Dear Epic Monkeys

[cohiba007]

What stance are you most using these days and why please

[thegreatneil]

Solo, small groups Grandmaster Air.
Party (haste caster) Grandmaster Earth.

[Celestialbeast]

Grandmaster ocean. Until I get more of my ED unlocked anyways. Then most likely GM Mountain

[sebastianosmith]

I run several pure and splash monks who stay mostly Wind or Earth depending on what they're doing - beating trash or fighting a boss. Situationally, I'll drop them into Water for better saves and a few more points of Wis/DC/AC/Dodge. I almost never have them assume Fire and don't after level eight or so unless they need the strength boost. Amassing ki is not really an issue in any stance if used judiciously.

[sacredguyver]

(34pt Horc Shintao) I stay in GM Water most of the time. When I'm against a boss or other red-named, I'll often switch to GM Fire since doing so would be +3 to-hit/damage and +0.75[W] damage (Water is -2 STR, so I'd get that back plus the +4 STR from GM fire and the +0.75[W] is from Dancing with Flame in the GMoF destiny). I'll lose a few points of AC and about 7% of my Dodge, but since I'm not supposed to be taking hits, it doesn't really hurt me. ┐(￣ー￣)┌

[Rawel_San]

GM fire 90% of the time GM mountain when tanking/on red named.

In fire mostly for the extra ki gen if you're in GmOF the amount of ki you can expend is enormous and
that's even though I'm light so no 50 pt ToD's. Even outside GmOF if I'm in a group I often find that
between stuns/QP and doing a fair amount of damage with the new AML 20 crafted wraps I don't get enough
ki to keep up the rotation I like, since mobs often die too fast.

I keep haste up using pots or epic TSG and have the abbot quiver when I just need running speed.
Just my 2 copper,
Rawel

[thegreatneil]

(34pt Horc Shintao) I stay in GM Water most of the time. When I'm against a boss or other red-named, I'll often switch to GM Fire since doing so would be +3 to-hit/damage and +0.75[W] damage (Water is -2 STR, so I'd get that back plus the +4 STR from GM fire and the +0.75[W] is from Dancing with Flame in the GMoF destiny). I'll lose a few points of AC and about 7% of my Dodge, but since I'm not supposed to be taking hits, it doesn't really hurt me. ┐(￣ー￣)┌

Even with the added .75, i still dont see fire being all that useful. (or the extra .75)
maybe its just my playstyle.

[EvilGhandi]

Solo, small groups Grandmaster Air.
Party (haste caster) Grandmaster Earth.

I'm the opposite. Monks are quite a bit squishier since the last update I run in grandmaster earth for solo play or if I need to try and hold aggro, grandmaster air to boost dps in parties with reliable heals.

I'll drop into master of oceans if I need the saves boost to bypass a particularly nasty trap. I never use fire stance.

My question is how much time folks think they will spend in Vorpal Strikes stance once they correct it, assuming you will or have taken it?

[sephiroth1084]

Solo, small groups Grandmaster Air.
Party (haste caster) Grandmaster Earth.
I do this most of the time, though I have Epic Goggles of Time-Sensing for reasonable self-hasting. Swap to Earth for those times.

[redspecter23]

Solo or no haster around - air
95% of the time in a group - earth
5% of the time in a group - water (where the few extra points of DC might matter)

I don't bother with fire at all. It's a bit more appealing with the GMF enhancements added in, but I built for max DC/utility. If I wanted massive damage, I'd roll up a barb.

[Duke-H-]

Human Ninja / GMoF / Void 4

Using GM Fire most of the time to fuel all the ki abilities. Air for bosses (if the doublestrike does not surpass the extra +w, please, do tell me).


Been contemplating running GM Ocean instead and just swap to Master Fire when i need more ki.
Or maybe taking Crane for my animal path would solve some of the ki issues with non fire.

[DevHead]

GMaster of Water almost exclusively since I like high DCs on my attacks. Since I'm almost always in a group with someone that can haste, Air isn't too useful for me.

Looking into also getting GMaster of Earth, though.

And stealing an idea in here to use Fire for Ki gen.

[Potta]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

[redspecter23]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

If I'm in water stance for higher DC's it's typically not for stunning fist which tops off near 70ish depending on buffs. I'm using it to more reliably land quivering palm chained off of an improved sunder. With quivering palm in the low 40's for DC, every point counts for epic elite one shots. That's the only time where having an instakill really really helps out. On lower difficulties, typically a stun will finish them off after a few seconds of attacking anyway.

Usually on epic elite quests I'm in earth stance anyway as the PRR becomes much more noticeable when you're getting pounded on. There are those moments, however, when having a couple extra points added on to the DC can count. It's a shame that earth has so many advantages over water that many monk players just can't justify using it at all. I was 95% of the time in water stance pre U14 (for max AC and DC's) but losing the top end AC ranking to earth hurt and the small dodge bonus added to water does not make up for it.

[Anthios888]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

While I agree that earth and air are all-around powerful, quivering palm is as competitive as ever and water stance can make a noticeable difference with it.

[DevHead]

There are only 2 options for Monks.

Air and Earth.

The others are worthless.

People pick Water because they want higher DCs. This is crazy. Why? Because most of our attacks that have DCs are capable of landing multiple times on a doublestrike. The 10% additional doublestrike from air gives an additional 10% chance that that attack will proc again. So instead of 1-2 stun attempts, you have a chance of 3. I know the 10% chance doesn't seem like a lot, but a Water stance will only grant you +1-2 dc. We can get such high DCs now with Legendary Tactics/Wis focus/Spare Hand, that the only chance even EE mobs have of resisting a stun is to roll a 20. That'll beat whatever DC you pull out, water stanced or not. When mobs you're fighting only save on 20s, the 10% additional chance for another roll against their save far surpasses the extra DC. The same goes for ToD. If 2 extra DC on ToD gives you a 10% greater chance for an extra 250 damage, then, compare that to air stance ToD. 10% extra chance for 250-500 extra damage.

Fire is a little less stupid, but still a bad choice. +2 hit used to mean something, but now it doesn't. The only thing you're really getting out of fire stance is the extra ki regen. +2 damage is okay, sure, but it will never compare to 10% doublestrike. This benefit is also given for free, with no enhancement points required. Anyone who spends 9AP for +1ab and +1 damage is a moron.

No, the others are not worthless; you simply place a higher value on those two stances for the reasons you outline. If someone wants to use LOTS of monk abilities, especially including the GMoF ki attacks, you're going to need a lot of ki, aka Fire Stance; yes, you can get pretty great passive generation, but that's not fast enough while you're fighting. And like others have said here, Water Stance is great for higher QP. Btw, ToD has a save, too, so a higher save for that means more 500 ticks.

Every stance has its uses; just because they don't fit your style doesn't mean they're worthless.

[Potta]

Okay, we'll consider QP.

Lets say you can land a QP ~50% of the time while not in a stance. Ocean stance would take this to 60%.

You also have an 80% chance at another 60% from TWF.

Therefore, the chance of killing the mob is equivalent to 1 minus the chances that QP failed. There's a 40% chance of failure on the mainhand attack, and a 40% chance of failure on the offhand. This 40% chance of failure has to be increased however, because there's a chance that the offhand strike will not go off at all. We derive the chance of failure for this strike by multiplying the chance of an offhand attack (0.8) with the chance for QP to succeed (0.6). We arrive at a 48% chance that the offhand attack will land a successful QP, which obviously leaves a 52% chance that it will fail. We can determine the overall probability then at 1 - 0.4 * 0.52 = 1 - 0.208 = 0.792, or a 79.2% chance of success.

This 79.2% is in contrast to a non-stanced monk who would have a:

1 - 0.5 * 0.6 = 1 - 0.3 = 0.7, or a 70% chance to kill.

How does the extra DC compare to the additional chance to proc via 13% doublestrike however? It's the same calculation with another step added in.

1 - 0.5 * 0.6 * 0.935 = 71.95%

So when you compare Air to Water for QP, you're comparing essentially 72% vs 79% when you have an even chance of landing it unstanced. Is 7% worth 9AP? I wouldn't pay that for it. Maybe if Water were also a high DPS stance, but it's not.

[Potta]

No, the others are not worthless; you simply place a higher value on those two stances for the reasons you outline. If someone wants to use LOTS of monk abilities, especially including the GMoF ki attacks, you're going to need a lot of ki, aka Fire Stance; yes, you can get pretty great passive generation, but that's not fast enough while you're fighting. And like others have said here, Water Stance is great for higher QP. Btw, ToD has a save, too, so a higher save for that means more 500 ticks.

Every stance has its uses; just because they don't fit your style doesn't mean they're worthless.

I'll put it another way. Imagine that tomorrow, in a hotfix, Turbine gave monks a new enhancement line. You could spend 9AP in it for +1hit and +1damage. Would you do it? No. Of course you wouldn't. It's a terrible investment. +1hit/damage is nice, but you can get a lot better for 9AP. That is however exactly what a Fire stance monk is doing by investing AP in his stance. What is he to do then? Use fire stance but not put AP into it? He could, but then the tradeoff for -2 Wisdom is looking a lot more lobsided if you aren't even getting a +4 stat boost out of it.

The smart thing to do would be to realise that Air is the best choice. When he needs Ki, he can swap into Fire stance for several seconds, fill himself up and switch back again. Ki does not decay that quickly. The +1 in GMoF allows me to go over 180 without it even starting to decay. If I find myself low now, I can also top up with Inner Focus on a fairly low cooldown. And failing all of that, I can decide, I'm a bit low on Ki, I can just not use abilities on this next mob. That can happen relatively often by the way, when you have so many mobs immune to your main ki abilities. Are you supposed to QP or Stun or ToD Constructs or Undead? Nope. They're punching bags to generate Ki. Furthermore, Air is the second best stance to generate Ki. I get the feeling when listening to Fire stance users that they have this impression of being in Air stance as being constantly Ki starved. It's not like that at all. It can be from time to time, but intelligent play and a little rationing goes a long way.

Water stance isn't as big of a mistake, but it still is one. ToD does similar damage in air stance after you factor in Doublestrikes. Stunning Fist DCs are so high now that +2 from water means almost nothing. QP DC is the only real benefit, and in that case you're looking at a 7% improvement compared to Air. For significantly less DPS. Not a worthwhile trade.

[HighPrior]

GM Earth almost constantly. The real reason I use Earth is the x3 crit multiplier on 19-20. Combine that with the +1 from dreadnought and fist of iron you get some consistently massive crits.
Switch to fire/air when the tank can't hold against my hate.

If i were dark though i would be more inclined to run around in Air for the doublestrike ToD.

[Uska]

Usually fire or earth I like fire for the damage boost and so I can spam ki use.

[DevHead]

I'll put it another way. Imagine that tomorrow, in a hotfix, Turbine gave monks a new enhancement line. You could spend 9AP in it for +1hit and +1damage. Would you do it? No. Of course you wouldn't. It's a terrible investment. +1hit/damage is nice, but you can get a lot better for 9AP. That is however exactly what a Fire stance monk is doing by investing AP in his stance. What is he to do then? Use fire stance but not put AP into it? He could, but then the tradeoff for -2 Wisdom is looking a lot more lobsided if you aren't even getting a +4 stat boost out of it.

The smart thing to do would be to realise that Air is the best choice. When he needs Ki, he can swap into Fire stance for several seconds, fill himself up and switch back again. Ki does not decay that quickly. The +1 in GMoF allows me to go over 180 without it even starting to decay. If I find myself low now, I can also top up with Inner Focus on a fairly low cooldown. And failing all of that, I can decide, I'm a bit low on Ki, I can just not use abilities on this next mob. That can happen relatively often by the way, when you have so many mobs immune to your main ki abilities. Are you supposed to QP or Stun or ToD Constructs or Undead? Nope. They're punching bags to generate Ki. Furthermore, Air is the second best stance to generate Ki. I get the feeling when listening to Fire stance users that they have this impression of being in Air stance as being constantly Ki starved. It's not like that at all. It can be from time to time, but intelligent play and a little rationing goes a long way.

Water stance isn't as big of a mistake, but it still is one. ToD does similar damage in air stance after you factor in Doublestrikes. Stunning Fist DCs are so high now that +2 from water means almost nothing. QP DC is the only real benefit, and in that case you're looking at a 7% improvement compared to Air. For significantly less DPS. Not a worthwhile trade.

You say a 7% increase in DPS isn't worth it, but you laud the 10% extra double-strike? It really doesn't seem that much more to me. I used to use Air all the time, actually, but my toon isn't really built for raw DPS; her damage comes from insta-killing and stunning anything that moves. It works well for my playstyle.

[Potta]

You say a 7% increase in DPS isn't worth it, but you laud the 10% extra double-strike? It really doesn't seem that much more to me. I used to use Air all the time, actually, but my toon isn't really built for raw DPS; her damage comes from insta-killing and stunning anything that moves. It works well for my playstyle.

You would do well to read what I wrote, and not what you imagined I wrote.

It's 7% extra chance to kill a mob with QP assuming your DC is 11 higher than their fort save.

That is in no way equivalent to 7% DPS. Not even close.

Edit: I get that some prefer that kind of playstyle, and that's fine. I'm not one to judge that. I know I certainly overfocus on DPS to the detriment of my defensive capabilities, but it's what I enjoy, so I do it. But you should at least be aware that it is a weaker choice. I would love it if Water Stance was given a proper niche. Currently it's in the unenviable position of not really doing anything well. A few percent dodge chance is okay, but if you wanted to tank, you'd be in Earth. Wisdom bonus? Not enough. There's no way +2dc is equivalent in power to your playstyle as +10-13% doublestrike is to mine. Even when Water stance was bugged a few weeks ago to give +25% dodge, I still never saw another monk using it. Why is that? Surely 25% dodge is powerful, but even then, it had no identity. Fire is for Ki, Air is for DPS, Earth is for Tanking. Water is for what?

I'm hoping the Henshin Mystic Prestige will give Water stance a purpose.

[Yazzman]

Human light GMoF in GM Fire with Jidz. Obviously I'm a gimp and should reroll immediately.

[edgarallanpoe]

Edit: I get that some prefer that kind of playstyle, and that's fine. I'm not one to judge that.

Really? Given the condescending tone of your posts that seems to be *exactly* what you are doing.

I have several monks and all of them are capped and viable for any quest the game has. I have both light and dark and every race except Elf. My Horc runs almost exclusively in Fire stance....why? BECAUSE HE IS A FRIGGIN HORC AND THAT IS WHAT HE WANTS! lol

The game is about having fun...and if running a Monk in fire is fun the I say go for it. Is it uber DPS? No. Is it uber defense? No. But a fire stance monk is more than capable of running any content in this game. He/she is far from a gimp just because of the stance. Monk bring so much more to the table than just an elemental stance.

[Feralthyrtiaq]

Unless I want the saving throw boost of Water 3...

Also have Fire 3 but never ever ever need it...

Ki is never an issue...never...

But I am not a Dex Build...

4 level ups in Strength

2 level ups in Constitution

14 Starting dex with +3 Tome

3 Tiers of Wisdom from GMoF so Far

Mobs save on a stun very rarely.



15 Starting Wis with +4 Tome

[mrtweakin]

Air and Earth for the reasons mentioned already.

Even with GMoF on a dark monk I find air stance and +Ki generating items to be pretty capable of keeping my Ki high enough to constantly spam high dps strikes. An argument could be made for going Fire if you didn't have Ki generating items for sure

Earth III is pretty awesome. I find my fingers get really bored when I am in it though :) I am hoping with overwhelming crit getting fixed this will become even better.

Water is just not very good. It really needs a buff. Yes, there are edge cases where getting an extra couple DC might get your QP to land in EE, but yeah.. the sacrifice made for it is too great. You are giving up a lot of DPS and chance to land additional strikes (compared to air).

[MaxwellEdison]

Murderthumbs is a Human Shintao, Str/Wis based. I run in GM Earth, combined with 300% HA To maximize my survivability for soloing/duoing epics and the new quests. With orchid+drifting lotus+cleave and great cleave you can just jump into the group of baddies and keep firing away AoEs while tabbing around to toss out stuns and healing curses, the more targets cursed the more HPs recovered by the cleaves. Super fun.

[Arlathen]

GM Fire 4 for my Longsword WSS build. Consider:

Additional Ki on Strike (+1)
Additional Ki on Critical Hit (+5) (Crit Range 17-20)
25% Healing Amp Insight Bonus with Epic Jidz-Tetka
+2 Tactical Feat DC for Stunning Blow

It's a nice package of effects for Ki/Cleave/Kukan-Do/FoL/ spamming build that has over 400% Heal Amp, Vampirism weapons and is madly using every GMoF destiny ability when off timer.

All 4 stances have there uses for different builds. To say otherwise is limiting your choice in your build.

[IllOracle]

GM of Fire until my Amp gear is finished (light monk). I need one shard from 'Deeps' then I'll probably respec to another stance. With Oremi's and Fire stance, I routinely have more ki than can be used.

Hijack question for the other light monks: Anyone able to get more than 2-4 HP back from FoL?

[Arlathen]

Hijack question for the other light monks: Anyone able to get more than 2-4 HP back from FoL?

Yup, 4-8 per hit, with 4-12 per hit from Vampirism, dual wielded weapons for a potential total of 12-30 health regained per attack swing. Dual cleaves for a good topper.

400% or more Heal Amp Required:
30% Human Improved Recovery
30% Monk Improved Recovery
10% DT Eldritch Rune
20% DT Tempest Rune
25% Jidz Insight Bonus
30% GS Pos3 Weapon / PDK Gloves
= 398% rounded, which actually translates in game to 400% and a 4-8 FoL attack.

[edgarallanpoe]

Yup, 4-8 per hit, with 4-12 per hit from Vampirism, dual wielded weapons for a potential total of 12-30 health regained per attack swing. Dual cleaves for a good topper.

400% or more Heal Amp Required:
30% Human Improved Recovery
30% Monk Improved Recovery
10% DT Eldritch Rune
20% DT Tempest Rune
25% Jidz Insight Bonus
30% GS Pos3 Weapon / PDK Gloves
= 398% rounded, which actually translates in game to 400% and a 4-8 FoL attack.

Yeah but Matt, you need that healing amp because you are hitting mobs with the equivalent of a candy cane!! HAHAHAH!!!

Come on bro....didn't you read in this thread that anyone who doesn't run in either Earth or Wind is a gimp? jeeze...

:D :P

[Arlathen]

Yeah but Matt, you need that healing amp because you are hitting mobs with the equivalent of a candy cane!! HAHAHAH!!!

Come on bro....didn't you read in this thread that anyone who doesn't run in either Earth or Wind is a gimp? jeeze...

:D :P

Didn't you get the memo, Rob? Monks do all there damage through GMoF Epic Destiny now, vampirism weapons are just your means of doing resource free runs :P

Gotta move with the times, gotta move with the times...

[Kimeni]

My opionions in reference to monk and my own playstyle only:

After having played many different monks/monk lives, I've finally settled on the Wis/Str Horc Grand Master of Ocean. Spending 98% of time in Ocean Stance, and 2% of the time in Earth.

Higher saves, good AC, great Dodge, no real negative impact to DPS, and silly high DCs. The +3 passive ki regen is more amazing than it sounds, never have ki issues between Elegant Crane, a +1 ki on hit item.

Fire is meh, I used to only use it when I need +hit, which, for a number of reasons I don't need anymore.

Earth is nice for when I am specifically intending to tank.

Air is great for DPS, but that's all it does for me, and Monks are so much more than just DPS. Air is helpful for Dex builds which tend to rely on handwrap effects/SA more for damage, and the additional hits really do add up.

[goodspeed]

It's a flip. I'll go wind if I feel the healer has everything going nicely. But if heals are a lil sketchy then I'll go fire for the extra amp. If heals are really screwed up, then it's mountain time cause im gonna need all the hp and dr I can get.

Hate really isn't an issue as no hate gear on the monk and unless i'm really trying the tank usually keeps it.

Now if I didn't have a ki item be it a robe, or the necklace or anything, then fire would prolly be my main stance as I spam everything. I spam the sun to hit finisher, I spam the water for the healers sp, I spam the light dark finisher. All the while spamming the element finishers one after the other in between the durations. Lots and lots of clicking going on.

[Dalsheel]

Playing a Helf dark monk with rogue dile

I use GM Fire most of the time for the extra ki. I use monk special attacks almost every hit so ki is never enough for me

When I solo I often use GM Ocean for the extra survivability and the higher DCs on stun/QP

I hate Earth stance cause gets me too much aggro and I end up losing a lot of DPS from SA dmg.

Wind just wont give me enough ki for my play style so it's out of the question as well.

10% doublestrike is nice, but wont keep up in DPS with constant spamming of monk special attacks.

[dpadan17]

Sure the air is nice for doublestrike and such, but with all the new gadgets and monk ki strikes, even in fire stance, I find myself spamming these so much I don't have ki sometimes. Running with a good dps group you don't get an opportunity to gather much needed ki. Call it how you like it but it's all about play style. Someone said you can just not use any abilities on the next mob.....why?!? That's what ki is for. So wind is nice but fire does wonders. Also the healing amp is a boost of win as well. Other than that I switch to earth for the Prr and 110 ac. Makes things quite nice

I do agree ocean is only useful for dc's. But hell, if you can't get your wiz up enough then it's time to reroll or tr....Having a twist for +6 in stunning abilities makes running in fire worthwhile

Here's my order

1. Fire 2. Earth (close 2nd) 3. Wind 4. Ocean.

[Rawel_San]

Someone needs to explain to me how they manage to keep ki up outside of fire stance. In anything other
then epic elites I have constant issues with ki even in fire stance.

Every 6 secs stun, every 6 secs QP, cycling mountain strikes 3 of them mean almost no down time.
If in GMoF you get another 3-4 abilities that have 6,15,15 second timers that should always be timered.
If god forbid you are a dark monk there's ToD that should be timered 100% percent of the time.

When my QP lands reliably and I'm in a party with at least one caster I'm always just about able to keep
my ki up between the amount of winging and mobs that die too fast for me to get any ki.

[DevHead]

Someone needs to explain to me how they manage to keep ki up outside of fire stance. In anything other
then epic elites I have constant issues with ki even in fire stance.

Every 6 secs stun, every 6 secs QP, cycling mountain strikes 3 of them mean almost no down time.
If in GMoF you get another 3-4 abilities that have 6,15,15 second timers that should always be timered.
If god forbid you are a dark monk there's ToD that should be timered 100% percent of the time.

When my QP lands reliably and I'm in a party with at least one caster I'm always just about able to keep
my ki up between the amount of winging and mobs that die too fast for me to get any ki.

High Wis + High Concentration = great passive generation and you can hold your ki for longer and it decreases slowly.

There are items that also give +1 Ki per hit.

Crane animal path in enhancements for bonus Ki on crits.

I think there's higher generation in GMoF and you have a Ki clicky for about 70 avg Ki per use, cooldown is 3 minutes, I think.

[Taimasan]

Someone needs to explain to me how they manage to keep ki up outside of fire stance. In anything other
then epic elites I have constant issues with ki even in fire stance.

Every 6 secs stun, every 6 secs QP, cycling mountain strikes 3 of them mean almost no down time.
If in GMoF you get another 3-4 abilities that have 6,15,15 second timers that should always be timered.
If god forbid you are a dark monk there's ToD that should be timered 100% percent of the time.

When my QP lands reliably and I'm in a party with at least one caster I'm always just about able to keep
my ki up between the amount of winging and mobs that die too fast for me to get any ki.


Sounds like you need to take a look at your attack score.

[drakwar]

Earth, with a very small side order of water


Earth : extra hp, extra damage on crit, sunsoul set proc and extra prr loverly defence + a whole buunch o haste clickies.

Water : for when that extra saves are just needed and when sittng at begining of quest, for the extra passive ki gen. gota charge that epic moment :).... oh and of course extra dc for when ya moment is charged.

[Rawel_San]

Sounds like you need to take a look at your attack score.

Interesting idea. My self buffed to hit is between 46-54 depending on wraps/pa. I have a 42 wisdom outside
of GMoF and a 71 concentration. I could grab extra to-hit by wearing epic spectrals again but I can't help
feeling that would be an overall dps decrease on most mobs vs. claw set. What to-hit do you think I should
be getting to then?

[conanj77]

On my halfling monk I use Wind and Water, mostly water, but wind for when I am not tanking.
On my Halfelf monk I use Fire and Earth, mostly fire, but I will use earth as I get into epic levels(she is only level 7atm, I TR'd her from a halfling right before xpack)

What are your thoughts on halfling monks? I have been getting alot of aggro from Human light monks telling me that my finesse Ninja-spy is a "Dead build" when I hit for 40-50points(110-120 crits) with out power attack on, and I get an additional 3d6+8 SA damage, So I think the build is still alive and functioning...

CJ out!

[Potta]

The finesse build is behind both STR and Wis builds atm. Contrary to popular belief, and contrary even to my own expectations, +hit is almost totally irrelevant now. The concern pre-expansion here was that +hit would be devalued and melee would start missing a lot more because we wouldn't be able to obtain enough +hit after the change to land attacks on all but a 1. That didn't happen really. +hit was devalued, but only because it was basically a given that you'd hit on all but a 1.

There was only one reason to go dex based in the past. +hit maximisation while short on build resources. By that I mean, you were missing most of the things that would let you get your Str high enough while still maintaining the baseline dex required for GM Air, the best DPS stance, and GTWF. That can be hard to do on a 28/32 point build with no tomes.

Now however, +hit really doesn't matter much at all. You're paying a feat for the privilege of doing less damage. This may change in the future with the enhancement revamp. We've heard there is some finesse boosts coming with it, but currently even as a halfling, you'd be better off being Str or Wis based. Your +hit will drop, but it won't matter at all. Use that feat for something else.

[Rawel_San]

<snip>. That didn't happen really. +hit was devalued, but only because it was basically a given that you'd hit on all but a 1.
<snip>


This is completely and utterly wrong. Probably no build now hits everything on a 1. And most builds will
very often miss on a 2 or even 5 especially without a bard in the party. Sahuagin in epic hard (i.e. the trivial
difficulty) get missed on a 2 with a 53 to hit which if you have aggro (i.e. without sneak bonus) is not that easy to get.
When you move to actual high AC mobs the numbers needed to hit on a 2 go up drastically.

The reason that to-hit was devalued is that you always graze now and more importantly the effect of raising to
hit is tiny. On most mobs +1 to hit is worth between 0.7-1.2% chance to land a hit.

[Potta]

This is completely and utterly wrong. Probably no build now hits everything on a 1. And most builds will
very often miss on a 2 or even 5 especially without a bard in the party. Sahuagin in epic hard (i.e. the trivial
difficulty) get missed on a 2 with a 53 to hit which if you have aggro (i.e. without sneak bonus) is not that easy to get.
When you move to actual high AC mobs the numbers needed to hit on a 2 go up drastically.

The reason that to-hit was devalued is that you always graze now and more importantly the effect of raising to
hit is tiny. On most mobs +1 to hit is worth between 0.7-1.2% chance to land a hit.

53 is stupidly easy to get. What a ridiculous example. I'm standing with nothing but self buffs right now at 55. And I'm entirely wisdom based. No levelups in Str, no Exceptional Str, no Insightful Str. Not even with Madstone active, I rarely use that anymore since GMoF came along. No Weapon Focus feats, no Shintao or Sun Soul set bonuses to +hit. Nothing. You could easily push above 60ab self buffed. This goes up even further when you start adding things like, Inspire Courage, Inspire Excellence: Strength, Recitation, Primal Scream, etc.

Also, do your calculations also include Precision? For Dark Monks at least, it's generally preferable to Power Attack, allowing us much better use of our sneak dice on bosses. The +5% hit from Precision is equivalent to about +10 hit.

Furthermore, on top of this ridiculous example you've placed even more ridiculous constraints. No sneak bonus? That's crazy. +5 sneak, +3 exceptional sneak, +2 flanking bonus and +3 hound flanking bonus if applicable - which it is to me. That's another +13 to hit. This thread is about DPS, and not factoring in sneak bonuses to hit on a thread about DPS is stupid. Deliberately omitting them for the sake of making a nonsensical poorly exampled point is dumbfounding. Because even if you are pulling aggro, you can keep trash stunned nearly 100% of the time. Guess what that means. You get your sneak bonus back.

Pre U14, I was Str based. Now I'm Wis based and I have no problems hitting at all while putting absolutely no investment in +hit. On any difficulty setting.

[Potta]

I've just gone back over the spreadsheet I made for myself pre-U14 to determine AC thresholds. Reasonably well buffed, while dps'ing - not tanking - and therefore in possession of my sneak attack bonus I could fairly easily get to +75 hit on the first two attacks of the attack sequence. For me to start missing on a 2 on those attacks, the mob would have to have 64ac.

Lets put 64ac in perspective. That's about how much Epic LoB had before U14. The hardest raid content. It's also about the same as Razor Arm and Blood Plate on epic. It's only a few points behind Malicia, who had one of the highest ACs in the game.

You'd have a hard job convincing me that the trash mobs in the joke of EH have higher ACs than bosses in the old Epic difficulty did.

Oh but wait, I didn't even include Precision. That brings it up to 69ac before I start missing on a 1. Higher than Malicia and eLoB.

[Rawel_San]

Hmm ok you're standing at 55 to hit with nothing but self buffs and no investment in str? Care to give me a
break down? My monk is also a wis build though with one level up in str to hit 18 for stance. I find myself sitting
at 46 normally without sneak attack.

23 base
2 kyoshos
4 heroism
2 boat
13 36 str
6 wraps
-5 PA
1 halfling
1 litany (not sure this stacks)
-----
47 to-hit
4 epic spectrals
------
51
2 new set if you can fit it in
-----
53

If I'm soloing I tend to have aggro. If you are not soloing the idea that someone else always has aggro
is completely preposterous and while stunning helps a ton with that it's not foolproof.

also for +5% chance to hit to be equivalent to +10 to hit you would need to be attacking a mob with an AC of 100.

[Potta]

Turn off power attack.

There, you're done!

If you're missing at all on a 2, Power Attack should not be on.

You're forgetting Rage and Yugo pots.

[Rawel_San]

Turn off power attack.

There, you're done!

If you're missing at all on a 2, Power Attack should not be on.

You're forgetting Rage and Yugo pots.

I think 36 str is with yugo pot. The litany does actually not stack.

Whether it's worth turning power attack off if you're missing on a 2 is not obvious anymore. If you would want
to do the math on that I'd love to see it. I got bored after about 2 pages but I will finish it up at some point.

Btw I'm still waiting for your breakdown.:)

53 (which btw in my breakdown needs a lot of gear) does not get you hit on a 2 even on epic hard sahuagin. Ofcourse it's possible that
the ac of epic hard sahuagin is almost the same as the AC of epic elite drow blademasters so another 5 to-hit gets me the hit on a 2.:D

[Potta]

23 base
4 heroism
3 boat
12 33 str
6 wraps
1 fighter past life
3 dancing with flame
4 goggles of accuracy

= 56

Don't know why you're so insistent that I do this breakdown, yours was close enough to it that it should have been obvious I wasn't exaggerating.

Also, Litany shouldn't interfere with Yugo pots as far as I'm aware. Wouldn't know for sure though, gave up farming that thing a long time ago. The +1 profane to attack will not however stack with the +1 profane to attack on the ship.

And it's fairly easy to do the math on Power Attack vs not missing. Consider 100 attacks. 50 are done at your normal unmodified AB, so out of those 50, we'd expect to see 5% of them missed thanks to rolling a 2. That's 2.5 attacks. With TWF and a decent doublestrike percentage, each attack missed is the equivalent of two strikes on the mob. Our 2.5 swings missed are actually 5 swings. I'm doing about 200 per swing currently on mobs that aren't stunned. 200x5 = 1000 damage lost. Compare this to the gain from PA. 90% of attacks will hit, so that's 90. 180 strikes after TWF/Doublestrike. 180x5 damage per attack = 900 damage gained. You lose 100 damage from PA on basic melee damage.

Not a huge amount, no. But this very simplistic model also fails to account for strikes that are missed because of a 2. If you miss a +16 GMoEarth strike, that's 32 more damage lost. If you miss a ToD, that's anywhere from 250-3000 damage lost. It doesn't consider stuns that are missed on a two, losing damage from yourself and your whole party. It doesn't consider the reduced Ki gen from missing on a 2. There's just no way PA is a good bet if it makes you start missing.

Oh, and this is the best of a possible set of worst case scenario's for PA. Imagine it it made you miss on a 3. Or a 4.

If it weren't for Improved Sunder and how extremely important that feat is for monks, I wouldn't take PA at all. Precision is always on for me.

Edit: Actually, its 190 attacks, not 180. Forgot to include the attack sequence. Even so, result doesn't change much. 190x5 = 950. Still less damage.

[Rawel_San]

So 56 is no PA, a fighter past life and a slot taken up with a +4 to hit item, dancing with flames is so good
that I agree that's a keeper if you get lucky enough to be in that destiny at the time.
On an epic hard sahuagin soldier it gives you a .94% chance to hit. I suppose that gets rounded up to a hit
on a 2 but this is a mob with at best average AC (48). I haven't actually tested the AC on the epic hard
blademasters in sschyn but I'm guessing their AC is at least in the low 50's possibly higher and this
is still epic hard.

If you say you always hit on a 2 that should mean ALWAYS not when I have a bard, no aggro, the target has
no fort (i.e. you get all sneaks) and I'm running an epic hard.

To respond to whether or not PA on is good.

Your count completely ignores the fact that how many attacks you miss now depends on the mobs ac. It also
ignores the fact that you are not losing criticals, but normal attacks, it further ignores the fact that
you now get glancing blows on misses instead of getting proper misses. I'm afraid my monks damage is also
definitely not even remotely close to being 200 on a normal attack (are you counting sneak damage again?).
If I add up tod rings shintao set and AML 20 wraps with proper banes I might hit for 120 on non stunned mobs
but probably even less then that.

I think there's a good chance that turning off PA is the way to go but it's very far from obvious at the moment.
It definitely depends on the number of misses you get without it and what your actual dps per hit is.

[Will_Ferrer]

I play a Str/Wis human Hamp Shintao monk with Void IV and I fight in the Fire stance 95% of the time. I dont do massive damage but I have fun healing myself for 200+ healing ki every 15 seconds. This is mostly due to melee alacrity devotion trinket I crafted. Still has a few tweaks tho.

I have a monstrous Ki addiction and even with Fire IV crane II and enhanced Ki and still run out of Ki. My fingers tend to get bored with any other stance /shrug. Nearly every strike uses Ki and all my movement begins with a leap. In between fights I charge up my finisher to healing Ki and heal myself and sometimes others around me. Thru most fights I spam Void IV Earth Wind Eagle Claw and its finisher Shinning Star. I use Unbalancing Strike,
Fist of light(4-8 HP), Ku kan do(when applicable) and Quivering Palm(if success is greater then 20%) oh and of course stunning fist. i

I SPEND/NEED A LOT OF KI and waste a lot of it frivolously. I almost never cast the spells. And I too have discovered Precision. Now I'm not good with math(or spelling/grammer), I can't follow a string of numbers and words that lead to a conclusion and understand the journey I just took, but it fits my play style better then Combat Expertise did and it still lets me meet the Shintao Prereq. I use it a lot more too, but I agree its a lot tougher to tell if hitting or grazing, so many tall mobs. Plus I dont think grazes generate Ki and as I stated B4 I SPEND/NEED A LOT OF KI. I have Power Attack and Improved Sunder as well so I get plenty of fun things to spam. Strange thing is I don't even use the GMoF very often, when I do start really using it I have no idea how Im gonna be able to keep up with that kinda Ki consumption.

I have been considering changing my build to a Wisdom based monk or even a Dark Monk thats a pretty big swing in a different direction and right now I have more pressing builds to work on even still on paper I would still be a Fire Stance monk.

from all that Ive read I'm an outsider build with most monks falling into Wind/Earth builds. I dont mind being a GIMP

[Potta]

So 56 is no PA, a fighter past life and a slot taken up with a +4 to hit item, dancing with flames is so good
that I agree that's a keeper if you get lucky enough to be in that destiny at the time.


An item I mostly wear for the Large Augment Slot on it. +20hp is very helpful. My character is squishy enough as it is. When I get my crafting higher, I'll also put a Flexible Shard on it. Not having PA isn't a loss because I have Precision on instead, and the two are mutually exclusive. And there's no luck about being in GMoF. It's a choice, one that I make all the time because I have finished grinding the fate points I need.



I suppose that gets rounded up to a hit
on a 2 but this is a mob with at best average AC (48). I haven't actually tested the AC on the epic hard
blademasters in sschyn but I'm guessing their AC is at least in the low 50's possibly higher and this
is still epic hard.


It does get rounded up. And yeah, their AC is average. But so is my AB if you force it into the constraints of no outside buffs and no sneak attack bonus. EE mobs do have higher AC, and you know what, it doesn't matter in the slightest. Because I don't solo EE. In those harder areas, I'll be with a party that usually offers more buffs. I'll get a Primal Scream, or a Recitation, or songs. I'll get 5 other people who are also targets for the mobs to focus on. I don't play my monk as a tank. I have barely 600hp self buffed. No way am I tanking anything in EE. I wait for others to engage. I go after mobs making a beeline for casters. If anything does start aggro'ing on me, I stun it, knock it down or blind it. All of which give me my sneak attack bonus back while simultaneously reducing the damage I take. It's not something I even do to enable sneak attacks, it's something I do to stay alive - because like I said earlier, I'm not tanking with my build. No way. If I've pulled aggro on something that I can't stop from hurting me, not getting my sneak attack bonus to damage or AB is the absolute last of my concerns. I stop attacking to get into GM Earth, swap in a displace clicky, block and chug down Silver Flame pots until the pain has stopped.



If you say you always hit on a 2 that should mean ALWAYS not when I have a bard, no aggro, the target has
no fort (i.e. you get all sneaks) and I'm running an epic hard.


I've already proven the fact this is true. 56ab self buffed + precision. That means I'll hit anything up to ~53-54ac on a 2 every time. I've given you the figures for this to prove it's the case, so I don't really see what you're getting at here. I not only hit the AC figure you've given, I hit ~15% above it. That's plenty of room for higher AC mobs in EH. Enough room even to do the same to a lot of EE mobs with no increase in AB.



I'm afraid my monks damage is also
definitely not even remotely close to being 200 on a normal attack (are you counting sneak damage again?).
If I add up tod rings shintao set and AML 20 wraps with proper banes I might hit for 120 on non stunned mobs
but probably even less then that.


I am counting sneak attack damage, yes. Because not counting it is not at all representative of how the game plays. I'm also counting Tunnel Vision and Henshin Mystic set and Brawling Gloves and Sense Weakness.

I don't understand how on the one hand you can be so insistent that AB is still relevant, but on the other gladly accept a -5 penalty to it for PA when a better alternative exists. I accept that AB is so irrelevant on easy content like EH that I could often swap to PA, not take any extra misses and do a bit more damage. I don't do that however, because micro'ing PA and Precision has no appeal for me on top of what I'm already doing.

Before this thread, I often wondered just what other monks in my party were doing to always be ending up to 1/3 to 1/2 my kills. From the answers in this thread so far, I've begun to understand.

[Carpone]

You'll spend a considerable amount of time collecting fate points in other destinies. Wind Stance works superbly well regardless of the destiny you're in.

[Dalsheel]

I see many people here claiming that wind stance is the best.

How do you manage to keep up with Ki and your Ki strikes?

I use fire stance and often find myself with 0 Ki. I often equip Frozen Tunic instead of my Epic Red Robe just for the extra Ki generation while in fire stance.
Since you mentioned something about maximizing DPS, I'll remind you that having ToD off cooldown and not being able to use it even for 1second is a serious DPS loss.
I would also like to remind you that Ki strikes in between ToDs are equally important. Not using them because you want your Ki for the next ToD is a major DPS loss.
Not using Ki strikes on the next mob is -obviously- a major DPS loss (especially on EE and/or raid bosses)
GMoF makes Ki generation even more important since it requires large amounts of Ki to use the various abilities it offers.

I know for a fact that a simple +1Ki item is simply NOT ENOUGH. Passive Ki generation is a joke during combat even if you hit the maximum amount that is 4ki/6seconds.
I am not making this up, this is my experience after playing a monk for a long time. Playing a monk is about hitting Ki strikes as often as possible. If your play style is *Lock the target and auto-attack* then you're better off playing a barbarian cause even the fighter has clicks you have to keep up with. As soon as you understand this you will be playing a better monk.

I am really curious about what your opinion is on the matter

[Arlathen]

I see many people here claiming that wind stance is the best.

How do you manage to keep up with Ki and your Ki strikes?

I use fire stance and often find myself with 0 Ki. I often equip Frozen Tunic instead of my Epic Red Robe just for the extra Ki generation while in fire stance.
Since you mentioned something about maximizing DPS, I'll remind you that having ToD off cooldown and not being able to use it even for 1second is a serious DPS loss.
I would also like to remind you that Ki strikes in between ToDs are equally important. Not using them because you want your Ki for the next ToD is a major DPS loss.
Not using Ki strikes on the next mob is -obviously- a major DPS loss (especially on EE and/or raid bosses)
GMoF makes Ki generation even more important since it requires large amounts of Ki to use the various abilities it offers.

I know for a fact that a simple +1Ki item is simply NOT ENOUGH. Passive Ki generation is a joke during combat even if you hit the maximum amount that is 4ki/6seconds.
I am not making this up, this is my experience after playing a monk for a long time. Playing a monk is about hitting Ki strikes as often as possible. If your play style is *Lock the target and auto-attack* then you're better off playing a barbarian cause even the fighter has clicks you have to keep up with. As soon as you understand this you will be playing a better monk.

I am really curious about what your opinion is on the matter

Simply that my main Ki-life-sucking Monk is a WSS based building dual wielding Oathblades, in GM Fire stance and wearing a +1 Ki item.

It's thanks to the critical effect portion of my GM Fire Stance and my Oathblades (Crit range of 15-20) that I'm sucking large portions of Ki up to keep all my Ki abilities used.

I additionally have Cleave & Great Cleave on spam when in packs of mobs, which really helps pump up the Ki bar.