Impossible to make good HElf melee build?

[Cold_Stele]

Is there any melee build out there that a HElf can do better at than another race?

I'm thinking TWF Khopesh (for swings/minute) coupled with high healing amp from Monk dilly enhancements is at least something that makes the most of being HElf.

[manumase]

i like str wis monk with rog dilly to up sneak attack dmg from 3d6 to 6d6 and still have very good stats

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Helves angel?

Pure monk?

Off of the top of my head no other race (imo) is as good as a helf for pure monk, and the helves angel build really is all about the stuff a helf gets.

[Seamonkeysix]

Helves Angel rocks!

With human versatility and access to helf dilly, I think Helf makes one of the most potent potential DPS builds out there.

[PurdueDave]

Helf would be my second choice for FVS, first for FVS:AoV. Probably first for monk but I haven't given it a lot of thought. Probably second for tactics kensai (based on no numerical advantage, mind you).

[SetofBs]

As far as full ******, maximizing DPS builds, Helf doesn't cut it. But if you want a build that can do more than one thing it is one of the top racial choices IMO. It's probably the top race out there for versatility and is a great choice for many builds. I love the race because it allows more creativity in character building.

[zebidos]

Is there any melee build out there that a HElf can do better at than another race?

I'm thinking TWF Khopesh (for swings/minute) coupled with high healing amp from Monk dilly enhancements is at least something that makes the most of being HElf.

Nothing wrong with being versatile and not being a min/maxer. -2 to 4 to a end game strength score vs say a half orc is really not a big deal, DPS has alot more to do with player skill then just base stats.

If you want to make a melee HElf make one. :)

[LuKaSu]

I have to second the monk idea. I have a str/wis monk with a cleric dilly, and it really helps to have a monk that can wand heal between battles and throw a raise dead on a cleric that dies too far away from the shrine

[Cold_Stele]

I should clarify by saying it would be for a TR with full range of LitII, MinII khops etc, etc.

HElves Angel is a ranged build IIRC.

And whilst there's nothing wrong with not being a min/maxer, a HOrc hits for 13(?) pts more per swing with a two hander. You just can't ignore that unless you're bringing something else to the table...

[Dark-Star]

I should clarify by saying it would be for a TR with full range of LitII, MinII khops etc, etc.

HElves Angel is a ranged build IIRC.

And whilst there's nothing wrong with not being a min/maxer, a HOrc hits for 13(?) pts more per swing with a two hander. You just can't ignore that unless you're bringing something else to the table...

The Helves Angel is a melee build with 20 seconds of incredibly high burst DPS every 100.

It can hold its own in kills with pure melees and Blitz builds, even when those are run by some of the best players in the game.

As to your original question.

Half Orcs are best for:

Most builds with haste boost
THF builds
Most rogue splash builds

Half Elves are best for:

Arcane Archers
Monks
Non-rogue TWF builds

Half Elves can be an incredibly strong race if built right, most people have just not caught on yet or are turned off by the way they look.

[Seamonkeysix]

The Helves Angel is a melee build with 20 seconds of incredibly high burst DPS every 100.

It can hold its own in kills with pure melees and Blitz builds, even when those are run by some of the best players in the game.

As to your original question.

Half Orcs are best for:

Most builds with haste boost
THF builds
Most rogue splash builds

Half Elves are best for:

Arcane Archers
Monks
Non-rogue TWF builds

Half Elves can be an incredibly strong race if built right, most people have just not caught on yet or are turned off by the way they look.

Just to give some props to Dark on the Helves Angel build, I am currently running one as a TR (at level 15 atm, so I am not even getting Kensai II yet). Unfortunately, I had an FvS past life, so I am not even getting everything this build can offer and it is probably the most fun I have had in DDO in 5 years. The thought of TRing again isn't appealing, but the build is such that I actually plan to use some +5 hearts of wood and change levels around at cap so I can get a paladin PL before I TR again.

Given what this toon can do with a 34 point build and an FvS past life, I can't wait to see how he performs as a 36 point build with pally PL. The rogue dilly for sneaks and versatility + the burst DPS makes for one of the most survivable, fun, and potent DPS builds out there.

[Bodic]

THF Helf pally dil 17/2/1 bard rogue fighter virtuosso

[Cold_Stele]

Half Elves can be an incredibly strong race if built right, most people have just not caught on yet or are turned off by the way they look.

Hmm, I'm genuinely trying to come up with something but the synergies just seem bad to me -

- Pure Ftr/Barb rogue dilly is not as good as HOrc PA, THF enh. and extra Str combined.

- For 12Ftr/6/2 builds Monk is a bad choice for pure melee TWF as eChaosblades are an eventual goal (need unbuffed, no gear changed UMD30 to freely switch weapons in/out).

- if you splash 2 Rog as part of your 12Ftr/6/2 you 'waste' some of your rogue dilly.

- Monk dilly could make a strong healing amp build but requires Wis 13 - 5 wasted attribute points.

- Cleric dilly also requires Wis 13, and is easily replaced when soloing by just taking a hireling.

[voodoogroves]

They do look atrocious.

DPS-only benefits are really constrained to primarily Rogue and Fighter dilettantes; the others provide utility and/or defenses. Fighter is handy for any tactics build (like some Acrobats, Barbarians, etc.) and comes with that handy +1 STR. Rogue is obviously for the SA damage.

Still, if you want more than just DPS out of your dilettante, I think there's a lot of merit in Paladin and Monk or one of the casters.

[voodoogroves]

Barb 20 fighter dilettante
Rogue 20 fighter dilettante
Monk 20 fighter or rogue dilettante (tactics or DPS)

Any of the above in a mix class w/ fighter if a tactics build or rogue for DPS
... monk2/ranger18 - rogue
... monk2/fighter18 - rogue
... monk2/paladin18 - fighter or rogue
... monk3or6or7/rogue - fighter
... rogue2/barb18 - fighter

The bigger benefit, as I mentioned, might be in the addition of capabilities for utility or defenses ...

monk2/sorc18 - paladin
rogue/bard mixes - paladin
etc.

[Cold_Stele]

Barb 20 fighter dilettante
Rogue 20 fighter dilettante
Monk 20 fighter or rogue dilettante (tactics or DPS)

Any of the above in a mix class w/ fighter if a tactics build or rogue for DPS
... monk2/ranger18 - rogue
... monk2/fighter18 - rogue
... monk2/paladin18 - fighter or rogue
... monk3or6or7/rogue - fighter
... rogue2/barb18 - fighter

For all of these you mention though - I could surely make a better build by going HOrc for max DPS or WF for DPS, tactics & immunities?

[voodoogroves]

For all of these you mention though - I could go HOrc for max DPS or WF for DPS, tactics & immunities...

Heh ... you asked "good" not "best". Sure a Dwarf or WF is likely to out-tactics the HElf, etc.

I think, though, that's the point. You can do a ton with the options. You can have GOOD tactics, but it may not be the best. It is nice, though, to stack on another point of an attribute (fighter gives STR, which a monk or rog/barb doesn't get as a class enhancement, for instance).

But yeah - I find the real power of half-elves in my experience to be not in primary DPS specialization, but in the other areas. They make very tough Undying Court FVS, for instance, pure or multiclass. They are a great way to add some healing amp, CHA to saves, etc. onto a build. I've got a few HElfs in-flight, a few more planned on TRs/alts.

Monk 2 / Air Sorc 18 w/ Pally dilettante (save boost + wand usage for pre-UMD healing)
Melee FVS (undying court) w/ Rogue dilettante (3d6 sneak damage)
Bard / Rogue w/ Pally dilettante (save boost)
Monk/Rogue Acrobat w/ Fighter dilettante (additional healing amp, STR and trip/stun boosts)

Then I'm going to run a HElves Angel once I decide I don't have bows enough to avoid it.

[xSeverinax]

I am running a pure rogue Assassin III Half Elf, I took the fighter dilly to begin with, but at Lvl 20 re-specced to a Barb dilly. That gave a +1 to con, an extra 3 lvls of Barb toughness for HP and some minor DR. I now have 454 HP unbuffed and without GS item for HP or Madstone boots. By the time you chuck in shrine bonus, rage bonus, a +45HP item from GS and Madstone's I will come in at well over 500HP, and I still don't have greater false life, only improved false life at the moment.

[Deathlos]

Hmm, I'm genuinely trying to come up with something but the synergies just seem bad to me -

- Pure Ftr/Barb rogue dilly is not as good as HOrc PA, THF enh. and extra Str combined.

- For 12Ftr/6/2 builds Monk is a bad choice for pure melee TWF as eChaosblades are an eventual goal (need unbuffed, no gear changed UMD30 to freely switch weapons in/out).

- if you splash 2 Rog as part of your 12Ftr/6/2 you 'waste' some of your rogue dilly.

- Monk dilly could make a strong healing amp build but requires Wis 13 - 5 wasted attribute points.

- Cleric dilly also requires Wis 13, and is easily replaced when soloing by just taking a hireling.

You keep mentioning THF and all the benifits Horcs get from it, yet only list TWF weapons...

Yes, horc gets more str, more PA, But helfs get a wider varity, the ability to swap out stats to not only accommodate the items you have now, but also in the future*human adaptability line* then you also not only get the AP boosts from your own class but also the human Vert. line, allowing you to stack on a +4dmg to a +40% haste! not to mention if you go rogue dilly you get 3d6 sneak attack, or cleric dilly for increased survivability.

In the end, its your choice, you want the Extra Str and PA line from Horc and go as a min maxer? or do you want to utilize the differnt functions of Helf and have the potental to deal so much more, or deal just a little less.

*Jig saw voice*
The choice is yours.

[Cold_Stele]

You keep mentioning THF and all the benifits Horcs get from it, yet only list TWF weapons...

Yes, horc gets more str, more PA, But helfs get a wider varity, the ability to swap out stats to not only accommodate the items you have now, but also in the future*human adaptability line* then you also not only get the AP boosts from your own class but also the human Vert. line, allowing you to stack on a +4dmg to a +40% haste! not to mention if you go rogue dilly you get 3d6 sneak attack, or cleric dilly for increased survivability.

I don't mention THF as HElf can't even compete. Only getting +3d6 SA per hand on TWF allows HElf to catch up.

The things you mention - HV, SA, etc still are inferior to HOrc.

As for Cleric dilly - you're really going to spend 5pts on Wis 13? Monk or Pally maybe, but on a Barb or Ftr???

[Cold_Stele]

Well, after thinking about it for most of the day this is the only melee build I can think of where you wouldn't be inferior to another race -

HElf Ftr20 or Ftr12/Barb6/Rog2 maybe Ftr12/Pally6/Rog2
Monk dilly
36(!) point build
Str 18, Dex 14+3 tome, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8
2 x U9 Vampiric Khops, eventually replaced by 2 x eChaosblades
Enhancements - as much Healing Amp as you can afford without compromising FHB, Ftr Str, HV, Kensai etc. (and it'll be very tight)

Basically a higher DPS version of the 'Solar Pheonix', although if you're using FB I you're frustrating your own attempts at self healing.

Can anyone else do better?

[wax_on_wax_off]

18 paladin / 2 monk. AC hate tank with some of the highest AC numbers in the game possible. Enough DPS to hold aggro. Rogue Dilettante for trash DPS. Helf or human are certainly best for this build.

18 rogue / 2 monk. Tactics/DPS, fighter dilettante. Stunning fist DC of 41 to 45 depending on gear at level 20. Stunning blow to match. Dwarf can have 1 point higher stunning fist DC but much less DPS. Lots of sneak attack to make those stunning fists hurt.

12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 monk. Helves Angel. Melee DPS + Ranged DPS. Rogue dilettante.

12 monk / 6 ranger / 2 fighter. U9, earth stance III arcane archer with good melee and monk versatility to go with it.

20 Paladin. TWF'ing. Trying to qualify for TWF'ing and DMIV on a halforc is brutal to the point that a helf will have a similar strength. Not to mention that with the changes to intimidate you want to take that as well as UMD (requiring 10 starting int with a +2 tome to pick up some balance). 16, 15, 14, 10, 8, 13 for horc or 16, 15, 14, 10, 8, 14 for helf, rogue dilettante for TWF'ing DPS. 2 level ups need to go into charisma for helf with a +4 tome, 3 for horc; strength is the same for either. Then it is only comparing the power attack enhancements vs sneak attack. Much of a muchness, other helf attributes give them the edge (skill boost for UMD, healing amp, more HP etc).

Ranger 18 / fighter 1 / monk 1, half-elf, rogue dilettante (more HP and sneak attack than an exploiter)

Ranger 12 / 7 rogue or 7 fighter / 1 monk, tactics build with sneak attack, unarmed and/or khopesh.

Ranger 20, tempest (I keep hearing rumours of a new tempest-style capstone ...)

Monk 20, dark, 6d6 sneak attack and higher wisdom is very, very nice.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Is there any melee build out there that a HElf can do better at than another race?

I'm thinking TWF Khopesh (for swings/minute) coupled with high healing amp from Monk dilly enhancements is at least something that makes the most of being HElf.

The Rogue dilettante is incredibly strong for any build that doesn't take Rogue levels.

Pure Monks, Monk 2/FvS 18 builds, Rangers without Rogue splash (especially those going for AC and/or healing amp), Pure Paladins (if you can live without Extend compared to Human), and so on.

[Cold_Stele]

The Rogue dilettante is incredibly strong for any build that doesn't take Rogue levels.

Not correct, for the following reasons -

1. HElves don't get the amount of SA where they out-DPS everything like a pure Rogue. Even when they get it they're still out-DPSed by a HOrc of the same class (I can link some numbers Consumer ran if you wish).

2. SA is useless soloing and probably whilst pugging too (especially if you're a TR). If you're using a RadII weapon to get your SA then you're losing DPS (a) by not being HOrc (b) by not using LitII - you're now making a sub-optimal gear choice to try to compensate for you're sub-optimal race choice.

3. Best gear for a melee comes with hate generation (Greater Vulkoor's Might, even CC cutlass).

4. In U9 'helpless' your SA won't scale but HOrc's extra Str, PA, etc will, so HElf will be even further behind.

[Tumarek]

Well with changes to bluff in U9 and helf extra bluff SA will be much more usefull even while soloing.

TWF:
Horc get 4 extra STR makes 2 per hit, 3 from PA what makes 5 per swing non crit. With kopesh thats 4 * 1/20 *19/20 *3 *5 = 2.85... so ~8 extra damage per swing

Helf gets 3d6 so thats 3*3.5 = 10.5 per swing

Yes it is situational but in a group and using the bluff threat reduction it should be no problem to keep aggro away and so get SA most of the time. At this point Helfs win clearly. Will work in many epics and such. But against undead and such DPS will fall very low.

THF: Horc is winner.... here

[Entelech]

Lessee... Better than any other race...

(1) Intimitank

(2) DPS Rogue (Hello Bluff and Diplomacy)

(3) Any kind of melee build that wants self healing via wands and scrolls. Or good saves. Or Sneak Attack without Rogue levels. Or Healing Amp.

Yeah, that pretty much covers it...

If you want to go full-on DPS ****** go with the Warforged Barb 20 with 700+ hitpoints, and take the +100% fortification feat. (emphasis on '******'). If you want a bit of self-sufficiency, no race is AS GOOD as Half Elves.

[Ralmeth]

Actually, the best part of being a HElf is the cool little jig you do when you /dance
;)

[maddmatt70]

Well, after thinking about it for most of the day this is the only melee build I can think of where you wouldn't be inferior to another race -

HElf Ftr20 or Ftr12/Barb6/Rog2 maybe Ftr12/Pally6/Rog2
Monk dilly
36(!) point build
Str 18, Dex 14+3 tome, Con 15, Int 8, Wis 14, Cha 8
2 x U9 Vampiric Khops, eventually replaced by 2 x eChaosblades
Enhancements - as much Healing Amp as you can afford without compromising FHB, Ftr Str, HV, Kensai etc. (and it'll be very tight)

Basically a higher DPS version of the 'Solar Pheonix', although if you're using FB I you're frustrating your own attempts at self healing.

Can anyone else do better?

Dark Star's analysis is spot on in regards to dps. Secondly, are you opposed to manyshot burst dps with arcane archer or do you have to melee all the time? Finally, why not make a healing amp tank build with good (not necessarily great) dps. In part to pick up the pally past life I have been thinking about making a 12 pally 6 ranger 2 X with monk dilletant and having max amp gear which should allow it to tank elite Horoth (when doing elite Horoth and sulu) with a very high amp and the healers using no resources beyond scrolls and it also has arcane archer for awesome burst dps. You could tweak that build and make it 12 fighter 6 pally 2 rogue or something like that and have some sweet dps and be an awesome tank.

[Cold_Stele]

Dark Star's analysis is spot on in regards to dps.I don't doubt for a second that Dark does just as good vs HOrcs as he says, but that's because he's a better player, not because his build's better (or as good) at melee.



Secondly, are you opposed to manyshot burst dps with arcane archer or do you have to melee all the time?

I'd resent being pushed into AA to make HElf work as much as I'm currently resenting TRing into ridiculous looking HOrc to make 'max DPS' work.


Finally, why not make a healing amp tank build with good (not necessarily great) dps.

In the post you quoted of mine that's what I was thinking too. It doesn't even have to be a tank. Every feat could be geared towards DPS and just put some AP aside for Healing Amp. Would really need a couple of eChaosblades and eGloves of Claw to make it work though.

IIRC other Healing Amp builds make a lot of DPS compromises (like Whirling Steel Strike) so this is something that HElf could excel in - I really don't know if your raid leader is going to give a cr@p about that however...


For what it's worth once I hit 20 again with my HOrc I do think I will TR straight away to 36 point HElf (which is needed for Cleric/Monk dill anyways tbh).

I'm still not convinced I've found a 'good' build though...

[chodelord]

my build cowardly lion

2 monk 18 pal twf rogue dil

skill point in diplomacy

use diplo to keep aggro off and keep those sneak attacks rolling in

2 monk gives evasion, feats and the hound path for +2 to hit flanked
------

it isn't a full ****** build but it is pretty fun and the concept of a paladin passing aggro back to his teammates is hilarious

[Nyvn]

Not correct, for the following reasons -

1. HElves don't get the amount of SA where they out-DPS everything like a pure Rogue. Even when they get it they're still out-DPSed by a HOrc of the same class (I can link some numbers Consumer ran if you wish).

2. SA is useless soloing and probably whilst pugging too (especially if you're a TR). If you're using a RadII weapon to get your SA then you're losing DPS (a) by not being HOrc (b) by not using LitII - you're now making a sub-optimal gear choice to try to compensate for you're sub-optimal race choice.

3. Best gear for a melee comes with hate generation (Greater Vulkoor's Might, even CC cutlass).

4. In U9 'helpless' your SA won't scale but HOrc's extra Str, PA, etc will, so HElf will be even further behind.

All true HE doesn't reach the same levels of DPS that HO does, they however bring other things to the table, such as healing amp and social skills. They don't give up as much dps to gain healing amp either. IMO they make can make very strong hate tank with healing amp builds. Or high, but not max DPS, with great survivability.

[Cold_Stele]

It's obvious you don't want to play anything other than a full ****** max dps build and that is your only metric for what makes a 'good' build, so just roll a HOrc again. srsly.

Where to begin?

1. This game is all about max DPS, ignoring that fact is ********.

2. Seriously, it's not like the HElf dillies are that great. Survivability? Sure if you sink 5 stat points into Wis you can take Cleric dilly and toss Heal scrolls at level 15. Or you could go HOrc Blitz and have '********' DPS, evasion and full UMD for your Heal scrolls. Have you even looked at the HOrc enhancements? Have you seen all the perfect synergies with Kensai and/or Barb (cheap extra action boosts and/or power rage)

It's very difficult to ignore that.

But, as I said, imo HElf can make a great healing amp DPS. Good luck finding 2x eChaosblade and a eGloves of Claw scroll though.


They don't give up as much dps to gain healing amp either.

Agreed, with the exception of the 5 stat points. Will only work on a TR imo.

[Nyvn]

Even if you don't use the monk dille the rogue dille combined with racial healing amp provides a good trade off of DPS and surviability. Because they're not "full ****** DPS" they have a pretty good chance to get their sneak attack damage. Granted Str and power attack enhancements work on more enemy types.

[AylinIsAwesome]

Not correct, for the following reasons -

If something pushes you towards Half-Elf on your build, for example you need something that Half-Orc cannot provide, then Half-Elf is not sup-optimal here.

For example, there's this Ranger (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=307104) I designed a while ago that would not possibly work with Half-Orc, since it would be both a drop of Healing Amp and of AC. Another melee build that won't work as Half-Orc is 2 Monk/18 FvS, because of both proficiency (though this can be gotten around by using Master's Touch scrolls) and the +1 to-hit/+4 damage the Half-Elf gets for faith abilities.

Or a 2 Monk/18 Fighter Stalwart Defender with Paladin Dilettante. Decent healing amp (132% with just ship buff), a max AC of 103 (98 for non-TRs), 674 HP before any potions, and all saves at 40 or higher. A Half-Orc of this type would have a bit more threat (but with the changes to Intimidate in U9, this doesn't matter since the Half-Elf could still get a threat of 215%) and 3 more Haste Boosts (though the Half-Elf can still have 9), but at the same time would lose AC, healing amp, and saves. The Half-Elf here makes a much sturdier character than the Half-Orc could.

[Aerendil]

I am running a pure rogue Assassin III Half Elf, I took the fighter dilly to begin with, but at Lvl 20 re-specced to a Barb dilly. That gave a +1 to con, an extra 3 lvls of Barb toughness for HP and some minor DR. I now have 454 HP unbuffed and without GS item for HP or Madstone boots. By the time you chuck in shrine bonus, rage bonus, a +45HP item from GS and Madstone's I will come in at well over 500HP, and I still don't have greater false life, only improved false life at the moment.

Did the exact same thing with my Rogue.
The extra hps from Barb really help.

I'd say Rogue w/ Barb dile; Monk w/ Rogue dile; and Bard w/ Ranger (if ranged), Pally, or Rogue dile all work wonders.

[voodoogroves]

If you're constraining yourself to Half-Elf as a build-constraint, being the absolute tops in melee is tough though you can certainly optimize Half Elves for melee; again the big strengths for melee builds are:

... Fighter dilettante (tactics, +1 STR) which is useful on any build not splashing fighter like an exploiter, monk, acrobat, whatever ...
... or Rogue dilettante (3d6 sneak) which is useful on any build that isn't a hate-magnet, esp. TWF builds that have the DEX anyway
... ability to pick/choose stats, esp. on classes that have several attributes that could be useful (Pally for STR/CHA/CON, monk for STR/WIS/CON, etc.)

Beyond that, their real advantage is probably flexibility, though this isn't a direct-melee-DPS impact.

... Stacking AA on non traditional builds (like Helve's Angel)
... Healing Amp
... Minor WIS to AC on light-armor toons w/ Monk dilettante
... Minor save boost on evasion splashers (plus early wand use) w/ Paladin dilettante
... Weapon profs w/ fighter dilettante (usually done on a non-prime melee class, so not top tier DPS)
... Social skill aggro management (Intim for hate, bluff/diplomacy for others)
... Bit of HP from Barb for squishies

[maddmatt70]

Where to begin?

1. This game is all about max DPS, ignoring that fact is ********.

2. Seriously, it's not like the HElf dillies are that great. Survivability? Sure if you sink 5 stat points into Wis you can take Cleric dilly and toss Heal scrolls at level 15. Or you could go HOrc Blitz and have '********' DPS, evasion and full UMD for your Heal scrolls. Have you even looked at the HOrc enhancements? Have you seen all the perfect synergies with Kensai and/or Barb (cheap extra action boosts and/or power rage)

It's very difficult to ignore that.

But, as I said, imo HElf can make a great healing amp DPS. Good luck finding 2x eChaosblade and a eGloves of Claw scroll though.



Agreed, with the exception of the 5 stat points. Will only work on a TR imo.

Quite honestly you are missing something and I know some of the Ghallanda folks play this style for which a h-elf is very good for. I currently have just a basic elven ranger with all the ranger healing enhancements and no healing amp and a torque that is just level 16. With the torque she never really runs out of mana and her cure seroius wounds is hitting for 80ish a pop. Now if I had amp and quicken and maximize and a better spell pool I could be hitting for 200-300+ a pop without interruption with 10-15 of these before I run out of mana, but then with the torque you would rarely run out of mana. The advantage is greater personal surviveability, but there is a bigger advantage to being able to insta heal yourself; thereby, loosing the nannybot. Favored soul/clerics that can blade barrior entire epic quests are one thing, but if they do not produce in that manner I am convinced the party is always better off without them. I run bard healers all the time in epics, but a party of self healers that do not need external healing can be very efficient especially if the people short man the end game all the time. I hate waiting for the lfm do not you?