ToD: Sucka Punch!

[rimble]

ToD got changed. I shoulda probably kept this to Lamannia Discussion (http://forums.ddo.com/forumdisplay.php?f=94), just wanted y'all to see it.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Wow. How absolutely garbage. The save thing would not be so bad, but the negative energy damage is ****.

[SolarDawning]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.

[rimble]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.

Assuming you get past both of those Fortitude saves.

[voodoogroves]

Possibly.

I'm curious as to the DC calculation. Even with decent stats a +10 stunner is required to really land stunning blow/fist reliably and that's the same target. An additional 25% that you now have to buff first on top of 250 is still less than 500. If the DC were like assassinate (10+monk level+X instead of 10+1/2 monk level) then it might land 500 more. As it is, no.

What it does mean is that many things are simply unaffected (at least if implemented similar to the 3.5 SRD base definitions). All those mobs w/ deathward are going to be immune. That's quite a lot in the end game. Prey on the Hunter, for instance. All constructs, undead, etc. Everything in epic.

[SINIBYTE]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.

ZOMG! You mean I can spend 90 Ki to maybe do 312 damage?

[Mobeius]

Really? Who didnt see a TOD nerf coming?

I realized it as soon as I logged on and saw 15 guildies logged on and only 4 were not dark monks. Saw that and thought "Yep, I smell nerf."

Old saying... If its probably too good to be true, it probably is.

I was holding off conclusions about dark side monks till U7, if it didnt make a mention or cut by then I would have had made a dark side monk.

[rimble]

Really? Who didnt see a TOD nerf coming?

A lot of people actually. The extent of the nerf is a bit surprising however. Just leave off the Negative Energy bit and I'd be fine with it.

[Mobeius]

A lot of people actually. The extent of the nerf is a bit surprising however. Just leave off the Negative Energy bit and I'd be fine with it.

I can see the reasoning for negative energy though considering light side is positive energy and they are to be diametrically opposed.

[Angelus_dead]

All those mobs w/ deathward are going to be immune. That's quite a lot in the end game. Prey on the Hunter, for instance. All constructs, undead, etc. Everything in epic.
No, Epic monsters don't have Deathward. I don't think the Prey giants do either.

They have Deathblock, which is different and weaker.

[Odin's_Hugin]

I like the change, though. Touch of Death should apply for living stuff, in a way to KILLING them. It's like a dark-aligned move that makes you project dark (aka negative) energy into a living being, killing them.

Besides, every class should have some weakness.

* Light monks are good against undead and tainted creatures, while being relatively nice against the rest. Same as dark monks against constructs. Have moderately good buffs.

* Dark Monks are very good at killing any living creatures (250-1500 damage), while doing very bad against undead. Same as light monks against constructs. Have moderately useful de-buffs (dark;dark;dark finisher is more useful now).

So, dark monk STILL have more dps than light, only a bit more situational. Light can do moderately well on all situations, while dark can excel in some and be not very good in others.

Balance.

[Mobeius]

A clarification, since I've seen this misstated a lot:

Deathblock effects (including the Epic Ward and most similar effects) do not protect against Touch of Death.

The Death Ward spell does protect against negative energy, but is significantly rarer than generic deathblocks.


A little more FYI... basically if a mob doesnt have death WARD the TOD will still take affect. That inlcudes Prey on Hunter giants and such.

[Asymetric_War]

Just hit 10 on my Ninja/Assassin TR. First life I was very pleased with the build and have been grinding very hard to cap her again. Now... I think i'm going to focus on other toons. Adding in a fort save and nerfing the damage type means that against undead (where she needs the damage boost the most due to lost sneak attack) are now immune and that against virtually everything else she'll only ever get half damage. Once again, Turbine ****s builders for no good reason in favor of single-class WoW-style toons. It's complete and utter ****. at 12 enhancement points to get it it's by far the most expensive ability dark monks get. With these changes it's not worth even a fraction of that.

No DM would dare to change the rules on their players like this and if they did they'd be looking for another group very quickly.

It's not the first time the devs have changed the rules dramatically and broken one of my builds and I know it won't be the last. I suppose it's part of playing an MMO, but it sure as hell isn't a part I like. This change doesn't help the game and it doesn't help monks. In fact the only people who are going to come out ahead on this one are the bean counters at Turbine who are going to make a killing off all the people forced to buy Hearts of Wood to fix their now-broken builds.

and I suppose that's really what it's all about, isn't it?

[Resilian]

So, with the nerf, is it going to make more sense going Dex/Wis Wind/Earth instead of STR + Fire/Earth?

[Mobeius]

Just hit 10 on my Ninja/Assassin TR. First life I was very pleased with the build and have been grinding very hard to cap her again. Now... I think i'm going to focus on other toons. Adding in a fort save and nerfing the damage type means that against undead (where she needs the damage boost the most due to lost sneak attack) are now immune and that against virtually everything else she'll only ever get half damage. Once again, Turbine ****s builders for no good reason in favor of single-class WoW-style toons. It's complete and utter ****. at 12 enhancement points to get it it's by far the most expensive ability dark monks get. With these changes it's not worth even a fraction of that.

No DM would dare to change the rules on their players like this and if they did they'd be looking for another group very quickly.

It's not the first time the devs have changed the rules dramatically and broken one of my builds and I know it won't be the last. I suppose it's part of playing an MMO, but it sure as hell isn't a part I like. This change doesn't help the game and it doesn't help monks. In fact the only people who are going to come out ahead on this one are the bean counters at Turbine who are going to make a killing off all the people forced to buy Hearts of Wood to fix their now-broken builds.

and I suppose that's really what it's all about, isn't it?

Nah, its about balance, just like batman builds back in the day made Evasion MC toons that wore heavy plate. The did a balance pass on that and back then and they FIXED that mechanic and then people were screaming nerf, they were quitting, how unfair it was to take it away after letting them have it, etc.

Everytime there is something too powerful and take it away there is always the nerd rage/quit group that takes it personal.

FYI, any gaming group I was with if the DM thought something was too powerful or unbalanced they would correct it. Now depending on the nature of the change they would usually allow the player some allowance to make some changes. Minor or major depending on the rules change.

[SINIBYTE]

So, with the nerf, is it going to make more sense going Dex/Wis Wind/Earth instead of STR + Fire/Earth?

With the nerf it's going to make sense to roll another class...

The worst part is the investment you make in your characters only to have them beat down. This is really the reason I stopped playing almost every MMO in the past. And it will probably be the reason I stop playing this one. I don't enjoy investing my time and money only to have someone change the rule on me mid stream.

I can see a pattern though... FvS are better healers than Clerics, guess what? Go to the DDO store and buy FvS. Want a top STR toon? It's not WF anymore, now its half-orc, better go to the store and buy half-orc. Want a top DPS toon? It's not going to be monks anymore.

Not only that, we've all probably lost another potential tanking class in the game.

[Soleran]

I can understand min/max people really getting upset over the changes to dark but really why did they have to keep flaunting insane tod hits and super str builds? It's generally in the nature of the beast if it's to good to be true then it probably is, building a character though off of one ability of one class is the extreme.

Shintao will get some cool changes, I am glad about the fort saves for the ToD I do however wished it would have stayed untyped rather then negative.

[Resilian]

Thinking about this Post-U7.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Zaeken TR WF
Level 20 Lawful Neutral Warforged Male
(20 Monk)
Hit Points: 332
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 17
Reflex: 18
Will: 15

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
(34 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 14 14 14
Dexterity 16 22 22
Constitution 17 18 20
Intelligence 8 8 8
Wisdom 14 14 16
Charisma 6 6 6

Tomes Used
+1 Tome of Dexterity used at level 3
+1 Tome of Constitution used at level 3

Ending
Base Skills
Skills (Level 20)
Balance 28
Bluff -2
Concentration 28
Diplomacy -2
Disable Device n/a
Haggle -2
Heal 3
Hide 6
Intimidate -2
Jump 25
Listen 3
Move Silently 6
Open Lock n/a
Perform n/a
Repair -1
Search -1
Spot 3
Swim 2
Tumble 7
Use Magic Device n/a

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Past Life) Past Life: Monk
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Past Life: Disciple of the Fist
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Inevitable Dominion: Fists of Darkness


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 5 (Monk)


Level 6 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist
Feat: (Selected) Weapon Finesse


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 10 (Monk)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX


Level 17 (Monk)


Level 18 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 19 (Monk)


Level 20 (Monk)
Ability Raise: DEX
Enhancement: Monk Serenity
Enhancement: Static Charge
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane I
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane II
Enhancement: Way of the Elegant Crane III
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy I
Enhancement: Monk Ninja Spy II
Enhancement: Touch of Death
Enhancement: Fists of Iron
Enhancement: Porous Soul
Enhancement: All-Consuming Flame
Enhancement: Monk Improved Recovery I
Enhancement: Winter's Touch
Enhancement: Adept of Wind
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Storms
Enhancement: Master of Thunder
Enhancement: Adept of Rock
Enhancement: Grandmaster of Mountains
Enhancement: Master of Stone
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness III
Enhancement: Monk Jump I
Enhancement: Monk Jump II
Enhancement: Monk Tumble I
Enhancement: Monk Tumble II
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom I
Enhancement: Monk Wisdom II
Enhancement: Warforged Brute Fighting I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution I
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack II
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III




Someone C/D if this is good because I'm going to LR right now if it is. I had a halfling variant of this, but the stats/enhancements are gonna be different on a TR WF so I need to make sure I did them right.

Alt stats could be 17 dex 17 con 12 wis, but i figure the slight loss to attack is worth the increased wisdom dc for ToD..

[RavenVisigoth]

ok here is the problem I have. I get tired of games where the DMs add in something that is really really good and then decide to take it away or make it almost worthless. I'd rather have them add something that is nice and not overpowered to begin with and add to it rather than give us something that we make a character built around that fact then have the build be next to worthless when they take it away or make it a waste of time. An idea for the future, add something that is good and add to it to make it balanced. Don't give us something really special and good and then take it away when it is "overpowered"

[SINIBYTE]

ok here is the problem I have. I get tired of games where the DMs add in something that is really really good and then decide to take it away or make it almost worthless. I'd rather have them add something that is nice and not overpowered to begin with and add to it rather than give us something that we make a character built around that fact then have the build be next to worthless when they take it away or make it a waste of time. An idea for the future, add something that is good and add to it to make it balanced. Don't give us something really special and good and then take it away when it is "overpowered"

I've played with a sadistic DM before, we stopped playing with him. He didn't like our tactics so he continually changed things on us. We were smarter than he was (or maybe our dice were just good to us), either way, when he continually tried to destory our party, characters, and progression, we started playing with a new DM - who remembered it was about all of us having fun.

[gurgar78]

With the nerf it's going to make sense to roll another class...

The worst part is the investment you make in your characters only to have them beat down. This is really the reason I stopped playing almost every MMO in the past. And it will probably be the reason I stop playing this one. I don't enjoy investing my time and money only to have someone change the rule on me mid stream.

I can see a pattern though... FvS are better healers than Clerics, guess what? Go to the DDO store and buy FvS. Want a top STR toon? It's not WF anymore, now its half-orc, better go to the store and buy half-orc. Want a top DPS toon? It's not going to be monks anymore.

Not only that, we've all probably lost another potential tanking class in the game.

If you don't like games that change, then MMOs might not be for you.

[Jamma]

at 12 enhancement points to get it it's by far the most expensive ability dark monks get. With these changes it's not worth even a fraction of that.

Many halfling monks spend 20 ap's for 8 sneak attack damage, which doesn't work on undead either. Monks will gladly pay 12 AP for 250-1500 damage, its still the deal of the century for AP's spent vs. damage output gained.

No DM would dare to change the rules on their players like this and if they did they'd be looking for another group very quickly.


DM: your Touch of Death does 250 damage to the purple postulator.
You: Umm, last week I did 2500 damage to the exact same Purple Postulator.
DM: That was a different Postulator, you killed the other one.
You: That is so unfair!
DM: You notice your shadow disappear, as what appears to be a small cloud appears overhead.
You: I'm going to quit and go over to Marcie's group! She lets me do infinite damage as often as I want!
DM: You are about to be crushed by a 10,000 lb oversized anvil, accidently fallen off a Thunder Giant's sky vessel. Roll a Reflex DC check -10, as you're distracted running your mouth and whining to the gods.
<12 is rolled>
DM: You fail your reflex save. You are hit with 2500 damage. You die.
You: WHATTT!!! Are you insane?? How could anything do 2500 damage in a single hit???
DM: Oy Vey.



Nerfs suck. But I saw it coming as this board was constantly filled with braggadocio posts of absurd damage output ever since U5.

[Burtle]

Well I guess I'm glad I respecced my monk back to the "gimpy" Light Path :rolleyes:

[Maegin]

I hate to agree with a few of the Turbine Yes-man d-o-o-s-h-ers out there, but I did see this coming, and especially making it negative energy.

Its touch of "DEATH" and im just guessing theimatically death = negative energy. The whole save thing, eh not too stoked about it, since Rise of the phoenix doesn't have a save, but I can also understand a potential reasoning behinde it.

Turbine wants the monk class to excel at 'monk' powers to differinciate them from just regular dps classes. Well , it just so happens that the 'monk' powers all run off ki, and ki based attack usually have a save. Just fits the theme, plus the fact that they want monks to be a WIS class to follow tradition.

All in all I get it, and Im sure just like an other good player out there, we'll learn to adjust and move on if this goes live, till we find the next awesome thing (which enevitalbly will be nerfed, and the proccess repeats itself :p)

[Jay203]

for those of you that complains about the change
imagine this
all the casters can cast Distintegrate that doesn't require saving throw
like? sure as hell no right? and you guys would cry nerf immediately :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[AMDarkwolf]

I'm sorry to all the dark monks out there that built JUST for ToD.... but really all I can hear is "WAAHHHHH THEY TOOK AWAY MY 'I WIN' BUTTON"

Just learn to adapt. Its STILL a very nasty attack, which will STILL do plenty of damage against most mobs. So now u have to rely on some of your other abilities, really. Adapt.

[elraido]

Like I have mentioned before. Basically all they did was make it a smite evil for monks. For the exhaulted smite of a paladin, it only functions vs evil creatures, they need to hit their critical threat range, and have a limited number before a slow regen (1 every 90 secs). So I honestly don't see what the fuss is about.

[Mobeius]

Even with the new change TOD I am still considering rolling a dark monk.

[Halock]

If you did not see this coming you have on idea what the word balanced means. I'm only surprised that it took as long as it did.

[QuantumFX]

Just for giggles. Has anyone tried drinking a Nihil potion (or whatever the negative energy buff potion is) to see if it buffs the damage?

[SINIBYTE]

Well I guess I'm glad I respecced my monk back to the "gimpy" Light Path :rolleyes:

Exactly, if Dark Path was actually OP, there would be no light monks at all. Yet there are.

[Mobeius]

Exactly, if Dark Path was actually OP, there would be no light monks at all. Yet there are.

Oh there were PLENTY of light monk I knew that either LR'ed to dark monks or TR'ed to dark monks or new players rolling up monks and guess what they were, thats right dark monks.

Light side was definately an endangered species and I even considered LR'ing to a dark monk and the reason I didnt. I expected a change coming to ToD.

I am sure the dev logs were showing this. You dont think they have logs of who does LR, GR, or TR in to what and logs on who takes what path etc.?

[butlerfamilywa]

Touch Of Death Without Dark/Dark/Dark Finisher
250 On Save
500 Failed Save

Touch Of Death With Dark/Dark/Dark Finisher
312 On Save
625 Failed Save

Nihil I through Nihil V does not affect Touch of Death.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Dark path monks still are very good. Shadowfade is a huge ability, the 3d6 SA damage is nothing to sneeze at, and unless you totally dumped wisdom your DC on this should still be decent enough to put out some damage.

I'll admit that I am disappointed a 'little', but we knew this was coming. I do wish it was not negative damage type now, but at least the DB type ward that mobs have will not stop it, only the actual Death Ward spell.

That said... I wish they would have at least given us our 3rd PRE....

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Just for giggles. Has anyone tried drinking a Nihil potion (or whatever the negative energy buff potion is) to see if it buffs the damage?

Saw a post in the Lam forums that it did not work when somebody tried it.

[Odin's_Hugin]

Oh there were PLENTY of light monk I knew that either LR'ed to dark monks or TR'ed to dark monks or new players rolling up monks and guess what they were, thats right dark monks.

Light side was definately an endangered species and I even considered LR'ing to a dark monk and the reason I didnt. I expected a change coming to ToD.

I am sure the dev logs were showing this. You dont think they have logs of who does LR, GR, or TR in to what and logs on who takes what path etc.?


Quoted for truth. I logged another day and asked a party member who was a monk: "Are you light or dark".

The whole party answered - which monk isnt a Dark monkl?!


Soo.... yea. Good nerf.

[rimble]

Quoted for truth. I logged another day and asked a party member who was a monk: "Are you light or dark".

The whole party answered - which monk isnt a Dark monkl?!

Soo.... yea. Good nerf.

Yeah, it's weird. In that heated 'Light & Dark' thread some particularly vocal Monks were defending their awesome Light Monks, and are now piling on and enjoying the Dark nerfs as well deserved. It really makes me question where their head is at. Seems, I dunno, bi-polar or something.

"My Light Monk doesn't suck. Sure, he has a little less DPS than Dark, but he's awesome!"

"Yeah, suck it up Dark! You were totally overpowered and deserved it!"

Confusing.

I'd be happy with a single-hit non-typed 500 point punch. I really dislike the Negative Energy thing that much.

[Aussieee]

Though it no longer works on undead and constructs, the damage dealt by Touch of Death will be increased by an extra 25% (that's 125 extra damage per hit of Touch of Death) by your Dark/Dark/Dark finisher's 25% negative energy vulnerability debuff.
Since it is a negative energy does that mean items would make it more powerful like potency and void lore?

[Darkrok]

for those of you that complains about the change
imagine this
all the casters can cast Distintegrate that doesn't require saving throw
like? sure as hell no right? and you guys would cry nerf immediately :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :rolleyes:

This nerf though would be like taking a no-save/no-sr Disintegrate and instead of changing it to have a high DC fort save changing it to have a high DC fort save AND do negative energy damage. Can you imagine the cries of outrage from arcanes if their untyped damage spell suddenly didn't work on the mobs they need it most against (constructs)?

I'm not saying I like the change/don't like it/whatever. I'm just saying that you have a very good analogy there. Disintegrate is untyped damage. Imagine the reaction from arcanes if it were to suddenly be changed to negative energy damage.

[Jamma]

This nerf though would be like taking a no-save/no-sr Disintegrate and instead of changing it to have a high DC fort save changing it to have a high DC fort save AND do negative energy damage. Can you imagine the cries of outrage from arcanes if their untyped damage spell suddenly didn't work on the mobs they need it most against (constructs)?

I'm not saying I like the change/don't like it/whatever. I'm just saying that you have a very good analogy there. Disintegrate is untyped damage. Imagine the reaction from arcanes if it were to suddenly be changed to negative energy damage.

If disintigrate were typed, it would almost certainly be force. It is a transmutation spell and has the advantage of not having the word 'death' in its title. In this game, Light is synonymous with life and Dark is synonymous with Death. Hence light path monks' healing curse ki strike only does damage to undead.

Also, disintigrate does have a fortitude save, so the analogy actually had to make up a new spell which no one actually has for arcanes to scream about, after it was changed to, well, a different spell.

The analogy also missed a HUGE difference between monks and arcanes. If Disintigrate 2.0 WERE nerfed to Disintigrate 0.5, arcanes wouldn't scream that much because they still have a hefty arsenal of other killer damage spells. Dark monks have a rather pathetic arsenal of parlor tricks, save for the 20 lb sledge hammer that was ToD.

[Mobeius]

Yeah, it's weird. In that heated 'Light & Dark' thread some particularly vocal Monks were defending their awesome Light Monks, and are now piling on and enjoying the Dark nerfs as well deserved. It really makes me question where their head is at. Seems, I dunno, bi-polar or something.

"My Light Monk doesn't suck. Sure, he has a little less DPS than Dark, but he's awesome!"

"Yeah, suck it up Dark! You were totally overpowered and deserved it!"

Confusing.

I'd be happy with a single-hit non-typed 500 point punch. I really dislike the Negative Energy thing that much.

I was one of those proponents of the light monks dont suck... They dont.. they still dont... I said it there and I will say it again. Anyone who thinks light monks suck doesnt know how to play one right. I will say it for dark monks now for the U7 changes, they dont suck either and anyone says otherwise doesnt know how to play the game. Sure they dont kick as much bootie as they did but they dont suck now.

[Gumbolo]

I hate to agree with a few of the Turbine Yes-man d-o-o-s-h-ers out there, but I did see this coming, and especially making it negative energy.

Its touch of "DEATH" and im just guessing theimatically death = negative energy. The whole save thing, eh not too stoked about it, since Rise of the phoenix doesn't have a save, but I can also understand a potential reasoning behinde it.

Turbine wants the monk class to excel at 'monk' powers to differinciate them from just regular dps classes. Well , it just so happens that the 'monk' powers all run off ki, and ki based attack usually have a save. Just fits the theme, plus the fact that they want monks to be a WIS class to follow tradition.

All in all I get it, and Im sure just like an other good player out there, we'll learn to adjust and move on if this goes live, till we find the next awesome thing (which enevitalbly will be nerfed, and the proccess repeats itself :p)

Did you ever think that 'twisted ki' could also be ki, which breaks opponents ki/life force into nothing and causes em to take untyped dmg as your life forces torment ain't really negative energy?

[Mobeius]

Did you ever think that 'twisted ki' could also be ki, which breaks opponents ki/life force into nothing and causes em to take untyped dmg as your life forces torment ain't really negative energy?

And what of those mobs who dont have ki/life force like lets say Undead and Constructs?

[Wraith_Sarevok]

So will ToD still work on WF characters?

I ask that because they are technically "living" constructs and the definition on that is somewhat blurry. PvP wise, this would make Dark Monks incredibly powerful.

[Mobeius]

So will ToD still work on WF characters?

I ask that because they are technically "living" constructs and the definition on that is somewhat blurry. PvP wise, this would make Dark Monks incredibly powerful.

Yes it will because like you said they are "living" constructs with an actual life force hence why they can be raise dead, ressurected, and even healed by positive energy and not just repair spells.

[Doctahg]

Dark monks just will not be a viable end game option for the vast majority anymore..that's what is really sad.

[KiwiJoe]

I was one of those proponents of the light monks dont suck... They dont.. they still dont... I said it there and I will say it again. Anyone who thinks light monks suck doesnt know how to play one right. I will say it for dark monks now for the U7 changes, they dont suck either and anyone says otherwise doesnt know how to play the game. Sure they dont kick as much bootie as they did but they dont suck now.

Would that be the same light monk that got you kicked out of ~elite raiders~ because the only thing it was good for was the anti-stun in Tower part3?

Light monks are currently hideous end game, and are getting a good buff in U7 - which is great.

The only things overpowered about TOD is the level 9 requirement (which is too much for content around that lvl), and the occassional x3-4 hits (1500-2000) which should be removed. 500 point hits every 15 secs with the occassional 1000 pointer is about right on target for a DPS class; remember barbarians crit in that bracket more often; rogues sneak attack for 100+ every hit; and lighting strike weapons do 600+.

[AMDarkwolf]

I was one of those proponents of the light monks dont suck... They dont.. they still dont... I said it there and I will say it again. Anyone who thinks light monks suck doesnt know how to play one right. I will say it for dark monks now for the U7 changes, they dont suck either and anyone says otherwise doesnt know how to play the game. Sure they dont kick as much bootie as they did but they dont suck now.

Same here, the issue i had was that that 500 dmg hit(which was what it was before) is now 4-6 hits? And u don't see ANY problem with that?

If your sorc suddenly got no save, hits everything, 1sp cost, instant cast FoD spell, you wouldn't, even for a second, think 'hmmm this is a bit much'

And monk is monk, light or dark, its just sad that so many ppl are pulling the nerdrage "IMAFAWKINGQUITNAO!" cuz they are being SMART and taking away your little easymode-I win button.

Learn to play the class with some of its OTHER unique abilities. U do not need to match barbs to be a valid member of a party, ffs theres MUCH more than just 'DPS and nothing but' in ddo.

[Legohaiden]

Same here, the issue i had was that that 500 dmg hit(which was what it was before) is now 4-6 hits? And u don't see ANY problem with that?

If your sorc suddenly got no save, hits everything, 1sp cost, instant cast FoD spell, you wouldn't, even for a second, think 'hmmm this is a bit much'

And monk is monk, light or dark, its just sad that so many ppl are pulling the nerdrage "IMAFAWKINGQUITNAO!" cuz they are being SMART and taking away your little easymode-I win button.

Learn to play the class with some of its OTHER unique abilities. U do not need to match barbs to be a valid member of a party, ffs theres MUCH more than just 'DPS and nothing but' in ddo.



People tend to forget quite frequently that DDO is based on Dungeons and Dragons which is a GROUP BASED game... its not ment to be a solo experiance.

EVERY class should have something they are not good at... a Failing if you will... thats where your Teammates come in, and help you out... thus making a strong Unit.

Practically No one plays Support classes anymore.... and they are the most important parts of the group.

Whens the last time a group you where in used tactics, and Crowd Controll to win the day?

[Mobeius]

Would that be the same light monk that got you kicked out of ~elite raiders~ because the only thing it was good for was the anti-stun in Tower part3?

Light monks are currently hideous end game, and are getting a good buff in U7 - which is great.

The only things overpowered about TOD is the level 9 requirement (which is too much for content around that lvl), and the occassional x3-4 hits (1500-2000) which should be removed. 500 point hits every 15 secs with the occassional 1000 pointer is about right on target for a DPS class; remember barbarians crit in that bracket more often; rogues sneak attack for 100+ every hit; and lighting strike weapons do 600+.

Kicked out... Wow... I knew some ER guys were pathetic... How you forget it was Pyce that recruited me in to ER for that same light monk and how awesome he was... This was LONG before the anti-stun buff was routine in TOD. You know there are some really good HUMAN beings in ER and then there are some real jerks too. I GLADLY left ER. You notice I didnt put up a fight and ask why I was kicked and just left? GEE I wonder why? Because too many in that guild are losers with nothing better to do than rag on the other player base how awesome they are and anyone whos not ER sucks. Now there are some actual decent human beings in ER, but a most are selfish, arrogant, self righteous jerks. I will say ER are great players just lousy humans. BTW, how come when I was kicked it was while I took a break and got an email stating, any questions ask pyce. You didnt even have the courage to face me and man up to it. No, me leaving ER was a good thing as I have more respect for my fellow players than you and most of ER. Thats why Aussie squelched almost everyone in that guild save for one or two. I know the internet gives you autonmy and makes you feel powerful but get to real life and back to joining the human race.

BTW, if my light monk sucks SO bad how come I still get tells from ER members to join epic quests or raids still?

You like the name of the guild are an elitist and dont like it when a toy gets taken away. Yea I recall all of yall screaming over every nerf bad mouthing the devs calling them idiots and morons just like other player bases that are non-ER.

Wasnt it your Sorc in a TOD that died raid you lead recently the other night in the Judge/Jailor room Mr. Elite?

Now comparing monks to Barbs? First, Barbs dont get those massive crits on undead and constructs, secondly even on raid bosses the crits can be negated some, third you want a monk to be every bit as DPS as Barbarian? :rollseyes: Same goes for rogues and their SA attacks, Undead Immune, Constructs Immune, Raid bosses, 50% immune not to mention Rogues have a lower BAB. Anything else?


Same here, the issue i had was that that 500 dmg hit(which was what it was before) is now 4-6 hits? And u don't see ANY problem with that?

If your sorc suddenly got no save, hits everything, 1sp cost, instant cast FoD spell, you wouldn't, even for a second, think 'hmmm this is a bit much'

And monk is monk, light or dark, its just sad that so many ppl are pulling the nerdrage "IMAFAWKINGQUITNAO!" cuz they are being SMART and taking away your little easymode-I win button.

Learn to play the class with some of its OTHER unique abilities. U do not need to match barbs to be a valid member of a party, ffs theres MUCH more than just 'DPS and nothing but' in ddo.

Partially correct...

TOD was double proccing and no one had a problem, its when it started to triple, Quadruple, Quintriple Proc is when people took notice.

I also find it funny that there is a class divide in the own monk class Light VS Dark monk.

[Soleran]

Yes it will because like you said they are "living" constructs with an actual life force hence why they can be raise dead, ressurected, and even healed by positive energy and not just repair spells.


Really man KI is not just life force it's energy:)

Regardless

[Mobeius]

Really man KI is not just life force it's energy:)

Regardless

Chi - Ki - Qi - Universal Life Energy

.It's the basic circulating energy of life, no matter which Eastern culture it's from: Chi, Ki, or Qi.

[AaronB]

The lammania thread on this subject was 55 pages long last I checked. A few people kind of gloating and using flawed analogies supporting the nerf; most thinking some change was called for but not being happy about how it was done.

Anyone calling pre-nerf ToD an "easy" button or "I win" button ought to try high-level content sometime. You know, where a 1000-point ToD doesn't even kill a trash mob, and raid bosses have over 100k hp. As I and others have gone over extensively, ToD is overpowered at level 9 - but this nerf doesn't really fix that it only really hurts monks at endgame where it isn't overpowered anyway.

Comparing it to a spell is also not accurate. Most casters are built for DC's - a monk who tries to do that will be gimped for regular melee. Also, casters have a whole lot of spells to choose from; how many 12-AP-costing-centerpiece-of-the-class abilities do dark monks have? We're supposed to "just use our other abilities?" Ok, touch of death was nerfed to under 50% of it's previous power against most content and made completely useless against the rest, but instead of that we can make a mob take 10% more damage from an element! (If they fail a save, and then they get a re-save every 12 seconds).

The talk about "well, it has 'death' in the title so it should be negative energy" is subjective and not very meaningful. "You strike down your opponent with twisted ki" sounds a lot more like the monk is using his own ki: if he uses his own ki to deliver a super-powerful strike it should smash whatever he hits.

[Jamma]

The lammania thread on this subject was 55 pages long last I checked.

Wowo! 64 pages and they're still on topic. I would have expected "you're a nazi! no you're a nazi! and a commie!" long ago.

[AMDarkwolf]

The lammania thread on this subject was 55 pages long last I checked. A few people kind of gloating and using flawed analogies supporting the nerf; most thinking some change was called for but not being happy about how it was done.

Anyone calling pre-nerf ToD an "easy" button or "I win" button ought to try high-level content sometime. You know, where a 1000-point ToD doesn't even kill a trash mob, and raid bosses have over 100k hp. As I and others have gone over extensively, ToD is overpowered at level 9 - but this nerf doesn't really fix that it only really hurts monks at endgame where it isn't overpowered anyway.

Comparing it to a spell is also not accurate. Most casters are built for DC's - a monk who tries to do that will be gimped for regular melee. Also, casters have a whole lot of spells to choose from; how many 12-AP-costing-centerpiece-of-the-class abilities do dark monks have? We're supposed to "just use our other abilities?" Ok, touch of death was nerfed to under 50% of it's previous power against most content and made completely useless against the rest, but instead of that we can make a mob take 10% more damage from an element! (If they fail a save, and then they get a re-save every 12 seconds).

The talk about "well, it has 'death' in the title so it should be negative energy" is subjective and not very meaningful. "You strike down your opponent with twisted ki" sounds a lot more like the monk is using his own ki: if he uses his own ki to deliver a super-powerful strike it should smash whatever he hits.

Ya, your prob right, there's much 'higher' stuff than Elite ToD runs, epic DQ/sand runs, etc. Wanna show me these 'high level' area's i haven't seen?

Fail excuse really. 500 dmg 'per hit' down to 250, MAYBE 500 dmg, affects 'alive' targets FITS tod MUCH better. Wah somewhere else, the nerf is not a nerf, its a fraking FIX!

[Khurse]

Ya, your prob right, there's much 'higher' stuff than Elite ToD runs, epic DQ/sand runs, etc. Wanna show me these 'high level' area's i haven't seen?

Fail excuse really. 500 dmg 'per hit' down to 250, MAYBE 500 dmg, affects 'alive' targets FITS tod MUCH better. Wah somewhere else, the nerf is not a nerf, its a fraking FIX!

No, it's a nerf, and (in some cases) it's actually a damage improvement.

It's nice to see so many "experts" weigh in who have no idea how it was supposed to work.
TOD (with teh update 5 changes) was supposed to proc a maximum of two times in Fire/Earth/Water stance.
It was supposed to have a chance for a 3rd proc in Air Stance.
However they did the actual calculations, something was messed up and you could have up to 5 strikes in any stance.

The "fix" is supposed to be in to limit this to three strikes in Air Stance, And Two Strikes in any of the other stances.

However, with the ability to use touch of despair with Touch of Death on targets, you can now hit for 624/625 on a target that's been hit with despair, so the max has gone from 1000 -> 1248/50, or 1500 -> 1872 on any target that is able to be effected by negative energy.

Therefore, anyone supporting the change claiming it will drop Monk DPS is incorrect, against many targets it will increase it.

[AMDarkwolf]

No, it's a nerf, and (in some cases) it's actually a damage improvement.

It's nice to see so many "experts" weigh in who have no idea how it was supposed to work.
TOD (with teh update 5 changes) was supposed to proc a maximum of two times in Fire/Earth/Water stance.
It was supposed to have a chance for a 3rd proc in Air Stance.
However they did the actual calculations, something was messed up and you could have up to 5 strikes in any stance.

The "fix" is supposed to be in to limit this to three strikes in Air Stance, And Two Strikes in any of the other stances.

However, with the ability to use touch of despair with Touch of Death on targets, you can now hit for 624/625 on a target that's been hit with despair, so the max has gone from 1000 -> 1248/50, or 1500 -> 1872 on any target that is able to be effected by negative energy.

Therefore, anyone supporting the change claiming it will drop Monk DPS is incorrect, against many targets it will increase it.


Yes. This is true, and imo it fits. Problem is now ppl have to press this button, then that one.. OMG ITS TOO MUCH, I can't do it.. bleh blah.

See the issue is they had a single key, wait while auto attacking for 15 seconds, hit again. I WIN. No thought. No planning, don't even consider using any OTHER skills, cuz none of them even stack up to ToD.

3 hits.. i guess that's ok, if it was only 3.

Just for a second, ALL of you dark monks, before you start mashing that neg rep button again, consider this.

Imagine us light monks, got a 'light' (not holy, LIGHT) attack that did 500 dmg. NOTHING in the game has any resistance to light. Now imagine we do could 3-5 hits with this attack. Imagine it was as easy as your ToD. Imagine suddenly all light monks dropped all other skills, stopped using finishers, and just autoattacked for 15 seconds between cooldowns. Really.. STOP AND THINK about it. Ok. Got it? now imagine we had all this before ToD was EVER Added.

Can u now see?

Now ToD being negative damage, fits, just as it is explained. It has to do with twisted Ki. Ki is life energy. Constructs, and undead do NOT have ki. Please re-read that line again. And again. And again. Got it? Well.. at least SOME of you have. lets move on.

Now you can still hit stuff. Just not everything. Ok.. relax.. hold on.. don't freak.. settle down kid. Now you gotta bust out those undead banes. And those construct banes. Guess what, Monks have been doing that a while now. Its not so hard, see? U got it. GOOD BOY!

Really, its like talking to some very spoiled kids who REALLY are not that bad off. Just a little 'less' well off than they were. Live with it. Grow. Adapt.

[SINIBYTE]

Yes. This is true, and imo it fits. Problem is now ppl have to press this button, then that one.. OMG ITS TOO MUCH, I can't do it.. bleh blah.

See the issue is they had a single key, wait while auto attacking for 15 seconds, hit again. I WIN. No thought. No planning, don't even consider using any OTHER skills, cuz none of them even stack up to ToD.

3 hits.. i guess that's ok, if it was only 3.

Just for a second, ALL of you dark monks, before u slap that neg rep button again, consider this.

Imagine us light monks, got a 'light' (not holy, LIGHT) attack that did 500 dmg. NOTHING in the game has any resistance to light. Now imagine we do could 3-5 hits with this attack. Imagine it was as easy as your ToD. Imagine suddenly all light monks dropped all other skills, stopped using finishers, and just autoattacked for 15 seconds between cooldowns. Really.. STOP AND THINK about it. Ok. Got it? now imagine we had all this before ToD was EVER Added.

Can u now see?

Now ToD being negative damage, fits, just as it is explained. It has to do with twisted Ki. Ki is life energy. Constructs, and undead do NOT have ki. Please re-read that line again. And again. And again. Got it? Well.. at least SOME of you have. lets move on.

Now you can still hit stuff. Just not everything. Ok.. relax.. hold on.. don't freak.. settle down kid. Now you gotta bust out those undead banes. And those construct banes. Guess what, Monks have been doing that a while now. Its not so hard, see? U got it. GOOD BOY!

Really, its like talking to some very spoiled kids who REALLY are not that bad off. Just a little 'less' well off than they were. Live with it. Grow. Adapt.

1. Dark monks don't AFK tapping TOD every 15 seconds. (That's been posted dozens of times).
2. Earth strikes are part of a normal strike rotation for dark monks.
3. If light monks got a light attack, that would be freakin' awesome!
4. If dark monks utility matched light monks utility, you'd see dark monks using their ability.
5. If dark monks didn't have the most useless debuffs/buffs they'd use some of those other abilities, but as it is, they're all complete garbage, and not even worth a hotbar spot. We didn't use them before TOD, we don't use them now, and we still won't use them in the future.
6. The attack is the monks Twisted Ki, it has no bearing on the targets Ki (or lack of).

[rimble]

Yes. This is true, and imo it fits. Problem is now ppl have to press this button, then that one.. OMG ITS TOO MUCH, I can't do it.. bleh blah.

See the issue is they had a single key, wait while auto attacking for 15 seconds, hit again. I WIN. No thought. No planning, don't even consider using any OTHER skills, cuz none of them even stack up to ToD.

This is sarcasm, right? I'm serious. This is a serious question. Are you seriously posting this after the past several days of intense Monk discussion, or are you teasing?

[AMDarkwolf]

1. Dark monks don't AFK tapping TOD every 15 seconds. (That's been posted dozens of times).
2. Earth strikes are part of a normal strike rotation for dark monks.
3. If light monks got a light attack, that would be freakin' awesome!
4. If dark monks utility matched light monks utility, you'd see dark monks using their ability.
5. If dark monks didn't have the most useless debuffs/buffs they'd use some of those other abilities, but as it is, they're all complete garbage, and not even worth a hotbar spot. We didn't use them before TOD, we don't use them now, and we still won't use them in the future.
6. The attack is the monks Twisted Ki, it has no bearing on the targets Ki (or lack of).

In response to 4 and 5, you are right, and I have been one of the 'monks' of old who always thought the dark monk path should be a 'roughly' reverse of the light: IE where fire/light/fire gives a +2 to all buff, the dark side should be a debuff of -2(A small, but can turn the tide, debuff or curse to all mobs in the PbAOE around the Dark monk)

Allow also the other current effects(IE: more dmg from fire?) and I personally would have a great time playing a monk.


The touch of death thing, from the beginning was always a little 'off' It was fine in that dark monks should be dps orientated, but then the whole 'lets change how attackspeed works' bs came along.

No I am NOT happy with many things the devs did, and Im confused about much of the other stuff they do(Really, Shinto ToD ring set now 'bypasses good/evil - REALLY? like give us something we already have, thanks) but the fix to ToD just seems... Like they finally deciding to repair something they messed up on. Twice. Its not perfect, and prob never WILL be, but its a change that is needed.

[KoboldKiller]

Same here, the issue i had was that that 500 dmg hit(which was what it was before) is now 4-6 hits? And u don't see ANY problem with that?

If your sorc suddenly got no save, hits everything, 1sp cost, instant cast FoD spell, you wouldn't, even for a second, think 'hmmm this is a bit much'

And monk is monk, light or dark, its just sad that so many ppl are pulling the nerdrage "IMAFAWKINGQUITNAO!" cuz they are being SMART and taking away your little easymode-I win button.

Learn to play the class with some of its OTHER unique abilities. U do not need to match barbs to be a valid member of a party, ffs theres MUCH more than just 'DPS and nothing but' in ddo.


When they give Dark Monks USEFUL unique abilities come back with that argument.

End game tell me what there is BESIDES DPS given blanket immunities by many MoBs as well as inflated HP?

[AMDarkwolf]

When they give Dark Monks USEFUL unique abilities come back with that argument.

End game tell me what there is BESIDES DPS given blanket immunities by many MoBs as well as inflated HP?

I agree with you on this, don't get me wrong. But the ToD from the start was a bandaid for this problem, and it WAS a mistake to do this(IMO it was for them, just a 'easyfix' they did rather than give the Darkside more meat. Bring THAT side of the argument to them, not a 'don't take away my one only thing I can do' complaint.

Truth be told, the whole problem lies right there. The dev's did the easy thing, with no(or very, very little) thought into what they did. But for the last year, EVERYTHING they do seems to fall into that area. Toss out new stuff in the DDO store is about all they focused on.

Look at the ToD sets, as an example. See what sets 'every' melee is going for, then look at 'all' the melee based sets. Its an inbalance. A 'lets do something cool' moment then 'ah just toss x and y on those and wrap it up boys, lets go drinkin' on the rest.

[Silverr]

My main concern is whether or not I'll still be able to land it on elite bosses with insane health and saves. I mean, I'll land a triple ToD and the health bar will barely shift. If I have to pass a save as well that is gonna suck. I probably won't be able to knock its DC past mid-thirties. At the moment, the only instance where it is ever overpowered is when you first get it, at level nine. Maybe up it to level 15 or so, but that is honestly the only fix really needed. At level 15, everything has over 500 health. And on elite, sometimes a double or triple ToD won't even kill a trash mob.

[lobode]

The funny thing that everyone seems to be forgeting is that ToD would have been a non issue not needing any "fix" if turbine hadn't added the ******** double strike in the first place.

[SINIBYTE]

The funny thing that everyone seems to be forgeting is that ToD would have been a non issue not needing any "fix" if turbine hadn't added the ******** double strike in the first place.

Or that this update would be the most awesomesauce update they've come out with yet... if they just left the **** monks alone. But now - all their hard work is overshadowed by a single nerf.

[Hellsong]

Or that this update would be the most awesomesauce update they've come out with yet... if they just left the **** monks alone. But now - all their hard work is overshadowed by a single nerf.
That is why they are doing it now.

[Mobeius]

Or that this update would be the most awesomesauce update they've come out with yet... if they just left the **** monks alone. But now - all their hard work is overshadowed by a single nerf.

WOW talk about blowing out of proportion....

They are releasing more content, 2 new races, fixing some other bugs for a whole lot of people. However, the change to ToD over shadows all of that work.

That could be considered pretty arrogant to think all this work hinged on your disapproval of dark monks and the change to ToD.

[oweieie]

The funny thing that everyone seems to be forgeting is that ToD would have been a non issue not needing any "fix" if turbine hadn't added the ******** double strike in the first place.

Actually, it doesn't need a "fix" now as dark monks aren't beating out the other melee classes for DPS even after getting ninja spy sneak attack on top of ToD.