Artificer - Shiradi, Magister or Draconic?

[Ushurak]

I am writing with the assumption that I may not know everything even though I would like to convince you otherwise.

I TRd my Arti before making it into Shiradi which really made me sad.
Everyone raves about Shiradi and complains that as an Arti it is pointless to start out in the Arcane circle.

I really tended to agree until last night when I realized something...most Artis are full-blown INT based ...or should be anyway imho, and Shiradi offers nothing for this.

As Magister or Draconic I can take the full right side line of INT feats up either destiny and place points into other useful enhancements as well. This in turn boosts certain skill and feats such as DD, Search, Insightful Reflexes and my To-Hit from Insightful ?Strike? (the spell that lets me use my int for my TH bonuses with a repeater).

So, while the DPS from my repeater may go up while in Shiradi (mostly due to procs) it really strikes me that Magister or Draconic (with some Shadow Dancer splash or maybe even full blown Shadow Dancer) really is the better way to go which in turn seems like the Dev team that worked on the ED system actually knew what they were doing on this front.

Does someone want to give me some non-flaming yet still opposing insight on this?

It would be nice to hear from someone with an Arti that has already been through Shiradi and the Arcane circle and has something to compare each to...opinions are OK as well though :D

Is there a big bad no-no that says an Arti can't go full blown Dex and gimp Int and all the rogueish skills and be a pure ranged DPSer?
If this is the case then I can understand wanting Shiradi to be the main destiny...I also think this would gimp your spells though (possible not even allow you to cast?)

[9Crows]

my artie has fatesinger,draconic,magistar,shadowdancer,legendar y dread,shiraldi and fury completed is now working on primal....

without a doubt while in shiraldi destiny all fights/quests ended faster ...while there are many great things about all the destinys ive ran through there is that one simple fact

i use bb and tactical alot along with my runearm in tandem with xbow... i used that style through all the destinys..

twisting in boulder toss is a nice dps spike in any axtive destiny

[cdr]

Fury of the Wild.

[Ushurak]

my artie has fatesinger,draconic,magistar,shadowdancer,legendar y dread,shiraldi and fury completed is now working on primal....

without a doubt while in shiraldi destiny all fights/quests ended faster ...while there are many great things about all the destinys ive ran through there is that one simple fact

i use bb and tactical alot along with my runearm in tandem with xbow... i used that style through all the destinys..

twisting in boulder toss is a nice dps spike in any active destiny

Are you saying there comes a point where the rogue skills should take a back seat for an Arti?
I am not trying to say that traps and such is the primary focus of an arti; but when you get an arti in the group and no rogue joins, it is kind of expected of you even on EE content (haven't done any EE traps with him yet so I don't know if non-Magister ED is adequate is the main reason I made this thread).

Also...BOULDER TOSS? REALLY? Do tell....

I honestly thought that BT was strictly for those with high Strength....meaning STR approaching or exceeding 35...maybe 40.

[Malison]

Ask yourself: what does my arti bring to the quest/group?

If your primary focus is on dealing ranged damage, then shiradi or maybe shadowdancer are clearly superior. If your primary focus is on blade barrier and tactical detonation, you could argue for magister or draconic.

Stat increases from epic destinies are a trap. The other abilities are vastly superior to them. Consider for a caster: 4 AP for 2 int, or 3 AP for +3 evocation DC. Consider for a dps: 2 AP for +1 dex, or 2 AP for up to +10 damage while standing still.

And if you're the kind of guy who has capped many epic destinies, you could twist the DC's from magister and draconic and be in shiradi for the best of both worlds.


Is there a big bad no-no that says an Arti can't go full blown Dex and gimp Int and all the rogueish skills and be a pure ranged DPSer?
If this is the case then I can understand wanting Shiradi to be the main destiny...I also think this would gimp your spells though (possible not even allow you to cast?)

A pure ranged DPS'er should still be int-based. To-hit is not difficult to get, but Insightful Damage for +15 or more is huge.

--

Re: boulder toss
I've not tried that one, but Wild Shots has been fun with the full force enhancement line.

[9Crows]

Are you saying there comes a point where the rogue skills should take a back seat for an Arti?
I am not trying to say that traps and such is the primary focus of an arti; but when you get an arti in the group and no rogue joins, it is kind of expected of you even on EE content (haven't done any EE traps with him yet so I don't know if non-Magister ED is adequate is the main reason I made this thread).

Also...BOULDER TOSS? REALLY? Do tell....

I honestly thought that BT was strictly for those with high Strength....meaning STR approaching or exceeding 35...maybe 40.

my artie can get every trap and chest in game even on ee that was a given which is why i didnt mention it...twists remember

when you ask for advice about epic destinys and fits you might want to consider what people say .

bouldertoss is awesome on any force specd toon.. i learned that from reading the forums and found it to be true when i tried it in game (although your snarkiness makes me regret mentioning it)

[Ushurak]

my artie can get every trap and chest in game even on ee that was a given which is why i didnt mention it...twists remember

when you ask for advice about epic destinys and fits you might want to consider what people say .

bouldertoss is awesome on any force specd toon.. i learned that from reading the forums and found it to be true when i tried it in game (although your snarkiness makes me regret mentioning it)

NO NO...plz don't take me wrong.
I am REALLY good at snark but this wasn't it.

NO snark intended at all.

It was complete shock that someone other than a Barb or Fighter could use it effectively...it was probably the very last thing I expected to hear.

My apologies.

[TrinityTurtle]

Ah, try them all. :) That's the strength of the destinies, you can try them all out (slowly, admittedly) and get a feel for what YOU enjoy. Personally on my main arty I favor Shadowdancer as my favorite destiny, becuase it fits with how I tend to play her. I'm going to try shiradi eventually after I finish maxing the one in the way between me and it, but I would be surprised if I personally like it better than shadow.

But I don't by any means think all arties should love it, I think they should test drive all the options and see what fits with their playstyles. : )

[FuzzyDuck81]

Yep boulder toss is great, since as its considered a spell (well, SLA since it'll work in antimagic) it gets the damage boosted by force/kinetic/impulse type stuff - lower knockdown chance on low STR characters, but it's a great one to twist, I've had it crit for over 5k damage vs. a non-helpless enemy on my shiradi evoker archmage... have wild shots too & the combination is a pretty potent dps addition, with the bonus of no SP cost :)

Regarding the initial question of destiny... it really depends on personal preferences, that's kind of the point with the different destinies. I think it'll also depend a lot more on what your playstyle with your arty is.. a repeater focused one will naturally want different things from a casting focused one.
My own choice would be (and in fact is for my own arty) Shiradi, because I tend towards the repeater/rune arm combo rather than using many spells & love the random effects from double rainbow.. knocking a rednamed boss on their backside is great, as well as the occasional no-save instakill, or getting things like stun effects on undead etc :) Also fey form is a very nice one (though naturally it's be a great twist too since its only 2nd tier), and equipping a good devotion of healing mastery item then firing off a healing spring can provide a nice amount of extra healing support over time for you & your party.
My second choice would probably be shadowdancer, since it gives a nice dps boost (radiance repeater for maximum funtimes), some nice defensive boosts, dimension door is handy & saves on those expensive scrolls, and having evasion is never a bad thing.

[Ushurak]

Yep boulder toss is great, since as its considered a spell (well, SLA since it'll work in antimagic) it gets the damage boosted by force/kinetic/impulse type stuff - lower knockdown chance on low STR characters, but it's a great one to twist, I've had it crit for over 5k damage vs. a non-helpless enemy on my shiradi evoker archmage... have wild shots too & the combination is a pretty potent dps addition, with the bonus of no SP cost :)


Now you have me thinking down a whole other rabbit hole.

Are all of the melee ED damage clickies considered "SLAs" and can be boosted by enhancement specs or just BT?

[FuzzyDuck81]

Now you have me thinking down a whole other rabbit hole.

Are all of the melee ED damage clickies considered "SLAs" and can be boosted by enhancement specs or just BT?

Honestly, no idea.. the main clickies i know that spellpower definitely works on are things like rejuvenation coccoon, renewal, wild shots, boulder toss... and i'm pretty sure the sonic damage part from primal scream does too, so could be an interesting one to twist on a bard or caster too. The melee ones i'm fairly sure are treated more like specialised attacks, similar to smites, trips, stunning blow etc. so might not. Druid melee "spells" in animal form are different again (definitely treated as spells, theyre supressed by beholder antimagic which is annoying) so those might? will have to check once my druid is in epic levels.

The damage procs from shiradi abilities (inherent & from stances) seem to be handled a little differently... if it procs off a ranged attack, then the damage seems to be as-stated in the tooltip, but if it procs off a spell then it's subject to spellpower - though can't tell if its the spellpower of the spell you cast that boosts it (ie. cast a force spell & get fire damage, force spellpower will still boost it) or the spellpower that relates to the damage type itself - but i've frequently gotten up to 2k force damage from a single magic missile projectile while prism wasnt even active so it can't have been a random effect from double rainbow for that.
Oh yeah, each individual missile, damage proc or any other effect that is applied to an enemy can potentially produde a shiradi effect - hence another reason why i love my shiradi evoker, I can use unmeta'ed versions of lots of low level spells, AoEs, meteor swarm etc plus the SLAs (fully meta'ed naturally) then rely on the sheer number of little pings to proc the more powerful shiradi effects, which grants great SP-stamina when necessary.

[Anthios888]

To answer the OP,

All of them!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

While I am still at the bottom of the epic destiny totem pole climb..

... I believe that every destiny has something to offer every class.
as usually people just need to look past the DPS point of view.

Take a look at things that will help your character in some other way.

IMO no xp spent in a destiny is a waste.
Yes, there may be beter ones.
But just make the best of the one you are in during your climb.

Twist some good abilities along the way.


I see my Arty as a ranged DPSer. So Shiradi does seem the best IMO.
But I depend on Int.
I have spells too. I need my spell DCs high.
and anything I can do to increase th eeffectiveness of those spells is good too.

I am also a trapper.
While I do not see a reason to heavily invest in trap skills, I do want to invest in Ref save. (no evasion ya know...)

I want more HP and more defenseive ability on my Arty too.

Seems to me there is plenty to aid me from any destiny...
at least until I can unlock another one on my path to the one I want most.

[LeLoric]

Shadow dancer

6d6 sneak attack
Consume (int based implosion)
Shadow manipulation (charm then kill int based)
Executioners strike (dex based instakill)
5% physical dmg vulnerability and removal of sneak attack immunities.
15% fort bypass
25% incorp
ddoor

With consume and executioners now working shadowdancer is an instakill machine with some big benefits in boss fights too.

[kierg10]

I really like Shiradi, I finally managed to get to it on the weekend on my artie.

Pin and Otto's whistler help me make enemies helpless a lot for a huge damage boost, and if I get sense weakness (or w/e the fury helpless damage booster is) I can make the damage even more insane.

I do hate that I cannot take +int things in shiradi, but it is well worth the sacrifice.

Also: Prism/Rainbow/Double rainbow are insane.

Also inherent procs from shiradi destiny........so awesome. And damage boosts from inherents.........aw, I love it.

Fatesinger is actually very good for artie as well. I haven't actually spent that much time in DI or magister, but I will try those out after I get shiradi capped.

Shadowdancer is a very strong destiny, and I do think it would add huge damage. The only problem being, as an artificer you might grab aggro a lot........so all the extra sneak attack dice will go to waste a lot of the time.

Although what LeLoric said about SD is interesting.....I will have to max it out and try those abilities.

Hope this helps :D

[Ushurak]

Thanks for the input everyone.

This has given me some great ideas to be able to use.

Can't wait to get my Arti back up to level.

[Loriac]

Shadow dancer

6d6 sneak attack
Consume (int based implosion)
Shadow manipulation (charm then kill int based)
Executioners strike (dex based instakill)
5% physical dmg vulnerability and removal of sneak attack immunities.
15% fort bypass
25% incorp
ddoor

With consume and executioners now working shadowdancer is an instakill machine with some big benefits in boss fights too.

Does executioner's really work properly? I just now tested on my L20 arti (L4 shadowdancer atm) in the drow city, and out of a large number of shots fired, I got one executioner's strike. The tooltip was showing a DC of 42 (7+20[level]+8[dex bonus, I didn't have any buffs on]+7[shadow charges]) which should be a fairly reliable DC in that area considering I was running round solo (certainly my other spells with DCs of 40/41 were hitting almost all the time). If the best you can expect is one mob executed every 10-20 mins, then I think I'll pass on that particular 'instakill'.

I'll also be testing consume once I get the destiny points to slot it, I'm hopeful that does work based on some posts I've seen from a couple of people, but I'm learning that you can only trust the evidence of your own eyes sometimes with this game.

[Singular]

As Magister or Draconic I can take the full right side line of INT feats up either destiny and place points into other useful enhancements as well. This in turn boosts certain skill and feats such as DD, Search, Insightful Reflexes and my To-Hit from Insightful ?Strike? (the spell that lets me use my int for my TH bonuses with a repeater).


Try switching to Insightful damage and watch how much more deadly you are. Putting that +15 into damage instead of to hit does amazing things.

[ElbionTcob]

I am a HUGE personal fan of Shadow Dancer.

The SA damage is fantastic if you shoot enough. As well as you can get +6 Int out of it, which gives +3 Spell Dc's/Xbow Dmg with Insightful Dmg.

Get the Executioners/Shrouding Shot, with some Dex you can get some instant kills. As well as they give extra damage on the whole volley. As far as I can tell at least. As well as some neat clickies as gravy on top.

[fco-karatekid]

Starting sorta off-topic to set up an on topic bit...

I was heretical in another thread on another character because I stated I LIKED magister on my Tempest. I seriously believe there are good synergies that aren't intuitive. Only reason I took magister with that Tempest was the defensive buffs (fade into the weave, ~over 9000 to reflex saves and dodge, etc). then I went Draconic and fell in love all over again. Now that Tempest has twists from all over the place - lithe from shadowdancer, draconic hide (forget its name), etc.

To my Arty now... last life she took took Shiradi to begin with, so that's where this one started (hated that last character and TR'ed ASAP). I LIKE Shiradi, but I am beelining as fast as possible to shadowdancer and magister to take those off-class skills I really liked previously.

Everyone prior to this post who said "all of them" or similar is absolutely correct - dabble. The purists can stay Shiradi forever; but IMHO, mixing and matching from multiple ED's is the way to go. To me, it's more FUN, anyway.

And to your point on INT - yes, when I get to a spot where nothing really stands out, that's precisely what I plan to do as well.

[Loriac]

I am a HUGE personal fan of Shadow Dancer.

The SA damage is fantastic if you shoot enough. As well as you can get +6 Int out of it, which gives +3 Spell Dc's/Xbow Dmg with Insightful Dmg.

Get the Executioners/Shrouding Shot, with some Dex you can get some instant kills. As well as they give extra damage on the whole volley. As far as I can tell at least. As well as some neat clickies as gravy on top.

Executioner's shot still seems bugged to me. When I tested it (with a DC of 42 iirc) it killed 1 mob out of countless attempts (40+). The devs claim its DC is fixed now, and the tooltip for example shows the correct DC value, but something isn't right - its simply not successfully proc'ing on my arti.

Shadowdancer has great utility from the +Int, 6d6 SA and defensive benefits so the instakills are the icing, but it'd still be nice if they worked as advertised.

[Loriac]

To expand a little on how I see the EDs:

Shiradi is a good destiny, but in a way very self-contained. If you go Shiradi, you will suffer much lower DCs on tac det and prismatic, meaning you have to rely on the ED's cc (i.e. whistler and pin). I think a shiradi focused arti would be one that emphasises xbow use above everything else (this may change if SC is fixed to proc from runearms too) with ap spend and feats to reflect that. The arti doesn't gain as much utility from SC as a wiz or sorc however because artis have no access to magic missile type spells that spam a large number of low cost missile per cast. You could to an extent offset the weaknesses by twisting +5 DC from magister and draconic, but the cost to do so is lower saves and general defence.

SD is a great destiny for the arti. The only thing you really lose is additional sp from the ED. You gain superb defence (evasion, lithe, untouchable, shadow form), good damage (6d6 sneak attack), and a boost to spells (+5-6Int). If and when instakills are properly fixed, SD will become the perfect fit for an arti imo. You can twist in magister's +3DC, possibly draconic's +2DC (though this may be optional depending on how high your Int is), leaving a twist for additional reflex saves or fort saves, along with maybe something like boulder toss, wild shots, or energy burst for nuke damage. An ideal set up in fact would be tier 4 energy burst, tier 2 magister +3DCs, and tier 1 draconic dragonhide (+6 fort, no fail on a 1). With this set up, you have pretty much all bases covered: good spell potential, good ranged damge, solid defenses including evasion, (limited) instakill, and (limited) nukes.

DI is good for a nuker, and offers some decent defense. Its oriented at the arti who emphasises spellcasting over ranged damge, however in theory it may offer only similar or lower DCs vs shadowdancer (DI has more stuff that you'd want to take like energy burst, flyby attack, energy vortex etc leaving you short on ap to spend on +Int). You'd probably spec for acid, use corruption of nature, and go to town on anything not acid immune. Flyby attack makes up for not having evasion in some circumstances (e.g. leap through traps).

Fatesinger is an interesting ED, in that it looks far weaker on paper than it is in practice. You have some nice damage buffs (reign for example is superb) and other utility stuff but you do lose a lot by not having +Int options. On balance, its a transition ED but very few artis would choose it as their main ED once everything has been max'd out.

Magister is very defensively focused, and has some interesting ways of mitigating risks for particular situations (e.g. sigils that help with PRR or with elemental resistance). I think it will be a niche destiny for artificers however, as there isn't enough offensive capability in there for an endgame arti who uses ranged and runearm as much as possible. You can load up +6Int, and there isn't as much of a dilemma with spending ap on other abilities, so I guess it could work for a spellcasting arti who is reliant on his own spells for damage as you do get 250sp more than you would if you went into shadowdancer.

[UrbanPyro]

Deleted.