Half-Orc Barbarians still best choice?

[Jsbeer]

With all the changes U14 has brought, is a Half-Orc Barbarian still (one of) the best melee DPS choice?

Primary reason I am asking is that trying to fit in Overwhelming Critical is rather difficult on a Half-Orc Pure Barb
So would Human and/or a 2 Fighter splash be better?

All comments and feat lists welcome ;)

[Ivan_Milic]

Yes they are,and for overwhelming crit take out toughness and take great cleave,then you have 2 epic feats take weap focus and overwhelming,but it is bugged,it does nothing atm.

[Standal]

My barb has a 2 fighter splash. With the changes to AC and PRR, I find proficiency in heavy armor a huge plus.

I took great cleave, but I'm not sure it's necessary. It's better than cleave, but with a maxxed out momentum swing I don't know if you need it. I'm generally just spamming supreme cleave when it's off timer, then hitting momentum swing, then lay waste when it's clear.

With the knockdown abilities in both fury and LD, I kept toughness and dropped stunning blow. I have enough DPS and to hit that the helpless damage isn't necessary to kill the mobs before they get up.

[conanj77]

Like it has been said, yes, especially with over whelming critical...
My Barb I made is now up to level 12, he kicks butt, I made him because I wanted to try out the new changes on a non-monk melee. He is 18Barbarian/2fighter, losing out on only 1point of strength compared to pure barb, and because I am almost always running around in combat I am going to switch out THF/ITHF/GTHF so I can get Overwhelming critical and stunning blow, along with toughness and all the other barbarian feats :)

quick breakdown:
Epic Antique Greataxe base damage: 2(1d20)+6~Average= 26.5
Critical(while raged+overwhelming critical+Tier 3 FB)x7 multiplier, Average crit= 185.5

So without Strength mofiers to damage, Barb/Horc power attack boosts, power attack feat, supreme/greater cleave, the average critical is 185.5

Take 185.5, now add in my barbs strength at level 21(when he gets overwhelming critical) with rage+Frenzy+death frezny on: 20base+5levels+3tome+1fighter+7item+2insight=38
38+10(rage+power rage IV)+6(frenzy+Death frenzy)=54+2ship buffs=56, now I know I am forgeting stuff, but this is just what i can think of...

Strength=56, modifier=23

so, 26.5+23=49.5+16(power attack+barb/Horc III)=65.5

65.5x7=458.5... Now factor spamming Cleaves, Great cleaves, supreme cleaves, and stunning blows.
stunned enemies take x2 damage, now take that average crit, and say i used a supreme cleave, I managed to hit one of the stunned enemies, which means i hit for an additional 2(1d20) on all enemies around me, and i hit the stunned guy for 65.5+20.5(average of 2(1d20)) which is 86, 86x7=602x1.5=903

903 points of damage, thats pretty sweet in my book, thats no even including the other effects on the weapon, or the vicious/improved vicious from Frenzy/Death frenzy...

Add in the LD level 5 ability, you get an additional +50% to stunned/helpless, that makes it 1204, and then LD also adds 1[w] damage, so that would be in before the crit, which would make it the following...

86+20.5=106.5, x7=745.5 average supreme cleave crit, add in the 2.0damage modifier to helpless from stun+LD level 5, that becomes a nasty total of 1491, just imagine if you used Momentum swing and got a crit on a stunned/held mob, you would be hitting for a total of 2(1d20)+1[W]+3[W]=10(1d20)+23(str mod)+16(PA+enhancements)=182.5
182.5x7=1227.5x2modifier to stunned/held mob= 2555 points, Now that would be a devastating blow, putting all other melees to shame...

If I wanted to go insane(which i will) I would factor in the most possible damage(x4 to all damage from Challanges bonus boosty thingy)... so here it is! 2555points * 4=10220 That is impressive, if not higher then 50% of the best crits from a 1st life sorc or Wizzy... But thats like the max that I can think of, and I actually forgot the +.5[W] from LD...

Just some food for thought!!!

[Ivan_Milic]

Stunned enemies dont take x2 dmg,they take 50% more dmg.

[conanj77]

o.O didnt know that, guess i can edit that to fix it, so that the numbers use the +50% extra from LD, thanks...

CJ out!

[Nitesco]

Isn't Epic Antique 2[2d20] now? Maybe it's just being a Kensai Fighter or and ED thing that's upping the dice I see. Can anyone else confirm?

[sephiroth1084]

It's 2[1d20].

It went from 3d10 (avg.: 16.5, max of 30) to an avg. of 21, and a max of 40, but it's more swingy, and less likely to hit its average than the last version.

[Jsbeer]

Thanks for the replies. I am very tempted by a 2 FTR splash to get all the 2HF line and Overwhelming crtical as well as Toughness and Stunning Blow/Epic Toughness. Is this a decent idea or any suggestions for other feat choices?

[sephiroth1084]

I'd say you may be better served picking up Improved Sunder over either Toughness of GTHF. If you're going to be cycling Cleave, Great Cleave, Momentum Swing, and Lay Waste, you probably won't be getting all of your glancing blows anyway (not sure whether gbs trigger on any of those attacks), which makes the THF chain less worthwhile. Personally, I'm loath to give up the whole chain, as sometimes I do feel a bit lazy and want to auto-attack, but I'm not sure all 3 feats are necessary.

Remember that you need both Great Cleave and Weapon Focus to get Overwhelming Critical.

[goodspeed]

For dps ya I'd say ya can't go wrong with a horc. Though for a stat lineup I don't think I'd go 20 str. I'd take those 6 points and toss em into dex. Theirs some nice feats that require a base of 13 or 14. Like that change to precision.

No penalty now for it, but it adds to your to hit, which offsets the penalty of stacking all those power attacks for more dmg at the cost of to hit. Though while buffed and raged to hit shouldn't really be an issue, still gives an easier time of it. Plus i'm not sure if anything changed with to hit with the new update.

But heres the thing. Not sure if a horc will be the best or rivaling best. (You can do ALOT of dmg with human versatility and say rog or fighter haste boost all the while raged up and pounding away with a barbarian)

When they get around to changing up the enhancements as well as add in the racial prestige's, it's all up in this air which could be the best course for dmg. Horcs are supposedly to gain the ravager line, but then again no clue what it does. Where as humans (and I think helves to) are supposed to be able to choose for a lil bit more investment.

So if it came down to it, i'd say a human would be the safest bet.

As for a lineup, i'd prolly go for 2 rogue or 2 fighter depending on what you were looking for.

[sephiroth1084]

You can't have Precision active at the same time as Power Attack.

Over the long run, you will be doing more DPS as a half-orc with Damage Boost IV than a human with DB IV and Haste Boost I. Horc is better DPS, while human is more healable and probably ends up with more HP, making them the better choice for a tank.

[zukt]

I'd say you may be better served picking up Improved Sunder over either Toughness of GTHF. If you're going to be cycling Cleave, Great Cleave, Momentum Swing, and Lay Waste, you probably won't be getting all of your glancing blows anyway (not sure whether gbs trigger on any of those attacks), which makes the THF chain less worthwhile. Personally, I'm loath to give up the whole chain, as sometimes I do feel a bit lazy and want to auto-attack, but I'm not sure all 3 feats are necessary.
They are. Glancing blows proc on all thf weapon cleaves (supreme cleave, great cleave) except quarterstaffs cleaves (bugged for over a year, still no response), so giving up last thf feat is giving up a large amount of dps... except on quarterstaffs which is an endless amount of frustration to my staff user.

[sephiroth1084]

They are. Glancing blows proc on all thf weapon cleaves (supreme cleave, great cleave) except quarterstaffs cleaves (bugged for over a year, still no response), so giving up last thf feat is giving up a large amount of dps... except on quarterstaffs which is an endless amount of frustration to my staff user.
Giving up GTHF is dropping 10% of your glancing blow damage and the glance on your 4th(?) swing. If you aren't making that swing, you aren't losing all that much, even with glances on all your Cleaves.

[zukt]

Giving up GTHF is dropping 10% of your glancing blow damage and the glance on your 4th(?) swing. If you aren't making that swing, you aren't losing all that much, even with glances on all your Cleaves.

You could say giving up power attack isn't losing all that much also. It's only 10 damage after all. It's about 20 to 30% more damage in autoattack, and between 5-10% more twitching cleave. Even more noticeable in situations with lots of splash damage.

That's pretty big when your base damage is 80 or so.

[sephiroth1084]

You could say giving up power attack isn't losing all that much also. It's only 10 damage after all. It's about 20 to 30% more damage in autoattack, and between 5-10% more twitching cleave. Even more noticeable in situations with lots of splash damage.

That's pretty big when your base damage is 80 or so.
Giving up PA on a half-orc barbarian is losing 22 damage per swing, on every swing, and a fraction of that on glancing blows. It's a MUCH bigger percentage of your damage, A, and B, it's a moot point, since it is a prerequisite for Cleave.

Let's say your base damage is 80.
Glances w/GTHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.5 = 40 on glances
Glances w/ITHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.4 = 32 on glances, or -8 damage on glancing blows

80+40=120
80+32=112
A loss of 7% of your DPS before accounting for crits and weapon procs, if you're getting glancing blows on every swing (ie, Swing, Swing, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Swing, Swing). I still haven't seen any info on whether Momentum Swing and Lay Waste proc glances at all, or if they do so on every attack.

If you are running full attack chains, then GTHF is a big loss in DPS, as you lose that 10% and the additional glance in the chain, but if you're looking for a feat to give up, that isn't too big a loss. Personally, I think I'd be inclined to drop Toughness first, but only if I give up any notion of being a raid tank on occasion.

Stunning Blow is much too valuable.

Improved Sunder is less so, but very worthwhile in some situations, and you can't rely on others carrying it. In the situations for which it's useful, it accounts for much more than a 5% increase in DPS, because it's improving the DPS of not just you, but every other melee in your group attacking that target (plus, it synergizes well with Stunning Blow on very high Fort targets).

On a pure barb, you only have 9 feats to pick up all of PA, Cleave, GC, WF, OC, SB, IS, ICrit, THF, ITHF, GTHF and Toughness (and Epic Toughness if that's your thing)--that's 12 (13) feats for 9 slots. What do you drop? On a /2 fighter, you have 2 more feats to work with, but are still looking at 11 slots for 12 or 13 feats.

[Jsbeer]

So for a Half-Orc 18 Barbarian/ 2 Fighter (with fighter levels at 19 and 20) would the following feat order be good:


1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
19 - Stunning Blow
20 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Improved Sunder or Toughness


Alternatively, I could go Human 20 Barbarian and drop Improved Sunder while gaining the capstone.
Decisions, decisions.......

[zukt]

Giving up PA on a half-orc barbarian is losing 22 damage per swing, on every swing, and a fraction of that on glancing blows. It's a MUCH bigger percentage of your damage, A, and B, it's a moot point, since it is a prerequisite for Cleave.

Let's say your base damage is 80.
Glances w/GTHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.5 = 40 on glances
Glances w/ITHF (not a capstone barb):
80*0.4 = 32 on glances, or -8 damage on glancing blows

80+40=120
80+32=112
A loss of 7% of your DPS before accounting for crits and weapon procs, if you're getting glancing blows on every swing (ie, Swing, Swing, Cleave, Great Cleave, Supreme Cleave, Swing, Swing). I still haven't seen any info on whether Momentum Swing and Lay Waste proc glances at all, or if they do so on every attack.

And all this is on single targets. Every situation where you're facing multiple targets, the loss is bigger.


If you are running full attack chains, then GTHF is a big loss in DPS, as you lose that 10% and the additional glance in the chain, but if you're looking for a feat to give up, that isn't too big a loss. Personally, I think I'd be inclined to drop Toughness first, but only if I give up any notion of being a raid tank on occasion.

Stunning Blow is much too valuable.
I can't see any argument for giving up the last and most powerful feat in the thf feat chain on a barbarian. If you want a tactics toon that gives up damage for tactics, barbarian isn't it. I can see giving up some HP for tactics, but not damage when that's what the class is about.


Improved Sunder is less so, but very worthwhile in some situations, and you can't rely on others carrying it. In the situations for which it's useful, it accounts for much more than a 5% increase in DPS, because it's improving the DPS of not just you, but every other melee in your group attacking that target (plus, it synergizes well with Stunning Blow on very high Fort targets).

And that's a great argument for a tactics fighter having it, not a barbarian.


On a pure barb, you only have 9 feats to pick up all of PA, Cleave, GC, WF, OC, SB, IS, ICrit, THF, ITHF, GTHF and Toughness (and Epic Toughness if that's your thing)--that's 12 (13) feats for 9 slots. What do you drop? On a /2 fighter, you have 2 more feats to work with, but are still looking at 11 slots for 12 or 13 feats.

GC,WF,SB,IS?

Really anything but GTHF and frenzied berserker prereqs and improved crit.

I don't know why you would take weapon focus unless they changed how it works.

[WruntJunior]

I don't know why you would take weapon focus unless they changed how it works.

Required for Overwhelming Critical.

[emptysands]

With all the changes U14 has brought, is a Half-Orc Barbarian still (one of) the best melee DPS choice?

Primary reason I am asking is that trying to fit in Overwhelming Critical is rather difficult on a Half-Orc Pure Barb
So would Human and/or a 2 Fighter splash be better?

All comments and feat lists welcome ;)

The ability to get Haste Boost IV makes a big potential difference to Barbarian dps.

I've got a simple spreadsheet that looks at a few (auto-attack) THF options: http://goo.gl/nyBEs.

The main issue with HO 20 Barb is feats: drop Toughness and Stunning Blow for OC: Slashing. As Standal mentioned there are ED knockdowns, so the lack of stunning for CC is maybe not an issue.

Whatever the case, there is about 11% difference between Human and Half-Orc per swing and 5% difference between 18Barb/2Fighter and 20 Barb.

Previously a "Haste Boost IV" Fighter would beat a "Haste" Barb. Maybe a "Half-Elf Haste Boost IV" and "Human Versatility IV" Fighter would still be situational top.

[countfitz]

Well, pure DPS, cookie cutter, yes, but with the extra feats needed to get there, Human offers MORE (not necessarily DPS) that IMO makes it "better." But I play clerics, Half orc clerics in fact, so I'm biased towards easier to heal not full ****** dps barbarians. Ironic, since I play that kind of cleric...

Anyway, just my opinion. I doubt you'd notice the difference endgame in DPS though, from Horc to Human, but you WOULD notice the difference in healing amp and haste boost. Of course, my highest barb was 12ish... and a dwarf... about a year ago...

So really, I just want you to be a human for the heal amp :)

Help the clerics out.

[zukt]

Required for Overwhelming Critical.

Ah, gotcha. Then epic barbs are just like non epic barbs. Only one set of feats with only one feat to swap: toughness or stunning blow.

[Jsbeer]

Ah, gotcha. Then epic barbs are just like non epic barbs. Only one set of feats with only one feat to swap: toughness or stunning blow.

Is this true? Because I thought that the full-****** DPS for a HO Barb was:

Feats:
1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
24 - Overwhelming Critical

which doesn't leave any choice at all and is lacking both Toughness and Stunning blow. By comparison the 18 Brb 2 Ftr variant is:


Feats:
1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
19 - Stunning Blow
20 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Improved Sunder or Toughness

which fits in 2 out of 3 of Toughness, Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder.

[zukt]

Er... forgot about great cleave prereq, so yeah, you're right. full dps barb has no choice at all. 18/2 barb imho has no choice in that I feel stunning blow is vastly superior to improved sunder... seems to me weapon focus shouldn't be a prereq, its awfully fighterish, something you take for weapon specialization when you have a zillion feats to spend.

I guess that's okay in the long run, since epic destiny barbs will have a decent amount of hp without the extra 50 or so from toughness.

[Isolani]

Is this true? Because I thought that the full-****** DPS for a HO Barb was:

Feats:
1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
24 - Overwhelming Critical

which doesn't leave any choice at all and is lacking both Toughness and Stunning blow. By comparison the 18 Brb 2 Ftr variant is:


Feats:
1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
19 - Stunning Blow
20 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Improved Sunder or Toughness

which fits in 2 out of 3 of Toughness, Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder.

Haven't played a 2H fighting character in a while, but looks like they got some nice ED buffs, so will be playing one soon to try them out. Will probably go human 18 barb/2 fgt, seems the only way to get all the feats you would want to get. More heal amp and heavy armor is nice also. You lose some dps compared to half orc, but you're harder to kill and don't have to leave out one of toughness/stunning blow/improved sunder. Hopefully overwhelming critical will actually work by the time I get a TR leveled back up again =)

[djl]

Keep in mind that by taking two levels of fighter, you're giving up 3 points of strength (two from capstone and two from Mighty Rage), 2 points of con (from Mighty Rage), and 10% glancing blow damage. Unless you plan to use Legendary Dreadnought which utilizes a cleave/special chain that does not proc glancing blows, you are likely not gaining a net increase in damage by taking OC.

[Jsbeer]

Keep in mind that by taking two levels of fighter, you're giving up 3 points of strength (two from capstone and two from Mighty Rage), 2 points of con (from Mighty Rage), and 10% glancing blow damage. Unless you plan to use Legendary Dreadnought which utilizes a cleave/special chain that does not proc glancing blows, you are likely not gaining a net increase in damage by taking OC.

Good point.

The reason why I was thinking of a 2 FTR splash though is for Improved Sunder and Stunning Blow, as well as begin able to use Heavy Armour. I guess it all comes down to whether the improved tactical versatility and better AC/PRR is worth the loss of ~5% DPS and ~30 HP.

[emptysands]

Good point.

The reason why I was thinking of a 2 FTR splash though is for Improved Sunder and Stunning Blow, as well as begin able to use Heavy Armour. I guess it all comes down to whether the improved tactical versatility and better AC/PRR is worth the loss of ~5% DPS and ~30 HP.

HP not so important, given the extra from epic levels. Stunning blow is going to up your dps, but might make gearing choices more difficult.

Really depends on your style of play.

[goodspeed]

You can't have Precision active at the same time as Power Attack.

Over the long run, you will be doing more DPS as a half-orc with Damage Boost IV than a human with DB IV and Haste Boost I. Horc is better DPS, while human is more healable and probably ends up with more HP, making them the better choice for a tank.

aw really? Well that blows I thought you could have em both going. Gonna have to slot something else in the builder plan then.


And Improved sunder wise you could take it, but bard is pretty much one of those classes that the only thing expected of you, is a bunch of hp, good heal amp to effectively use that hp, and to the hilt dmg. With the changes armor isn't out the question for a lil bit of defense even around 25%

Now the other guys with the feats, and the versatility and all that, they have the IS, and all that other stuff that drops fort and AC. And as long as the healers ok, all the dmg wooshing out of your body should be replenished. Now with the one epic destiny their is a way to provide self healing as a barb over time, but you also would be stuck to that destiny for more self reliance then something that would provide more wallup.

I think it was the fury line thing. Read about it up in general in some thread some dude was whining about balance again.

[Blank_Zero]

Unless you're TWF, go HOrc for Barb. Too much synergy b/t Barbs/THF/HOrc to not do it. If TWF, I feel it's a tossup b/t HOrc and Human/HElf. And if TWF, going 18/2 is best, as you don't really need to worry about the Glancing Blows provided by the capstone.

[sephiroth1084]

And all this is on single targets. Every situation where you're facing multiple targets, the loss is bigger.
While true (depending on point of view), you're bringing a fair amount of AoE DPS to the picture anyway.


I can't see any argument for giving up the last and most powerful feat in the thf feat chain on a barbarian. If you want a tactics toon that gives up damage for tactics, barbarian isn't it. I can see giving up some HP for tactics, but not damage when that's what the class is about.
That's a narrow way of looking at it, and is highly subjective. I for one found playing a barbarian without some tactics abilities to be rather dull, but have enjoyed playing a barbarian more than playing a fighter.

GTHF isn't stellar if you aren't getting that 3rd glancing blow in, and Stunning Blow does much more for you on trash than GTHF does, while Improved Sunder does much more for the party (raid) than GTHF does. Again, it depends on what your focus and goals are.

And yeah, the prerequisites for Overwhelming Critical suck, and the enhancement revamp, which a dev alluded may eliminate Cleave as a necessary prerequisite for Frenzied Berserker (presumably, you could get FB without Cleave, but would need the feat in order to pick up the Supreme Cleave portion of the PrE) won't help, because it won't address OC. Really, most of the combat oriented epic feats have excessive prerequisites.


Keep in mind that by taking two levels of fighter, you're giving up 3 points of strength (two from capstone and two from Mighty Rage), 2 points of con (from Mighty Rage), and 10% glancing blow damage. Unless you plan to use Legendary Dreadnought which utilizes a cleave/special chain that does not proc glancing blows, you are likely not gaining a net increase in damage by taking OC.
Well, the Con issue is minor if the extra feats from fighter are allowing you to pick up Toughness, since that, with even minimal enhancements, is good for ~60 HP, vs. the 25 from 2 Con.

As for the Legendary Dreadnought comment...what better twists are there for a barbarian than Momentum Swing and Lay Waste, if you aren't in LD already? You've already got Cleave and Supreme Cleave, and are likely to also have Great Cleave as well.


And Improved sunder wise you could take it, but bard is pretty much one of those classes that the only thing expected of you, is a bunch of hp, good heal amp to effectively use that hp, and to the hilt dmg. With the changes armor isn't out the question for a lil bit of defense even around 25%

Now the other guys with the feats, and the versatility and all that, they have the IS, and all that other stuff that drops fort and AC. You can't rely on someone else having Improved Sunder--fighters probably will, but no one else is very likely to be carrying it. Some monks do, but fewer now that a bunch of other feats, such as Precision, have been buffed, and with your massive Str, you're often more likely to actually get IS to land. I know that, on my monk who has IS, on some bosses I can only occasionally get IS to land, even after stacking up a full -15 Fortitude penalty, whereas on my barbarian, without a Shatter item, I can usually get it up and keep it up within the first 1-3 attempts.

And as long as the healers ok, all the dmg wooshing out of your body should be replenished. Now with the one epic destiny their is a way to provide self healing as a barb over time, but you also would be stuck to that destiny for more self reliance then something that would provide more wallup.

I think it was the fury line thing. Read about it up in general in some thread some dude was whining about balance again.
Fast Healing isn't all that impressive, and certainly doesn't cover your incoming damage on its own by any stretch.


Ultimately, it comes down to what you prioritize; if it's DPS over everything else, then you can go pure barb and drop Toughness, Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder, and hope other people are bringing those tools to the table. If you want to be able to carry a party better, and expand into some other roles (melee CC, tanking), you need to look at /2 fighter and/or skipping GTHF.

Lobby Turbine to drop the worthless Weapon Focus prerequisite on OC so the feat is at least somewhat accessible to non-fighters.

[emptysands]

Ultimately, it comes down to what you prioritize; if it's DPS over everything else, then you can go pure barb and drop Toughness, Stunning Blow and Improved Sunder, and hope other people are bringing those tools to the table. If you want to be able to carry a party better, and expand into some other roles (melee CC, tanking), you need to look at /2 fighter and/or skipping GTHF.

Lobby Turbine to drop the worthless Weapon Focus prerequisite on OC so the feat is at least somewhat accessible to non-fighters.

I don't think I can agree. I think the requirements for OC are right. Plus thematically I can see why WF:Type is required for OC:Type. OC adds a huge amount to your dps - certainly more than feats like WS. It should also be a choice for non-fighters to pick options to get more dps. Otherwise why be a fighter?

Especially now Haste Boost IV is available to any build, they have basically lost once function that pushed their dps more than others. If you want to get tactics on a Barb, then your should consider splashing 2 Fighter.

I do think that TWF builds should have another option to get OC. Both thematically and to promote more interesting builds. Maybe Mobility+OTWF or Spring Attack (only) to replace Cleave+Greater Cleave. Ideally balanced to require the same commitment to increased dps that a non-fighter twf would require, and thematically to show that this build has made a commitment to peak performance with their weapon types and fighting style.

EDIT: I meant to say as well, that dropping the Power Attack (Cleave) requirement would help Precision builds.

[sephiroth1084]

With a few classes getting zero bonus feats in the heroic tier, and no one getting bonus feats in the epic (a break from the PnP rulebook, which has consequences Turbine didn't bother adjusting for), a feat that has 4 others as prerequisites ends up being excessively difficult to pick up on most non-fighters, and cookie-cutters too many other characters. Feats in the Epic Handbook could stand to have more stringent requirements because everyone was getting bonus feats in epic levels, that you could use to pick up those requirements, or (in the case of high stat requirements), use to pick up Great <insert stat> to meet those requirements. We can't do that either, so we have some outrageously costed feats.

Add to that the fact that the list of epic feats available is about half as long as it should be, and really hardly offers alternatives at all for many characters, let alone satisfactory ones.

If you don't want to squeeze in OC on a barbarian, you're left with picking up +1 Str or Con, +1 skills, or Epic Toughness IF you didn't take Beserker's Fury instead, and started with a 17+ Con and read a big tome. What other feat poses that kind of problem, with such a dramatic gulf between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'? What's the DPS difference between someone with OC, and someone with +2 Str? I'm sure it's fairly significant.

[emptysands]

With a few classes getting zero bonus feats in the heroic tier, and no one getting bonus feats in the epic (a break from the PnP rulebook, which has consequences Turbine didn't bother adjusting for), a feat that has 4 others as prerequisites ends up being excessively difficult to pick up on most non-fighters, and cookie-cutters too many other characters. Feats in the Epic Handbook could stand to have more stringent requirements because everyone was getting bonus feats in epic levels, that you could use to pick up those requirements, or (in the case of high stat requirements), use to pick up Great <insert stat> to meet those requirements. We can't do that either, so we have some outrageously costed feats.

Add to that the fact that the list of epic feats available is about half as long as it should be, and really hardly offers alternatives at all for many characters, let alone satisfactory ones.

If you don't want to squeeze in OC on a barbarian, you're left with picking up +1 Str or Con, +1 skills, or Epic Toughness IF you didn't take Beserker's Fury instead, and started with a 17+ Con and read a big tome. What other feat poses that kind of problem, with such a dramatic gulf between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'? What's the DPS difference between someone with OC, and someone with +2 Str? I'm sure it's fairly significant.

Per Swing? 311.46 vs 298.21. That's from a quick change to CM2 in http://goo.gl/nyBEs for HO 20 Barb with OC+GTHF.

I think it is important to encourage balance that builds be force to make a choice.

A HO 20 Barb can got full dps with OC+GTHF. Or they can go HP+CC with Toughness+Epic Toughness+Stunning Blow or Toughness+Stunning Blow+Improved Sunder.

If OC was easier to get, then every Barb will have it. Then there is no point being a fighter for dps.

[gummolo]

the 2 fighter splash grants you also the nice 5 haste boosts per rest, (8 if you rake LD).

[emptysands]

the 2 fighter splash grants you also the nice 5 haste boosts per rest, (8 if you rake LD).

More likely you will take Haste Boost IV from LD, rather than Haste Boost I from Fighter 2.

[Jsbeer]

From reading this and other threads it appears that

Half- Orc > Human ~10% DPS
Pure > 2 FTR Splash ~5% DPS
Overwhelming Critical ~3% DPS


Consequently, I was thinking of the following feat list for a Half-Orc Pure Barbarian:

1 - THF
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
12 - iTHF
15 - gTHF
18 - Toughness
21 - Improved Sunder
24 - Stunning Blow

where I could always replace either of Improved Sunder or Stunning Blow to Epic Toughness if necessary. Alternatively I could replace Toughness with Great Cleave folr more AOE damage.

I am losing about 3% DPS and Great Cleave compared to a barbarian that goes:

1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
24 - Overwhelming Critical

but am significantly more versatile and have more HP. Any thoughts on this?

[emptysands]

From reading this and other threads it appears that

Half- Orc > Human ~10% DPS
Pure > 2 FTR Splash ~5% DPS
Overwhelming Critical ~3% DPS


Consequently, I was thinking of the following feat list for a Half-Orc Pure Barbarian:

1 - THF
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons
12 - iTHF
15 - gTHF
18 - Toughness
21 - Improved Sunder
24 - Stunning Blow

where I could always replace either of Improved Sunder or Stunning Blow to Epic Toughness if necessary. Alternatively I could replace Toughness with Great Cleave folr more AOE damage.

I am losing about 3% DPS and Great Cleave compared to a barbarian that goes:

1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved Critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Weapon Focus: Slashing
24 - Overwhelming Critical

but am significantly more versatile and have more HP. Any thoughts on this?

I think it is a solid build, and feats are easy to change via Fred if decide you prefer another style later.

Here are some numbers:


Auto-attack - Hasted dps
Half-Orc 20 Barb - 542.02 dps
Half-Orc 20 Barb (no OC) - 520.13 dps
Half-Orc 18 Barb/2Fighter -514.93 dps
Human 20 Barb - 481.62 dps
Human 18 Barb/2Fighter - 463.92 dps
Human 20 Barb (no OC) - 462.21 dps


Check out: http://goo.gl/WEYN1

Note though that 18 Barb/2Fighter has lower glancing, but higher base than the 20 Barb (no OC). So auto-cleave attacks and LD based build will likely seem more damage. Base damage for HO per swing is Barb 20 - 271.83, Barb 18/Fighter 2 - 265.98, Barb 20 (no OC) - 258.58.

This is using the follow builds:

Yours above.

Or:
1 Two Handed Fighting
3 Power Attack
6 Cleave
9 Improved critical: Slashing
12 Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 Great Cleave (Overwhelming Critical prereq)
21 WF (Overwhelming Critical prereq)
24 OC: Slashing

Or:
1 Two Handed Fighting
3 Power Attack
6 Cleave
9 Improved critical: Slashing
12 Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 Great Cleave (Overwhelming Critical prereq)
21 WF (Overwhelming Critical prereq)
24 OC: Slashing
f1 Toughness
f2 Stunning Blow

[Jsbeer]

I think it is a solid build, and feats are easy to change via Fred if decide you prefer another style later.

Here are some numbers:


Auto-attack - Hasted dps
Half-Orc 20 Barb - 542.02 dps
Half-Orc 20 Barb (no OC) - 520.13 dps
Half-Orc 18 Barb/2Fighter -514.93 dps
Human 20 Barb - 481.62 dps
Human 18 Barb/2Fighter - 463.92 dps
Human 20 Barb (no OC) - 462.21 dps


Thanks Emptysands for taking the time to give actual figures for these builds. Looks like I will go with the Half-Orc 20 Barb with no OC build as it is slightly less DPS but far more flexible.

[emptysands]

Thanks Emptysands for taking the time to give actual figures for these builds. Looks like I will go with the Half-Orc 20 Barb with no OC build as it is slightly less DPS but far more flexible.

Just realised I've forgetten to account for that fact that vicious has in the past proc-ed on all glancing blows. This may have changed - Kotc was definitely changed.

Doesn't actually effect the order of the results. And OC has no effect on glancing blows anyway.

[Zorth]

I wear gloves of silence when I clap and When I laugh I stuff cotten in your ears faster than a nano second so you dont hear me.

[emptysands]

Thanks Emptysands for taking the time to give actual figures for these builds. Looks like I will go with the Half-Orc 20 Barb with no OC build as it is slightly less DPS but far more flexible.

Another point that should be considered is that a Human (or HE) Barb can use LD Haste Boost IV and Human Versatility: Damage IV +25%. Stacked together they are a massive buff to short term dps.

Plus in LD mode with no cooldown, it probably will be a constant haste and damage boost = 20 x how many Actions.

Using Damage Boost IV on top of Haste Boost will push the Human from 12% below to 11% over the HO 20 Barb. Plus you get Toughness or Stunning Blow - likely SB so you dont actually lose much dps on trash with the +50% helpless boost.

Having Haste Boost IV as tier 3 LD twist is also something I'm trying to figure out for some other builds I'm working on.

[sephiroth1084]

Another point that should be considered is that a Human (or HE) Barb can use LD Haste Boost IV and Human Versatility: Damage IV +25%. Stacked together they are a massive buff to short term dps.

Plus in LD mode with no cooldown, it probably will be a constant haste and damage boost = 20 x how many Actions.

Using Damage Boost IV on top of Haste Boost will push the Human from 12% below to 11% over the HO 20 Barb. Plus you get Toughness or Stunning Blow - likely SB so you dont actually lose much dps on trash with the +50% helpless boost.

Having Haste Boost IV as tier 3 LD twist is also something I'm trying to figure out for some other builds I'm working on.

Is that including the extra action boosts from Horc? How many boosts are you looking at for each build?

[ulticleo]

Hi All,
I am getting ready to TR my fighter, and I really want to do barbarian (I've always been a fan of fighters, but it's time to give barbs their chance). I want to fit in OC, but have a hard time of giving up toughness and SB. Just how much dps am I losing by dropping the THF chain (it's hard for me to give those up too...)?

If I am spamming AOEs and moving constantly against trash (which I do), and twitch against bosses (decent at it, but can get better), will I even notice the difference?

I am thinking of going:
1 toughness
3 power attack
6 cleave
9 SB
12 ic:slash
15 IS
18 g.cleave

21 wf:slash
24 OC:slash

[Purkilius]

Another point that should be considered is that a Human (or HE) Barb can use LD Haste Boost IV and Human Versatility: Damage IV +25%. Stacked together they are a massive buff to short term dps.

Plus in LD mode with no cooldown, it probably will be a constant haste and damage boost = 20 x how many Actions.

Using Damage Boost IV on top of Haste Boost will push the Human from 12% below to 11% over the HO 20 Barb. Plus you get Toughness or Stunning Blow - likely SB so you dont actually lose much dps on trash with the +50% helpless boost.

Having Haste Boost IV as tier 3 LD twist is also something I'm trying to figure out for some other builds I'm working on.

Yes been thinking how a TWF Paladin with a hate boost twist might work but waiting for the enhancements pass!

[Arakasia]

OK so how does a dwarven pure barb fit into the numbers here?

Emptysands, as you seem to be the one with the numbers running!!!

im curious more than anything, my dwarf barb does fairly well

and curious about OC, you or someone else said that OC is broken atm, any details, tbh i hadnt noticed.

[sephiroth1084]

and curious about OC, you or someone else said that OC is broken atm, any details, tbh i hadnt noticed.Exactly the point!

[jejeba86]

Check out:


The three weapon-type specific Overwhelming Critical feats have been merged into a single feat that affects all weapons used by the character. Weapon Focus is no longer required:

Now I can be a happy half-orc pure barbarian with bigger criticals while still stunning!

[emptysands]

Is that including the extra action boosts from Horc? How many boosts are you looking at for each build?

HO can't stack haste (class) and damage (racial) boost. I'm assuming that the LD haste boost is a class boost. I haven't tested it though.

You can get 3 Action Boosts from the LD tree. So 5+3=8 action boosts +items, maybe 10 max. Say 180secs worth per rest.

[Blank_Zero]

Check out:



Now I can be a happy half-orc pure barbarian with bigger criticals while still stunning!

If this is true, I might be farming for Balizarde after all >.>


Edit to add: your quote doesn't go anywhere...

[emptysands]

If this is true, I might be farming for Balizarde after all >.>


Edit to add: your quote doesn't go anywhere...

Go check the U15 release notes on Lam: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=376774.

Unfortunately it seems the enhancement update has been pushed back to U16. :/

[Wraith_Sarevok]

Due to some smart changes (i.e. dropping the stupid Weapon Focus requirement and making OC affect ALL weapons including thrown), you can now go the full ****** horc barbarian DPS build with over 1000+ HP from the Toughness/PL:Barb feat.

Or you could pick that lame Stunning Blow ability with horrible animation reach and no effect on bosses. Whatever. Neither choice is wrong.

I might even consider taking Power Critical: Slashing for the +2 seeker bonus.

[shareplz]

monks are the best melee DPS

[jejeba86]

Also, just tested on live, and momentum swing DOES PROC glancing blows too!

[djl]

Due to some smart changes (i.e. dropping the stupid Weapon Focus requirement and making OC affect ALL weapons including thrown), you can now go the full ****** horc barbarian DPS build with over 1000+ HP from the Toughness/PL:Barb feat.

Or you could pick that lame Stunning Blow ability with horrible animation reach and no effect on bosses. Whatever. Neither choice is wrong.

I might even consider taking Power Critical: Slashing for the +2 seeker bonus.

Prior to this update, I would have agreed with you about SB. But, the vastly increased availability of +10 items makes it easy to get a 55+ DC stunning blow which is huge in quests with tough casters. Everyone says "but trash CC is what casters are for," but in the higher difficulties many caster-type mobs will throw a mass death ward as soon as they engage you and the drow enemies in the new content have a very high SR as well. Trash control as a whole became much more important with the update, and especially in epic elites.

[Nodoze]

Prior to this update, I would have agreed with you about SB. But, the vastly increased availability of +10 items makes it easy to get a 55+ DC stunning blow which is huge in quests with tough casters. Everyone says "but trash CC is what casters are for," but in the higher difficulties many caster-type mobs will throw a mass death ward as soon as they engage you and the drow enemies in the new content have a very high SR as well. Trash control as a whole became much more important with the update, and especially in epic elites.We are trying to quickly create a vet7 Barb to level to 8 then stone to 16 before the deadline for a buddy from our old pnp days. I have never played a barbarian before (I mainly divines). What would be the 32 point stats and feats breakdown for both of the above Pure barb HO options?

[Jsbeer]

We are trying to quickly create a vet7 Barb to level to 8 then stone to 16 before the deadline for a buddy from our old pnp days. I have never played a barbarian before (I mainly divines). What would be the 32 point stats and feats breakdown for both of the above Pure barb HO options?

Based on Shade's template:


Str 20 + 5 Levels
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 6

Max STR, High CON, rest in DEX for +2 reflex save.

Skills: Balance, Spot and remainder in Jump. 2 in Tumble at start.


1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Stunning Blow or Toughness

[Nodoze]

Based on Shade's template:


Str 20 + 5 Levels
Dex 12
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 6

Max STR, High CON, rest in DEX for +2 reflex save.

Skills: Balance, Spot and remainder in Jump. 2 in Tumble at start.


1 - Two Handed Fighting
3 - Power Attack
6 - Cleave
9 - Improved critical: Slashing
12 - Improved Two Handed Fighting
15 - Greater Two Handed Fighting
18 - Great Cleave
21 - Overwhelming Critical
24 - Stunning Blow or ToughnessTHANKS. I had just found and was reading http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=298161 . Lots of great info from Shade but being short on time you summarized it well and confirmed that I was looking at the right build. THANKS again !

[Azaghan]

So, what is considered the most efficient way to build a pure H-Orc Barbarian with all these changes?

Such a character has 7 heroic feat slots and 2 epic. He is going Legendary Dreadnought using greataxes. Let's consider the following feats are 'non-negotiable' : Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Stunning Blow, Improved Critical:Slashing and Overwhelming Critical. That leaves us with 2 heroic feat slots and one epic feat slot. Which of the following combos would make more sense?

[1] THF, ITHF, GTHF

[2] THF, ITHF, Toughness (or Barbarian Active Past Life)

[3] THF, Toughness, Epic Toughness (I don't think that dropping two THF feats is a good idea though)

Tied to the question above is the following one: What is the best way to attack utilizing all the Dreadnought moves? 2 swings and then Sup. Cleave? or 3 swings then Sup. Cleave? Then chain the remaining cleave moves after the Supreme Cleave? Has anyone crunched these numbers?

EDIT: Yes I saw the post above mine and have read Shade's guides. I am just not sure about the impact of dropping one ore more THF feats now that cleaves are a crucial part of the attack chain, and also what is the "optimal" way to chain together all the cleave moves together with the standard attacks.

[akiraproject24]

I dropped the Past life barb feat (basically my toughness) and still have around 1100ish hp when raged. 900 hp standing not raged with ship buffs. I refuse to drop the THF line as I feel these are significant DPS increases whether you are spamming cleaves/momentum or not. My main destiny is Fury of the wild with momentum swing, imp PA and brace for impact twisted in. I absolutely love it. I dont feel light in the Hp section at all and dont feel that toughness or epic toughness are needed at all unless I just want to be a fat bag of hp sacrificing DPS and bragging rights to how much HP I have...1100ish (fluctuates based on primal scream and madstone) If you want to be full ****** DPS sustainably...full barbarian overwhelming crit imo is the way to go and keeping the full THF line. Side note I also have a 18/2 barb fighter that is TWF and for him I will go a different route. But if you THF wielding a sos/eaga or Drow GA I feel the full THF line is not something you just trick yourself into thinking you can do without. If you drop it you will lose DPS plain and simple. Glancing blows ranging between 65-90 and as high as 120 Ive seen when glancing came off Momentum or Supreme cleave add in the frenzy vicious procs that are 100% on glancing blows...crazy to give that up to go from 1100 hp to 1200 hp. Just my 2 cents

was just runnin a quest and noted that....primal scream, single madstone and barb rage nets 1125 hp this would be further increased if double madstoned...just an idea to show that dropping toughess or not taking epic toughness really is no biggie. with just barb rage hp is 1025

[jejeba86]

So, what is considered the most efficient way to build a pure H-Orc Barbarian with all these changes?

Such a character has 7 heroic feat slots and 2 epic. He is going Legendary Dreadnought using greataxes. Let's consider the following feats are 'non-negotiable' : Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Stunning Blow, Improved Critical:Slashing and Overwhelming Critical. That leaves us with 2 heroic feat slots and one epic feat slot. Which of the following combos would make more sense?

[1] THF, ITHF, GTHF

[2] THF, ITHF, Toughness (or Barbarian Active Past Life)

[3] THF, Toughness, Epic Toughness (I don't think that dropping two THF feats is a good idea though)

Tied to the question above is the following one: What is the best way to attack utilizing all the Dreadnought moves? 2 swings and then Sup. Cleave? or 3 swings then Sup. Cleave? Then chain the remaining cleave moves after the Supreme Cleave? Has anyone crunched these numbers?

EDIT: Yes I saw the post above mine and have read Shade's guides. I am just not sure about the impact of dropping one ore more THF feats now that cleaves are a crucial part of the attack chain, and also what is the "optimal" way to chain together all the cleave moves together with the standard attacks.

Just calculate your damage per swing and remove 10% from it for every two handed feat you remove, plus -3% chance of procing any effect from your equipment. If you only attack with cleaves and first attack sequence.
Momentum can reset lay, and each cleave can reset momentum. So you should be doing lay first, then momentum, and the others in any order.

[akiraproject24]

So, what is considered the most efficient way to build a pure H-Orc Barbarian with all these changes?

Such a character has 7 heroic feat slots and 2 epic. He is going Legendary Dreadnought using greataxes. Let's consider the following feats are 'non-negotiable' : Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Stunning Blow, Improved Critical:Slashing and Overwhelming Critical. That leaves us with 2 heroic feat slots and one epic feat slot. Which of the following combos would make more sense?

[1] THF, ITHF, GTHF

[2] THF, ITHF, Toughness (or Barbarian Active Past Life)

[3] THF, Toughness, Epic Toughness (I don't think that dropping two THF feats is a good idea though)

Tied to the question above is the following one: What is the best way to attack utilizing all the Dreadnought moves? 2 swings and then Sup. Cleave? or 3 swings then Sup. Cleave? Then chain the remaining cleave moves after the Supreme Cleave? Has anyone crunched these numbers?

EDIT: Yes I saw the post above mine and have read Shade's guides. I am just not sure about the impact of dropping one ore more THF feats now that cleaves are a crucial part of the attack chain, and also what is the "optimal" way to chain together all the cleave moves together with the standard attacks.

Not a number cruncher here but can tell you what Ive been doing. Nothing complicated. Fury > boost > momentum >sup cleave >if momentum comes off then repeat if not >spam great cleave/cleave > momentum >sup cleave >fury >boost yada yada

in between any of this spamming I am also throwing regular attacks if and when time in between these abilities. I do really dislike the pause when activating fury but with an ESOS its an auto crit so even if not 19 or 20 nice number. Pretty busy on the hotkeys though and this activity isnt used as aggressivily on trash..Trash I try to spam cleaves more and get in the momentum when I can. Also of note glancing blows are proc'n off my cleaves cept of course if Im moving. Tend to just jump in to the casters CC when available and start the cleaves spams

[emptysands]

EDIT: Yes I saw the post above mine and have read Shade's guides. I am just not sure about the impact of dropping one ore more THF feats now that cleaves are a crucial part of the attack chain, and also what is the "optimal" way to chain together all the cleave moves together with the standard attacks.

Glancing blows proc on cleaves/GC/SC/MS and probably LW. [1]

Without THF chain this is about 20%*50% = 10% of your per swing damage. THF and ITHF are 15% and 20% respective per swing. GTHF adds a third glancing blow giving 50%*75% = 37.5% of the base per swing damage.

OC will at most add 10% to your base per swing damage. Since Cleave, Power Attack and IC: Slashing are pretty much required for any FB build. You have to decided whether GC and OC for 10% dps are worth the 37.% boost from GTHF.


[1] http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=388612

[Azaghan]

I am almost 100% set on dropping toughness. I mean, a Barbarian's role is (massive) DPS, and max DPS is obviously achieved through full THF line along with Cleaves and OC.

On the Toughness issue, I also play a Sorcerer and I can see some simillarities here. Would a Sorcerer drop a DC feat for Mental Toughness? Of course not. And most players agree on that (to be honest I haven't met a single guy with MT on his Sorc). Barbarian is equally blessed with tons of hit points via d12 hit die and a huge CON boost while raged. With the latest achievable hit point totals, Toughness seems a bit excessive, especially if you sacrifice DPS for it.

Even before U14, on pure Horc Barbarian builds some people were sacrificing Toughness for Stunnig Blow, which is a very solid choice for Barbs with their super-high STR. Now, with those sweet new DPS options (Great cleave --> Overwhelming Criticals) I definitely think that Toughness is not top priority for a Horc Barbarian any more.

Just my 2c though

[Nodoze]

Any recommendations on the Best Epic Destiny for a pure HO max DPS Barbarian?

Our party's new Barbarian is about to hit 20. He is pretty much off of Shade's guide with toughness but likely we will LR him out of Toughness once he gets his Epic Destiny ground out.

The only real Epic Destiny mention that I caught above is:

Fury of the wild with twists for momentum swing, imp PA and brace for impact.

[jejeba86]

Any recommendations on the Best Epic Destiny for a pure HO max DPS Barbarian?

Our party's new Barbarian is about to hit 20. He is pretty much off of Shade's guide with toughness but likely we will LR him out of Toughness once he gets his Epic Destiny ground out.

The only real Epic Destiny mention that I caught above is:

Fury of the wild with twists for momentum swing, imp PA and brace for impact.

You have two real options, fury or dreadnought.

Going fury, I suggest for best damage twisting momentum, lay and haste boost.

Going dreadnought, sense weakness, primal scream and tunnel vision.

Of course there are several other options for twisting, but those are considered by the majority as the best dps. About which destiny to stick with, he will have to level both for fate points, so he can even use one per quest.

[emptysands]

You have two real options, fury or dreadnought.

Going fury, I suggest for best damage twisting momentum, lay and haste boost.

Going dreadnought, sense weakness, primal scream and tunnel vision.

Of course there are several other options for twisting, but those are considered by the majority as the best dps. About which destiny to stick with, he will have to level both for fate points, so he can even use one per quest.

Or Sense Weakness, Hail of Blows, and Tunnel Vision.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Or Sense Weakness, Hail of Blows, and Tunnel Vision.

Those are good choices as well by empty!

[mroks28]

18 barbarian 2 fighter
Half Orc

Feats: (not in any order)
cleave
great cleave
power attack
improved critical
thf
ithf
gthf
stunning blow
toughness
overwhelming critical
dont really matter what the last one is i took barb past life

Fury of the Wild:
tunnel vision 3
primal scream 3
fast healing 2
acute instincts 3
malicious weapons 3
wild weapons 3
sense weakness 3
fury eternal 1
unbridled fury 1

Twists:
momentum swing 3 (from Dreadnought)
improved power attack 1 (from Dreadnought)
brace for impact 2 (from Sentinal)

Thats what i am planning on doing once i get all my stuff done i just need 3 more fate points to get brace for impact twisted.