Paradigm Shift : how we are looking at Epic Reincarnation

[Glin]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

[Livmo]

Thank you for these details and Happy Friday!

[karl_k0ch]

This sounds interesting and doesn't ring any alarm bells. Looking forward to it.

[redspecter23]

So far it sounds promising. I like the option of either TR'ing to 20 to get an epic past life or TR'ing right back to 1 to get heroic and epic at once. Pricing and in game availability of the appropriate hearts (or whatever item is required) will need to be known for a more accurate idea.

The retention of destiny xp is nice to have confirmed.

I'm a bit confused about the sphere xp. As long as I'm in the appropriate sphere I gain progress toward some sort of goal, which will then allow me to epic TR with a past life related to that goal I achieved? It's not necessarily tied into any specific destiny, but to spheres?

[Gratch]

So if the details are next week does that mean we shouldn't ask for them now? :)

So we're now getting epic past "destiny sphere" feats instead of epic past "individual destiny" feats? Or did I misread? Do they stack 3x max as well? Are there active feats once you have epic tr'ed? If we no longer lose ED XP, how are we releveling ED's? Or are we leveling TBD's spheroidal shaped paths?

Oh well. Please make sure to include your ideas on some of the new passive (and active takable epic ED feats if those exist) so we can see carrots before falling into the WhatYouHaveToDo details. Also the epic completionist carrot and whether it involves a guaranteed gaming session at the next genCon run by producerRowan featuring Patrick Stewart, Vin Diesel and Patrick Rothfuss as your party.

[ProducerRowan]

Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie.

[dlsidhe]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

Okay, that's what I like to hear. I'd be willing to level 20-28 again, not so much 1-20. That would actually encourage me to eTR Nae a couple times if there was no 1-20 grind. I temporarily approve pending details.

[Silverleafeon]

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/250/d/8/cool_thumbs_up_five_by_crystal_vaporeon-d6ldolk.jpg



Just one question.
What if I'm an Iconic and want an Iconic and Epic past life?

[Vargouille]

I'm a bit confused about the sphere xp.

Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

[EllisDee37]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~EPerfect.

[Gratch]

Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie.

So you'll be running the game with MajMal in a bald cap playing the part of Patrick Stewart? Your other party member being Tom Brady and MajMal wishing he wasn't wearing a bald cap and talking with a fakey British accent in front of Tom Brady? Got ya.

Tom was looking a bit peeved at his current flubceivers yesterday... maybe he's ready to go from NFL QB to D&D gamer...

On Topic: Primal Epic Active Past Life Feat: Throw like Tom: Your next thrower attack automatically hits and criticals with a +10W additive and +2 crit mult. If the target does not die you, enter a rage and receive the effects of Primal Scream.

[Teh_Troll]

This idea gets Teh_Troll's seal of approval.

More details please, sounds good so far.

[EllisDee37]

For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.I love the new direction; Glin's description sounds like a tsunami of win.

The one doubt I have is that it sort of sounds like epic TR will be a finite system, which contrasts with heroic's TR's infinite system. The benefits from heroic TR are finite, sure, but even a triple completionist can keep doing heroic TRs just for the fun of leveling if that's what they're into.

Best I can tell, in this new proposal you:

a) Earn points from leveling destinies
b) NEVER lose destiny xp
c) SPEND points doing an epic TR

Which means that hypthetical OCD guy who already has maxed out every single destiny gets "x" points when this goes live. That "x" would be the forever maximum, can never be increased number of points, right? And that "x" number of points decreases each time he epic TRs, and can never be replenished. When he uses up his last point doing however many epic TRs, he can never epic TR again?

EDIT:

If this is intentional design to limit the epic past life feats, I see real value in such a "hard choices" setup. Like, say, there are 5 awesome primal past life feats but you can only take 3 feats from any given sphere because there's only enough points available for 3 epic TRs from any one sphere. I'm totally on board if that's the basic idea. Gotta love hard choices.

I'd just like to be able to keep TRing anyway even if there's no additional benefit, like how you can with heroic TR. Right at this moment this isn't a huge concern for me; just a general feeling of preferring open-ended vs closed systems.

[Glin]

Just one question.
What if I'm an Iconic and want an Iconic and Epic past life?

Not at the same time. (which is an answer that surely leads to more questions)
We will have more on that when we go over the entire Reincarnation system... soon.
Iconics will be able to gain the Epic PL, unlike the previous proposal.

[Silverleafeon]

A new word for Fawn:

par·a·digm
/?par??d?m/
noun
noun: paradigm;?plural noun: paradigms

1. technical
a typical example or pattern of something; a model.
"there is a new paradigm for public art in this country"
synonyms: model, pattern, example, exemplar, template, standard, prototype, archetype More





Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Sounds great, I like it.


Hmm...examples

Well I love the new epic spell feats: Ruin and Hellball.
I love SLAs (even though you folks are smart enough to know how powerful they are).

Divines would like another light / healing SLA.

Cocoon is everyone's favorite twist, perhaps as a PL version, with decreased cooldown?

Two more Twist slots would be nice ~ even in limited versions of tier one only.

Evasion is sacred.

[Qhualor]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

There is absolutely nothing about this I have a problem with. Keep this direction going and overall most players shouldn't be upset with this proposed system.

[Silverleafeon]

Not at the same time. (which is an answer that surely leads to more questions)
We will have more on that when we go over the entire Reincarnation system... soon.
Iconics will be able to gain the Epic PL, unlike the previous proposal.

I can live with that.
Gives Iconics more lasting value.

Please continue slowly bringing one or more iconics out each year, thank you.

[Bolo_Grubb]

I am liking the sounds of this. Doing level2 20-28, while a ton of xp will still allow me to run with guildies and friends that are in that range and use most of my nice gear. I could see doing a few of these depending on the epic past lives

[Silverleafeon]

This idea gets Teh_Troll's seal of approval.

More details please, sounds good so far.

The Troll has spoken; all hail The Troll...

[samthedagger]

I really like what I am hearing and I can't wait to hear more!

[Drwaz99]

Certainly looks promising! Hopefully the shift from "Power from Pain" will make it's way into more aspects of the game. I personally never liked nor understood fully the philosophy that a game should be painful for you to have meaningful progress. I am all for rewarding playing more (supporting the game) as long as it's balanced to not unfairly punish those you can only play casually.

[Silverleafeon]

I really, really like the fact you are using spheres.
This allows an infinite number of past lives to offer as desired,
and can be increased later on.

It also makes leveling up easier as a sphere has much greater choices.

Psionic sphere within the next few years please?

[dlsidhe]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Divine Ideas:

+20 Light, Positive, Negative, and Fire spellpower.

SLA Selector: One of Cure Light Wounds, Shield, Nimbus of Light, Divine Favor, Mass Aid

Weapons are ghost touch, metalline, and bypass alignment DR.

15% healing amplification.

+20 light resistance.

Melee:

Permanent +1W damage

5% doublestrike and doubleshot.

+4 to tactical DCs

+4 SA die

Evasion

Arcane:

+2 to all DCs

+10 USP

SLA selector: Magic Missile, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Acid Spray, Niac's Cold Ray, Necrotic Grasp, Blur, Nightshield

+20 to Fire, Cold, Electric, and Acid Spellpower

+20 Force spellpwer

Primal:

Two-Weapon Training (grants all three feats)

Two-Handed Training (grants three feats)

+10 inherent elemental resists

Eternal Rage (extends rage by 200%)

+20 Cold, Fire, Electric, and Positive spellpower

+1W when unarmed, in animal form, or dual-wielding.

Greater Augmented Summoning (summons get +8 to all stats)

[Grailhawk]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Feat that grants you an extra tier one twist from any of the Sphere Destinies.

[danotmano1998]

Very much appreciated.

Thanks for taking our concerns into account and shifting things into a more enjoyable system.
+1 to you all!

[Glin]

A new word for Fawn:

par·a·digm
/?par??d?m/
noun
noun: paradigm;?plural noun: paradigms

1. technical
a typical example or pattern of something; a model.
"there is a new paradigm for public art in this country"
synonyms: model, pattern, example, exemplar, template, standard, prototype, archetype More


A shift in such paradigm is when something you thought to be true is actually false... at least for my intended usage. We thought the world was flat, then we learned it is round. Or... we thought the Epic loop had to take you to Lv 1 and at great cost (and there were valid design reasons to do so). When that limitation was lifted a new pattern emerged.

[Qhualor]

Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Any thoughts on heroic past lives? Some aren't even worth the effort to TR for them and considered pretty meh. They could really use a pass.

[Gratch]

Not at the same time. (which is an answer that surely leads to more questions)
We will have more on that when we go over the entire Reincarnation system... soon.
Iconics will be able to gain the Epic PL, unlike the previous proposal.

Weird. I would have thought you'd treat iconics for TR purposes like a heroic class except that it gets to level 15 XP on the first life. Any TR's into iconics start at 1. Hence an Iconic TR would be similar to a Wizard TR and you could combine it with an epic TR as listed in your examples. Not sure why Iconics should care about epic stuff.

[Missing_Minds]

This sounds interesting and doesn't ring any alarm bells. Looking forward to it.

Agreed, but that is also why it has me worried.

[Candela90]

Well Id love it if it was 20+ only Epic Tr... not from 1-20 again - bcs 1-20 would feel as if all ppl who made 1-20 lifes before wasted time bcs they have to do it again.

Anyway I like the Idea. Some Past Lifes Id like to see:

Divine Sphere:
+20 Light Spell Power and 3% more critic with those
+15 PPR
+20 Positive Spell Power and 3% more critic with those

Arcane Sphere:
+2 DC to all spells
+10 Universal Power and 1% crit for all spells
+2 Spell Pen

Primal:
+ 2 Evocation and Conjuration and Transmutation DC
+10 stackable resistances to all elementals
+10% doublestrike with melee weapons and 10% doubleshot

Martial:
+2 Tactical DC
+5% dodge
+2d6 sneak attack


Completionist: You gain +2 stackable to all ability scores, +1 DC to all Tactical DCs and Spells, you also gain evasion feat.

That would be cool :D

But also Id like those to be stackable only ONCE - doing 11-12 Past Lifes is enough. Certainly :P.

[PermaBanned]

Wow... You... Listened! Thank you!

•Having an option between a partial ETR back to 20, or a total ETR back to 1? Brilliant!

•Grandfathering in some credit for those of us who've done the effort already? Brilliant!

•Making good on the initial proclamation of "no loss of Destiny xp upon Reincarnation." Brilliant!

•One obvious fail however: the DooOoOOOooM!1!!11!!! threaders may have to clock some OT tying this to the game's demise... (although I have faith they'll certainly try!)

[dlsidhe]

A shift in such paradigm is when something you thought to be true is actually false... at least for my intended usage. We thought the world was flat, then we learned it is round. Or... we thought the Epic loop had to take you to Lv 1 and at great cost (and there were valid design reasons to do so). When that limitation was lifted a new pattern emerged.

In grad school, I had to write a lengthy paper on whether the field of information science was in the midst of a paradigm shift based on a metadata analysis of scholarly publications...an information science analysis of information science analysis. Xzibit really needed to have made an appearance in that paper - "Yo dawg, I heard you were looking for a paradigm shift in information science analyzing metadata in papers, so we used the metadata in your metadata so you could shift your paradigm while writing your paper about papers."

[Charononus]

DoooOOOOOooooMMMM meter falling.

[AtomicMew]

As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Thanks for the update. With regard to tying past lives to spheres, this is potentially very worrying for completionists.

Epic completionist should not be invalidated every update by simply adding an a single past life feat available in a sphere. If you want people to grind out more past lives to maintain completionist, please at least take the time to add a new class (or destiny) as has been the status quo since the implementation of completionist.

Please DO NOT use this as an opportunity to easily increase the amount of grind as time goes on for completionist toons.

[Glin]

Weird. I would have thought you'd treat iconics for TR purposes like a heroic class except that it gets to level 15 XP on the first life. Any TR's into iconics start at 1. Hence an Iconic TR would be similar to a Wizard TR and you could combine it with an epic TR as listed in your examples. Not sure why Iconics should care about epic stuff.

Yup. Iconics get a whole section on how they fit into TR.
Reincarnation and Iconics is pretty straight forward but I think it makes more sense when the whole system is laid out.

[Memnir]

Sounds promising. Pity that I will wait until I see the final product before I drum up any kind of enthusiasm or cheering, however. Once bitten, and all that.


Well, that and it'll just be another form of reincarnation I'll likely utterly ignore. :) I'll be perfectly upfront with my dislike for the current TRing for personal reasons, so take my trepidation on a new form of it with a grain of salt.

[Teh_Troll]

DoooOOOOOooooMMMM meter falling.

Mine was too, then I saw the ranger devotion change.

It's d00000m-neutral.

[jskinner937]

Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Some ideas for past lives as well (based on a one-time available feat, unlike 3 in heroic TR and no PL feats become available until level 20):

This is a suggestion assuming they can stack upto 3 times. I tried to make each worthwhile to any type of build and also included a 1st time bonus (sort of like a free active past life feat) for each destiny).

Exalted Angel (passive): Stacking bonus of +10 to positive/negative spellpower and receive a Mass Heal SLA x5 per rest

Unyielding Sentinel (passive): Stacking 5 PRR and benefit from constant Death Ward

Grandmaster of Flowers (passive): +0.5W damage on unarmed and use of monk unarmed attack speed without monk levels

Legendary Dreadnaught (passive): +2DCs Tactical Feats and use any exotic or martial weapons without proficiency

Shadowdancer (passive): +2 bonus to all skills and receive Invisibilty toggle

Primal Avatar (passive): Stacking +2% dodge and dodge cap and gain permanent Rams Might

Shirardi Champion (passive): +5% doubleshot and grants you the feat shot on the run and the feat deflect arrows

Fury of the Wild (passive): Stacking 20HPs and gain stacking 10% movement speed

Fatesinger (passive): Stacking +10 Sonic Spellpower and Sonic Resistance and ability to Resurrect x1 per rest

Magistar (passive): Stacking +10 Force/Untyped Spellpower and stacking +10 spell resistance and permanent GH

Draconic Incarnation (passive): Stacking +10 Elemental Spellpower and +10 stacking Fire/Acid/Electric/Cold Resistance and permanent blur

[Silverleafeon]

Feat that grants you an extra tier one twist from any of the Sphere Destinies.

I love this idea.

Have one inside every sphere: divine, arcane, primal, martial, etc...

One extra twist from each sphere limits power, yet grants us something we greatly desire.

First past life = tier one twist slot
Second past life = tier two twist slot
Third past life = tier three twist slot


Everyone would want this.

I would give up Epic Completionist granting a twist slot for this to happen.

[PNGameAcct]

Thanks for the info. Much, much better than the original proposal.

[Silverleafeon]

A shift in such paradigm is when something you thought to be true is actually false... at least for my intended usage. We thought the world was flat, then we learned it is round. Or... we thought the Epic loop had to take you to Lv 1 and at great cost (and there were valid design reasons to do so). When that limitation was lifted a new pattern emerged.

Woot, I'm impressed.

[Yaga_Nub]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

Nope, still not good enough. I now what a griffon steed as well as rainbows and butterflies to follow me around. Add those and I'm onboard.

[Teh_Troll]

Can you change class and race on an epic TR or do you have to go all the way back to level 1 to do this?

Does an epic TR also reset your favor? Can't say it'd be unreasonable if it did, asking just to clarify.

[Systern]

As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.



Just trying to disect this and wrap my head around it. "As you level Epic Destinies"... "EPLs will stack up to 3 times"...

I have a 1st life Arti that is ultimately capped. Level 28. Maximum XP Achieved in every Destiny... How will I earn points on subsequent lives if Destiny XP isn't reset? Is there going to be an actual separate Points mechanic, or is this going to work like qualifying for the level 28 feats?
"Oh, you're at cap... you qualify for x,y, and z PLs.... Pick one and get to cap again to pick another..."
"This subsequent life, you amassed 6.7 million XP playing in Shiradi on your Artificer, that translates to Eleventy-One PL Points for the Primal Sphere... Purchase one of the following: a, b, c. Remaining Points will be lost upon Reincarnation." (Note: This will stink for off-destiny PLs. GRINDING OFF-DESTINIES IS NOT FUN.)


As I side note... I really hope that all these will just need a True Druidic Heart of Wood, and the option we pick when talking to Kruz or the Fatespinner determines the type of TR. I'd really hate to see a "Truer Druidic Heart of Wood" for the level 20 ETR, and a "Truest Druidic Heart of Wood" for the Level 1 ETR (available in-game for 50 Heroic Commendations or 7995 TP in the store!).

[Gljosh]

I will also add to the more fate points OR more twists post. I like the "idea" of sphere specific past Lifes, but Primal has a Ranged, a Melee, and a Summon/Melee destiny. I still think something 2~3 times a similar Heroic Past Life with a little something extra would work fine, if they are 1 time bonuses. Example Fury Sphere, Primal Avatar, Improved Summons-+4 Summon Bonus (stacks with all other bonuses), summons gain 1ppr (per character level), 0.5% dodge (per character level), 5% chance of elemental damage, 3% SP (per character level), and 2% HP (per character level).

[redspecter23]

I'd really hate to see a "Truer Druidic Heart of Wood" for the level 20 ETR, and a "Truest Druidic Heart of Wood" for the Level 1 ETR (available in-game for 50 Heroic Commendations or 7995 TP in the store!).

That is one of my major concerns right now. A potentially amazing system could be ruined by ultra rare and/or expensive widgets needed to undergo the process. The actual TR system is looking great, but this part needs to be addressed before we all get a huge surprise at launch time.

[memloch]

I am also liking the sound of the new system. My questions are:

Will there be a passive and active component to the feats like Heroic?
For completionist do Iconics need to be completed as well?

Thanks for listening

[Kambuk]

This still does not address what I see as one of the big issues with the end game at the moment.

Leveling Epic Destinies that give little to no benefit to you is not fun.

Playing at high level with an Epic Destiny that compliments your abilities is fun, having to swap to a destiny that is not fun to play to progress is not fun.

There needs to be a mechanism to put lost exp from playing with a capped destiny towards another destiny at a reduced rate.

i.e. a twist you can slot from a destiny you have unlocked

The higher level the twist slot you dedicate the more exp you get, use multiple slots to level multiple destinies.

i.e.
T1 Twist slot 10% xp
T2 Twist slot 15% xp
T3 Twist slot 20% xp
T4 Twist slot 25% xp

Lets say you are a new 1st life Sorcerer and want to get to Shiradi you initally take Draconic at level 20 and start leveling it.
By the time you cap it you have 1 twist slot you can use to get 10% xp in one adjacent destiny.
You can now choose to level another destiny or stay in Draconic and at least make some progress.
You then get asked to do an Epic raid for the 1st time, theres a lot of xp to be had but you are expected to contribute. This way you can be in an optimal destiny, contribute to a raid and still get some progress towards other destinies

Someone who has already unlocked a T3 slot and a T2 slot could either get 35% in one destiny, 15% in one and 10% in another or 10% in one and use the other slot for an ability that want.

This is a solution that would not take a UI change, just add the epic destiny abilities to each tree and the code to go with them.

Thoughts?

Kambuk

[EllisDee37]

As far as epic past life feats, I would be content if there were only 1 single past life feat and it would stack unlimited times:

1 fate point


I just like the idea of being able to grind out (over a truly ridiculous amount of time) three tier 4 twists.

[sebastianosmith]

Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-l-OEGNFRBd8/UjN69sz1KMI/AAAAAAAAAg4/mK1V6mkbPsw/s800/IveGotGirlBoobs.jpg

[kierg10]

Can you change class and race on an epic TR or do you have to go all the way back to level 1 to do this?

Does an epic TR also reset your favor? Can't say it'd be unreasonable if it did, asking just to clarify.

Ya I was gonna ask this too.

I think if you let us go to twenty with an entirely new build that would be very good indeed :P

Would really boost interest for me in the game, because I mostly TR to try out new builds/because I'm getting sick of other builds......and I really prefer epics over heroics (although I would still do heroic TRs from time to time in case there were certain bonuses you could only get from heroic TRs or bonuses from heroic TRs stacked with epic TRs.)

So please consider letting us run from level 20 to 28 with a completely new build/race/alignment......THIS WOULD BE AWESOME!

[Rinnaldo]

This still does not address what I see as one of the big issues with the end game at the moment.

Leveling Epic Destinies that give little to no benefit to you is not fun.
...
T1 Twist slot 10% xp
T2 Twist slot 15% xp
T3 Twist slot 20% xp
T4 Twist slot 25% xp
...Thoughts?

Kambuk

Something along these lines seems like it could work really well.

[Grosbeak07]

Just trying to disect this and wrap my head around it. "As you level Epic Destinies"... "EPLs will stack up to 3 times"...

I have a 1st life Arti that is ultimately capped. Level 28. Maximum XP Achieved in every Destiny... How will I earn points on subsequent lives if Destiny XP isn't reset? Is there going to be an actual separate Points mechanic, or is this going to work like qualifying for the level 28 feats?
"Oh, you're at cap... you qualify for x,y, and z PLs.... Pick one and get to cap again to pick another..."
"This subsequent life, you amassed 6.7 million XP playing in Shiradi on your Artificer, that translates to Eleventy-One PL Points for the Primal Sphere... Purchase one of the following: a, b, c. Remaining Points will be lost upon Reincarnation." (Note: This will stink for off-destiny PLs. GRINDING OFF-DESTINIES IS NOT FUN.)


As I side note... I really hope that all these will just need a True Druidic Heart of Wood, and the option we pick when talking to Kruz or the Fatespinner determines the type of TR. I'd really hate to see a "Truer Druidic Heart of Wood" for the level 20 ETR, and a "Truest Druidic Heart of Wood" for the Level 1 ETR (available in-game for 50 Heroic Commendations or 7995 TP in the store!).

As I understand it, they are planning on granting the epic tr "points" to those who alread have or are working on filling out their destinies, when the new system goes live.

[Vargouille]

To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)


Will there be a passive and active component to the feats like Heroic?

We are leaning towards not doing this in the same way as Heroic Past Lives. We'd rather spend time making the granted Past Lives better. However, we are considering having activated, granted Past Lives, so activated abilities are still a possibility.


For completionist do Iconics need to be completed as well?

Iconic Heroes are essentially a separate system with their own design.

It is unlikely that Epic Completionist would involve Iconic Past Lives.
Iconic Heroes can perform Epic Reincarnations like any other character.
We don't currently intend for the existing Heroic Completionist to be affected by Epic or Iconic Past Lives.

We'll discuss more Iconic Hero details later on.

[Braegan]

Much better proposal so far.

I would like to see more details before I get too excited. Namely the cost of an ETR and it's availibility to do so in game without needing the DDO store to bypass an extreme low in game drop rate.

[Havok.cry]

So far I am liking what I am hearing.

[SirValentine]

Epic reincarnation will.... allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.




Thank you for de-coupling Epic TR and Heroic TR

I guess it's time to go start knocking out the rest of my planned Heroic TRs, since I won't be forced to do extra Heroic TRs rolled in with Epic TRs.

[Scraap]

To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)



We are leaning towards not doing this in the same way as Heroic Past Lives. We'd rather spend time making the granted Past Lives better. However, we are considering having activated, granted Past Lives, so activated abilities are still a possibility.



Iconic Heroes are essentially a separate system with their own design.

It is unlikely that Epic Completionist would involve Iconic Past Lives.
Iconic Heroes can perform Epic Reincarnations like any other character.
We don't currently intend for the existing Heroic Completionist to be affected by Epic or Iconic Past Lives.

We'll discuss more Iconic Hero details later on.

Query: Better as in replacing something so there can be growth in another area, or better as in yet more stacking (and the game being balanced to account for it.)

[Ovrad]

Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

/cynicalmode on

Soon in the DDOstore: Sphere points bundles!

[Rinnaldo]

...
(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)

....

Karma?

Points earned while you are fulfilling your destiny, so that in a new life you can alter your destiny...

[Tevain]

Any thoughts on heroic past lives? Some aren't even worth the effort to TR for them and considered pretty meh. They could really use a pass.

Don't you dare touch my 3 Ranger PL's on my AA!

except if you boost them ofc, and no doubleshot with the current aftereffects from Manyshot/10k Stars is NOT an option

[Dmnqwk]

When it comes to heroic past lives, some of them are good (+1 all skills, +1 dc), some are situational (+2 ranged damage, +1 turn attempt) and some are... yeah (+1 damage to sneak attacks)

Just what is your goal with the power level of these?

Would we see for example:
Arcane Sphere - Puppet Master. Your voice hums with a magical overture, confusing and disorienting all around you. Enemies without 30ft are subject to a Mass Charm Monster spell (DC 10+level+ highest int/cha). Cooldown 3 minutes.
Martial Sphere - Put some welly into it. When wielding a two-handed weapon, you add twice your attribute modifier to damage instead of 1.5 times. When dual wielding, you add your full bonus to offhand attacks.

Or would we be more in line to expect
Divine - Piety. Your cure spells are 10% more effective and your smites deal 10% more damage.
Martial - Blind Fighting. You can reroll the miss chance for invisible or concealed foes.

[CaptainSpacePony]

Well,,, it is nice that you're providing some early info on the direction you're looking at, however, I will dissent from the chorus and state a concern on one point mentioned.

If ED's will largely retained for epic TR, and you drop from level cap to level 20, it seems to me that there is... too easy. There is not a lot of difference between levels 20 and 28. Skill and hit points aside, not to mention the epic feats are cute, but the power is in the EDs (and their twists). Getting from level 20-28 is no great feat with capped EDs.

TR of any flavor should mean something a bit more, it should be a mark of accomplishment.

I suggest all TRing start a character over at level 1. Yes I recognize than many will claim that's not what they want, but remember we love this game and love to play it. Follow the advice from this excellent article on game design http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr253 and don't break rule #5 from this preceding article http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr68

[EllisDee37]

To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.Awesome. My only worry has evaporated.

[maddmatt70]

To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)
.
So we still have to spend time in Destinies which are ill fitting our character in order to both earn twist points and to earn points in a sphere which is not our character's main destiny for the purposes of true reincarnation. Sounds very unfun. I am little bit more onboard with this in terms of epic reincarnation, but not at all for twisted fate points despite that being the current way that things are done. Make DDO more fun by providing incentives for fun things instead of unfun things. As I posted in a thread in the general discussion provide incentives to my fighter for playing the most recent released quests in his favorite destiny at whatever quest difficulty he chooses to play instead of providing incentives for running 1-3 year old quests in a poor destiny for his build on epic normal/hard.

[Silverleafeon]

To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)Nice, looking forward to earning Spear Points...

We are leaning towards not doing this in the same way as Heroic Past Lives. We'd rather spend time making the granted Past Lives better. However, we are considering having activated, granted Past Lives, so activated abilities are still a possibility.
Past Life abilities that cost a feat = not popular.

Iconic Heroes are essentially a separate system with their own design.

It is unlikely that Epic Completionist would involve Iconic Past Lives.
Iconic Heroes can perform Epic Reincarnations like any other character.
We don't currently intend for the existing Heroic Completionist to be affected by Epic or Iconic Past Lives.

We'll discuss more Iconic Hero details later on.Perfect.

More Iconics plus Iconic Completionist someday.

Oh, and pretty please all Completionist Feat(s)= auto granted.

[Braegan]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Just some off the top of the head ideas...

Divine

Choose one of:

Emissary of the Heavens

10% increase to Positive and Light Spell Power and 2% increase to generate Criticals when casting Positive and Light Spells. This can stack up to 3 times for 30% increase in Spell Power ( Light and Positive) and 6% Chance to Crit.

Sovereign Defender

10% Increase to generate Hate, 5% Healing Amp, 5 PRR. This can stack up to 3 times for 30% Hate, 15% Heal Amp, 15 PRR

Martial

Choose one of:

One with All

3% Stacking Elemental Absorbtion, .5(W) Damage when centered, 5% Run Speed. This can stack 3 times for 9% Stacking Elemental Absorbtion, 1.5(W) Damage when centered, 15% Run Speed.

The Shadow in the Dark

3% Dodge, 2% Dodge Cap increase. This can stack 3 times for 9% Dodge, 6% Dodge Cap inrease.

The Blade and I

+2 to Tactical Feats DCs, Each time you Vorpal 10% Chance to regain 2 uses of Action Boosts. This can stack 3 times for +6 to Tactical Feat DCs and 30% Chance to regain 2 uses of Action Boosts.

Arcane

Choose one of

The Wyrm

10% increase to damage with Elemental Spell Power, 2% chance to generate Crits with Elemental Spells. This can stack up to 3 times for 30% increase to Elemental Spell Power and 6% chance to generate Crits.

Master of the Weave

+2 DCs to all spells, 5% Increase to Force and Untyped Spell Power. This can stack up to 3 times for +6 to DCs and 15% increase to Force and Untyped Spell Power.

Master of Ceremonies

+1 use of Bardic Songs, +2 to Perform Skill, Inspire Courage grants additional +1hit/+1damage, 5% Increase to Sonic Spell Power. This can stack up to 3 times for +3 uses of Bardic Songs, +6 to Perform, Inspire Courage +3 hit/+3 Damage and 15% Sonic Spell Power.

Primal

Choose one of

The Blood Boils

2% stacking Doublestrike/Doubleshot, +2 Damage. This can stack up to 3 times for 6% Doublestrike/Doubleshot and +6 to Damage.

Chosen of the Fey

+2 Damage with Ranged Weapon, +5% Ranged Arlacity, +10% Universal Spell Power. This can stack up to 3 times for +6 to Ranged Damage, +15% Ranged Arlacity, +30% Universal Spell Power.

The Harvester

+3% Attack Speed while TWF, +2 to all Stats of Summoned Creatures, +5% Elemental Spell Power. This can stack up to 3 times for +9% Attack Speed while TWF, +6 to all stats of Summoned Creatures, +15% Elemental Spell Power.



Well that's my off the top of head thoughts.

/cheers.

[BOgre]

Heroic lives require more XP to level. I'm hoping that Epic lives do not require inflated 'sphere points' with each reincarnation.

[Candela90]

TR of any flavor should mean something a bit more, it should be a mark of accomplishment.

I suggest all TRing start a character over at level 1. Yes I recognize than many will claim that's not what they want, but remember we love this game and love to play it. Follow the advice from this excellent article on game design http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr253 and don't break rule #5 from this preceding article http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mr68

Yes... it should feel accomplishment not boredom and feeling of time waste.
Well... Why time waste?
Imagine youre a player who did at least completionist or triple completionist - and yet has to go thro it AGAIN to get epic TR PL. So basically with your system - someone who starts playing now and TRing with ETRs would have to do 39 TRs to be triple completionist with all Epic PLs and Heroic PLs while the player who did triple completionist before would have to do (depends on how many PLs from EDs we will have, but lets assume its 9 stackable 3 times like many ppl are suggesting). So this player to get the same as player 1 would have to do 66 lifes.
66 lifes? Are you crazy? :P Its not love for game - ppl planning on it should be hospitalized :P. Well.. if theyre planning on PLAYING it not buying with pots and otto boxes.

Now completionist. Just normal example - not crazy like above. with your system player with completionist now would have to do (sll together) 22 lifes, while the other starting player only 13.
Its a big difference making players who spend X years improving their characters feel like they throw away their time.
Bcs yeah... Playing game is fun. grinding XP for 22 times is not :P. Its not fun for 6+ for me to be honest.


Also - going from lvl 20 to 28 for me is long time. From 20 to 25 takes me around 3 weeks. From 25 to 28 around the same time. Yeah - Im not hardcore player. I play 2-3 hours a day max - well sometimes longer but 2-3 hours is when i do quests. Other times im just chatting with some friends while beeing bored or waiting for group.
So with 30 lvls soon coming I think 2 months for leveling a character is enough accomplishment. 1-20 takes me around 1,5 month so its pretty comparable.

I hate it that some elitists come in and say like : make drop for +5 and +6 tomes lower, givre us 20 new past lifes to grind out - I mean TR 1-20 is only 1 week right? Zerg ppl.
From your change zergers and elitist would be actually more happy. Normal and casual players - not so much. Bcs sure - going for goal is fun. But not if the goal is 2+ years away from you and you know that in 2 years there will be ton of new stuff to keep up with.

[Trillea]

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)



Aww and here I was hoping that the points in each sphere would be listed in some kind of square-shaped layout and be called the ED Sphere Grid...

:D

[Grosbeak07]

So we still have to spend time in Destinies which are ill fitting our character in order to both earn twist points and to earn points in a sphere which is not our character's main destiny for the purposes of true reincarnation. Sounds very unfun. I am little bit more onboard with this in terms of epic reincarnation, but not at all for twisted fate points despite that being the current way that things are done. Make DDO more fun by providing incentives for fun things instead of unfun things. As I posted in a thread in the general discussion provide incentives to my fighter for playing the most recent released quests in his favorite destiny at whatever quest difficulty he chooses to play instead of providing incentives for running 1-3 year old quests in a poor destiny for his build on epic normal/hard.

I could be reading this wrong, but V did say that you will continue to earn points, even if your destiny is capped. So unless you want to be a completionist, it does not appear you will have to run in spheres that area not good for your class/build.

If you do want to be a completionist, you may have to plan to do some of your least favorite destinies with classes who can at least use them, while you work towards heroic completionist as well.

If how I'm reading this is correct, then I think they are on the right road to a good system.

[SisAmethyst]

Very nice and looks promising!


...

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)

...

Somehow this"points in a Sphere" reminds me on the stars in the sphere background, like the stars in a nebula of galaxies... unfortunately we already have "stars" used for challenges.

[EllisDee37]

So we still have to spend time in Destinies which are ill fitting our character in order to both earn twist points and to earn points in a sphere which is not our character's main destiny for the purposes of true reincarnation. Sounds very unfun.No matter how many times we explain it, the devs seem wholly unaware that running in off-destiny is actually unfun. A chore that we force ourselves to do.

They seem to have built almost all of epic play around running in an off destiny: Epic Feats from a sphere other than your primary one, Epic TR points from a sphere other than your primary one, and of course, fate points.

I like everything about this game, heck I even like Threnal, with one exception: Playing for even 1 minute outside of my chosen destiny. Much like my wizard would not like to be forced to use the barbarian enhancement trees, but instead prefers to use the wizard trees.

I truly do not think they are aware how unfun leveling off destinies is because the sum total of their personal experience with doing so involves talking to that trainer dude in the dojo.

[Qhualor]

if you hover over the destiny spheres and each destiny, there is a brief description. I think it would be a good idea for epic past lives to be associated with the core of the destiny. for example Fury of the Wild it says they defend nature by taking the fight to its enemies. they wield rage and destruction rolling over their foes like a deadly storm. the destiny allows characters to take a variety of personal defensive options to stand longer in the face of overwhelming odds also dealing huge amounts of damage. I would like to see a tie in to nature and dealing increased damage and/or increased survivability. I don't think these past lives should be over powering like the heroic versions were not intended to be, but with some imagination and creativity, I think the devs can build off these destiny descriptions. I just don't want to see a repeat of something like ranger past lives that give increased ranged damage which is more beneficial for ranged characters and less appealing for those that focus more on non ranged fighting. generalizing the past lives would attract more TRing.

edit: I understand that epic TR is not for specific destinies, I was just giving an example. primal destiny has a close association with nature.

[IronClan]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

I have an "amazing idea"... Each Epic past life allows access to ONE TIER of ONE sphere's classes enhancement tree... up to 3 or maybe in the future 4.

1 primal past life lets you choose for example Frenzied Berserker tree tier 1
3 gets you up to tier 3...

Does not grant more AP's to spend, Can not choose more than one PrE tree from any class that is associated with that sphere. Does not grant core abilities (maybe look into the possibility of core grants up to core 3 or 4 in the future as an "uber epic completionist" carrot)

So your spending is still limited to AP spent in tree rules and you still have only 80 AP's to spread around.

Possible example result:
Pure bard with 3 Primal past lives (lets say he's THF and mostly warchanter) 20 AP's spent in Spell singer, 42 Spent in Warchanter for capstone, 18 AP's available to spend on Angry Arms, Mad munitions and maybe Supreme cleave.

Over powered? Not really you can't get tier 5's from it, and splashing 3 Barb gives the same possibility and is far easier to accomplish.

Massive new build possibilities... each tier must be earned with a 20-28 run soon to be 1-30 run... 80 AP limit keeps it from being overpowered. Gives pure classes a way to access one or more low tiers in other trees, and is inhernetly more useful for a pure class character, becuase they have more AP's they can free up because they have less trees. Gives multiclasses low level access to trees they couldn't otherwise get. but they are already spending most their AP's in their multiclass trees, so they would sacrifice points from one or more of their class trees to take a few in a class they don;t have... Self limiting but really expands build possibilities.

Of course if this is "too much too soon" you could make a much more grnidy version of it... Allow each past life to open up 2 AP's worth of possible spending in any single tree that is part of that sphere.

So one Primal past life = you can spend 2 points in Tempest tree
2 Primal = 4 points can be spent
8 primal = 16 points can be spent. cut this off where ever you feel you need to limit it. or leave it wide open throw caution to the wind and let someone grind out crazy past lives...

20 epic TR's in primal sphere = 40 points of access to a primal class tree.

Don't even really need to rule out tier 5's and cores, as the 80AP limit and AP spent in tree restrictions will make sure no one ever has more than about 4-ish trees they can effectively spend in.

[EllisDee37]

I could be reading this wrong, but V did say that you will continue to earn points, even if your destiny is capped. So unless you want to be a completionist, it does not appear you will have to run in spheres that area not good for your class/build.Unless you want one of the past life feats from a different sphere.

[Arianka]

We'll discuss more Iconic Hero details later on.
Plz make so only WF can TR into bladeforged, Only humans into shader kai, only elves into morning lords, humans into purple dragon knights. Come up with other iconics that only dwraves, drow, and hobbits can TR in to.

[maddmatt70]

No matter how many times we explain it, the devs seem wholly unaware that running in off-destiny is actually unfun. A chore that we force ourselves to do.

They seem to have built almost all of epic play around running in an off destiny: Epic Feats from a sphere other than your primary one, Epic TR points from a sphere other than your primary one, and of course, fate points.

I like everything about this game, heck I even like Threnal, with one exception: Playing for even 1 minute outside of my chosen destiny. Much like my wizard would not like to be forced to use the barbarian enhancement trees, but instead prefers to use the wizard trees.

I truly do not think they are aware how unfun leveling off destinies is because the sum total of their personal experience with doing so involves talking to that trainer dude in the dojo.

It maybe just that - they made destinies too powerful and designed the game around less power. Nerf the destinies please devs recognize that your game is flawed. There are no lfms for the new content on epic elite - that is flawed. There are tons of lfms for Von 3 epic hard and if you nerf Von3 it will be another similiar quest on e hard wiz king for example. Really just make a better game. This epic reincarnation thing is going to be about people running old quests on epic hard in bad destinies. Admit your mistakes and do something about it.

[Braegan]

It maybe just that - they made destinies too powerful and designed the game around less power. Nerf the destinies please devs recognize that your game is flawed. There are no lfms for the new content on epic elite - that is flawed. There are tons of lfms for Von 3 epic hard and if you nerf Von3 it will be another similiar quest on e hard wiz king for example. Really just make a better game. This epic reincarnation thing is going to be about people running old quests on epic hard in bad destinies. Admit your mistakes and do something about it.

Well let's not confuse why there are not LFMs for the new content on EE as to why folks would rather run old epics for XP. The new quests are not that good at XP/Min and the Loot is nothing to write home about. It has nothing to do with the power of our characters, I could easily join/form groups for new EE Content. Truth is, it's not worth my time because there is nothing I really want from it (loot wise) and the XP sucks for the time invested.

You want folks to be a happy gerbil running the wheel, give us a better carrot. Because this XPac falls really short on delivering as to my repeat play of its quests for many reasons.

[Silverleafeon]

Nerf the destinies please devs recognize that your game is flawed.

Here is an idea, you reset all your epic destinies and don't use them, but let me have mine.


There are no lfms for the new content on epic elite - that is flawed.

You need a better server then.
We are tough cookies on Khyber.

[Braegan]

Plz make so only WF can TR into bladeforged, Only humans into shader kai, only elves into morning lords, humans into purple dragon knights. Come up with other iconics that only dwraves, drow, and hobbits can TR in to.

While a nice idea for Flavor, completely disregards the whole point and mechanic of a TR. It is a chance to completely change everything about you save your name and gender. No. Anyone, of any race should be able to TR into a new Race/Iconic.

[EllisDee37]

...and also change your gender.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Aww and here I was hoping that the points in each sphere would be listed in some kind of square-shaped layout and be called the ED Sphere Grid...

:D

square-shaped sphere... i like it.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Oh, and pretty please all Completionist Feat(s)= auto granted.

And stacks three times, pretty please with sugar on top.

[Rubbinns]

Really liking the new changes to everything. Keeps things alive and interesting. Breaking them in slowly is the hard part.

[Satyriasys]

If we TR from 28 to 20 quests will need to reset like they do during heroic TR so we can get first time bonuses again.

[Atremus]

<snip>

DDO highfive for this greatest news




Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.




Varg this is pretty nice to read. Looking forward to seeing the final implementation

[maddong]

Sounds cool so far!

[sirgog]

Much better than the original idea.

I don't think it would be an issue at all if you lost XP in a destiny of your choice in the sphere you are reincarnating in. The original idea's problem was that you lost the XP in the horrible destinies (Exalted Angel on a rogue, etc).

Example: You are playing a Wizard that is level 28, capped on Draconic Incarnation and Magister (let's call capped level 6 even though technically it is 5; level 5 without max possible XP would remain level 5), and at level 4 in Fatesinger. Your only out-of-sphere ED is level 2 in Shadowdancer. You Epic TR as a Draconic Incarnation.

Now you return as a level 20 Wizard. You gain 6 arcane karma (as you sacrificed a max level DI), lose all your DI XP, but remain capped in Magister, and keep your XP in Fatesinger and Shadowdancer. Relevelling to 28 will cap you in DI again easily, and you'll also have enough XP by the time you hit 28 to cap Fatesinger and Shadowdancer if you want.


Whatever happens, don't let epic TR benefits stack as high as heroic TR benefits. The 9 spellpen and 4 to (some) DCs you get for running the caster lives (5 to DCs if you go to the point of completionist) are gamebreaking to the point that first life DC casters are not even remotely close to viable in endgame content. Further insane stacking bonuses will widen the gap between those with time to grind and those without.



Finally, what is the mechanism for undergoing epic TR going to be? It should be similar to heroic TR (available in the store but also in-game via a modest grind that is not luck based). I don't mind a one-month store only period but after that it should be reasonably accessible to players. (Not a rare EE only drop).

[Mystera]

Well let's not confuse why there are not LFMs for the new content on EE as to why folks would rather run old epics for XP. The new quests are not that good at XP/Min and the Loot is nothing to write home about. It has nothing to do with the power of our characters, I could easily join/form groups for new EE Content. Truth is, it's not worth my time because there is nothing I really want from it (loot wise) and the XP sucks for the time invested.

Tell me about it. It took our group 2 hours and 15 mins to run EE What Goes Up last night, with the main problem being that the final fight cost the 3 casters, myself included, an average of 40 pots each. I mean respawning groups of 20-30 EE mobs with a boss that has 250k hit points and is hard to hit since he teleports all over the map? Common, get real, I will never set foot in the quest again. The XP and loot are terrible and not worth that amount of effort and resources. I lost track of how many threads we made on Lammania telling them the named loot was terrible and the XP per minute was bad. But they never did listen, so they shouldn't be surprised when nobody is running the new content (our server is now down to only 10-15 LFMs, and a lot of times there are none for lvl 20+ content). A shame too, I think the Stormhorns area is absolutely gorgeous, but I'm not going to waste my time and resources for a chance to pull **** loot and for **** XP.

[Deadlock]

I'm slightly confused by a post saying that you have new stuff to tell us which only tells us some thing that you seemingly won't be doing without giving us the details that we need to voice an informed decision on your proposal.

I'm not usually one to ask for less communication, but in this instance I'll make an exception.

Why say anything until you have something to tell us? Did you think that a teaser announcement would generate a positive vibe among the forum community?

Right now you've told us nothing apart from the fact that there will be something to tell us soonish. The fact we won't lose all ED XP as the stupidily naive initial proposal stated isn't new news.

You don't really expect us to believe that all decisions are currently in a state of flux and it will be at least 7 or 14 days before a producer has an announcement to make, and this is just a pre-announcement of a an announcement still to come - especially when there is no proposal for us to respond to.

So just cut to the chase - tell us what the current proposal is and we'll give you proper feedback.

[Mystera]

To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

Anyone else smell another blatant money grab here? Epic reincarnation points in the store anyone?

Also, there is no way I'm going to grind out another 6.6million xp per epic TR x 3 lives x 4 spheres = 79.2 million XP. In fact given the significant decline in LFMs for epic content, the poor XP per minute, and the requirement to earn ~3/4 of this XP in an off destiny, there is no way in hell I would do more than 1-2 epic TRs. Heck, I can't even stand to run a single quest in an off destiny...not to mention people will grief you or not let you into their group if you do.

[Deadlock]

A shift in such paradigm is when something you thought to be true is actually false... at least for my intended usage. We thought the world was flat, then we learned it is round. Or... we thought the Epic loop had to take you to Lv 1 and at great cost (and there were valid design reasons to do so). When that limitation was lifted a new pattern emerged.

So if you Epic TR at level 28 at 20 Sorc/8 Epic then you gain a Sorcerer Past Life Feat just like you would have done at 20, plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat?

If not, there's no point Epic TRing until you've exhausted the Heroic TR option.

If you do gain a Sorcerer PL Feat and start again at 20 on your way to your next Epic TR at 28, which class do you start off in? Do you get a free reincarnate with enough XP to go all the way to 20 or are you stuck in a repetition of the previous life you have just done with only your Epic XP to regain to shape your next Epic TR?

[Braegan]

Tell me about it. It took our group 2 hours and 15 mins to run EE What Goes Up last night, with the main problem being that the final fight cost the 3 casters, myself included, an average of 40 pots each. I mean respawning groups of 20-30 EE mobs with a boss that has 250k hit points and is hard to hit since he teleports all over the map? Common, get real, I will never set foot in the quest again. The XP and loot are terrible and not worth that amount of effort and resources. I lost track of how many threads we made on Lammania telling them the named loot was terrible and the XP per minute was bad. But they never did listen, so they shouldn't be surprised when nobody is running the new content (our server is now down to only 10-15 LFMs, and a lot of times there are none for lvl 20+ content). A shame too, I think the Stormhorns area is absolutely gorgeous, but I'm not going to waste my time and resources for a chance to pull **** loot and for **** XP.

Yeah, that is a tough one for sure. And, I am sure I am not the only one that would eat that kind of time-sink, resource intensiveness if it was worth it. It is a fun quest to run a couple times. But it ( like most of the xpac) has little re-playability, poor xp, and meh loot.

I like DDO. I would like to be a happy hamster at the wheel. But, this xpac is terrible for keeping any interest. I run older epics because they are better designed and are more fun and more xp. It has nothing to do with the power we have achieved. The reason LFMs for the newer quests are not more abundant is because they pale in comparison to the superior design of older content. What Goes Up is the most fun quest in the Xpac, but it's not worth running more then a few times.

[Silverleafeon]

...EE What Goes Up last night...

That is a Quaid (6 man raid) and as such it will provide future challenge to players when the level cap is 30 and ed are 10...
Maybe we will see more Quaids in the future?

There are tricks you can learn, but still that is a new creature in the lineup...

[Gavroshe]

Just to get this out of the way, I love the idea of calling the "sphere points" "Karma" (Rinnaldo you are a genius)


Ok, so the idea that current triple completionists are getting screwed by having to do more TR's than someone just starting the game is incorrect. A new player will need to do 36 full epic TRs ( so break it down as 36 1-20s, and 36 20-28), whereas a triple completionist has done 36 1-20s, and now only has to do 36 20-28s. The math was flawed in considering 1-28 and 20-28 both as an equal TR.

As to the whining (yes, you are) about leveling in off destinies just stop. It hurts my head. I would LOVE to level up a fighter while simultaneously getting the benefits for leveling every other class in the game...But that would be silly. The idea that you can glean additional knowledge from activities outside your main focus is both realistic and an awesome game dynamic. Just because I hated geography doesn't mean I'm not better for sitting through the lectures.

When I play games I'm a 1 toon guy, I want to focus my time on my main only, and Until DDO I only played dwarf barbarian (or the closest to it the game would allow) but with DDO's unique TR system, I branched out and played a fighter, then a paladin, then I got crazy and rocked a bard and cleric life. The last two are VERY counter to my normal play style, it was more difficult and I had a steep learning curve to overcome and that made some things perhaps "less fun" but I have such a better understanding of those classes, what they can do and where they can be utilized I am PERSONALLY a better DDO player for it, and low and behold my toon receives past life's and steps toward completionist that make HIM a better toon for the learning experience. This is brilliant, period.

(*note, in this paragraph "class" means school, not DDO classes) Nobody requires you to TR, nobody asks you to run off destinies, but if you want the "knowledge and experience" from bard school, you have to GO to bard school. If you want the twists you have to be a scholar in more than 1 class. Even if you take nothing from that class (I.E. a twists from that ED) just the act of taking the class makes you a smarter person.

Now I can finally address Glin's post. Mildly disappointed... i mean, here I am, all doomed up with nowhere to go! For the sanity of the forums perhaps you could throw a little spark? ya know, "Truest druidic hearts of wood, only available in Otto's irresistableist box, CC sales only." My torch is starting to flicker!

I did want to suggest that if you add twists or fate points for eTR you may want to have them separate from our existing twists and FP. I say this only because if there became crazy unforseen overpower combinations you could adjust the new line restrictions instead of trying to rebalance the whole ED world around the now possible 142 fate points (hyperbole)


-Codence of Cannith
All doomed up with nowhere to go!

[Silverleafeon]

Just to get this out of the way, I love the idea of calling the "sphere points" "Karma" (Rinnaldo you are a genius)

Sounds like fun to me.

[PermaBanned]

So if you Epic TR at level 28 at 20 Sorc/8 Epic then you gain a Sorcerer Past Life Feat just like you would have done at 20, plus an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat?

If not, there's no point Epic TRing until you've exhausted the Heroic TR option.

If you do gain a Sorcerer PL Feat and start again at 20 on your way to your next Epic TR at 28, which class do you start off in? Do you get a free reincarnate with enough XP to go all the way to 20 or are you stuck in a repetition of the previous life you have just done with only your Epic XP to regain to shape your next Epic TR?
Here's the short version:
ETR from 28 down to 20 = Destiny past life.
ETR from 28 down to 1 = Heroic and Destiny past lives.

No specific word yet about whether only dropping down to 20 will allow all the changes (class, race etc) TRing back to level one allows. (As it's a reincarnation I am assuming so until contradicted)

[Delacroix21]

The whole beauty of TRing is that you get a FREE feat (no one really cares about the purchaseable ones). The problem is the "master achievement" of TRing offers nothing.... UNLESS you spend a feat slot.


This needs to be changed....


I would also like to see a 2nd and 3rd completionist feat for double and triple completionists as well. Am I a completionist? Nope... I am a first lifer sitting on 14 ottos boxes. Make these changes and you will expect even more ottos boxes to be purchased by me. =)

[kierg10]

Are the devs gonna say anything on whether you keep the same build or auto level to 20 a new build?

Would really like some input here :P

[PermaBanned]

The whole beauty of TRing is that you get a FREE feat (no one really cares about the purchaseable ones). The problem is the "master achievement" of TRing offers nothing.... UNLESS you spend a feat slot.


This needs to be changed....


I would also like to see a 2nd and 3rd completionist feat for double and triple completionists as well. Am I a completionist? Nope... I am a first lifer sitting on 14 ottos boxes. Make these changes and you will expect even more ottos boxes to be purchased by me. =)

Completionist going passive needs to happen, totally agree! But stacking 3 times? No. With ETR wer're getting 2 more build points (unless that's changed?) IMHO a 38 point build with +6 to all stats & skills sounds a bit excessive. The most I could get on board with is an "Epic Completionist" feat (also passive) that grants an additional +2, but even that seems like a lot in total.

[Deathdefy]

Is my understanding that you can apply the 'sphere points' earned in one destiny toward any other destiny within the same sphere correct?

So I could gather all past lives just in Draconic (Arcane), Unyielding (Divine), Shadow Dancer (Martial) and Fury (Primal)?

If so, great.

On suggestions for past-life feats:

-Draconic +1 Evocation DC, +20 (All) Elemental Spell Power.
-Magister +1 All Spells Dc, +2 Spell Pen
-Fatesinger +1 Enchantment DC, +1/+1 Inspire Courage Attack and Damage, +1 Songs per day

-Shadowdancer +1 Assassinate DC, +2 Hide / Move Silently, +1d6 Sneak Attack Damage
-Legendary Dreadnaught +2 Tactics DC, +2 Damage per hit
-Grandmaster of Flowers +1 Stunning DC, +1 Passive Ki Generation

-Fury +1 STR, +2 Damage per hit
-Primal Avatar +1 Wis, +1 Str
-Shiradi +30 Force Spell Power, +2 Ranged Damage

-Exalted Angel +5% Heal Amp, +20 Postive Spell Power, Empower Healing Metamagic costs 2 less SP.
-Unyielding Sentinel +5% Heal Amp, +10 PRR.

[Vargouille]

We currently expect the "return to level 20" part of Epic Reincarnation to essentially mean sacrificing your Epic class level progress (you keep Epic Destiny progress) while retaining your Heroic progress exactly as it is. There are other forms of Reincarnation for affecting Heroic advancement.


Is my understanding that you can apply the 'sphere points' earned in one destiny toward any other destiny within the same sphere correct?
Yes, it's true that you aren't spending points associated with an Epic Destiny. Though you don't exactly apply earned points towards Epic Destinies per se, as Epic Past Lives are not associated with any destiny, nor are the points you are earning in the Sphere.


So I could gather all past lives just in Draconic (Arcane), Unyielding (Divine), Shadow Dancer (Martial) and Fury (Primal)?
Yes, or whatever Epic Destiny you prefer in each sphere.

[Silverleafeon]

Completionist going passive needs to happen, totally agree! But stacking 3 times? No. With ETR wer're getting 2 more build points (unless that's changed?) IMHO a 38 point build with +6 to all stats & skills sounds a bit excessive. The most I could get on board with is an "Epic Completionist" feat (also passive) that grants an additional +2, but even that seems like a lot in total.Autogrant first please, feats are precious.

Well, if they did stack completionist feat for multiple completionist, it would be more reasonable to assume something like:
+2 ~ Completionist earned once
Upgrade to +3 ~ Completionist earned twice
Upgrade to +4 Completionist earned thrice


Epic Completionist probably should take a different approach such as:
Extra Twist Slot tier two ~ Epic Completionist earned once
Upgrade Extra Twist Slot to tier three ~ Epic Completionist earned twice
Upgrade Extra Twist Slot to tier four ~ Epic Completionist earned thrice


Iconic Completionist probably should take a different approach yet:
Free Extra Heroic Feat ~ Iconic Completionist earned once
Upgrade to Free Extra Epic Feat ~ Iconic completionist earned twice
Upgrade to Free Feat of anysort you qualify for ~ Iconic completionist earned thrice.

[Silverleafeon]

We currently expect the "return to level 20" part of Epic Reincarnation to essentially mean sacrificing your Epic class level progress (you keep Epic Destiny progress) while retaining your Heroic progress exactly as it is. There are other forms of Reincarnation for affecting Heroic advancement....Makes sense and easy to code.

....Yes, or whatever Epic Destiny you prefer in each sphere.
Nice.

For example, Fawngate the casting favored soul could do well enough with Draconic for arcane, Primal or Shiradi for Primal, and Shadowdancer for Martial.
She probably would TR into an Iconic some work on an Epic Past Life or two giving her even more flexibility.

[Cetus]

I think that there must be a passive and active component to these epic past life feats because I assume that it is in your interest to make this system as ubiquitous throughout the class spectrum as possible. The problem with the old past life feats and completionist was that the feat starved classes were completely discouraged from participating in this system aside from earning the passive feats.

As a result, the passive aspect of this system is utilized nonspecific of what class you actually play, and this is always a good thing.

A good alternative is to actually give everyone say, 2 free epic past live feats slots which may receive any heroic/epic active feat or heroic/epic completionist feat. This way, completionist becomes useful for everyone if they so see fit to sacrifice any other alternatives, and the feat rich classes may just take multiple feats. This allows most of us to profit one way or another.

Feat Ideas for martial sphere:

Martial:

1. Cooldown of tactical feats is reduced by 50%

2. Action boosts may regenerate at a rate of 1 every 120 seconds

3. Trip makes your target helpless when landed successfully

4. Duration of your tactical abilities are extended by 100% when landed successfully

5. Tactical abilities no longer fail on a 1

6. Melee attacks no longer miss on a 1

etc

Also, this is worth mentioning for the thousandth time - heroic completionist needs to be granted. I ground that out back when we had 20% pots max, no bravery, no tomes, much less quests, and lower first time N/H/E bonuses. It would be a nice gesture to respect that kind of devotion and free it up for us.

[Silverleafeon]

A good alternative is to actually give everyone say, 2 free epic past live feats slots which may receive any heroic/epic active feat or heroic/epic completionist feat. This way, completionist becomes useful for everyone if they so see fit to sacrifice any other alternatives, and the feat rich classes may just take multiple feats. This allows most of us to profit one way or another.
Interesting idea.

Or create a past life enhancement tree and let us spend point in it, but your idea is probably better.

Also, this is worth mentioning for the thousandth time - heroic completionist needs to be granted. I ground that out back when we had 20% pots max, no bravery, no tomes, much less quests, and lower first time N/H/E bonuses. It would be a nice gesture to respect that kind of devotion and free it up for us.
I'll believe it when I see it, however I have seem many things this day already that fall under that category....

[RTFM]

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'


Please devs make note: Playing in a NON CORE DESTINY IS HORRIBLE. It is NOT fun. It is really painful, boring, slow, and makes me walk away from the game every single day I do it. If you implement a system where this is what you envision us doing in this "Epic TR" system, forget it because nobody likes doing that at all. Even in the slightest.

It is a lot different from TR 1-20 because when you play a class you play a class. It not like saying "here play this Pali class with the rogue enhancement line and have fun!!!", which is basically how it seems it will work to me.

[QuantumFX]

I wouldn’t mind seeing a passive past life feats allow you to open up PrE's from classes that you don't have levels in. (Kind of like Racial PrEs are supposed to, you know, if they had actually gotten implemented like Turbine said they would.)

[Cyr]

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

I presume this means that you can get each feat three times (not just three feats from each sohere with the option of just choosing one three times). If not that needs to be changed as it presents a problem for future feat options in that early adopters could miss out on better feats for their toons and it could present the same issue for those whose builds change due to system changes making their old builds not so hot or just because they want to do something different (which TR's allow now).

So here are some ideas with the idea that you can get each feat three times with no limit to the total number of feats from a sphere you can get beyond that.

Elementalist (Arcane Sphere)
* You gain +20 Fire/Cold/Electric/Acid/Sonic and +1 Evocation/Conjuration DC.

Basic <Insert Destiny Name> Training (Appropriate Sphere per destiny)
* You gain the first core ability of the selected destiny. If selected twice you also gain the second core ability. If selected three times you also gain the third core ability. This ability only functions for inactive destinies.

Fate Bender (Arcane Sphere)
* All beneficial proc effects that apply to your abilities or items you have equipped are increased by 50% (example an effect which normally occurs 7% of the time would occur 7 + 3.5 = 10.5% of the time if you had this feat one time). Note, this only applies to effects which have a percentage proc rate and has no effect on dc effects, to hit, or other types of dice rolls.

Swift Feet (Martial Sphere)
* You gain +5% movement rate.

Let Your Rage Empower You (Primal)
* While raged, whenever you vorpal hit an enemy (20 attack role) you have a 33.3% chance of gaining a counter of every type which applies to epic destiny abilities (ex. shadow charges).

Self Centered (Martial)
* You are treated as if you were always centered for the purposes of using core abilities and destiny abilities of tier 2/4/6 or lower. You also no longer lose ki for being uncentered and gain ki as if you were always centered.

Master Archer (Primal)
* All core abilities which apply to attacks and all tier 2/4/6 or lower destiny abilities also apply to ranged attacks if they do not already. Additionally, abilities which only apply to specific types of ranged attacks now apply to all ranged attacks (from the previously list of abilities). Example, any abilities which state 'melee' attacks grant something now grant that for ranged attacks also.

Master of Melee Arts (Martial)
* As Master Archer except applies to melee abilities.

[Scraap]

Growth without stacking:

Divine:
Grants empower healing, empower, maximise.
or
Mental toughness, improved mental toughness, epic mental toughness.

Martial:
Grants Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting.
or
Grants Two handed fighting, improved two handed fighting, greater two handed fighting.

Primal:
Grants Power attack, cleave, great cleave.
or
Point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot.

Arcane:
Grants Spell pen, improved spell pen, epic spell pen.
or
Spellfocus X, greater spell focus X, Epic spell focus X.

[BOgre]

1st ER
Grants access to 4th Twist slot, slot is specific to ER'd Sphere, Tier 1.

Additional ERs in Sphere
Upgrades Sphere Twist Slot one Tier, max Tier 3.

1st ER in another Sphere
Grants Access to 5th Twist slot, slot is specific to ER'd Sphere, Tier 1

And so on until all Sphere Twist Slots unlocked and upgraded to Tier 3 (Completionist)

Completionist
Upgrade 1 Sphere Twist Slot to Tier 4

[psykopeta]

Yup. Iconics get a whole section on how they fit into TR.
Reincarnation and Iconics is pretty straight forward but I think it makes more sense when the whole system is laid out.

pls would be great if instead of doing something weird with iconics just use em as races (because they are races, have their different enhancement racial tree, not different class tree)

they start the 1st life at lvl 15? no trouble, it's 1st life, but they NEED to LR (and maybe someone decides to tr from it) specially the bladeforged we had BEFORE the u19(and now are almost useless due to changes in enhancements and skills, i have my +20LR but can't use it, just want the same build with different feats and skills U_U)

someone wanna tr into an iconic? feel free to do so, no starting gear and u'll be lvl 1, because if u force iconics to lvl til 28 to TR, dunno if ppl will TR it (they lose 6,6M from epics - 850k they needed to cap if had to go from 15 to 20 = 5,75M doesn't worth nor benefit)

so pls, think about iconics as "an easy button to skip 1 life" (like ppl is doing with otto's/bigby's they pay $$ to skip grinding 1 life, is ok with me, i just wanna be able to LR my iconic XD)

[eachna_gislin]

Is there any intention to provide clerics and artificers with their missing destinies?

[mikarddo]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Divine Sphere:
1) Stepping wisely. 1/3 the Wisdom modifier is added to reflex saves.
2) The higher of WIS and CHA is used to determine DC when casting divine spells.
3) The higher of WIS and CHA is used to determine number of divine spell points.

[Thordarr]

Keeping destinies, epic TR to 20 and keeping heroic TR as it is - looks great direction!

(I'm assuming you don't loose your epic destinies if you heroic TR - its not explicitly stated as so....)

[Uska]

Plz make so only WF can TR into bladeforged, Only humans into shader kai, only elves into morning lords, humans into purple dragon knights. Come up with other iconics that only dwraves, drow, and hobbits can TR in to.

UMMMM HELL NO! What you want people to quit in droves?

[Uska]

Are the devs gonna say anything on whether you keep the same build or auto level to 20 a new build?

Would really like some input here :P

I would bet if you only do the epic TR that your lvls 1-20 wont be touched

[Uska]

Please devs make note: Playing in a NON CORE DESTINY IS HORRIBLE. It is NOT fun. It is really painful, boring, slow, and makes me walk away from the game every single day I do it. If you implement a system where this is what you envision us doing in this "Epic TR" system, forget it because nobody likes doing that at all. Even in the slightest.

It is a lot different from TR 1-20 because when you play a class you play a class. It not like saying "here play this Pali class with the rogue enhancement line and have fun!!!", which is basically how it seems it will work to me.

You shouldn't be able to use one ED to get exp. in another and if I understand you that is what you want, sorry that's a bad idea you want to get through a ED you need to play through it.

[EllisDee37]

You shouldn't be able to use one ED to get exp. in another and if I understand you that is what you want, sorry that's a bad idea you want to get through a ED you need to play through it.We don't want to get through the off destinies, though. All we want are fate points and the ability to epic TR, neither of which need to be related to off destinies at all.

Happily the devs' responses have already made it clear that epic tr points will not be tied to specific destinies, meaning we'll have to level with the destiny of our choice active from the sphere we want the past life from. This is a good direction.

All we need to do now is get fate points decoupled from destiny levels and the system will be perfect.

[LadyKoneko]

You need a better server then.
We are tough cookies on Khyber.

.. your point is invalid... how often do our EE runs get to the LFM stage before we're full? Now that i'm done picking on fawnfawn...

Feat Ideas.. and I'm not nice enough (or coherent enough) to organize.

Of course +## spell power (insert type here) prefer increased crit chance as well or another option.

SLA: longer rage, mass heal, mass resist energy (whether hit 1 target with all resists, or group with 1 resist... either would be nice!) any 9th level spell, longer duration invis/incorperal (like shadow fade), True Rez,

+2 DC universal, or +4 to (insert type here)

Increase to damages always useful, tactical DC increases nice..

+ %% Amp (both positive and repair)

Some sort of better summons or increase to summons.. I think someone said like 'grand summoning' before...

Some E-Completionist ideas: by themselves or mixture of...
+5 stacking stat increase (so +7 with heroic completionist)

+100 hp and +100 sp (fvs/sorc would be 200)

+10 to all skills

[Yaga_Nub]

...

I suggest all TRing start a character over at level 1. Yes I recognize than many will claim that's not what they want, but remember we love this game and love to play it.

NO. Just NO.

Because we love playing the game doesn't mean there isn't some parts of it that we are sick of. If they got rid of every quest between levels 1 and 10, I wouldn't shed a tear because I've playing them literally thousands of times. The only thing that is fun thousands of times is sex.

To be honest, I'd rather they shelve this whole idea and shift every bit of development money to building quests. I don't care if it costs these people their jobs, DDO needs a hundred new quests rather that one more form of reincarnation that forces us to keep playing the same tired quests over and over. Especially since they give us **** XP for all the newer quests.

Don't get me wrong, I'm going to do epic TRing when it gets here but I'll have a small tear running down my cheek thinking about what the game could be compared to what the producers continually give us.

[Yaga_Nub]

So we still have to spend time in Destinies which are ill fitting our character in order to both earn twist points and to earn points in a sphere which is not our character's main destiny for the purposes of true reincarnation. Sounds very unfun. I am little bit more onboard with this in terms of epic reincarnation, but not at all for twisted fate points despite that being the current way that things are done. Make DDO more fun by providing incentives for fun things instead of unfun things. As I posted in a thread in the general discussion provide incentives to my fighter for playing the most recent released quests in his favorite destiny at whatever quest difficulty he chooses to play instead of providing incentives for running 1-3 year old quests in a poor destiny for his build on epic normal/hard.

There has to be some trade off, the system can't just be completely against the spirit of DnD which is about choices. There's really only one sphere that has nothing for casters and any non-caster can find a benefit in every sphere, in my opinion of course.

One thing that they should do with the addition to Epic TRing is to finish all spheres/destinies. It's just ridiculous that they keep giving us unfinished work, telling us they will finish it later, and then moving forward with new work instead of completing what they already started.

[Yaga_Nub]

..
Whatever happens, don't let epic TR benefits stack as high as heroic TR benefits. The 9 spellpen and 4 to (some) DCs you get for running the caster lives (5 to DCs if you go to the point of completionist) are gamebreaking to the point that first life DC casters are not even remotely close to viable in endgame content. Further insane stacking bonuses will widen the gap between those with time to grind and those without.
....

Those benefits should stack and they should make endgame comment much easier. The problem is that the quest developers now think that everyone is a triple completionist with all capped destinies and max twists and they are designing normal and hard level quests for that level of ability and then making EE insane because they think that only those types of toons want to run EE.

You should get a benefit for doing the work and if that benefit makes it so that you can burn through quests when others are dying then either don't run with them or help them get the same benefits that you currently enjoy.

[HuneyMunster]

In terms of Epic TR back to level 20.

Would I be assuming correctly that you would rebuild your character from level 1 to 20, so you are able to retrain your feats, ability and skill points?

[CaptainSpacePony]

Whatever happens, don't let epic TR benefits stack as high as heroic TR benefits. The 9 spellpen and 4 to (some) DCs you get for running the caster lives (5 to DCs if you go to the point of completionist) are gamebreaking to the point that first life DC casters are not even remotely close to viable in endgame content. Further insane stacking bonuses will widen the gap between those with time to grind and those without.



Excellent point SG.

[SirValentine]

Growth without stacking:

Divine:
Grants empower healing, empower, maximise.
or
Mental toughness, improved mental toughness, epic mental toughness.

Martial:
Grants Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting.
or
Grants Two handed fighting, improved two handed fighting, greater two handed fighting.

Primal:
Grants Power attack, cleave, great cleave.
or
Point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot.

Arcane:
Grants Spell pen, improved spell pen, epic spell pen.
or
Spellfocus X, greater spell focus X, Epic spell focus X.

I like this idea. Would really increase flexibility on feat-starved classes, without actually granting strictly more powerful abilities. I would certainly do some Epic TRs for some of these.

[SirValentine]

Completionist going passive needs to happen, totally agree! But stacking 3 times? No.


Agreed.

[SirValentine]

The whole beauty of TRing is that you get a FREE feat (no one really cares about the purchaseable ones).


Quite a few of the purchasable ones are junk, but that's not universally true. DC casters routinely take the Wizard purchasable feat.

[Soulfurnace]

Maybe this idea is absurd, but how about give us a poll?

Love it, like it, it's okay - but needs work, don't like it, kill it with fire.

[Singular]

Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Brilliant! Love the idea!

I am an xp-hore. I have real troubles questing without earning xp - the reason I did not like epic prior to epic destinies, and the reason I began TRing when most of my EDs were maxed, providing me with the highest benefit I could use for my character.

But I LOVE epic quests and being 20+ level - now you have made that possible, b/c I'll be able to TR over and over, maintaining my epic status and hard won ED's.

Thank you!!!

[dlsidhe]

Growth without stacking:

Divine:
Grants empower healing, empower, maximise.
or
Mental toughness, improved mental toughness, epic mental toughness.

Martial:
Grants Two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, greater two weapon fighting.
or
Grants Two handed fighting, improved two handed fighting, greater two handed fighting.

Primal:
Grants Power attack, cleave, great cleave.
or
Point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot.

Arcane:
Grants Spell pen, improved spell pen, epic spell pen.
or
Spellfocus X, greater spell focus X, Epic spell focus X.

This. So totally this. So insanely, totally this.

Seriously, I hate grinding destinies so much that I only have one max'd on my main. If I could free up multiple feats, I'd grind destinies into infinity.

As an example, just taking the divine idea: I'd take max, empower, empower heal as a ED:PL. I don't even have empower heal right now, so that is one free feat and two free slots, which I could use to take SF/GSF:Necro and put more power behind destruction, or take heavy armor and tower shield proficiency for more defense. Now, if I went to Arcane, I could free up even more feats - but to get there, I'll have to go through martial - so I might as well have the TWF chain for flavor. Then free up 5 feat slots, and get one free feat if I took both suggested arcane feat chain past lives. Adding the divine ED:PL suggestion, that means of the 10 standard, universal feats we currently have, I could swap out 7 of them and still have all my current abilities.

Without stacking, that would result in vastly more power.

[BOgre]

Without stacking, that would result in vastly more power.

Which is exactly why this and other powerful ideas should NOT happen. When I read that suggestion it was obvious that it made perfect sense. But it's also a great way to bring an unprecedented jump in powercreep. I don't think we need to set a precedent for builds with 12 extra feats.

I still think some form of Twist grants makes the most sense for a good reward without excessive creep.

[dlsidhe]

Which is exactly why this and other powerful ideas should NOT happen. When I read that suggestion it was obvious that it made perfect sense. But it's also a great way to bring an unprecedented jump in powercreep. I don't think we need to set a precedent for builds with 12 extra feats.

I still think some form of Twist grants makes the most sense for a good reward without excessive creep.

I disagree with twists, mainly because I could get all the twists I need as it stands in the current system, but I do see your point with powercreep.

What if, rather than granting a full chain of feats, you got to purchase one feat from a set assigned to each sphere, each with a set amount of - err - "ED Tokens" gained through experience? Say, as an example:

Divine: Empower Heal, Improved Turning, Extra Turning, Quicken, Guardian Angel, Holy Weapons, Spell Power: Positive, Spell Power: Light, Spell Power: Negative, Spell Power: Fire, Skill Focus: Heal, Epic Skill Focus: Heal, Turn Undead, Smite Evil, Magical Training, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen (requires purchasing spell pen), Epic Spell Pen (requires purchasing prereqs), Empower, Maximize, Heighten

Martial: Shield Mastery, Improved Shield Mastery, Improved Trip, Tower Shield Proficiency, Combat Expertise, Improved Sunder, Stunning Blow, DR Breaker, Blinding Speed, Martial Weapon Proficiency, Power Attack, Cleave (requires PA purchase), Great Cleave (requires prereqs purchases), TWF chain (purchased individually), THF chain (purchased individually)

Arcane: any spell focus, any greater spell focus (prereq: purchasing the spell focus), any epic spell focus (must have purchased the two prereqs), Spell Power: insert element, Spell Power: Force, Spell Power: Sonic, Hell Ball, Epic Mage Armor, Magical Training, Spell Pen, Greater Spell Pen (requires purchasing spell pen), Epic Spell Pen (requires purchasing prereqs), Proficiency with Crossbows, Rune Arm Use, Empower, Maximize, Heighten

Primal: Power Attack, Cleave (requires PA purchase), Great Cleave (requires prereqs purchases), TWF chain (purchased individually), THF chain (purchased individually), Precision, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (each requiring prereqs purchased as epic TR feats), Natural Fighting, Empower, Maximize, Heighten, Empower Heal, Blinding Speed, Perfect THF, Perfect TWF, Frog Spell, Wild Shape (each feat requires purchase of previous set - bear, wolf, dire bear, winter wolf, elementals), PS, IPS (requires precise shot purchase)

The more powerful the feat, the more extra XP you have to gain for it.

[Systern]

Big Question: Are the EPLs going to kick in at level 20 or level 1? Or combinations (Yaaa confuse the coding!) If we're buying them with currency, more expensive ones can be Level 1 Global, and other cheaper ones can be Level 20+ Epic only.


Arcane: +4% Lore crit chance (x3 to %12)
Martial: +5 PRR, +1 Max Dodge
Primal: +3% Flurry (Doubleshot/doublestrike)
Divine: +3% Healing Amp


I can understand wanting to simplify the coding and keep with the "Epic doesn't impact Heroic" theme, but from a Character's perspective their life goes from 1-28, not 1-20 and 20-28... There's a total experience in there that I'd kind of want to see benefit all future progress. I don't like the schism between heroic and epic. If ETR really doesn't impact Heroic, then there's no incentive to go from 1-28. There will be players that will just grind out the Heroic lives, and then do ETR:20s and claim this is more efficient of their time. There will be flower sniffers that just do heroic TRs, filling out their synergistic destiny, until they've hit cap on Karma/Sphere points and then do an ETR:1. What Incentive is there to go from 1 to ETR:1 back-to-back if the EPLs don't effect the heroic game?

[Silverleafeon]

Regardless of what happens in or of a result of this thread, some things are constant:

The level cap will be raised to 30 next year.

The next Xpack will grant epic destiny levels 6 thru 10.

Loot and tomes will continue to scale with character levels.

DMs must entertain and challenge their players.

Raids and quests must offer sufficient challenge to remain worthy of our interest.

[Drwaz99]

Regardless of what happens in or of a result of this thread, some things are constant:

The next Xpack will grant epic destiny levels 6 thru 10.



And you know this is a constant how? Or is it conjecture just like most everything else you state as fact? No where that I can find looking back 6 months is this stated as a "Constant" all that has been posted is you making suggestions.

[CaptainSpacePony]

NO. Just NO.

Because we love playing the game doesn't mean there isn't some parts of it that we are sick of. If they got rid of every quest between levels 1 and 10, I wouldn't shed a tear because I've playing them literally thousands of times.

<snip>
Don't get me wrong, I'm going to do epic TRing when it gets here but I'll have a small tear running down my cheek thinking about what the game could be compared to what the producers continually give us.

I understand your position Yaga, and we'll have agree to disagree agreeably (on the part I quoted--I think we almost agree on the snipped part). TRs and completionists seem commonplace now, but those are real achievements that mean the player sunk something significant (too much?) into the game. Much more than merely capping a 1st life character. Epic Completionist should be achievable, but it should be a significant accomplishment that is noteworthy on a grand scale. I believe TRing to lvl 20 will water it down too much.

[Tscheuss]

This is really looking like a good thing, as evidenced by all of the positive responses. Nice to know our input from the 'other' ETR thread was valued. :D

ETA: Really awesome, almost every on-topic post is positive. *\o/*

[samthedagger]

Plz make so only WF can TR into bladeforged, Only humans into shader kai, only elves into morning lords, humans into purple dragon knights. Come up with other iconics that only dwraves, drow, and hobbits can TR in to.I say this with all due respect but... you're nuts.

[Delacroix21]

Yes, or whatever Epic Destiny you prefer in each sphere.


I like this part, as it gives some flexibility in terms of leveling.


BTW what news on the "XP Bank" feature at level cap to use towards TRs? To encourage more play at level cap. There is more and more incentive to play 1-20 (and soon 20-28 or 30) but very little to remain at 28 or 30. Can we get an XP bank to bank XP at 28 or 30 to use towards TRs?

[EllisDee37]

BTW what news on the "XP Bank" feature at level cap to use towards TRs? To encourage more play at level cap. There is more and more incentive to play 1-20 (and soon 20-28 or 30) but very little to remain at 28 or 30. Can we get an XP bank to bank XP at 28 or 30 to use towards TRs?Obviously I have no official information, but that plan is almost certainly scrapped. The XP Bank was to reward you for the loss of destiny xp. Since now we won't be losing destiny xp, there's no penalty that needs to be made up for with the XP bank.

[Crabbadabba]

Just to get this out of the way, I love the idea of calling the "sphere points" "Karma" (Rinnaldo you are a genius)


As to the whining (yes, you are) about leveling in off destinies just stop. It hurts my head. I would LOVE to level up a fighter while simultaneously getting the benefits for leveling every other class in the game...But that would be silly. The idea that you can glean additional knowledge from activities outside your main focus is both realistic and an awesome game dynamic. Just because I hated geography doesn't mean I'm not better for sitting through the lectures.

When I play games I'm a 1 toon guy, I want to focus my time on my main only, and Until DDO I only played dwarf barbarian (or the closest to it the game would allow) but with DDO's unique TR system, I branched out and played a fighter, then a paladin, then I got crazy and rocked a bard and cleric life. The last two are VERY counter to my normal play style, it was more difficult and I had a steep learning curve to overcome and that made some things perhaps "less fun" but I have such a better understanding of those classes, what they can do and where they can be utilized I am PERSONALLY a better DDO player for it, and low and behold my toon receives past life's and steps toward completionist that make HIM a better toon for the learning experience. This is brilliant, period.

(*note, in this paragraph "class" means school, not DDO classes) Nobody requires you to TR, nobody asks you to run off destinies, but if you want the "knowledge and experience" from bard school, you have to GO to bard school. If you want the twists you have to be a scholar in more than 1 class. Even if you take nothing from that class (I.E. a twists from that ED) just the act of taking the class makes you a smarter person.



SO MUCH THIS! I have played all the EDs on my melee and while some are better than others for her, there is something interesting in each.

Dont you remember we did most of this junk without ED's and epic levels? A level 20 barb in Fatesinger is equal to or greater than the level 20 barb who did all the content X months ago. Not to mention with the increasing power of our toons, content is MUCH easier. doing EH VON raid? pick a junk desteny for an easy 70-100k. Getting close to a high slayer pay out? grab your junker and take the XP. Basically I'm saying you can bypass a good deal of off-desteny grinding if it really is so "painful" to you.

Also with new XP ransack whatnot, you have even MORE opportunity to easily level off destenies.

YOU DO NOT GET THE BENEFITS IF YOU DON'T PUT IN THE WORK! I find it a little upsetting people feel justified in disagreeing with that point. Like Gavroshe was saying, if you don't go to class, you don't get the diploma. what kind of person asks for otherwise? you don't NEED ED's to rock, and even more so you don't need to max them all to rock. If the effort to earn the abilities isnt worth the grind, don't do it.

-Crabble

[Silverleafeon]

This is really looking like a good thing, as evidenced by all of the positive responses. Nice to know our input from the 'other' ETR thread was valued. :D

ETA: Really awesome, almost every on-topic post is positive. *\o/*

Indeed.

[arkonas]

Interesting idea.

Or create a past life enhancement tree and let us spend point in it, but your idea is probably better.

I'll believe it when I see it, however I have seem many things this day already that fall under that category....

i actually like this idea actually. i think they could code a heroic tr tree or even an epic tr tree as well that you only gain access from tring. get so many points etc for the tree per tr life. just an idea.

[redoubt]

On the whole, this new paradigm is one that does not have me planning to depart. (Under the previous proposition, I had assumed I'd quit when U20 hit.) This one sounds much, much better.


No matter how many times we explain it, the devs seem wholly unaware that running in off-destiny is actually unfun. A chore that we force ourselves to do.

They seem to have built almost all of epic play around running in an off destiny: Epic Feats from a sphere other than your primary one, Epic TR points from a sphere other than your primary one, and of course, fate points.

I like everything about this game, heck I even like Threnal, with one exception: Playing for even 1 minute outside of my chosen destiny. Much like my wizard would not like to be forced to use the barbarian enhancement trees, but instead prefers to use the wizard trees.

I truly do not think they are aware how unfun leveling off destinies is because the sum total of their personal experience with doing so involves talking to that trainer dude in the dojo.

I agree with you and Matt. Running in the off destinies is not the same fun level as running in the primary destiny. I, like many people, know well the meaning of "warrior of Dun'robar, attack!". But the only reason I know it is the need to fill out off destinies. I gained my primary destiny by just running quests like usual. Even a couple of the off destinies that are similar I could earn while running quests. The off destinies that were way off, like arcane destinies on a melee character, I just farmed dun'robar because they were not fun to run in.

[Qhualor]

SO MUCH THIS! I have played all the EDs on my melee and while some are better than others for her, there is something interesting in each.

Dont you remember we did most of this junk without ED's and epic levels? A level 20 barb in Fatesinger is equal to or greater than the level 20 barb who did all the content X months ago. Not to mention with the increasing power of our toons, content is MUCH easier. doing EH VON raid? pick a junk desteny for an easy 70-100k. Getting close to a high slayer pay out? grab your junker and take the XP. Basically I'm saying you can bypass a good deal of off-desteny grinding if it really is so "painful" to you.

Also with new XP ransack whatnot, you have even MORE opportunity to easily level off destenies.

YOU DO NOT GET THE BENEFITS IF YOU DON'T PUT IN THE WORK! I find it a little upsetting people feel justified in disagreeing with that point. Like Gavroshe was saying, if you don't go to class, you don't get the diploma. what kind of person asks for otherwise? you don't NEED ED's to rock, and even more so you don't need to max them all to rock. If the effort to earn the abilities isnt worth the grind, don't do it.

-Crabble

I have no problem leveling through an off destiny for access to a twist, but I have a problem leveling through off destinies just for fate points when I wont even twist anything out of it. that is not my kind of fun.

[Hawkwier]

I have no problem leveling through an off destiny for access to a twist, but I have a problem leveling through off destinies just for fate points when I wont even twist anything out of it. that is not my kind of fun.


I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E


First off, this looks like good news! :)

I don't TR as a rule but epic TR might prove of interest...

Anyway, you asked for suggestions for reward. How about letting us select any feat from the classes in a sphere without prereqs?

Might be OP but we are talking about earning a ton of exp to qualify.

Also, while you're about it, how about another destiny to make capping them all worthwhile from a fate-point perspective? :)

[Crabbadabba]

I have no problem leveling through an off destiny for access to a twist, but I have a problem leveling through off destinies just for fate points when I wont even twist anything out of it. that is not my kind of fun.

A grind is inherently "not fun", but what makes it worthwhile is the payout, be it loot, twists, fate points or otherwise. If you wan't the Quiver of Alacrity you need to grind out Abbot, asking for it to drop in House of Rusted Chains is nonsensical. The quiver, the fate points, and the twists are all luxury items you pay for with sweat.

It's never "fun" when an item you want is in a quest you don't, but you make choices how you want to spend your time. If payout is better than the grind (in your opinion), get to it. For me, Fate Points were worth playing in other destinies no question.

I'm not at all saying the new EPL system needs to follow the exact same format as off destinies, But your argument boils down to "I don't want to do what I need to to get the things I want".

Seriously, at least off destinies have a static, guaranteed success point. If I could get that bleepin quiver for ONLY the amount of time I spent tipping my off destinies to 5 I would be way ahead. Especially if I knew (only x more quests till I have it for sure!) Not to mention I can level off destinies on ANYTHING, vs standing around Necro for an abbot to fill/fail/refill/complete.

(I know some people/guilds can nofail Abbot in a flash, I'm not so lucky, but I only use that as an example because in MY toon's life Abbot has been the biggest time sink to date. yet I'll still hit 20 completions each life, wonder why God hates me, and start the grind again. Because I feel its worth the time.)

[sephiroth1084]

I'd prefer to not see epic TR become another case of numeric inflation the way that heroic TR is for the most part. Let's have them grant something more interesting than that!

Primal: Your successful attacks on a roll of 19-20/17-20/15-20 trigger a Vampirism effect. Whenever a creature fails its save against one of your spells, you have a 10/20/30% chance of gaining temporary HP equal to your character level.

Martial: The cooldowns on your tactical feats and activated attacks (granted by class features, enhancements, or epic destiny abilities) are reduced by 1/2/3 seconds, and you have a 5/10/15% chance to regenerate an action boost on a vorpal hit.

Divine: Whenever you heal another character with a single-target spell or ability, you regain 10/20/30% of the amount you healed for in HP. Your melee attacks and damaging spells cause evil creatures you strike to take a -1/2/3 penalty to fortification and saves, stacking up to 3 times (some language here about how long a stack lasts, not triggering more than once every X unity of time, etc...).

Arcane: Your spells gain additional effects on criticals: Ice spells cause the Freezing Ice condition for 2/4/6 seconds; fire spells cause 2/4/6 stacks of Inferno (see AA Inferno Shot), lightning spells <do something>; acid spells cause 2/4/6 stacks of <something similar to Inferno>; force spells knock affected creatures prone for 6 seconds on a failed save vs. the spell's DC (or DC appropriate for its level and type) +1/2/3 on the DC; negative energy spells cause a slowing of a creature's attacks by 5/10/15% for 6 seconds; sonic spells cause creatures to be stunned for 3/6/9 seconds.

Some of these may be too strong, or too narrow, perhaps, but I'd rather see stuff along these lines than the stuff like "gain X bonus to Y statistic." Sure, we all want more healing amp, attack, damage, AC, PRR, dodge, spellpower, and DCs, but the game doesn't scale well to the inflated numbers we have now, let alone adjust to accommodate characters at the different ends of the spectrum as far as investment goes.

[Charononus]

I'd prefer to not see epic TR become another case of numeric inflation the way that heroic TR is for the most part. Let's have them grant something more interesting than that!

Primal: Your successful attacks on a roll of 19-20/17-20/15-20 trigger a Vampirism effect. Whenever a creature fails its save against one of your spells, you have a 10/20/30% chance of gaining temporary HP equal to your character level. 0 carrot, absolutely worthless. Maybe supreme vampirism 100% chance of healing character level hp per hit not effected by hamp.


Martial: The cooldowns on your tactical feats and activated attacks (granted by class features, enhancements, or epic destiny abilities) are reduced by 1/2/3 seconds, and you have a 5/10/15% chance to regenerate an action boost on a vorpal hit.
meh wouldn't motivate me to get them except for some kind of epic completionist feat.


Divine: Whenever you heal another character with a single-target spell or ability, you regain 10/20/30% of the amount you healed for in HP. Your melee attacks and damaging spells cause evil creatures you strike to take a -1/2/3 penalty to fortification and saves, stacking up to 3 times (some language here about how long a stack lasts, not triggering more than once every X unity of time, etc...). maybe


Arcane: Your spells gain additional effects on criticals: Ice spells cause the Freezing Ice condition for 2/4/6 seconds; fire spells cause 2/4/6 stacks of Inferno (see AA Inferno Shot), lightning spells <do something>; acid spells cause 2/4/6 stacks of <something similar to Inferno>; force spells knock affected creatures prone for 6 seconds on a failed save vs. the spell's DC (or DC appropriate for its level and type) +1/2/3 on the DC; negative energy spells cause a slowing of a creature's attacks by 5/10/15% for 6 seconds; sonic spells cause creatures to be stunned for 3/6/9 seconds. My only worry is that your force dc. mass frog and hellball show the devs have no idea what useful dc's are because those epic feat spells can not ever be made to hit reliably no matter how much wis/int/cha you get for ee.

[Mithavenger]

So many people are going yay, epic tr's but now you see why they are phasing token purchase heart of woods and other similar items out as then they make it so you have to purchase any tring item(from the ddo store) so they make more money and they likely will make any epic tr's an earned or purchased bonus

[Charononus]

So many people are going yay, epic tr's but now you see why they are phasing token purchase heart of woods and other similar items out as then they make it so you have to purchase any tring item(from the ddo store) so they make more money and they likely will make any epic tr's an earned or purchased bonus

Make em store only and it's still better than the last etr idea they had, I'll just have to favor farm more to etr then.

[Mithavenger]

Make em store only and it's still better than the last etr idea they had, I'll just have to favor farm more to etr then.

But by making it favor farmed, that also requires more packs purchased, per account so it is still a money thing yet they do nothing to justify the money we put in

[Charononus]

But by making it favor farmed, that also requires more packs purchased, per account so it is still a money thing yet they do nothing to justify the money we put in

I already have all the packs, it literally will not mean a dime more from me if they do it this way.

[GeoffWatson]

I'd like to see extra Twists of Fate available, even if they are only tier 1. Extra Fate points would be useless without extra twists.

One important question: Are the Epic Past Life feats granted at 1st level, or 20th level?

Geoff.

[Book_O_Dragons]

Autogrant first please, feats are precious.

Well, if they did stack completionist feat for multiple completionist, it would be more reasonable to assume something like:
+2 ~ Completionist earned once
Upgrade to +3 ~ Completionist earned twice
Upgrade to +4 Completionist earned thrice


Epic Completionist probably should take a different approach such as:
Extra Twist Slot tier two ~ Epic Completionist earned once
Upgrade Extra Twist Slot to tier three ~ Epic Completionist earned twice
Upgrade Extra Twist Slot to tier four ~ Epic Completionist earned thrice


I might be willing to accept a boost to heroic completionist such as is described but only for the skill portion of the feat. I fear that any increase to the ability score portion of the feat will be too powerful. The only other feats that increase ability scores are epic feats that only increase a single ability score a single point each time the feat is taken. If the completionist feat is made an auto grant It will be game-breaking.

I am extremely wary of extra twists of fate particularly tier 4 twists. I think under no circumstances should another tier 4 twist be made available except by spending fate points. I would limit the absolute maximum of a new twist to what you have fate points for or tier 2 if fate points do not need to be spent.

[Silverleafeon]

,,,,hellball show the devs have no idea what useful dc's are because those epic feat spells can not ever be made to hit reliably no matter how much wis/int/cha you get for ee.Fawngate uses the cha version of Hellball.
She is a favored soul whose base charisma is 09.
She kills large groups of EE rogue typeswith bladebarrier combined with multiple castings of Hellball.
They never evade it, ever.

My opinion is that they decided the DC was too low, and they removed the save,
particularly since with the save it was a rather expensive poor preforming spell.

WAI?
I hope so, if it every gets changed, Fawngate will probably return to Forced Escape quickly.

I might be willing to accept a boost to heroic completionist such as is described but only for the skill portion of the feat. I fear that any increase to the ability score portion of the feat will be too powerful. The only other feats that increase ability scores are epic feats that only increase a single ability score a single point each time the feat is taken. If the completionist feat is made an auto grant It will be game-breaking.
Honestly considering Fawngate get nothing extra atm for triple completionist, +2 ability and +4 skills would be nice treat, particularly if it was auto granted.

I am extremely wary of extra twists of fate particularly tier 4 twists. I think under no circumstances should another tier 4 twist be made available except by spending fate points. I would limit the absolute maximum of a new twist to what you have fate points for or tier 2 if fate points do not need to be spent.
I could go with fate points spent on it, but I sure would like to see two more slot available to earn somehow.
A lot of the really nice twists are tier one, most players if given a fourth or fifth twist that required fate points to unlock, would put tier one twists into them.

Many players would like to see something like, single epic tr opens up a fourth twist slot.
{A nod to those that TR rarely.}
Epic Completionist granting a fifth twist slot that would be nice.
{A nod to those that TR lots.}
The math on Fate Points would balance things out fairly well.

Of course that leaves out multiple epic completionist.


A small bonus for multiple completionist types would be fine with me.
Nothing game breaking needed here, just enjoying myself anyway.
A small tribute would be cool, but I'll take whatever size bone they throw.
My main concern is lack of space to take past life type feats.

[Qhualor]

So many people are going yay, epic tr's but now you see why they are phasing token purchase heart of woods and other similar items out as then they make it so you have to purchase any tring item(from the ddo store) so they make more money and they likely will make any epic tr's an earned or purchased bonus

whatever they do, it will be store and earned TR item in game just like hearts of wood are for heroic. that's how they do things by offering both. you will either choose to grind for some kind of epic TR heart of wood or you can buy one. store only = P2W and DDO isn't a straight up P2W game as long as they offer choices like that.

[Qhualor]

I'd like to see extra Twists of Fate available, even if they are only tier 1. Extra Fate points would be useless without extra twists.

One important question: Are the Epic Past Life feats granted at 1st level, or 20th level?

Geoff.

extra twists and/or be able to go higher up in tiers for twists is what I would like to see.

[Tscheuss]

Fawngate uses the cha version of Hellball.
She is a favored soul whose base charisma is 09.
She kills large groups of EE rogue typeswith bladebarrier combined with multiple castings of Hellball.
They never evade it, ever.

My opinion is that they decided the DC was too low, and they removed the save,
particularly since with the save it was a rather expensive poor preforming spell.

WAI?
I hope so, if it every gets changed, Fawngate will probably return to Forced Escape quickly.

Honestly considering Fawngate get nothing extra atm for triple completionist, +2 ability and +4 skills would be nice treat, particularly if it was auto granted.

I could go with fate points spent on it, but I sure would like to see two more slot available to earn somehow.
A lot of the really nice twists are tier one, most players if given a fourth or fifth twist that required fate points to unlock, would put tier one twists into them.

Many players would like to see something like, single epic tr opens up a fourth twist slot.
{A nod to those that TR rarely.}
Epic Completionist granting a fifth twist slot that would be nice.
{A nod to those that TR lots.}
The math on Fate Points would balance things out fairly well.

Of course that leaves out multiple epic completionist.


A small bonus for multiple completionist types would be fine with me.
Nothing game breaking needed here, just enjoying myself anyway.
A small tribute would be cool, but I'll take whatever size bone they throw.
My main concern is lack of space to take past life type feats.

Triple completionists should be greeted in public areas by random npc's:
'Hail Great One. You honor us with your presence.' ;)

[mikarddo]

With four spheres and tripple etr in each simply award one faith point per etr and one extra twist slot every six times you etr.The new slots follow the standard cost pattern so they are 4 and 5 faith points respectively to unlock at tier one.Nice, easy and simple yet desireable without bring crazy overpowered.

[Stoner81]

As I side note... I really hope that all these will just need a True Druidic Heart of Wood, and the option we pick when talking to Kruz or the Fatespinner determines the type of TR. I'd really hate to see a "Truer Druidic Heart of Wood" for the level 20 ETR, and a "Truest Druidic Heart of Wood" for the Level 1 ETR (available in-game for 50 Heroic Commendations or 7995 TP in the store!).

My suggestion for this...

True Druidic Heart Of Wood

Leave the current mechanic as it is so that people can do a regular TR once they reach level 20 and beyond, this would of course require no work to implement since the mechanic already exists.

Epic Druidic Heart Of Wood

Must be used at level 28 in order to TR back to level 20 (epic past life only) or back to level 1 (to get both epic and heroic past life), this can be gotten from the store for TP or buying turning in 25-30 Tokens Of The Twelve (25 tokens for level 20 and 30 tokens to go back to level 1).

Now this would require 1 new item to be created which is obviously some work and the extra options would need to be added to Kruz as well as the actual mechanics, but I think this would be a fairly simple (no I am not a programmer nor have I ever been one) way to implement the changes with as little work as possible. This system would also be easy to understand, you want to do a regular TR then use the normal system, if you are in epics and want to do a normal TR the same thing applies. ONLY the Epic TR would need the new heart type and has "Epic" in the hearts name to make it easy to understand and clarify what is needed.

This is just a quick idea I had so not really much thought gone in to it.

Stoner81.

[slarden]

I have to applaud the dev team for this design. I really like the proposed changes much better than the old proposal.

I like the passive past life feats rather than having to use a feat slot. I also like the option to choose an additional past life feat with a feat slot. I hope this approach continues with epic TR. The auto-granted feats are a big draw because regardless of how small the benefit is- it stacks and doesn't take up a feat or gear slot.

[Yaga_Nub]

Triple completionists should be greeted in public areas by random npc's:
'Hail Great One. You honor us with your presence.' ;)

No. There shouldn't be a reward just because someone wasted too much of their life playing this game.

[Oxarhamar]

My suggestion for this...

True Druidic Heart Of Wood

Leave the current mechanic as it is so that people can do a regular TR once they reach level 20 and beyond, this would of course require no work to implement since the mechanic already exists.

Epic Druidic Heart Of Wood

Must be used at level 28 in order to TR back to level 20 (epic past life only) or back to level 1 (to get both epic and heroic past life), this can be gotten from the store for TP or buying turning in 25-30 Tokens Of The Twelve (25 tokens for level 20 and 30 tokens to go back to level 1).

Now this would require 1 new item to be created which is obviously some work and the extra options would need to be added to Kruz as well as the actual mechanics, but I think this would be a fairly simple (no I am not a programmer nor have I ever been one) way to implement the changes with as little work as possible. This system would also be easy to understand, you want to do a regular TR then use the normal system, if you are in epics and want to do a normal TR the same thing applies. ONLY the Epic TR would need the new heart type and has "Epic" in the hearts name to make it easy to understand and clarify what is needed.

This is just a quick idea I had so not really much thought gone in to it.

Stoner81.

This would be fine by me IF Tokens and or Token Fragments dropped in all Epic quests.

[EllisDee37]

My first thought on how to grind for ETR hearts would be 20 greater tokens of the twelve. Seems like the most logical choice; quest tokens for heroic tr, raid tokens for epic tr.

Then I remembered that most epic content doesn't have tokens anymore, and then I thought about what you get from epic raids, and my heart sank. If that's what it costs to epic tr I may never do it even once.

[BOgre]

As I side note... I really hope that all these will just need a True Druidic Heart of Wood, and the option we pick when talking to Kruz or the Fatespinner determines the type of TR. I'd really hate to see a "Truer Druidic Heart of Wood" for the level 20 ETR, and a "Truest Druidic Heart of Wood" for the Level 1 ETR (available in-game for 50 Heroic Commendations or 7995 TP in the store!).

The fact people are already mis-calling this ETR is part of the problem. It's Epic Reincarnation, not Epic True Reinc, same it wasn't Lesser TR, or Greater TR like people were always getting mixed up with.

So, seeing as how the team has already called it ER (not ETR), I'm guessing it will need an Epic Druidic Heart. Now, what'd be nice is if Hearts got put into the Daily Dice rolls, and if they'd also have a crafting recipe added to them from Cannith and E* challenges (like with tokens for True Hearts)

[EllisDee37]

The fact people are already mis-calling this ETR is part of the problem. It's Epic Reincarnation, not Epic True Reinc, same it wasn't Lesser TR, or Greater TR like people were always getting mixed up with.The distinction between TR and LR is this:

TR starts you back at a lower level. You give up xp to start over.
LR brings you back to your current level. No xp or levels are lost.

Epic reincarnation starts you back at a lower level, and you give up epic xp to start over on epic levels.

Therefore it is perfectly consistent to refer to it as ETR.

[PsychoBlonde]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

Hah, you guys took my suggestion. Yeah, forcing an "epic TR" to also be a heroic TR was a mistake, but this new plan sounds a lot better and much more generous. Looking forward to more details now.

[BOgre]

The distinction between TR and LR is this:

TR starts you back at a lower level. You give up xp to start over.
LR brings you back to your current level. No xp or levels are lost.

Epic reincarnation starts you back at a lower level, and you give up epic xp to start over on epic levels.

Therefore it is perfectly consistent to refer to it as ETR.

My response to that is in the thread's title. Epic Reincarnation. Not Epic True Reincarnation.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

I'm not sure I've read this correctly, any of this. But I think there needs to be some clarification in the terminology.

If a character is not reincarnating back to Heroic level 1, it is not a True Reincarnation.
If the Iconoics are not going to be able to reincarnate to a level 1 Heroic, it should be called Iconic Reincarnation, or something, anything, other than TR.


Same goes for Epic, but it does seem that the Devs are referring to it as Epic Reincarnation themselves, so I hope everyone else can start doing that.


Back to the Iconics, if I can't end up doing a proper TR, from level 1 with my Iconics, I'm going to be more than a little angry. With myself for being stupid enough to pay for something clearly not finished, and Turbine for changing the game in this way and being unable to even hint at what the plan was going to be.

[Qhualor]

I'm not sure I've read this correctly, any of this. But I think there needs to be some clarification in the terminology.

If a character is not reincarnating back to Heroic level 1, it is not a True Reincarnation.
If the Iconoics are not going to be able to reincarnate to a level 1 Heroic, it should be called Iconic Reincarnation, or something, anything, other than TR.


Same goes for Epic, but it does seem that the Devs are referring to it as Epic Reincarnation themselves, so I hope everyone else can start doing that.


Back to the Iconics, if I can't end up doing a proper TR, from level 1 with my Iconics, I'm going to be more than a little angry. With myself for being stupid enough to pay for something clearly not finished, and Turbine for changing the game in this way and being unable to even hint at what the plan was going to be.

since Iconics are given enough xp to level to 15, I would assume a TR for them would be back to level 15? going back to level 1 would be.. what? to have an Iconic TR people would have to choose not to level to 15? confusing I think how it should be done with them.

[MeliCat]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Earworm - it's one of those annoying songs that you can't get out of your head, at least until you sleep, song does stacking +1 all stats and skills to allies and -1 all stats and skills to enemies until rest. (Or something like that... I just like the idea of an Earworm bard song... and just think, you could indeed use a song with a really annoying catchy hook like Call me Baby or something :D )

[dunklezhan]

Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie.

That's The Major to you, sonny-tree. :p

[Oxarhamar]

since Iconics are given enough xp to level to 15, I would assume a TR for them would be back to level 15? going back to level 1 would be.. what? to have an Iconic TR people would have to choose not to level to 15? confusing I think how it should be done with them.

Now we can not say for certain since no new info on Iconic TR has been released however

the original proposal for Iconics was:::

Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15

I would guess based on this if you TRed an Iconic into a non Iconic class you would start at lvl 1 and if you TR and Iconic into an Iconic again you start at lvl 1+enough xp to take you to lvl 15 the way Iconics currently work

***this is mostly guess work based on the way Iconics work now and the original info released on Iconics

[Daine]

Karma?

Points earned while you are fulfilling your destiny, so that in a new life you can alter your destiny...

I like this name for the points system.

[Tscheuss]

I like this name for the points system.

I like it, too. Can we put it up for a vote?

[Stoner81]

This would be fine by me IF Tokens and or Token Fragments dropped in all Epic quests.

Very valid point and this should be addressed and by that I mean it exactly as you say, all Epic quests should drop fragments and the tokens could be available as a chain end reward or something just so as they are not as easy as XP to come by so to speak or something similar.

As for Iconics they do present a problem in them starting at level 15, TR in and out of them could cause some headaches (maybe) for coding it together to get it working with the current system. I strongly feel that keeping the whole TR system (be it Epic, Heroic or Iconic) as simple as possible will result in fewer bugs and be much easier to implement and easier for players to understand and use. For this reason I would suggest the following in addition to my previous idea (https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425596-Paradigm-Shift-how-we-are-looking-at-Epic-Reincarnation?p=5101854&viewfull=1#post5101854):

Iconics

Basically the same as above (see link in this post), having Iconics start at level 1 for a full Epic and Heroic TR would mean far less coding work since the code already exist and it would (in theory) simply need the Iconics adding to the list of classes which can be TR'd in to and out of (also making sure that they can be LR'd too).

However, people are used to Iconics being able to start at level 15 so forcing them back to level 1/level 20 could well be an rather unwelcome idea to say the least but of course these are just ideas nothing more so please be gentle with me lol! :D

EDIT - I will give some thought on Epic Past Life Feats in the morning it's well past my bed time now (4:18AM :eek:)

Stoner81.

[Daine]

My first thought on how to grind for ETR hearts would be 20 greater tokens of the twelve. Seems like the most logical choice; quest tokens for heroic tr, raid tokens for epic tr.

Then I remembered that most epic content doesn't have tokens anymore, and then I thought about what you get from epic raids, and my heart sank. If that's what it costs to epic tr I may never do it even once.

Tokens of the Twelve only drop in Ebberon and wouldn't make sense in Forgotten realms Dungeons.

Now if had Tokens of the Harpers for Epic Reincarnation in Forgotten Realms raids that would work for me. The Harpers don't like power accumulation, are big fans of you knowing your own past, and seek a balance between many forces, so kicking you back to the start of your Epic levels to experience a things from a different viewpoint might just work for them.

[Oxarhamar]

Tokens of the Twelve only drop in Ebberon and wouldn't make sense in Forgotten realms Dungeons.

Now if had Tokens of the Harpers for Epic Reincarnation in Forgotten Realms raids that would work for me. The Harpers don't like power accumulation, are big fans of you knowing your own past, and seek a balance between many forces, so kicking you back to the start of your Epic levels to experience a things from a different viewpoint might just work for them.

Tokens don't drop in EGH so its already broken as far as lore is concerned.


Now if had Tokens of the Harpers for Epic Reincarnation in Forgotten Realms raids that would work for me. ????

so what your saying is only drop Epic Reincarnation tokens in CITW.

/NOT SIGNED

[Silverleafeon]

Epic Destiny Past Lives ideas to kick around.
Might not fit the upgrade 3x idea, or might need to be part of second / third time acquired.
Suggest eliminating all purchasable past life feat and recycle them into auto grants.

In all Spheres: Tier 1 twist slot added for twist from that sphere (not upgradeable)
(suggested earlier by others AND/OR expand twist slots in other ways such as 1? fate point per Epic Past Life)

Martial Sphere: Gain an extra ring item slot

Gain __ SLA cooldown X (reduced cooldown with multiple past lives)
Suggest using wizard / sorcerer / favored soul purchasable sla as an example removing 10/rest replacing with cooldown.

Primal/Completionist? Sphere Gain a Feat Slot?

Primal/Martial? Evasion

Arcane? Reduce cooldown / sp cost of Epic Spell such as Ruin / Hellball / Forced Escape / Whatever

Primal: Gain Cocoon as a Permanent Twist (cannot have ability twice)
(suggested elsewhere)

Divine: Reduce cooldown of Reborn in Light to 10 / 7.5 / 5 minutes.
(suggested elsewhere)

Arcane: Add 5 seconds to Draconic Fury duration (stackable 3x)

Divine: Excoriate has an additional 2% chance to stun (stackable 3x)

Divine: Lay to Rest and Judgement both have reduced cooldowns (12 / 9 / 6 seconds)

Divine: Apply either wis or cha for DCs and spell points
(already suggested elsewhere more than once)

All spheres: gain 1/2/3 fate points?

Primal: Gain Healing springs as an epic ability, if you already have healing springs gain another use of it (stackable 3x)

Divine: Gain Avenging Light epic ability. cannot gain multiple times.

Martial: Gain Toughness / Toughness / Epic Toughness feats
(probably overpowered for single past life 3x, consider other methods)

Arcane: Gain Metal Toughness / Improved Mental Toughness / Epic Mental Toughness feats
(probably overpowered for single past life 3x, consider other methods)

Don't be afraid to increase Epic Past Life feats even at the cost of not making Epic Completionist hard to obtain.
Consider making a Sphere Completionist instead of Epic Completionists ~ passive nice but not overpowered bonus
for having all Epic Past Lives in that particular sphere.

Arcane: Sigil of Battering Spellcraft gains 15 seconds to duration.

Arcane Sonic SLA (boosted by bard stuff?)

Arcane: Your bard songs take 1/5 of the normal time to sing.

Martial: Searching for Traps takes 1/5 of the normal time.

Divine/Arcane?: Cost to quicken spells is reduced by an additional 2/4/6
(Since quicken does not add to damage simply safe casting.)

[Silverleafeon]

Level 30, triple arcane destinies capped feat: Double Cast. When you cast a spell there is a X% chance of it being cast twice (same target).

[EllisDee37]

Level 30, triple arcane destinies capped feat: Double Cast. When you cast a spell there is a X% chance of it being cast twice (same target).Interesting, but not in love with the idea for DC casters. Could also become annoying for buffs.

[Daine]

Tokens don't drop in EGH so its already broken as far as lore is concerned.


Now if had Tokens of the Harpers for Epic Reincarnation in Forgotten Realms raids that would work for me. ????

so what your saying is only drop Epic Reincarnation tokens in CITW.

/NOT SIGNED

Well I fervantly hope there will be more raids and expect them to be in Forgotten Realms; even I wouldn't like to be stuck forever repeating CiTW!

[Silverleafeon]

I too am concerned that some form of in game grinding be provided for ER heart.

Trade in X? Heroic Commendations for ER heart?

If raids continue to deliver such?

Just a thought, maybe not a good one, but...

[Silverleafeon]

Interesting, but not in love with the idea for DC casters. Could also become annoying for buffs.
If the spell is cast the second time for free alongside the first spell, maybe that would work.
Might want a toggle?

Just an idea from an old D&D book, read long ago...

[BOgre]

If the spell is cast the second time for free alongside the first spell, maybe that would work.
Might want a toggle?

Just an idea from an old D&D book, read long ago...

it could be treated like a meta and show up in each hotbarred spell's meta custom select list.

[Oxarhamar]

Well I fervantly hope there will be more raids and expect them to be in Forgotten Realms; even I wouldn't like to be stuck forever repeating CiTW!

oh yeah we will likely get a couple more raids but, who knows... still I'd like to see whatever (ER tokens) drop in quests rather than raids.

dropping only in raids would create a mechanic where you had to flag and farm the raid either 1/3days or buy raid timer bypass.

I would much rather get on with my life than flag and farm raids. (by that I mean to ER by collecting ER tokens in quests)

[Oxarhamar]

I too am concerned that some form of in game grinding be provided for ER heart.

Trade in X? Heroic Commendations for ER heart?

If raids continue to deliver such?

Just a thought, maybe not a good one, but...

Yeah I wouldn't like Heroic Commendations to be turn in for ER heart. It would restrict us to farming the raids before ER.

Also the Heroic Commendations are tied to upgrading weapons and armor. I would hate to have to choose upgrade my items or ER heart

**I know Tokens of the twelve were used to upgrade epic items and for True Heart of Wood but, they did not drop only from 2 raids.

[Stoner81]

Here are some ideas that I had:

Martial

*Combat Grandmaster - Your skills in armed hand to hand combat is unmatched and knows no equal. You strike with alarming precision to maximise the amount of damage you do. As such you gain 0.5[W] to all attacks with melee and ranged weapons and gain +5 to your Tactical Combat DC's (stackable x3). This feat stacks with all other sources.

*From Beyond The Veil - You have spent so much time in the Shadows that you are partly stuck there. As a result you gain 5% Incorporeal permanately and automatically bypass the 50% miss chance for Ghosts, Wraiths and similar creatures (stackable x3). This feat stacks with all other sources to a maximum of 30%.

*One With The Universe - Through years of constant training you are now One With The Universe, this feat grants you +2 Ki on hit and +5 Ki on critical and stacks with all other sources which generate Ki (stackable x3). You now only lose Ki at the rate of 10 Ki once every 1 minute due to your heightend concentration, Ki loss is not stackable.

Arcane

Not really had much experience with Arcane types so hence nothing here at the moment.

Primal

*Blood Lust (part SLA) - Your fury knows no limits and you can truely give yourself over to your Blood Lust! This feat gives you 2 addittional uses of all Rage types and further increases your STR and CON by +2 while under the effects of Rage, this stacks with all other sources (stackable 3x).

In addition you gain the SLA Blood Lust, upon activation you instantly gain 5,000 temporary hit points and you also gain +10 STR & CON. All glancing blows do 100% damage with a 100% chance of triggering weapon effects. This can only be used 2 times per rest and has a cooldown of 5 minutes and it lasts 1 minute

*Natures Warrior - You have become a true warrior of nature! You gain +10 Universal Spellpower and +20 Spellpower to all elements such as Fire, Cold and Acid and all spell critical chances are increased by 2% (stackable 3x). The bonuses stack with all other sources.

Divine

Same as Arcane really not played with them much so don't really know that much about them :(

These could well be overpowered to be honest but at the end of the day characters are going to be level 30 come sometime next year which in D&D terms are more or less godly regions (afaik). These "Epic" past lives need to be exactly that "Epic" otherwise what is the point?

Stoner81.

[MichelOue]

Obviously, I think that you think that they think that we think, ....

where is the fun in all this^ ?? like wait a second here I have to understand something about fantasy role playing...
A+ how many clicks of the mouse, how many simultaneous interactions with players, and how real is the Artificial intelligence at defeating us in fun. In plots worthy of imagination free of reality....

Is this power_x_power per dollar thing really fun and liberating for the mind? how about reincarnating thru a mandatory random host?
Nope I do not understand the thread, reincarnation is still fiction right, or is that supercomputer calculating DNA possibilities...

nope call me thick as mud, or transparent as a Gibraltar rock, I don't need to get it for fun.

[patang01]

SO MUCH THIS! I have played all the EDs on my melee and while some are better than others for her, there is something interesting in each.

Dont you remember we did most of this junk without ED's and epic levels? A level 20 barb in Fatesinger is equal to or greater than the level 20 barb who did all the content X months ago. Not to mention with the increasing power of our toons, content is MUCH easier. doing EH VON raid? pick a junk desteny for an easy 70-100k. Getting close to a high slayer pay out? grab your junker and take the XP. Basically I'm saying you can bypass a good deal of off-desteny grinding if it really is so "painful" to you.

Also with new XP ransack whatnot, you have even MORE opportunity to easily level off destenies.

YOU DO NOT GET THE BENEFITS IF YOU DON'T PUT IN THE WORK! I find it a little upsetting people feel justified in disagreeing with that point. Like Gavroshe was saying, if you don't go to class, you don't get the diploma. what kind of person asks for otherwise? you don't NEED ED's to rock, and even more so you don't need to max them all to rock. If the effort to earn the abilities isnt worth the grind, don't do it.

-Crabble

It's entertainment that we pay for - not work.

Plus terrible design is terrible design. If time spent is the work you're looking for then there are better ways to design that 'work'.

[Rubbinns]

Also with new XP ransack whatnot, you have even MORE opportunity to easily level off destenies.
-Crabble

Actually it is worse for leveling your EDs than old system of Midler's/Rusted 3 minute runs over the course of a week to cap them. But, I kinda like the new xp mechanic allowing me to revisit lower levels farms during TRing.

[Oxarhamar]

Actually it is worse for leveling your EDs than old system of Midler's/Rusted 3 minute runs over the course of a week to cap them. But, I kinda like the new xp mechanic allowing me to revisit lower levels farms during TRing.

I agree which is why I took a pause from constant TRing and Maxed out all Destinies before U19 launched. Even with the risk of loosing all Destiny XP with the original proposal it was worth it to get them capped out the old window farm style.


Also as far as the repeat penalty being an issue it never really was

in Heroics on my life that was planned to go into Epics and cap my destinies I simply skipped every quest that had an epic version.

Sure this meant skipping all of VON all of Red Fens all of Giant Hold (those were the big ones for me) but, I found XP to cap heroic elsewhere

then in Epic levels I only ran each quest twice at max while leveling and at cap every epic quest offered full XP on every run.

The old system was far superior for capping ED

[Braegan]

While I see concerns brought up by other posters about stacking and power creep holding merit. These ED Past Lives are going to have to be really good if I am ever going to do them. I mean an ED gets capped at about 1.9 million xp, however to TR from 28 to 20 to 28 again is over 6 million xp. Not sure why we need to be 28 to Epic TR since the ED would have been long since capped.

[GoldyGopher]

Going to wonder something aloud (or in type)

Does this mean Epic Destiny Reincarnation is now being discussed?

[dlsidhe]

As an alternate idea for ED Sphere past lives, why not have them grant abilities that come from splashes of the related classes? Like so:

Divine Options:

Divine Grace: Add charisma bonus to saves.

Divine Wand Use: Grants use of all divine wands.

Lay On Hands (using character level)

Turn Undead (character level minus 4)

Wisdom for Spell DCs

Martial:

Evasion

Martial Weapon Proficiency

Heavy Armor

Martial Arts Training: Grants attack animations of a monk and 2(1d6) base damage

3d6 sneak attack die

Tower Shield Proficiency

One Free Fighter or Monk Feat

Wisdom Bonus to AC when centered

Disarm Traps as a Class Skill

Primal:

Fast Movement

Bow Strength

TWF (feat only)

THF (first feat only)

Power Attack

DR 5/- (stacks with and enables DR from FOTW)

Arcane:

Int to DCs

Charisma to DCs

Arcane Wand Use

Crossbow Proficiency

Rune Arm Use

UMD as a class skill

One free metamagic feat.

[Silverleafeon]

Yeah I wouldn't like Heroic Commendations to be turn in for ER heart. It would restrict us to farming the raids before ER.

Also the Heroic Commendations are tied to upgrading weapons and armor. I would hate to have to choose upgrade my items or ER heart

**I know Tokens of the twelve were used to upgrade epic items and for True Heart of Wood but, they did not drop only from 2 raids.

Aye, I think you are right, unless maybe its a terribly low number, like 3?

One million plat would be another thought?


So far the best idea seen is ER Heart trade in for 20 tokens, since we can farm challenges/old content for that.
Maybe not the best option, but the best option so far?


What if all epics dropped Karma tokens?
EC = 10% chance?
EN = 25% chance?
EH = 50% chance?
EE = 100% chance?

Add +15% for raids?

Turn in X Karma tokens for a ER Heat?
X = some number close to 20ish?

[Oxarhamar]

Aye, I think you are right, unless maybe its a terribly low number, like 3?

One million plat would be another thought?


So far the best idea seen is ER Heart trade in for 20 tokens, since we can farm challenges/old content for that.
Maybe not the best option, but the best option so far?


What if all epics dropped Karma tokens?
EC = 10% chance?
EN = 25% chance?
EH = 50% chance?
EE = 100% chance?

Add +15% for raids?

Turn in X Karma tokens for a ER Heat?
X = some number close to 20ish?

I like this idea and it would fit right in with the naming of the ER the Karma system

What I'd like to see if the Karma Tokens or fragments drop in all epic content that does not already drop Tokens of the twelve. (we need to keep those dropping for heroic TR)

I say fragments because I would rather be awarded part of a token then none at all in lower difficulties if there is a reduced chance.

[Silverleafeon]

it could be treated like a meta and show up in each hotbarred spell's meta custom select list.

I like that idea.

[Silverleafeon]

I like this idea and it would fit right in with the naming of the ER the Karma system

What I'd like to see if the Karma Tokens or fragments drop in all epic content that does not already drop Tokens of the twelve. (we need to keep those dropping for heroic TR)

Oh, we definitely have to keep the 12 tokens!

[Mryal]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

Well thats how its gotta be folks, really nice idea... looks like you heard...My suggestion?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5021363#post5021363

Either way.Way better than before.

[Silverleafeon]

Well thats how its gotta be folks, really nice idea... looks like you heard...My suggestion?

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR?p=5021363#post5021363

Either way.Way better than before.

Read the link, and thanks for influencing this.
Yes, back to 20 was a great idea.


Frankly, I like the approach used in this thread.
Instead of dropping the whole plan on the table, they give us the essence of on Friday then sit back and see what we think.
They answered a few questions, such as what about iconics, but it is evident to me that they are listening to us.

Looking for a thumbs up OR thumbs down before dropping the rest on the table.
Nicely done.
I see thumbs up so far.
If it was thumbs down, they had to opportunity to blueprint again then represent it.

Also, cool showing the Devs do have a grasp of the English language, lol, new term for me.

Sometime this week, I bet we see more, hmm...by Fridayish?

[kwyjibo_lol]

Although it sounds sweet I think returning to level 20 on epic tr will make this too easy, Level 15 - the same as iconics would be a better fit with your FR push.

[Oxarhamar]

Although it sounds sweet I think returning to level 20 on epic tr will make this too easy, Level 15 - the same as iconics would be a better fit with your FR push.

I see no reason for Epic Reincarnation to take you down into Heroic levels and am glad that they have decided to take us back to 20.

[sirgog]

Those benefits should stack and they should make endgame comment much easier. The problem is that the quest developers now think that everyone is a triple completionist with all capped destinies and max twists and they are designing normal and hard level quests for that level of ability and then making EE insane because they think that only those types of toons want to run EE.

You should get a benefit for doing the work and if that benefit makes it so that you can burn through quests when others are dying then either don't run with them or help them get the same benefits that you currently enjoy.

There should be benefits for actual achievements, but not benefits for 'work'.

Of course what is an achievement and what is work varies from player to player, but doing your 700th completion of at-level EH VON3 should not be providing major rewards.

[Sonos]

No. There shouldn't be a reward just because someone wasted too much of their life playing this game.

Lol Yaga.

But seriously, making it worthwhile for players to grind out past lives is the name of the game for a good portion of people. TRing was a huge boon to the repeat-ability and success of the game imho.

When someone like Sirgog(and I respect most all of his opinions) says that there shouldn't be a gap between a 1st lifer and someone that ground out 100s and 100s of hours of lives, EDs, etc. I call BS:

What made me grind out a completionist? Seeing others do it and seeing some decent but also moderate benefits. It was a goal, and it's not for everyone but it's another way of advancement. More advancement means more game play for a lot of people.

I do agree with Yaga that content needs to be made to keep us long time players interested, but with regards to Epic TR: The benefit should be commensurate with effort put into it. Balance is always tricky in an MMO, but let's not forget that having more power is incentive for a lot(not all) people to continue playing the game. Achieving goals is a great motivator.

[Deathdefy]

My 2c is that I agree with Sirgog that the massive power gap between multi-TRs / Completionists, etc is bad for the game.

+9 Ranged damage per hit is like your own personal level 20 warchanter playing in your ear. I love my miniature Jeff Mangum, but the time required to attain one of your own must be a discouraging prospect for mix-maxer newbies with the mild undiagnosed OCD that made those of us who did grind out completionist do so.

Anyway, I don't really care about that debate and am solely here to announce my new ideas for past-lives since others have made me realise my earlier suggestions were boring.

Primal sphere:

"The Cleared Path"
The spirits of the fey surround you and clear obstacles from your path. Secret doors you are aware of and unlocked doors within 10 feet of you automatically open.

Martial sphere:

"Stay Puft the Destroyer"
You are angry. So angry. Barrels, crates, and other breakables within 10 feet explode spontaneously from your thunderous footsteps.

[mikarddo]

Aye, I think you are right, unless maybe its a terribly low number, like 3?

One million plat would be another thought?


So far the best idea seen is ER Heart trade in for 20 tokens, since we can farm challenges/old content for that.
Maybe not the best option, but the best option so far?


What if all epics dropped Karma tokens?
EC = 10% chance?
EN = 25% chance?
EH = 50% chance?
EE = 100% chance?

Add +15% for raids?

Turn in X Karma tokens for a ER Heat?
X = some number close to 20ish?

Thats far, far, far too easy to be realistic. You would have far more than 20 tokens simply from leveling from 20 to 28 making your suggestion completely pointless. Whatever its going to take it realistically has to be somewhat difficult/boring to obtain for free as it obviously is going to be a cash cow from selling tokens in the store. Not that I like it but thats how I am certain it will be.

[mikarddo]

As an alternate idea for ED Sphere past lives, why not have them grant abilities that come from splashes of the related classes? Like so:

Divine Options:

Divine Grace: Add charisma bonus to saves.

Divine Wand Use: Grants use of all divine wands.

Lay On Hands (using character level)

Turn Undead (character level minus 4)

Wisdom for Spell DCs

Martial:

Evasion

Martial Weapon Proficiency

Heavy Armor

Martial Arts Training: Grants attack animations of a monk and 2(1d6) base damage

3d6 sneak attack die

Tower Shield Proficiency

One Free Fighter or Monk Feat

Wisdom Bonus to AC when centered

Disarm Traps as a Class Skill

Primal:

Fast Movement

Bow Strength

TWF (feat only)

THF (first feat only)

Power Attack

DR 5/- (stacks with and enables DR from FOTW)

Arcane:

Int to DCs

Charisma to DCs

Arcane Wand Use

Crossbow Proficiency

Rune Arm Use

UMD as a class skill

One free metamagic feat.

Some of those are very overpowered imho. By your suggestion everyone would have +cha to saves and evasion for free? ... Nah, that doesnt sound right.

[Silverleafeon]

Thats far, far, far too easy to be realistic. You would have far more than 20 tokens simply from leveling from 20 to 28 making your suggestion completely pointless. Whatever its going to take it realistically has to be somewhat difficult/boring to obtain for free as it obviously is going to be a cash cow from selling tokens in the store. Not that I like it but thats how I am certain it will be.

Aye, 20 is probably too low.

Is 100 too high?

[Gywiden]

I'm liking the new proposed system much better than the old one.

BTW, I saw some great suggestions for Epic TR feats. However, there is one that just shouldn't happen, which is increasing hate generation (that person had some great ideas, just pointing out a problem).

I mean, sure, increasing hate generation would be useful for the fighter types, but I'm taking my main through many classes and EDs. If I choose an Epic TR feat, I don't want it to negatively affect my next druid life or something like that (I like my pup generating the hate and me avoiding it).

So yeah, don't give us anything permanent that could negatively impact another reincarnation later please :D.

[Oxarhamar]

Aye, 20 is probably too low.

Is 100 too high?

probably

I think it should be something that is obtainable either while leveling to 28 or within a few hours after capping like True Hearts of Wood.

I don't want to see a mechanic where you have to reach lvl 28 then spend days or weeks farming to Epic Reincarnate.

I'd like to keep it fluid. Its easy enough now to Cap a Herioc life and farm your tokens in a few hours if you do challenges or short quests.

The worst thing I could see is being forced to stay at 28 for some extended time just because, you need to farm whatever it is that's needed to Epic Reincarnate.

[Oxarhamar]

I'm liking the new proposed system much better than the old one.

BTW, I saw some great suggestions for Epic TR feats. However, there is one that just shouldn't happen, which is increasing hate generation (that person had some great ideas, just pointing out a problem).

I mean, sure, increasing hate generation would be useful for the fighter types, but I'm taking my main through many classes and EDs. If I choose an Epic TR feat, I don't want it to negatively affect my next druid life or something like that (I like my pup generating the hate and me avoiding it).

So yeah, don't give us anything permanent that could negatively impact another reincarnation later please :D.

I agree no passive stacking hate boosts some builds use it and others don't.

maybe a toggled ability to add or reduce hate be nice.

[WanderingGrump]

Martial sphere:

"Stay Puft the Destroyer"
You are angry. So angry. Barrels, crates, and other breakables within 10 feet explode spontaneously from your thunderous footsteps.

+1 to you for making me laugh... hard.

[Silverleafeon]

+1 to you for making me laugh... hard.

Nods happily, laughing heartily as well...

[BruceTheHoon]

I haven't seen it being asked yet: Are there still plans to adjust the TR XP curves (i.e.: from cubic progression to something more flat)?

[Silverleafeon]

I haven't seen it being asked yet: Are there still plans to adjust the TR XP curves (i.e.: from cubic progression to something more flat)?

Last Dev comment I saw (months back) was it would be update 20, I think?
Hopefully this is still so.

[mikarddo]

Aye, 20 is probably too low.

Is 100 too high?

If anything 100 is likely still too low. To be realistic it pretty much has to be a pain - otherwise noone will bye it from the store and that almost surely has to be an option that many players will opt for. I simply dont see how it can be different though I could wish it was obviously.

Maybe count the number of quests needed to go from 20 to 28 and then tripple that number if you run on EE (and higher if you run on EH) - thus making it a choice if you want to farm or pay.

[Silverleafeon]

Although it sounds sweet I think returning to level 20 on epic tr will make this too easy, Level 15 - the same as iconics would be a better fit with your FR push.

Well then, you might could easily do it 33 times for Epic Triple Completionist?

[Oxarhamar]

If anything 100 is likely still too low. To be realistic it pretty much has to be a pain - otherwise noone will bye it from the store and that almost surely has to be an option that many players will opt for. I simply dont see how it can be different though I could wish it was obviously.

Maybe count the number of quests needed to go from 20 to 28 and then tripple that number if you run on EE (and higher if you run on EH) - thus making it a choice if you want to farm or pay.

3 times?

it takes 6,600,000 XP to go from 20 - 28 6,600,000 x3 = 19,800,000
it takes 1,980,000 to cap a destiny with 11 destinies 1,980,000 x11 = 21,780,000

so what your saying is that even though we get to keep Epic destinies we should basically need to farm out close to the same amount of XP to max them out all for every Epic Reincarnation?

[Chai]

3 times?

it takes 6,600,000 XP to go from 20 - 28 6,600,000 x3 = 19,800,000
it takes 1,980,000 to cap a destiny with 11 destinies 1,980,000 x11 = 21,780,000

so what your saying is that even though we get to keep Epic destinies we should basically need to farm out close to the same amount of XP to max them out all for every Epic Reincarnation?

Epic XP comes MUCH more quickly then heroic, due to the way epic XP scales.

[Oxarhamar]

Epic XP comes MUCH more quickly then heroic, due to the way epic XP scales.

yeah it sure does however there is no reason to need to do enough quests to take a toon from 20-28 3 times to get a Epic Reincarnation Heart

so to get Epic Completionist you essentially need to do enough quests to gain the XP needed to have do each epic past life 3 times. that's ridiculous

there is no reason to make it that excessive.

[mikarddo]

yeah it sure does however there is no reason to need to do enough quests to take a toon from 20-28 3 times to get a Epic Reincarnation Heart

so to get Epic Completionist you essentially need to do enough quests to gain the XP needed to have do each epic past life 3 times. that's ridiculous

there is no reason to make it that excessive.

Yet if you dont noone will buy the hearts from the store and I am fairly sure thats a given that TB needs that. Your math also breaks slightly apart because you only get the bravery and first time on difficulty bonus once so subsequent runs of the same quest are quite a bit less xp. I sense that you seem to want the hearts to be present without any further xp than simply making it to 28 - but then there is no point at all in having those hearts at all as it would be automatic. Maybe my suggestion was slightly over the top - but I fear thats much more realistic than the suggestions to make it a complete non-grind. Maybe 2 times rather than 3 times could be feasible I suppose but less than that I sincerely doubt. The fast movers will just have to cough up and use the store.

[doawithlife]

I might be alone, but the bonus's I would like to see are along the same lines as old TRs.
Martial sphere would give +1 str per tier for 3 tiers(+3 total), +1 AC for three tiers, and +1 to all skills.
Primal +1 con, +1 reflex save, and +1 dex.
Divine +1 Wis, +1 Cha, and +1 fort saves.
Arcane +1 Int, +1 will saves, and +2(?) stackable MR/tier.

Other idea I thought would be neat would be perm +1 to all classes associated with that sphere. So if you get 3 tiers of classes association in divine, you would gain an effective +3 to all divine classes once you hit epic levels(course this wouldn't mesh well with the current ED lvl bonus's).

I am sure more then what I said would be needed, but that is what I personally would like to see included.

[EllisDee37]

Other idea I thought would be neat would be perm +1 to all classes associated with that sphere. So if you get 3 tiers of classes association in divine, you would gain an effective +3 to all divine classes once you hit epic levels(course this wouldn't mesh well with the current ED lvl bonus's).I like this idea.

+1 class level for all classes in that sphere, stacking up to 3 times. Simple, elegant, albeit a bit unsexy. I like it a lot.

[Silverleafeon]

I like this idea.

+1 class level for all classes in that sphere, stacking up to 3 times. Simple, elegant, albeit a bit unsexy. I like it a lot.

Sounds interesting.

Perhaps that could be an autogrant reward for gaining each past life in that sphere?
I'm sure there are some people who will max out certain spheres without interest in other spheres?

[Silverleafeon]

I think its interesting that some who criticized the loot from the 2013 Xpack seem to also indicate that epic past life bonuses should not get too high.

These two points of view appear to contradict each other.

The 2013 Xpack loot serves an important purpose.
A brand new toon could roll be up an iconic, work thru all the Xpack quests once and obtain enough nice loot to be raid ready.
Thus it is designed to accommodate a newer player or a player coming back to the game or a player joining a new server.

Carrots even cosmetic carrots are important.
Peoples interest falls off with no where left to go.

This is a cooperative game, not a player vs player game.
Challenge is important.

A careful balance is required as always to design this game.

[Silverleafeon]

I have heard a fair amount of people say the are waiting to see how good the past life bonuses are before they decide to epic reincarnate.

[Fallout_Zero]

I have a toon sitting at L20, want to do last life. From what I understand safe to do the last heroic life and favor since epic TR is different? Dont want to spend time doing it if have to heroic TR again.

[danotmano1998]

Martial sphere:

"Stay Puft the Destroyer"
You are angry. So angry. Barrels, crates, and other breakables within 10 feet explode spontaneously from your thunderous footsteps.

This would be worth an Epic TR for.
I would totally LOVE this !!!

+1 for the laugh, and for the idea.

[Qhualor]

I think its interesting that some who criticized the loot from the 2013 Xpack seem to also indicate that epic past life bonuses should not get too high.

These two points of view appear to contradict each other.

The 2013 Xpack loot serves an important purpose.
A brand new toon could roll be up an iconic, work thru all the Xpack quests once and obtain enough nice loot to be raid ready.
Thus it is designed to accommodate a newer player or a player coming back to the game or a player joining a new server.

Carrots even cosmetic carrots are important.
Peoples interest falls off with no where left to go.

This is a cooperative game, not a player vs player game.
Challenge is important.

A careful balance is required as always to design this game.

If XPack was designed for the new player and for new Iconics, than what do the rest of us strive for in there? I hear a lot positive things about how well quests were done, but that's not enough to keep it active and with no raid there's even less interest.

[Silverleafeon]

Aye.

Gold Carrots are important, bring em on....

No sense in finally updating Reincarnation but then leaving it shallow and uninteresting.

[Kambuk]

Just a though on Heroic past lives.

What if each past life made you count as having 1 level in that class for enhancement purposes?

So the passive past life fighter unlocks all the fighter trees as if you had one level of fighter

The Active past life feat adds 2 levels

Additional past lives add one more level up to 3.

So 3x past life fighter and the feat lets you count as a level 5 fighter for enhancement purposes.

Completionist could add 2 levels to all classes meaning you would count as at least level 3 in all classes.

Past life feats + actual levels in the class grant bonus action points?

This wouldn't have to be instead of the existing bonuses.

Kambuk

[Oxarhamar]

Yet if you dont noone will buy the hearts from the store and I am fairly sure thats a given that TB needs that. Your math also breaks slightly apart because you only get the bravery and first time on difficulty bonus once so subsequent runs of the same quest are quite a bit less xp. I sense that you seem to want the hearts to be present without any further xp than simply making it to 28 - but then there is no point at all in having those hearts at all as it would be automatic. Maybe my suggestion was slightly over the top - but I fear thats much more realistic than the suggestions to make it a complete non-grind. Maybe 2 times rather than 3 times could be feasible I suppose but less than that I sincerely doubt. The fast movers will just have to cough up and use the store.

I never said my math was spot on

I was just making the comparison of not losing our Epic Destinies but still having to essentially farm as many quests to Max them out in 1 life just to Epic Reincarnate.

I for one am against any mechanic that forces us to stay at cap for longer than it takes to reach cap just to Epic Reincarnate.

It should not be a freebie that you can just Epic Reincarnate as soon as you cap but, it should not take as long or longer than reaching cap itself once capped.

Lets say for sake of argument that it takes a given player 3 weeks to reach lvl 28 from lvl 20 with their given amount of playtime. It should not take another 3 weeks to earn Epic Reincarnation Heart.

That's just my view.

[Oxarhamar]

Just a though on Heroic past lives.

What if each past life made you count as having 1 level in that class for enhancement purposes?

So the passive past life fighter unlocks all the fighter trees as if you had one level of fighter

The Active past life feat adds 2 levels

Additional past lives add one more level up to 3.

So 3x past life fighter and the feat lets you count as a level 5 fighter for enhancement purposes.

Completionist could add 2 levels to all classes meaning you would count as at least level 3 in all classes.

Past life feats + actual levels in the class grant bonus action points?

This wouldn't have to be instead of the existing bonuses.

Kambuk

^^this

[Silverleafeon]

When we think about it, making completionist stacking is not terribly overpowered.

Ability scores are approaching 60s right now and higher for some.
+2 or +4 more is not going to be so big, especially with +6 tomes coming,
and +11ish item bonuses (+12 maybe)

As far as comparing it to Epic Ability feat, triple completionist costs 160 million xp to gain.

[Gratch]

Hmmm... apparently the hamsters are going slow running on the paradigm wheel to provide the further details.

Or maybe they're reading this to get the final details.



Past Epic Life Feat Thoughts:

Divine: Unyielding Sentinel: Seppuku: Active Ability: Knockdown and energy drain all enemies within a large radius (no save), return honor to your nearby party members in the form of a +8 radiant bonus to all attributes for (10,20,30 seconds) but receive (1500,1250,1000) untyped damage for said honor. (1 use/rest).

Primal: Fury: Furious: Active Ability: Gain +(2,3,4) size classes for Str/Con purposes for 1 min (3,4,5x/rest) and Passive (+1,1,2) Adrenaline uses.

Arcane: Draconic: Burstier: Your Energy Burst radius is increased (20%, 40%, 60%)

[Oxarhamar]

When we think about it, making completionist stacking is not terribly overpowered.

Ability scores are approaching 60s right now and higher for some.
+2 or +4 more is not going to be so big, especially with +6 tomes coming,
and +11ish item bonuses (+12 maybe)

As far as comparing it to Epic Ability feat, triple completionist costs 160 million xp to gain.

right

[Silverleafeon]

When Fawngate did "What goes up" on EE her first time, she struggled just like everyone else.
We got it done, but it tooks hours and hours.
Her 40 lives helped yes, but she drank a lot of sp potions indeed.

A challenge it was, should be, future as well...

The Devs face a decision this week.

If the level cap is going to stay indefinitely at 30, if Reincarnation is going to be a big part of the game,
if this game remains PVE cooperation instead of PVP...

The golden apple is tossed thru the gates...

Should first life toons be expected to trump EE content?

Will the carrot harvest fail or be a bumper crop?

Devs will move unto other things quickly, such as raids.

Will they listen to those playing other games who want to not need to play their current toons any to be able to stay competitive?

[Silverleafeon]

If it looks like a raid,
if it smells like a raid,
if it feels like a raid,
perhaps it should be a raid?


Maybe let's turn, "What goes up" into a raid?

Drop Heroic Commendations XX%?
Everyone needs those.

Teleport from public area directly to raid?

How hard would the conversion be anyway?

[doawithlife]

Primal sphere:

"The Cleared Path"
The spirits of the fey surround you and clear obstacles from your path. Secret doors you are aware of and unlocked doors within 10 feet of you automatically open.

Martial sphere:

"Stay Puft the Destroyer"
You are angry. So angry. Barrels, crates, and other breakables within 10 feet explode spontaneously from your thunderous footsteps.

I love these ideas, but I am thinking they should be saved for Iconic TR's. Either way I would love to see these.

[Scraap]

Oh, what the heck:

The Mom Look (toggle)
Intimidates a targeted mob every 5 seconds, at an intimidate DC -12/-8/-4.

As to whether that would be divine or primal? I'm informed it would be divine.

[oopsagain]

Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie. LOL, a friend of mine (Billy Sherwood) just co-wrote, performed on, and produced William Shatner's new album.

He's also doing a few lives shows, leading the band (Circa) that's backing Shatner.

Should be hilariously funny show.. :)

[Teh_Troll]

LOL, a friend of mine (Billy Sherwood) just co-wrote, performed on, and produced William Shatner's new album.

He's also doing a few lives shows, leading the band (Circa) that's backing Shatner.

Should be hilariously funny show.. :)

The same guy who used to be in Yes?

[oopsagain]

The same guy who used to be in Yes?

Yep...

[Yaga_Nub]

If it looks like a raid,
if it smells like a raid,
if it feels like a raid,
perhaps it should be a raid?


Maybe let's turn, "What goes up" into a raid?

Drop Heroic Commendations XX%?
Everyone needs those.

Teleport from public area directly to raid?

How hard would the conversion be anyway?

And when it doesn't smell or feel like one then it's not. WGU ISN'T a raid and is laughable that people are having issues with it on N & H. On EE, yes, it's a very hard quest but it still isn't a raid. Could they make some major and minor tweaks to make it a raid, sure, but they didn't want to do that so stop pressing them on it and start pressing for more details on U20 (which is supposed to have a raid or two if I remember correctly).

[Yaga_Nub]

There should be benefits for actual achievements, but not benefits for 'work'.

Of course what is an achievement and what is work varies from player to player, but doing your 700th completion of at-level EH VON3 should not be providing major rewards.

Any true achievement requires work, even if that work is considered fun.


Lol Yaga.

But seriously, making it worthwhile for players to grind out past lives is the name of the game for a good portion of people. TRing was a huge boon to the repeat-ability and success of the game imho.

When someone like Sirgog(and I respect most all of his opinions) says that there shouldn't be a gap between a 1st lifer and someone that ground out 100s and 100s of hours of lives, EDs, etc. I call BS:

What made me grind out a completionist? Seeing others do it and seeing some decent but also moderate benefits. It was a goal, and it's not for everyone but it's another way of advancement. More advancement means more game play for a lot of people.

I do agree with Yaga that content needs to be made to keep us long time players interested, but with regards to Epic TR: The benefit should be commensurate with effort put into it. Balance is always tricky in an MMO, but let's not forget that having more power is incentive for a lot(not all) people to continue playing the game. Achieving goals is a great motivator.

TRing was only a boon to replayability because we were getting something more out of the time. As I said in a different post, they are going to have to start catering to the older players at some point or risk losing us and a big part of that is to stop coming up with new, unneeded, incomplete systems like EDs and TRing and focus on what people play the game for which is quests. We don't play to make our characters powerful to be able to say we can blow throw XYZ quest 10 seconds faster with that 3rd Monk PL giving me a bonus to damage. We play to say we made it through a challenging dungeon with friends/guildies and that we got some good to great XP and loot.

As I said before, I'd rather them put the devs that are working on Epic TRing out on the street and hire more dungeon and mob designers. That's a lot of people want more than playing through the same quests over and over.

[Krelar]

Could they make some major and minor tweaks to make it a raid, sure, but they didn't want to do that so stop pressing them on it and start pressing for more details on U20 (which is supposed to have a raid or two if I remember correctly).

U20 is only 2 quests and epic reincarnation. The raid is next year. (Probably U21 but I don't know that they've officially said that)