Remove scroll/wand vendors

[Phidius]

I'd like to see scroll vendors removed completely, as it spoils several important game mechanics.

1. Wizards ability to inscribe scrolls that they find - this is only used with level 8/9 spells, really. All the 1-7 spells can be bought from a vendor before leveling up, and then just select the ones that aren't for sale.

2. Spell point balancing - the ability to carry mutiple stacks of scrolls has caused Turbine to develop content that presumes that people have them.

3. Devaluing of class features - Who cares that Rangers/Paladins/Bards can cast Cure spells? Just splash Rogue/Bard/Arti and use Heal/Reconstruct scrolls. Why slot Teleport/Greater Teleport? They work just as well from scrolls.

4. Devaluing of loot - scrolls found in chests now are the first to be sold to the bartender, and the first to be destroyed when inventory is full. I do get excited when I find Dimension Door scrolls, though.

And to illustrate my point, here's an Order of the Stick comic :D

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

[V_mad_jester_V]

And to illustrate my point, here's an Order of the Stick comic :D

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

no **** but i love you just for posting that comic up X-D

[Syllph]

Interesting, but keep in mind a wizard in D&D is also supposed to have the feat scribe scroll.

With this he makes his own scrolls at a cost. Wizards across the realms have made and sold these at a mark-up to make profit. If the scroll vendors didn't do it, perhaps players would petition to have this feat enabled and it really wouldn't change much except perhaps a player vendor and not an in-game vendor. Personally I prefer the latter as it gives a plat sink (albeit a small one).

[thwart]

Then vendors selling weapons would devalue monks because unarmed combat is one of the hallmarks of that class.

[Phidius]

Then vendors selling weapons would devalue monks because unarmed combat is one of the hallmarks of that class.

The only weapons I've ever bought from a vendor were originally pulled from a chest.

Your suggestion would be fair if the static vendors sold worthwhile weapons.

[HatsuharuZ]

LOL at the OotS comic! It doesn't really prove your point, though, it just tells me that Wis is not a dump stat on a ranger :P


I'm not saying your idea is a bad one, but if it were implemented, there would be some consequences:

1) Scroll/wand prices on the AH would go up.

2) TR wizards would want to be able to keep scrolls they'd inscribed from their past lives.

3) Wizards (and all other casters, now that I think about it) would demand some way to craft wands and scrolls.

4) People with no money to buy the overpriced scrolls/wands would be forced to chest farm.

[Phidius]

no **** but i love you just for posting that comic up X-D

Order of the Stick - the fire-retardant apparel of choice when posting a nerf request on the DDO forums.

[Phidius]

LOL at the OotS comic! It doesn't really prove your point, though, it just tells me that Wis is not a dump stat on a ranger :P
...

Not intended to prove a point, just illustrate it. And stave off the flames :D


...

I'm not saying your idea is a bad one, but if it were implemented, there would be some consequences:

1) Scroll/wand prices on the AH would go up.
...

I'm OK with that. I don't buy scrolls of the AH now, but I'm sure the demand would outstrip the supply in short order. At least for the key scrolls.

It would just be a much higher plat sink than it is today.


...
2) TR wizards would want to be able to keep scrolled they'd inscribed from their past lives.
...

Too true, but at least they'd have had to "earn" the scrolls in the first place. I haven't minded having to find the level 8-9 spells from my latest Wizard TR.


...
3) Wizards (and all other casters, now that I think about it) would demand some way to craft wands and scrolls.
...

I'm sure I've seen this request before. Not sure how I feel about it - I doubt I'd spend XP to craft them, though.


...
4) People with no money to buy the overpriced scrolls/wands would be forced to chest farm.

This is the key point, actually - before this change could be made, Turbine would really need to adjust the content to account for this loss to avoid screwing over the newer folks.

There's no argument in my mind that this would make the game harder.

[V_mad_jester_V]

3) Wizards (and all other casters, now that I think about it) would demand some way to craft wands and scrolls.



in pnp its an ability, which this should have been an ability to all casters in the first place.

and plus thats not too bad of an idea with the thought, a level 1 caster can make a level 5 wand (if crafting skill permits) but cant use said want till minimal level is achieved or umd is high enough to use

[dterror]

in pnp its an ability, which this should have been an ability to all casters in the first place.

and plus thats not too bad of an idea with the thought, a level 1 caster can make a level 5 wand (if crafting skill permits) but cant use said want till minimal level is achieved or umd is high enough to use



IIRC, not all casters in PnP have the ability to create scrolls, wands, etc because they require feats to do so, and have a minimum level required to take the necessary crafting feats. The creation of the wands/scrolls/staves or what have you is also limited to their caster level and to those spells they already have themselves....thus your level 1 caster will never be able to make a level 5 wand...and shouldn't be able to.

The only 'ability' all wizards have is the knowledge of how to attempt to scribe a scroll they've managed to decipher into their own spell book.

[Havok.cry]

Fleshy sorcs would cease to exist, and every umd class would be devalued.

I would be extremely opposed to this, the reason: one of the biggest reasons I like this game over any other is that NO class is required for anything. Removing the option of scroll healing yourself would effectivly nuke that aspect of the game for me. Anything that brings the game closer to the point of "wait 30 minutes to an hour for party to form for everything you want to run" aould be an extremely bad move. For me, as I play in the off hours and dislike playing divines, the game would be unplayable.

Also divine players dont need more value, they are instantly accepted by any party leader that hasn't squelched them. No other classes can claim this, almost universaly across all quests.

[Therrias]

4. Devaluing of loot - scrolls found in chests now are the first to be sold to the bartender, and the first to be destroyed when inventory is full. I do get excited when I find Dimension Door scrolls, though.


You actually loot non-rare scrolls?

[V_mad_jester_V]

IIRC, not all casters in PnP have the ability to create scrolls, wands, etc because they require feats to do so, and have a minimum level required to take the necessary crafting feats. The creation of the wands/scrolls/staves or what have you is also limited to their caster level and to those spells they already have themselves....thus your level 1 caster will never be able to make a level 5 wand...and shouldn't be able to.

The only 'ability' all wizards have is the knowledge of how to attempt to scribe a scroll they've managed to decipher into their own spell book.

lets look at this from a ddo stand point.

in pnp, the ability to make armor required skill points, lots of them

trap making required skill points lots of them

they took the core idea and then puta ddo twist on that, crafting wands would be no different

[PopeJual]

We should also stop selling potions because that devalues the potions that we get from chests and broken barrels/boxes/crates. And hirelings devalue human players.

No more cure pots or Cleric/FvS hirelings.

I'm sure that the OP would appreciate that, right? Everything is valuable now!

[PopeJual]

You actually loot non-rare scrolls?

I do. Mostly when I miss click or when I forget that they're not on the rare-scrolls list.

[themoonbreaker]

If we could craft wands and scrolls, I would sign this. But currently it is one of the game balancing plat sinks that keep the economy in check.

[Sonos]

/not signed

I chalk this up as a solution for which there is no problem.

I mean, why in heck would I role a helf, so that the 1/1000 chance I can loot a heal scroll?

There are bigger fish to fry, this one is inedible.

[Cyndrome]

Great idea!

But why stop there. Turbine should get rid of all vendors for the same reason. Chest loot will mean something. Turbine should get rid of rest and rez shrines as well they diminish the value of class abilities and the value of not dying. Also, all loot should be BtC on acquire. And if you die - your character is deleted.

Oh wait I can play permadeath now and do all of those things.

Nevermind.

[Jay203]

. . .

i think the first things to go should be GS and Mnemonic pots... and transform kinetic energy
nothing devalues the limitations of the spell point system like the things mentioned above

[Gawna]

Og, definitely not signed. Sure, make all the healers suck down pots because they can't buy scrolls anymore!

[V_mad_jester_V]

i dunno i kinda wanna see something to this effect but not fully

take out vendors minus general vendor and barkeep. Put in player made shops, where a player buys a space post all their items and set a base price. I know the plausibility of a player ran economy is not there, but it would be cool. heres how it works. You buy a booth and you can put any item you want into that booth and set a price. Players then can click on your booth *accessible in any house* and browse through the ares. Rather then visiting several booths you got a one stop shop (much like auction house without auction house fees) beginner players can sell to general vendors till they have enough plat to buy a small booth (cap of 25-items?) and can eventually buy bigger booths with higher sales. vip has access to all booth sizes for free (incentive), and those who dont wish to rent a booth can opt to buy one from the ddo store (100 tp for a small booth 25 item cap, 200 tp for a medium booth 60 item cap, 300 for a large booth 100 item cap, and 400 for a store unlimited items) if you want to sell your goods fast and get a better booth put your goods up cheap, if you want your **** sitting around for a while put them up for a high dollar amount.

browsing the booths, this will be very similar to browsing the auction house. you get a side bar list with drop down menus and a level min/max option.

Why this wouldnt replace auction house. lets say you find a rare item but you feel you can make 20k plat from it, so you set it at the auction house for 20k plat 25k buyout, this gives you the option of possibly making more money off of it then originally appraised.

why this would be better then simply posting everything at ah. If you want to turn up profits then you dont go to ah, you can sell potions for 25 plat and get 25 plat, rather than the auction house cut being deducted. This booth system is more for basic items then it is for rare items.

again i know this is not a feasible idea but it would be cool, but gotta factor in player greed >.>

personally greed factors removed i sold a 1 mil pp epic scroll for 25k. why??!?!?!?!?! cuz rather than be greedy and ask for top dollar i sell for cheap so that my future group mates can be well equipped thats why. heck im not using that scroll and none of my guildies needed it so why not? but thats also how many like minded players would run their shop and make money, while the top dollar players are turning to auction house cuz they cant simply afford shop upkeep or business is bad

[V_mad_jester_V]

oh and they can still vendor trash stuff to barkeep and general vendor, so not too much damage would be done by this system, maybe keep the arrow vendor around also.

[OzmarDDO]

And to illustrate my point, here's an Order of the Stick comic :D

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

Ok, I was totally against this idea until you linked the OotS comic. Now I'm on board. If you link OotS, you must be cool and therefore whatever idea you had must be good.

\signed

-Ozmar the Easily Persuaded

[Phidius]

You actually loot non-rare scrolls?

I'm a sucker for the Loot-All button... until I get the "Your inventory is full", in which case I toss scrolls first.




...
2. Spell point balancing - the ability to carry mutiple stacks of scrolls has caused Turbine to develop content that presumes that people have them.
...

Og, definitely not signed. Sure, make all the healers suck down pots because they can't buy scrolls anymore!

Sounds like you agree with me that Turbine has developed content that presumes people have them. This idea wouldn't fly well if Turbine continued to base their content on the idea that healers have several hundred Heal scrolls on them.

I would have no problem with Turbine adding a cool-down on Mneumonic pots, now that you mention it.


Ok, I was totally against this idea until you linked the OotS comic. Now I'm on board. If you link OotS, you must be cool and therefore whatever idea you had must be good.

\signed

-Ozmar the Easily Persuaded

http://www.morethings.com/fan/simpsons/images/excellent.jpg

[Tshober]

I actually like this idea a lot. But I am realist enough to know that it has no prayer of ever being implemented. People want the easy I win options. They don't want to be dependent on other players or on their own resourcefulness. They just want to be able to quickly buy everything they might ever need to win in bulk and head out to "adventure".

so

/signed

in principal

[Sonos]

I actually like this idea a lot. But I am realist enough to know that it has no prayer of ever being implemented. People want the easy I win options. They don't want to be dependent on other players or on their own resourcefulness. They just want to be able to quickly buy everything they might ever need to win in bulk and head out to "adventure".

so

/signed

in principal

I have /not signed this and have not changed my mind, but you bring up a good point of virtually unlimited resources.

There is a game that I won't mention where you group up on a boat in the water. At this time you can only take so many pots, rez feathers, so many spears, basically, so many expendables, this was a neat concept I will admit.

Having said that, how many Elite-EE LoB's will be run when divines have to loot heal scrolls? My guess would be closer to 0.

If you've earned the plat, you've earned the right to buy some magic.

[Tshober]

If you've earned the plat, you've earned the right to buy some magic.

I would agree with this, if DDO made it even a tiny bit hard to accumulate a ton of plat. But it is totally trivial to accumulate more plat than a character can hold in DDO. When I moved to my current server a couple of years ago, I had 2.5 million plat by the time my first character on the server was level 7! And I didn't get it from a crazy lucky drop. I got it by farming and selling collectables on the AH. Granted I was trying to make plat so I could start a guild and not trying to level up fast, but any newb could have done the same if they were willing to farm a little.

No other MMO I have ever played makes it so ridiculously easy to accumulate a ton of money as DDO does. And the realtively low cap on how much plat you can hold (a bit over 4 mill) makes it almost imperative that you blow it on something.

In any case, thanks for the respectful, if disagreeing, post.

[Phidius]

I actually like this idea a lot. But I am realist enough to know that it has no prayer of ever being implemented. People want the easy I win options. They don't want to be dependent on other players or on their own resourcefulness. They just want to be able to quickly buy everything they might ever need to win in bulk and head out to "adventure".

so

/signed

in principal

Aye, I agree with you. Doesn't stop me from dreaming, though.


...Having said that, how many Elite-EE LoB's will be run when divines have to loot heal scrolls? My guess would be closer to 0.
...

Maybe I need to find a different font - no one seems to have read this part.


...
2. Spell point balancing - the ability to carry mutiple stacks of scrolls has caused Turbine to develop content that presumes that people have them.
...

I don't know about you, but my divines hate standing around tossing Heal scrolls. But as long as people toss 'em like rice at a wedding, Turbine will continue to balance the quests/raids around that fact.

[Gawna]

i dunno i kinda wanna see something to this effect but not fully

take out vendors minus general vendor and barkeep. Put in player made shops, where a player buys a space post all their items and set a base price. I know the plausibility of a player ran economy is not there, but it would be cool. heres how it works. You buy a booth and you can put any item you want into that booth and set a price. Players then can click on your booth *accessible in any house* and browse through the ares. Rather then visiting several booths you got a one stop shop (much like auction house without auction house fees) beginner players can sell to general vendors till they have enough plat to buy a small booth (cap of 25-items?) and can eventually buy bigger booths with higher sales. vip has access to all booth sizes for free (incentive), and those who dont wish to rent a booth can opt to buy one from the ddo store (100 tp for a small booth 25 item cap, 200 tp for a medium booth 60 item cap, 300 for a large booth 100 item cap, and 400 for a store unlimited items) if you want to sell your goods fast and get a better booth put your goods up cheap, if you want your **** sitting around for a while put them up for a high dollar amount.

browsing the booths, this will be very similar to browsing the auction house. you get a side bar list with drop down menus and a level min/max option.

Why this wouldnt replace auction house. lets say you find a rare item but you feel you can make 20k plat from it, so you set it at the auction house for 20k plat 25k buyout, this gives you the option of possibly making more money off of it then originally appraised.

why this would be better then simply posting everything at ah. If you want to turn up profits then you dont go to ah, you can sell potions for 25 plat and get 25 plat, rather than the auction house cut being deducted. This booth system is more for basic items then it is for rare items.

again i know this is not a feasible idea but it would be cool, but gotta factor in player greed >.>

personally greed factors removed i sold a 1 mil pp epic scroll for 25k. why??!?!?!?!?! cuz rather than be greedy and ask for top dollar i sell for cheap so that my future group mates can be well equipped thats why. heck im not using that scroll and none of my guildies needed it so why not? but thats also how many like minded players would run their shop and make money, while the top dollar players are turning to auction house cuz they cant simply afford shop upkeep or business is bad

Wat?

If I don't want AH tax taken out of in game funds, I have to pay real money for a stall? Uh, no thanks.

[Matuse]

You actually loot non-rare scrolls?

I loot everything. On my TRs I loot masterwork weapons from korthos chests.

More platinum > less platinum. Under all circumstances.

[xveganrox]

I loot everything. On my TRs I loot masterwork weapons from korthos chests.

More platinum > less platinum. Under all circumstances.

More times wasted dropping **** that you looted from your inventory to make space for higher value **** = less platinum.


As for OP - this is a horrible idea. It would completely devalue UMD, would prevent many builds from being self-sufficient or able to solo, and would vastly widen the gap between "self-healing" (Divines/WF arcanes) and non-self-healing while also making it more expensive to play the former (pot-wise).

/not signed * 1000

[captain1z]

If we could craft wands and scrolls, I would sign this. But currently it is one of the game balancing plat sinks that keep the economy in check.

Id say crafting is another.
If the crafting system would allow creation of wands and scrolls, Id say go ahead, remove them all.
I think we r heading in that direction anyway. Prices set by players would eventually balance out.
Those who sell the ingredients and those who sell the end product would squeeze the users hard but lower prices when players just stop buying.

Not oppossed to it and this half and half system we have now only confuses new players.

[Phidius]

...
As for OP - this is a horrible idea. It would completely devalue UMD
...

There are those who would say that UMD needs to be devalued. Personally, I'd rather that the other skills got some loving, but for the life of me have absolutely no idea how to make them as valuable as UMD currently is.

The easiest solution, of course, is to devalue UMD.


...
, would prevent many builds from being self-sufficient or able to solo, and would vastly widen the gap between "self-healing" (Divines/WF arcanes) and non-self-healing
...

You make it sound like Divines and WF arcanes are the only self healers out there.

Rangers? Paladins? Halflings? Monks? Artificers?

Besides, I'm not saying to remove the scrolls/wands from the game, just the vendors that have an unlimited supply on hand.


...

while also making it more expensive to play the former (pot-wise).

/not signed * 1000

Sigh - 3rd times the charm. Or counting the OP, 4th...


...
2. Spell point balancing - the ability to carry mutiple stacks of scrolls has caused Turbine to develop content that presumes that people have them.
...

Yes, the cow left the barn years ago, but it's not too late to invest in a better door. Not with Turbine's willingness to constantly modify old raids to make them relevant in the modern age.

[PopeJual]

There are those who would say that UMD needs to be devalued. Personally, I'd rather that the other skills got some loving, but for the life of me have absolutely no idea how to make them as valuable as UMD currently is.

The easiest solution, of course, is to devalue UMD.

Be careful what you wish for. If Turbine decides to devalue UMD, the way that they'll do it is by dividing the number of skill points available to each class by two or double the DC needed for all skills to do something interesting.

All skills. Not just UMD.

[shadereaper33]

I can honestly say that this is one of the worst ideas I have ever read on these forums. I am a huge fan of self sufficiency, and the ability to buy scrolls is a huge factor in being self sufficient. If scrolls were to be removed from all vendors, it would make me seriously re-evaluate my decision to play this game. I love the fact that any character I make can become self sufficient, and not have to rely on hirelings or divines of questionable intelligence when I want to play the game. Taking out scrolls would severely hurt the game.

/NOT signed.

[Eladiun]

I'd like to see scroll vendors removed completely, as it spoils several important game mechanics.

1. Wizards ability to inscribe scrolls that they find - this is only used with level 8/9 spells, really. All the 1-7 spells can be bought from a vendor before leveling up, and then just select the ones that aren't for sale.

2. Spell point balancing - the ability to carry mutiple stacks of scrolls has caused Turbine to develop content that presumes that people have them.

3. Devaluing of class features - Who cares that Rangers/Paladins/Bards can cast Cure spells? Just splash Rogue/Bard/Arti and use Heal/Reconstruct scrolls. Why slot Teleport/Greater Teleport? They work just as well from scrolls.

4. Devaluing of loot - scrolls found in chests now are the first to be sold to the bartender, and the first to be destroyed when inventory is full. I do get excited when I find Dimension Door scrolls, though.

And to illustrate my point, here's an Order of the Stick comic :D

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

When did the DDO Store hire you to sell more store Pots?


Also, #1 would mostly effect solo players and people in small guilds, big guilds would just do what mine does with 8-9 scrolls and send them to a F2P mule that hold scrolls which can be passed out when needed.

[MRMechMan]

/Not signed


I carry and use heal scrolls often. They are a great source of sp-free healing.

Breaking any UMD/helf build that uses a heal scroll is thoughtless and terrible. Your idea is bad and you should feel bad.

UMD doesn't need devaluing. This game doesn't need less self healing options, it needs more. Buff the other skills, sure.

Nerfing UMD doesn't make this game any better. It would absolutely make it worse. Devaluing your loot? Are you Fking high? Heal scrolls would be so rare that they would be useless as you couldn't muster up a stack of 10 to save your life.


How many heal scrolls have I looted over the course of several years playing? Probably under 50. A heal scroll to use every 3 weeks, oh goodie.

One of the worst ideas I have ever seen posted. I hope no developer reads this and decides to take action. This is exactly the kind of **** that ruins this game.

I wouldn't mind SOME particular scrolls be absent but to do away with them completely is just duncecaptastic.

Make them more expensive if you want but don't make them nonexistant.

If I seem angry in this post it is because I am. That is how bad this suggestion is.

[Davelfus]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html

and this is what would rly happen :)

[xveganrox]

You make it sound like Divines and WF arcanes are the only self healers out there.

Rangers? Paladins? Halflings? Monks? Artificers?

... Rangers and Paladins are divine. Artificers are arcane. And I'm going to assume that the halfling suggestion was sarcastic, because I don't think anyone would really consider suggesting using three feats for a heal clickie...

Also, I forgot to add in my first post - I've been playing DDO for a couple years now and my main is a rogue with high UMD. I've made a point to collect every Mass Heal scroll I find and save it in the bank. Current count is 11. Odds of finding a specific scroll are low - even Dimension Door, a lower level spell (and a scroll that many people had stockpiles of before it disappeared) goes regularly for over 10k a scroll on the AH. Heal scrolls would be worth more than that, and become completely impractical, and a lot of people would quit.

[Xynot2]

remove vendors(excpet crafting suppliers), all item drops and create an all crafted system.

So a wiz would have to get paper, ink, and all spell components to write a scroll to use to scribe to his book.

/sarcasm off

/not signed

You want that- go find a game that has that. DDO may be loosely bbased on DnD but it's still DnD.

[V_mad_jester_V]

Wat?

If I don't want AH tax taken out of in game funds, I have to pay real money for a stall? Uh, no thanks.

or you can pay plat and rent a booth montly, and if your vip your already paying cash so stall comes with vip, and if your ftp and wanna own the stall you can pay for one (thats the only way to make this feasible for turbine. but again it was a fun thought, Do i personally wanna pay real money for a vender stall..hell to the no

[Havok.cry]

While I think the nerfing of vendors is a horrible horrible idea, I am fond of mental exercises, so here is what I would do in this situation:
Calculate maximum possible daily scroll, potion, and wand production output for stormreach based on size of city/population., blah blah blah. Then have each player able to buy that many of each type of scroll from a vendor each day. House jorasco vendors would be able to sell more divine scrolls, pots, and wands due to the focus of that house, house P for bard, sorc, and wiz stuff, house c for arti stuff, and guild vendors output would be based on your guilds population of players able to cast each spell. Players would be able to hit these limits in each major area's vendors (IE house vendors, generic stormreach, guild vendor, amrath, meridia, atraxia, and eveningstar would all have separate limits)

Chest looted consumables that a player vendors, would add to the limits for that day.

[Matuse]

More times wasted dropping **** that you looted from your inventory to make space for higher value **** = less platinum.

I don't run out of space.

[Gawna]

but again it was a fun thought

If you say so.

[V_mad_jester_V]

If you say so.

if i remember right maple story incorporated this concept of player ran shops, and it didnt do to badly. but i only have my brothers word to go on for that

[danotmano1998]

I'd like to see scroll vendors removed completely, as it spoils several important game mechanics.

No, thank you. I'd like to see them stay just the way they are.
There are many points already made in this thread that point nicely to the fallacy of this particular logic.

[PopeJual]

if i remember right maple story incorporated this concept of player ran shops, and it didnt do to badly. but i only have my brothers word to go on for that

My favorite maple story was Maple 12 (http://forums.ddo.com/www.maplesoft.com/).

[parvo]

Biggest design flaw of DDO. Cheap, powerful, unlimited comodity magic. It was a bad idea.

[Urist]

It seems that pretty much all the consternation is about Heal scrolls, and solo'ability.
So introduce Heal potions instead. Job done.

Personally, I find the fact that characters who know the Heal spell are instead using Heal scrolls as a matter of course, to be stupid. It may feel different to those of you for whom it's become "normal", but IMO scroll-healing should be the last resort, not the first.
Is that how it goes in PnP? Running around with stacks of scrolls, and only as a last resort using your slotted spells?

[V_mad_jester_V]

Is that how it goes in PnP? Running around with stacks of scrolls, and only as a last resort using your slotted spells?
ya know, i wonder what this game would be like if it were more like pnp, no enhancements, maybe more core prestige from dm book. and less scrolls/pots

[Tshober]

Biggest design flaw of DDO. Cheap, powerful, unlimited comodity magic. It was a bad idea.

Agreed.

But now that the genie is out of the bottle, there's no way it's going back in. We are forever stuck with it. We have a entire culture of players who think they are elite because they can do elite runs with no cleric. Nevermind that they have a stack of 78 heal scolls (and similar stacks of other scrolls for every occasion). No way are they gonna give up all that awesomeness and go back to actually having to make due with limited resources.

[Cap_Man]

/Not Signed

Bad Idea for anyone who has invested in UMD.

I would not want to rely on crafting nor people selling crafted goods and would probably stop playing if UMD was devauled and I was no longer self sufficient.

[aristarchus1000]

If you don't like scroll vendors, don't use them.

There are people who do that, it is called perma death. It is quite fun.

Otherwise, go find another game, because that horse has left the barn a long time ago.
I have played most of the self healing builds a long time ago, and I enjoy how umd allows me to play the game without waiting to find a "healer“. It is one of the reasons why I am still around playing.

[Certon]

I completely disagree. Don't make the game harder for those of us who like it this way, for someone who is more vocally inclined. I love going to the wiz scroll vendor in the Portable Hole and buying the scrolls I need for my current level.

/not signed

[samthedagger]

I'm on the fence. I could understand perhaps making a few more scrolls and wands unavailable from vendors (like dimension door), but it is a plat sink, which the game needs, and honestly, I do not savor the idea of having to chest farm and save every scroll I find for my wizzy.

[Talias006]

/not signed

I play this game for fun.
The minute it stops being fun for me, I either choose a new server or new character.
So far the fun has not left me for over 6 years here.
Stop trying to ruin the fun I gain from this game by applying a silly notion that scroll/wand vendors ruin THE game.

Also, and I have to point this out, I've been (the/a) main healer for many upper level quests/raids before.
I have rarely needed to use Heal/Raise scrolls to the point where I only carry about 5 of each.

I do not buy Store SP pots, nor do I buy them from AH.
I use those gained in leveling up across all my characters.

I have also rarely ran out of SP during critical moments in quests/raids, upon which popping a major mnemonic pot was the best thing to do.

Basically, what it feels to me is you're begrudging the system into believing that it makes you need to purchase these items.
It really doesn't.
They help, sure, but they are by no means necessary for a super majority of the content found herein.

[Tshober]

I play this game for fun.

Everyone here does. It's just that we all define fun in slightly (and sometimes not so slightly) different ways. Some of us come from old-school games where you couldn't wade into battle with hundreds of pots and scrolls to aid your cause because they just were not available in bulk. You had to make due with limited resources and by relying on your party. I miss those days. I realize we will never go back to them though.

[xveganrox]

Everyone here does. It's just that we all define fun in slightly (and sometimes not so slightly) different ways. Some of us come from old-school games where you couldn't wade into battle with hundreds of pots and scrolls to aid your cause because they just were not available in bulk. You had to make due with limited resources and by relying on your party. I miss those days. I realize we will never go back to them though.

You should start by petitioning them to fix raise dead/resurrection spells, to make them more like old-school DnD rules.

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Casting Time: 1 minute

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Material Component
Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.

[V_mad_jester_V]

You should start by petitioning them to fix raise dead/resurrection spells, to make them more like old-school DnD rules.

Raise Dead
Conjuration (Healing)
Casting Time: 1 minute

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.

Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.

A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be raised. The spell cannot bring back a creature that has died of old age.

Material Component
Diamonds worth a total of least 5,000 gp.
and make this more like pnp o,0 the community would never stand for this, if this game were more like dungeons and dragons people would quit!

to everyone else dont give me the spew that "this is dungeons and dragons". While yes they are using the D&D title, this is FAR from dungeons and dragons. (why you ask?) because the only thing Dungeons and Dragons is the core classes, skills, and feats. I never had the option to select enhancements in PnP. Also the equipment in this game is much more abundant then any other Dungeons and Dragons game, not to mention other D&D games and pnp campaigns i've played through dont offer have this much loot/****. (disable device equipment, devotion equipment.) If people lost more easy button aspects of this game, and have to rely on just character build rather then equipment then i think we would have a riot on our hands.

[xveganrox]

and make this more like pnp o,0 the community would never stand for this, if this game were more like dungeons and dragons people would quit!

to everyone else dont give me the spew that "this is dungeons and dragons". While yes they are using the D&D title, this is FAR from dungeons and dragons. (why you ask?) because the only thing Dungeons and Dragons is the core classes, skills, and feats. I never had the option to select enhancements in PnP. Also the equipment in this game is much more abundant then any other Dungeons and Dragons game, not to mention other D&D games and pnp campaigns i've played through dont offer have this much loot/****. (disable device equipment, devotion equipment.) If people lost more easy button aspects of this game, and have to rely on just character build rather then equipment then i think we would have a riot on our hands.

Or more likely everyone would just quit because the game would suck and be pretty much impossible.

I was being sarcastic. If every time you got raised or resurrected you lost a level or two points of con, your character would be level 1 and have a con of like 4 by now. It wouldn't be fun.

[Tshober]

You should start by petitioning them to fix raise dead/resurrection spells, to make them more like old-school DnD rules.

Not sure why you directed this at me. I conceeded that this is a battle my side already lost long ago.

But now that you mention it, yes , resurrections should be more traumatic than they are now and there should be a chance to fail.

The OP seems willing to fight this fight and I admire his courage, but I gave up long ago. I am only pointing out that he is not as insane as some here think he is for wanting there to be fewer easy "I WIN" options in the game. I have no intention of trying to persuade the devs that this kind of change should happen. That is a lost cause if there ever was one.

[gphysalis]

Nevermind that they have a stack of 78 heal scolls (and similar stacks of other scrolls for every occasion).

A single stack of heal scrolls?
I have 7 stacks in my inventory...

[xveganrox]

A single stack of heal scrolls?
I have 7 stacks in my inventory...

I carry five. Then again, I'm a rogue :P

[blerkington]

Hi,

Not signed

My main get a lot of mileage out of his UMD skill, and I would like to keep it that way.

That skill would be heavily 'devalued' if these changes were to be made, as would classes which get UMD as a class skill. The 'devalued' argument is very subjective, and it also works both ways.

As someone who also sometimes plays a cleric, I'd very much like to continue to use heal and resurrection scrolls, as well as wands at lower levels, to help with SP conservation. Healing, especially in PUGs, is miserable enough as it is without these tools being taken away.

If you don't like these parts of the game, you are of course free to stop using them yourself.

Thanks.

[Tshober]

If you don't like these parts of the game, you are of course free to stop using them yourself.

You don't need to stop if you never started. ;)

Been called gimp, noob, and every other derogitory term you can imagine for it too. But that's just the MMO world we live in these days. People who prefer to actually challenge themselves are viewed as holding everyone else back and playing the game "wrong".

[Xynot2]

Remove all vendors, all item drops except crafting mats and all forms of currency then go to a 100% craft system. Seriously. When have you ever played a DnD game where vendors were actually useful for more than selling junk and identifying magical items?

/sarcasm off

[Goregnash]

I sacrificed quite a bit of skill points to work up my UMD and the versitility it provides is balanced very very well.

You make it sound like Rangers and other dps classes who have healing spells can main heal quests. You show me a Ranger healing a quest and Ill show you a novelty act with dead party members. Even with Alchemists Crown, my healing is at best self sustaining in a non elite, non epic quest setting. On boss fights I will use it rarely between mass heals from the raid clerics just to keep me afloat.

UMD provides me with a means of somewhat reliable travel, a means of somewhat improved survivability and a little peace of mind. These benifits are conviences at best, just useful enough to take as a primary skill and there are not nearly as many items that buff UMD like there are Ranger and Rogue native skills like search, Disable Traps, Spot, Lock Pick.... etc etc.

[Goregnash]

You don't need to stop if you never started. ;)

Been called gimp, noob, and every other derogitory term you can imagine for it too. But that's just the MMO world we live in these days. People who prefer to actually challenge themselves are viewed as holding everyone else back and playing the game "wrong".

LOL, you want a challenge? Play a pure archer Ranger.

[Havok.cry]

Those claiming stacks of scrolls are un-pnp-ish never saw any of my characters. Bags of holding full of scroll, and an endless scrollcase on every single one. And yes I used those scrolls more than my prepped spells. My prepped spells were for the ah **** moments were something had to be done and it had to succeed. People played very different types of PnP games, so don't kid yourself that all pnp games were like your's. We also had barrels of potion refills (house rule, but equivalent to a pot stack), and casks of alchemists fire and acid ( very nice on beholders and for some reason gives purple worms heartburn.

[Phidius]

...
The OP seems willing to fight this fight and I admire his courage, but I gave up long ago.
...

Not really, I was just curious as to how other people feel about this topic. Apparently, the majority of forumites enjoy carrying stacks of scrolls and the monopoly of UMD.

Not a problem, I've played this way too for a long time, and I don't mind continuing.

The only thing that really bugs me is how many people are willing to post in a thread when they haven't actually read the original post. I get tired of reposting the same thing over and over...


...
I am only pointing out that he is not as insane as some here think he is
...

My wife begs to differ :D

[KillEveryone]

/not signed.

I like my heal scrolls on my bard.

I'd like my rogue to be able to use heal scrolls.

I'd like to be able to scribe any spell into scroll form.

The whole point of scrolls is so that I don't have to memorize spells, especially true if you get the same exact effect that you do with a spell.

I want DDoor in the vendor.

I want all scrolls in the vendors.

My cleric uses scrolls so that I can use SP for other stuff beyond keeping the party alive. NO WAY IN THE 9 HELLS DO I WISH TO GIVE THIS UP!!!!!!!!

I don't care to play your way.

If you don't like scrolls, don't use them. It is that simple. Don't force your play onto me because I don't care for your idea of fun.

[blerkington]

Hi,

Tshober, I think you're making a false equivalence here.

Some of the harder content, in particular certain raids, pretty much requires healers to use scrolls on the main tank if they wish to conserve spell points.

I wouldn't say that the people doing this content aren't challenging themselves. Maybe they prefer not to bankrupt themselves buying mnemonic pots, or maybe they think using no potions is a more worthwhile challenge than avoiding scroll use.

There are different ways to challenge yourself in the game, but that doesn't mean that people who are not doing things the way you think they should be done aren't challenging themselves.

Of course, if you are completing the most difficult content in the game, as a healer, without using potions or scrolls, I apologise in advance. Don't forget to include some screenshots in your reply if you bother with it.

Thanks.


You don't need to stop if you never started. ;)

Been called gimp, noob, and every other derogitory term you can imagine for it too. But that's just the MMO world we live in these days. People who prefer to actually challenge themselves are viewed as holding everyone else back and playing the game "wrong".

[Rian]

LOL, you want a challenge? Play a pure archer Ranger.

I fail to see the dificulty, as I have been playing an archer for...

errr...

how many years has the Titan been out again?

[Bernaise]

The thing about DDO to me is that it occasionally highlights just how poorly portions of the PnP RPG were thought out and implemented. In this case, and I would agree somewhat with the OP. What should be reworked is the impact that UMD has on D&D and subsequently DDO. I suspect UMD either goes way beyond the scope of original intent, or the designer is a munchkin catering to other munchkins to sell books.

[aa7threalm]

what they need to do is-- healing kits

just making up numbers as i go

heal kits = 1d20 roll to heal so you can get 1-20 health point
heal skill= (+1 hp or +2 hp) for every heal skill point

so norm char max out heal skill (1-20)+23skill + modifiers = decent in between battle healing so say 60 hps 6 sec cool down on kits bam,

saves cleric some mana in between fights,
no heal as you go - wizards

of course ad -50% for warforge bam balanced lolz