Chimera's Defender

[Szordrinn]

Hi everyone,

I'm still thinking about a paladin build that would have good synergy with the new eChimera's Fang. After a few attempts, i made this build. I know it's not very versatile and would lack dps when a tank is not needed but i like the flavour behind the tatoo and the sword !!!

Without sacrificing too much of tanking ability, do you have suggestions to improve this toon ?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(2 Fighter \ 18 Paladin)
Hit Points: 342
Spell Points: 230
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 24
Reflex: 15
Will: 13

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 17 26
Dexterity 12 14
Constitution 14 16
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 1 2
Bluff 2 3
Concentration 2 29
Diplomacy 2 3
Disable Device n/a n/a
Haggle 2 3
Heal -1 0
Hide 1 2
Intimidate 6 36
Jump 5 16
Listen -1 0
Move Silently 1 2
Open Lock n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a
Repair 0 1
Search 0 1
Spot -1 0
Swim 3 8
Tumble 2 3
Use Magic Device 4 14

Level 1 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Human Bonus) Toughness
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Paladin)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 16 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Unyielding Sovereignty
Enhancement: Follower of the Sovereign Host
Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation II
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation III
Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation IV
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good IV
Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys I
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II
Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys III
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate I
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate II
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate III
Enhancement: Improved Intimidate IV
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II

[NeutronStar]

Why the THF feats when you're going to S&B almost exclusively?

In my opinion, the grazing hits aren't worth spending 3 feats on.

Losing the Paladin Capstone could be devastating to the build unless you slot that Red Augment slot with the Good crystal.

If you drop the 2 fighter levels (and the THF feats) and go pure, you'll get the Weapons of Good capstone. Then you can slot that Red Augment slot with Cold Iron and get the benefits of Silver, Cold Iron, and Good. You'll have a really nice Demon and Devil boss beater all in one weapon!

[Mubjon]

Why the THF feats when you're going to S&B amlmost exclusively?

In my opinion, the grazing hits aren't worth spending 3 feats on.

Losing he Paladin Capstone could be devastating to the build unless you slot that Red Augment slot with the Good crystal.

If you drop the 2 fighter levels (and the THF feats) and go pure, you'll get the Weapons of Good capstone. Then you can slot that Red Augment slot with Cold Iron and get the benefits of Silver, Cold Iron, and Good. You'll have a really nice Demon and Devil boss beater all in one weapon!

He needs the fighter levels to get in all the Feats he needs, as to make the best use of the fang you need all three Dragonmark feats.

[Szordrinn]

actually, the aim here would be to calculate the difference between :

- 3 THF feats without paladin capstone
- 1 THF feat with paladin capstone with 1 less in strength, no haste boost

pure paladin attracts me as well, help me to decide !!

[Krinn83]

You also lose tower shield proficiency without those 2 fighter levels.

[NeutronStar]

You also lose tower shield proficiency without those 2 fighter levels.

Not if you're Human and drop the THF feats.

H - Tower Shield Proficiency
1 - Toughness
3 - Combat Expertise
6 - Sentinel Dragonmark I
9 - Shield Mastery
12 - Sentinel Dragonmark II
15 - Power Attack
18 - Sentinel Dragonmark III



Notable Missing feats:

Improved Critical - Not necessary as Epic Chimera's Fang and Mineral II weapons are Keen and doesn't stack with IC.

Extend Spell - This is a problem for me. I really like having Divine Favor, Zeal, and Prayer lasting as long as possible. Sure it's not really NECESSARY but it is nice to have.

Skill Focus: UMD - Not REALLY necessary either but nice to have nonetheless.

Improved Shield Bash - Nice to have for the extra automatic shield attack it grants but hard to fit in.

[Szordrinn]

Not if you're Human and drop the THF feats.

Notable Missing feats:

Agree Improved Critical - Not necessary as Epic Chimera's Fang and Mineral II weapons are Keen and doesn't stack with IC.

Don't think it's a paladin feat and as i am playing a cleric, it becomes a quite useless feat at level 20... Extend Spell - This is a problem for me. I really like having Divine Favor, Zeal, and Prayer lasting as long as possible. Sure it's not really NECESSARY but it is nice to have.

Hum... Skill Focus: UMD - Not REALLY necessary either but nice to have nonetheless.


I suppose you COULD drop Improved Shield Bash and replace it with one of the "Missing" feats above but doing so sort of goes against the "shieldy" feel of the build. :)

answers in red

[unbongwah]

I don't see Power Atk - that's kind of an important one...

[Ralmeth]

Hey Szordrinn,

What about going pure Paladin, dropping the THF feats (all of them) and picking up power attack? My favorite situation is when it makes sense to fight in S&B mode with a kick-butt weapon with power attack turned on (usually this is Amrath for me).

As for tower shield, this is one of half a dozen feats that I think could be helpful to have, but you can get by without. You'll probably want an epic shield if you're planning your whole build around an epic weapon, at which point you won't be using a tower shield.

[Ralmeth]

I don't see Power Atk - that's kind of an important one...

Unbongwah,

Do you know how many times you slightly beat me to it? LOL.

[NeutronStar]

answers in red

MANY Paladins use Extend Spell.



I don't see Power Atk - that's kind of an important one...


What about going pure Paladin, dropping the THF feats (all of them) and picking up power attack?

Power Attack is definitely more important to the THF builds. For a Sword and Board build, not so much.

Besides, if CE and PA still work the way they used to, you cannot have both on at the same time.

If you're going S&B as the OP said he's going to do, you're going for defense/AC otherwise, why would you be using a shield? So in this case, CE is better for the +5 to AC.



As for tower shield, this is one of half a dozen feats that I think could be helpful to have, but you can get by without. You'll probably want an epic shield if you're planning your whole build around an epic weapon, at which point you won't be using a tower shield.

Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

[RTN]

Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

Put some points into UMD and use a Master's Touch scroll for Tower Shield Proficiency. In a feat starved class, this is a much better way to do it.

I think even a build like this should have Power Attack. When you aren't actively intiming, you're probably better off swinging a greataxe or falchion. Since intim these days isn't as good in group of mobs, you're better off having a DPS mode and saving your intim mode for bosses.

[LeLoric]

Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

I disagree completely here. The current best shields for a shield use are the epic Kundarak or the Epic swashbuckler. Yes they do lose some damage reduction due to shield mastery but other than that they have the same ac and 1 less point of blocking dr. As for the rest the stats are much better they have no limit to max dex, don't lower to hit etc. Levik's shield is just no longer in the same tier.

[NeutronStar]

I disagree completely here. The current best shields for a shield use are the epic Kundarak or the Epic swashbuckler. Yes they do lose some damage reduction due to shield mastery but other than that they have the same ac and 1 less point of blocking dr. As for the rest the stats are much better they have no limit to max dex, don't lower to hit etc. Levik's shield is just no longer in the same tier.



I don't really see anything particularly attractive about the Epic Kundarak Warding Shield. The Epic Swashbuckler has some nice stuff on it for sure but for a Pally S&B who's going to be tanking and generating hate most likely, the Levik's set is still better. I mean seriously, the Swashbuckler is a Small shield (thus only blocks 10% of Physical damage with the Shield Mastery feat) and it's blocking DR is a paltry 8. Levik's shield blocks TWICE the amount of incoming physical damage and it's also is almost TWICE as effective in regards to Blocking DR as its Blocking DR is 15.

Again, the Levik's set adds 3 more to AC, 20% more to Threat AND an occasional Heal spell proc.

I think the Levik's set stands up quite well for S&B builds and it's also fairly easy to get!

[wax_on_wax_off]

Some thoughts:
1. Swap improved shield bash for power attack. Useful for those times while tanking that you don't need combat expertise. Crucial for those times when you aren't tanking and you pull out a big 2 hander.
2. Swap concentration for balance. Don't really see much point in concentration but balance is handy to stay on your feat.
3. Bastard Sword + GTHF is better single handed DPS than khopesh if I remember correctly by some maths that somebody did. Hence, this is a good idea. If you don't want to go GTHF then I'd say you'd be better of with a khopesh of some description.
4. I'd consider starting with 16 charisma to provide easy access to DMIII (which is good single handed DPS). If you pick up a +3 or +4 charisma tome then you can TR/LR to adjust stats accordingly.
5. Diplomacy might be handy to have as with the new raid it is important to be able to shift aggro between 2 tanks. Probably not worth it on this build but something to keep in mind.
6. Combat Expertise isn't going to be worthwhile in many situations. I'd probably consider swapping it to improved shield mastery for a little bit of extra DR (that will work regardless of your gear) and then if you get enough AC gear that your AC will matter in end game raids/epics then you can TR/feat swap to pick it up.
7. Not having weapons of good on the eFang isn't that big a deal as it loses some DPS against demons anyway who are immune to shocking burst damage (but not as much as it used to with lightning strike being changed to disintegrate). However, what weapon will you use against demons? There aren't many good choices (beyond 2 handers).

[Szordrinn]

Some thoughts:
However, what weapon will you use against demons?


I think i could get a crafted holy burst cold iron longsword of pure good/greater chaotic outsider bane...

Or if i go pure, i slot cold iron on the eChimera's Fang... but i'd loose iTHG and gTHF and add 1-2d6 to all attacks...

can't decide here...

About power attack, i prefer to save a feat and have less damage in dps mode.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I think i could get a crafted holy burst cold iron longsword of pure good/greater chaotic outsider bane...

Or if i go pure, i slot cold iron on the eChimera's Fang... but i'd loose iTHG and gTHF and add 1-2d6 to all attacks...

can't decide here...

About power attack, i prefer to save a feat and have less damage in dps mode.

You need power attack, please don't make a tank without it. Realise that you need gear from raids/quests that don't need a tank, hence, you have an obligation to your party to bring a worthwhile character which implies power attack. You aren't a melee without power attack.

Tanking is between 1 and 5% of the game. Rest of the time prepare to DPS.

[Skavenaps]

i already studied going paladin pure or fighter pure when i saw the chimera fang changes (had a toon ready for TR waiting for a vible heavy armored tank build). and i gave up on the paladin side. simply, not enough feats. fighter will be always superior.

[wax_on_wax_off]

i already studied going paladin pure or fighter pure when i saw the chimera fang changes (had a toon ready for TR waiting for a vible heavy armored tank build). and i gave up on the paladin side. simply, not enough feats. fighter will be always superior.

What does fighter vs paladin have to do with anything? I love that you've managed to make a viable paladin tank build using the new eFang, +1

Just ... do it properly (ie, don't skip power attack).

[NeutronStar]

You need power attack, please don't make a tank without it. Realise that you need gear from raids/quests that don't need a tank, hence, you have an obligation to your party to bring a worthwhile character which implies power attack. You aren't a melee without power attack.

Tanking is between 1 and 5% of the game. Rest of the time prepare to DPS.

False on both counts, just utterly false.

1. There is no single feat that anyone "must" have (unless it's a pre-req for a PrE or something). What determines whether a feat is optimal for a toon is the Purpose of the toon and the play-style of the player. I've got a Defender of Siberys with no Power Attack and sure his DPS isn't the best in DDO. But I don't care. If I wanted DPS, I would have rolled a Monster or Exploiter build. My DoS' AC is very good, his Intimidate is pretty high, and his amount Hate generation is also high. With the changes coming to Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys (see http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4016126#post4016126 and http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4016142#post4016142), his AC, DR, HPs, and Hate generation will ALL be Outstanding. He will be able to keep the agro versus anyone and survive to tell the tale.

2. Tanking CAN be WAY MORE than 1-5% of the game. You just have to know what you're doing. Well-timed and sufficiently high Intimidates can bring whole groups of mobs beating on you instead of the divines, casters, or other squishies in your group. Sure, Intimidate can wear off rather quickly but those few seconds where the mobs are beating on you rather than your party's Wizard or Cleric can make ALL the difference and with your high AC (assuming you really build for it) and DR, you'll survive those few seconds of getting beat on easily. If your Hate generation is high enough, you place your melee attacks well enough, and you have the right equipment (guards like Corrosive Salt for example), you'll keep the agro of entire groups of Mobs.

(Speaking of Guards, I forgot the Levik's Defender shield also includes Sonic Guard which is a nice little bonus. It's not great, but it's nice.)

Now, to be sure, there will be times when taking out your Epic Hellstroke Greataxe or some other two-hander will be more desirable than "tanking" (like beating the Stormreaver down after the lever has been thrown, when Xyzzy is vulnerable, or beating on portals, etc.) but those times are fewer and farther between than when you can tank if you desire. If you're like me, you'll choose to "tank" pretty much at all times. You'll use your high Intimidate skill to draw the mobs to you like flies or be the Hate turtle against the likes of Suulomades or Horoth.

For me, there are significantly more times to "tank" than not "tank." Therefore, I consider Power Attack to not be a necessary feat in this case.

[NeutronStar]

i already studied going paladin pure or fighter pure when i saw the chimera fang changes (had a toon ready for TR waiting for a vible heavy armored tank build). and i gave up on the paladin side. simply, not enough feats.

Not true.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4015444&postcount=6




fighter will be always superior.

Care to support that statement?

[wax_on_wax_off]

False on both counts, just utterly false.

1. There is no single feat that anyone "must" have (unless it's a pre-req for a PrE or something). What determines whether a feat is optimal for a toon is the Purpose of the toon and the play-style of the player. I've got a Defender of Siberys with no Power Attack and sure his DPS isn't the best in DDO. But I don't care. If I wanted DPS, I would have rolled a Monster or Exploiter build. My DoS' AC is very good, his Intimidate is pretty high, and his amount Hate generation is also high. With the changes coming to Stalwart Defender/Defender of Siberys (see http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4016126#post4016126 and http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=4016142#post4016142), his AC, DR, HPs, and Hate generation will ALL be Outstanding. He will be able to keep the agro versus anyone and survive to tell the tale.

2. Tanking CAN be WAY MORE than 1-5% of the game. You just have to know what you're doing. Well-timed and sufficiently high Intimidates can bring whole groups on mobs beating on you instead of the divines, casters, or other squishies in your group. Sure, Intimidate can wear off rather quickly but those few seconds where the mobs are beating on you rather than your party's Wizard or Cleric can make ALL the difference and with your high AC (assuming you really build for it) and DR, you'll survive those few seconds of getting beat on easily. If your Hate generation is high enough, you place your melee attacks well enough, and you have the right equipment (guards like Corrosive Salt for example), you'll keep the agro of entire groups of Mobs.

(Speaking of Guards, I forgot the Levik's Defender shield also includes Sonic Guard which is a nice little bonus. It's not great, but it's nice.)

Now, to be sure, there will be times when taking out your Epic Hellstroke Greataxe or some other two-hander will be more desirable than "tanking" (like beating the Stormreaver down after the lever has been thrown, when Xyzzy is vulnerable, or beating on portals, etc.) but those times are fewer and farther between than when you can tank if you desire. If you're like me, you'll choose to "tank" pretty much at all times. You'll use your high Intimidate skill to draw the mobs to you like flies or be the Hate turtle against the likes of Suulomades or Horoth.

For me, there are significantly more times to "tank" than not "tank." Therefore, I consider Power Attack to not be a necessary feet in this case.

Oh, you sound fun to quest with.

[NeutronStar]

Oh, you sound fun to quest with.

I never get declined for groups when I click on the LFM. Not sure if that's because of my magnetic personality or my tank's reputation. :p

[Skavenaps]

What does fighter vs paladin have to do with anything? I love that you've managed to make a viable paladin tank build using the new eFang, +1

Just ... do it properly (ie, don't skip power attack).

cause tank is fun and usefull.. but u need to bring more thing to the table. dps for exemple. if not.. you are better using a barb or a caster doting.

and to bring a decent dps.. u need feats. and paladin lacks them.

hold aggro is something a paladin and a fighter could do, but doing also real dmg and not just aggro its something the paladin will hardly will be able to.

[Skavenaps]

Not true.

http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=4015444&postcount=6


im not saying you cant tank with a paladin, im saying you will be not able to do that and puting a fair amount of dps.

No thw feats, no power attack in the build you are linking, and a fighter will have room for improved shield Mastery, adding a extra 5% dmg reduccion you will never have.

[NeutronStar]

im not saying you cant tank with a paladin, im saying you will be not able to do that and puting a fair amount of dps.

No thw feats, no power attack in the build you are linking, and a fighter will have room for improved shield Mastery, adding a extra 5% dmg reduccion you will never have.

Two words:

Paladin Capstone


It's THAT good.


Just like Healer's Friend III, the cost-benefit ratio for Improved Shield Mastery just isn't worth a feat. If it added another 10% reduction in incoming physical damage, I might consider it but as it stands now, it's totally not worth it.

[Skavenaps]

Two words:

Paladin Capstone


It's THAT good.

"Paladin Weapons of Good: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders."

Lets grant you, you are fighing againts a evil outside, and you are doing 3d6 extra dmg per swing. Do you even think that goes close to power attack + 3 thw feats?

fast maths.

Paladin
3d6 -> 9 dmg per hit.

Fighter

power atack -> 5 dmg per hit (lets stay human and not horc for the extra 3 dmg on power attack)
3 thw feats -> 30% more dmg for glancing + options to proc the special weapon effects (9%)

this taking not in consideration fighter dps feats, like weapon Specialization and all that fighter dmg is appling to all mobs (no just evil outsiders).

finally about the DR breakers (good type weapon) Arti on next update will fix it.

[sephiroth1084]

I don't really see anything particularly attractive about the Epic Kundarak Warding Shield. The Epic Swashbuckler has some nice stuff on it for sure but for a Pally S&B who's going to be tanking and generating hate most likely, the Levik's set is still better. I mean seriously, the Swashbuckler is a Small shield (thus only blocks 10% of Physical damage with the Shield Mastery feat) and it's blocking DR is a paltry 8. Levik's shield blocks TWICE the amount of incoming physical damage and it's also is almost TWICE as effective in regards to Blocking DR as its Blocking DR is 15.

Again, the Levik's set adds 3 more to AC, 20% more to Threat AND an occasional Heal spell proc.

I think the Levik's set stands up quite well for S&B builds and it's also fairly easy to get!
The Levik's set reduces AC. The AC it grants is an insight bonus and doesn't stack with any of the other sources for +4 Insight AC. So, it doesn't add anything to most configurations. On top of that, the bracers slot is usually reserved for either a +2 Dodge item or piece of the Abishai set for a +3 Profane AC. Replacing those results in a loss of 1, 2 or 3 AC depending on other gear and how you want to do your calculations.

As for the shield itself, the Heal proc rate is incredibly low and the shield's only other benefit is that it is mithral and therefore bypasses raid boss DR in conjunction with the paladin capstone. Requires a feat.

Compare that to the KWS, which can also be made to bypass DR by slotting it with Silver in the purple slot or can carry one of Toughness, Good Luck, Heavy Fortification, a +6 stat or a +1 exceptional stat, and it has +6 Resist.

And consider the Swashbuckler, which grants a doublestrike 6% bonus, a built in +4 Insight bonus to AC and saves, freeing up equipment slots (unless the Fang gets this, which it may), the minor damage from Riposte and +2 exceptional Dex, which could be boosting your AC further.

Now, yes, moving from 20% DR to15% or 10% DR is a big deal, but I don't think that the extra 5% or 10% reduction is necessarily worth more than all of the other benefits on the other two shields. At the very least, they are all in contention, each with slightly different benefits to consider.


False on both counts, just utterly false.

A melee without Power Attack is a weak melee. A character looking to hate tank without Power Attack is going to be in a lot of trouble in a lot of fights, and there are places where PA is preferable to CE, even when tanking, but especially when NOT tanking, where the only thing you need to be doing is laying down the DPS.



On the 18/2 version, I'd drop GTHF for PA if you couldn't fit it in any other way. On the pure 20 version I'd skip basically any other feat not crucial to the build in order to fit in PA.

[NeutronStar]

The Levik's set reduces AC. The AC it grants is an insight bonus and doesn't stack with any of the other sources for +4 Insight AC. So, it doesn't add anything to most configurations. On top of that, the bracers slot is usually reserved for either a +2 Dodge item or piece of the Abishai set for a +3 Profane AC. Replacing those results in a loss of 1, 2 or 3 AC depending on other gear and how you want to do your calculations.

True but you're depending on LONG grinds for Epic items and a LOT less flexibility for gear selection as that extra +3 Profane Bonus to AC requires 3 gear slots.



As for the shield itself, the Heal proc rate is incredibly low and the shield's only other benefit is that it is mithral and therefore bypasses raid boss DR in conjunction with the paladin capstone.

Not quite true. You missed Sonic Guard (mentioned above), almost twice the Blocking DR as the Epic Swashbuckler, and the extra 20% Hate generation when you also have Levik's Bracers.



Compare that to the KWS, which can also be made to bypass DR by slotting it with Silver in the purple slot or can carry one of Toughness, Good Luck, Heavy Fortification, a +6 stat or a +1 exceptional stat, and it has +6 Resist.

Again, more Epic grind.



And consider the Swashbuckler, which grants a doublestrike 6% bonus, a built in +4 Insight bonus to AC and saves, freeing up equipment slots (unless the Fang gets this, which it may), the minor damage from Riposte and +2 exceptional Dex, which could be boosting your AC further.

Now, yes, moving from 20% DR to15% or 10% DR is a big deal, but I don't think that the extra 5% or 10% reduction is necessarily worth more than all of the other benefits on the other two shields. At the very least, they are all in contention, each with slightly different benefits to consider.

I agree the Epic Swashbuckler and the +2 Dodge bonus to AC bracers from the Update 10 quest line is an appealing combination - a lot of bells and whistles to be sure. However, I believe the extra threat generation, the 20% reduction in physical damage, and the much higher Blocking DR fits the purpose of the build better.



A melee without Power Attack is a weak melee. A character looking to hate tank without Power Attack is going to be in a lot of trouble in a lot of fights,

I can tell you from experience, that's not really true. For a TWF or THF, loss of PA is definitely significant and important. For a S&B guy, that loss of 5 points of damage per swing when you don't get that many swings in anyway, isn't that much of a loss. Again, it's a cost-benefit analysis.



and there are places where PA is preferable to CE, even when tanking, but especially when NOT tanking, where the only thing you need to be doing is laying down the DPS.

I'll repeat, there's a LOT more opportuinty for tanking than you're making allowances for.

[Skavenaps]

Not quite true. You missed Sonic Guard (mentioned above), almost twice the Blocking DR as the Epic Swashbuckler, and the extra 20% Hate generation when you also have Levik's Bracers.


Whats the point of sonic guard if u aim to be NOT hit?
If u are activing blocking all time, when you will start swinging to get the aggro?
And about the set.. quoting at you.. "LOT less flexibility for gear selection"

and finally is funny you talk about grind, didnt know that levik defender and bracers droped on waterwork....

[sephiroth1084]

True but you're depending on LONG grinds for Epic items and a LOT less flexibility for gear selection as that extra +3 Profane Bonus to AC requires 3 gear slots.
Uh...Chaosgarde Bracers and the bracers from the madness quests both have the Dodge +2 (and at least the Chaosgardes are easy to obtain). You can get +4 Insight AC from several items, some of which are likely easier to obtain than running the Hound 20 times.

It does require 3 slots, but the items add quite a bit that make them worth slotting.




Not quite true. You missed Sonic Guard (mentioned above), almost twice the Blocking DR as the Epic Swashbuckler, and the extra 20% Hate generation when you also have Levik's Bracers. I did forget about the Sonic Guard, yeah. That's a point in favor, but the blocking DR rarely comes up (and it's not twice as much as on the KWS), and the hate generation can be obtained in other places (does the fully powered Fang have 20% hate gen?), such as the Epic Claw Gloves which are excellent, whereas the Levik's Bracers are mediocre at this point.





Again, more Epic grind. Was this a point of contention here? It's a matter of preference: do you prefer grinding the Hound or running epic quests? Do you want the best gear set-up you can get or do you want the best for the least amount of effort? Is running the Hound 20-25 times less effort necessarily than running epics for this stuff?





I agree the Epic Swashbuckler and the +2 Dodge bonus to AC bracers from the Update 10 quest line is an appealing combination - a lot of bells and whistles to be sure. However, I believe the extra threat generation, the 20% reduction in physical damage, and the much higher Blocking DR fits the purpose of the build better.The purpose of the build is to grab aggro and not get hurt too badly. DPS is part of that, and the doublestrike from the shield isn't replicable, whereas the 20% hate boost is.





I can tell you from experience, that's not really true. For a TWF or THF, loss of PA is definitely significant and important. For a S&B guy, that loss of 5 points of damage per swing when you don't get that many swings in anyway, isn't that much of a loss. Again, it's a cost-benefit analysis. And I have at least as much experience running a S&B tank as you, maybe more, and I'll say that PA is nonnegotiable. You aren't getting fewer swings S&Bing than THF, though PA counts for less, but you're so far behind everyone else on DPS already that every little bit matters more. Additionally, if you're going to bother with the THF feats it makes your glancing blows better. If you're going to bother with Improved Shield Bash it makes your bashes better. Finally, there are too many situations in the game where DPS is more important than anything else, and not having PA in those situations sucks.

Notably, this sort of build can very easily transition to a two-handed weapon (likely a Min II to maintain Keen, but not necessarily a must) to increase DPS when holding a shield is pointless until you hit level 20 and can use the Epic Fang.





I'll repeat, there's a LOT more opportuinty for tanking than you're making allowances for.
No, there isn't. If anything, I'd say that you are putting far too much weight on CE. I tank Horoth on normal with PA on and without a shield, because he can't hit me. I do the same in VoD on elite if I have buffs. The only time I turn on CE is when I need it, such as when I'm tanking Elite Horoth. Doing otherwise just seems like intentionally gimping yourself.

[wax_on_wax_off]

I can tell you from experience, that's not really true. For a TWF or THF, loss of PA is definitely significant and important. For a S&B guy, that loss of 5 points of damage per swing when you don't get that many swings in anyway, isn't that much of a loss. Again, it's a cost-benefit analysis.

DPS loss for Power Attack for sword and board ... I'm not sure of the exact hits/second but you're probably looking at 11-13 DPS (including glancing blows). When you consider threat generation you're losing what, 30+ DPS worth of threat?

The bigger issue is that if you don't take it there are just so many situations in which you are letting your team down. While leveling up no one wants a tank build, it's just smash and grab (no need to tank here). In raids/epics it's a bit different. However:
ToD: Trash before parts: DPS, Part 2: DPS, Part 1 and 3: After 1 boss is dead you may not be designated tank for the boss that is left; hence, possibly DPS.
Shroud: Well, DPS the whole time?
eChrono: only 1 tank needed for the bosses, LOTS of trash that shouldn't be tanked, S'n'B isn't needed for Abishai Devestator as displacement is fine, hence; DPS is probably fine (I'm not 100% on that, only healed/DPS'd/casted this raid before).
Reaver: Don't expect to always be the tank in this, expect to quite often DPS the elementals and pike.

That's just off the top of my head ...

[elraido]

"Paladin Weapons of Good: Any weapon you wield is considered Good aligned for purposes of bypassing damage reduction, deal 1d6 additional holy damage against all evil opponents and an additional 2d6 light damage against evil undead or evil outsiders."

Lets grant you, you are fighing againts a evil outside, and you are doing 3d6 extra dmg per swing. Do you even think that goes close to power attack + 3 thw feats?

fast maths.

Paladin
3d6 -> 9 dmg per hit.

Fighter

power atack -> 5 dmg per hit (lets stay human and not horc for the extra 3 dmg on power attack)
3 thw feats -> 30% more dmg for glancing + options to proc the special weapon effects (9%)

this taking not in consideration fighter dps feats, like weapon Specialization and all that fighter dmg is appling to all mobs (no just evil outsiders).

finally about the DR breakers (good type weapon) Arti on next update will fix it.

Oh this makes my head hurt.
First, the Paladin could (and should have power attack as well). So throw that little bit of "extra DPS" from the fighter out the window.

Second, a Paladin can also take Divine Might, which can be +8 to damage per swing. And throw in the +3 from Divine Favor. That is +11 total/swing that a fighter can't have.

Third, the Paladin capstone give every single weapon he touches "pure good". You know what that means? Every single epic weapon in the game that has a red slot can be made into a devil dr busting weapon. Heck, it doesn't even need a redslot. All it needs to be is cold iron/metalline/silver etc. It is nice to be able to pick up a eSoS, slot it with silver and go kick some devil butt with out needed an augment slot.

[Skavenaps]

Oh this makes my head hurt.
First, the Paladin could (and should have power attack as well). So throw that little bit of "extra DPS" from the fighter out the window.

Second, a Paladin can also take Divine Might, which can be +8 to damage per swing. And throw in the +3 from Divine Favor. That is +11 total/swing that a fighter can't have.

Third, the Paladin capstone give every single weapon he touches "pure good". You know what that means? Every single epic weapon in the game that has a red slot can be made into a devil dr busting weapon. Heck, it doesn't even need a redslot. All it needs to be is cold iron/metalline/silver etc. It is nice to be able to pick up a eSoS, slot it with silver and go kick some devil butt with out needed an augment slot.

you really need to read the entire post...

HES build dont have power attack, aka why is on the topic.

please, read before this senseless answer.

[elraido]

you really need to read the entire post...

HES build dont have power attack, aka why is on the topic.

please, read before this senseless answer.

I did read it. :rolleyes: You were also giving a blanket statement as to why a paladin could never keep up to a fighter in DPS.

[Ralmeth]

MANY Paladins use Extend Spell.






Power Attack is definitely more important to the THF builds. For a Sword and Board build, not so much.

Besides, if CE and PA still work the way they used to, you cannot have both on at the same time.

If you're going S&B as the OP said he's going to do, you're going for defense/AC otherwise, why would you be using a shield? So in this case, CE is better for the +5 to AC.




Tower Shield proficiency is CRITICAL for a S&B build for a few reasons.

1) Having the Shield Mastery feat allows 20% of ALL incoming physical damage to be blocked if you're using a Tower Shield. Only 15% gets blocked if you have a Large shield. 10% gets blocked with a Small shield.

2) Perhaps the BEST shield in the game for a S&B build is Levik's Defender and it's a Tower Shield. Levik's Defender not only grants the highest Blocking DR of any other shield in the game, when it is paired with Levik's Bracers, the set grants an occasional Heal spell on a hit, +3 to AC and 20% more Threat (Hate) generation. This is an awesome set for a S&B tank-type.

3) Tower Shields grant the highest addition to AC which is, of course, something you want if you're trying to build an AC toon. If you use Levik's Defender, you can add up to +4 of your Dex Modifier to AC instead of the Tower Shield's normal +2 add. This is because Levik's Defender is made of mithril.

Neutronstar, please don't think that just because you have a Pally tank that works for you that this is the only way to do things. I've been playing and experimenting with Pally tanks for over 5 years to understand what does and does not work well.

Power attack - This is an awesome feat for a Pally tank. There are so many situations where you don't need the 5 extra AC but an extra 5 or 10 points of damage per swing (S&B or THF) is much more helpful. For example, in Amrath explorer, Genesis Point, and some other Amrath quests I will fight S&B with power attack on and not CE turned. Only when tanking Horoth or when you are taking lots of melee damage will I turn CE on. Yes, you can only use one at a time, but it is very helpful to have the ability to use one or the other. This is much more useful than the THF line. FYI, I have power attack turned on probably 90% - 95% of the time.

Tower shield - I have Levik's defender on my last main, but I use the Epic Swashbuckler on my current main so I know the differences. Aside from the extra DR from shield mastery (shield blocking DR isn't that helpful because how often do you really shield block? the heal rarely procs, etc), the Epic Swashbuckler is much better. The guardbreaking is great crowd control, not to mention the exceptional dex +2 for 1 more AC, the +4 AC insight bonus that I don't have to slot somewhere else (DT armor or Min II). So Tower shield is not a MUST have. I do agree it is worth considering but it is one of half a dozen feats that are worth consider.

[elraido]

Neutronstar, please don't think that just because you have a Pally tank that works for you that this is the only way to do things. I've been playing and experimenting with Pally tanks for over 5 years to understand what does and does not work well.

Power attack - This is an awesome feat for a Pally tank. There are so many situations where you don't need the 5 extra AC but an extra 5 or 10 points of damage per swing (S&B or THF) is much more helpful. For example, in Amrath explorer, Genesis Point, and some other Amrath quests I will fight S&B with power attack on and not CE turned. Only when tanking Horoth or when you are taking lots of melee damage will I turn CE on. Yes, you can only use one at a time, but it is very helpful to have the ability to use one or the other. This is much more useful than the THF line. FYI, I have power attack turned on probably 90% - 95% of the time.

Tower shield - I have Levik's defender on my last main, but I use the Epic Swashbuckler on my current main so I know the differences. Aside from the extra DR from shield mastery (shield blocking DR isn't that helpful because how often do you really shield block? the heal rarely procs, etc), the Epic Swashbuckler is much better. The guardbreaking is great crowd control, not to mention the exceptional dex +2 for 1 more AC, the +4 AC insight bonus that I don't have to slot somewhere else (DT armor or Min II). So Tower shield is not a MUST have. I do agree it is worth considering but it is one of half a dozen feats that are worth consider.

I agree. I have power attack on 90% of the time on my tank. For most of the game, when you are running around with, say a 75 AC with power attack on, vs 80 with CE on...they are going to miss you anyway. In those situations 5 damage > 5 AC. If you are tanking suli or horoth, then yeah...go AC.

I also agree with the shield. Normally, I do use Leviks, just for the DR. But sometimes I do swap it up with the epic swashbuckler. Even a tier I bucker, the ac difference is only 1. Not a huge deal breaker. On bosses though, I would rather have the 20% dr from leviks.

The thing about being a tank, is to be flexible to the situation. If you need DPS, have a DPS mode. If you need a survivability mode, have one of those as well.

[NeutronStar]

All,

Thanks for all the feedback regarding my Paladin tanking theory and experience.

I agree there is defnitely more than one way to do it. I was just trying to present some options to the OP that really didn't require a lot of Epic grind besides getting the Epic Chimera's Fang itself, of course.

(Note: I don't consider getting the bracers and shield from Hound that much of a grind. It certainly isn't the grind that running certain Epic quests over and over and over for 3 Abishai's Might items, their scrolls, their seals, and their shards can be.)

The argument for PA clearly has a lot of advocates and I will take another look at it and see if I can recommend fitting it into a Def. of Siberys. I'm not optimistic though for one reason:

I forgot to take into account that the Epic Chimera's Fang is a Bastard Sword meaning yet ANOTHER feat (Exotic Weapon Prof.) the OP will have to add.


It looks like the OP will have to drop Improved Shield Bash to add Exotic Proficiency: Bastard Sword and I have to be honest, I am unwilling to recommend he completely drop Combat Expertise for PA.

I'm also pretty unwilling to recommend dropping the Paladin capstone in order to get two fighter levels for the two extra proficiencies.

I'm not sure what I would do if I were in the OP's shoes.


EDIT: As a couple of people pointed out below, the Bastard Sword Proficiency is necessary as the Sentinel Dragon Marks take care of that! I have since edited my first post in this thread to include PA.

[karl_k0ch]

I forgot to take into account that the Epic Chimera's Fang is a Bastard Sword meaning yet ANOTHER feat (Exotic Weapon Prof.) the OP will have to add.

The Dragonmarks take care of that.

[elraido]

All,

Thanks for all the feedback regarding my Paladin tanking theory and experience.

I agree there is defnitely more than one way to do it. I was just trying to present some options to the OP that really didn't require a lot of Epic grind besides getting the Epic Chimera's Fang itself, of course.

(Note: I don't consider getting the bracers and shield from Hound that much of a grind. It certainly isn't the grind that running certain Epic quests over and over and over for 3 items, their scrolls, their seals, and their shards can be.)

The argument for PA clearly has a lot of advocates and I will take another look at it and see if I can recommend fitting it into a Def. of Siberys. I'm not optimistic though for one reason:

I forgot to take into account that the Epic Chimera's Fang is a Bastard Sword meaning yet ANOTHER feat (Exotic Weapon Prof.) the OP will have to add.


It looks like the OP will have to drop Improved Shield Bash to add Exotic Proficiency: Bastard Sword and I have to be honest, I am unwilling to recommend he completely drop Combat Expertise for PA.

I'm also pretty unwilling to recommend dropping the Paladin capstone in order to get two fighter levels for the two extra proficiencies.

I'm not sure what I would do if I were in the OP's shoes.

He will not need to take bastard sword. It is given as a feat by the weapon when you have a dragonmark of house d.

[NeutronStar]

The Dragonmarks take care of that.

He will not need to take bastard sword. It is given as a feat by the weapon when you have a dragonmark of house d.

Wonderful!

Now I can recommend taking Power Attack over Improved Shield Bash. Thank you!



EDIT:The post with the feats I recommended has been edited to drop the bastard sword feat and include PA.

[Szordrinn]

I'm coming back with a new build. On this attempt, i give up paladin capstone to make the focus on feats, taking every bonus feats i can from different classes. But, to be complete, it would need iCrit : slash, i'm couting on keen of eChimera's fang and Mineral II GS 2H weapon in DPS mode (or Hellstroke greataxe if i can craft it).

What do you think ?


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.9.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Level 20 Lawful Good Human Male
(4 Fighter \ 14 Paladin \ 2 Monk)
Hit Points: 373
Spell Points: 170
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 25
Reflex: 17
Will: 14

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 17 26
Dexterity 14 16
Constitution 14 17
Intelligence 11 13
Wisdom 8 10
Charisma 14 16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Starting Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20)
Balance 2 17

Diplomacy 4 5

Intimidate 6 29

Jump 3 21

Tumble 3 4

Use Magic Device 4 14

Level 1 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Sentinel
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Paladin
Feat: (Human Bonus) Two Handed Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 3 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Shield Mastery


Level 4 (Fighter)
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Dodge


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Lesser Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 7 (Paladin)


Level 8 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Combat Expertise


Level 9 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Dragonmark of Sentinel


Level 10 (Paladin)


Level 11 (Fighter)


Level 12 (Fighter)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Bash
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 13 (Paladin)


Level 14 (Paladin)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting


Level 16 (Paladin)


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Shield Mastery


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Enhancement: Paladin Armor Class Boost I

Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost II

Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I

Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I

Enhancement: Human Adaptability Strength I

Enhancement: Human Greater Adaptability Constitution I

Enhancement: Human Improved Recovery II

Enhancement: Deneith Intimidation I

Enhancement: Human Versatility III

Enhancement: Way of the Patient Tortoise I

Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I

Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III

Enhancement: Paladin Focus of Good I

Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I

Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice II

Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II

Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I

Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III

Enhancement: Paladin Defender of Siberys II

Enhancement: Racial Toughness III

Enhancement: Fighter Strength I

Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV

Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might II




Planned final gearset :

RH : Epic Chimera's Fang
LH : Levik's Defender
Helm : Epic Chimera's Crown (+1 exc dexterity)
Goggles : blindness immunity of dodge +1 (cannith crafted)
Armor : Epic cavalry plate (slotted +2 max dex bonus)
Bracers : Thaarak bracelet
Ring 1 : Epic Seal of the earth
Boots : Greensteel boots (HP + disintegration guard)
Gloves : Epic Spectral gloves
Belt : Green Steel conc op (+5 charisma skills)
Trinket : Epic Brawn's spirit (slotted +2 luck)
Ring 2 : Epic Ring of the silver concord (slotted +1 exc strength)
Necklae : Epic Grim's bracelet (slotted heavy fort)
Cloak : Epic Envenomed cloak