream isn't optimal on this build, better twists out there

You can throw in a store pot too if you like =D

Even More a waste if you take the stalwart defender line spending only 11 points and Gain 25 prr + 3 saves 10% fortification + 23 hp but stalwart stance rules for me since i will be on dreadnought all the time its that good and humans will give enough Str anyway , i have one question cetus what will you do if they do anything to bladeforged reconstruct sla ?

[Cetus]

i have one question cetus what will you do if they do anything to bladeforged reconstruct sla ?

I'll simply go back to human after rage-quitting for a week. That would be one of the dumbest and most lazy changes.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Has someone put this build through Ron's character planner yet?

[Cetus]

Updated OP with wgu solo video

[Luxmus]

I don't know how to set up a new thread, on ddo forum.
Pls help me.

[Fedora1]

EDIT - Nevermind my reading comprehension needs work. lol

Very nice build though. :)

[Cetus]

EDIT - Nevermind my reading comprehension needs work. lol

Very nice build though. :)

It won't be nice for long, the devs are planning on chopping it up with this divine grace nerf talk and the weakening of the THF style with 200% stat and 30% weapon attack speed mods in SWF. Not to mention how it stacking with TWF in animal form seem to be WAI. I don't want to play a **** dog to make a higher DPS toon.

Its ridiculous

[Mryal]

It won't be nice for long, the devs are planning on chopping it up with this divine grace nerf talk and the weakening of the THF style with 200% stat and 30% weapon attack speed mods in SWF. Not to mention how it stacking with TWF in animal form seem to be WAI. I don't want to play a **** dog to make a higher DPS toon.

Its ridiculous

Last state on lamania is +30% speed but no 200% stat on wolf.From what i heard on cordovan's stream this is not WAI, SWF should not work on wolves.Neither is TWF wich has been working for months.They made em both mutualy exclusive...but forgot to block it for ranger lvls.so meh.I bug reported, spoke on stream, posted on forums, did whatever to try to prevent this **** from happening and im not sure if it did any good.guess we'll find out tomorrow.

I have a guildie that is EE DPS Capable and blitz trash killer on the new raids aswell on a druid/monk wolf build with zero TWF feats, he never took em because he considers it bug exploiting (and it is).So meh.Wolf never needed TWF.It doesnt needs SWF either.

[Eth]

What are your plans for U22 after all your lammania tests?

[Purkilius]

It won't be nice for long, the devs are planning on chopping it up with this divine grace nerf talk and the weakening of the THF style with 200% stat and 30% weapon attack speed mods in SWF. Not to mention how it stacking with TWF in animal form seem to be WAI. I don't want to play a **** dog to make a higher DPS toon.

Its ridiculous

I have trouble changing to a dog when I play my Druid just for the run speed...

[pesch1991]

Is Balizarde, Protector of the King the obvious choice when single weapon fighting ? Its pretty good if you ask me they call it one handed esos for a reason :D

[painkiller3]

Is Balizarde, Protector of the King the obvious choice when single weapon fighting ? Its pretty good if you ask me they call it one handed esos for a reason :D

actually i think that Nightmare the fallen moon will be. if nightmare works like it used to work on terror, with the epic single weapon fighting you can autokill on 19-20 (expanded vorpal they call it)

[pesch1991]

actually i think that Nightmare the fallen moon will be. if nightmare works like it used to work on terror, with the epic single weapon fighting you can autokill on 19-20 (expanded vorpal they call it)

Balizarde does more dps who cares about a sword with a puny range of 17-20 and a weak multiplier of x2 keep in mind that life stealing was nerfed and most mobs in epic content save often versus nightmare.

[Cetus]

What are your plans for U22 after all your lammania tests?

After comparing many videos it seems that my takedowns with SWF were, on average about 8% faster than THF for red named mobs, and no real difference for cleaving mass groups. I used the harpie in lines of supply, and the end giant in breaking the ice (after white dotting him, since he takes some damage during the caster fight) in addition to zeligat in WGU. In the end, I decided to remain as a THF'er with a slight modification in my AP's spent - I reduced my tactics DC's a bit and picked up quick strike from henshin mystic and swapped out ITHF for quick draw.

Now, I swap in a quarterstaff to quick strike for 25% extra doublestrike with a THF thunderforged falchion. It sounds like a pain, but its quite smooth with a programmable mouse and quick draw.

Additionally, I couldn't find a good way to keep ranged and stunning blow on the SWF build. GSWF and exotic weapon proficiency were cutting into either of the two. I also tried just getting rid of stunning blow entirely and all the tactics gear/enhancements and just going with a dwarven axe + anvil as my helpless CC, this way I can drop stunning blow and completionist for GSWF and exotic, but meh - I'm a THF guy, so I decided to remain as a THF with stunning blow and manyshot. Hopefully the pendulum will swing back toward THF eventually.

[painkiller3]

...
Now, I swap in a quarterstaff to quick strike for 25% extra doublestrike with a THF thunderforged falchion. It sounds like a pain, but its quite smooth with a programmable mouse and quick draw.

...


so you're saying that the quick strike is on the character not the weapon? so you're subbing in a quarterstaff, quick strike, switch back to falchion and the doublestrike stays?

[Nightmanis]

so you're saying that the quick strike is on the character not the weapon? so you're subbing in a quarterstaff, quick strike, switch back to falchion and the doublestrike stays?

I think this may need to be fight clubbed before it's "fixed"

[Cetus]

so you're saying that the quick strike is on the character not the weapon? so you're subbing in a quarterstaff, quick strike, switch back to falchion and the doublestrike stays?

Sure,

this isn't fightclub - its a quarterstaff attack, the resulting buff isn't a quarterstaff buff. You need to spend a feat on quick draw to make this transition bearable.

[painkiller3]

Balizarde does more dps who cares about a sword with a puny range of 17-20 and a weak multiplier of x2 keep in mind that life stealing was nerfed and most mobs in epic content save often versus nightmare.

not appropriate for "cetus build" conversation, but i thikn that swashbuckler bard (particularly DEX build with DEX to damage) will do big damage regardless of what the crit range is

Exploit Weaknesses: While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically crit. in addition to getting evasion as the capstone...i think i'm (temporarily) over to the bard forums :) does the new juggernaut include 5 levels of bard??

[painkiller3]

i was thinking about TRing my Cetus into a bard and doing all this swashbuckler stuff, then i saw some of Cetus' videos from the other thread and just decided to get me a decent one hand weapon (or four) and try it next epic TR. if it ends up not being as great i can always whip out the eSOS

Great videos Cetus.

[Cetus]

i was thinking about TRing my Cetus into a bard and doing all this swashbuckler stuff, then i saw some of Cetus' videos from the other thread and just decided to get me a decent one hand weapon (or four) and try it next epic TR. if it ends up not being as great i can always whip out the eSOS

Great videos Cetus.

thank you - I feel very powerful when I test SWF on this build, but...

I already compromised by not staying pure once that got butchered with these new enhancements. I'm not deviating away from THF too. I'll stick to my guns and hopefully the devs will treat THF's justly. Its also worth mentioning that if ITHF/GTHF ever become useful, I'd have to compromise two of my feats right now (I use quick draw with quick strike right now and dropped ITHF, I need to update the OP at some point).

[Zerkul]

I know how you feel Cetus... I'm staying THF on my Barbarian as well because I like it this way. I hope THF will get attention at some point.

[Nayus]

thank you - I feel very powerful when I test SWF on this build, but...

I already compromised by not staying pure once that got butchered with these new enhancements. I'm not deviating away from THF too. I'll stick to my guns and hopefully the devs will treat THF's justly. Its also worth mentioning that if ITHF/GTHF ever become useful, I'd have to compromise two of my feats right now (I use quick draw with quick strike right now and dropped ITHF, I need to update the OP at some point).

Are you having any troubles with that combo? Like making less attacks because you're swapping weapons for example?

Thoughts about dropping that combo for SWF?
I apologize for my lack of knowledge but I don't know what WF:Ranged and Zen Archery are for, are those 2 really necessary?

This involves pride and player preference but assuming you were only worried about maximum efficiency, would be tempted to go Bard with all recent changes? They have far more reliable tactics, you'll be able to twist a AoE stunning blow and now all 3 trees look really interesting, note this does not require swashbuckling.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

wf ranged - prereq for bow str

zen archery - treat bows as ki weapons, prevents ki loss while using a bow, prevents having to reactivate stance and ninja dot, allows earth stance to be used with bow

[Cetus]

Are you having any troubles with that combo? Like making less attacks because you're swapping weapons for example?

Thoughts about dropping that combo for SWF?
I apologize for my lack of knowledge but I don't know what WF:Ranged and Zen Archery are for, are those 2 really necessary?

This involves pride and player preference but assuming you were only worried about maximum efficiency, would be tempted to go Bard with all recent changes? They have far more reliable tactics, you'll be able to twist a AoE stunning blow and now all 3 trees look really interesting, note this does not require swashbuckling.

Playing with a 13 rogue 6 bard 1 fvs on lamaland right now, I'll post more feedback once I can demonstrate it with some footage.

[maddong]

Playing with a 13 rogue 6 bard 1 fvs on lamaland right now, I'll post more feedback once I can demonstrate it with some footage.

Is that a charisma based tactics build?

[Cetus]

Is that a charisma based tactics build?

It's still strength based, but a very significant charisma investment to get the tactics in at least the low 70's DC. Still toying with the stat allocation.

Went with SWF, SM, ISM, improved SA, overwhelming crit, opportunist, improved evasion, with uber SA damage, quick strike, handaxe swashbuckler profile with orb. headmans chop + anvil, AP are INSANELY tight though.

Max perform ranks to scale up the resonant arms weapon damage and fascinate DC.

The doublestrike is getting pretty stupid - 18% from shield mastery feats + twist, 6% from warchanter, 25% quick strike etc.

[maddong]

Sounds pretty sweet!

[Cetus]

Sounds pretty sweet!

Sounded better on paper, I scratched it - too awkward to play for me and the to-hit on the build was pretty bad.

[Cetus]

OP updated with the more recent version of this build, including cropped screenshots!

[Nodoze]

OP updated with the more recent version of this build, including cropped screenshots!Thanks. I enjoy playing this on my melee. I see some incremental stat in increases and maybe some updated gear. Did you change anything else?

[painkiller3]

Next epic TR I am going to try subbing out THF for SWF...any advice on a ml20 one hand weapon...oathblAde requires no farming have I overlooked something else?

[Fedora1]

Next epic TR I am going to try subbing out THF for SWF...any advice on a ml20 one hand weapon...oathblAde requires no farming have I overlooked something else?

Hmm was going to suggest the Drow Longsword of the Weapon Master but that's ML21...

[Nayus]

Cetus, you need to bring your minions to the Armor Up Developer Diaries, they're trying to kill your build :O
Either way this will undoubtedly need some revisions.

And it seems the current suggestion is to turn "Holy Sword" (a crappy pally spell) into a buff that increases both your multiplier and threat range by one, clearly leaving the Kensei Tier 5 behind. You said you strayed away from Pure Fighter and didn't want to stray away from THF. Now THF is getting buff but you might find yourself with a Paladin icon.

[Takllin]

Cetus, you need to bring your minions to the Armor Up Developer Diaries, they're trying to kill your build :O
Either way this will undoubtedly need some revisions.

And it seems the current suggestion is to turn "Holy Sword" (a crappy pally spell) into a buff that increases both your multiplier and threat range by one, clearly leaving the Kensei Tier 5 behind. You said you strayed away from Pure Fighter and didn't want to stray away from THF. Now THF is getting buff but you might find yourself with a Paladin icon.

His build is still much better than a Paladin with this new proposed Holy Sword spell. Much better.

[Cetus]

Cetus, you need to bring your minions to the Armor Up Developer Diaries, they're trying to kill your build :O
Either way this will undoubtedly need some revisions.

And it seems the current suggestion is to turn "Holy Sword" (a crappy pally spell) into a buff that increases both your multiplier and threat range by one, clearly leaving the Kensei Tier 5 behind. You said you strayed away from Pure Fighter and didn't want to stray away from THF. Now THF is getting buff but you might find yourself with a Paladin icon.

What are you talking about? Why would I find myself with a pally icon simply because of holy sword?

[Monkey_Archer]

9-20 x4 crit paladin stick builds are the future. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ

[Nodoze]

9-20 x4 crit paladin stick builds are the future. :) ... I would like to see Paladins get buffed such that they are more than just 2-6 level splashes...

[Cetus]

9-20 x4 crit paladin stick builds are the future. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7qQ6_RV4VQ

Well, that makes you give up thunder-forged =D

[Zoda]

His build is still much better than a Paladin with this new proposed Holy Sword spell. Much better.

We'll see about that ^^

[Nightmanis]

We'll see about that ^^

I'm calling it now. Competence bonus that stacks after improved critical. Makes a dwarven Axe an 18-20/x4.

Sireth is still tempting though. But a falchion is still going to be better than a stick.

[Takllin]

We'll see about that ^^

For what his build accomplishes and the playstyle/fighting style it won't be.

[Nayus]

Exactly, so show me a build with Holy Sword, an ESoS or TF Falchion, Manyshot, and does better DPS than this build does.

Hint, you won't. Stop trying to troll, your getting worse and worse each time. Try adding some constructive feedback for a change.

I think you might want to look in the mirror on talking about nonsense.....

At the time you posted that Deverlin hadn't decided Holy Sword was a competence bonus, oh to be honest, you posted that in the very first day of the Dev Diaries, thus you would be able to roll this as 14/5/1 Pal/Ftr/Monk and, in DPS terms, give up 4 STR mod for a critical multiplier.

4 STR or a critical multiplier?

[Takllin]

At the time you posted that Deverlin hadn't decided Holy Sword was a competence bonus, oh to be honest, you posted that in the very first day of the Dev Diaries, thus you would be able to roll this as 14/5/1 Pal/Ftr/Monk and, in DPS terms, give up 4 STR mod for a critical multiplier.

4 STR or a critical multiplier?

I'm sorry but it is a lot more than just that trade off...

[Nayus]

I'm sorry but it is a lot more than just that trade off...
You asked if it would do more DPS :P

[Takllin]

You asked if it would do more DPS :P

There is a lot more that adds to this builds DPS than 4 damage is my point. If you think that is the only difference, well then...

Point still remains, that Holy Sword isn't more DPS. One crit multiplier outside of 19-20 does not do more DPS than a Cetus build with the same setup.

[Cetus]

At the time you posted that Deverlin hadn't decided Holy Sword was a competence bonus, oh to be honest, you posted that in the very first day of the Dev Diaries, thus you would be able to roll this as 14/5/1 Pal/Ftr/Monk and, in DPS terms, give up 4 STR mod for a critical multiplier.

4 STR or a critical multiplier?

This is so wrong.

14/5/1 pal/ftr/mnk = Losing 7 feats versus the 12/6/2 centered kensei build

- You lose ranged (unless you gimp your DPS)

- You lose the ability to get centered with weapon of choice

- You lose shadow fade

- You lose evasion

- You lose fists of iron

- You lose ninja poison

- You lose tier 2 + 3 SA from Ninja spy

- You lose dance of flowers as a result of being uncentered with chosen weapon, unless you confine yourself to a monk weapon (i.e., quarterstaff, in which case you're better off with rogue due to the stacking speed boost)

Try again maybe?

[Nayus]

Taklin, why are you not like him? He posts a lot of uncounterable intelligent stuff.

And I agree Cetus, this build, contrary to what the title says, is nothing without monk, it's shambed to bits, reduced to a big mass of gimp. The monk levels are the build itself and putting some random fighter levels to be a Greatsword-wielding monk was a great idea like Carpone and you showed us. Thus, it's correct, the best way to do Monk DPS is being a fighter.

[Cetus]

Taklin, why are you not like him? He posts a lot of uncounterable intelligent stuff.

And I agree Cetus, this build, contrary to what the title says, is nothing without monk, it's shambed to bits, reduced to a big mass of gimp. The monk levels are the build itself and putting some random fighter levels to be a Greatsword-wielding monk was a great idea like Carpone and you showed us. Thus, it's correct, the best way to do Monk DPS is being a fighter.

This build would be weaker without monk. But not nothing. You can substitute the monk with bard and the pally levels with favored soul, place all levelups into charisma, start with a 18 strength / 18 cha, pickup quicken and drop ranged.

You'd have a low-mid 70's strnegth with like a 50-52 charisma translating into a low 70's spinning ice attack, retention of the same multiplier benefit earth stance gave, and 6% extra damage + doublestrike.

You lose some defenses such as shadow fade, but you gain back quicken and some decent DPS

[Nayus]

This build would be weaker without monk. But not nothing. You can substitute the monk with bard and the pally levels with favored soul, place all levelups into charisma, start with a 18 strength / 18 cha, pickup quicken and drop ranged.

You'd have a low-mid 70's strnegth with like a 50-52 charisma translating into a low 70's spinning ice attack, retention of the same multiplier benefit earth stance gave, and 6% extra damage + doublestrike.

You lose some defenses such as shadow fade, but you gain back quicken and some decent DPS
This is so wrong.

- You lose ranged (unless you gimp your DPS)

- You lose the ability to get centered with weapon of choice

- You lose shadow fade

- You lose evasion

- You lose fists of iron

- You lose ninja poison

- You lose tier 2 + 3 SA from Ninja spy

- You lose dance of flowers as a result of being uncentered with chosen weapon, unless you confine yourself to a monk weapon (i.e., quarterstaff, in which case you're better off with rogue due to the stacking speed boost)

- You lose Glancing Blows

Try again maybe?

[Maelodic]

This is so wrong.

- You lose ranged (unless you gimp your DPS)

- You lose the ability to get centered with weapon of choice

- You lose shadow fade

- You lose evasion

- You lose fists of iron

- You lose ninja poison

- You lose tier 2 + 3 SA from Ninja spy

- You lose dance of flowers as a result of being uncentered with chosen weapon, unless you confine yourself to a monk weapon (i.e., quarterstaff, in which case you're better off with rogue due to the stacking speed boost)

- You lose Glancing Blows

Try again maybe?

You aren't listening at all, are you?

These things are made up by other options that people have. I know you're on a crusade against centered builds but this is not the place to fight it.

[Spoonwelder]

I hate you Cetus......I used this build on my main. I have done a different life every time I TR'd and once I got completionist this is the build I went with for 'final life'......now I want to TR again to try something new but I can't - I know it will be substandard compared to this..... and the gear investment (though I am nowhere near to getting to where you are) to make any significant change in build makes me shudder.

I guess I can keep ETRing but that's getting boring.

You've ruined me for all other men...i mean builds....sob.

Seriously - awesome build - so good a gimp like me can make it work.

[LargoKeyWest]

Any chance of getting a level by level progressive list of what skills/feats/stats to enhance/take each level?

[Spoonwelder]

Any chance of getting a level by level progressive list of what skills/feats/stats to enhance/take each level?

Read the first post - pretty much says no to that in the post.

But to actually help
Levelling - Pa/Mo/Mo/Pa/Fi x12/Mox4
Feats - as he said main thing is first Two Monk Levels PA and THF - the rest is pretty basic and set by pre-reqs (ie. manyshot needs PBS and Rapidshot first - Greater Weapon Spec needs Fighter 8). Then Monk level 6 is Zen Archery. It leaves you with some feats to take in Epics at 21/24/27 - I like them in the order Master of forms, Manyshot, OC but you may want to mix that up at your pleasure.

Enhancements- only takes plat to respec those so do what you want but really you want to climb the Kensai tree as fast as you can to get to using your swords - then get Communion of Scribing for healing - the rest is incremental improvement.

Skills - I take UMD at every level, then as points allow - repair in fighter levels, balance in monk levels - that gets me to 11 UMD, 20ish repair, 10ish balance probably don't need that much balance but 3 more repair isn't gonna do too much.

Stats - reread the first post. All level ups to strength.

[Zer0AcmE]

Cetus have you considered/experimented with any of the following:

THF Thunderforged Maul (15-20 x3)
TWF Mornh's (X2) (13-20 x3) - (What I've played in since first seeing this build and thanks for posting it) *Note - Opens ring slot, +10 Stunning from hammer
TWF Thunderforged Warhammers + Mornh's (15-20 x3/13-20 x3) *Note - Opens ring slot, +10 Stunning from hammer
TWF Khopeshs (13-20 x3)
*Didn't edit the multipliers to save time

I've experimented a little with replacing the 2 Paladin levels with 2 Ranger levels when I go the TWF route, opens up a few feats (Rapid Shot/TWF/Bow Strength for free) and with PTWF you'll be at 100% Offhand. This version is wicked fast.

For those who've asked, best level progressions are:

Range Build
1-5 Monk
6-7 Paladin
8-19 Fighter
20 Monk

Melee Build
1-6 Monk
7-8 Paladin
9-20 Fighter

[Nodoze]

Cetus have you considered/experimented with any of the following:

THF Thunderforged Maul (15-20 x3)
TWF Mornh's (X2) (13-20 x3) - (What I've played in since first seeing this build and thanks for posting it) *Note - Opens ring slot, +10 Stunning from hammer
TWF Thunderforged Warhammers + Mornh's (15-20 x3/13-20 x3) *Note - Opens ring slot, +10 Stunning from hammer
TWF Khopeshs (13-20 x3)
*Didn't edit the multipliers to save time

I've experimented a little with replacing the 2 Paladin levels with 2 Ranger levels when I go the TWF route, opens up a few feats (Rapid Shot/TWF/Bow Strength for free) and with PTWF you'll be at 100% Offhand. This version is wicked fast.

For those who've asked, best level progressions are:

Range Build
1-5 Monk
6-7 Paladin
8-19 Fighter
20 Monk

Melee Build
1-6 Monk
7-8 Paladin
9-20 FighterI am also interested in TWF versions of this build and those ideas though IIRC I think that technically:


- The build can currently already get +10% offhand attacks from shifting some AP to Monk level 1's Shinto tree;
- Getting +10% offhand from Ranger requires splashing 3 ranger levels (+20% requires level 12);
- Perfect TWF actually gives +10% offhand double strike (&+5% mainhand doublestrike) which is a little different than +10% offhand attack procs.

[Cetus]

Cetus have you considered/experimented with any of the following:

THF Thunderforged Maul (15-20 x3)
TWF Mornh's (X2) (13-20 x3) - (What I've played in since first seeing this build and thanks for posting it) *Note - Opens ring slot, +10 Stunning from hammer
TWF Thunderforged Warhammers + Mornh's (15-20 x3/13-20 x3) *Note - Opens ring slot, +10 Stunning from hammer
TWF Khopeshs (13-20 x3)
*Didn't edit the multipliers to save time

I've experimented a little with replacing the 2 Paladin levels with 2 Ranger levels when I go the TWF route, opens up a few feats (Rapid Shot/TWF/Bow Strength for free) and with PTWF you'll be at 100% Offhand. This version is wicked fast.

For those who've asked, best level progressions are:

Range Build
1-5 Monk
6-7 Paladin
8-19 Fighter
20 Monk

Melee Build
1-6 Monk
7-8 Paladin
9-20 Fighter

Yep, TWF is a great way to go - but keep in mind that you'd need to sacrifice completionist or stunning blow to pick up GTWF. But, the attack speed is kinda screwy when you twitch around - I just don't like the way TWF plays right now. SWF seems quite a bit stronger.

The maul is a great idea too - I think it is fairly balanced against the falchion, since you're weighing the multiplier against 2 extra threat expansion. The extra destiny point expenditure on pulverizer and anvil results in a sacrifice somewhere though, albeit not a large one.

Either of the choices will work fine, it's really just preference at that point.

[Eth]

The maul is a great idea too - I think it is fairly balanced against the falchion, since you're weighing the multiplier against 2 extra threat expansion. The extra destiny point expenditure on pulverizer and anvil results in a sacrifice somewhere though, albeit not a large one.

It's been some updates since I last checked but pulverizer used to be competence bonus and therefore doesn't stack with one with the blade. Anything changed?

Blunt weapons are a great way to go though. U21 raids and HH are full with skeletons and we have Epic orchard in U23 coming.

[Cetus]

It's been some updates since I last checked but pulverizer used to be competence bonus and therefore doesn't stack with one with the blade. Anything changed?

Blunt weapons are a great way to go though. U21 raids and HH are full with skeletons and we have Epic orchard in U23 coming.

You might be right actually

[Wormfood]

I'm about to reincarnate into something like this, but can't help wonder how it will be affected by paladin changes, especially capping the bonus to saves from Divine Grace. What do you think?

Might it be worth taking more paladin levels at the expense of either fighter or monk levels?

[Nodoze]

I'm about to reincarnate into something like this, but can't help wonder how it will be affected by paladin changes, especially capping the bonus to saves from Divine Grace. What do you think?

Might it be worth taking more paladin levels at the expense of either fighter or monk levels?Personally I don't worry too much about future changes that may happen "soon" (TM) as it takes time to develope/test/deploy and LRs are easy and it may be time for a TR by that point anyway... That being said I don't think the proposed changes ruin this build by any means and think it will still be very powerful/viable.

[Chimeran1]

Yep, TWF is a great way to go - but keep in mind that you'd need to sacrifice completionist or stunning blow to pick up GTWF. But, the attack speed is kinda screwy when you twitch around - I just don't like the way TWF plays right now. SWF seems quite a bit stronger.

The maul is a great idea too - I think it is fairly balanced against the falchion, since you're weighing the multiplier against 2 extra threat expansion. The extra destiny point expenditure on pulverizer and anvil results in a sacrifice somewhere though, albeit not a large one.

Either of the choices will work fine, it's really just preference at that point.

Your SWF vs my Bladeforged dual khopesh centered kensai in grand master earth stance..... You be dreamin. :)

[Wormfood]

Personally I don't worry too much about future changes that may happen "soon" (TM) as it takes time to develope/test/deploy and LRs are easy and it may be time for a TR by that point anyway... That being said I don't think the proposed changes ruin this build by any means and think it will still be very powerful/viable.Yea... I went with standard 2/6/12 split. I will try without ranged feats first and see how much I miss them, then might get them after ER. So far at level 18 it's fun :)

Edit: At 20 there sure are a lot of 30-60 second boosts and a lot of cleaves and other special attacks to cycle... will take a little while getting used to.

[Zoda]

You might be right actually

He is right. (we talked about this many times you nub)

[11001]

Masters blitz ? A horrible change Awaits us all...

[Feithlin]

Masters blitz ? A horrible change Awaits us all...

He'll just run in Fury (furyshot, you know...).

*Edit: or may load blitz with manyshot.

[Cetus]

There's a good chance this might get changed to the U23 Cetus: The Supreme Bladeforged Paladin

Sadly...fighter is getting weeded out - I've already tried a pally version and it seems to be higher damage output.

Holy Sword alone is better than earth stance + keen edge + dance of flowers combined.

Losing power surge, 8 damage from kensei specs, 2% doublestrike from core, and ninja poison from monk is made up by 10% doublestrike from zeal, and all the back hand light damage that is amplified by melee power, not to mention the extra 10 melee power you get after smiting..

Oh yea the smites - With 16 pally - get 55 damage (smite damage is 3* pally level + 7) + 2 multiplier + 2 threat, and 14 smites. That means it crits on an 11 with this falchion here in LD, on a 9 in crusader. And, divine sacrifice almost compensates for the loss of fists of iron.

Only big loss here is shadow fade, but meh.

Oh, holy sword works on bow - so a 17-20 x4 thunder forged bow gets put to good use as well.

Aaaaaaan, this liberates a turn undead twist slot.

I went with a 16 pally / 2 fighter / 2 monk - this actually wins on feats, because fighter requires 3 for enhancements, don't need to take cleave/Gcl since its in KOTC - that's 5 feats saved, loss of level 6 monk doesn't matter because I'm not taking stances or zen archery since I can't be centered.

So, 16/2/2 = 14 feats.

last point - 3 attack + damage from divine favor partly compensates for the loss of 8 damage from fighter specs, and bladesworn transformation gives 2 addition strength on top of epic litany - and you can recon during that so might as well use it when its off timer.

[TheLegendOfAra]

There's a good chance this might get changed to the U23 Cetus: The Supreme Bladeforged Paladin

Sadly...fighter is getting weeded out - I've already tried a pally version and it seems to be higher damage output.

Holy Sword alone is better than earth stance + keen edge + dance of flowers combined.

Losing power surge, 8 damage from kensei specs, 2% doublestrike from core, and ninja poison from monk is made up by 10% doublestrike from zeal, and all the back hand light damage that is amplified by melee power, not to mention the extra 10 melee power you get after smiting..

Oh yea the smites - With 16 pally - get 55 damage (smite damage is 3* pally level + 7) + 2 multiplier + 2 threat, and 14 smites. That means it crits on an 11 with this falchion here in LD, on a 9 in crusader. And, divine sacrifice almost compensates for the loss of fists of iron.

Only big loss here is shadow fade, but meh.

Oh, holy sword works on bow - so a 17-20 x4 thunder forged bow gets put to good use as well.

Aaaaaaan, this liberates a turn undead twist slot.

I went with a 16 pally / 2 fighter / 2 monk - this actually wins on feats, because fighter requires 3 for enhancements, don't need to take cleave/Gcl since its in KOTC - that's 5 feats saved, loss of level 6 monk doesn't matter because I'm not taking stances or zen archery since I can't be centered.

So, 16/2/2 = 14 feats.

last point - 3 attack + damage from divine favor partly compensates for the loss of 8 damage from fighter specs, and bladesworn transformation gives 2 addition strength on top of epic litany - and you can recon during that so might as well use it when its off timer.

As sad as it is to see Fighters losing out to Paladins in the DPS department, I do wonder what this would mean for the best Paladin split...
I've been considering a Pyrene for my next life(Need more pali past lives anyways) And these changes seem like they would benefit that split greatly.

I haven't personally been paying to much attention to them though, so I'm sure I've missed a lot of the particulars.
That being said, would there be any issues with the new changes that would make the Pyrene split bad, or not advisable?
15Paladin/3Ranger/2Monk or 14Paladin/4Ranger/2Monk

From the gist of what I've been seeing it seems like more paladin levels = better, but what exactly would I miss out on with only 14 or 15 levels instead of 16?

[Nayus]

There's a good chance this might get changed to the U23 Cetus: The Supreme Bladeforged Paladin

Sadly...fighter is getting weeded out - I've already tried a pally version and it seems to be higher damage output.

Holy Sword alone is better than earth stance + keen edge + dance of flowers combined.

etc
I told you...

[Cetus]

I told you...

huh?

You told me a lot of things...most of it wasn't very memorable

[Nayus]

huh?

You told me a lot of things...most of it wasn't very memorable
My wisdom burns into your heart, not into your memory.
You have grown, Cetus. I am proud to see your development, to see you finally following my teachings.

[Takllin]

I haven't personally been paying to much attention to them though, so I'm sure I've missed a lot of the particulars.
That being said, would there be any issues with the new changes that would make the Pyrene split bad, or not advisable?
15Paladin/3Ranger/2Monk or 14Paladin/4Ranger/2Monk

From the gist of what I've been seeing it seems like more paladin levels = better, but what exactly would I miss out on with only 14 or 15 levels instead of 16?

The main things you would lose are Zeal, but with 4 Ranger you would gain Rams Might.

So its 10% Doublestrike vs +2 STR and +3 Damage.

[TheLegendOfAra]

The main things you would lose are Zeal, but with 4 Ranger you would gain Rams Might.

So its 10% Doublestrike vs +2 STR and +3 Damage.

Hmm, currently on live you get Zeal at level 14 correct?
What are the changing it to, 16?

[Takllin]

Hmm, currently on live you get Zeal at level 14 correct?
What are the changing it to, 16?

True, but with U23, Holy Sword is becoming kinda awesome, and you only get 1 level 4 spell at 14. 15 Paladin gives you two, so you can have Zeal and Holy Sword.

Also I misread your first post, I thought you meant what the difference was between 14 and 15, not 16. 16 Paladin doesn't give you much besides maybe a few more SP/saves/damage to your smite evil.

[Cetus]

Derp

Weird

[Zoda]

There's a good chance this might get changed to the U23 Cetus: The Supreme Bladeforged Paladin

Sadly...fighter is getting weeded out - I've already tried a pally version and it seems to be higher damage output.

Holy Sword alone is better than earth stance + keen edge + dance of flowers combined.

Losing power surge, 8 damage from kensei specs, 2% doublestrike from core, and ninja poison from monk is made up by 10% doublestrike from zeal, and all the back hand light damage that is amplified by melee power, not to mention the extra 10 melee power you get after smiting..

Oh yea the smites - With 16 pally - get 55 damage (smite damage is 3* pally level + 7) + 2 multiplier + 2 threat, and 14 smites. That means it crits on an 11 with this falchion here in LD, on a 9 in crusader. And, divine sacrifice almost compensates for the loss of fists of iron.

Only big loss here is shadow fade, but meh.

Oh, holy sword works on bow - so a 17-20 x4 thunder forged bow gets put to good use as well.

Aaaaaaan, this liberates a turn undead twist slot.

I went with a 16 pally / 2 fighter / 2 monk - this actually wins on feats, because fighter requires 3 for enhancements, don't need to take cleave/Gcl since its in KOTC - that's 5 feats saved, loss of level 6 monk doesn't matter because I'm not taking stances or zen archery since I can't be centered.

So, 16/2/2 = 14 feats.

last point - 3 attack + damage from divine favor partly compensates for the loss of 8 damage from fighter specs, and bladesworn transformation gives 2 addition strength on top of epic litany - and you can recon during that so might as well use it when its off timer.

Drop ranged, go pure. Even manyshot does worse dps than your melee now, and the game has nothing that requires you to stay ranged atm. Capstone gives 10 MP, more light damage, more CHA (meaning more STR), 4 more pala levels give better smite damage. Get heavy armor,(adamantine body) so you qualify for the stance and get 6 more str, change blitz to prr version. I'm seriously doubting that you gonna miss evasion with the MMR changes + uber saves + the 66 elemental resist I assume you have. You can pick haste boost from LD instead of kensei. I'm not sure if SWF dorf axe is more damage than thf falchion, but I'm guessing it is (30% attackspeed vs 30% gb damage and slightly worse crits after headman's chop is factored in - since gb damage doesn't crit I assume dorf axe wins). I know you have aesthetic issues with SWF, but that's a small step after dropping your icon :D.

Now, I'm doing just that as PDK if I don't ragedelete ddo the day this update hits. When you realize that I'm right don't post your build with the title Cetus: Supreme Bladeforged Paladin.

Yw.

[TheLegendOfAra]

True, but with U23, Holy Sword is becoming kinda awesome, and you only get 1 level 4 spell at 14. 15 Paladin gives you two, so you can have Zeal and Holy Sword.

Also I misread your first post, I thought you meant what the difference was between 14 and 15, not 16. 16 Paladin doesn't give you much besides maybe a few more SP/saves/damage to your smite evil.

Ah Alright. That's very good to hear then. I guess it's the 15/3/2 split for me then.


Drop ranged, go pure. Even manyshot does worse dps than your melee now, and the game has nothing that requires you to stay ranged atm. Capstone gives 10 MP, more light damage, more CHA (meaning more STR), 4 more pala levels give better smite damage. Get heavy armor,(adamantine body) so you qualify for the stance and get 6 more str, change blitz to prr version. I'm seriously doubting that you gonna miss evasion with the MMR changes + uber saves + the 66 elemental resist I assume you have. You can pick haste boost from LD instead of kensei. I'm not sure if SWF dorf axe is more damage than thf falchion, but I'm guessing it is (30% attackspeed vs 30% gb damage and slightly worse crits after headman's chop is factored in - since gb damage doesn't crit I assume dorf axe wins). I know you have aesthetic issues with SWF, but that's a small step after dropping your icon :D.

Now, I'm doing just that as PDK if I don't ragedelete ddo the day this update hits. When you realize that I'm right don't post your build with the title Cetus: Supreme Bladeforged Paladin.

Yw.

Are you seriously saying that a pure 20 Paladin will be the top melee DPS toon in the game when U23 hits?
Because that would honestly be the most depressing thing turbine has ever done to DDO.

[Zoda]

the most depressing thing turbine has ever done to DDO.

It's called U23. And that's the smallest problem with it. Besides, let me share a secret: paladin is just an icon ;) (and Zoda is still a barbarian!). Only exception is druid, being a dog is more than an icon.

EDIT: paladin will be the best ranged dps too, time to reroll some rangers.

[Eth]

Are you seriously saying that a pure 20 Paladin will be the top melee DPS toon in the game when U23 hits?
Because that would honestly be the most depressing thing turbine has ever done to DDO.

For a rough impression what pure pally DPS looks like on lamma:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsDjn-nwjQE

Sadly Holy Retribution was still bugged so I could only use exalted smite 11 times instead of 41 times per rest :D
...and selfheals were terrible because MRR is bugged.

Also the defense is amazing. 174 PRR are 63% damage reduction. Before that 30DR Epic (or 60) from TF armor. When Horoth hits you for 30 points of damage, you know you are tanky.

[Munkenmo]

I went with a 16 pally / 2 fighter / 2 monk - this actually wins on feats, because fighter requires 3 for enhancements, don't need to take cleave/Gcl since its in KOTC - that's 5 feats saved, loss of level 6 monk doesn't matter because I'm not taking stances or zen archery since I can't be centered.

So, 16/2/2 = 14 feats.

last point - 3 attack + damage from divine favor partly compensates for the loss of 8 damage from fighter specs, and bladesworn transformation gives 2 addition strength on top of epic litany - and you can recon during that so might as well use it when its off timer.

Have you considered a 15/3monk/2fighter? It's basically 5% movement speed for a loss of 1 level in the smite formula.

[Zoda]

Also the defense is amazing. 174 PRR are 63% damage reduction. Before that 30DR Epic (or 60) from TF armor. When Horoth hits you for 30 points of damage, you know you are tanky.

I commented this on your Youtube channel, but I'm not sure if you seen it, so I repeat here. PDK's Purple Dragon Focus enhancement procs when you crit and have Advancing Blows (treats it as activating an action boost, not sure if wai or not), that results in something that you can translate to stacking dr 15/-. I was already considering putting on a heavy armor on live for this combination in conjunction with the DR30/60 armor on live, but with the changes it's nobrainer. As PDK Horoth would only hit you for 15 :D

Last time I was using this combo was a few months ago on a monk life (probably U20... which update allowed tring to iconic first?), and I haven't checked if it still works like that, but I don't have any reason to assume that it got changed. The cross that pops up above your head and the boosting sound effect, and LD's boost orientation suggests that it's even wai...

[Eth]

...
I read that but I'm reluctant to TR out of human on lamma because I don't want to reflag anything ;)
But how does DR/- stack with DR/Epic?

[Zoda]

I read that but I'm reluctant to TR out of human on lamma because I don't want to reflag anything ;)
But how does DR/- stack with DR/Epic?

It provides 15 temporary hp every time you crit, given the crit profile of this build, and assuming that you spam all kinds of special attacks and have good doublestrike, that 15 tempotary hp should get refreshed in between 2 hits taken. Definitely against a single raidboss, but with just a simple displacement on it should be fairly reliable, on my PDK monk with displace/capped dodge/shadow fade it felt like straight dr 15/-.

[Eth]

It provides 15 temporary hp every time you crit, given the crit profile of this build, and assuming that you spam all kinds of special attacks and have good doublestrike, that 15 tempotary hp should get refreshed in between 2 hits taken. Definitely against a single raidboss, but with just a simple displacement on it should be fairly reliable, on my PDK monk with displace/capped dodge/shadow fade it felt like straight dr 15/-.

Oh, it provides temporary hitpoints. Understood now. PDK comes with fighter though, +1 LR heart required :(
(I'm not sold on a paladin split yet, capstone to stronk).

[ReaperAlexEU]

Oh, it provides temporary hitpoints. Understood now. PDK comes with fighter though, +1 LR heart required :(
(I'm not sold on a paladin split yet, capstone to stronk).

would you mind giving us a breakdown of your test paly's STR and CHA? seems there is a lot i could learn from this paly you threw together :)

[Zoda]

Oh, it provides temporary hitpoints. Understood now. PDK comes with fighter though, +1 LR heart required :(
(I'm not sold on a paladin split yet, capstone to stronk).

Agreed, I'll have to eat a +1 LR heart, but I'm doing pure PDK.

[Eth]

would you mind giving us a breakdown of your test paly's STR and CHA? seems there is a lot i could learn from this paly you threw together :)

Pretty straightforward. 16 Str, 16 Con, 16 Cha. All lvl ups in charisma.
Core feats: Empower Heal, Quicken, Improved Crit., Precision and/or PA, Overwhelming Crit., 3xTHF
Optional feats: Toughness + Epic Toughness, Force of Personality

44 points spend in KotC (pick up the capstone), Sacred Defender pick up the stance + first 2 tiers of improved stance (I went with +6 Str + 20% HP), Damage Boost + 1st tier heal amp. in Human tree.

[Nightmanis]

huh?

You told me a lot of things...most of it wasn't very memorable

If you were to take Zoda's advice of dropping ranged I would suggest 2 rogue over 2 monk. Obviously you're not hurting for feats, so picking up the outright better quick strike from rogue versus monk. Then the 2 fighter comes down to you wanting to keep the +3dc for stunning blow.

This just makes my theory craft of a 15 paladin 4 rogue 1 fighter daxes swf Axe of thunder build looks better and better.

[Wizza]

You know this is sad when Takllin can tell you, on teamspeak: "I've always told you that paladins were going to be the best DPS in DDO". **** it.

[Zoda]

You know this is sad when Takllin can tell you, on teamspeak: "I've always told you that paladins were going to be the best DPS in DDO". **** it.

Thanks for the warning, gonna skip logging on for a few weeks. We'll have to play DOTA on steamchat.

[Takllin]

You know this is sad when Takllin can tell you, on teamspeak: "I've always told you that paladins were going to be the best DPS in DDO". **** it.

Hahaha and you all know that I was always being sarcastic over the years and never thought or really wanted it to happen. I don't think they should be best melee DPS, but here we are :D


Thanks for the warning, gonna skip logging on for a few weeks. We'll have to play DOTA on steamchat.

Stay away for a few months then, might be good for you or else your gonna rage quit.

[Cetus]

Drop ranged, go pure. Even manyshot does worse dps than your melee now, and the game has nothing that requires you to stay ranged atm. Capstone gives 10 MP, more light damage, more CHA (meaning more STR), 4 more pala levels give better smite damage. Get heavy armor,(adamantine body) so you qualify for the stance and get 6 more str, change blitz to prr version. I'm seriously doubting that you gonna miss evasion with the MMR changes + uber saves + the 66 elemental resist I assume you have. You can pick haste boost from LD instead of kensei. I'm not sure if SWF dorf axe is more damage than thf falchion, but I'm guessing it is (30% attackspeed vs 30% gb damage and slightly worse crits after headman's chop is factored in - since gb damage doesn't crit I assume dorf axe wins). I know you have aesthetic issues with SWF, but that's a small step after dropping your icon :D.

Now, I'm doing just that as PDK if I don't ragedelete ddo the day this update hits. When you realize that I'm right don't post your build with the title Cetus: Supreme Bladeforged Paladin.

Yw.

What is it with this I'm right vs. You're right nonsense lol



Of course if we're going pure melee, pure pally will be better. But I still think having a ranged option is useful right now, but I may change my mind.

Also, TF dwarven axe threat range is terrible for smites. Falchion is better if you're going to twist endless turning and smiting from sentinel to make most use of your smites. Falchion will be 11-20 on a smite, your axe will be 15-20 on a smite (and smites can doublestrike). balance 4 extra threat and 30% glancing blow damage, and 11 PA damage (in my case with BF) vs. 19-20 multiplier and 30 % attack speed (this will also cost 2 destiny points for headmans, so wherever that comes from), and what - 6 axe damage for dorf?

I think they'll be quite close actually, so either option works.

In the end - Yes, for pure melee a pure paladin does seem to be near the top right now. Poor fighters, they'll probably get pidgeonholed into some stupid shield using class.

Sigh...

[ReaperAlexEU]

Pretty straightforward. 16 Str, 16 Con, 16 Cha. All lvl ups in charisma.
Core feats: Empower Heal, Quicken, Improved Crit., Precision and/or PA, Overwhelming Crit., 3xTHF
Optional feats: Toughness + Epic Toughness, Force of Personality

44 points spend in KotC (pick up the capstone), Sacred Defender pick up the stance + first 2 tiers of improved stance (I went with +6 Str + 20% HP), Damage Boost + 1st tier heal amp. in Human tree.

thanks :)

lemme see if i can break down the CHA

16 base
7 lvl
10 item
2 insight
1 excep
2 epic litany
2 youg pot
2 action points?
4 cap stone
5 tome
=51

what am i missing from that?

[Eth]

...

Only had a +8 item, but had a store pot running, so that equals out. In the video I had 52, might be that I took 3 charisma from enhancements. Rest looks correct.

[Zoda]

What is it with this I'm right vs. You're right nonsense lol


I remember a Cetus who used to tell me to reroll to pure kensai like 3 times a day... Look what these changes did to you haha, you don't even want to be "right" anymore! Not fun at all.

[Ambulance]

Hey Cetus,

that build looks freaking awesome. However I don't have monk right now, so I can't try it out for myself.

Do you think something similar would be doable without monk?

cheers
Amb

[Cetus]

I remember a Cetus who used to tell me to reroll to pure kensai like 3 times a day... Look what these changes did to you haha, you don't even want to be "right" anymore! Not fun at all.

Well yea...I "used" to tell you that lol

With new changes, I'll say new things =D

Anyway, I never care about being "right" - I care more about the evidence. And with these pally changes, you are completely right! (for now)

[Purkilius]

You know this is sad when Takllin can tell you, on teamspeak: "I've always told you that paladins were going to be the best DPS in DDO". **** it.

lmao :)

[Khalesh]

I am considering either 18/2 Pal/Mnk or pure 20 Pal.
Layout 1: Paladin 18 / Monk 2

Feats (without ED Feats)
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Bow Strength
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Critical: Slashing
Improved Critical: Ranged
Two Handed Fighting
Power Attack
Stunning Blow
Manyshot
Overwhelming Critical
Improved Two Handed Fighting

You get Cleave and Great Cleave from Enhancements (same in all the other scenarios below)

Pros:
Keep evasion
Keep ranged DPS

Con:
BaB not maxed (less of an issue in certain EDs)
No Paladin capstone
Lose last THF
Lower PRR/MRR

Layout 2: Paladin 20 (No ranged)

Feats (without ED Feats)
Adamantine Body
Power Attack
Stunning Blow
Two Handed Fighting
Improved Critical: Slashing
Improved Two Handed Fighting
Greater Two Handed Fighting
Overwhelming Critical
Quicken
Blinding Speed

Pros:
High PRR/MRR
Full THF line
Paladin Capstone
Full BaB (less of an issue in certain EDs)

Cons:
No evasion
No ranged DPS

Layout 3: Paladin 20 (With range)

Feats (without ED Feats)
Weapon Focus: Ranged
Power Attack
Bow Strength
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Improved Critical: Slashing
Improved Critical: Ranged
Two Handed Fighting
Manyshot
Overwhelming Critical

Pros:
Keep ranged DPS
Paladin capstone
Full BaB (less of an issue in certain EDs)

Cons:
Lose 2 THF Feats
No evasion
Lower PRR/MRR

To me layout 3 seems to be the less attractive. Thoughts on the others? Any other thoughts at this stage?

[Nodoze]

I am considering either 18/2 Pal/Mnk or pure 20 Pal.
...How do these compare (pros/cons) to the current 12F/6M/2P BladeForged split?

Besides Evasion I like Shadow Veil and hate to lose the Incorporeal mitigation.

[Cetus]

I put together a Pure paladin on lama (no ranged) - and it did phenomenally well.

Pure 20 Paladin Bladeforged:

IC: Slashing, Stunning Blow, PA, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Quicken, Adamantine Body, Completionist, Overwhelming Critical

Starting Stats: 18 Str / 18 Cha / 14 Con

Tier 3 Cleaves, KoTC Capstone, 25 PRR/MRR from defender tree, bladeforged tactics and power of the forge, haste boost from LD tree, damage boost from pally tree, harper 4% melee power.


Ended up right around 200 PRR and 100 MRR just like that - with an 83 str and a 50 cha in the end.

[Zoda]

I put together a Pure paladin on lama (no ranged) - and it did phenomenally well.

Pure 20 Paladin Bladeforged:

IC: Slashing, Stunning Blow, PA, THF, ITHF, GTHF, Quicken, Adamantine Body, Completionist, Overwhelming Critical

Starting Stats: 18 Str / 18 Cha / 14 Con

Tier 3 Cleaves, KoTC Capstone, 25 PRR/MRR from defender tree, bladeforged tactics and power of the forge, haste boost from LD tree, damage boost from pally tree, harper 4% melee power.


Ended up right around 200 PRR and 100 MRR just like that - with an 83 str and a 50 cha in the end.

The awkward moment when you try to make a better build than pure pally and you fail :D

[Eth]

Why not fleshie? **** robots :(

Tested yesterday on mine with MRR bug fixed - 425 devotion (including emp. heal), 5 heal amp enhancements (2 human, 3 KotC), 20% + 30% gear.
CSW hits anywhere between 390 and 500 on non-crit. Cocoon ticks typically 150-200.
LoH around 1600.

[EllisDee37]

That's a fair point. If you're going to have at least 11 paladin levels, paladin native healing is viable on a fleshie. (Particularly a human.)

Note that Cure Serious Wounds was essentially removed from the paladin spell book unless you go pure, since you don't get a third level 4 spell until 19.

[Nightmanis]

The awkward moment when you try to make a better build than pure pally and you fail :D

This really make me question how a pure fighter will fair. Obviously no where near as good but it wouldn't hurt to check.

[Nodoze]

That's a fair point. If you're going to have at least 11 paladin levels, paladin native healing is viable on a fleshie. (Particularly a human.)

Note that Cure Serious Wounds was essentially removed from the paladin spell book unless you go pure, since you don't get a third level 4 spell until 19.Half-Elves with Monk Dilettante may be interesting also from a Heal Amp perspective though Human or PDK likely better overall for a Fleshie.

Paladin self healing is getting very interesting again and the Healing Amp is a pretty good equalizer with with the higher Repair spells available on Blade Forged. When self healing the pure 20 Paladin BladeForged can have the SLA with Repair Critical (instead of Serious) as a backup though in a raid or scenarios where other healing sources are available the healing amp may be better overall. Personally I don't like relying on Cocoon because the healing stops when the 150 temp HPs go away though it is awesome when you can get the full effect (especially with Healing Amp). I will be very interested to see what hits live...

[Cetus]

Why not fleshie? **** robots :(

Tested yesterday on mine with MRR bug fixed - 425 devotion (including emp. heal), 5 heal amp enhancements (2 human, 3 KotC), 20% + 30% gear.
CSW hits anywhere between 390 and 500 on non-crit. Cocoon ticks typically 150-200.
LoH around 1600.

Bladeforged doesn't JUST give me healing =D

Double PA bonus for THF with PA line, +5 tactics, -10% slashing damage defense, BF immunities, uber damage boost, extra fortification...i think if AP work out, BF is still better.

[Zoda]

Why not fleshie? **** robots :(

Tested yesterday on mine with MRR bug fixed - 425 devotion (including emp. heal), 5 heal amp enhancements (2 human, 3 KotC), 20% + 30% gear.
CSW hits anywhere between 390 and 500 on non-crit. Cocoon ticks typically 150-200.
LoH around 1600.

His favorite movie is RoboCop and his real name is Murphy, that sums it up :p

[Nodoze]

This really make me question how a pure fighter will fair. Obviously no where near as good but it wouldn't hurt to check.I will be interested to see what splits folk come up with vs what is lost by not going pure 20, 18, etc. For example, if going for Tanking and trying to lock down the boss splashing Fighter 2 would give 3 feats (including Tower Shield) and one could maybe pick up some extra hate but I haven't studied the new stuff in flux enough to know yet what you lose... It will also be interesting to see how Monk stances with Evasion compare to heavy armor builds.

[Nodoze]

Bladeforged doesn't JUST give me healing =D

Double PA bonus for THF with PA line, +5 tactics, -10% slashing damage defense, BF immunities, uber damage boost, extra fortification...i think if AP work out, BF is still better.I definately want to see how a viable tactics build lays out. I may end up with 2 paladins to contrast/compare when it hits live (one BF with Tactics and one Fleshie to try S&B/doublestrike/Hamp). My BF is likely ready to go though my Fleshie is currently farming fate points and ePLs and may lag awhile...

[Cetus]

His favorite movie is RoboCop and his real name is Murphy, that sums it up :p

Terrible

[the_one_dwarfforged]

with the introduction of harper and know the angles, does pure fighter suddenly become a lot more appealing?

19% double strike from cores is (i think?) roughly equal to 10% double strike and 10 mp.

int roughly takes the place of charisma and gives you more skill point (and more repair power if you pay to be a bf).

+5 tactics and action boosts from kensei that pally cant replace. frees up points from haste boost in ld.

not required to be good, minor but true...

power surge + keen edge + icon > holy sword?

[maddong]

So assuming pure paladin can I hear some more on pdk vs bf?

[Grailhawk]

19% double strike from cores is (i think?) roughly equal to 10% double strike and 10 mp.


No 1.19 vs 1.21 (1.1*1.1=1.21) its close but Zeal + PLD Capstone is better.




power surge + keen edge + icon > holy sword?

Not even close.

Holy sword needs to be dropped down to 19-20/x+1 or loose the +1 Threat, to get things into the same ball park.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

No 1.19 vs 1.21 (1.1*1.1=1.21) its close but Zeal + PLD Capstone is better.



Not even close.

Holy sword needs to be dropped down to 19-20/x+1 or loose the +1 Threat, to get things into the same ball park.

2 things:

1) roughly

2) icon

thanks for doing my homework though.

[Grailhawk]

2 things:

1) roughly

2) icon

thanks for doing my homework though.

Is Icon >= Keen Edge in your assessment?

Don't get me wrong pure 20 Fighter is a good build buts its not on the list of Optimal builds, 20 Paladin is.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Is Icon >= Keen Edge in your assessment?

Don't get me wrong pure 20 Fighter is a good build buts its not on the list of Optimal builds, 20 Paladin is.

mathematically keen edge is superior, but icon has intangibles...

if its not then i think its pretty close. would like to see if its allure is enough to reconvert the new uberestest pally.

[Zoda]

Holy sword needs to be dropped down to 19-20/x+1 or loose the +1 Threat, to get things into the same ball park.

Easiest balance on holy sword would be to make it Holy Sword. Not Holy Falchion, Holy Khopesh and Holy Longbow. Every similar ability in the game is balanced by it's restriction to weapon types (staff specialization, assassin dagger thing etc), holy sword has no such restrictions. It'd be interesting to see if people would go eSOS pally over falchion kensai. An ability that has no equally powerful alternative is the definition of OP in my book.

[Pescha]

Honestly i still think cetus will do better...

[Zer0AcmE]

Honestly i still think cetus will do better...

Me too...

Currently playing TWF/Khopesh version (Dual Thunderforge for additional slots and damage types) and I simply plow over anything in my path.

27% Dodge (Maxed)
40% Double Strike (Standing, no boosts required)
62 PRR (Nothing special but every bit helps)

Considering going Bastard Swords, with a Twist of Fate swap and EE First Blood in offhand standing Double Strike would go to 50%. Not sure the extra 10% is worth the diff. between x3 and x2 crit. multi. though.

[Purkilius]

Bladeforged doesn't JUST give me healing =D

Double PA bonus for THF with PA line, +5 tactics, -10% slashing damage defense, BF immunities, uber damage boost, extra fortification...i think if AP work out, BF is still better.

and 3 mass repair spells if you go Pally...

[Grailhawk]

40% Double Strike (Standing, no boosts required)

You mind breaking that down for me?

9 PL
2 Strike with No though
5 PTWF
6-12 Gear?
10 Wind Stance?
3 Artifact?

[Zer0AcmE]

You mind breaking that down for me?

9 PL
2 Strike with No though
5 PTWF
6-12 Gear?
10 Wind Stance?
3 Artifact?

Here you go:

10 Wind Stance
5 Perfect Two Weapon Fighting
8 Item [Skirmisher's Bracers]
9 Double Strike Past Life x3
3 Twist of Fate [Hail of Blows]
3 Artifact [Black Dragon Set]
2 Kensi [Core - Strike with No Thought]
_____________
40 Total

3 Twist of Fate [Running with the Wind]
15 EE First Blood [Replaces Skirmisher's Bracers]
_____________
50 Total

[LotM]

I know it must be somewhere, but all I se in the latest build on first page is the Haste Guard from Black Dragon armor? Is that it for attack speed?

[Zer0AcmE]

I know it must be somewhere, but all I se in the latest build on first page is the Haste Guard from Black Dragon armor? Is that it for attack speed?

One would assume haste pots, haste clickies, etc...

[LotM]

One would assume haste pots, haste clickies, etc...

Sounds extremely tedious.

[Pescha]

I know it must be somewhere, but all I se in the latest build on first page is the Haste Guard from Black Dragon armor? Is that it for attack speed?

Goatskin boots ?

[Takllin]

Goatskin boots ?

Aye that's where it is.

[Eth]

Aye that's where it is.
OP disagrees though:
Boots: Ogre Power +10 Boots of False Life +50

Hitting reconstruct every 30 seconds also equals permahaste ;)

[Takllin]

OP disagrees though:
Boots: Ogre Power +10 Boots of False Life +50

Hitting reconstruct every 30 seconds also equals permahaste ;)

Ahhh I am mistaken then. I know at one point he was using Goatskin Boots.

Also I thought the speed boost was only 15 seconds? Haven't used Recon in a while though.

[depositbox]

30 seconds.

from wiki:
granting it an increase in attack speed for a short time (30 seconds).
Note: The attack speed granted by this spell stacks with Haste.

[Pescha]

By the way, is it worth taking poison exploit/deadly exploit ?

ps. Of course for Boss fights only

[Takllin]

By the way, is it worth taking poison exploit/deadly exploit ?

ps. Of course for Boss fights only

When I last played this build it stacked up to an extra 100 damage a tick so Id say so.

[Pescha]

When I last played this build it stacked up to an extra 100 damage a tick so Id say so.

Not to mention being increased by first degree burns.

[adrian69]

I just got around to building my 1st Cetus on my 11th life; I lack 3 classes toward completionist. So, questions are that I didn't get in GoFs feat. Are all the feats listed as best choices? If not, I'll maul back over planner to see where I screwed up again.

When I take Divine Might and the extra turns I am not receiving any uses for Divine Might. Is this something I am missing from EDs to obtain?

Could you please help me out with these questions? I really like the build.

[Takllin]

I just got around to building my 1st Cetus on my 11th life; I lack 3 classes toward completionist. So, questions are that I didn't get in GoFs feat. Are all the feats listed as best choices? If not, I'll maul back over planner to see where I screwed up again.

When I take Divine Might and the extra turns I am not receiving any uses for Divine Might. Is this something I am missing from EDs to obtain?

Could you please help me out with these questions? I really like the build.

The feats are listed as best choices.

You need to twist Bane of Undeath from the Divine Crusader ED. It is a tier one ability. It has been asked/answered a few different times by posters in this thread.

[adrian69]

The feats are listed as best choices.

You need to twist Bane of Undeath from the Divine Crusader ED. It is a tier one ability. It has been asked/answered a few different times by posters in this thread.

Thanks for taking the time to clear this up for me. I just wanted to make sure what I read was what it meant. I've played a FvS life, but haven't played a paladin or cleric, yet. This is the first time I've MC'd pally levels in to my build as well.

[Crann]

Thanks for taking the time to clear this up for me. I just wanted to make sure what I read was what it meant. I've played a FvS life, but haven't played a paladin or cleric, yet. This is the first time I've MC'd pally levels in to my build as well.

You would need 4 Pally levels to get the Turn Undead feat to power your Divine Mights if you didn't use the Twist of Fate.

[Crann]

Anyone running this changing their build post U23?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Anyone running this changing their build post U23?

yes to some/any heavy armor build because i like that flavor better, and have always disliked the low prr that this build brings to the table.

more importantly its time to change race.

[Spoonwelder]

Anyone running this changing their build post U23?
Yup - switched to https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448808-Tempal-of-the-Dog-TWF-Pal12-Ra3-Fi2

Only done to level 23 but so far it is very good - I don't have comparatives yet so I can't see if it is stronger than other builds but it already feels stronger than the Cetus aaaaand has better self heals.

[JOTMON]

Yup - switched to https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/448808-Tempal-of-the-Dog-TWF-Pal12-Ra3-Fi2

Only done to level 23 but so far it is very good - I don't have comparatives yet so I can't see if it is stronger than other builds but it already feels stronger than the Cetus aaaaand has better self heals.

Even Cetus has moved on from this build.
Don't know why this thread is even still going.

Cetus should end this thread and post his Paladin one so we can criticize him on that one... or just criticize him for being a paladin.. or just criticize him for being Cetus.. :)

[Zer0AcmE]

Anyone running this changing their build post U23?

Yep, still running 12 Fighter/6 Monk/2 Paladin, not sure why everyone is in a race to give up on the build. I personally prefer Miss Chance to higher PR. I mean why would I give up:

1200+ HP
30% Dodge (75% Miss Chance with Shadow Veil and Displacement Clickies)
106 PR
30%/40% Standing Double Strike (Depending on Stance)
Evasion (85 Reflex, no fail on 1)
80+ Stunning Blow
700+ non-critical Recon

And this is coming from someone that played a Paladin for a VERY LONG time before this build.

[Arkitektonik]

Cetus should end this thread and post his Paladin one so we can criticize him on that one... or just criticize him for being a paladin.. or just criticize him for being Cetus.. :)

Hah, those haters are just going to hate!

I'd appreciate seeing the Paladin build.

[adrian69]

Anyone running this changing their build post U23?

Only reason for 6 monk is shadow fade, and incorpibility comes on a piece or two of gear at end game now. I felt at least 4 levels of pally is more well rounded, makes me immune to fears, saves me a twist slot, among other things.

I went started stat wise (all +5 tomes, except for charisma) 17 str 14 dex 16 con 8 int 6 wis and 14 chr. really wanted to go 13 dex and 17 con, but it mess up the feat selection to much with having to take TWF line after Level 11. I ran two levels with a falchion and decided to see how TWF really did, and I can say either way is viable. In fact, I may even go back to THF after a while, or may not.

I took levels and feats in this order, working off memory though.

1. Paladin- Bastard Sword (Reg Feat)
2. Paladin
3. Monk- TWF (monk) PBS (Reg Feat)
4. Monk- Power Attack (monk)
5 Ftr- Weapon Focus: Slashing (ftr feat)
6 Ftr- Adept of forms (Reg Feat) Cleave (Ftr feat)
7 Ftr-
8 Ftr- Great Cleave (Ftr Feat)
9 Ftr- IC: Slash (Reg Feat)
10 Ftr- Weapon Specialization: Slashing (Ftr)
11 Ftr
12 Ftr- Master of Forms (Reg Feat) Improved TWF (Ftr feat)
13 Ftr
14 Ftr- Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing (Ftr Feat)
15 Paladin Greater TWF (Reg Feat)
16 Ftr- Rapid Shot (Ftr Feat)
17 Paladin
18 Paladin Many Shot
19 Paladin
20 Paladin
21 Overwhelming Crit
24 GMOFs or Quicken
26 Perfect TWF
27 Perma Haste if no GMOF taken
28 not decided.

Bastard sword can be switched for toughness I guess. I am struggling over GMoFs and Quicken. I know quicken works where it counts soloing EE, so I'll more then likely take it. All levels ups in strength. I wanted manyshot, but If someone wanted a pure melee, you could remove the 3 ranged feats, bump gmof up to lvl 18, take quicken for sure, and have two feats to play with.

Anyway, I still may go 4 monk with my last two levels.

Anyway, this is my Cetus BF route.

Nice build so far. I had to play one

[Krelar]

Hah, those haters are just going to hate!

I'd appreciate seeing the Paladin build.

You can see it in action here. (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/449301-U23-EE-Vol-solo-beatdown-Pure-Paladin)

based on the hotbars and buff bars.

feats:

thf
ithf
gthf
power attack
improved critical slash
quicken
stunning blow
overwhelming critical (I'm assuming)
one more epic feat

enhancements:

I see him use a rage effect at one point so no defender stance. Probably most points in KoTC and racial tree.

Running in legendary dreadnought
twists: unsure

[Zer0AcmE]

Only reason for 6 monk is shadow fade, and incorpibility comes on a piece or two of gear at end game now. I felt at least 4 levels of pally is more well rounded, makes me immune to fears, saves me a twist slot, among other things.

I went started stat wise (all +5 tomes, except for charisma) 17 str 14 dex 16 con 8 int 6 wis and 14 chr. really wanted to go 13 dex and 17 con, but it mess up the feat selection to much with having to take TWF line after Level 11. I ran two levels with a falchion and decided to see how TWF really did, and I can say either way is viable. In fact, I may even go back to THF after a while, or may not.

I took levels and feats in this order, working off memory though.

1. Paladin- Bastard Sword (Reg Feat)
2. Paladin
3. Monk- TWF (monk) PBS (Reg Feat)
4. Monk- Power Attack (monk)
5 Ftr- Weapon Focus: Slashing (ftr feat)
6 Ftr- Adept of forms (Reg Feat) Cleave (Ftr feat)
7 Ftr-
8 Ftr- Great Cleave (Ftr Feat)
9 Ftr- IC: Slash (Reg Feat)
10 Ftr- Weapon Specialization: Slashing (Ftr)
11 Ftr
12 Ftr- Master of Forms (Reg Feat) Improved TWF (Ftr feat)
13 Ftr
14 Ftr- Greater Weapon Focus: Slashing (Ftr Feat)
15 Paladin Greater TWF (Reg Feat)
16 Ftr- Rapid Shot (Ftr Feat)
17 Paladin
18 Paladin Many Shot
19 Paladin
20 Paladin
21 Overwhelming Crit
24 GMOFs or Quicken
26 Perfect TWF
27 Perma Haste if no GMOF taken
28 not decided.

Bastard sword can be switched for toughness I guess. I am struggling over GMoFs and Quicken. I know quicken works where it counts soloing EE, so I'll more then likely take it. All levels ups in strength. I wanted manyshot, but If someone wanted a pure melee, you could remove the 3 ranged feats, bump gmof up to lvl 18, take quicken for sure, and have two feats to play with.

Anyway, I still may go 4 monk with my last two levels.

Anyway, this is my Cetus BF route.

Nice build so far. I had to play one

I thought the same thing, went 12/4/4, changed to 12/6/2 and it was a noticeable difference, Dusk (10% Concealment) + Paladin Fear immunity < Shadow Veil (25% concealment) and slotted Fear augment, also

Also you save feats with 6 Monk, gain +1 to all saves, +5% movement bonus and gives you access to Sting of the Ninja, but to each their own.

[Spoonwelder]

Well I would summarize it as
Cetus build gets you Power Surge +4dmg+4tactics- and centered weapons for Dance of Flowers (1.5W) - mountain stance for +1 crit range some AC/PRR/HP - Evasion

Paladin builds - Zeal + straight scaling 10% more DPS - Holy Sword =+1W/+1Critrange/1crit mult to any weapons opens a twist slot or two (Dance/Bane) - smites are actually pretty good DPS add as well - allows heavy armor for higher PRR/MRR

So I see Holy Sword as a push for Dance of Flowers and Mountain stance (DPS) + Power Surge is close to a push with Sacred Strength which leaves you with Zeal plus MRR vs. Evasion and some Mountain stance bonuses.

IMO that swings the balance to Pally - the Cetus build is still very strong but is no longer the current FOTM....and hasn't been since Swash came out.

[adrian69]

I thought the same thing, went 12/4/4, changed to 12/6/2 and it was a noticeable difference, Dusk (10% Concealment) + Paladin Fear immunity < Shadow Veil (25% concealment) and slotted Fear augment, also

Also you save feats with 6 Monk, gain +1 to all saves, +5% movement bonus and gives you access to Sting of the Ninja, but to each their own.

I'll probably end up trying it out all three ways. However, going 4/4 still give access to SotN and +1 to saves isn't that huge. 3 Pally also gets immunity to all types of disease. Not sure how big that is either.

The big differences one has to ask themselves is if they want Shadow Fade (+25% incorpability for 1 minute, usable often to those who don't know-it is a worth while ability and I will never say it's not) and have one extra feat in trade for 10+ PRR/MRR (up to 25), Divine Might without having to twist for it, and higher divine grace saves when the 3 + (2 x (charisma mod)) system goes into affect either later in a U23 patch or hopefully U24.

In honesty, I just wanted to be slightly different.

[Pescha]

Yep, still running 12 Fighter/6 Monk/2 Paladin, not sure why everyone is in a race to give up on the build. I personally prefer Miss Chance to higher PR. I mean why would I give up:

1200+ HP
30% Dodge (75% Miss Chance with Shadow Veil and Displacement Clickies)
106 PR
30%/40% Standing Double Strike (Depending on Stance)
Evasion (85 Reflex, no fail on 1)
80+ Stunning Blow
700+ non-critical Recon

And this is coming from someone that played a Paladin for a VERY LONG time before this build.

Yea, screw paladins i want to be a real warrior ;)

[goodspeed]

Yep, still running 12 Fighter/6 Monk/2 Paladin, not sure why everyone is in a race to give up on the build. I personally prefer Miss Chance to higher PR. I mean why would I give up:

1200+ HP
30% Dodge (75% Miss Chance with Shadow Veil and Displacement Clickies)
106 PR
30%/40% Standing Double Strike (Depending on Stance)
Evasion (85 Reflex, no fail on 1)
80+ Stunning Blow
700+ non-critical Recon

And this is coming from someone that played a Paladin for a VERY LONG time before this build.

Ya I don't get it. Even with 130 or so prr you jump through a trap and take 3 quick hits of say 55 physical dmg. With evasion unless ur really **** unlucky (or didn't take the feat) it's no dmg at all. The dmg ive been able to get up to about the same, even mixing in a manyshot. But not without the cost of defenses and that nice extra 200 hp cushion.

Until a build is able to reliably get mrr and prr to where 100's become 10's and ac works, dodge, and clickables for miss chance is where its at. I don't even know why someone would choose the prr version instead of the dodge on masters blitz.

[moo_cow]

I don't even know why someone would choose the prr version instead of the dodge on masters blitz.

Because dodge is capped at 25-30% for most people. Masters blitz doesn't take you past your cap.

[Eth]

I don't even know why someone would choose the prr version instead of the dodge on masters blitz.

Dodge-cap. I don't know anyone who uses the dodge version. 30 free PRR versus nothing.

[goodspeed]

Dodge-cap. I don't know anyone who uses the dodge version. 30 free PRR versus nothing.

Ya I recently just found that out. I thought it was still the old 50 dodge that scaled past cap. Couldn't figure how a boss was getting lucky more then once or twice swinging until I randomly look at my char sheet and found it capped at 28. I felt so jipped.

[Eth]

Ya I recently just found that out. I thought it was still the old 50 dodge that scaled past cap.
I've been using blitz since it came out. The dodge never went past the dodge cap.

[Takllin]

I've been using blitz since it came out. The dodge never went past the dodge cap.

This. Never went past dodge cap.

[goodspeed]

I've been using blitz since it came out. The dodge never went past the dodge cap.

I could have sworn it bypassed it and went to 50 previously. All that time, that ability was screwn me without knowing. Course then again everything died so **** fast nothing was really swinging to begin with.

[Cetus]

Ya I recently just found that out. I thought it was still the old 50 dodge that scaled past cap. Couldn't figure how a boss was getting lucky more then once or twice swinging until I randomly look at my char sheet and found it capped at 28. I felt so jipped.

Lol

[Nodoze]

LolCetus, Have you decided on what changes you are going with Post 23?

[Cetus]

Cetus, Have you decided on what changes you are going with Post 23?

Changes to what?

[Nodoze]

Changes to what?To the main build you are running.

IIUC, the last update to this build was 07-30-2014 and was interested in knowing if this is still the build/gear you are running and recommend or if you had made changes.

[Makkuroi]

To the main build you are running.

IIUC, the last update to this build was 07-30-2014 and was interested in knowing if this is still the build/gear you are running and recommend or if you had made changes.

He is probably running 15 pally now ;)

[Kawai]

Cetus, Have you decided on what changes you are going with Post 23?


To the main build you are running.
IIUC, the last update to this build was 07-30-2014 and was interested in knowing if this is still the build/gear you are running and recommend or if you had made changes.


He is probably running 15 pally now ;)

ooooo the sponges grow restless...
speak, Cleetus, oh sage one... what does de Lemming Wrangler comand?

"...drink... yesssss. drink Kool-Aid... yessssssssss"
/sarcasm off
(well, not really, sum targets just 2ez.)


hrmmm... suddenly? i totally feel like Taco Bell Supreme :)