Paradigm Shift : how we are looking at Epic Reincarnation

[Silverleafeon]

...Could they make some major and minor tweaks to make it a raid, sure...Kind of thinking Tempest Spine quality, which is actually very popular at level and sometimes asked for as an epic raid. It would never be as good as Fall of Truth, but if the conversion was fairly easy to do, maybe?

I, too, look forward to update 21.


...We don't play to make our characters powerful to be able to say we can blow throw XYZ quest 10 seconds faster with that 3rd Monk PL giving me a bonus to damage...
Which is why Epic and Econic Reincarnation needs offer significant advantage; things a player will stop, sit down and read, and seriously consider wanting.

[Gywiden]

Here are my ED TR feat suggestions:

Arcane:

+3 to Spellcasting

+5% casting speed

+5 Universal Spell Power

Divine:

+3 to Heal

+5% chance to critical Light and Dark spells

3 Light and Negative Energy Resistance

Martial:

+5% Melee Alacrity

+3 to Hide and Move Silently

+3 to Concentration

Primal

Summons, hirelings, charmed creatures, and pets receive +5 resistance to Acid, Cold, Fire, Ice, and Sonic damage

+5% Ranged Alacrity

+3 to Listen and Spot

[Oxarhamar]

Here are my ED TR feat suggestions:

Primal

Summons, hirelings, charmed creatures, and pets receive +5 resistance to Acid, Cold, Fire, Ice, and Sonic damage



this one even if it stacked 3 times seams to be super weak +15 resistance is not really anything to write home about for your pets and summons now if it was +10 stacking to +30 thats not too bad

I did like the other suggestions

[Silverleafeon]

Developer Expansion Pack #405928
Cost: 4995 galactic credits ~ 50% off only 2498 galactic credits

This pack allows a developer to upgrade their game with the very lastest version of completionist.
Auto granted, fully stacking, and scalable for intense gaming needs.
Guarantee to sell more boxes and hearts per annual income.

Technical stats:
Heroic bonuses
Auto Grants +2 to ability scores and skill checks at level one if a toon has earned the completionist feat once.
Paragon bonuses
Auto Grants an additional +2 to ability scores and skill checks at level eleven if one has earned the completionist feat twice.
Epic bonuses
Auto Grants an additional +2 to ability scores and skill checks at level twenty one if one has earned the completionist feat thrice.

Replaces the your existing outdated completionist feat.

Order now today and receive a trial Iconic Kobold kit as well.

[Oxarhamar]

Developer Expansion Pack #405928
Cost: 4995 galactic credits ~ 50% off only 2498 galactic credits

This pack allows a developer to upgrade their game with the very lastest version of completionist.
Auto granted, fully stacking, and scalable for intense gaming needs.
Guarantee to sell more boxes and hearts per annual income.

Technical stats:
Heroic bonuses
Auto Grants +2 to ability scores and skill checks at level one if a toon has earned the completionist feat once.
Paragon bonuses
Auto Grants an additional +2 to ability scores and skill checks at level eleven if one has earned the completionist feat twice.
Epic bonuses
Auto Grants an additional +2 to ability scores and skill checks at level twenty one if one has earned the completionist feat thrice.

Replaces the your existing outdated completionist feat.

Order now today and receive a trial Iconic Kobold kit as well.

All in

[debo]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

Is this going to be brought to the playerbase all at once or is it going to be given in parts then more parts that never get finished later? I ask because it seems we get big changes to the game and 3 or 4 different ways the same thing are implemented all half done and seemingly not complete years later and was wondering if this is going to be just another thing partially finished.

[chyribdus]

I'm sure that some or all of these would be considered overpowered, but I pretty much put in numbers that could be managed easily with multipliers. These are some different ways that everything could be made with epic pl's that came to mind.

Arcane: (all stances with a 10 minute cooldown before being able to deactivate or change stances)

Arcane Fury: Passive: +5% Universal Spell Power, +10% Spell points. Active: +25% Universal Spell Power, +15% Spell Point cost to all spells. When activated, passive benefits do not function.

Elementalist's Might: Passive: +8% Fire, Electric, Acid, and Ice Spell Power, +30 Spellcraft Skill. Active: +40% Fire, Electric, Acid, and Ice Spell Power, Spellcraft skill equals 0 after all mods. When activated, passive benefits do not function.

Bardic Enchantment: Passive: +15% song duration, +20% to song effects, +2 to song DC's. Active: -50% Song Duration, +40% to song effects, +8 to song DC's. When activated, passive benefits do not function.

Divine:

Divine Glory: +10% to light and healing spell power, +6 to turn dc's,

Righteous Defender: Gain +3% Dodge, +10% PRR. When Blocking, gain +25% DR and elemental absorption.

Martial:

Weapons Master: Increase Critical Threat Range by 2. Increase Critical Multiplier by 2. Increase Tactical Feats DC by 2

Master of Shadows: +35 to Move Silently and Hide. +5 to Assassinate DC. Attacking while sneaking does not cause sneaking to end

True Master of Peace: +1[W] to all attacks while centered. +1 to critical threat range while centered. +1 to critical Multiplier while centered. Tactical Feats DC increased by 2

Primal:

Unnamed for Shiradi: +10% to melee and ranged attacks and to spell power. All melee and ranged attacks, as well as offensive spells have a 7% chance to do an additional 10d100 damage for each of force, acid, fire, electric, and ice damage types.

Dutiful Rage: When raged, add con score to hit and damage modifiers along with all saves

Draconic Transformation: Transformation into a small dragon, gain the ability to breath with damage type of chosen dragon type, damage similar to 25% higher than the ability in draconic. Dragon type will be chosen at feat selection.

[Gywiden]

this one even if it stacked 3 times seams to be super weak +15 resistance is not really anything to write home about for your pets and summons now if it was +10 stacking to +30 thats not too bad

I did like the other suggestions

This would be stacking resistance. Hirelings generally already have some resistance. That's why if you cast Resist Energy on them, sometimes the animation doesn't show (they already have those effects when this happens, and it won't stack). If you have a pet you have a character that can cast Resist Energy, so again, you'd have more than the +5/+10/+15 when you cast that in addition to the feat. Same with summons unless you are using a clicky as a fighter or something.

But if they wanted to do +10 each time, that'd rock :D.

[Oxarhamar]

This would be stacking resistance. Hirelings generally already have some resistance. That's why if you cast Resist Energy on them, sometimes the animation doesn't show (they already have those effects when this happens, and it won't stack). If you have a pet you have a character that can cast Resist Energy, so again, you'd have more than the +5/+10/+15 when you cast that in addition to the feat. Same with summons unless you are using a clicky as a fighter or something.

But if they wanted to do +10 each time, that'd rock :D.

I was thinking more in terms of my Army of Ooze from my Improved Precise Shot OozeII heavy repeater.

only buffs I give them are AOE like rage and haste if they are in proximity so passives +30 resists would be welcomed

[Gywiden]

I was thinking more in terms of my Army of Ooze from my Improved Precise Shot OozeII heavy repeater.

only buffs I give them are AOE like rage and haste if they are in proximity so passives +30 resists would be welcomed

That makes sense :D. Also, +10 would make more sense for non-caster lives since hirelings really would benefit from this. They often die quickly to traps and strong spells they aren't resisting. I actually had hirelings in mind when coming up with this since they really could use more durability, especially when they decide it is a good idea to stand in pools of fire and acid, or in the flames spewing from a wall trap rofl.

[RobbinB]

When it comes to heroic past lives, some of them are good (+1 all skills, +1 dc), some are situational (+2 ranged damage, +1 turn attempt) and some are... yeah (+1 damage to sneak attacks)

Just what is your goal with the power level of these?

Would we see for example:
Arcane Sphere - Puppet Master. Your voice hums with a magical overture, confusing and disorienting all around you. Enemies without 30ft are subject to a Mass Charm Monster spell (DC 10+level+ highest int/cha). Cooldown 3 minutes.
Martial Sphere - Put some welly into it. When wielding a two-handed weapon, you add twice your attribute modifier to damage instead of 1.5 times. When dual wielding, you add your full bonus to offhand attacks.

Or would we be more in line to expect
Divine - Piety. Your cure spells are 10% more effective and your smites deal 10% more damage.
Martial - Blind Fighting. You can reroll the miss chance for invisible or concealed foes.

My concern with the new system is that three times stacking in each sphere combined with quite powerful "feats" would simply make epic tr'ing a necessity, not an option.

I currently have a first life monk that I extensively worked on favor (including challenges) and have no intention of ever tr'ing until they have an option to preserve favor. Plus I'm not all that keen on the whole tr thing in the first place. As far as heroic tr goes this isn't a huge problem, as none of the past life feats are truly overpowered (with the exception of +9 spell pen from 3xwiz, 3xfvs; however, this isn't relevant to my melee).

So please devs do not make the epic past life feats super powerful and not have an option to not reset favor for epic tr only. There should also be the realistic option to never tr and still be somewhat competitive. With relevance to your suggestions, 3 x stacking 10% to cure spells or the proposed bonus to two-handed or two-weapon fighting are very powerful. A mass charm song with 3 min cooldown and blind fighting are nice but in no way overpowered.

[GeoffWatson]

In the original ideas for Epic Reincarnation there was a way to increase ability points to 38. Will that be available in the new system?

Geoff.

[Xazaks]

Tier I : Gain frightful presence feat.
Tier II : Gain Fear aura feat.
Tier III : Gain Nightmare aura. 10% chance that mob subject to fear will be subject to phantasm killer like spell. If saved mob takes 5d8 untyped dmg.

[Silverleafeon]

As far as heroic tr goes this isn't a huge problem, as none of the past life feats are truly overpowered (with the exception of +9 spell pen from 3xwiz, 3xfvs; however, this isn't relevant to my melee).

There you have it devs.
Your current carrots are very lacking.


So please devs do not make the epic past life feats super powerful and not have an option to not reset favor for epic tr only. There should also be the realistic option to never tr and still be somewhat competitive.

Fear overcomes desire right now.
Your current carrots are very lacking.

[Silverleafeon]

Can you break out of this pattern?

Or will the group that says,
"Hey Devs, we just want to log in twice a week, pick up broken equipment from raids and never TR cause past lives stink.
Please keep past lives stinking so we don't have to consider it?"
will they win?
Is that what you want, people logging in for raids and nothing else?

There is a fair amount of people pushing to stop the only reincarnation update ever in the next few years.
This is folks, do it right now, cause it will be ages before you return.



For those of you who would say to me,
"You knew what you where getting into when you TRed so many times, so don't ask for change."

Fawn and I reply back,
"I did not do it for the carrots, I even openly stated the power gain was not worth the effort.
We climbed the mountain because it was there.
To me the journey was the most important part."


Will everyone be wiling to climb the mountain just to know they reached the top?

Should first life toons really be similar to hundred life toons?
We will have hundred life toons under the new system when the nine or so more iconics arrive.

[Silverleafeon]

What is the point of playing this game if first life toon will resemble one hundred life toons?

Fear is the orginal sin.



A lot of good has been done, thank you.
This is an important moment which will reflect deeply in the future.
Ponder carefully, and be bold with your decision whatever it may be.

[Yaga_Nub]

What is the point of playing this game if first life toon will resemble one hundred life toons?
...
Ponder carefully, and be INTELLIGENT with your decision whatever it may be.

Very true for your question and I fixed your statement.

[Silverleafeon]

Thank you.

[Scraap]

What is the point of playing this game if first life toon will resemble one hundred life toons?


My only real concern is whether or not a hundred life toon after the ETR pass will play identically to a first life before, only with more time-required to hit the required numbers to do the exact same thing. Nothing says 'pointless time sink' like constantly selling us back our present abilities. (Well, except maybe more inflation without upping the bar. The phrase "all dressed up and nowhere to go" springs to mind.)

[Ladywolf]

will we be able to change race with the epic tr (starting at 20)? Really hoping this is the case. For things that make a difference in gameplay, we can change EVERYTHING without having to start at lvl 1 now OTHER than race, and it would be a shame to have that tied solely to lvl 1.

[EllisDee37]

will we be able to change race with the epic tr (starting at 20)? Really hoping this is the case. For things that make a difference in gameplay, we can change EVERYTHING without having to start at lvl 1 now OTHER than race, and it would be a shame to have that tied solely to lvl 1.Based on dev posts, epic reincarnation will not altar your heroic build; you start back at where you were when you first hit 20.

[Silverleafeon]

My only real concern is whether or not a hundred life toon after the ETR pass will play identically to a first life before, only with more time-required to hit the required numbers to do the exact same thing. Nothing says 'pointless time sink' like constantly selling us back our present abilities. (Well, except maybe more inflation without upping the bar. The phrase "all dressed up and nowhere to go" springs to mind.)

In other words, please keep making content designed with 1st thru 4th life toons in mind?
I agree.

A 100 life toon ought to feel like a demi-goddess or demi-god and be highly sought after for groupings.
The rare player with a 100 life toon would also have some very neglected alts, leaving room even for her/him to grow.

[Braegan]

In other words, please keep making content designed with 1st thru 4th life toons in mind?
I agree.

A 100 life toon ought to feel like a demi-goddess or demi-god and be highly sought after for groupings.
The rare player with a 100 life toon would also have some very neglected alts, leaving room even for her/him to grow.

I hear what you are saying and I agree that multi-trs and those that would get these ED PLs should be a cut above a first lifer for sure. But, herein lies the next greatest challenge of the Dev Team. If they make the new ED PLs just some stacking bonus and folks grind them out, then folks will complain the threshold for saves/dcs/etc are too weak and need a boost. They will boost them to the point that only a multi-tr/multi ED PL can achieve leaving 1st and 2nd lifers completely subpar.

They have a great challenge to make a carrot nice enough to entice folks to grind out some absurd 6 mil xp over and over again that would provide some unique bonus without curbstomping anyone that hasn't that kind of time to invest. I don't envy thier position, but then again I never told them to work on this rather then a more balancing end-game experience.

[Silverleafeon]

The problems associated with total helplessness/instant kill spells have existed for a long time and will continue to exist regardless of reincarnation.

They are a problem that existed long in D&D before DDO was even made.

[Silverleafeon]

Past life suggestion: Martial Epic Sphere +X% fortification stackable 3x.

[Silverleafeon]

If they make the new ED PLs just some stacking bonus and folks grind them out, then folks will complain the threshold for saves/dcs/etc are too weak and need a boost. They will boost them to the point that only a multi-tr/multi ED PL can achieve leaving 1st and 2nd lifers completely subpar.
Are you sure that your "then" will follow your "if"?

You are putting actions into the developer's future that may not be there?

How many uber completionist are there in the game anyway?
A dozen?
Do you think their existence truly changes the game right now?

So far bonuses to DCs by past lives of any sort are laughable.
A monk stun DC currently does not require multiple fighter past lives at all.

[Braegan]

Are you sure that your "then" will follow your "if"?

You are putting actions into the developer's future that may not be there?

How many uber completionist are there in the game anyway?
A dozen?
Do you think their existence truly changes the game right now?

So far bonuses to DCs by past lives of any sort are laughable.
A monk stun DC currently does not require multiple fighter past lives at all.



Just following the trend that has been ongoing for years now.

Yes, I completely believe if the bonuses added to ED PL are implemented in a stacking manner we will see an increase in mob saves shortly thereafter. Which would make all those that are not, subpar. As I said, this is a tough thing for the Devs to produce. They need it good enough to make folks want it, but it also needs to not be game breaking. Honestly, their best bet would be to go with really unique, cool , fun bonuses rather then stacking ones.

And, yes I realize this goes against my original brain storming post. But, I've had time to think about it since then.

[Silverleafeon]

They have a great challenge to make a carrot nice enough to entice folks to grind out some absurd 6 mil xp over and over again that would provide some unique bonus without curbstomping anyone that hasn't that kind of time to invest.
Its a PVE game, not PVP.
The amount of 100 life toons will be very, very rare.
The amount of single/several life toons will be very, very common.
The masses will ensure balance.

The old epic system stunk with single difficulty and epic ward.


I don't envy thier position, but then again I never told them to work on this rather then a more balancing end-game experience.
End game will stabilize in due time under the current system.
If we don't create a proper reincarnation system we will end up with 100 level characters,
and then where will the loot and raids be?

[Silverleafeon]

Honestly, their best bet would be to go with really unique, cool , fun bonuses rather then stacking ones.

And, yes I realize this goes against my original brain storming post. But, I've had time to think about it since then.

I completely agree.

Example:
I do not want to see Epic Completionist be +X to stats.

Make it MORE twist slots instead.

[Silverleafeon]

I would prefer to see some improvements on current bonuses without including a second set.

For example:

Search out +1s in heroic past life and replace them with +2.
Then not repeat them in later places.

Eliminate all purchasable past life feats cause they are mostly awful and recycle them.

[Braegan]

Its a PVE game, not PVP.
The amount of 100 life toons will be very, very rare.
The amount of single/several life toons will be very, very common.
The masses will ensure balance.

The old epic system stunk with single difficulty and epic ward.


End game will stabilize in due time under the current system.
If we don't create a proper reincarnation system we will end up with 100 level characters,
and then where will the loot and raids be?

Not to sound rude, but I would really ask if you are new here?

If you have spent any time at any of the level caps throughout the game the Devs have always raised character potential and then pushed the DCs/Saves/Etc towards the max obtainable. I am hoping that trend does not repeat itself here. But saying masses will equal it out is just saying that devs will ignore the power creep leading to players mostly getting bored with those occasional players logging on with their "I Win" button leaving everyone else in the middle or worse.

I like having a powerful character as well. I don't want the amount of time I have to spend playing an MMO disrupt the balance for everyone else though.

[Silverleafeon]

I do agree with you DOUBLE stacking with different past life feats is not good.

I do agree with you about the Devs need to be creative with their past lives.

I do not agree with anyone who wants to push reincarnation in a corner and tell the Devs to make it shallow and poor.
This is very unwise.

Will these people loot all the new toys in the end game and leave?
Likely.

[Silverleafeon]

Big changes happened when epic causual, epic normal, epic hard, epic elite were introduced.

Players without maximum bonuses do well in some difficulties of this content right now.
These same players faced complete blockout of instant kill and other spells under level 20 old epic wards.

That is quite a difference indeed.

I do hope nobody thinks a first life toon should be entitled to breeze thru elite epic content?

[BOgre]

If we don't create a proper reincarnation system we will end up with 100 level characters,
and then where will the loot and raids be?

You bring up a good point, but I don't see a "proper reinc system" as the solution. Endlessly replaying the same content to arrive at the same level 30 cap is not appealing.

No, what needs to happen, and has needed to happen since Cap20, is a real endgame solution. And that doesn't mean more raids. It means more reason to stay at cap. It means adding new and interesting endgame play options, like Skirmishes, Sieges, persistent instance massively multiplayer Campaigns (like when the Devs spawn dozens of Red/Purple in public areas on Lam**), Randomized dungeons, Player Created Content, etc. Every trick in the book so to speak. At some point management has to be able to see that devmanhours-to-playerreplayvalue ratio is getting worse and worse, and then start trying to develop better, replayable, content systems. DDO's current Quest/Raid/Challenge limitation has reached critical mass.

** So, imagine an instanced Campaign (like Mabar or Cove), set in the Marketplace for example. The area is crawling with Devils (a la Chronoscope). Red and Purples are spawning in the usual places, Bank, SteamTunnels, Phoenix, etc., with no end in sight. Key points (like Bank Roof, Rusty Nail, Tent, etc.) must be cleared and the HELD, for x hours, before the end battle can spawn. Players can come and go at will, the instance supports 100 players inside at once, the Campaign lasts until either the we or the baddies 'win'. Rewards based on some kind of contribution formula.

Not saying that's perfect or even very well thought out, just off the cuff. But it's the kind of thing that might keep us busy for years trying to obtain the rewards, or complete the associated crafting, or whatever.

[Silverleafeon]

Interesting ideas, hopefully we can see some of them in future.
Myself, I love the Cove/Challenges even without making items for it.

[Cleanincubus]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E
This is nitpicking here, but could you call this Epic Destiny Reincarnation, rather than Epic Reincarnation? Since Epic Destinies are not free, and as you just stated that "points" in a "Destiny Sphere" are required, it doesn't seem possible for a Premium player (without Epic Destinies) to do an Epic Reincarnation. So if it has more to do with Epic Destines, the name should show that, IMHO.

[eonfreon]

One thing; don't make it cost more xp each time you ETR, please. Have some mercy on your players.

[Silverleafeon]

One thing; don't make it cost more xp each time you ETR, please. Have some mercy on your players.
+1
Indeed.

[Oxarhamar]

This is nitpicking here, but could you call this Epic Destiny Reincarnation, rather than Epic Reincarnation? Since Epic Destinies are not free, and as you just stated that "points" in a "Destiny Sphere" are required, it doesn't seem possible for a Premium player (without Epic Destinies) to do an Epic Reincarnation. So if it has more to do with Epic Destines, the name should show that, IMHO.

they are NOT calling it Epic Destiny Reincarnation for a reason.

The original plan was Epic destiny Reincarnation. in the original proposal you lost ALL Epic Destiny XP

the Reincarnation is of Epic levels not of Epic Destinies hence the name.

[EllisDee37]

the Reincarnation is of Epic levels not of Epic Destinies hence the name.But it's destiny xp that "earns" the ability to do it, not epic level xp. In other words, if you do not own epic destinies you will not physically be able to earn the "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD) that are required in order to do an epic reincarnation.

Which does seem a little wrong, to be honest. It may be time to revisit the idea of allowing a limited version of epic destinies to free players. For example, allow core autogrants and destiny map traversing to everyone, but only people who bought destinies can actually spend AP in their destiny trees.

[Silverleafeon]

An item scorned by the elite end game crowd:

Lines of Supply Epic (ML 27)
Sage's Shoes (Epic) - Conjuration Focus V, Vitality +40

It provides +5 conjuration focus.


Three cleric Past lives only provide a mere +3 conjuration focus.

That +3 is small fraction of the typical totals one will see players brag about.
A very small portion.

Even if something like:
Arcane Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
You gain stacking +1 to all your spell DCs.
Obtainable three times.

Was allowed, the amount of change to spell DCs would be minor compared to ability scores, enhancements, epic destines, feats,
items, more items, etc...



Ditto for
Martial Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
You gain stacking +1 to all your combat DCs.
Obtainable three times.

[Oxarhamar]

But it's destiny xp that "earns" the ability to do it, not epic level xp. In other words, if you do not own epic destinies you will not physically be able to earn the "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD) that are required in order to do an epic reincarnation.

Which does seem a little wrong, to be honest. It may be time to revisit the idea of allowing a limited version of epic destinies to free players. For example, allow core autogrants and destiny map traversing to everyone, but only people who bought destinies can actually spend AP in their destiny trees.


I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

more info will be needed before your conjecture is more than just that

[Deathdefy]

An item scorned by the elite end game crowd:

Lines of Supply Epic (ML 27)
Sage's Shoes (Epic) - Conjuration Focus V, Vitality +40

It provides +5 conjuration focus.


Three cleric Past lives only provide a mere +3 conjuration focus.

That +3 is small fraction of the typical totals one will see players brag about.
A very small portion.

Even if something like:
Arcane Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
You gain stacking +1 to all your spell DCs.
Obtainable three times.

Was allowed, the amount of change to spell DCs would be minor compared to ability scores, enhancements, epic destines, feats,
items, more items, etc...



Ditto for
Martial Specialist ~ you have obtains all arcane epic destiny sphere past lives.
You gain stacking +1 to all your combat DCs.
Obtainable three times.

I'm okay with small increases in spell DC for the epic destiny feats. I think +3 (e.g. if a +1 bonus were stackable three times) would be too much and think +1 DC (as a single non-stacking bonus from one sphere) would be more appropriate since virtually every spell school provides either AoE CC or insta-kills.

For combat tactics feats like stuns, etc, I'm okay with larger DC increases as long as something is done about the anomalous 'insta-kill with a tactics DC' that is Quivering Palm. I know there are AoE knockdowns here too, but they feel less powerful than long-term CC like Web or Otto's.

I appreciate that past lives give less DC than items and other things, but I don't really see that as overly relevant. The point that past lives stack with everything mean I think looking at figures of similarly geared characters makes more sense.

If you use that method: the gap of 5 Conjuration DC between a first lifer and a completionist, three cleric PL, active wizard PL character, is already sufficiently large in my opinion. Blow it out to 8 DC and it gets weird to scale.

Should the 8 DC higher web be no fail in endgame EE? If so, that's a bit sad. Alternatively, should it only be say 80% success? If so, then the first lifer, who has still dedicated every single point possible into Conjuration, can't bring Web CC into EEs since 40% isn't going to do the job.

I agree there should be reward for time investment into past lives (though I remain skeptical of the merits of allowing completionist to stack multiple times). My point is that I don't think the absence of past lives should be a barrier to playing EE since what a good portion of potential players find fun is knowing they are playing the end game.

If we blow out DCs (even further), that's a sure fire way to either remove challenge or new players from the endgame.

[Scraap]

I'm okay with small increases in spell DC for the epic destiny feats. I think +3 (e.g. if a +1 bonus were stackable three times) would be too much and think +1 DC (as a single non-stacking bonus from one sphere) would be more appropriate since virtually every spell school provides either AoE CC or insta-kills.

For combat tactics feats like stuns, etc, I'm okay with larger DC increases as long as something is done about the anomalous 'insta-kill with a tactics DC' that is Quivering Palm. I know there are AoE knockdowns here too, but they feel less powerful than long-term CC like Web or Otto's.

I appreciate that past lives give less DC than items and other things, but I don't really see that as overly relevant. The point that past lives stack with everything mean I think looking at figures of similarly geared characters makes more sense.

If you use that method: the gap of 5 Conjuration DC between a first lifer and a completionist, three cleric PL, active wizard PL character, is already sufficiently large in my opinion. Blow it out to 8 DC and it gets weird to scale.

Should the 8 DC higher web be no fail in endgame EE? If so, that's a bit sad. Alternatively, should it only be say 80% success? If so, then the first lifer, who has still dedicated every single point possible into Conjuration, can't bring Web CC into EEs since 40% isn't going to do the job.

I agree there should be reward for time investment into past lives (though I remain skeptical of the merits of allowing completionist to stack multiple times). My point is that I don't think the absence of past lives should be a barrier to playing EE since what a good portion of potential players find fun is knowing they are playing the end game.

If we blow out DCs (even further), that's a sure fire way to either remove challenge or new players from the endgame.

Pretty much what I was getting at upthread about progressing along pre-existing feat-chains per EPL (And I probably could have put that better. Figured the groups of three made it obvious. By some of the responses, apparently not.). Moar power, without necessarily locking out folks just coming up, or alts from contributing via one aspect if they focus on it.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned that should probably be hashed out: Should ETR benefits exceed normal TRing, given that for a normal one, a portion of that life is spent away from accumulating relevant endgame gear, whereas with an ETR, there's quite a bit less of a gap in time (if at all, considering what actual epic levels truly contribute in the scheme of things)?

[JasonJi72]

I agree that Heroic TRing on a Legend life is infinitely less 'grindy' than going from 20 to 28, and the past life feats should reflect this. If there is no xp penalty, you could probably get 3 Epic Past lives easier, or less painful, than running yet another Legend life through content that you are beginning to find quite nausiating.

On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.

[JasonJi72]

I agree that Heroic TRing on a Legend life is infinitely MORE 'grindy' than going from 20 to 28, and the past life feats should reflect this. If there is no xp penalty, you could probably get 3 Epic Past lives easier, or less painful, than running yet another Legend life through content that you are beginning to find quite nausiating.

On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.

I love how the new forums won't let me edit posts. I really do!

[Silverleafeon]

This is funny.

Quite a few people think that the game should be tailored to them, and because they don't want to slowly spend more time working on their toons, then DDO should not reward time and effort spent playing the game.

The carrots are so bad right now and the past lives are so outdated by the increases made by the introductions of new loot, more levels, and epic destinies, that people think they have the right to demand that DDO not reward time and effort spent in the game.

Quite a few people think first life toons should be similar to fourty or hundred life toons.

Then people log in for the next update, complain about the loot not being uber enough, play for two weeks, then go find another game to play.

DDO is going to be here for long time, and the Devs should place some long term goals.

Having trouble with Epic Normal or Epic Hard? Currently a lot of people sneer at those difficulties. I enjoy those difficulties. Epic Elite is a challenge for me and I think that is good. No one should take for granted Epic Elite, if they breeze thru it with a first life toon, something about the game is wrong.

People are protesting and have been protesting because they don't want to have to play the game more just to stay at the top. This makes no sense. Effort and playing time should be rewarded. Its not just here and now or one person, its been many places since updating reincarnation discussions started.


When combat DCs hit 70ish, any past life bonues are very, very small.

When spell DCs hit 50ish and way beyond, any past life bonuses are very, very small.

[Silverleafeon]

I love how the new forums won't let me edit posts. I really do!

Right click on edit post button and use the option to open in a new tab.
After you are done typing, open or refresh another page and make sure you are still logged in.
Then return to the edit and submit.

[Silverleafeon]

On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.

This.

So much has changed since TRing was introduced.
Inflation has seriously degraded past life bonuses.

[Braegan]

This is funny.

Quite a few people think that the game should be tailored to them, and because they don't want to slowly spend more time working on their toons, then DDO should not reward time and effort spent playing the game.

The carrots are so bad right now and the past lives are so outdated by the increases made by the introductions of new loot, more levels, and epic destinies, that people think they have the right to demand that DDO not reward time and effort spent in the game.

Quite a few people think first life toons should be similar to fourty or hundred life toons.



Well I think the game should at least attempt to maintain a sense of balance.

And as far as first life toons being comparable to 40th or 100th life toons, that all depends on the build.

Most first life melee, twinked out (easier to do now then ever) can keep the pace a multi-trd melee.

A first life Shiradi caster (sure you gotta work your way there) can be just as viable as a multi-trd one.

A first life DC caster will not be close to a DC caster with multiple Spell Pen PLs and a few more DCs.

Most of what you are talking about has already happened for alot of builds. EDs in general have made multi-trs not that much better then a first lifer with similar gear. So previously, a grind was released as a means to an alternative end-game and/or a way to increase your chacters power. Now, a bit later they release EDs and insane gear that all but trivializes PLs. Now they are announcing a brand new grind as a means to an alternative end-game and/or a way to increase your characters power...Hmmm.

Now so long as it has fun in it, I don't mind being a hamster at the wheel. But, make no mistake that's exactly what they want.

To further, I think the answer would be for these ED PLs to be unique and fun, but not game breaking and not stacking. A first life toon should have the ability to hold his own on EN-EH and depending on build be able to contribute on challenging EE. (Casters especially DC ones are going to have the toughest time here). Multi-trd, ED trd characters should be a cut above the rest and be able of completing the most difficult of content. But they shouldn't be so far ahead that the only option is to either tr and ed tr a bunch of times or just quit as you will never reach the level of folks who have played the game longer/with more frequency than you.

[Oxarhamar]

I agree that Heroic TRing on a Legend life is infinitely less 'grindy' than going from 20 to 28, and the past life feats should reflect this. If there is no xp penalty, you could probably get 3 Epic Past lives easier, or less painful, than running yet another Legend life through content that you are beginning to find quite nausiating.

On the bright side, I don't see much reason to TR anymore. I was proud of my monk and ranger past lives... until I saw my first +9 to melee/ranged damage item.

I don't understand this logic.

Past life Monk +1 damage
Past life Ranger +2 ranged damage

all together that's still +3 damage and +9 damage on ranged / after equipping a Deadly +9 melee ranged damage that's +12 melee and +18 Ranged

[Tilomere]

Primal avatar could use a +4 summons/pet/hire level, up to your current level, and some sort of stacking natural defense added to pets/summons/hires (stone skin>mithral skin>adamantine skin 30dr/adamantine?). Primal avatar and druids have a lot of summons/pet abilities, and many druids/artificers need to multiclass to get die step for handwraps or feats. Mages would be better able to multiclass for utility. Multiclassing can leave pets lacking, and EE content leaves summons and multi-classed pets lacking. All spell summons start to fade past level 1-17 when you originally get them. Monster Summon 9 Hezrou is lvl 16, so would need 3 stack of +4 to be 28. In addition, everyone uses the appropriate level hires, instead of the ones they like on live.

This would help the PA dryad, as well all summons, hirelings, and pets scale and function in higher difficulties, while adding more hireling variation at cap, and customization under cap.

Stacked 3x, it may also make deep splashing and arcane viable, as the summon spells and skele pet would be decent. Currently I'm not aware of any way to deep splash any arcane effectively. If this is something you don't want to change in this way, you may want to consider making it +4 summons/pet level for natural pets and summons only. That way druids can still bring back the wolf pack!

----------------------

I do have a question about patron reputation and flagging. Would one lose all the reputation and quest completion and flags for non-epic quests? I would hope not.

If we are going to do a 3x 20-28 grind of 18M xp, it would be a lot more pleasant if we could change a few levels each time for a slightly different twist to your character and varied experience. 18M xp is a long time. Longer than it would take to roll up an entirely new character, with twists, and enjoy an entirely new play experience.

[Oxarhamar]

Primal avatar could use a +4 summons/pet/hire level, up to your current level, and some sort of stacking natural defense added to pets/summons/hires (stone skin>mithral skin>adamantine skin 30dr/adamantine?). Primal avatar and druids have a lot of summons/pet abilities, and many druids/artificers need to multiclass to get die step for handwraps or feats. Mages would be better able to multiclass for utility. Multiclassing can leave pets lacking, and EE content leaves summons and multi-classed pets lacking. All spell summons start to fade past level 1-17 when you originally get them. Monster Summon 9 Hezrou is lvl 16, so would need 3 stack of +4 to be 28. In addition, everyone uses the appropriate level hires, instead of the ones they like on live.

This would help the PA dryad, as well all summons, hirelings, and pets scale and function in higher difficulties, while adding more hireling variation at cap, and customization under cap.

Stacked 3x, it may also make deep splashing and arcane viable, as the summon spells and skele pet would be decent. Currently I'm not aware of any way to deep splash any arcane effectively. If this is something you don't want to change in this way, you may want to consider making it +4 summons/pet level for natural pets and summons only. That way druids can still bring back the wolf pack!

----------------------

I do have a question about patron reputation and flagging. Would one lose all the reputation and quest completion and flags for non-epic quests? I would hope not.

If we are going to do a 3x 20-28 grind of 18M xp, it would be a lot more pleasant if we could change a few levels each time for a slightly different twist to your character and varied experience. 18M xp is a long time. Longer than it would take to roll up an entirely new character, with twists, and enjoy an entirely new play experience.

I like the +to summon level but, if it doesn't effect all pets than its bunk. Natural only is a low blow for Artificer.

[ElCuriouso]

My lady and I are VIP members, we are both now level 20 and have tried [repeatedly] to activate our epic destinies but to no avail.

We used the lessor heart of wood +20 we were given and reincarnated our characters. again we tried to activate our epic destinies, again to no avail.

No paths are available to us. have followed all instructions but nothing works.

was wondering if anyone else is suffering from this bug?

[eonfreon]

My lady and I are VIP members, we are both now level 20 and have tried [repeatedly] to activate our epic destinies but to no avail.

We used the lessor heart of wood +20 we were given and reincarnated our characters. again we tried to activate our epic destinies, again to no avail.

No paths are available to us. have followed all instructions but nothing works.

was wondering if anyone else is suffering from this bug?

Is this your first time hitting level 20? If so, have you purchased the Epic Destinies? They are not free to VIPs. You either have to buy them separately or as part of the MoTU Expansion bundle.

Might that be the issue?

[Deadnettle]

My druid is healing/offensive casting oriented.

I play in the Shiradi Champion Primal Destiny.

I was wondering if there will be healing/casting oriented feats to choose from in the Primal Sphere if you eTR. Will I have to earn 'sphere points' in the arcane/divine areas to get appropriate feats? Will this mean more playing in a bad destiny?

Please say primal epic past life feats will go beyond TWF, THF and ranged.

[Silverleafeon]

I do have a question about patron reputation and flagging. Would one lose all the reputation and quest completion and flags for non-epic quests? I would hope not.


An excellent question, indeed!

For a heroic reincarnation {or maybe also an iconic reincarnation} that starts over and gains new, so far it looks like reflagging / refavor will be needed.

However, this epic reincarnation does not lose the heroic levels, hence it is more akin to a lesser reincarnation. Therefore, it is possible flagging and favor might/could be left along. This would encourage more players shy about reincarnation to participate, imho.

[Silverleafeon]

My druid is healing/offensive casting oriented.

I play in the Shiradi Champion Primal Destiny.

I was wondering if there will be healing/casting oriented feats to choose from in the Primal Sphere if you eTR. Will I have to earn 'sphere points' in the arcane/divine areas to get appropriate feats? Will this mean more playing in a bad destiny?

Please say primal epic past life feats will go beyond TWF, THF and ranged.

Aye, I would hope to see a mixed bag in the primal sphere.

[Silverleafeon]

To me balance is reviewing all parts of DDO occasionally to see if they need upgrading as the game evolves.

To me balance is bringing forth a variety pack of new classes, iconics, races, creative ideas, quests, raids, challenges, events, etc...

To me balance is working on a variety of areas in DDO, prioritizing them, but granting attention to all in due time.

To me balance is tending the garden and weeding the bugs continually with a crew who knows what they are doing, while others create new content.

To me balance involves rewarding time and effort spent playing the game as well as realizing its a social luxury entertainment.

[Yaga_Nub]

To me balance is reviewing all parts of DDO occasionally to see if they need upgrading as the game evolves.

To me balance is bringing forth a variety pack of new classes, iconics, races, creative ideas, quests, raids, challenges, events, etc...

To me balance is working on a variety of areas in DDO, prioritizing them, but granting attention to all in due time.

To me balance is tending the garden and weeding the bugs continually with a crew who knows what they are doing, while others create new content.

To me balance involves rewarding time and effort spent playing the game as well as realizing its a social luxury entertainment.

To me balance is having a final say and then leaving the thread for others to give their opinions. It's probably time we both did that.

[Qhualor]

My druid is healing/offensive casting oriented.

I play in the Shiradi Champion Primal Destiny.

I was wondering if there will be healing/casting oriented feats to choose from in the Primal Sphere if you eTR. Will I have to earn 'sphere points' in the arcane/divine areas to get appropriate feats? Will this mean more playing in a bad destiny?

Please say primal epic past life feats will go beyond TWF, THF and ranged.

that's my hope too. the past lives should be epic, generalized so different builds can benefit from it and creative, but still related to those spheres.

[Silverleafeon]

To me balance is having a final say and then leaving the thread for others to give their opinions. It's probably time we both did that.

Respectfully agreed.

Cheers.

[sirgog]

This is funny.

Quite a few people think that the game should be tailored to them, and because they don't want to slowly spend more time working on their toons, then DDO should not reward time and effort spent playing the game.

The carrots are so bad right now and the past lives are so outdated by the increases made by the introductions of new loot, more levels, and epic destinies, that people think they have the right to demand that DDO not reward time and effort spent in the game.

Quite a few people think first life toons should be similar to fourty or hundred life toons.

Then people log in for the next update, complain about the loot not being uber enough, play for two weeks, then go find another game to play.

DDO is going to be here for long time, and the Devs should place some long term goals.

Having trouble with Epic Normal or Epic Hard? Currently a lot of people sneer at those difficulties. I enjoy those difficulties. Epic Elite is a challenge for me and I think that is good. No one should take for granted Epic Elite, if they breeze thru it with a first life toon, something about the game is wrong.

People are protesting and have been protesting because they don't want to have to play the game more just to stay at the top. This makes no sense. Effort and playing time should be rewarded. Its not just here and now or one person, its been many places since updating reincarnation discussions started.


When combat DCs hit 70ish, any past life bonues are very, very small.

When spell DCs hit 50ish and way beyond, any past life bonuses are very, very small.

You need to learn how DCs work.

The difference between a 73 DC and a 70 DC is no different - at all - to the difference between a 16 and 13 DC. (Whereas the difference between hitting for 73 damage and 70 damage is much smaller than the difference between 16 and 13 damage).

A 15% jump in character effectiveness is enormous, and those past lives that give it (Fighter x3 for tactics, Sorc x3 for Implosion builds and some damage casters, Wizard x1 for all DC casters, Clr x3 for some damage casters, Pal x3 for all tanks) are absolutely mandatory to not feel like you are a millstone around your group's neck when running non-trivial content. Of course many past lives do not grant 5% power jumps and these are now mostly forgotten (Bbn, Mnk, Rog, etc). Technically the +3 DC increases are more than a 15% power boost as going from 50% to land a spell to 65% is a 30% improvement in effectiveness per mana, 30% more effectiveness per second spent casting, and also means you are more likely to survive as you land more of the spells that are in 'if this does not land, I'm dead' situations.


Also if 'effort' is to be rewarded with in-game power - does that apply to level 24s running Waterworks for the 715th time? That is effort and playtime, is currently not rewarded (outside of the Monster Manual at least) and very much should not be rewarded. Rewards should be given to players for achievements - for running content that is tailored to their skill level, above, or slightly below. Of course it is hard to judge someone's skill level and you need to make your best attempt, but if you want to see what rewards for running trivial content does to a game, try LOTRO out and you will realise why it is such a horrible system when you see level capped characters seriously grinding quests in low-mid level areas to get 'Traits' - which are little 1-2% boosts in character power that all endgame group play is balanced around you having access to.

[McFlay]

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!

Overall, my thoughts on how past lives should function...they should all be things that are desirable, but not really mandatory. Hopefully any bonuses available via the heroic tr system won't also be available in the epic tr system...mainly no more stacking dcs/spell pen bonuses. I don't want to see past life bonuses making certain aspects of the game like the old ac system, where if you have as perfect as you can get minus the tr's you might as well still have 1 because you'll fail all the time anyhow.

Now with that being said...I also think the new epic tr bonuses should also be designed to have at least some desirability cross spheres. Sure a martial sphere's going to have more use for a fighter then a wizard, and an arcane sphere more for a wizard then a fighter, but every sphere should have something pretty much any build can get at least a little benefit from.

Possible examples of bonuses I'd like to see...

martial - prr, % armor piercing, bypass dodge %
primal - % hp, %dodge, % doublestrike/offhand doublestrike/doubleshot
divine - %light absorb, +heal skill, shield doublestrike
arcane - % absorb all elements+force+negative, +spellcraft, +repair

They'd all have a bit of offense and a bit of survivability to them. Numbers really I wouldn't even make them that huge, probably 2's or 3's for most of them, a little higher on the ones where a 2 or 3 is a totally negligible number. I know from reading through the thread some people are expecting some massive godly bonuses...but they're all stackable passive bonuses. They shouldn't be grab the power up and win the game type bonuses, just something to give your toon a little extra. If your walking away with a little more offense and a little more survivability, that is ok by me.

Also, if there is a form of epic completionist, I'd make it function differently then heroic completionist. Heroic completionist is already the bonus for being the jack of all trades. How about making epic completionist be more like being the master of one(or of all of them if your an over achiever). I'd make epic completionist be a bonus that gets unlocked when you have 3x past lives of a sphere and 3x past lives of all its corresponding heroic classes. I guess what I'd suggest for bonuses would be different depending if they were passive or selectable in an epic feat slot, but I thought I'd throw this concept out as an alternative to the jack of all trades type completionist we already have.

Finally, for iconic tr's, I think the thing I'd most like to see for their bonus, rather then more stackable passive bonuses, would be extra AP that are usable only in your race tree. Again, doesn't have to be a lot. I'd be willing to do it for +1 AP for each iconic I TR as, assuming more are going to be added at some point. It'd still be free points to grab some low level enhancements, and to make some of the more expensive ones that currently aren't worth it a little more tempting to grab. When the enhancement update first came to be first thing I looked through was the racial trees, and I thought a lot of them looked really cool. Then I looked through the class trees and realized most of the racial trees wouldn't ever really be seeing much AP from me. Its not that the racial trees are really bad, its just a lot of the class trees are amazing.

And if anyone's read this far your probably thinking, man, that guy really must hate tr'ing with all those little bonuses he proposed, but the thing is, I love tr'ing. That's why I'm looking at the bonuses not as what is each life going to give me, but what is the sum of the whole going to be. A lot of little bonuses get pretty significant when you start to add them up.

[Oxarhamar]

Also, if there is a form of epic completionist, I'd make it function differently then heroic completionist. Heroic completionist is already the bonus for being the jack of all trades. How about making epic completionist be more like being the master of one(or of all of them if your an over achiever). I'd make epic completionist be a bonus that gets unlocked when you have 3x past lives of a sphere and 3x past lives of all its corresponding heroic classes. I guess what I'd suggest for bonuses would be different depending if they were passive or selectable in an epic feat slot, but I thought I'd throw this concept out as an alternative to the jack of all trades type completionist we already have.

.

I have to disagree with this bit.

there is no reason to tie epic completionist to heroic past lives.

3x heroic past lives for all heroic classes in a sphere is 9 heroic lives for most spheres and 6 for only 1 but, doing so would completely negate the fact that Epic Reincarnation only takes you back to level 20 and you'll be forced to Epic Reincarnate and Heroic Reincarnate.

[Silverleafeon]

You need to learn how DCs work...

Since you quoted me, and you made an extremely good point, I will reply, but otherwise will leave this thread alone.

I do agree with you that STACKING past lives bonuses are to be viewed with caution.
I do agree with you that DCs should be careful to avoid the d20 boundaries.


Notice that I continually have stated please remove the past life purchasable feats.
This includes Wizard past life being removed from game = -1 overall spell DC
This includes Bard past life being removed from game = -1 enchant DC
This makes the overall increases from first life less.



As a compromise to you and everyone else concerned, I would offer this:

Instead of normal bonuses instead grant similar to this:
Bonus for obtaining all Arcane Sphere past lives once: auto grant at level one Spell Focus in all schools.
Bonus for obtaining all Arcane Sphere past lives twice: auto grant at level eleven Greater Spell Focus in all schools.
Bonus for obtaining all Arcane Sphere past lives thrice: auto grant at level twenty one Epic Spell Focus in all schools.

This maintains the d20 limitations ranging within the game already yet grants bonuses for ER that are desirable.
It also leaves the choice of removing or not removing purchasable past life feat as a separate issue.
{Although I highly recommend removal of it. *}
{*Must be added the Monk purchasable past life feat unarmed strike bonus somewhere in the martial sphere.}



Strongly consider splitting these between spheres instead of grouping them into arcane only such as:

Bonus for obtaining all Arcane Sphere past lives once: auto grant at level one Spell Focus in enchantment, evocation, and necromancy schools.
Bonus for obtaining all Arcane Sphere past lives twice: auto grant at level eleven Greater Spell Focus in enchantment, evocation, and necromancy schools.
Bonus for obtaining all Arcane Sphere past lives thrice: auto grant at level twenty one Epic Spell Focus in enchantment, evocation, and necromancy schools.

Bonus for obtaining all Divine Sphere past lives once: auto grant at level one Spell Focus in abjuration, conjuration, and divination schools.
Bonus for obtaining all Divine Sphere past lives twice: auto grant at level eleven Greater Spell Focus in abjuration, conjuration, and divination schools.
Bonus for obtaining all Divine Sphere past lives thrice: auto grant at level twenty one Epic Spell Focus in abjuration, conjuration, and divination schools.

Bonus for obtaining all Primal Sphere past lives once: auto grant at level one Spell Focus in illusion and transmutation schools along with some melee type bonus.
Bonus for obtaining all Primal Sphere past lives twice: auto grant at level eleven Greater Spell Focus in illusion and transmutation schools along with melee type bonus..
Bonus for obtaining all Primal Sphere past lives thrice: auto grant at level twenty one Epic Spell Focus in illusion and transmutation schools along with melee type bonus..


Bonus for obtaining all Martial Sphere past lives once: auto grant at level one Combat Focus**
Bonus for obtaining all Martial Sphere past lives twice: auto grant at level eleven Greater Combat Focus**
Bonus for obtaining all Martial Sphere past lives thrice: auto grant at level twenty one Epic Combat Focus**

{**I recommend a new feat group be created ~ Combat Focus, Greater Combat Focus, and Epic Combat Focus granting +1 stacking combat DCs.}





These make Epic Completionist not as crucial as they are part of this....

{Completionist, Epic Completionist, and Iconic Completionist should not stack with each other as the dangers are shown above,
hopefully all three should apply bonuses for 3x gained, and be autogranted.}


I do feel that this compromise offers reward as well as caution to not leave first thru fourth life toon behind.
Edit: Spoke with another uber completionist on Khyber, and he accepted this compromise easily.


I am done and out of here, cheers.
Carry on.

[slarden]

I mentioned previously somewhere in this thread that I really like the dev's approach to epic reincarnation and applaud the team on their approach to this. Here are a few thoughts/questions/suggestions in no specific order:

1) I like the passive past life feats from heroic TR because there is always an incentive to TR to get a stacking benefit. It sounds like the new system will only have active feats if I am understanding correctly, is this correct?
2) Since re-spec isn't part of this, I assume 38 point build is also off the table?
3) It would be great if the new raid in January supported epic reincarnation the way shroud supported heroic TR with lower level gear that was usable to cap. This would mean some nice min level 20 items. Alternatively, you could boost some of the old epic gear or offer min level 20 epic gear in a variety of quests. The best thing about greensteel is that once you reached level 11/12 you didn't need to keep switching those gear slots.
4) It would be great to give us your thoughts on how the epic reincarnation past life feats will work
5) Will there be higher xp requirements like there is with heroic TR?
6) I think people would like it if you could select an active destiny and another destiny for xp. It would be fine if you wanted to give reduced xp if the destiny selected for xp was different, but it's just more fun to play in a usable destiny - not to mention more beneficial to the party.

Thank you again for interacting with us about epic reincarnation. I look forward to future updates.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Thread started on Sept. 13th, last post by a Dev on the 13th, asking nicely/politely/sincerely for some more communication/information please & thanks a bunch!

I had NO Internet @ home for 12 days starting from Friday Sept. 13th until this morning(Wednesday Sept. 26th). Since then no other dev posts at all no communication at all.

Again I am asking/begging some more info, anything at all please & thanks a bunch! It would be *greatly* appreciated! :P! :)! Finally just caught up & read all/every single post.

Interesting ideas I guess. Need more info on U20 & the rebalancing of xp in quests: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418925-Upcoming-Quest-XP-Changes

Also please more bug fixes/quality of life fixes: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/417151-Quality-of-Life-Fixes

And more ideas: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418590-East-Bucket-List-for-Devs-revisited

Thanks for listening!(I hope! :)) Cheers!

[Hunta-EU]

Ok had this idea last night. Apologies if someone already suggested this but im not gonna read through 16 pages.

If the plan is to have 1 x 3 stackable sphere ED passed life feat, how about we get to choose one T1 twist from any ED on that sphere which can be made T1, 2 and 3 from 3 epic trs?

So for example I could get Coccoon T3 for my primal PL feat after 3 epic trs and ...
Brace for impact as my divine sphere PL feat after another 3.
Unearthly Reactions for Arcane, another 3.
Legendary Tactics for Martial...

You get the picture.

I know Brace for Impact that has 2 tiers but idea is a work IP.

A extra T1 twist per sphere is the idea. Testing the waters here.

A real benefit for what should be an EPIC Passed Life Feat.

Cheers Hunta

[Oxarhamar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzKtUTN-eDs&feature=youtu.be

0.30 seconds

[lain5246]

i was thinking that instead of ability points for epic compleationist that we get 2 enhancement points to heroic and 2 fate points in epic. but than maybe that would not fly.

[Shammie]

Just an idea for how I think Epic TR should be handled

Epic TR = Max current DDO + Sphere Max lvled xp
Give each sphere its own xp bar and shouldn't reset unless you Epic TR from that sphere
Epic TR <Sphere> Past life ex.
Epic TR Arcane
x1 = +2 DC universal; 1 Arcane Destiny point added to be used in Arcane Sphere; 1 Fate point
x2 = +4 Spell Penetration; 1 Arcane Destiny point added to be used in Arcane Sphere; 1 Fate point
x3 = +20 universal spell power, 50 mp;1 Arcane Destiny point added to Arcane Sphere; 1 Fate point; Ability to Twist 1 Lvl 5 Arcane only if unlocked slot

Following the same pattern for the other 3 Spheres

Epic TR should not reset quest favor. Only a Total TR should if your going back to lvl 1

Sphere XP should be scaled in relation to Herioc this shouldn't be considered a grind as your are playing the sphere normally if you are maxed all Destiny's anyways.

Epic Completionist = Allowing to use <XYZ> Destiny Sphere points into any destiny you choose totally 12 points that can be used universally.

[Oxarhamar]

Just an idea for how I think Epic TR should be handled

Epic TR = Max current DDO + Sphere Max lvled xp
Give each sphere its own xp bar and shouldn't reset unless you Epic TR from that sphere
Epic TR <Sphere> Past life ex.
Epic TR Arcane
x1 = +2 DC universal; 1 Arcane Destiny point added to be used in Arcane Sphere; 1 Fate point
x2 = +4 Spell Penetration; 1 Arcane Destiny point added to be used in Arcane Sphere; 1 Fate point
x3 = +20 universal spell power, 50 mp;1 Arcane Destiny point added to Arcane Sphere; 1 Fate point; Ability to Twist 1 Lvl 5 Arcane only if unlocked slot

Following the same pattern for the other 3 Spheres

Epic TR should not reset quest favor. Only a Total TR should if your going back to lvl 1

Sphere XP should be scaled in relation to Herioc this shouldn't be considered a grind as your are playing the sphere normally if you are maxed all Destiny's anyways.

Epic Completionist = Allowing to use <XYZ> Destiny Sphere points into any destiny you choose totally 12 points that can be used universally.

I like this idea.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Been 15? days now without any new real info. Start of a new month, October, hoping vainly for some new real info/communication.

Asking nicely/sincerely/politely, please & thanks in advance! It would be greatly appreciated! :P! :)! Cheers!

[Silverleafeon]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzKtUTN-eDs&feature=youtu.be

0.30 seconds

"....We would also like to warn you that pretty soon we will be going into very deep details about the Epic Reincarnation system...."

References this thread.

"...Really soon we are going into really deep details into how epic reincarnation works in relationship to all the reincarnations..."

Encourages players to check out this thread.

[Silverleafeon]

Latest stuff: gathering up all the Dev Tracker from this thread:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/425596-Paradigm-Shift-how-we-are-looking-at-Epic-Reincarnation
started 09-13-2013, 01:56 PM


I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E


Well, Maj Mal is one heck of a Trekkie.

Quote Originally Posted by redspecter23 View Post
I'm a bit confused about the sphere xp.


Our current plan for Epic Past Life feats is to tie a few of these feats to each Sphere, instead of tying each Past Life to a specific Epic Destiny.

When you Epic Reincarnate you choose which sphere you want a past life from. For instance, if you want a Primal Past Life, you spend points earned while you had any primal Epic Destiny active, and you choose one feat to gain from the list of possible Primal Epic Past Life feats.

The details regarding these Epic Past Lives are still being designed. Early thoughts are that these are likely to stack three times, like Heroic Past Lives.

If you have amazing ideas for possible Epic Past Lives, now is a good time to try to squeak those ideas into our ears!


Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post
Just one question.
What if I'm an Iconic and want an Iconic and Epic past life?


Not at the same time. (which is an answer that surely leads to more questions)
We will have more on that when we go over the entire Reincarnation system... soon.
Iconics will be able to gain the Epic PL, unlike the previous proposal.

Quote Originally Posted by Silverleafeon View Post

A new word for Fawn:

par·a·digm
/?par??d?m/
noun
noun: paradigm;?plural noun: paradigms

1. technical
a typical example or pattern of something; a model.
"there is a new paradigm for public art in this country"
synonyms: model, pattern, example, exemplar, template, standard, prototype, archetype More


A shift in such paradigm is when something you thought to be true is actually false... at least for my intended usage. We thought the world was flat, then we learned it is round. Or... we thought the Epic loop had to take you to Lv 1 and at great cost (and there were valid design reasons to do so). When that limitation was lifted a new pattern emerged.

Quote Originally Posted by Gratch View Post

Weird. I would have thought you'd treat iconics for TR purposes like a heroic class except that it gets to level 15 XP on the first life. Any TR's into iconics start at 1. Hence an Iconic TR would be similar to a Wizard TR and you could combine it with an epic TR as listed in your examples. Not sure why Iconics should care about epic stuff.


Yup. Iconics get a whole section on how they fit into TR.
Reincarnation and Iconics is pretty straight forward but I think it makes more sense when the whole system is laid out.

Quote Originally Posted by memloch View Post

Will there be a passive and active component to the feats like Heroic?

For completionist do Iconics need to be completed as well?


To clarify our thinking on earning points in a Sphere: You continue to earn points in the sphere of your active Epic Destiny even if your Epic Destiny is capped on XP. There is a cap on the points you can earn in a Sphere, and you spend these points when performing Epic Reincarnation. Sphere points act like currency, even though they are normally earned alongside experience.

(Eventually we're going to come up with a real name besides "points in a Sphere".)



We are leaning towards not doing this in the same way as Heroic Past Lives. We'd rather spend time making the granted Past Lives better. However, we are considering having activated, granted Past Lives, so activated abilities are still a possibility.



Iconic Heroes are essentially a separate system with their own design.

It is unlikely that Epic Completionist would involve Iconic Past Lives.
Iconic Heroes can perform Epic Reincarnations like any other character.
We don't currently intend for the existing Heroic Completionist to be affected by Epic or Iconic Past Lives.

We'll discuss more Iconic Hero details later on.

Quote Originally Posted by Deathdefy View Post

Is my understanding that you can apply the 'sphere points' earned in one destiny toward any other destiny within the same sphere correct?

So I could gather all past lives just in Draconic (Arcane), Unyielding (Divine), Shadow Dancer (Martial) and Fury (Primal)?


We currently expect the "return to level 20" part of Epic Reincarnation to essentially mean sacrificing your Epic class level progress (you keep Epic Destiny progress) while retaining your Heroic progress exactly as it is. There are other forms of Reincarnation for affecting Heroic advancement.


Yes, it's true that you aren't spending points associated with an Epic Destiny. Though you don't exactly apply earned points towards Epic Destinies per se, as Epic Past Lives are not associated with any destiny, nor are the points you are earning in the Sphere.


Yes, or whatever Epic Destiny you prefer in each sphere.

Also the latest video mentions the subject too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzKtUTN-eDs&feature=youtu.be

0.30 seconds


;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
OLDER Dev Tracker posts
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

Just reposting for those not wanting to hunt thru 89 pages of the old thread:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthread.php/418543-Epic-Level-amp-Iconic-TR

Best bet, hunt the Dev Tracker
https://www.ddo.com/en/forums/post_tracker.php?tracker=devtracker

Just for kicks, I'll quote them all from this thread:


I am excited to start sharing our plans for the future of the Reincarnation system! Later this year (targeting Update 20) we look forward to introducing two new TR destinations, Epic Destiny True Reincarnation and Iconic True Reincarnation. We’ve got some minor improvements involving Lesser and Greater Reincarnation in store, as well.


We’ve seen a number of questions and discussions about TR, Iconics, and the TR / end-game gap. For the expansion pack, we are focused on ensuring that the new races are fun and playable, the content is fun and beautiful, and that the enhancement system changes launch as expected! With that, we plan to build out the TR system later in the year. The team is also taking the time to get your early feedback as the designers and engineers lock down feature plans. - How does this fit (or change) your playstyle? Read on for details, then let us know!

A few goals for Epic Destiny TR:



Extend Reincarnation system to allow for 38-point builds
Include Epic Destinies in the TR cycle (with Epic Destiny Past Life Feats)
Reward you for additional investment in Epic Destinies (with starting ranks after TR)
Adjust the XP curve in Epic levels for multi-life TR to avoid the dramatic escalating grind
Include Iconics in the TR cycle (with Iconic Past Life Feats)
Allow you to TR into and out of Iconics (if you own Iconics)


How does this system look in practice?

Heroic True Reincarnation



Heroic TR remains primarily unchanged at level 20 or above
Grants a Class Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up to a 36 point build
Benefits from the Epic Advantage if you earn Epic Destinies before TR (below)


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation



Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)
Grants an Epic Destiny Past Life Feat

Feat based on active, maximized Epic Destiny


Karmic Bond -The active ED’s experience is now bonded through each ED True Reincarnation going forward
Grants a Class Past Life Feat (same as Heroic TR)
You must have a maximized, non-bonded ED to complete this TR
Adds 2 build points up to a 38 point build


Epic Advantage


With any type of True Reincarnation, all Epic Destiny Levels earned will give you an advantage when you rebuild your character, by converting Destiny Levels into Heroic Ranks. Every level of Epic Destiny you have earned will count toward ranks earned for your next life. (Epic Destinies will not carry over to your next life, except those destinies that you have bonded in previous lives with ED TR.)

Iconic True Reincarnation

That’s right; Iconics will have their own form of True Reincarnation, earning their own unique set of past-life feats. You will also be able to TR from any character into an Iconic, which begins at level 15, like normal. Epic Advantage also works on both ends, as well, transferring ED XP earned in your Iconic life, and, if you TR into an Iconic, adding XP on top of your level 15 starting XP.Can be taken at Level Cap (Level 28 with Shadowfell Conspiracy)



Grants an Iconic Past Life Feat that can stack up to 3x
Adds 2 build points up a 36 point build
Earns ranks from Epic Advantage


What else?

Here are some changes we’re currently exploring:



Reincarnation cooldown timer reduced to 3 days.
Reincarnation XP curves smoothed to ease penalties for multiple lives.
Lesser Reincarnation will allow a Heroic character to reincarnate as a Champion. Greater Reincarnation will no longer be sold, in favor of an improved Lesser Reincarnation.
Iconic characters will be able to Lesser Reincarnate


We are eager to begin production on this system and appreciate the many players that are eager to see us fulfill the end game potential that the TR system presents. With these changes we are also keeping a long-term view for TR, such as how to expand the Epic Destiny system and continue to support level cap growth in the future.


Our sincere intentions are to provide these features to you, and the DDO community at large. We invite you response to these details and thank you for your support and fortitude while we roll these changes out in support of this year’s expansion pack. The team is thrilled that DDO continues to grow, innovate, and provide a great D&D experience.


Thanks for all the responses so far everyone. The team will try to address the details as best we can this early in development. Here are a few more clarifications as we’re reviewing your comments:

• Our intention is that players will be able to earn or buy Epic Destiny TR hearts of wood.
• We’ll continue to add more epic level content so that players have a variety of paths for leveling.
• To engage with Epic Destiny TR, you don’t have to have all destinies maxed out. Character level 28 + one maxed destiny is when you can bond your first destiny.
• We are revisiting XP curves in not only the Heroic levels but also the Epic levels. This would make leveling (and ultimately bonding) a Destiny a faster process compared to the current pace.
• True Reincarnation has always been about giving up your current life in exchange for increased power in your next life. We are early enough in the design work that we want to also hear ideas from players on what types of destiny feats they’d like to see in their next life in exchange for reincarnating their destinies.

We are also making balance changes to compensate for the fact that the system goes into higher levels, and we expect that parts of the design summary will seem less harsh once these details are better understood. We’ll be reading discussion in this thread and will continue to post here with more details as we go (such as details regarding Fate Points, Completionist, and the exact effects of turning in your Epic Destiny xp on your new life).
Introduction.

Please folks, feel free to express your opinions, but fighting each other and flinging insults and name-calling is not necessary.
Fawn went to bed and things got messy in her absence.

Just to address people's passionate comments and opinions here: Keep in mind that this information is being presented to you far in advance of its implementation, and there's plenty of room to re-work the proposal in a variety of ways.
More of the same.

I moved the heading Iconic True Reincarnation into a separate line for better clarity, as it was initially formatted in error. :)
The discussion turned to questioning Cordovan editing the original post.

Also, just to note that the edit was made a few minutes after the post was initially made.

Last edited by Cordovan (https://www.ddo.com/forums/posthistory.php?p=5020407); 06-12-2013 at 01:50 PM.
More of the same.

Hi. Thanks again for your feedback and opinions on the proposed design of the new Epic TR. Here are some of the things the team is currently thinking about.

We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation and not getting enough in return. So, we are investigating some different possibilities in regard to what a character gets after they reincarnate with Epic TR. We’d like to offer a system where the character gets credit for every XP they “burn” from an epic destiny. One scenario for this is that Epic Destiny XP will be converted to heroic XP (using a formula that adjusts for the different rates at which heroic and epic XP are gained). This converted XP would then be used to level up your reincarnated character. This could mean, for example, that a character with a large number of destinies maxed out could immediately level back up to level 20 even as a third life character. Again, this is just an example of one of the things we are considering, but it’s a definite possibility.

Also, to answer a couple of additional questions:

1. With the current design, after this system goes live, going through a Heroic TR will burn non-bonded epic destiny XP, but the character will be compensated for the burned XP. In other words, Heroic TR will work just like Epic TR except it will be available at level 20 instead of level cap and it will not grant Epic past life feats. Allowing Heroic TR to preserve ED XP sort of short-circuits the system, providing a weird incentive to avoid epic level play. You should use Heroic TR if you’d like to reincarnate at level 20 and want the benefits that Heroic TR gives (build points, past life feat). Otherwise, you should consider continuing up to level cap and reincarnating from there where you will get all the benefits of Heroic TR plus the additional benefit of Epic TR (epic past life feats).

2. Currently, store bought Fate Points will be preserved after reincarnation. This will not change. We are investigating ways to somehow preserve regular in-game earned Fate Points, but, behind the scenes, they are different than store bought ones, so it is not completely certain that we will be able to preserve them. If we cannot preserve them, we will look for ways to compensate a character for them.

Stay tuned for more info and explanations of this new system proposal early next week.
Developers return from their weekend and try to restore order.

Please note that the second paragraph, first line is should be read like thus:
We understand your concern about losing Epic Destiny XP upon reincarnation,
and we understand your concern about not getting enough in return.

Wrong. Please, remember that this is more of a brainstorming session than it is a set in stone announcement about what's coming.

Additionally, while we appreciate people's passionate opinions about this issue, the amount of rage in this thread needs to be lowered. Nothing is set in stone. Repeat:

NOTHING IS SET IN STONE.

I have frequently read on the forums that folks would like to see more back and forth with the developers in regards to hot issues undergoing development work. This is your chance to do so in a way that doesn't amount to screaming in someone's face. Keep in mind that there's a lot of discussion taking place based on your feedback, but a lot of that discussion will not be made public until it's in a state to put out there as a possibility or an idea being put forward for feedback.
Cordovan earned his cookies this week, and Fawn noticed that the more she posted the more calm people seemed to be,
so she flooded this thread.

This thread has been read quite a bit by the dev team and other folks directly, and we'll be continuing this discussion throughout the coming days and weeks. Please remember to keep things civil and not insult each other or the Turbine development team.
Greatly encouraging news.

This most important part is "and other folks directly" but I will not elaborate further as I have an ancient NDA.

The team has been having some further design discussions, based on feedback from this thread. It seems important to state - they recognize that several players are already very invested in Epic Destinies, this was absolutely part of the early design discussions. There are a couple Epic game-play solutions in debate that we’ll be sharing with you as well. There won’t be any flash decisions made as design changes are considered, between posts we will be spending a lot of time reviewing the many directions the system can take players, as we are a few months away from starting development.

Thank you for sharing your feedback, reactions and ideas with us. More to come soon, and I'd expect, over the coming weeks as well.

~Erik
@producerglin
They do mean this.
Will not comment further.

Actually "several" may be overstating when we are talking about maxing out all EDs. There is a good portion of players that focus on TR, and others that run only to cap picking up a couple ED's then roll an Alt. There are also casual players that don't play every week and take a very long time to take a character through content.

There are a lot of things to consider when we are adding to a system like TR that impacts so many play styles. I don't expect we will be able to put all the detail into dev posts, but we are trying to respond to the things that are causing the most concern.

Note this contains a typo replace the word "overstating" with "understating".


Hi.
Just wanted to touch base with you all again on this. Your feedback during this early stage of development for this system has definitely been helpful. And I’ll reiterate that because we are early in the process, we haven’t locked anything down. Now on to some additional info.

We have multiple goals with a system like this, such as:
• Give players the new option of TR-ing at level cap.
• Give players more things to achieve with a high level TR type character (like epic destiny past life feats and build points).
• Allow Iconic Hero characters to use the reincarnation system.
• Optimize the system to help people have a good play experience. (This is a tough one, because there are different opinions on what a “good play experience” is, but this could mean giving incentives to concentrate on different Epic Destinies than were played in the previous life, for example.)
• And as a less design-oriented but equally important goal: If changes are needed that affect players’ current investment, compensate them for the changes.

If we can arrive at a place in a given system where we can accomplish all or many of the goals in a way that is good for the game, short term and long term, then that’s a great solution. Many systems, however, are of sufficient complexity to make this a very interesting balancing act. But even with that complexity, it’s still possible to have a good solution. It just takes some time and iteration to get there. This was one of the reasons to start this thread and see what people thought about the new system and the first design proposal.

So, here’s some more info on a couple of options we are currently considering.

Option 1: XP “Bank” System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one ED to bond and then transfers all other ED XP into an XP Bank that can be used at any time to level through heroic levels. Example: A character has five maxed ED’s at level 28. They Epic TR, bond one ED, and then get roughly enough XP to take them back to level 20 in their new life and still have, let’s say, 1,000,000 XP left over to use in their following heroic life (to use at whatever level they want). This option could also come with a onetime opportunity to bond multiple ED’s in one TR (to help those invested in the current system to transfer to the new).

Option 2: Keep Epic Destiny XP System
When Epic TR-ing, a character selects one maxed out ED that he/she will acquire the Past Life feat for. This Epic Destiny is then flagged. (Starting out, you cannot get more than one copy of each ED’s past life feat.) The character then starts at level 1, but all ED XP is preserved at whatever levels it was at.

We are considering more than just these two options, but we thought you might like to know a bit about what we are currently thinking. Thanks again.

One of the more important ones here, and strong concession.


One goal is to fairly reimburse time invested without promoting Epic vs. Heroic based on XP/minute.

The XP ratio hasn't been stated nor determined for reasons you make obvious. This is one of those places where it doesn't even make sense for us to worry deeply about the numbers unless it's decided the idea in general could make any sense. (We know players always love seeing the numbers, but if we went in this direction we'd likely just going to go look at and see how much XP/minute players are actually getting at different levels to figure out a ratio. 1:1 isn't special. It could be 1:3 or 3:1 or pi:e:i.)

Another goal is allowing efficiently earning of heroic class-based past lives while playing epic content. Right now it's "wasteful" to play epic if your primary concern is past lives.

Another goal is to not make heroic reincarnation better than Epic Destiny reincarnation, making it still often "right" to do heroic reincarnation instead of ever playing epic. We of course expect that Epic Destiny reincarnation should be better in some way(s), because it's more effort to achieve it.


Fate Points: An example dive into some details
We are aware of concerns with Fate Points under any proposal. They are somewhat tricksy.

We could consider having characters "remember" how many they had. However, we don't consider it viable to let you gain more Fate Points as you regain Destiny XP (should we choose to go forward with any of proposal where any kind of XP is lost, whether from one destiny or many). That leads to infinite or at least "quite a lot" of Fate Points in the long run. That unfortunately means that if we simply blindly preserve your total but don't let you accumulate more until you would have more: The right thing to do is never TR until you have maxed out all Epic Destinies. We know that some players like to break up earning Destinies with reincarnation, and we would like to support that.

There are some corollary changes we could consider (a system where Destiny levels still earns more Fate Points up to the normal cap, for example) that might work, but the more complicated the proposal the less likely we are to want to use it. Complexity is inherently undesirable for corollaries such as this, in terms of designing the solution, making sure it covers all the bases, making sure all players understand it (including most players who never read the forums, let alone post), and of course actually implementing it... and implementing correctly. The more complicated it is the more likely there are bugs (or even perceived bugs, or just plain confusion, which impact enjoyment of DDO regardless).

This is just one example of topics we've discussed lately. Please don't take this as an indication that we're obviously going with something that causes Destiny XP loss because we've explored this. We're trying many other ideas on like hats, and trying to get it right from the start, exploring some issues now before we pick a single proposal or get near implementing anything. There's quite a lot of other topics brought up internally and on this thread that matter (both to us and to you!)



This is unlikely because there's lots of other things we could do with that development time, which we suspect most players would prefer. It's still easy enough to find non-TR threads where players have plenty of other ideas we can work on. If implementing many options were quick, easy, and unlikely to generate bugs we'd consider it, but Reincarnation doesn't fall into that category, and reincarnation bugs are quite frustrating (for everyone).
A lot there, including a reaction to Fawn's math that one could farm 40 fate points per a life later on.

Great post and thoughts, clear and well presented. Thanks for taking the time to write this us.


Some interesting ideas.

The main post not in this thread, it is made the Player Choice Design Thread started by famous Sig.


Tomes of Fate drop in loot, from Caught in the Web and Fall of Truth.

The discussion wandered a bit here.


That's interesting, I've always personally wondered about this. Thanks for doing it and reporting the results. :)

Someone reported doing a legend life w/o xp pots or repeating quests.


Epic Destiny True Reincarnation is defined as happening at level cap, not at level 28.

If/when the level cap is increased beyond 28, so will the requirement. Yes, this means it's potentially quicker or easier if you do it sooner.

That's our current thinking. This doesn't necessarily mean it will go on and on and on to level 999, but the important bit is that it's not tied to level 28.

The discussion lead to level cap questions after Fawn insisted several times that Epic Destinies will increase to 10 and the level cap will go to 30.

Someone else remarked that First Edition Rules allowed 99 levels for Humans, and an adventure pack actually used those levels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chyghSQajgE

Community Update discuses it as well.

Also DDO Chronicle Issues 48 and 49 encourages people to read and post here.


Just recently three more posts in another thread:


We're putting time into the Epic TR design - for obvious reasons, it's important to you.

Now that Shadowfell Conspiracy has hit Code Freeze (last night), the team is digging into important Patch 1 items like the Warpriest Enhancements tree and picking up Epic TR design again.

I expect we'll have an update for you on Epic TR in the next 3-4 weeks, for feedback before we dig deeply into implementation.

In reply to this:


LOL . . . like 80 pages of torches and pitchforks wasn't enough feedback to let you know how well a blanking of ED XP would go over?

Nope, please burn the castle down.

Seriously speaking, our next version will include that feedback.

Lastly this from the same thread:


I'm not going to disavow the previous design for a few reasons, primarily because I don't want to constrain the freedom of our designers. I want to hear the idea first (I've heard a lot of ideas, I want to get to the one we bring back to you).

Nothing is built, everything is on paper. We definitely got the message that people value their ED progression and don't want to see it wiped. We also want to make TR a tradeoff for players (for Heroic it's character levels for new Feats). I expect Fate Points will play into this in some way. Bear with us a little longer, the goal is to make it a fun system you want to be involved in.

[Silverleafeon]

People were reading the old thread not realizing this thread is "new and improved", so I recapped the Dev Tracker quotes on both threads.

[Oxarhamar]

"Producer Glin will be revealing more details about Epic Reincarnation very soon! You can read the teaser-info in the Official Discussion forum!"

https://www.ddo.com/en/news/ddo-chronicle-issue-64

and another in yet another thread asking when


Expect a post from the DDO dev team very soon!

[Oxarhamar]

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'


think I liked power from pain better now.

[EllisDee37]

think I liked power from pain better now.No kidding.

The current proposal for heroic TR is worse than wiping epic destiny on TR, worse than the "Hard to Kill" mechanic, worse than any of the utterly terrible proposals I've seen before.

[Charononus]

think I liked power from pain better now.

Can we get Fernando back?

[Deadlock]

I am looking forward to providing everyone with the design details of proposed changes to the Reincarnation system in the coming weeks. Before we start rolling out the fact sheets and dev discussions, I intend to get in front of some of the greater concerns that players (and developers) have raised regarding our prior proposal for Epic Reincarnation.

To get to the point: We have really changed direction from what was previously proposed; and I for one am very pleased that the systems team has taken that direction from 'power from pain' to something more palatable, like 'rewarded for efforts.'

Epic reincarnation will require level cap and "points" (TBD) in a "Destiny Sphere" (TBD). This will allow a character to reincarnate from Epic cap to level 20, with equivalent heroic XP.
Doing so will not alter your earned Epic Destinies or Epic Destiny XP, and you can alternatively take a second step and reincarnate your Heroic levels to 1 and benefit from both a Heroic and Epic Past Life [PL] feat.
As you level Epic Destinies you will gain points toward Epic Reincarnation in the active Destiny Sphere (e.g. Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal). Furthermore, there is plan to grant retroactive progress for those of you working on your Epic Destinies today.

Again, this is a departure from the previously shared proposal. The goals we set out to accomplish are still being met with these more generous alterations to the Epic Reincarnation design and I hope to share lots of detail changes in the next week (Soon TM).

~E

Based on the recent information on the cost of TRing in your brave new world, are you still happy that your new vision meets the stated intent of the OP?

Are you trying to play the political trick of coming out with a goddam awful proposal to make your "revised" proposal even more palatable?

[Zeez]

I normally dont like to post anything but seeing some of these ideas is upsetting.

IF you retroactively nerf past lives that people have earned what are you offering them in return? As a VIP on my 3rd wiz life I would feel like you just stole months of my life away. I do not have past lives in any other class on that character. So the suggestion because some people dont like it is to screw the people who have earned it out of it? It is not mandatory that I do all these past lives but I do feel it is worth while time investment. IF you want to remove some of these past life accomplishments I want to know the idea of what those people will get instead?? If the answer is something lack luster or something completely worthless then leave it alone. Right now my vote is to leave it alone. I would be ****ed if you decided to just nullify all the time spent to get those.

Removing tokens for TR is also another horrid idea.
Im also not a fan of what was done with guild augments. You just left them out there in the wind instead of integrating them into the new augment system.
Same thing was done with epic scrolls.

If there was going to be one complaint overall I have with this game is the lack cohesion to tie all these loot systems together. We have too many forms of currency.

If this is the suggestion thread then please make a new bank area call it "The Vault" make it store used items that are btc items only please. I have way too many good btc items eating up precious space.

I am by no means the die hard player but I do play a lot and removing something earned already for something coming in the future is just a bad idea.