How would YOU fix/ change post U11 raids?

[Captain_Wizbang]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

[Crazyfruit]

More puzzles.

Cut monster health back by half or more, add 3 puzzles to each fight people have to be doing while it's going on.

Finishing some can temporarily buff the party, spawn monsters or weaken the enemy for a lil variety between raids. And maybe some pachinko. Everyone loves pachinko.

[Qzipoun]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks

[Thrudh]

I dislike the "everyone group up close together, and swing at the big raid boss who barely moves while everyone get mass cures" strategy.

I'd make raids harder not by giving that one boss more hp and fort, but by introducing more trash or lieutenant monsters...

Force us to split the party up... Make self-sufficiency as important as DPS. I think Part 2 of the Shroud beefed up would a be a great raid. Or make us split into 2 or 3 groups like some of the quests do, in order to pull levers at the same time...

Three groups of 4 players makes for a very different party make-up than one big group of 12 all standing still.

[WangChi]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

Change the Boss AI instead of the HP/fort. Have the big bad whatever (Harry/Suulo/CAD/etc) go after the healers and casters first, just like players do, but have them do it in a way that is just as predictable as the players. When you run eClaw, you whack the healing scorpions first if they are there, then work on the ambushers/guardian. *IF* the boss notices that the fighter whacking him in the ankles is being healed, he goes after the one that healed him, OR, if the boss notices that his support team (read: trash mobs) are dancing under disco balls instead of attacking the enemies, he goes after the ones casting disco balls.

THAT would require some serious tactics, not just "take improved sunder - problem solved". HP/Fort increase just means more work/pots/resources used by healers, not the real tactics used to beat the raids.

[Vint]

The biggest issue I have encountered is the lag. If you get rid of that and put out an instructional video at the start of the quest explaining how important it is to invest con on your toon, it should be easy.

[redoubt]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks

This.

[Angelus_dead]

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.
There's a lot I'd change, but as to that specific thing where they raised boss Fortification on Elite: Remove increased Fortification from bosses on higher difficulty settings.
Instead, the higher settings of those bosses can get a percentage absorption to damage, such as 10-20%, as if they were using Shield Mastery.
Effects which have a Fortification debuff (like Improved Sunder, new Destruction, and Condemnation) also debuff that percentage absorption.

Boom, simple: The higher difficulty bosses are still harder to hurt and there is still an extra incentive to utilize certain debuffs, but the extra defense is applied equally to all melee classes, instead of unfairly singling out Rogues.

[maddmatt70]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks

No thanks. Alot of people left this game because the old raids were too easy. The new raids versions is not necessarily better, but at least they are less easy. I think some of the hp increases were totally warranted. I think upping the dragon some hps is actually a good idea, I just think the trash should have been made tougher and the dragon a little bit less increased hp for e.g. Seriously epic dq2 and epic dragon were snooze fests last mod and they are supposed to be well actually epic. Normal has not been changed too much so players can still do that difficult for Tower, Shroud, Reaver, Abbot, etc...

[redoubt]

No thanks. Alot of people left this game because the old raids were too easy. The new raids versions is not necessarily better, but at least they are less easy. I think some of the hp increases were totally warranted. I think upping the dragon some hps is actually a good idea, I just think the trash should have been made tougher and the dragon a little bit less increased hp for e.g. Seriously epic dq2 and epic dragon were snooze fests last mod and they are supposed to be well actually epic. Normal has not been changed too much so players can still do that difficult for Tower, Shroud, Reaver, Abbot, etc...

I agree with you often and find your posts frequently informative, but I have to disagree with you here.

I was away almost 2 months. I returned a couple weeks after U11 went live. Prior to my 2 months away, I played 90% of my time with a group of about 9 people. 4 of them quit after U11. I also have not seen many of the group of folks in our sister guild that I would run with on occassion.

[Xenostrata]

In a perfect world, I'd keep the changes to hp, reduce fort to a maximum of 50% on a boss, and add more tactical based mechanics to the raids - for instance, if you wanted to keep people from piking Reaver's, have a section of the ceiling be covered in spike traps, and the section moves around randomly - if you are under it when he reverses gravity, then tough.

Other ideas -
Give hard/elite harry/horoth/suulo an AoE disjunction, and on elite they will follow it up with an Energy Drain and/or PW:K after 4-6 seconds (rebuff dw, fast)
All raids would have an sp regen mechanic - not as powerful as Reaver's, but not as weak as Shroud. The ending variable on whether or not a group finishes should not be the healers' willingness to chug pots.
Velah's Claws are now Orange named, and capable of being danced/held/fascinated. However, while they are alive Velah has an aura that grants her 25% elemental and light absorption per claw, 10% increased damage per claw, and gives anyone nearby (in front of the pillars) a 10% penalty to healing or repair spells for every claw still living.
The CAD can now summon non-named flying abishai into its tent, and does so at 75%, 50%, and 25% health.
The demon queen no longer trips things merely by moving over them, but instead has a trip attack that she likes to use quite frequently. Any attempts of "balling up" will simply lead to everyone being tripped. Also, the blade barriers she summons now do significantly more damage and move much faster, but do not cover an entire row and can be evaded by a skillful player.
There is now a 9th portal in HoX, found on the ceiling of the center room. When Xyzzy hits 50%, it will spawn 1/2/3 orange named and 0/1/2 red named beholders.
In VoD, the room has become about twice as large as before and all convenient holes in the walls have been removed. Suulo now can chain people, and once chained are drawn into the center of the room onto spike traps. Running against the direction of the chain will halt all movement.

Anyway, I just liked the idea of having new and interesting mechanics added to the quests instead of just making all the old numbers bigger.

[Callavan]

Make the final encounter in the raid a dance fight between your raid group and the boss and his minions. Wait... would that give the halflings an unfair advantage?

[munificence]

Roll back the old raids to pre-U11.

Introduce new epic content, such as Gianthold, that is much harder, and is balanced around having gear from the older raids. Then, go back and fix the drop rates so people don't have to grind 100+ runs without completing certain epic items *cough* desert epics *cough*.

[Chai]

Make raid encounters in more stages where its not just a DPS off.

Example:

Imagine the ending of the madness series part 1, with the mind flayer fight, only as a raid. The pods have to be hit a few times before they burst. The sacs have alot of HP and have to be beat down, and it gets harder and harder with trash spawns the longer it takes, like hound.

[llyrnionfor]

Make them unpredictable.

Forget about the "Repetitive Velah Breath", or the "Yawning Harry Fireball". Forget about Suulo doing "this on x% health" and "that on y% health". Give them less HP and less Fort, and more diversity.

ddowiki says Harry has Hold Monster, Mass and Greater Dispel, Mass. Hold has a Will save (after Dispel gets rid of those pesky FoMs). Harry is surrounded by melee types, whose Will saves can probably be beaten by a kobold shaman apprentice with a wand of Hold Person. Harry must be on a pay-per-use scheme, because I've never seen a held toon in Shroud.

Wanna have fun? Have him try to charm the healers.

Give the bosses more varied strategies. This would be a good start.

You know what I'd really love? To be able to complete quests by means other than combat. I know, that's asking too much. So I say make them unpredictable.

One last thought. You know the thing about lag? Don't look at it as lag, just imagine all the mobs/bosses have Time Stop :)

[Jendrak]

After reading a seeral responses I think there is something that needs to be considered when Makeing suggestions on how to fix something. It has been stated before that mob AI is one of limitations of the engine ddo uses. Translation....the smarter the mobs get the worse the systems responds. So while agree that giving the bosses better AI in regards to what spells they cast and who the go after this just isn't a pratcial solution at this time.

I think that the largest issues is that Turnine changed too much too fast. Had they just added fort to the bosses, released it, and then see how players respond or more importantly how it affects game play. From here you make a second adjustment, and the increased dmg, and see what happens, etc, etc.

I would suggest trying several builds of Lamma to find the right combination of HP, fort, and increased dmg from bosses that provides the appropriate mix. The idea being contemt that will still challenge us and possibly exclude a minority of players while not having it cranked up so bad that only the upper echelon of players are allowed to attempt it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I feel the need to point out yet again.... that "We" have 100% Fort, why shouldn't the raid boss? The guy who is way above our lvl.....

And the only problem I see with it is that it cripples (most) Rogues. (or it makes everyone think it does anyway)

Raiding is such an important part of most players game time.... the boss fight is a big deal.
Making one class feel gimped against the raid boss is just not fair IMO.

And giving weapons, or feat choices that allow "some" Rogues to be effective against raid bosses..."if" they choose the right feats, gear...etc....
is "not" the right answer.

In the future, I just think they should give lvl 21+ Rogues the ability to get SA damage against Fort. (not against SA Immune monsters though)


I wish I knew a better answer.
No matter how you change the raids....the boss fight is a big deal. Gimping one class against the boss is wrong.
Feats and weps is not the way to fix it.

Maybe make a normal Sunder attack reduce fort. Everyone can do that.

Maybe make a successful Sunder be a crit and get SA damage (but not against immune monsters) Plus reduces fort for a short time...

Actually the more I think about it, I really like this idea.

Make a successful Sunder Attack get full crit and SA damage. And make it slightly reduce fort for a time.

But I also say that go ahead and give the bosses 100% fort on elite.

[Jendrak]

Not trying to turn this into a heavy fort debate but there is a second affect of heavy fort on bosses besides rogues getting hosed. You are effectively adding an undetermined HP boost to a boss by giving them heavy fort or any fort for that matter.

For every crit that fort blocks that extra dmg is being (for lack of a better word) absorbed. Wether this is done through heavy fort (players) or massive hp (mobs and bosses) the effect is the same. The issue came about when bosses were given both heavy fort and insane boost to hp on harder settings and now fights that used to take 5 mins are taking 20 or more.

This is why I say the answer lies somewhere in between and the current implementation needs to be tweaked.

[Mackem]

1. Roll back U11 raid changes and do not waste time/resources ~rebalancing~ old content again.

2. Work on new content.

3. Profit.

[cdemeritt]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

Change nothing... The new weapons will make things easy again... just gonna take time... Kinda like the first VoD's before Everyone had MinII weapons...

[sirgog]

I agree with you often and find your posts frequently informative, but I have to disagree with you here.

I was away almost 2 months. I returned a couple weeks after U11 went live. Prior to my 2 months away, I played 90% of my time with a group of about 9 people. 4 of them quit after U11. I also have not seen many of the group of folks in our sister guild that I would run with on occassion.

I was in a guild that fell apart, losing people to slow attrition because there were absolutely no challenges left in the game. When you've mastered everything, what incentive is there to improve characters? Yet we weren't considered a powergamer guild at all.

We lost people to RIFT, to WoW, to EVE, or to anywhere else that they could find content that wasn't autowin after 5 or 6 runs.

I'm sure many of them would come back to DDO for the new raids.

[cdemeritt]

I was in a guild that fell apart, losing people to slow attrition because there were absolutely no challenges left in the game. When you've mastered everything, what incentive is there to improve characters? Yet we weren't considered a powergamer guild at all.

We lost people to RIFT, to WoW, to EVE, or to anywhere else that they could find content that wasn't autowin after 5 or 6 runs.

I'm sure many of them would come back to DDO for the new raids.

Yep, been there... Anyone Remember The Infamous Flaming Vagabonds? I hear they are still around... but there was a time when they where "the" Thelanis guild... and then 1 year with no new content... It got to the point where you couldn't go to the guild webpage without seeing "So Bored, So long...." thread. It is sad to watch. People need challenge, I'm just really upset that so many, instead of stepping up their game, choose to complain it is too hard.


Failure is an option, and when it is no longer possible to fail there is no reason to continue...

[~Cavalier9999]

A few basic ideas.

The loot drops should scale up on hard and elite. The new Weapons Shipment is a good example.

Epic scroll, shard and seal drops should be significantly increased and a guaranteed selection on the 20th completion should be added.

Variety in the difficulty of Epics is a good thing. At least some should be accessible by a first life toon with full raid gear and event epic gear. Others can be designed for veteran players with multi-TR'd heavily epic-geared toons.

[sirgog]

Variety in the difficulty of Epics is a good thing. At least some should be accessible by a first life toon with full raid gear and event epic gear. Others can be designed for veteran players with multi-TR'd heavily epic-geared toons.

/this, although I'd extend the lower end further to include first life toons with nothing better than tier 2 Shroud items. Which is exactly what half the Carnival chain is tuned for.

[Imnotapotmachine]

Roll back the old raids like pre U11 it's just a question of fairplay for all the new players.

New epic packs should be new hard challenge.

[rayworks]

Everyone here,(almost) has posted about the HP/Fort changes to end fights.

Adding a ridiculous amount of HP is a joke, and the fort issue was over done.

SO... How would YOU fix/ change end fights in post U11 raids?

Put them back to how they were. Post U11 its become basically impossible for a non-epic equipped character to get the equipment necessary to succeed in epics. I simply can't get the equipment at this point because you have to do epics to get the mats. But to get in the epic you have to get into the raid group, which is basically not gonna happen because of the hp/sp bar and the tendency of raid groups to only group with people who already know the raid. Vicious circle that kills the casual gamer.

[Rawel_San]

Put them back to how they were. Post U11 its become basically impossible for a non-epic equipped character to get the equipment necessary to succeed in epics. I simply can't get the equipment at this point because you have to do epics to get the mats. But to get in the epic you have to get into the raid group, which is basically not gonna happen because of the hp/sp bar and the tendency of raid groups to only group with people who already know the raid. Vicious circle that kills the casual gamer.

Neither the hp nor the sp bar is significantly upgraded by epic items. Best case you get 10 extra hp from
an epic item with superior false life and an extra 20 (if you were at odd con) for a +7 con item.
There are no epic items which have anything better then archmagi.

You can get an extra 20 hp and 27-40ish extra sp from +2 exceptional con+casting stat on ToD rings
but that's about it.

The difference between an epic+tod ring geared character and a non epic non tod ring geared character is in the
most extreme scenario 50hp and 50 sp. The sp no one will even notice and a 50 hp difference won't make anyone
decline you from the group.

The one thing that epic items do provide in greater abundance is extra dps and easier slotting. They help you
get the max hp for your toon while getting max AC and max dps, they don't really give you extra hp.

The main thing you need to get into an epic raid is reasonable hp (500ish), and the ability to use your head and
your keyboard/mic to COMMUNICATE with people. Often that includes saying I have not done this yet but I can listen
and I can ask questions when I don't understand something. Few things are as irritating as a player that
won't listen/won't own up to being new/won't speak up when he doesn't understand something. That's what makes
raid leaders not take puggers/people they don't know. There's only so many times I'm willing to have to work like crazy
to save a eVon6 run that went south because someone starts beating on the ellies/mephits or because someone gets
killed right off by a DBF since they have no evasion and jumped onto fire base ahead of the bard or because
people can't read and run to ice when they should have been on fire and fire doesn't have enough dps. It just becomes
easier to 6man in guild and have a flawless run then to pug the spots and wipe (arguably this was before U11 (the 6 man)
and the healer did use 1 pot).

[oradafu]

Just a few thoughts...

If the Devs don't like level 20s making lower level raids too easy in groups and older players want something more difficult, then there's a solution that won't punish at-level first lifers: make them Epic. I'm pretty sure the amount of time it took to tinker with all the raids would have been about the same as making them Epic, except making Epic items (if they are even bothering to do this anymore). Especially since the Devs aren't even bothering to adjust the drop rate of items. Now the problem with this suggest would be two raids because they are "chain" raids: Shroud and ToD. ToD on Elite was already a hard raid, so there was little need to adjust it. So that leaves the Shroud... but since it was the most ran raid to begin with, there was little reason to change it, especially since there is still no incentive to run on a higher degree of difficulty since the loot is the same across the board.

If the Devs don't like players soloing Epics, then the solution wasn't to punish melees but to make it harder for the classes that could solo it. Adding Fort just punished melees, since Fort doesn't affect the caster spells. Additionally, the increase of HP+Fort just means that melees will have broken items and bigger repair bill, something that casters don't usually worry about. By proxy, the healers got hit pretty bad with these changes and now nearly everyone is suffering from this. Instead of making things harder on melees by increasing HP and Fort, energy absorption should have been introduced into boss fights instead. Energy Absorption would have hit all players across the board since melee damage from effects would have dropped also. Additionally, even though Energy Absorption would have affected casters more than melees, casters have several things to compensate for their drop in DPS (Arcane Lore items, various Spell Crit Damage and Spell Damage Amplification enhancements, Potency items, the Eardweller, etc.). Compare this the lack of things that can be used to bring down Fort...and the crown jewel to help Rogues (the class hurt the most by Fort) hasn't worked since it was introduced about a year ago: Opportunist.

[Ruphus]

I personally think the Sor'jek fight in Stealer of Souls would be a good starting point on how to make raids a LOT tougher.

Example ToD:

During the final fight, Horoth will call for his guards, but instead of it always being 2-4 Orthons, sometimes you will get a couple Succubi that will Irrestiable Dance, AE Nuke, Disjunction amongst other things. Sometimes you will get Tieflings with Huge heals, as in, enough to heal Sulu or Horoth 5-15%% every 20 seconds. Maybe even have some "Stalwart Orthon Defenders" appear, that grant both Sulu and Horoth 100% Fort and DR 15/- Until they are defeated.

And for crying out loud, make the adds meaningful, don't just spawn 2 normal, weak, trash-ish Orthons and a healer. Lets see a full party come out, 1 Succubus, 2 Tiefling Clerics, 4 Orthon Defendes and a couple nasty, hard hitting Bearded Devils that teleport and attack all kinds of random people. And these critters need to be minibosses, aka immune to Wail, Holds, etc etc.

High Difficulties = More adds on each "Call for Help"

Example Shroud:

Part 4 = This has been mentioned before, but have the blades come in at a percentage of Harry's life, not just based on a timer. The faster you kill him, the faster (and harder) they come in. Make it so he ALWAYS teleports away at 75%, 50%, and 25%, leaving you to deal with a new set of adds, healing gnolls and more.

Part 5 = Same as part 4, at 75%, 50%, 25% have Harry disappear to "Bask in the Eclipse" while his Minions get rezzed and join back in the fight. Each time Harry comes down, his damage increases by 100%, going from 50ish to 100ish to 200ish hits on normal, and worse on Hard/Elite.


Example Velah (VoN6)

Only thing I can really say here is the whole encounter needs a revamp. It's a dragon for crying out loud, why would ANY dragon sit there and take it when they have wings, claws, bites, tail slaps AND a breath weapon to use. Again, the encounter is really neat until you get to Velah, but it's horrible how she doesn't move, and there is this "Ok, I'm gonna breath, you guys hide and then come back to beat on me some more" horribly done mechanic.

Make Velah move, make her platform about 25% larger all the way around, and remove the ability for pillars to block her breath attack. Make her also perform a tail slap that does over 200 damage, AE on a large arc behind her, on Epic and also requires a DC 50 Reflex check to avoid being knocked down. Her Breath weapon should come with little warning, literally, you should see her head rare back and nostrils flare and you got about 4 seconds to get outta the way, but it should be able to be evaded with "Evasion" The breath weapon should also target someone randomly in front of her or on her sides and should be a large enough AE to hit about 33% of her front or side circumference. This will force people to spread out around her, and deal with her wing attacks, tail attacks and bites/claws as well, and also will force people to keep moving, not just "hiding" behind a pillar until it's safe.

Then you bring out her minions, the fire reavers, but beef them up a bit, as I stated above with the ToD fight, make them tougher and also give Velah some benefits until they are taken out.


I'll add more later if/when I think of something

[Xioden]

What they could have done with Shroud:

Part 4: Reduce his hit points a bit, Make Blades % based rather than time based, have it happen 2-3 times total and harry flies away when the blades and trash spawn. You have to deal with healers each of those 2-3 times, and add a little bit more trash between waves (maybe a red-name or two so web/dance/wail doesn't trivialize it).

Part 5: Again, lower hit points. Harry gets a stacking +5% hp and 5% fort for every 30-60 seconds he's basking in the eclipse (to discourage "saving" a mob). At 75/50/25% Harry resurrects 2/3/4 lieutenants, possibly basking in the eclipse again while they're alive.

[oradafu]

Example Shroud:

Part 4 = This has been mentioned before, but have the blades come in at a percentage of Harry's life, not just based on a timer. The faster you kill him, the faster (and harder) they come in. Make it so he ALWAYS teleports away at 75%, 50%, and 25%, leaving you to deal with a new set of adds, healing gnolls and more.

Part 5 = Same as part 4, at 75%, 50%, 25% have Harry disappear to "Bask in the Eclipse" while his Minions get rezzed and join back in the fight. Each time Harry comes down, his damage increases by 100%, going from 50ish to 100ish to 200ish hits on normal, and worse on Hard/Elite.



What they could have done with Shroud:

Part 4: Reduce his hit points a bit, Make Blades % based rather than time based, have it happen 2-3 times total and harry flies away when the blades and trash spawn. You have to deal with healers each of those 2-3 times, and add a little bit more trash between waves (maybe a red-name or two so web/dance/wail doesn't trivialize it).

Part 5: Again, lower hit points. Harry gets a stacking +5% hp and 5% fort for every 30-60 seconds he's basking in the eclipse (to discourage "saving" a mob). At 75/50/25% Harry resurrects 2/3/4 lieutenants, possibly basking in the eclipse again while they're alive.

I like parts of both these ideas for the Shroud. I'd leave the Normal difficulty alone, but add these changes on Elite and maybe Hard.

Part 4: Having Harry teleport away at key points when his health drops. I like the 25%/50%/75% for Elite and maybe 33%/66% for Hard.

Part 5: Having Harry gain a little extra Fort and HP if the Lieutenants aren't dispatched quickly sounds like a nice twist to make encounter more "difficult". I'm not too keen on the increase of damage and rezzing of lieutenants. Maybe having the blades appear once his health drops to a certain point, maybe 10% or 15%.

[AMDarkwolf]

roll back to u10. Done. Everyone happy :P (Not really but pretty close. Almost everything about u11, bar the bravery system, is imo utter trash and makes the game 'unfun' and using the word 'game' and 'unfun' in the same sentence kinda sums up the problem here)

[grgurius]

roll back to u10. Done. Everyone happy :P (Not really but pretty close. Almost everything about u11, bar the bravery system, is imo utter trash and makes the game 'unfun' and using the word 'game' and 'unfun' in the same sentence kinda sums up the problem here)

Nah, you think to small, if we are rolling back, roll back pre u5, no combat nerf, no minion debuff... :D

[AmatsukaIncarnate]

Well...
Turbine says "Hey! Lets make raids harder for the players!"
Turbine Intern says "Why not make all the boss encounters harder?"
Turbine "Sounds like a good start...how do we do that?"
Turbine Intern exclaims "Easy! Give them a boat load of hp and fortification! If they don't die as fast, it HAS to be harder right?!"

In any case, I can see why they would try this...its fundamentally easy to accomplish which is critical considering how many balls they have to juggle at once...but I think it's the wrong approach for a top-tier MMO.

While due to power creep, I think boss hps SHOULD increase based off the rising power of the player, the key change to make something more DIFFICULT should be the mechanics of the fight...NOT by raising hp/fort and making bosses hit harder.

Lets make an example out of our favorite crash test dummy, Harry from the Shroud.

The fight is simply an all-out offensive frenzy. Melee run in and attack with all they have, arcanes dump mana, healers heal yada yada yada.

Boring.

These kinds of raids should die out in my opinion. No more all-out offensive frenzied encounters where everyone huddles in a circle around the raid boss. To make the encounter harder, add a raid mechanic!

Like a puzzle...(a la Abbott) or deadly trash mobs (a la VOD fire bats) or other interesting mechanics like HOX!

Turbine needs to express some creativity in updating these raids. While things CAN go a little wrong on Turbine's side (Abbot comes to mind), it also resulted in one of the most interesting battles in the game.

For example (I'm just going to throw an idea out there), what if in the shroud, in the final fight, Harry channels energy from the Eclipse and goes invulnerable and resurrects the now dead red names. Each red name corresponds to a 5 by 5 puzzle in each corner and the puzzle can only be solved after the red names die. Meanwhile, Harry goes inactive and is healed slightly by cultist gnolls (that can be killed of course).

While that is just an idea I came up with on the spot, I think it'd be pretty cool. Harry, in essence, becomes more survivable...but somewhat on the players terms because if the players coordinate and kill the red names efficiently and puzzle solvers do their job, Harry will be vulnerable again.

Wow, that turned out long...
edit: also, make raids with the classes in mind. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE create encounters that make everyone feel useful. This tip is in the DM guide for 3.5! ;)

edit edit: Ruphus and I had very similar ideas about Part 5 of Shroud. I like his proposal as well :)

[Moltier]

The cove system could work here as well, but without high lvl limit.
Weak pug for lower loot chance in lvl23.
Strong pug or guild group for higher loot chance but in a way more risky lvl30 dungeon. :)
Currenly VoN6, chrono and Adq2 can be a nightmare or a joke.
One day a divine can solo heal it, while 1-2 other just pike. The other day 3 cant.

[oradafu]

roll back to u10. Done. Everyone happy :P (Not really but pretty close. Almost everything about u11, bar the bravery system, is imo utter trash and makes the game 'unfun' and using the word 'game' and 'unfun' in the same sentence kinda sums up the problem here)

As much as I agree with you, I think a roll back to Update 10 will happen right after a roll back to Update 8 forums happen. I don't think Turbine is going to give an inch, even if logic dictates that a change is needed, just like the unscrambling of the class forums is needed.

[Kmnh]

I would add deathward to all trash mobs, so they can't be so easily killed.

I'd make important trash red-named (like the devs did with the mind flayers on elite HOX)

I'd replace the energy drain effects from the bosses with flesh to stone, so it would actually matter.

I'd remove sp pots from the store so people who want them have to actually grind it out. Buying a raid out is a silly concept.

I would add cometfall and power word stun to lailat's spell list.

I would scrap the velah fight and replace it with a dragon that actually moves. That raid is less interesting the the mired in kobolds end fight.

With the exception of Lord Of Blades, epic raids are still too easy :)

[rayworks]

The sp no one will even notice and a 50 hp difference won't make anyone
decline you from the group.




I call BS on this one. I couldn't tell you how many raid groups on Cannith I've seen since U11 that say XHP required. People are declining more since the bars got added.

[Orratti]

Introduce enemy psions. Guys that could see you coming a mile away and have deathward, haste, displacement, stoneskin, resists, protections, rage and bardsongs or whatever they have available already on their group when you arrive. They could also have already laid down their crowd control. Throw in a higher number of attacks for them, not as much as players have but more than 3 swings then a rest before another 3 swings. Then you could drop their fort and lower their hps down to a reasonable level.

As for the dragon, yeah let her fly around and blast the field from the sky and use her other attacks while on the ground. Then she could be dropped down in hps.

Like the suggestions already made for Harry.

[Dendrix]

Velah: fight is longer needing mroe resources. boring
Queen: if you get lag you all die and have wasted time
Abbot: waste of space and time running it
Chrono: not run it since u11. scroll drop rate is so pathetic I have every item ready to complete. waste of time.

Raids harder so orion raids have mroe than 50% fail rate. loot same as it was. Fun = less then it was before.

Fail.
Epic Fail.

[BDog77]

There's a lot I'd change, but as to that specific thing where they raised boss Fortification on Elite: Remove increased Fortification from bosses on higher difficulty settings.
Instead, the higher settings of those bosses can get a percentage absorption to damage, such as 10-20%, as if they were using Shield Mastery.
Effects which have a Fortification debuff (like Improved Sunder, new Destruction, and Condemnation) also debuff that percentage absorption.

Boom, simple: The higher difficulty bosses are still harder to hurt and there is still an extra incentive to utilize certain debuffs, but the extra defense is applied equally to all melee classes, instead of unfairly singling out Rogues.


This is absolutely brilliant....nuff said

[redoubt]

Some people talk about how their friends got bored and left because it was to easy.

On the flip side my friends left because they were bored because it got boring.

The game has been focusing more and more on bosses and players needing high hp and high damage. Nothing else matters. This, in my opinion, and that of my friends, is boring.

Thats part of why I like the cove. It changes every time, it is well written and no matter how good you think you are, one moron or a bad crystal drop can humble you.

I have seen one quest that I like the changes on. Two friends and I were running undermine (with Kaboom) on elite. The extra mobs at the beginning fight were boring and overdone (65 to get to the first mini-boss was too many.) Then we went down the first hall. The mines were different and that was okay. The rock monster however, seemed much tougher. We used the explosive packs to kill them. I thought this was awesome. As two barbs and a cleric, the floor mines were eating us up and we did not finish, but I did like the new tactic with the rock monsters.

For those upset by people not "stepping up their game", you assume we all want to play your game. We don't. My three main characters are a dex/AC/trapsmith, a enchanter, and a turn/heal/cast spec'd cleric. Sure I could make a 800hp barb or whatever, but that has never really interested me, so please don't assume we are all incapable of playing your way and that we are stupid. Some of us just find it boring and choose not to do it.

[somenewnoob]

Add a no save AOE spell that the bosses can cast called "lag" that would freeze everybody in place for 3-8 seconds.............

[cdemeritt]

I call BS on this one. I couldn't tell you how many raid groups on Cannith I've seen since U11 that say XHP required. People are declining more since the bars got added.

Yup, and of these, almost all of them can easily be achieved with no raid loot, just by not dumping con... 350 HP is not difficult to hit on *ANY* character... yes some people want more, but Point being having good HP's isn't difficult. Now what the guy was saying if you have say 490HP on a caster, you are just as likely to get into a group if you have 450 HP on the same caster

[DeltaBravo]

I would revert current raids to pre U11 status

I would design new raids to not be focused on beatdowns requiring high-HP, high-DPS tanks



totally agree.. +1

And i never thought the old raids where to easy and i dont think many did.. i just think many learned really fast how to do the old raids ;) and therefor became easy.

[Rawel_San]

I call BS on this one. I couldn't tell you how many raid groups on Cannith I've seen since U11 that say XHP required. People are declining more since the bars got added.

I've never seen that on thelanis but that might just be me. People atm are declining more since the raids
got harder and you can't carry as many pikers through say EDQ2, or EVon6 at the same time
fewer old raids are run as people work on learning the new raids.

You missed my point though. I didn't say people wouldn't decline for you hp. I said the EXTRA hp you get from
epic items isn't the reason you get declined. If you have 300 hp on a rogue there's a good chance you will
get declined but epic gear won't get you more then an extra 20 possibly 30. Your build might need work
or you will have to prove to people that those 300 hp's work fine for you because you're an awesome
player that can pull it off.

[drac317]

well if they're gonna do a roll back.
i say go for broke,take it to mod 8 and finally give us mod 9:D

[PsiGuy]

Random buffs/attacks for mobs.

Give mobs a slot or two for random items that buff them or allow them additional abilities, and automatically cast on cool down those temporary effects.

This way, sometimes harry has 100% fort, and sometimes its immunity to lightning, or air guard, or DR 30/bludgeon, or tosses out a disjunction, or stone skin, or displacement every 90 seconds, or +X buff to specific saves or whatever.

The main idea being, you don't always know before you go in what will be the most effective tactic against any boss. You may know what his standards are, but once in the while it would be "What do you mean harry is immune to lightning and has radiance guard???!!!"

If some buff is OP, you can just pull it from the list, or you can add more at any time and change the way all bosses have to be considered. And even if one is OP, it would only effect you once in X number of runs.

Make this universal, so even trash can have one or more of the bonus effects, the higher the rating [Normal|Hard|Elite|Epic] the more random effects are applied to every mob.

[Krell]

I’m ok with raids getting easier as you gain in power. It gives you a sense of accomplishment. Things like “Remember when we used to wipe half the time on this and now we are close to 100%?”. I’m fine with things being challenging at level but if we want to go back at 20 and farm Reavers loot, it should be a quick quest.

The thing I don’t see mentioned much is player’s time. Many of us work full time and have families. When we game, we are giving up something else like that lame romcom your wife wants to watch. If I’m going to spend an hour on a quest, I want to know there is a good chance that we will complete it. I don’t want to walk away thinking I spent an hour gaming and got nothing for it.

Another thing I don’t see mentioned much is player mood. If I’m in a quest and people are relaxed and joking around while staying focused, then I enjoy the company more. If everyone is deadly serious and getting upset with each other if anything goes wrong, then I don’t enjoy the company and my game time is less enjoyable.

Another factor is variety. If I go through various stages of a quest like Shroud, I’m ok with that, and repeating it isn’t as bad. If I just have to beat on the same monster even longer now, that is less fun. Personally I think having to fight one boss for more than 4-5 minutes is too long. I’d rather spend more time getting to the boss.

I also think all content should be tuned so that any group can afford for about a third of the group to be good players with average gear. This allows good newer players to gain power and enjoy what the game has to offer. If you want to form a perfect group, I’m ok with the quest going nearly perfect. I think we need to keep the door open because it is new players with good gaming skills that keep the game alive and provide future leadership. That cycle needs to keep churning if we are going to avoid this game regressing.

[Qhualor]

i would give the bad guys a brain. a mob that reacts to attacks and enemies close by and uses rational thinking on how to defeat me, is a strong mob thats tough to beat and dont know what they are going to do next. if they acted anything close to our strategies than those fights could be fun and interesting. kind of like what a kobold does when trying to not get hit, but less annoying. a boss who actually tries to not get cornered or actually stands there and take a beating. random, roaming mobs so we dont know whats around the corner everytime. if anything like this than hp, fort and saves wouldnt need to play so much of a part in trying to keep a fun difficulty.

[xxScoobyDooxx]

Revert HP and fort back

Have two magic chains that attach from crystals positioned to the east and west of the centre island to Velah. These chains hold her down while we beat on her.

Have trash spawn that attack the crystals and anyone near the chains. If trash break either crystal then Velah flies free and regens while players must kill trash and repair the crystals to then re-chain Velah back down.

Breath occurs as per normal. More trash spawns as Velah's health drops. Also spawn the trash unevenly. So one crystal may have 2 on it and the other may get 4 meaning you may need to constantly reassign who is needed where.

Not much development required as all the mechanics for this are there already ... just add 2 crystals and chains (similar to the healing ones in part 4 shroud)

Players would need 3 groups and possibly 3 healers for the end fight and a lot more coordination.

Also answers the question as to why a dragon is dumb enough to stand there and take a beating.