My Expectations of a New Player

[Aranticus]

the divide between the vet (i'm not referring to the pseudo vets who think their 2 shoud runs qualify them to be an authority) and the newbie is widening and its horrifying how big this divide is at present. a lot of the misunderstanding stems from both misconception and miscommunication. this thread maybe ugly, i may get neg repped but it has to be said. if you are a new player and at the end of this post you think "boy this aranticus <insert insult> is an elitist" then you are realising something and that is the truth. the truth is honest and brutal, i'm not going to pretend that i'm some politician and be PC about it here. as to the vets, chip in with your own perceptions as well so that the new players may know what its really like out there

1. perception
many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first. according to maslow theory of needs, each of us have a need. the need of a casual player is very different from a powergamer. the need of a new player is also different from a vet. a lot of new players thing number crunching powergamers are elitists that do not have fun.

this is a wrong perception. they are having fun, in their own way. their fun isnt about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. a powergamer's interest is in acquiring the best gear possible and gunning for seemingly impossible feats of soloing, speed, etc. a newbie may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counterspell, etc fun. that has long since been removed from the minds of many experienced players. and the reason is they do not need to smell the flowers along the path for the 2486274th time

2. build
balance and min-maxing is an often misunderstood concept. new players generally thing of balance as something which allows them to meet new things head on and be prepared by means of spreading out the abilities and that min-maxing is something that implies the maxing of certain abilities at the expense of others

balance works real well at the lower levels as the encounters are less deadly and the ddo numbers ie to hit, damage, AC, are low enough not to be of concern. this gives new players the perception that what works at L4 must work at L10 and at L20. in reality, ddo is not a proportional game. a boss at L4 may have 500 hp, at L10 it may have 2000 hp and probably 500000 at L20. balance begins to lose focus and you will find that being specialised will actually make you perform better. this is where min-maxing comes about

min-maxing is not maxing an ability at the expense of others. min-maxing is about the maxing of an important attribute while suppressing those that are not utilised. a balanced fighter in they eyes of a new player could be one with a decent dps, nice ac, good saves all combined together. for a min-maxer, its totally different. they will take the environment into consideration and plan accordingly

consider a boss fight where the boss has a to hit of 70. a new player will load up on a shield, protection item, barkskin and think his AC of 60 rocks. unfortunately in this case, it doesnt. the boss will still only need a roll of 2 to hit. this means all that load doesnt serve a purpose! the min-maxer will use thf/twf (no shield), lose all that AC gear and load up with guard items which inflicts damage back. you are still getting hit the same amount of times but is dealing an exponetially greater amount of damage

the same can be applied to other aspects such as stat (cha and int is not really important to a barb, higher str and con is better). note that min-maxing is really to max out your best attribute by not heeding the other aspects which are not going to factor much in performance

3. attitude
learn! this is the best advice i can give any new player. there are a lot of resources out here which i didnt have when i was starting out. if you are already here, read them. if you see people asking, refer them. in quest do not be afraid to ask questions (of course please limit it to the intelligent ones ie why is a scimitar a better weapon for an elf than a longsword?" not "can i haz ya lutz?")

be unafraid to admit you are new. raid leaders want 100% success as much as possible and if you are new, they wont skip some important instructions. however, you must also know where you stand. if you are new, joining a quest/raid you have not done before on hard or elite is just asking for it. joining a lfm with "in progress", "byoh" (just in case you do not know, it means bring your own heals), "be sufficient", "zerg run", "speed" are also asking for it. in all these runs, the leader is expecting you to be knowledgable about the quest/raid and will not bother with helping you learn it

be humble. when the group leader tells you that a certain thing needs to be done, sure you can ask why but follow. many quests/raid completion runs are quite established and usually the best tried and tested method, more importantly, its about communication. if you do something differently, it may have a negative impact. if someone tells you that you need more hp, give us a break, dun tell us your 150 hp at L20 is enough. we know what is enough and 150 hp is not enough unless you are one of the top 5 players with enough skills to pull it off

4. equipment
some playes are scrooges and will save a ton of plat up and not spend a single dime. this is just asking for trouble. status removal and healing pots are typically the least anyone should have. its is your own character, to expect others to keep you on your feet just shows how irresponsible you are. you may say "but that is what the cleric is for!" so what happens if the clr happens to be healing another party member and may not attend to you immediately? what happens if you need the clr to keep removing your disease that no sp is left for heals?

gear wise, find out what is needed. in general, a vorpal, smiter, disrupter, paralyser and a metalline of pure good/holy silver/metalline flametouched iron/etc will serve you well for most quests/raids. heavy fortification and hp items are important as well. read the trade channel or server marketplace threads to see what people are WTB. this generally give you an indication that an item may be important

5. PnP
ditch whatever you learn in PnP. DDO is a whole new world. my DDO fighter has 700 buff hp, 70 str, 70 AC. i'm an equivalent of a PnP god. lots of things in PnP doesnt work the same way in DDO. lots of things are specific to DDO and not found in PnP. most vets do not really care if you have 20 yrs of PnP experience. take michael jordan for example. he plays basketball well and have 6 championship rings. he takes on baseball and golf and we all know how well those went

6. MMO
yes DDO is another MMO but there is a lot of difference from many other games out there. one of the biggest difference is the community. not many MMOs are able to survive a lean period of almost 2 years of negligible content updates, absence of communication, closure of cousin servers by respectives game providers (just in case you may not know, its shanda and codemasters) in china and europe. the level of customisation in the game in terms of character development is also seldom seen in other MMOs. like other games, the holy trinity of tank, healer, caster roles is also present in DDO. however, the roles are not limited to a few classes but rather by how the player plans and build a character, ie in DDO, its possible to have a tanking wizard. so what does all these boil down to? you could be a MMO vet with 10 years, played a dozen games but what you have learnt in the other games doesnt necessarily mean you are the authority on DDO.

7. experience
i've seen a lot of players in general chat giving advice or bragging to people. if you have gotten to L20 on 1 toon, it doesnt mean you are automatically a "vet". having played many other games, it is almost impossible to reach the highest levels without a good understanding of the games. in DDO, all this break down. the level of difficulty these days have been dumbed down by a huge margin. it is very possible for someone to join a group and get a completion without the person actually contributing anything. do not be fooled into thinking that 10 completions you have must make you an authority on shroud. i have ran with paladins who insist that their +3 holy bastard sword of maiming is better than the holy sword. there are players who swear that only mass heal should be the only acceptable healing spell, gawd, how did we managed to complete elite shroud when the cap was 16? there are casters that think that web is useless in vision of destruction. some are still in denial that the only acceptable healer in raids are clerics and favored souls

i reiterate again, having X raid completions or Y toons with Z true reincarnations doesnt mean you are an experienced player. i'm on khyber server, there are a few players who have TRed multiple times and are still avoided by the majority of the veteran players. in fact they are sometimes mocked at with multiple players lfm on the same raid. so when will you join the ranks of the vets? its really simple, when the better guilds acknowledge that you are one, you made it. how so? usually, the key indicators are how fast your raids fill, how quickly you get accepted into a raid, or if they send you a guild invite

in summary, i'm not saying you cant enjoy the game. you sure can but do it with like minded players. if you are going to run the endgame stuff with the vets/powergamers, be prepared to raise your game to a whole new level. an old saying goes, shape up or ship out. if you are not willing to do that, very soon you will find that none of them will admit you into their runs. this is a fact. this isnt a threat. people are not being elitist, people do not want their time wasted. each of us have different definitions of fun. people with different definitions of fun coming together is going to have moments of fiction. this is the truth

[Srozbun]

+1 if I could.

I've met a lot of vets with this attitude and they've really helped me enjoy the game more and develop my own characters/skills. However, some vets nowadays also have an additional skill requirement of any player who they group with it seems.

[FlyingTurtle]

Not criticising, and I usually ignore grammar/punctuation stuff, but I think you put a lot of effort into writing this thing and even took the effort to lay it out, so... I'd love to be able to read it, but I just can't. Just saying that you'll probably get more readers if you punctuate it.

[vVAnjilaVv]

Can't read it?!?! Pfft...whatever...this should not only be sticked but a mandatory must read for just about everyone who plays this game.

+1 btw.

I'll go back to my suggestion of making a questionnaire before new players can get off of Korthos....part of it should be linked to this thread.

[AyumiAmakusa]

I'd say number 5 was the mot important.

[Morningfrost]

As a new player that has experienced all of this, I wish to thank you. I think point #5 should be the first, however. And welcome back, for what it's worth.

[Irinis]

As a new player, I came in with the attitude of asking questions, telling people I was new, and listening and following advice to the best I could.

Unfortunately, it is true that different people have fun in this game in different ways.

Some people have fun by messing up other people as much as possible. If you meet obviously new players who refuse to admit they're new, that might be why. All you really can do if you come across someone who doesn't trust you enough to admit they're new, is to prove you actually ARE worthy of trust. Or, give clear directions in pugs on principle that there is probably someone new, and risk annoying all the experienced people who will then start griefing your pugs because you were too bossy for them even though you're new yourself and who do you think you are to lecture VETS. *Sigh*

[Postumus]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

[Bart_D]

I really do not hope Aranticus and other vets stop playing with us newer people. Running quests with and getting advice from such people makes learning the game so much easier. Of course, people prefer to do quests at different speeds and should post/join LFMs accordingly - comments like 'BYOH' and especially 'zerg' still keeps me from joining some when i dont know the quest well and feel confident i can handle it.

[Postumus]

I really do not hope Aranticus and other vets stop playing with us newer people. Running quests with and getting advice from such people makes learning the game so much easier. Of course, people prefer to do quests at different speeds and should post/join LFMs accordingly - comments like 'BYOH' and especially 'zerg' still keeps me from joining some when i dont know the quest well and feel confident i can handle it.


I think there are plenty of people out there patient enough to deal with new players (like myself).


I haven't encountered any mentors per se, but every time I PUG I pick up a few things from the other players just from watching them.

[Ashurr]

I think there are plenty of people out there patient enough to deal with new players (like myself).


I haven't encountered any mentors per se, but every time I PUG I pick up a few things from the other players just from watching them.


Seeing as Aranticus is responsible for, basically, any decent advice you'll hear from anyone in game, I believe a "Thank you" is in order. ( take a stroll thru the Guides, New player advice forums and pretty much every build board and you'll see what I mean)

[JDCrowell]

I could not agree with you more, Aranticus!
I am defiantly a new player as my character in my sig line is my first one and obviously not even capped yet. But I will say this to all you new players: It's not other bad newbies giving us a bad rap....although it doesn't help, it's mostly yourself. Just be honest when joining an LFM. Most Vets will give you a chance to prove yourself, just make the most of it. And if you mess up just learn from it.
Listen, Learn and for crying out loud the forums are your best friend. (that or ddowiki)
Promote the forums to as many people as you can. There is a wealth of information in here. The only reason I know what I do about anything in this game, I gained from the forums
Oh ....and "Powergamers" are not evil, they are the one's that have me hooked on this game lol

[NeutronStar]

Not criticising, and I usually ignore grammar/punctuation stuff, but I think you put a lot of effort into writing this thing and even took the effort to lay it out, so... I'd love to be able to read it, but I just can't. Just saying that you'll probably get more readers if you punctuate it.

Aranticus is from Singapore and his native tongue is Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese I don't remember which) so you'll have to forgive him for not using punctuation exactly right. I think he does a pretty good job with English myself.

[Aranticus]

Aranticus is from Singapore and his native tongue is Chinese (Mandarin or Cantonese I don't remember which) so you'll have to forgive him for not using punctuation exactly right. I think he does a pretty good job with English myself.

actually i can punctuate well, but


1. While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to:

Name-calling or other insults
Posting or commenting with the intent of provoking ("trolling") another user or users
Flaming another user for their spelling or grammar
Bringing disagreements with someone into unrelated threads or blog posts/comments
Creating a thread, post, or comment on any of the Community Sites that calls out another player(s) for their actions in the game

i'm just to lazy to do it right and its not an infractable offense to post something without proper spelling, grammer or punctuation (note punctuation falls under the grammer category as it is part of sentence structure). however, its is an offense under the turbine offense to call me out on it. should i hit the report button? :rolleyes:

[BattleCircle]

actually i can punctuate well, but



i'm just to lazy to do it right and its not an infractable offense to post something without proper spelling, grammer or punctuation (note punctuation falls under the grammer category as it is part of sentence structure). however, its is an offense under the turbine offense to call me out on it. should i hit the report button? :rolleyes:

/golfclap

[Dendrix]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.

Basically you are saying "I'm right and you are wrong". And quite frankly you are wrong.

Some things experience in the game helps on immensly. People expect you to be able to perform your "job" in the group.

Why aren't you carrying Curse Removal potions as recommended?
Why aren't you carrying Lesser Restore potions as recommended?

The healers have better things to do with their time and SP that remove these effects on you.

Why don't you have 100% Fortification at level 11+ as recommended?
in fact, it's not recommended, it's pretty much required. If you don't have 100% fortification, you will die ten times as much as other people. And dead characters are useless.

[JDCrowell]

Why don't you have 100% Fortification at level 11+ as recommended?
in fact, it's not recommended, it's pretty much required. If you don't have 100% fortification, you will die ten times as much as other people. And dead characters are useless.

I learned that the hard way and didn't get mine till level 13 :/

[Aranticus]

I really do not hope Aranticus and other vets stop playing with us newer people. Running quests with and getting advice from such people makes learning the game so much easier. Of course, people prefer to do quests at different speeds and should post/join LFMs accordingly - comments like 'BYOH' and especially 'zerg' still keeps me from joining some when i dont know the quest well and feel confident i can handle it.

i have never stopped running with new players, teaching them the ins and outs of this game. in fact i often put up byoh runs to acclimatise players to be able to stand on their own feet and pulling their own weight. your attitude is commendable, you should have more faith in yourself and explore more of your capabilities


We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.

I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"

there are times when experience counts for something and there are times one need to risk to get rewards. if i've fallen victim to the mindset of the "older" generation, then you too would have fallen victim to the mindset of the generation after that goes: ""what the heck do these old blocks know, its now the new age! to hell with history". guess what? history repeats itself as people fail to learn from the mistakes the previous generations make. there is a difference being wise and being a smart alec


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.

do i have to run with them? no. but when you are going to join my raid, its my group, my run. you respect me, you listen to me, you follow instruction, simple as that. if you want to run it your way, feel free to start your own runs but point is, my runs are good, they complete with minimum fuss. that is the respect you are talking about. you want your respect? earn it


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

unfortunately, there are a lot of such players that i have described that read the forums and they come with the same attitude like yours. in as much a way that "i'm wallowing in 2008" the same thing can be said of your "chest puffing"


I think there are plenty of people out there patient enough to deal with new players (like myself).

I haven't encountered any mentors per se, but every time I PUG I pick up a few things from the other players just from watching them.

ask around, i helped A LOT of players. you have no idea what i do, whom i helped, what i said. the OP is a reflection of what i did when i first played this game. it is also a reflection of what is happening now. the world while always moving forward, has it cycles

Cleverness is not wisdom. - Euripides

[sephiroth1084]

Another well-written post from the mind of Aranticus. +1.


Not criticising, and I usually ignore grammar/punctuation stuff, but I think you put a lot of effort into writing this thing and even took the effort to lay it out, so... I'd love to be able to read it, but I just can't. Just saying that you'll probably get more readers if you punctuate it.
He broke up the lines and paragraphs well enough to be readable (this coming from someone who tends to bristle at poor punctuation and grammar usually).

Oh, and -1 to Postumus for bringing basically the exact attitude to this helpful thread as the thread is designed to overcome. The point is that vets don't necessarily want to run with the same people they've been running with for a year, or two, or four all the time just because new players are making absolutely zero effort to learn to play the game as anything more than casual bystanders with events flowing around them.

Many of us enjoy meeting new people, or helping others, but it's hard to justify when so many players who refuse to take even the simplest advise, follow directions and ask questions are flooding the game and ruining the experience for other players. And I say this as someone who does occasionally still like "smell the roses runs" such as getting Conquest in Stormcleave, despite the fact that running it twice or thrice in the same amount of time is better XP than once with Conquest.

If all of the people with your apparent attitude steered clear of LFMs for Hard and Elite quests, speed runs, BYOH runs, "be self-sufficient" runs, epic runs, under-level runs, short-man runs, "know the way" runs and the "be competent" or "be knowledgeable/know the quest" runs, then it might be less of an issue, but the fact is, many don't. I don't know if it's because they think too highly of themselves, don't realize that they aren't very good yet, can't read, won't read, or intend to pike, but these people ruin the experience of others more assuredly than vets posting on the forums lamenting these folks. And most of them could avoid this simply by asking questions, reading and listening a little bit.

[NaturalHazard]

why do you think you would get neg repped for this?

[Kriogen]

...
What has this to do with new players? Have seen as many old vets fail on all your points as newbies.

[PopeJual]

I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"

Many of the new players who are coming into the game show a lot of promise. Some will be truly outstanding players someday. I will never be an outstanding player, but I am already "decent" and I strive for "pretty good". There are a lot of different ways to play this game. Unfortunately, there are also some ways to screw up a quest for the rest of your party and a percentage of the new player base doesn't seem to understand those things.

Since the new player base is so large, that percentage ends up being a lot of new players.

I don't really hear much wailing and gnashing of teeth in this thread. What I hear is a hope for the future that the percentage of new players who show promise will increase while the percentage of new players who give new players a bad name decreases.


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.

Unfortunately, there are two problems with that paragraph: one is that you can't tell who is a new player by their name, class or level. "Old skool" players create new characters all the time and there are a decent number of new players who don't understand the game at all have run a character up to 20 and immediately True Reincarnated, so even having a TR character isn't a guarantee of play skill.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any.

This is exactly correct. What will change your game experience is giving thoughtful, useful advice to players who are interested in improving their DDO game skills. There are a decent number of players here who have a bucketload of common sense and who attempt to apply that common sense to DDO. In some cases, common sense works just fine. In other cases, it runs into the brick wall of DDO's sometimes bizarre rule set.

Knowing some of the quirks of the DDO rule set and knowing some of the more useful tricks in DDO can really help a new player succeed in quests that

That's why I can solo pretty much everything up to level 10 with no problems now, even though I used to need a party to get through the Waterworks in the Harbor. I still like to group with other players and I like to group with new players. I also like being able to pull a party's bacon out of the fire when the time comes. I'm a decent player now. I want to continue to improve. If you don't want to hear good advice, then feel free to squeeze your eyes shut, drum your heals on the floor and shout, "LalalalalaI'mNotListening!" when you come across good advice that isn't full of insults.

Unfortunately, the /advice channel in DDO is filled with nonsense. The DDO forums are a much better (although not perfect) place to come for advice since bad and misleading advice gets shouted down pretty quickly.

The second issue is that DDO used to be a lot harder in the lower levels than it is now. Players had to develop their DDO game skills right from the beginning and a lot of early adopters quit the game because those early quests were too hard. That doesn't mean that the older players are the best of the best. It does mean that the worst of the worst got filtered out by the difficulty, though. The really awful players are no longer filtered out in the early levels and those awful players can infect better players with their bad attitudes and bad advice.

The good news is that they don't have to stay awful. An attitude of entitlement is the biggest problem for most of those players and a change in attitude will fix most of their problems. "I'm cursed, you fix me!" "I'm poisoned, cure me!" "I'm poor, gimme your loot!" "Shr plz!" I'm happy to cure poison when I'm on my ranger. I'm happy to remove curse for other people in quests where being cursed is significant. I'm not happy to have people demand that I do it because they can't be bothered to do it themselves.

I'm happy to chug healing potions in a quest in order to make sure that the main healer still has some blue bar left for emergencies even if we're getting close to a shrine. I am not happy when a healing capable character shrines with 50% of their blue bar remaining without bothering to pass out healing or buffs before they shrine.

I'm happy to heal people when I'm on my Ranger, Paladin or Favored Soul. I'm not happy to heal people who don't have any fortification at level 14.

Note: Fortification negates critical hits and sneak attack damage against you. That's a good thing(tm). You can get it at 9th level in the quest A Relic of Sovereign Past. If you can't handle that quest on your own, put up an LFM for the quest and say in the LFM description that you need to run the quest to get heavy fort so that you will be less of a burden on the healers. Someone will take pity on you and run you through the quest.



I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.

I don't think anyone is going to change their play because Aranticus disapproves of their game play. I do think that there are people who enjoy seeing good advice and who want to improve their play and posts like Aranticus's are a good source of game tips for the people who already want to better themselves.

[MalakRevan]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

You've been here a month, play with some more of the vets and actually learn things that will help you instead of taking offense when someone tries to offer you advice and making you have diarrhea of the mouth.

I see your problem already you are on Argo and probably a member of Korthos Army. Move to a real server like Khyber and come play with the big boys. Otherwise, Hi Welcome and enjoy the game.

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

You completely missed the point. He said nothing about "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game". What he said is, you can play the game how you want, but if you don't pick up on the things he listed, you will soon find that you are only accepted into groups with newer players, and that a good number of "vets" will actively avoid you. If that's how you want to play, and that's how you prefer to learn, then so be it...just don't be surprised if you get the cold shoulder from time to time.

In the end, though, even if you play your way for months, if you stick with the game for long enough, you will find that your playstyle will probably conform to what Aranticus has pointed out...it is simply an easier, more efficient method. Problem is, if you insist on not showing group leaders some simple respect, and try to play your own way, by the time you DO see the light, you will be on quite a few "lists", and that is unfortunate.

BUT, the one thing you should take from this, if not the basic idea of "listen and learn", is that the game is meant to be fun. Just like Aranticus said, powergamers have a different idea of fun, and you need to understand that...well, that works for you to. If your idea of fun is stumbling around, learning without listening, and finding things out for yourself, then go for it, but please let other people know that is the case...some people do not like that way of playing. Just like some people put "BYOH" or "in progress", or "know your way" in their LFMs, you might want to put something like "learning", or "taking it slow" in yours...give them the opportunity to chose, rather than be subjected to a game they do not enjoy.

...listen and learn...

[FlyingTurtle]

i'm just to lazy to do it right and its not an infractable offense to post something without proper spelling, grammer or punctuation (note punctuation falls under the grammer category as it is part of sentence structure). however, its is an offense under the turbine offense to call me out on it. should i hit the report button? :rolleyes:

I intended no offense, I was just offering a suggestion for reaching a wider audience.

[Aranticus]

I intended no offense, I was just offering a suggestion for reaching a wider audience.

no prob, but take it as a reminder. turbine got a new rule these days

[Aranticus]

What has this to do with new players? Have seen as many old vets fail on all your points as newbies.

your definition of a vet is not the same that i have. to me, a vet is someone with some social standing on the server and is recognised as a good player who is quite knowledgeable. length of time playing or the number of raid completions has nothing to do with vet status. a lot of TRs has no idea what they are doing, do you consider them vets? i know i do not. i call these noobs

[Angel_Barchild]

There seems to be a lack of understanding on both sides of the argument. The game is not divided into noobs and vets. In fact the majority of the players in this game are somewhere in the middle. As humans we tend to remember the bad more than the good or neutral. To the noob this is going to be the "elites vet" and to the vet this is going to be the "stupid noob". Most of the players you run with are just going to be that middle ground person that you don't think too much of.

So what should we do, as the majority of player, that are stuck between the vets vs. noob war? Well here is one from the faceless masses.

Noob: Your ignorance is going to grate on the vets. They played in a small community for four years and got very good at the game because of it. Now have to deal with thousands of new players, who do not know the ins and outs of the game, and question their hard won knowledge. As your skill improves they will like you better.

Vet: You sucked when you started. Your characters were gimp and you screwed up peoples quest. Then you got better. Unfortunately as a pay to play only game the community remained small. The majority of players were at a similar level of skill. That is no longer the case. With time new players will get better or quit playing.

One more thing, play with people who enjoy the game the same way you do, and have fun, whatever that is.

[Spoprockel]

Good OP!

I enjoyed reading it and hope it helps other people in need.


I find it sad some people can't comprehend what it states though.


The worst players are those who won't accept help or advice even with sugar on top.

[Mangloid]

Very nice post +1 rep.

[NeutronStar]

6. time limit

respect the time limit. that is the most important thing.

[Seikojin]

Good OP!

I enjoyed reading it and hope it helps other people in need.


I find it sad some people can't comprehend what it states though.


The worst players are those who won't accept help or advice even with sugar on top.

When I started reading, I was a little put off by the tone of the OP. But by the end I got the point and I agree that true, there are definitely different ways to enjoy the game. That people need to be open to talking to the people they group with so there is a clear idea on what is going on with the group.

I bolded Spoprockels line here because I run into that alot more than I used to. Sometimes I run groups where I ask if people want help knowing where stuff is, what is coming up, etc. Other times I just want to blindly do, so I follow around and do my jeorb.

I will admit, my characters for the most part aren't minmaxed. I didn't plan on them being min maxed and know that when the time comes, I will min max them.

As far as PnP comparisons, I would say one thing that this particular subject has in common with PnP is grouping. Not in the formation of a group, but communicating to help get the group to work together. In PnP you don't play with strangers very well. Only after social conversation and playing a few times together do you start to work together as a team. The same is true in DDO. You can find people any time of the day. But only after playing with them for a while do you start working efficiently as a team together.

[donnala]

All this talk makes me, a brand new player, shy away from doing quests with anyone. I am sure I could not keep up with the experienced players.

[diamabel]

...

1. perception
many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first. according to maslow theory of needs, each of us have a need. the need of a casual player is very different from a powergamer. the need of a new player is also different from a vet. a lot of new players thing number crunching powergamers are elitists that do not have fun.

this is a wrong perception. they are having fun, in their own way. their fun isnt about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. a powergamer's interest is in acquiring the best gear possible and gunning for seemingly impossible feats of soloing, speed, etc. a newbie may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counterspell, etc fun. that has long since been removed from the minds of many experienced players. and the reason is they do not need to smell the flowers along the path for the 2486274th time

...

Isn't DDO a game? Shouldn't games be fun to play?

If for a player DDO turned into something else than a game (e.g. a habit, a "drug", center of social activites, etc.) you could still have fun doing certain activities.
What are you gaining for beeing a powergamer who's running after certain in-game goals? DDO is not a big game as some others. eSports and DDO are two opposing things. While participating successfully in eSports will allow you to earn some "real money", aquiring something like the completionist feat in DDO nets you nothing but time spent doing a repetitive task. Other activities (sports for physical fitness, learning languages, "crafting", etc.) will give you some more usefull benefits.

Sometimes it feels like a paradox. Powergamers try to optimize their in-game characters. Try to improve their playing skill. Try to improve the equipment of their in-game characters. If you'd be honest about efficency you'd replace some activities by only using a character generator and skip the leveling and equipping process. To improve your playing skill you simply need to play the game and experiment with different tactics. The whole item hunting is just an artificial bait to keep some player types interested.

[zed1]

6. time limit

respect the time limit. that is the most important thing.

Run my allies!

[TiberiusofTyr]

5. PnP
ditch whatever you learn in PnP. DDO is a whole new world.

^This^

DDO is less similar to 3.5 than 3.5 is to 3.0, but still similar enough to confuse.

[Ainimache]

1. perception
many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first.


in summary, i'm not saying you cant enjoy the game. you sure can but do it with like minded players. if you are going to run the endgame stuff with the vets/powergamers, be prepared to raise your game to a whole new level. an old saying goes, shape up or ship out. if you are not willing to do that, very soon you will find that none of them will admit you into their runs. this is a fact. this isnt a threat. people are not being elitist, people do not want their time wasted. each of us have different definitions of fun. people with different definitions of fun coming together is going to have moments of fiction. this is the truth

The OP pretty much start by saying one thing, then later says another.

It's a game. It needs to be fun. If it's not fun then at best it's boring and at worst it's work. I'd say the majority of players play to have fun.

Different players have fun in different ways. I fully agree that people need to understand that, and try to find like-minded individuals to group with. Communication plays a huge role here. But it's communication from both ways. If I join a group that does NOT say zerg/rush/maxXP/BOYH/Know it, or some other clue, I'm going to assume we're running at a medium speed and that optionals may be completed. I don't assume it will be zerg simply because it doesn't say "flower sniffers" or that it's a new person to the quest who wants to look around simply because it doesn't say "zerg only".

You denied, in an earlier post, saying that everyone must play your way, but in the quote above you say if you want to run with the vets we have to shape up or ship out. You may not have meant it, but you imply that the ONLY way is the powergamer way.

There ARE vets out there that don't play just to maximize xp over time, or need to beat that time on such-and-such quest. Or at least not all the time. I understand from some of your later posts that you don't either; sometimes you help "train" us newbies. After 1 year playing, I'm still a newbie. This is because I play slowly. I have played a heck of a lot, but I'm not rushing toward end-game.

I, for one, have appreciated all the advice and information passed along by the vets. I spend a lot of time reading the forums. But the feeling I got from you post was: "Don't waste my time, if you're not a powergamer you aren't playing right." You didn't mean it that way, but that sure was how it came across. I know others have said it didn't, but most of them know you and therefore their perceptions of what you said were affected by their knowledge of your personality. For those of us who don't know you, it came across harsh.

In no way worth neg repping, by anyone. I'm not offended. Put off a bit, but not offended.

I feel for the person who said they were afraid to group now that they read your post. I was like that for a while too, after reading about all the "noobs." I didn't want to be a noob, so I avoided people for a long while when I started. Most people who play don't come to the forums. Most people in the game who want people to join their quests are willing to help new players learn. The OP is too.

There aren't many posts about the great newbies out there, or the middles either (the ones between vets and newbs), because they aren't as much "fun" to read. And anger/frustration is much more energizing than contentment. Quest went well, everybody did good, no reason to post. Stuff hit the fan, quest failed absymally, I'm all worked up, must go post!

Well, this went on for a heck of a lot longer than I expected it to, sorry!

[Yazston_the_Invoker]

The OP pretty much start by saying one thing, then later says another.

It's a game. It needs to be fun. If it's not fun then at best it's boring and at worst it's work. I'd say the majority of players play to have fun.

But see, that's what he's trying to get across...not that DDO is not a game, but that you have to strip yourself of the perception that "It's a game and should be fun". See, the inherent problem with that statement, is that it makes each person assume that DDO should be what THEY consider to be fun...that statement focuses your mind on what YOU want to do, and what YOU enjoy. The problem is, some people enjoy making the game more than just a game. Some people actually look at this game as a hobby, or even a challenge, and what they consider to be fun is not the same as what you or I consider to be fun. Basically what it boils down to is that the statement "it's a game and it should be fun" naturally engenders a somewhat selfish ideal, whereas, the OP wants to make you step back and realize that this is not just a game to everyone, and what is fun to one person is not fun to others.

Granted, it's a somewhat roundabout way to say it, but I believe that's what he's getting at. He wants you to drop your preconception and see things from the powergamer/elitist's point of view.

I could be wrong, though. :D

[Steiner-Davion]

why do you think you would get neg repped for this?

Because of replies like Postumus's

[Steiner-Davion]

You completely missed the point. He said nothing about "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game". What he said is, you can play the game how you want, but if you don't pick up on the things he listed, you will soon find that you are only accepted into groups with newer players, and that a good number of "vets" will actively avoid you. If that's how you want to play, and that's how you prefer to learn, then so be it...just don't be surprised if you get the cold shoulder from time to time.

In the end, though, even if you play your way for months, if you stick with the game for long enough, you will find that your playstyle will probably conform to what Aranticus has pointed out...it is simply an easier, more efficient method. Problem is, if you insist on not showing group leaders some simple respect, and try to play your own way, by the time you DO see the light, you will be on quite a few "lists", and that is unfortunate.

BUT, the one thing you should take from this, if not the basic idea of "listen and learn", is that the game is meant to be fun. Just like Aranticus said, powergamers have a different idea of fun, and you need to understand that...well, that works for you to. If your idea of fun is stumbling around, learning without listening, and finding things out for yourself, then go for it, but please let other people know that is the case...some people do not like that way of playing. Just like some people put "BYOH" or "in progress", or "know your way" in their LFMs, you might want to put something like "learning", or "taking it slow" in yours...give them the opportunity to chose, rather than be subjected to a game they do not enjoy.

...listen and learn...

/QFT

Great Summation of the OP!

[Steiner-Davion]

All this talk makes me, a brand new player, shy away from doing quests with anyone. I am sure I could not keep up with the experienced players.

But see, there in lies a problem that the OP wanted you to acknowledge. Know your limits, know your playstyle. We are all here to have fun, and from what I read here in your post, is that it sounds liuke you won't be able to/can't have fun playing with season experienced players until you feel more comfortable yourself.

Arming yourself with this Knowledge you can make mucher better choices when deciding to join or even form your own PUGs.

And Remember: "Knowing is half the Battle!"

[Steiner-Davion]

But see, that's what he's trying to get across...not that DDO is not a game, but that you have to strip yourself of the perception that "It's a game and should be fun". See, the inherent problem with that statement, is that it makes each person assume that DDO should be what THEY consider to be fun...that statement focuses your mind on what YOU want to do, and what YOU enjoy. The problem is, some people enjoy making the game more than just a game. Some people actually look at this game as a hobby, or even a challenge, and what they consider to be fun is not the same as what you or I consider to be fun. Basically what it boils down to is that the statement "it's a game and it should be fun" naturally engenders a somewhat selfish ideal, whereas, the OP wants to make you step back and realize that this is not just a game to everyone, and what is fun to one person is not fun to others.

Granted, it's a somewhat roundabout way to say it, but I believe that's what he's getting at. He wants you to drop your preconception and see things from the powergamer/elitist's point of view.

I could be wrong, though. :D



No I think you nailed it right on the head. (unless I'm misreading/misinterpreting it too :D )

[Ainimache]

Just wanted to say I never said, nor meant, though I can see how someone might read it that way, that it's just a game. But it IS a game.

It's a game that can be someone's hobby. Or their timekiller. Or their social network.

But no matter what, most people who play, play to have fun. However they have fun.

It took me a while to understand (rather than just accept), but I do understand somewhat now the power gamers. I can't think that it would ever be fun for me, but I do see some of the appeal.

But you're all right, the hardest part for most players is the empathy, or at least acceptance, that there are many ways to have fun with this game. The trick then is to find others who find fun the same way you do.

So, everybody have fun! :) So long as it's not at another's unwilling expense.

[GreatOwl]

Well, I think that in truth the major problem is that a lot of people don’t use their brains when playing. As complex and vast as this game is, it’s not quantum physics or nuclear engineering and just thinking about what it is you are doing will take you a long way. When you meet people who simply refuse to think is frustrating not only for old timers but for new players too.

The second problem is communication. I greatly appreciate when people put “zerg” or “know your way”, or “no noobs” in their LFMs because that tells me clearly and with no mistake that you don’t want to party with me and I don’t want to party with you; we end up not meeting and be happier. The problem arises when one gets into a group and just plays “his way” regardless. That’s infuriating, but new players aren’t the only ones guilty of doing that.

As for myself, I am a new player and never had problems with the so called “vets.” On the contrary, I’ve learned a great deal from them and received lots of much appreciated advice. In part may be the server I play on (although I’m sure there are friendly people elsewhere too) In part because I never join the above mentioned LFMs. As a matter of fact I don’t join BYOH groups either; it might be my newbie perspective but to me they don’t translate into “be sure to have some pots/wands with you” it translates into “be willing and able to solo this quest because I don’t need you, and don’t expect help because I couldn’t care less about you, and if I feel extremely good I MIGHT pick up your stone if you so happen to make a mistake” ... yeah I don't join those either.

[PopeJual]

Now that we've seen your expectations of a New Player, I have a followup question.

What's your definition of a boombastic jazz style?

[sephiroth1084]

All this talk makes me, a brand new player, shy away from doing quests with anyone. I am sure I could not keep up with the experienced players.
Don't feel that way.

Instead, make sure to gauge your experience and strengths, and be honest with yourself and those you're grouping with. As Aranticus said, if you're a new player, don't join a quest up on elite that you've never run before--that's just an example of gauging yourself.

On the flip-side, when you join a group, if you aren't sure what to do, ask. Ask questions. About anything: where to go, what you should be doing, what to expect, what weapons or spells you may need, what gear you should have or for advice about your character. As long as you aren't being pushy about it I'm sure some people will step up and lend you a hand. The thing that ****es me (and most other vets I know) off more than almost anything else is players who appear to be wafting through the game, looking for a free ride, who clearly are making no effort to contribute to their groups. The folks whose first words upon joining a party are, "Share please," rather than asking where the quest giver is, or even a general salutation.

I can't speak for everyone, but in my groups, if you're asking questions and genuinely trying, I'll put up with quite a bit of noobishness, go slower, explain things in great detail (even things that you won't be doing yourself, such as what the rogue who ran off in the other direction is doing, or why that caster is waiting there, etc...).

[Ethiel]

Great post Aranticus, really liked section 5, I am a long time PNP gamer and it was a world of learning to understand how they had to adjust it for DDO.

great post.

[Stitch78]

In the end, though, even if you play your way for months, if you stick with the game for long enough, you will find that your playstyle will probably conform to what Aranticus has pointed out...it is simply an easier, more efficient method.

+1 and QFT

On the other hand... this post makes me laugh because it is a zoomed-in version of adults vs. kids. Adults are always trying to tell kids: "Just do it my way - my way is faster, cheaper, easier, more reliable and, frankly, what everyone expects you to do!" Kids are always firing back at adults, although less articulately: "I wanna learn to do it MY way not YOUR way!!"

Age old dilema which is not going to be resolved any time soon. (Personally, I can't get enough advice in game. Even bad advice, once I recognize it as bad, is helpful as something NOT to do. But not everyone feels this way.)

People who have been playing for five years are only going to get MORE frustrated with new players. That is because you will always be gaining more and more experience, learning new tricks, mastering new techniques and so on. And there will always be some brand new, welcome-to-Korthos player who knows exactly nothing. Making you scream at your screen as they pull every lever in Delera's, LFM Taming the Flames on elite and FO of Shroud 1st. And, because of natural attrition, there will, from this point on (unless F2P is removed) always be more newbs than vets. Pryamid shaped layout.

And that, in sum, is why no one really wants to live forever. Deep man. Deep.

[DANTEIL]

All day long the OP in this thread has been bothering me. I can't exactly put my finger on it, because I actually think that much of it is good and useful from a perspective-taking standpoint. I think that my discomfort has something to do with how I am perceiving the attitude or degree of arrogance in the way it is written, especially the first part about "perception."

Anyway, I decided to try to turn it around and use the same framing etc to write something from the other perspective. I hope that this is taken in the way that it is intended -- as my attempt to share some of the other side. I truly believe, though, that accommodating these kinds of differences will take some effort and movement from all sides, rather than putting the burden solely upon one group only. After writing this, I still don't know whether to be despairing or hopeful about whether this kind of issue can be resolved. I have increasingly been thinking about how some DDO players seem to be playing a different game than me (as a non powergamer). What I do know, however, is that there is a tremendously huge middle ground between the clueless annoying noob/newb and the know-it-all elite vet. The issue is whether segregation is really the answer, I guess.

=-=-=-=

1. perception
Many people have the idea that DDO is a game and must therefore be fun. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people must feel like their more basic needs like security and health are met before they can address higher-level needs like achievement, respect of and by others, and creativity and problem-solving. The needs of a casual player are very different from a powergamer. The needs of a new player are also different from a vet. A lot of powergamers think that newer players are short-sighted dilettantes who are only looking to have "fun."

This is a wrong perception. Many newer players are also interested in succeeding at the game, in their own way, given their limitations. Their fun is NOT about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava, and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. Who would find that fun? A newer player's interest is often about acquiring better gear and mastering the game well enough to improve their ability to achieve feats of soloing, speed, etc. While it is true that newer players may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counterspell, etc "fun," this does not prevent them from wanting to experience the game in other ways as well and certainly doesn't automatically put them in the easily-dismissed category of "flower-sniffers." The reality is that most players are probably in the middle -- trying to learn the game but without the knowledge or gear yet to really master the game the same way that many veteran players have. Yet, some veteran players treat play-style not as a continuum, but as a category: Anyone who does not 'max' the game (either in speed or gear or XX) is a flower-sniffer. This is unfair because it treats what often is a circumstance (lack of gear/experience) as a choice (a phantom "decision" to traipse merrily through dungeons).

2. build
It is true that newer players often misunderstand balance and min-maxing. It is often true, and understandable, that new players generally think of balance as something which allows them to meet new things head on and to be prepared by means of spreading out the abilities, and that min-maxing is something that implies the maxing of certain abilities at the expense of others. Newer players also probably don't realize right away that DDO is not a proportional game. However, some newer players will care about this, while others won't. Obviously, min-maxing is a spectacularly good way to "succeed" at DDO in higher levels, but it is not the only way to play the game -- even at high levels. What is important for newer players to understand is the ~logic~ behind choices in build and gear -- and why some choices (like high Con) are "obvious" while other choices may be just that: Choices. Once a newer player has a handle on what the options are, then they may decide (or not) to min-max as best they can. Deciding not to do so is not a moral failing, however. If grouping with someone who doesn't have what you perceive the 'optimal' build interferes with your own ability to get what you want out of the game, then by all means avoid that person/situation. But, beyond trying to explain why some choices may be counterproductive, don't belittle or somehow demean other individuals' selections of gear and builds in the process. Making people feel defensive about something they have spent time and effort on is generally not helpful.

3. attitude
Help! This is the best advice I can give any veteran player. Newer players greatly appreciate the many resources available that you didn't have when you were first starting out. If a new player is already on the forums, then assume that they want to learn. If you see people asking naive or "dumb" (but seemingly sincere) questions in the game, don't ignore them, refer them to the forums if you don't feel like answering their questions directly. (If they're jerks, you can ignore them.) During quests, do not hesitate to create an atmosphere where newer players can ask questions. Many newer players are hesitant to speak up because everyone else seemingly knows exactly what to do or are talking and laughing about other things and it seems noobish to interrupt to ask questions like "What does that lever/key/NPC do?" or "How do you kill that mob?" The higher the vet-to-new ratio in the quest/raid, the more true this is. Newer players may try to ask intelligent questions but sometimes they are just simply confused and/or overwhelmed. That does not mean that they are idiots or hopeless.

Don't freak out when someone admits that they are new. Like most everyone else, new players hope to achieve 100% success as much as possible, and if they are new, they will benefit immensely from timely, clear instructions. However, you must also know where you stand. If you are a veteran player, leading newer players through a quest/raid on hard or elite will potentially be challenging and may sometimes fail. Even if they have done the quest before, they won't have done it the same 3426136 times that you have, and things that seem obvious to you won't seem obvious to them. Creating an lfm with "in progress", "byoh," "be sufficient", "zerg run", "speed" is definitely good practice if you would like to warn less experienced players about your expectations. If you are the leader of such a group, it is okay to have high expectations for what other people will do. but even in zerg groups basic communication can go a long way. Inevitably, you will get people who join whose idea of 'self-sufficient' or 'zerg' will differ from yours. This doesn't mean that they are bad people. (Unless they are jerks. Luckily, the 'jerk' category cuts across the new/vet divide.)

Be humble. When telling people that a certain thing needs to be done, be prepared to explain why. Newer players don't have ESP, and generally are eager to learn strategies and game mechanics, especially since many quests/raid completion runs are quite established and usually have a best tried and tested method. They won't always have the gear/skill to smoothly accomplish those goals, but they want to contribute. Most importantly, it's about communication. If doing something differently could have an especially negative impact, let people know about this ahead of time. If that negative thing happens, chalk it up to part of the challenge of grouping with other people and take a moment to explain why that was negative. If someone seems resistant to your constructively-offered advice to get more than 150 HP at L20, then simply shrug your shoulders and walk away at least knowing that you tried. However, don't assume that all newer players are creating toons with 150 HP at L20 just to spite you. Not everyone in the game has the benefit of belonging to a top-flight established guild with lots of guildies to give solid advice. Sometimes it is indeed simple ignorance.


4. equipment
Some new players are on their first character and won't have a ton of plat saved up yet. Even if they are aware that status removal and healing pots are typically the least anyone should have, their resources for obtaining sufficient numbers of these may not always be the greatest. If they seem surprised that such pots might be necessary, then by all means explain this to them, but try to do this in a way that doesn't make them defensive. Some newer players, yes, will be jerks about wanting immediate curing, but that jerk could be anyone, not just someone new. Not every player has played a cleric and may not always be aware of the demands on healers. On the other hand, it's okay to let a newer player die. Death is often the best teacher. However, if they seem to be dying a lot, it's also helpful to take a moment to tell them that buying potions etc is a useful way to avoid some deaths. They may not listen to you, but at least you tried. But, most newer players, like anyone, would like to avoid dying! Helping them learn ways to avoid dying is a good thing for all concerned.

Gear wise, realize that newer players, especially those unfamiliar to D&D mechanics, often have no idea what is needed. If weapons such as a vorpal, smiter, disrupter, paralyser and a metalline of pure good/holy silver/metalline flametouched iron/etc are good for quests/raids, then let newer players know this, especially if something specific is needed for a particular quest. Explain what the advantages are. Explain DR on mobs, and help newer players learn which kind of DR is associated with which mob. You can refer them to ddowiki, of course, but often right there in the quest is a useful teachable moment. Again, newer players want to learn how to contribute. Heavy fortification is something else that is important to continue to explain, especially since it *prevents* a bad effect rather than *creates* a good one. Unlike damage bonuses, which produces obvious big numbers on mobs, it is harder for newer players to realize when gear is helping them avoid things, because the information isn't as readily apparent. Also, tell newer players what gear to look out for on the AH or as end rewards. A lot of the prefixes and suffixes on weapons look awesome but not all of them are good in reality, as you know. Newer players don't know this. Note: if you don't feel like explaining/teaching in a quest, then don't. That's fine. But, if that's the case, either don't group with newer players to begin with or be prepared to accept the fact that they may make mistakes that you can do nothing about. It happens.


5. PnP
Some players will come from a PnP background. This is both good and bad. While many of the weapons and mobs will be familiar to them, it won't be obvious at first that DDO is a whole new world, and that lots of things in PnP don't work the same way in DDO. This may require extra patience, especially when you see different players making the same false assumptions over and over. At the same time, some newer players won't care that you have played DDO since beta (many will, but some won't). That's just human nature. This doesn't mean that they don't want to learn the game, but rather that their game experience is going to be necessarily very different from what yours was. MMOs evolve, pure and simple. The "I walked uphill both ways" card is rarely taken positively.


In summary, this isn't to say that you can't continue to enjoy the game the way that you have until now. Of course you can, but if you adamantly want to preserve the purity of your ideal experience, then you might consider doing it only with people you already know to be like-minded players. However, if you *are* going to run endgame stuff with newer players (and I hope you do!), be prepared to take into account the fact that not everyone will have had the opportunity yet to raise their game to your level. This doesn't mean that they won't want to learn and try and improve. And while some of them will probably give up or fail or be annoying, not all of them will. Some will slowly over time grow and improve - but they won't do this overnight. After all, it took you 2-3-4 years to achieve your level of game experience and gear. Newer players have to deal with something that you never ever had to deal with in all your experience: A highly-visible cohort of powerful veteran experienced players who have mastered the most challenging parts of the game. It is natural that they would want to learn from you, but also natural to be frustrated at times by feeling excluded from easy access to that world. If you choose to not admit other players into your runs, then this is of course your right and your choice - you should have fun in the game that way that you feel is right. In fact, careful screening may be for the best if running with less experienced players makes you angry or upset or frustrated. But, don't be mistaken that this is anything other than a form of elitism. I'd like to think, however, that new players are not mutually exclusive with your kind of fun, at least not in the long run.

[Aranticus]

wonderful +1 to ya. everything is about perception. the way to empathise about others is to make what you feel to others so in return, they let u know what they feel


The issue is whether segregation is really the answer, I guess.

segregation is never the answer to anything. ask rosa parks


The reality is that most players are probably in the middle -- trying to learn the game but without the knowledge or gear yet to really master the game the same way that many veteran players have. Yet, some veteran players treat play-style not as a continuum, but as a category: Anyone who does not 'max' the game (either in speed or gear or XX) is a flower-sniffer. This is unfair because it treats what often is a circumstance (lack of gear/experience) as a choice (a phantom "decision" to traipse merrily through dungeons).

the seasoned player must realise that there are various types of new players and these too have the capability to learn and grow. in the same way, not all vets are the selfish zerg types. many newer players think all vets must be elitist, unfortunately they have no idea


What is important for newer players to understand is the ~logic~ behind choices in build and gear -- and why some choices (like high Con) are "obvious" while other choices may be just that: Choices. Once a newer player has a handle on what the options are, then they may decide (or not) to min-max as best they can.

But, beyond trying to explain why some choices may be counterproductive, don't belittle or somehow demean other individuals' selections of gear and builds in the process. Making people feel defensive about something they have spent time and effort on is generally not helpful.

this is where most of the misunderstanding comes in. even with logic, some will still argue with you based on schematics or definition of certain words. its sometimes wise for a newer player to shut up and listen instead of arguing every single detail (forums is a very good place to see this happening)

as to the vets, do not force the information down their throat. if a newbie want to learn it the hard way, let him do so. if they continuously exhibit that kind of mentality, ignore. focus your attention on those who genuninely wants to learn



If a new player is already on the forums, then assume that they want to learn

When telling people that a certain thing needs to be done, be prepared to explain why.They won't always have the gear/skill to smoothly accomplish those goals, but they want to contribute.

Most importantly, it's about communication. If doing something differently could have an especially negative impact, let people know about this ahead of time. If that negative thing happens, chalk it up to part of the challenge of grouping with other people and take a moment to explain why that was negative.

i wouldnt go with assuming anything, if the forums is any indication, some of the newer players join just to be a royal pain in the behind

skill-wise, we cant do too much but item wise ive been giving out random pieces of useful loot in the marketplace to help equip random players. i also keep a bank worth of DR bypassing weapons for newer players to loan when tacking the higher content. these are just some ways the vets are contributing back

take negative feedback positively. it helps a person grow. it doesnt matter that much if i only say nice things. its the bad things that usually kills. ie if you driving instructor only tells you how well you stop the car or accelerate but doesnt tell you that you are driving on the wrong side. if a new player has a great idea and if you are too afraid to say it out, PM the leader before the quests start. if the leader doesnt take up the suggestion, do not take it to heart


Some new players are on their first character and won't have a ton of plat saved up yet.

On the other hand, it's okay to let a newer player die. Death is often the best teacher.

vets can really help here by offloading certain gear into the brokers instead of AH. some players have been profiteering from newer players and i do my best to stop these players by calling them out in general chat. that said, its not unreasonable to save up some plat for some pots. we do not need players to have 100 of each. maybe 10-20 is a good number to start more importantly, there isnt a need to buy each and every piece of gear off the AH

dying is the best teacher, i cant agree with you more


MMOs evolve, pure and simple. The "I walked uphill both ways" card is rarely taken positively.

learn and let go, be always prepared to face things in a different light

[donnala]

Don't feel that way.

Instead, make sure to gauge your experience and strengths, and be honest with yourself and those you're grouping with. As Aranticus said, if you're a new player, don't join a quest up on elite that you've never run before--that's just an example of gauging yourself.

On the flip-side, when you join a group, if you aren't sure what to do, ask. Ask questions. About anything: where to go, what you should be doing, what to expect, what weapons or spells you may need, what gear you should have or for advice about your character. As long as you aren't being pushy about it I'm sure some people will step up and lend you a hand. The thing that ****es me (and most other vets I know) off more than almost anything else is players who appear to be wafting through the game, looking for a free ride, who clearly are making no effort to contribute to their groups. The folks whose first words upon joining a party are, "Share please," rather than asking where the quest giver is, or even a general salutation.

I can't speak for everyone, but in my groups, if you're asking questions and genuinely trying, I'll put up with quite a bit of noobishness, go slower, explain things in great detail (even things that you won't be doing yourself, such as what the rogue who ran off in the other direction is doing, or why that caster is waiting there, etc...).

My goal is to learn as much as I can about the game before I play with anyone. I fear reading a thread of how I ruined someone's fun because I made a mistake. I am just a beginner and there is a great deal to learn.

It seems to me that most people take this game very seriously and mistakes are very much frowned upon. It is threads like this that scare me enough to keep soloing so when I do make mistakes I am the only one who knows it.

The good thing for me is that I learn from what I do wrong, but I still think it will take a very long time before I will be confident enough to play with the experienced players.

[lazylaz]

What server are you on Donnala? I'm more than happy to run a few quests with you if you're on Khyber. I wont mind if you ask questions the whole time or make any mistakes :)

[donnala]

What server are you on Donnala? I'm more than happy to run a few quests with you if you're on Khyber. I wont mind if you ask questions the whole time or make any mistakes :)

Yes I have a character on Khyber. This is a very kind offer and I will give it some thought. Still being so new I worry that I am not good enough.

Thank you for your kind offer though.

Donnala

[pSINNa]

I've really got no idea what all the chest puffing and brow beating is all about.

The original post made a great deal of sense.

I found it in no way at all offensive to anyone (unless their sensibilities are a little too fine tuned).

Taking the advice given on board could save you a lot of frustration and wasted time.


I have no idea why some people seem to be reading more into it then what was said.

If i could +1 you OP, i would.

Coit out~

[lazylaz]

Yes I have a character on Khyber. This is a very kind offer and I will give it some thought. Still being so new I worry that I am not good enough.

Thank you for your kind offer though.

Donnala

No problem, really. Send me a PM on the forums here and we can hook up a time that suits if you ever want to. I don't know everything but I know plenty, and have a fair bit of patience.

Good luck anyway.

:)

[Postumus]

many newer players think all vets must be elitist, unfortunately they have no idea


I don't think that, but when you phrase statements like this:




its sometimes wise for a newer player to shut up and listen


This:


if the forums is any indication, some of the newer players join just to be a royal pain in the behind


And this:


take negative feedback positively. it helps a person grow.



It sounds condescending and self-important to me, and really detracts from what you are trying to communicate. It didn't help that you began the thread with one of the classic arrogant statements of all time (paraphrasing): "I know some of you won't agree with me, but this is the truth."


I'm not trying to be inflammatory here, I'm just giving you my honest impression as a new player.


You might also consider that it isn't what you are trying to tell new players, or the personalities of the players themselves that cause them to ignore your message, so much as how you communicate it to them.


If you could focus more on the content of your message rather than the righteousness of it, I think you'd find the new player portion of your audience more likely to listen to what you have to say.


As it is now, your message is coming across as "You kids today! When I was your age blah blah blah..."


Who wants to listen to that?

[Mr_Ed7]

That's a lot of hot air OP.

There are plenty of us "vets" that still play to have fun and "stop and smell the roses".

Your post offered some advice but I feel it was more doom than encouraging words.

To quote a recent EPIC run:

Other Guy (#6 spot): "YOU MUST HAVE THE PROPER GEAR TO COMPLETE EPIC QUESTS OR DONT BOTHER.

GAME: QUEST COMPLETE

ME: "Well none of us have the "proper" gear and we just completed the quest, so what does that mean?"


So what you are purporting as some sort of "truth", that to have fun one must:


Stack numbers
Know what your doing or don't bother
Have the "proper" gear



All of the above are unneccesary to fully enjoy this game.

Once again your opinion is wrong. :rolleyes:

[Postumus]

My goal is to learn as much as I can about the game before I play with anyone. I fear reading a thread of how I ruined someone's fun because I made a mistake. I am just a beginner and there is a great deal to learn.

It seems to me that most people take this game very seriously and mistakes are very much frowned upon. It is threads like this that scare me enough to keep soloing so when I do make mistakes I am the only one who knows it.




A lot of us new players are like little kids right now. We're just running around exploring with wide-eyed excitement, and enjoying the hell out of this game. We're making mistakes, and picking classes, gear, feats, races b/c they look or sound cool, not b/c some min/maxer has spent 800 hours analyzing why a WF sorcerer is better than an elven one.


Eventually we'll figure out what works and what doesn't as we accumulate bruises and bumps along the way.


Eventually we'll figure out that CON is king and giving fighters 14 CHA doesn't translate into DDO the same way it does PnP. We'll figure out what order to do quests and what gear stacks with what.


We'll learn what questions to ask and how to ask them; and THAT is when we will need your advice the most. When we come looking for it.


But the non-stop complaining, nitpicking, and un-solicited criticism of our play is a real buzzkill.



Remember that scene in Willy Wonka where all the kids are let into the chocolate factory for the first time and they all run around exploring and tasting everything in sight? Now imagine that Gene Wilder started criticizing their choices and actions:




"Charlie, you NooB! Get away from those daffodil teacups! Don't you know there is higher sugar content and more flavor in the giant gummy bears hanging from the tree??"


"Veruca, I told you to stop wasting your time eating that grass! If you want to maximize your mint experience, you should be concentrating on the candy lily pads! Everyone knows they're FIVE TIMES MINTIER!"



So yeah, it kinda comes across like that.

[Aranticus]

If you could focus more on the content of your message rather than the righteousness of it, I think you'd find the new player portion of your audience more likely to listen to what you have to say

i'm not being self righteous about it, what i'm doing over here is to give you what the season players perceive lock stock and barrel. i'm not going to politically correct and cuddle people. such things have been going on long enough

[Aranticus]

That's a lot of hot air OP.

There are plenty of us "vets" that still play to have fun and "stop and smell the roses".

Your post offered some advice but I feel it was more doom than encouraging words.

To quote a recent EPIC run:

Other Guy (#6 spot): "YOU MUST HAVE THE PROPER GEAR TO COMPLETE EPIC QUESTS OR DONT BOTHER.

GAME: QUEST COMPLETE

ME: "Well none of us have the "proper" gear and we just completed the quest, so what does that mean?"


So what you are purporting as some sort of "truth", that to have fun one must:


Stack numbers
Know what your doing or don't bother
Have the "proper" gear



All of the above are unneccesary to fully enjoy this game.

Once again your opinion is wrong. :rolleyes:

lol MrEd7, we all know your history ;)

[PopeJual]

That's a lot of hot air OP.

There are plenty of us "vets" that still play to have fun and "stop and smell the roses".

Your post offered some advice but I feel it was more doom than encouraging words.

To quote a recent EPIC run:

Other Guy (#6 spot): "YOU MUST HAVE THE PROPER GEAR TO COMPLETE EPIC QUESTS OR DONT BOTHER.

GAME: QUEST COMPLETE

ME: "Well none of us have the "proper" gear and we just completed the quest, so what does that mean?"


So what you are purporting as some sort of "truth", that to have fun one must:


Stack numbers
Know what your doing or don't bother
Have the "proper" gear


All of the above are unneccesary to fully enjoy this game.

Once again your opinion is wrong. :rolleyes:

You misread the original post.

The only "necessary" gear at high level is a Fortification item. Even that isn't necessary if you enjoy spending time in people's backpacks.

Being able to listen to other people and being able to follow directions is necessary. There is no "one true plan" for solving any particular quest. When the party is following 6 different plans simultaneously, however...

[Folonius]

The only "necessary" gear at high level is a Fortification item.

I ran epic wizard king twice without a fort item on my healer and didn't die. Was to lazy to get the tapestries to get the minos helm.

Got it a few weeks ago, and ran epic wiz king a few more times since then. It's easier with a heavy fort item, but it's not necessary to complete. Maybe it's required by other classes, but as a FvS healer, it wasn't necessary.

[PopeJual]

Eventually we'll figure out what works and what doesn't as we accumulate bruises and bumps along the way.


Eventually we'll figure out that CON is king and giving fighters 14 CHA doesn't translate into DDO the same way it does PnP. We'll figure out what order to do quests and what gear stacks with what.


We'll learn what questions to ask and how to ask them; and THAT is when we will need your advice the most. When we come looking for it.

If every player actually hit that stage, then there would be no need for posts like the OP. :)

I'm guessing that you're going to be fine. The spellcasters who wander through end game content with 0% fortification, no Haste, no Firewall and no instant-kill spells and are consistantly confused about why they are /kicked out of parties when the quest is finished are the ones that need this post.

Sadly, most of them will never read it. With luck, a few will. With even more luck, they might start to listen to some suggestions.

[dogonovo]

Great thread. I would like to add a few things to the suggestion list (both sides) if the OP agrees.

Massively Multiplayer means people from all over the world will be playing the game. Different cultures/nationalities will have very, very different ways of using English and some wil definetely sound more or less polite/angry/serious/ironic/derrogative to some or even all. This added to the fact that the Internet doesnt have body language (except for emotes, liked for some, loathed by others) is already the generator of enough player hate as it is. This thread will likely motivate and/or terrify new players solely based on tone, even before meaning comes into play. Which is natural and expected in human relations, methinks. I dont know, this is something I always try to think about and sincerely I believe it has helped me in all games I have played online so far.

May also be valid for both sides to consider the other MMORPGs on the market and being played in the last years. PvP is the focus there, and saying you are new to the game will (maybe not immediately, but surely) cause you to have your playing session interrupted by a Player Killer who is 87 levels higher than you are, or a group of them. Not getting at all into the good/bad credit of the matter this alone will make the vast majority of people who come to DDO without reading the forums first to be very very wary of telling potential griefers that they are new and have no back up high level friends to prevent their (supposedly to come) "bullying".

Now since I mentioned the forums, I have to say I am very spoiled by what I believe were the most civil game boards for years, and had to adjust before I could really opine on these boards. But one thing is becoming more and more evident to me.

It doesnt matter how good or bad the new players of this game are, I sincerely feel that the VAST majority of old time posters here (arrogant, humble, helpful, misleading, any and all) feel it is for the BEST that new players are made familiar with game mechanics, equipment solutions/needs, potions, etc. Older posters/players are interested in setting a standard as to what is expected from you if you want to have freedom to still play your own game and have your own fun while making sure different levels of expertise and players with different expectations also have theirs.

It may take time, but if this attitude is kept, I really believe DDO has a very bright future for the relations between new players and all kinds of "vets". Provided PvP doesnt become a meaningful (as in game mechanics wise, not human experience) part of the game, in that case, it all goes downhill. There will be less and less interest in sharing what can give "opponents" any advantage.

[PopeJual]

I ran epic wizard king twice without a fort item on my healer and didn't die. Was to lazy to get the tapestries to get the minos helm.

Got it a few weeks ago, and ran epic wiz king a few more times since then. It's easier with a heavy fort item, but it's not necessary to complete. Maybe it's required by other classes, but as a FvS healer, it wasn't necessary.

You are correct. A Nannybot does not require fortification. That is not true of any character who might actually engage in combat ever.

I prefer to actually particpate in quests and not just keep the [my blue bar] == [their red bar] calculator running in the background while I nod off.

Cleric = awesome class with enormous potential for various roles in every quest.
Favored Soul = awesome class with enormous potential for various roles in every quest.
Nannybot = boring piece of dreck.

[Postumus]

All day long the OP in this thread has been bothering me. I can't exactly put my finger on it, because I actually think that much of it is good and useful from a perspective-taking standpoint. I think that my discomfort has something to do with how I am perceiving the attitude or degree of arrogance in the way it is written, especially the first part about "perception."

Anyway, I decided to try to turn it around and use the same framing etc to write something from the other perspective. I hope that this is taken in the way that it is intended -


Wow. What a great post. THIS should be stickied. Super kudos!


Well written, coherent, spelling, grammar, well thought out... just a great post.


Thank you for this.



PS- I laughed out loud at this:



Their fun is NOT about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava, and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. Who would find that fun?

[MeliCat]

I ran epic wizard king twice without a fort item on my healer and didn't die. Was to lazy to get the tapestries to get the minos helm.

Got it a few weeks ago, and ran epic wiz king a few more times since then. It's easier with a heavy fort item, but it's not necessary to complete. Maybe it's required by other classes, but as a FvS healer, it wasn't necessary.

epic or elite?

hmmm... that could be an amusing challenge to run epic wizking without full fort... but as PopeJual mentioned nannybots (the way i epic on my cleric for the most part) don't really need it.


dear OP, i know you and like you but the way you have phrased some of your points is going to put some people off. when i started this game the amount of basic basic information thrust at me was OVERWHELMING. it remained that way for months. i do not like the way new players are overwhelmed with "do this! do this! do this!". there needs to be space for them to explore and make their own mistakes. there also needs to be space for people who learn in different ways. so some people like to read theory and then work out how to apply theory. some people like either visual or written examples. some people like to be talked through and example and only one thing at a time. some people need repetition in different settings and other people get things first go becuase it's similar to something else they've done. everyone learns things different ways.

i love the wiki but it's very purist and minimalist - more examples of things in there and how things worked would have helped me a lot.

the forums are great but very mish mash. everytually you find guides that you can sort of follow blindly hoping that you will understand later. only now am i beginning to grasp some of the things i blindly followed back then.

and LOTS of misinformation from various players out there who sound so so confident. lol. but still pugging and mixing it in with others is one of the best ways to learn although it can be scary, offensive or disgusting at times.

i think you just need to give newer players time and space to work out what they want/need. although yes, it's painful if they turn up in your raid at level 20 not listening - but those sorts of players get a reputation and they'll either learn or be avoided...

[Postumus]

I don't think anyone is going to change their play because Aranticus disapproves of their game play. I do think that there are people who enjoy seeing good advice and who want to improve their play and posts like Aranticus's are a good source of game tips for the people who already want to better themselves.

Great post. I won't quote the whole thing, but I did read it and appreciate what you have to say.


I think, for me, the biggest issue with the OP is the tone (which I've addressed).

[voodoogroves]

Excellent post.

The converse of of your point about playing the game for fun is ALSO true. That dude in Korthos who was Sorc 2 and about to take Rogue 1 at level 3 because it would make him a god is ALSO having fun. It isn't what I'd consider fun, but he's enjoying the build.

I think the gap is the different metagames within the game.

- doing any quests when you don't know them already ... and all the little tricks, shortcuts, etc.
- doing a quest at level for the first time on a server without a higher level char bankrolling tou
- doing quests with some bank / twink but still relatively at-level
- doing quests completely decked out where your guards kill more things than you actively do, etc.
- doing quests as 20s to farm quickly (less risk, more reward ... you're collecting not trying as much to "beat" the quest)
- etc.

The failures and disagreements come when people make assumptions around certain of these and other meta-game characteristics and place their values and conditions on the choices others have made. The gap is there and very real ... and as you point out, growing. Players that have been around longer can keep farming and those benefits are passed directly to their spanking new level 1s that start beside the complete new players in Korthos. The assumptions of one placed on another - whether objectively correct / better / more-efficient or not are still not based on a common set of understanding.


my DDO fighter has 700 buff hp, 70 str, 70 AC. i'm an equivalent of a PnP god.

Meh, you're no druid, cleric, wizard or sorc ... so you still die in one round ;-)

[Postumus]

ask around, i helped A LOT of players. you have no idea what i do, whom i helped, what i said.

That's great. I hoped you strive to keep helping people.

I suggest you read the re-written version of your post by Daniel (sp?). If you could learn to be 1/2 that diplomatic and incorporate 1/2 the empathy of that post in your 'teachings', you would be even more helpful to new players.

/thumbs up

[MeliCat]

That's great. I hoped you strive to keep helping people.

I suggest you read the re-written version of your post by Daniel (sp?). If you could learn to be 1/2 that diplomatic and incorporate 1/2 the empathy of that post in your 'teachings', you would be even more helpful to new players.

/thumbs up

and it's attitudes and rudeness like this that makes me ashamed to be a newer player.

pull your head in please. you're not going to get your point across if you are so nasty about it.

[Wizzly_Bear]

[snip]
+1 for preachin' the truth brotherman

PS What's your secret? I'm generally hated for this type of thing. hmmm...Maybe if I said I wasn't a native English speak too...I am from Texas afterall :eek::cool:

[Postumus]

and it's attitudes and rudeness like this that makes me ashamed to be a newer player.

pull your head in please. you're not going to get your point across if you are so nasty about it.


So I guess you buying me that drink at the Lobster is now out of the question? :)

[sephiroth1084]

My goal is to learn as much as I can about the game before I play with anyone. I fear reading a thread of how I ruined someone's fun because I made a mistake. I am just a beginner and there is a great deal to learn.

It seems to me that most people take this game very seriously and mistakes are very much frowned upon. It is threads like this that scare me enough to keep soloing so when I do make mistakes I am the only one who knows it.

The good thing for me is that I learn from what I do wrong, but I still think it will take a very long time before I will be confident enough to play with the experienced players.
Everyone has screwed up a quest (most more than once), and have had a thread written about them, or by them apologizing for screwing up X quest or raid. I know I have.

My point, is that you should ask questions in groups, and let the leader know you are new, but trying. Don't feel you have to isolate yourself from the rest of the populace, as that is definitely not what I, or Aranticus, intended with our posts.

[JDCrowell]

My goal is to learn as much as I can about the game before I play with anyone. I fear reading a thread of how I ruined someone's fun because I made a mistake. I am just a beginner and there is a great deal to learn.

It seems to me that most people take this game very seriously and mistakes are very much frowned upon. It is threads like this that scare me enough to keep soloing so when I do make mistakes I am the only one who knows it.

The good thing for me is that I learn from what I do wrong, but I still think it will take a very long time before I will be confident enough to play with the experienced players.

I felt the same way when I started. I was very intimidated by the fact that I just started and people had been playing this for 4 years now. So I soloed everything until I tried soloing Irrestone Inlet at level 4. HAHA
That was the first time I put up an LFM and ran with a group. I never looked back after that.
You just have to dive in there and It will all work itself out. There are actually some nice players out there that will teach you the game and show you some cool stuff you wouldn't figure out if you did it solo.

[Postumus]

Everyone has screwed up a quest (most more than once), and have had a thread written about them, or by them apologizing for screwing up X quest or raid. I know I have.

My point, is that you should ask questions in groups, and let the leader know you are new, but trying. Don't feel you have to isolate yourself from the rest of the populace, as that is definitely not what I, or Aranticus, intended with our posts.



In theory this is great advice. In practice, my experience with PUGs has been the following:


I get a blind invitation to a party from someone I don't know.


I like PUGs so I accept.


We start the quest and it is a NON-STOP sprint to the finish. If I didn't have +10% speed boots, I would never be able to keep up with people. If I stop to type anything anywhere other than at a shrine, I'm spending the rest of the time trying to catch up.


No one is on mike. No one types anything except the occasional "should we do objective X or objective Y first?". No instructions. No advice. Nothing.


The longest exchange I've ever had with another player was when a 'vet' player, the leader, thought his monk was the second coming of Jason Bourne and ran off into the dungeon by himself. He got cornered by kobolds and began yelling at me to come find him and heal him.




MONK: Heal me!


ME: Where did you go?

MONK: I'm the BLUE DOT!


ME: There are FIVE other blue dots! Which one are you?

And so on, and so forth.


We did get a brief Aranticusesque lecture about how "none of you know what you're doing!" right before he rage quit.


Not sure if that counts as advice.

[Bodic]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

We may be old or old school, but we understand one small concept Respect for each other. I just ran a PUG quest on my Favored Soul as the only healer lvl14(Madstone elite) and spent most of my SP on BB, GC, and SL. I still did my job and didnt complain that the 2 tanks were WF they barely needed any heals. Now if someone with your level of Expertise could handle me not paying much attention to your Red bar then you fit in with the better class of players. DDO is not handed to you on silver platter, and a little understanding goes a long way. Suck it up and listen to what others have to say. One thing I have noticed is that a person that has been playing the game a month thinks they have Won DDO, and dont need to listen.

[lazylaz]

Postumus!

Never accept a blind invite. That's my piece of advice. If they aren't polite enough to ask first then you don't want to group with them. And the guy probably wasn't a vet.

[k0ukla]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

As a new player myself I agree with Aranticus, and happen to therefore disagree with you, you know sometimes you wait 30 mins or so sometimes more to fill with a good/great group to raid with the last thing we want is to waste another 20-30 mins on a raid that fails because someone is new and doesnt speak up or has their own perception of fun - while others are just trying to get another raid done with maybe some good loot and get closer to their 20th/40th etc completion...

I'm far from experienced in the game and have plenty left to learn but even I dont wish to stop and smell every rose on every quest every time i do it....

[Postumus]

Postumus!

Never accept a blind invite. That's my piece of advice. If they aren't polite enough to ask first then you don't want to group with them. And the guy probably wasn't a vet.


I don't know if he was or not. He said something to that effect, but who knows.


I get blind invited constantly - I'm sure it's b/c of my cleric - to the point I have to turn off my invite option to be able to solo or do errands in Stormreach.


At this point, the blind invite is the norm for me. Every PUG has been fair to great and almost always fun. I've only been in one group so far that had a jack @ss like that monk, but after he left the rest of the group reformed and I had the best PUG experience to date.


It's kind of creepy how no one talks to each other. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing with NPCs. But I'm getting used to it.

[Spoprockel]

In theory this is great advice. In practice, my experience with PUGs has been the following:


I get a blind invitation to a party from someone I don't know.


I like PUGs so I accept.


We start the quest and it is a NON-STOP sprint to the finish. If I didn't have +10% speed boots, I would never be able to keep up with people. If I stop to type anything anywhere other than at a shrine, I'm spending the rest of the time trying to catch up.


No one is on mike. No one types anything except the occasional "should we do objective X or objective Y first?". No instructions. No advice. Nothing.


The longest exchange I've ever had with another player was when a 'vet' player, the leader, thought his monk was the second coming of Jason Bourne and ran off into the dungeon by himself. He got cornered by kobolds and began yelling at me to come find him and heal him.



And so on, and so forth.


We did get a brief Aranticusesque lecture about how "none of you know what you're doing!" right before he rage quit.


Not sure if that counts as advice.


That's what you can expect from blind invites.
I've long ago stopped accepting blind invites on my cleric, just because you don't know
where it will take you.
And i would strongly recommend you to do the same.

I do enjoy pugging too, but not that kind of pug you described.


If you get into such a pug, speak up. You are the cleric, you are expected to heal people during fights.
Not that it's your job or your final duty, but people expect it from the party cleric and
you're good at it, so you can aswell use some of your SP to prevent them from dying.

But if they don't wait for you (i know how slow clerics can be) they can't expect you to do anything.

Tell them exactly that: "Wait for me or you might die horribly, as i couldn't even heal you if i wanted to, clerics are much slower than monk/ranger/barb splashes!"


If they do so, fine, seems they can at least read/listen.

If not, leave them, you won't have any fun running with them and all they'd do would
be complaining.

Clerics/FvS are welcome in almost every PUG, so you won't have trouble finding a decent one.

[Aranticus]

That's great. I hoped you strive to keep helping people.

I suggest you read the re-written version of your post by Daniel (sp?). If you could learn to be 1/2 that diplomatic and incorporate 1/2 the empathy of that post in your 'teachings', you would be even more helpful to new players.

/thumbs up

i'm not teaching anyone anything here. read the title ;)

[Aranticus]

+1 for preachin' the truth brotherman

PS What's your secret? I'm generally hated for this type of thing. hmmm...Maybe if I said I wasn't a native English speak too...I am from Texas afterall :eek::cool:

there is no secret. i post honestly without the winny the poohs or my little ponys (not to be confused with little pwnys) or kent and barbie

one could laugh at the world better if it didnt mix tender kindness with its brutality - DH Lawrence

[MeliCat]

So I guess you buying me that drink at the Lobster is now out of the question? :)

Not while you're insulting people I like and respect, no.

[sephiroth1084]

/snip bunch of stuff about a poor group following a blind invite
I fail to see how your example was at all relevant to this discussion. Blind invites are an entirely different matter than PUGing, and most players I know (of) have figured out that you should generally auto-decline blind invites from anyone you don't know. As for me, if I don't know the person, I ask whether I should, or if they know me, and when they inevitably say no, I decline their request.

Put up an LFM, join an LFM or group with people in your guild or on your friends list, and your experiences will almost assuredly be better.

And as for the "Aranticusesque 'advice,'" some noob who thinks too highly of himself *****ing at you for not keeping up with him is a pretty far cry from what Aranticus posted. A vet should know his limitations and capabilities, and if he exceeds them and gets into trouble, either can get himself out, or will (often laughing) accept responsibility for being a putz.

/fail

[lazylaz]

I don't know if he was or not. He said something to that effect, but who knows.


I get blind invited constantly - I'm sure it's b/c of my cleric - to the point I have to turn off my invite option to be able to solo or do errands in Stormreach.


At this point, the blind invite is the norm for me. Every PUG has been fair to great and almost always fun. I've only been in one group so far that had a jack @ss like that monk, but after he left the rest of the group reformed and I had the best PUG experience to date.


It's kind of creepy how no one talks to each other. Sometimes I feel like I'm playing with NPCs. But I'm getting used to it.

I expect it is because you're a cleric though I've had one of my sorcs get blind invited a few times (rejected!). You should make gimp ones like me and nobody will want you. Gives you a lot of peace. :)

But accepting blind invites can lead to all sorts of trouble like you've had so really you might as well ignore the invites. Or ask them what they're doing first before accepting. And how they're doing it.

[xberto]

the divide between the vet (i'm not referring to the pseudo vets who think their 2 shoud runs qualify them to be an authority) and the newbie is widening and its horrifying how big this divide is at present. a lot of the misunderstanding stems from both misconception and miscommunication. this thread maybe ugly, i may get neg repped but it has to be said. if you are a new player and at the end of this post you think "boy this aranticus <insert insult> is an elitist" then you are realising something and that is the truth. the truth is honest and brutal, i'm not going to pretend that i'm some politician and be PC about it here. as to the vets, chip in with your own perceptions as well so that the new players may know what its really like out there


Well i'm a vet and my perception is inline with Postumus statement.....


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

I'm wouldnt necessarily debate anything the OP said, however, his little prelude kind of made me laugh when he described the divide between vet and newbie as "horrifying" and the truth is "honest and brutal". Nothing about this game is that serious to be horrifying.

Big deal, so we have new players and vet players, so what!. Yes everyone has their own expectations of fun, this is nothing new. Growth means new people are coming in. Leveling my TR today I had to explain to a guy how to find Stormcleave and he had only been a VIP player for 4 days. Thats really cool the game is growing and we have all this new content and now finally some new Races in October. We owe it all to the new players! I personally like the influx of people since the DDO went f2p. Its way better now to log on and have 20 lfms to choose from rather than the last year when you might have 5 or 6 on a busy night.
Now the raids and epic, yea somtimes you get some newer people might make some mistakes but who knows, they might be leading the group next month. For that reason, I think everyone deserves some time to master the game.

[NaturalHazard]

I think a lot has to do with attitude, if you have a good attitude and can take advice and listen to others it helps when your new and starting out. Also not thinking you know it all because you got to level 10. When i first started I guess i was lucky I had some players who had been playing longer than me, not all of them where vets, take me under their wing and show me the ropes, how to do some quests ect. And my guild helped a lot as well.

I was also lucky to play with a group of people who all started out in korthos at the same time and there was enough of us to form our own party and stumble through quests without frustrating others, and we would share what we learnt from other more experianced players with each other.

Now my first toon is level 20 im leveling up my alts (when i get tired of grinding for gear for him) and come accross newer players like elf/drow rangers with 6 con, pure wizards with 16 int at level 10 with an Int item ect. Who can make what should be an easy quest really challeging.

Sometimes I really feel like rage quiting but i do my best to get the party through the quest while at the same time trying to give out what basic advice I can with my limmited experiance. Its when they just dismiss what I have to say out of hand,stuff like "what does he know? Im level 8 now 6 con is fine, ect. This is what really annoys me the most sometimes. And I often say to come online to the forums ect to get ideas for builds and to use the wiki.

[Minttunator]

Great post, OP, thanks! :)

Reading the discussion here, it occurs to me that there are two kinds of experienced players in any game and new players would do well to distinguish between the two;

Those that nurture and help newbs whenever they can and offer advice, even if they are not always kissy kissy about it - the OP fits squarely into this category. Then there's the other kind whose help and advice is limited to 'L2P, noob'. There are surprisingly few of those in DDO, though, which is probably why some might not realize how good we have it here. The few who've called the OP arrogant should perhaps take a look at the message boards of that other major MMO (the name of which I shall not utter here) for perspective.

There also seem to be two kinds of new players - those that seek to learn and get better at the game, because they find it fun to acquire new skills and accomplish things, even in a video game. I would like to count my humble self among these. :o Then there are those, who are destined to remain noobs forever. These are the players who think having 100% fort or more than 8 starting CON is 'badwrongfun' because everyone else does so, and they try to stick it to the man by being different just for rebellion's sake.

Advice is not always bad, even if it's harshly worded (which the OP, in my opinion, was decidedly not) - experienced players often speak from, well, experience. Going your own way and making all the painful mistakes might be fun for a while, but you lose the right to complain when the 'vets' outlined by the OP don't invite you to their groups because you have 0% fort and 200HP at level 20. ;)

[NaturalHazard]

minnutator

+1 for saying what i wanted to say so much better. :)

[NeutronStar]

PUBLIC NOTICE!!!


Aranticus' OP is right.

Anyone who disagrees with it is wrong.


PUBLIC NOTICE!!!

[noinfo]

That's a lot of hot air OP.
There are plenty of us "vets" that still play to have fun and "stop and smell the roses".
Your post offered some advice but I feel it was more doom than encouraging words.
To quote a recent EPIC run:
Other Guy (#6 spot): "YOU MUST HAVE THE PROPER GEAR TO COMPLETE EPIC QUESTS OR DONT BOTHER.
GAME: QUEST COMPLETE
ME: "Well none of us have the "proper" gear and we just completed the quest, so what does that mean?"
So what you are purporting as some sort of "truth", that to have fun one must:

Stack numbers
Know what your doing or don't bother
Have the "proper" gear


All of the above are unneccesary to fully enjoy this game.

Once again your opinion is wrong. :rolleyes:

Perhaps you need to re-read the OP. There is nothing wrong with your opinion of fun, but be aware that many other "Vets" have a very different opinion of fun as can be generally reflected by support of the OP. Infact you own post reflects the divide, you were in a group with noone with the right gear and it appears you all had a good time. Great.
Now if one of you were in a group with more powergamers it would likely to have been far less fun for you and them as they would have been wondering if you were actually going to kill anything and why you were there in the first place, they would probably be slightly frustrated at wasting the space, not for fear of not completing but for the fact that they want to complete faster and waste fewer resources.

This is EXACTLY the point of the OP. People have different values of what they consider fun.

[Visty]

In theory this is great advice. In practice, my experience with PUGs has been the following:


I get a blind invitation to a party from someone I don't know.


I like PUGs so I accept.


We start the quest and it is a NON-STOP sprint to the finish. If I didn't have +10% speed boots, I would never be able to keep up with people. If I stop to type anything anywhere other than at a shrine, I'm spending the rest of the time trying to catch up.


No one is on mike. No one types anything except the occasional "should we do objective X or objective Y first?". No instructions. No advice. Nothing.


The longest exchange I've ever had with another player was when a 'vet' player, the leader, thought his monk was the second coming of Jason Bourne and ran off into the dungeon by himself. He got cornered by kobolds and began yelling at me to come find him and heal him.



And so on, and so forth.


We did get a brief Aranticusesque lecture about how "none of you know what you're doing!" right before he rage quit.


Not sure if that counts as advice.

noobs cant give good advice yet you think its the same as aranticus did

We owe it all to the new players!

no

[Stitch78]

I get a blind invitation to a party from someone I don't know.


I like PUGs so I accept.



Humbly, this is strike one and two. Some of the best advice a new player can get is that blind invites are not cool, not polite and not usually going to lead to a fun time. The only time I accept a blind invite is to tell the other members of the party, "Hey, leader just blind invited me. Good luck." And I do that because if I join a LFM and the last one or two people join and say they were blind invited, I know to drop. No need to go any further - I'm sure there are a ton of posts on blind invites you could search for and read about.

If you have a cleric, you ESPECIALLY shouldn't need to accept blinds, because there is usually at least two or three parties that would love to have you if you apply.

[*Edit: I just re-read this and it sounds kinda aggressive to Postumus. That wasn't the intent, as I think I understand the points he is trying to convey in this post. But blind invites (to a party or a guild) are the devil.]

[donnala]

This morning I re-read this whole thread again. It seems to me this Community is very divided. There is a 'old school' concept of how to play and a another concept of how to play. [I could be wrong though.]

There is no question that people seem to want to help people who are new like me. It also seems that if the new player does not play as they are taught then there is a conflict. I am not sure but there might be many ways to play and none are really incorrect.

In real life we start to learn a little bit at a time and as we understand what we are learning more is given to us to learn. The thing is when the teacher is trying to teach us to draw in between the lines and a young child brings his drawing to the teacher, all smiles and happy, thinking they did a great job, should the teacher say it is bad because it was not drawn in the lines despite how well it was done?

For me as a new player trying to find a patient person to teach me how to do something is difficult. I ask questions in main chat and mostly get ignored. For example: Can someone teach me how to swim? This is a basic concept for many but I am struggling with it.

Back to the child who drew the pretty picture. If the teacher criticizes him he will say school stinks. If he is told what a great job he did, school will seem fun.

There is a great deal to learn here and it has to be fun or people will not bother. As for me, I think the game is pretty so I enjoy spending time exploring. I am in no rush to get a quest done. So once I clear a room I do explore unless it is a timed quest of course. I think it would be most difficult to find others who would play as I do so I am trying to solo. This way I will not ruin anyone's fun and I can enjoy it also.

The only issue with this is I will not make any friends and that saddens me. It no longer is a multi-player game at that point. It becomes a fear of chatting with others because you never know who is nice and who will say announce to the DDO world that I am a complete idiot.

All I can say is my picture is pretty and I worked hard on it.

Donnala

[Crann]

Great post OP, and much needed, judging from some of the reactions.

Your dissenters are making your points more clear than your intitial post did :)

It isn't one game with the same goals and enjoyment for all. Each gets something different out of it, respect that, and you will find your own enjoyment much greater.

And as someone else said, for what it's worth, welcome back.

I owe you, and many other Vets here who have taken their own time to author guides, and answer questions, a great deal of the enjoyment I receive from playing this game.

Anyone put off by the attitude of the OP, coming off as elitist, may want to re-consider their own definition of elitism.

[NaturalHazard]

PUBLIC NOTICE!!!


Aranticus' OP is right.

Anyone who disagrees with it is wrong.


PUBLIC NOTICE!!!

I generally agree with aranticus's OP, but I wouldnt say that anyone who disagrees with it is wrong, its a big post im sure there would be parts of it some people might be in disagreement with. One of the most important things is *how* they state why they disagree with it.

[Crann]

All I can say is my picture is pretty and I worked hard on it.

Donnala

If you think your picture is pretty, and you are happy with it, then that is all that is really important.

If you care what everyone else thinks about it....and are going to be upset if there is someone that thinks its ugly, then you are going to have problems.

There is no right way, and wrong way to play this game when you are playing for your own enjoyment, and are playing with others who feel the same way.

There are, however, better ways and worse way to go about things.

[Steiner-Davion]

That's a lot of hot air OP.

There are plenty of us "vets" that still play to have fun and "stop and smell the roses".

Your post offered some advice but I feel it was more doom than encouraging words.

To quote a recent EPIC run:

Other Guy (#6 spot): "YOU MUST HAVE THE PROPER GEAR TO COMPLETE EPIC QUESTS OR DONT BOTHER.

GAME: QUEST COMPLETE

ME: "Well none of us have the "proper" gear and we just completed the quest, so what does that mean?"


So what you are purporting as some sort of "truth", that to have fun one must:


Stack numbers
Know what your doing or don't bother
Have the "proper" gear



All of the above are unneccesary to fully enjoy this game.

Once again your opinion is wrong. :rolleyes:

How did you get that from the OP? It was pretty clear that the OP was not advocating this in any way, shape or form. His whole section on Perspective blows your comment right out of the water.

[Steiner-Davion]

I don't think that, but when you phrase statements like this:


Originally Posted by Aranticus
take negative feedback positively. it helps a person grow.


You conveniently snipped that comment right of of context, giving it an entirely different meaning. His example right after that, puts a whole different light on those 9 words.

Sure any small part of anything anyone one says can be taken to mean just about anything the listener/reader wants it to mean, but that is only true for the small section of the comment. The true meaning of most comments is not found until it is taken as part of the whole, and not as the whole.

[Steiner-Davion]

In theory this is great advice. In practice, my experience with PUGs has been the following:


I get a blind invitation to a party from someone I don't know.


I like PUGs so I accept.


We start the quest and it is a NON-STOP sprint to the finish. If I didn't have +10% speed boots, I would never be able to keep up with people. If I stop to type anything anywhere other than at a shrine, I'm spending the rest of the time trying to catch up.


No one is on mike. No one types anything except the occasional "should we do objective X or objective Y first?". No instructions. No advice. Nothing.



I couldn't agree more with Lazylaz.

Rule #4 (Rules 1 -3 refer to Fight Club)
Never accept blind invites form people youy don't know.

Corollary to Rule #4: People who blind invite strangers are generally spamming the blind invites to anybody and anyone that they can. Rule #4 is founded upon Mutual Respect and Consideration. Many players of DDO, especially long term players) view both Blind Party Invites and Blind Guild Invites to be rude, obnoxious and/or inconsiderate. Especially if you have an LFM up. If we wanted to join your group we would have hit up the LFM panel and click the join party button. It is really a matter of common curtesy.

[Steiner-Davion]

I get blind invited constantly - I'm sure it's b/c of my cleric - to the point I have to turn off my invite option to be able to solo or do errands in Stormreach.


Yeap, it is because you are a Cleric, and a segment of the player base are still stuck upon the Notion that you have to have (in your case a Cleric, in others it is an Arcane or a Rogue) to do the quest. That is where the shortages of good clerics comes form, they are all hiding, or only run with guildies and friends. Additionally, the fact that most, if not all quests, can be done without a "pure cleric" healerbot, is why some "vets" post "BYOH" or "Be Self-sufficient."

I know I got bored playing my Cleric in Pugs because, for the last four and a half years, PUGs expect that my Cleric use my Blue Bar to heal them, even when I try to explain to them in simple words that I can do so much more. My Bard, one of the least healing able of the healing classes can heal just as well as a Pure Cleric or heal specced Favored Soul (with enough money for scrolls and wands) in any quest, with the exception maybe of Raid Boss fights.

[Steiner-Davion]

if this in fact a serious question I'll give it a go.


example: Can someone teach me how to swim? This is a basic concept for many but I am struggling with it.

Note: trying to write this with a little bit of humor

Fun Answer:
1) Jump in water
2) Don't sink
3) make yourself as bouyant as possible. It helps if you can create as much surface area between your body and the water.
4) Move your arms and legs through the water to propell yourself

DDO Answer:
1) Enter the Water by whatever means are required
2) I steer my character in the 2D plane he/she is in (based upon the direction he/she is facing) using the standard WASD keys.
3) I enter mouse look mode, by pressing and holding the left mouse button down to change the direction I am facing and thus moving in. (Mouse movements are like flying a plane). Note: the left click and hold is based upon a Rgiht-Click to attack mouse setup option.
4) Space Bar always brings you up towards the surface.

[Steiner-Davion]

I wonder what some people's reactions to the OP would have been if he simply stated something along the lines of:



Perspective:
There are many ways to play this game, not just yours. Think about how your "chosen playstyle is affecting the enjoyment of the others you are playing with.

OR

People find different things fun. Their idea of fun might not be the same as yours.

In otherwords his main point, but without the examples. I seems to me that some people are so wrapped up in the examples, that they miss the point, just like the old saying goes: " Miss the forest, for the trees" or something like that...

[stainer]

Hi.

I came in with the F2P crowd. I suppose that makes me a new player, in the grand scheme of things.

It seems to me that the message central to Aranticus' OP was that there's a significant body of players to whom optimal play is an important part of enjoying the game. It strikes me as quite likely that there is going to be a significant body of new players who also subscribe to this.



I came in with F2P also. Aranticus spent 30 mins or so with me helping me learn how to play my monk efficiently. He improved my game play 50%. We then did the easter egg hunt and he made fun of me for being so slow. :p

There are a few players that, if you don't get defensive, will improve your game more than you could imagine. Aranticus is one of those players.

[DANTEIL]

In otherwords his main point, but left out the examples. I seems to me that some people are so wrapped up in the examples, that they miss the point, just like the old saying goes: " Miss the forest, for the trees" or something like that...

While true, I think that his point was more specific than that. At least what I took away from it was that it was an attempt to help newer players understand the mindset and perspective of ~powergamers~, who view the game and the "fun" of the game in a different way from how other people might view the game, and how this might cause clashes when grouped together. The tone may have been......a bit condescending but the good intent was there.

[Zeruell]

There are a few players that, if you don't get defensive, will improve your game more than you could imagine. Aranticus is one of those players.

This really is the heart of the matter: you can always* improve, and this is very seldom a bad thing -- whether you enjoy an even-paced dungeon crawl or a completion at break-neck speeds.

Criticism can come from anywhere, from anyone, and in any form. It pays to be receptive to it.

*: There are ceilings, but one generally only "hits" them asymptotically.

[donnala]

if this in fact a serious question I'll give it a go.



Note: trying to write this with a little bit of humor

Fun Answer:
1) Jump in water
2) Don't sink
3) make yourself as bouyant as possible. It helps if you can create as much surface area between your body and the water.
4) Move your arms and legs through the water to propell yourself

DDO Answer:
1) Enter the Water by whatever means are required
2) I steer my character in the 2D plane he/she is in (based upon the direction he/she is facing) using the standard WASD keys.
3) I enter mouse look mode, by pressing and holding the left mouse button down to change the direction I am facing and thus moving in. (Mouse movements are like flying a plane). Note: the left click and hold is based upon a Rgiht-Click to attack mouse setup option.
4) Space Bar always brings you up towards the surface.

Yes this was a serious question. Thank you for answering.

[GreatOwl]

*: There are ceilings, but one generally only "hits" them asymptotically.
OMG this is too funny! If I could I would +rep you for that alone; I'm so gonna steal that line :D

[Ashnon]

All this talk makes me, a brand new player, shy away from doing quests with anyone. I am sure I could not keep up with the experienced players.

I feel the same way. It's hard to group with people if you feel like you may let them down accidentally. Main reason I mostly soloed all the way to 20. The problem is, my own insecurities hurt my gameplay. Am I a decent player even though I soloed? Maybe...but what do I have to gauge it against. Swallow your pride and group, f**k up, dust yourself off and become better for it. I wish I had.

[Malignanttoe]

Even if the OP is a little insulting towards newbies (I'm a newbie, but no worries) it's still good to be aware of these perspectives and expectations in case you plan on grouping with other people who you're not used to, or who aren't used to you.

[Spoprockel]

To anyone who insists that playing "for fun" is most important:


I am too F2P, a casual player who can only play a few hours a week. When i play i seek perfection.
That doesn't mean perfect twink gear on my toon or every toon in the party.
It doesn't mean no death, the perfect spell selection on arcane and divine casters.
It doesn't mean no mistakes made by anyone.
It means that everyone should try to do his best. And seek advice to get better at it.


Of course, people make mistakes! Everyone can make mistakes, we're all human after all.

It takes time to learn how to play a game.

I too learned from my mistakes, and every fail on my side helps me to improve.

And i'm having tons of fun while i'm improving my gameplay.


The problem is when people make the same mistakes over and over again.
When they don't listen if you tell them how they could improve.
When they don't learn.
At other peoples expense.


It may be fun for you to not care about gear or potions on your character. Saves plat, doesn't it?
It may be fun for you to charge first into fights, aggro everything. With 6 con and 0% fort.
It may be fun for you to play the game "your way" and don't care about anyone else in the party.


But guess who doesn't have fun? All those other people who quest with you.

The healer won't be amused by you drawing aggro, catching curses and deseases and being unable to deal with it.

The other people who run with you won't be amused if you die to an encounter that could easily be handled with the right tactics.
It's only -10%XP, but it still hurts if it's lost in a most unneccessary, silly way.



And don't tell me i don't have to run with you!

This is an mmorpg after all, and there are no labels attached to all players, stating "I'm trying" or "12 year old sociopath on sugar overdose".


If you write about "having fun" "your way" take a minute and consider if "your way" of "having fun" may impede other peoples fun.


If you don't care about other people go play a singleplayer RPG.

[Zlingerdark]

First off, I have nothing against Aranticus, or any other knowledgeable vet out there. In fact, I have done a ton of research here on these forums, and often sought the advice on builds by Aranticus and others. In the end I end up making my own variations based on what I have learned.

Being of the new player category myself, I have to disagree on many assumptions on perceptions of new players versus old players.

First and foremost, I think where things go south is when a "helpful" vet thinks they are helping a newb by giving them advice when they never asked for it. If they did, then by all means give them what they asked for. Otherwise, keep your thoughts to yourself. Nobody really likes unsolicited advice.

Second, "Know your way", "Zerg", "Have voice/sound" and other various comments in LFMs actually deter any newbie from joining those groups. The whole gist of that is if you are new we do not want you. How's that for a welcoming party for new players? And if you do get a newb joining that group, most likely he is a n00b disguised in newbie clothes.

Third, "be humble". Well, I'll not speak for others, but I am nothing but humble and gracious when someone helps me learn an aspect of the game I wasn't aware of, or simply hadn't figured it out on my own. The problem here is the fact that those that "know" expect those that "don't" to know right away what "they" know. Exactly how am I going to know something as well as someone else if I never actually DONE it?

When people say have a heavy fort by 11, all I really feel is a warm breeze blowing my way. Okay? Where does one acquire such an item? Can it be gotten via a quest reward? Turn in of collectibles? Do you really think for a second a new player at level 11 is going to know all that right out of the box? You say "do your research on the forums", but the problem there isn't that the knowledge is not available, it is not understood. It is not clear why that is so important to a vet. Yet.

Not singling out Aranticus here, but the line that list the various weapon properties that everybody must have is indicative of what I am talking about. Why? When do I need them? Who do I use them against? You see what I am getting at here? Just saying you need 400+ hp doesn't really make me understand WHY I need it. I have not yet experienced what you've experienced. I do not yet understand. I will however tuck that bit of knowledge away and keep it in mind of course, based on YOUR expertise and knowledge. And when my experience leads me to the same conclusions that your advice was, well then I now UNDERSTAND!

Fourth "Builds". Well, I just had a little discussion going on my guild's forum relating to this. While min-maxing is probably everybody's ultimate goal with at least ONE character, if not all. Who really wants to intentionally gimp their builds? Well except for those having fun with GIMPs. I have a GIMP too. Gotta say I learned more from that build than most of my others! LOL!

But anyways, what I have learned is that even a gimped build can survive, and have a blast in this game. So really does it matter that your build has every point in it most "perfect" spot, every enhancement just so? Do you really have to have all the uber gear at the moment you are actually able to equip it?

Somehow, I think not. Does it make the going easier and more survivable? Sure it does!

The problem is that most older players have all the gear and plat already, and can easily twink their toons all along the way. I ask, where is the challenge in that? And yet you expect new players who have neither the plat, nor the gear to twink with to survive a quest as well as one who does?

I do not buy pots, I smash barrel after barrel collecting them. I have what I find, and if I use them up faster than I find them, guess what? I guess I am not so self-sufficient. I cannot afford to buy stacks of heal pots, and all else I am "suppose" to have. But never fear, I am quite resourceful and rarely am I out of those necessary pots, but I also find myself never using them either. Maybe I haven't been challenged enough yet...

I guess I got a bit long winded there... but I truly wish that this old versus new mentality just went away. If you are having fun playing the game the way YOU want to play, play it that way. Just don't expect everybody else to have the same play style, goals and knowledge as you do.

Please do not pick apart my post trying to answer all my rhetorical questions. They were exactly that, and not intended to be answered here.

[Crann]

If you are having fun playing the game the way YOU want to play, play it that way. Just don't expect everybody else to have the same play style, goals and knowledge as you do.

I think that's what the OP's point was. If he has a zerg, BYOH, fast run listed....he is playing his own way, and new players are not able to play the way he is in those groups. He's not abandoning new players, as evident by all the guides...and testimonials from the new players he has helped. He's just pointing out that not all people are looking for the same thing all the time.

P.S. How yah been?

[Chai]

I agree with what you stated, except for this...





min-maxing is not maxing an ability at the expense of others. min-maxing is about the maxing of an important attribute while suppressing those that are not utilised. a balanced fighter in they eyes of a new player could be one with a decent dps, nice ac, good saves all combined together. for a min-maxer, its totally different. they will take the environment into consideration and plan accordingly




Maxing of an important attribute while suppressing those that are not utilised is a euphamism for maxing an ability at the expense of others. It is the same thing. The player knows what they want to do and they sacrifice (dump) some stats and skills to allow them to pay for others and make them really high numbers.

In an MMO like DDO this works, primarily due to metagaming (take the environment into consideration and plan accordingly), but it doesnt work in PnP unless your DM is also an optimiser (euphamism for min maxer). I dont allow metagaming, by designing my own adventures. If you roll up a 18 str 15 dex 16 con fighter, likely the first time you need to roll a will save, you will experience character death if you dumped wis to 8. In DDO, this issue is solved by knowing the encounter and wearing an item that gives you immunity to what the mobs will use (running around wiz king with a reavers ring), buffing for immunity (FOM pls, k thx), or building for immunity (warforged, paladin, monk)

[Zlingerdark]

I think that's what the OP's point was. If he has a zerg, BYOH, fast run listed....he is playing his own way, and new players are not able to play the way he is in those groups. He's not abandoning new players, as evident by all the guides...and testimonials from the new players he has helped. He's just pointing out that not all people are looking for the same thing all the time.

P.S. How yah been?

Hey Crann! Been busy! But I hope to make it this Saturday! Sorry for the long hiatus.

And sorry for the slight thread derail! <flee>

[Aspenor]

In an MMO like DDO this works, primarily due to metagaming (take the environment into consideration and plan accordingly), but it doesnt work in PnP unless your DM is also an optimiser (euphamism for min maxer). I dont allow metagaming, by designing my own adventures. If you roll up a 18 str 15 dex 16 con fighter, likely the first time you need to roll a will save, you will experience character death if you dumped wis to 8. In DDO, this issue is solved by knowing the encounter and wearing an item that gives you immunity to what the mobs will use (running around wiz king with a reavers ring), buffing for immunity (FOM pls, k thx), or building for immunity (warforged, paladin, monk)

It works quite well in PnP, possibly better than in DDO, no matter whether the DM is an optimizer or not.

Of course, if you make an 18 str 15 dex 16 con fighter in PnP, you will suck just because you chose "fighter" as your class, not because of your stats. So, yes, you may fail your will save. However, it is important to note that your enemy will pay for it because they didn't target your allied wizard instead. If it happened to be an AoE that caught the wizard as well, a fighter falling to the spell is only a byproduct as the spell was intended to neutralize the wizard. The fact that it got the fighter too is a mere convenience to the enemy.

If the enemy targeted the fighter and not the wizard, it has lost the fight due to a poor decision and the fighter will most likely live to tell the tale.

[sisterjinx]

Ok I have one piece of advice/opinion to add to this.

If you join ANYONE's LFM then the rule of thumb is follow the lead of the leader. If they want a "group zerg" it will be obvious. If they want "team play" it will be obvious. If they want "flower sniffing" it will be obvious. If they want to split up and zerg it separately and quickly it will be obvious. (etc...)

If you Join someone else's LFM then give them the respect of doing it THEIR way. If you want to do it YOUR way then create your own LFM or solo it.

*edit - this applies to ALL types of players new, old, or in between.

[Lyssie]

I *play* because it takes me away from the bad day at work, or the laundry and endless dishes. lol. But I also read for fun. Books. I hate to join anyone that has to have everything just soooo perfect. So I die, ooops, SORRY! It's a TOON for Pete's sake! I'm learning! Bear with me!

Third, "be humble". Well, I'll not speak for others, but I am nothing but humble and gracious when someone helps me learn an aspect of the game I wasn't aware of, or simply hadn't figured it out on my own. The problem here is the fact that those that "know" expect those that "don't" to know right away what "they" know. Exactly how am I going to know something as well as someone else if I never actually DONE it?

When people say have a heavy fort by 11, all I really feel is a warm breeze blowing my way. Okay? Where does one acquire such an item? Can it be gotten via a quest reward? Turn in of collectibles? Do you really think for a second a new player at level 11 is going to know all that right out of the box? You say "do your research on the forums", but the problem there isn't that the knowledge is not available, it is not understood. It is not clear why that is so important to a vet. Yet.

Not singling out Aranticus here, but the line that list the various weapon properties that everybody must have is indicative of what I am talking about. Why? When do I need them? Who do I use them against? You see what I am getting at here? Just saying you need 400+ hp doesn't really make me understand WHY I need it. I have not yet experienced what you've experienced. I do not yet understand. I will however tuck that bit of knowledge away and keep it in mind of course, based on YOUR expertise and knowledge. And when my experience leads me to the same conclusions that your advice was, well then I now UNDERSTAND!

I can soooooooo relate!!! My highest toon is lvl 14, but I'm nowhere near "knowing" as much as I'd like to. WHY? Cause sometimes my internet goes up and down (I live in the boonies) & I try not to group with peeps I dunno cause sometimes in the middle of the quest (or start, or end) my lag starts rising to the moon, and I have to pause. It may be for a few seconds, or a minute, but most people aren't willing to wait, and I had to find this out the hard way. So just by that happening, and a few groups that got mad when I died and messed up the optionals, my chances of learning by playing with groups of more than my bf and another friend are knocked way down. And I'm not griping about people not wanting to wait, I TOTALLY understand!!! Heck, if I had it my way I wouldn't even BE lagging, lol!

And by reading THIS entire thread, I just now learned why it's good to have fort period, be it light OR heavy. I read A LOT on here, but as much as I have read, some I still don't understand. I take notes. I write down tons of info. But sometimes I get sooo overwelmed by all the advice.


The problem is that most older players have all the gear and plat already, and can easily twink their toons all along the way. I ask, where is the challenge in that? And yet you expect new players who have neither the plat, nor the gear to twink with to survive a quest as well as one who does?

I do not buy pots, I smash barrel after barrel collecting them. I have what I find, and if I use them up faster than I find them, guess what? I guess I am not so self-sufficient. I cannot afford to buy stacks of heal pots, and all else I am "suppose" to have. But never fear, I am quite resourceful and rarely am I out of those necessary pots, but I also find myself never using them either. Maybe I haven't been challenged enough yet....

I also smash, smash, smash. And I am P2P. It's cause I want to. (What goody is under THAT breakable?) Oh yeah- plus I like to break stuff, lol!

So all in all, I love this game. But that's all it is to me. I love to PLAY. I make mistakes. I'm not gonna quit just cause other people have a diff opinion on how it should or shouldn't be played. That's the fun of forums, and this type of game. If you are asking questions, and I KNOW the answer for sure, I'll tell you. If I don't know for sure, I will also be awaiting an answer from someone who DOES know, and is willing to give the answer.

[Steiner-Davion]

Yes this was a serious question. Thank you for answering.

Ok, since this was a serious question, I'm dying to know which type of swimming you were referring to? :D

[Steiner-Davion]

The problem is when people make the same mistakes over and over again.
When they don't listen if you tell them how they could improve.
When they don't learn.
At other peoples expense.


It may be fun for you to not care about gear or potions on your character. Saves plat, doesn't it?
It may be fun for you to charge first into fights, aggro everything. With 6 con and 0% fort.
It may be fun for you to play the game "your way" and don't care about anyone else in the party.


But guess who doesn't have fun? All those other people who quest with you.

The healer won't be amused by you drawing aggro, catching curses and deseases and being unable to deal with it.

.
.
.

And don't tell me i don't have to run with you!

This is an mmorpg after all, and there are no labels attached to all players, stating "I'm trying" or "12 year old sociopath on sugar overdose".

If you write about "having fun" "your way" take a minute and consider if "your way" of "having fun" may impede other peoples fun.

If you don't care about other people go play a singleplayer RPG.
/QFT
+1 Rep, I absolutely loved the part about the lack of signs stating: "I'm trying" or "12 year old sociopath on sugar overdose"

But the first part of is absolutely true, and one of my biggest pet peeves, and I know it irks a lot of other players as well, both new and old. It is just the lack of common courtesy that some players, again both new and old, show towards other players in the game, especially in quest.

[voodoogroves]

To anyone who insists that playing "for fun" is most important:


I am too F2P, a casual player who can only play a few hours a week. When i play i seek perfection.
That doesn't mean perfect twink gear on my toon or every toon in the party.
It doesn't mean no death, the perfect spell selection on arcane and divine casters.
It doesn't mean no mistakes made by anyone.
It means that everyone should try to do his best. And seek advice to get better at it.


Of course, people make mistakes! Everyone can make mistakes, we're all human after all.

It takes time to learn how to play a game.

I too learned from my mistakes, and every fail on my side helps me to improve.

And i'm having tons of fun while i'm improving my gameplay.


The problem is when people make the same mistakes over and over again.
When they don't listen if you tell them how they could improve.
When they don't learn.
At other peoples expense.


It may be fun for you to not care about gear or potions on your character. Saves plat, doesn't it?
It may be fun for you to charge first into fights, aggro everything. With 6 con and 0% fort.
It may be fun for you to play the game "your way" and don't care about anyone else in the party.


But guess who doesn't have fun? All those other people who quest with you.

The healer won't be amused by you drawing aggro, catching curses and deseases and being unable to deal with it.

The other people who run with you won't be amused if you die to an encounter that could easily be handled with the right tactics.
It's only -10%XP, but it still hurts if it's lost in a most unneccessary, silly way.



And don't tell me i don't have to run with you!

This is an mmorpg after all, and there are no labels attached to all players, stating "I'm trying" or "12 year old sociopath on sugar overdose".


If you write about "having fun" "your way" take a minute and consider if "your way" of "having fun" may impede other peoples fun.


If you don't care about other people go play a singleplayer RPG.

And the door does swing both ways. Don't join a PUG if the way you play you know is not going to be fun for everyone else.

I respect everyone's rights to play however teh hell they want ... as long as they keep others in mind too.

[TigrisMorte]

...
5. PnP
ditch whatever you learn in PnP. DDO is a whole new world...
This really depends on the quality of the DM.
Just a few things I feel transfer really, really well from original AD&D (not this new dang blasted excuse those kids have made. Now get off my lawn!).

Casting spells only takes you so far. What do you do when the spells you had prepared are not fit for the circumstances you find your self in?

Constitution is not just for fighters. The low level Stirge flock is going to make sure your max Intelligence wizard does not make it to 3rd.

And, the biggie, you only have so many spells possible at any given time and many of them took far longer to cast than for the bad guy to hit you. (in DDO limited SP in AD&D memorized spells cast exactly once. Initiative had nothing to do with taking responsibility. ) Better have some combat plan 'cause your not casting that lightning bolt when A: you have already cast it or B: the lizard man is within melee range.

So you got 70 strength and Deities and Demigods only puts Thor at 25. It is called Monty hall. Essentially DDO is just a DM that has let the magic economy get out of control.
Therefore the monsters must have their HP bumped up, and the limits inherent in a D20 have made real AC meaningless in almost all cases.
Nothing new here.

In closing, thank you for all the great guides and articles. I really mean that I have used a great deal of what you have written. But don't fall into the trap of thinking "your new thing" is not at least some what similar to something we geezers have seen before.

Oh, and it is "playing more than 30 years", just FYI. (see we even invented "net speak" when net was a volleyball term.):p

[Folonius]

epic or elite?

hmmm... that could be an amusing challenge to run epic wizking without full fort... but as PopeJual mentioned nannybots (the way i epic on my cleric for the most part) don't really need it.


Mass Heals do damage as well as heal in that quest. My FvS has a starting str of 6 (12 with a +6) and doesn't do much damage. I've been collecting little hammers that are holy greater banes that do some damage, but don't have an undead one yet. Even if I did, I think my mass heal would still do more damage than a holy greater undead bane.

[donnala]

Ok, since this was a serious question, I'm dying to know which type of swimming you were referring to? :D

I was referring to in game swimming. Now I can complete a quest hopefully without drowning.

This proves my point though: Who wants to play with a new player who cannot even swim yet? It is embarrassing and scary to think of playing with the seasoned players who know how to play.

Then again I might ask how it is best to play with a new player so that it does not feel like a demeaning experience that will be posted here on the forums or reported to all the veteran players?

Until I am certain I can run with others maybe it is best I stay solo.

Signed Donnala "The new player who wants to have fun and make friends but cannot because I am certainly not good enough."

At least this thread makes me feel that way.

[Zippo]

We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


Everyone runs into imbeciles and jack arses - there were a couple morons on Argo last night using the advice channel to deliver insults and physical threats, but I ID them, ignore them and move on. Continuing to lament the current state of things won't change your game experience any. I'd bet my bottom dollar that even if any of the players you describe read these forums, they sure aren't going to change b/c you disapprove of their game play.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.

You obviously missed the point of the OP, just to point pout one pertinent counterpoint to your argument from the OP


this is a wrong perception. they are having fun, in their own way.

And yes they are right to be able to say back in my day because back in our day things were MUCH different. A lot of us like it more that way as opposed to what it is now, so do not blast them for reminiscing about what was while standing on your soapbox telling them to "get over it".

[krud]

My expectations are plainly summarized in my sig

[MeliCat]

Mass Heals do damage as well as heal in that quest. My FvS has a starting str of 6 (12 with a +6) and doesn't do much damage. I've been collecting little hammers that are holy greater banes that do some damage, but don't have an undead one yet. Even if I did, I think my mass heal would still do more damage than a holy greater undead bane.

Meh.

In the amount of time it takes for a Halt Undead and melee smackdown, or fw and melee smackdown, why bother?

I might smack things with a dream splitter or energy drain them sometimes for faster melee smackdown.

Clerics are almost as good to pike on as bards...

[Visty]

I was referring to in game swimming. Now I can complete a quest hopefully without drowning.

This proves my point though: Who wants to play with a new player who cannot even swim yet? It is embarrassing and scary to think of playing with the seasoned players who know how to play.


well, there are no new players whodont know how to swim, as you have to swim to even finish the tutorial^^

[PopeJual]

well, there are no new players whodont know how to swim, as you have to swim to even finish the tutorial^^

To be fair, that swim is pretty short and you can get through it without knowing how to actually navigate.

On my very firstest character ever, I only survived that swim because of the "you can't die" spell. My cleric ran out of HP while getting that key underwater because it took me a little extra time to click the key and then I couldn't figure out how to get back to the surface.

...yes, I really did end up using the "you can't die" feature in the grotto. I'm going to go to my room and cry now.

[tenalafel]

...yes, I really did end up using the "you can't die" feature in the grotto.


That one of the few feature I like in that new ( compared to the originial island with the inn and the class quests ) tutorial.

There just two feature I like in it actually :
- the you can't die feature
- the swimming bit that involve getting something ( so going up and down as well as moving underwater )

It's better to experience the drowning in that quest than in a quest with a swimming bit. ( and know that the blue bar can go down.... really really really fast )

Otherwise I really prefered the old tutorial, as there was class specific stuff to do.

[stoerm]

Careful here, as this is a infraction earning offense. Just letting you know.

OK, the guy was a bit obnoxious about it, but he has a point. The OP was difficult to read.



The divide between the vet (I'm not referring to the pseudo vets who think their 2 Shroud runs qualify them to be an authority) and the newbie is widening and it's horrifying how big this divide is at present. A lot of the misunderstanding stems from both misconception and miscommunication. This thread maybe ugly, I may get neg repped but it has to be said. If you are a new player and at the end of this post you think "boy this Aranticus <insert insult> is an elitist" then you are realizing something and that is the truth. The truth is honest and brutal, I'm not going to pretend that I'm some politician and be PC about it here. As to the vets, chip in with your own perceptions as well so that the new players may know what it's really like out there.

1. Perception
Many people have the wrong concept that DDO is a game and must therefore be fun first. According to Maslow's theory of needs, each of us have a need. The need of a casual player is very different from a power gamer. The need of a new player is also different from a vet. A lot of new players think number crunching power gamers are elitists that do not have fun.

This is a wrong perception. They are having fun, in their own way. Their fun isn't about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. A power gamer's interest is in acquiring the best gear possible and gunning for seemingly impossible feats of soloing, speed, etc. A newbie may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counter spell, etc. fun. That has long since been removed from the minds of many experienced players, and the reason is they do not need to smell the flowers along the path for the 2486274th time.

2. Build
Balance and min-maxing is an often misunderstood concept. New players generally think of balance as something which allows them to meet new things head on and be prepared by means of spreading out the abilities and that min-maxing is something that implies the maxing of certain abilities at the expense of others.

Balance works real well at the lower levels as the encounters are less deadly and the DDO numbers, i.e. to hit, damage, AC, are low enough not to be of concern. This gives new players the perception that what works at L4 must work at L10 and at L20. in reality, DDO is not a proportional game. A boss at L4 may have 500 HP, at L10 it may have 2000 HP and probably 500000 at L20. Balance begins to lose focus and you will find that being specialized will actually make you perform better. This is where min-maxing comes about.

Min-maxing is not maxing an ability at the expense of others. Min-maxing is about the maxing of an important attribute while suppressing those that are not utilized. A balanced fighter in they eyes of a new player could be one with a decent DPS, nice AC, good saves all combined together. For a min-maxer, it's totally different. They will take the environment into consideration and plan accordingly.

Consider a boss fight where the boss has a to hit of 70. A new player will load up on a shield, protection item, barkskin and think his AC of 60 rocks. Unfortunately in this case, it doesn't. The boss will still only need a roll of 2 to hit. This means all that load doesn't serve a purpose! The min-maxer will use THF/TWF (no shield), lose all that AC gear and load up with guard items which inflicts damage back. You are still getting hit the same amount of times but is dealing an exponentially greater amount of damage.

The same can be applied to other aspects such as stat (CHA and INT is not really important to a barbarian, higher STR and CON is better). Note that min-maxing is really to max out your best attribute by not heeding the other aspects which are not going to factor much in performance

3. Attitude
Learn! This is the best advice I can give any new player. There are a lot of resources out here which I didn't have when i was starting out. If you are already here, read them. If you see people asking, refer them. In quest do not be afraid to ask questions (of course please limit it to the intelligent ones i.e. why is a scimitar a better weapon for an elf than a longsword?" not "can i haz ya lutz?")

Be unafraid to admit you are new. Raid leaders want 100% success as much as possible and if you are new, they won't skip some important instructions. However, you must also know where you stand. If you are new, joining a quest/raid you have not done before on hard or elite is just asking for it. Joining a LFM with "in progress", "BYOH" (just in case you do not know, it means bring your own heals), "be sufficient", "zerg run", "speed" are also asking for it. In all these runs, the leader is expecting you to be knowledgeable about the quest/raid and will not bother with helping you learn it.

Be humble. When the group leader tells you that a certain thing needs to be done, sure you can ask why but follow. Many quests/raid completion runs are quite established and usually the best tried and tested method, more importantly, it's about communication. If you do something differently, it may have a negative impact. If someone tells you that you need more HP, give us a break, don't tell us your 150 HP at L20 is enough. We know what is enough and 150 HP is not enough unless you are one of the top 5 players with enough skills to pull it off.

4. Equipment
Some players are scrooges and will save a ton of plat up and not spend a single dime. This is just asking for trouble. Status removal and healing pots are typically the least anyone should have. It's is your own character, to expect others to keep you on your feet just shows how irresponsible you are. You may say "but that is what the cleric is for!" so what happens if the cleric happens to be healing another party member and may not attend to you immediately? What happens if you need the cleric to keep removing your disease that no SP is left for heals?

Gearwise, find out what is needed. In general, a vorpal, smiter, disrupter, paralyser and a metalline of pure good/holy silver/metalline flametouched iron/etc. will serve you well for most quests/raids. Heavy fortification and HP items are important as well. Read the trade channel or server marketplace threads to see what people are WTB. This generally gives you an indication that an item may be important.

5. PnP
Ditch whatever you learn in PnP. DDO is a whole new world. My DDO fighter has 700 buff HP, 70 STR, 70 AC. I'm an equivalent of a PnP god. Lots of things in PnP don't work the same way in DDO. Lots of things are specific to DDO and not found in PnP. Most vets do not really care if you have 20 yrs of PnP experience. Take Michael Jordan for example. He plays basketball well and has 6 championship rings. He took on baseball and golf and we all know how well those went.

In summary, I'm not saying you can't enjoy the game. You sure can but do it with like minded players. If you are going to run the endgame stuff with the vets/power gamers, be prepared to raise your game to a whole new level. An old saying goes, shape up or ship out. If you are not willing to do that, very soon you will find that none of them will admit you into their runs. This is a fact. This isnt a threat. People are not being elitist, people do not want their time wasted. Each of us have different definitions of fun. People with different definitions of fun coming together is going to have moments of fiction. This is the truth.

Now, is this an infraction earning offense or a service to the community? ;) Probably missed an apostrophe somewhere.

I'm not sure what this means:

Min-maxing is not maxing an ability at the expense of others. Min-maxing is about the maxing of an important attribute while suppressing those that are not utilized.
Is this a distinction between abilities and attributes?

As some previous posters have said, I partially agree with the sentiments. While Aranticus does admit this post is from an elitist / power gaming / epic / endgame perspective, I disagree that the divide between vets and newbies is "horrifying". It's totally natural and there's nothing wrong with it.

My 2 cents: If you are racing, don't get on the track with beginners. The solution is this: communicate about the kind of run you are about to start. This helps both elitist power gamers and flower sniffing types have the enjoyable experience they want. Just let a thousand nettles bloom and don't have a heart attack if your precious raid fails.

[krud]

1. perception
many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first. ddo is Not a game, and is not supposed to be fun :eek:. Boy, I am glad I finally dropped my sub. I've been duped this whole time.


that has long since been removed from the minds of many experienced players. and the reason is they do not need to smell the flowers along the path for the 2486274th timeI can only think of a few things that would be fun after that many times, and none of them involve a computer.

[grodon9999]

I can only think of a few things that would be fun after that many times, and none of them involve a computer.

I have to disagree, streaming midget-pr0n never gets old . . .

[krud]

I have to disagree, streaming midget-pr0n never gets old . . .
That's almost 100 times a day! :eek: (given a lifespan of 80yrs). I would think it would start to hurt after a while.

[Sratapa]

Not sure why some people are getting so defensive with this post, I'm new to the game and found it was actually very good.

1. perception
This is true to any MMO. Played a few and never found an exception. Great part of DDO unlike (excuse the over used example) World of Warcraft, is that you can post your intent in the LFM.

Want people who have done the quest? "Please know the quest". If you join this and have never done the quest, then prepare to not have any fun.

Want people who are hoping to learn the quest? "Need guide"

Want a slow run "Getting all optionals" Join this quest when your looking for a speed run... well, prepare to be stressed.

The point is not that you need to play using someone else's definition of fun, but simply join the appropriate group.



2. build
Fun builds are fun! But your high Dex Wizard intimi-tank may have problems finding a group. You may not believe it, but you have been forewarned!



3. attitude
As a new player it can be a little intimidating telling a group, but at the very least if the raid leader asks if anyone is new to the quest... fess up. Nothing is more embarrassing than setting off a party wiping trap after you basically told people by omission that you a know the quest like the back of your hand.

Might just be my server, but after saying "yah this is my first time in here" most people are pretty awesome of telling me whats expected, and it helps not just me but my group as a whole.

As a side note, if your told what's expected... listen! If your in a 12 man raid and told "just run and don't attack the fire elementals" perhaps you should not attack the fire elementals.



4. equipment
To be honest, I didn't even realize this until I read this post. Just this simple piece of advice has been a huge help. Carrying a stack of cure serious wounds potions is not only much cheaper than I thought, but keeps my all topped up between encounters without wasting my healers bar.
As for status effects, I can cure them myself mid-fight even though my healer is too busy spamming heals. Much faster than typing in that I need remove blindness and waiting for the healer to find time in his healing to cure me (assuming he has SP to spare)



5. PnP
I'll take your word on this. Not a lot of personal experience.


As for the OP summary, let me say that as a new player my worst experience was a run where we wiped continually, due to lack of heals. A huge amount of wasted time and plat. The reason for this was simple, many of us didn't follow the above rules.

None of us brought our own healing so relied completely on the cleric. The cleric however, didn't bother to let the group know that he was a battle cleric and didn't have any healing spells memorized. Had we communicated with each other better we would have had a much better run, got more XP, lost less plat and accrued less stress.

[donnala]

As a new player who has never done a quest with a group, can someone explain how this is done. I would like to know how the group is formed, if experience in the quest is needed, what rules there are to follow, what happens to the loot and what happens if a character dies or gets lost?

Basically I want to know how it all works.

Thank you,

Donnala

[SaneDitto]

As a new player who has never done a quest with a group, can someone explain how this is done. I would like to know how the group is formed, if experience in the quest is needed, what rules there are to follow, what happens to the loot and what happens if a character dies or gets lost?

Basically I want to know how it all works.

Thank you,

Donnala

A group tends to form by one of two ways: General Chat and the Social Panel (default "O" key). The former is generally frowned upon.

To join a group, click on the party ad that you want to be a part of and click "Join". Before you do, though, check to see that you are the kind of player they want--you may be a fighter when they want a "healer" instead. If in doubt, you can /tell the leader and ask if you can join, stating your class and what you tend to do in parties. You'll usually get a reply.

EDIT: To create a group, open the Social Panel and click the "Create Party" button. Narrow down a level range, the classes you want, type in what you're looking for (e.g. "New person looking to run so-and-so. Slow run, no zerging" or something like that) and select "Update". Your ad will be up on the Social Panel.

Quest experience is liked, but not really necessary as long as the ad doesn't say things like "Know your way", "no noobs", "be self-sufficient" and so forth. Otherwise, most people are tolerant of newbies as long as you state up front that you don't know the quest.

The general rule for parties is to work together. A party where the members run off like headless chickens (subsequently dying is optional) is not a party that works together. A party where the monk loots a trap-riddled chest even after the rogue called "traps" and is disarming it, thus causing a near party wipe, is not a party that works together. Observe what others are doing, pay attention to the chatbox and voice (ask for clarification if you have to) and you will be fine. Other parties may have other requirements (e.g. "bring feather falling" in The Pit), but being able to work as a team will carry you a long way.

Your loot, your choice. If you, for example, loot the +100 Awesome Greatsword of Infinite Butt-kicking on your two-weapon fighter and another character is ranting at you and demands to have it, you are under no obligation whatsoever to pony up. It is your loot, and you shouldn't let other players browbeat you into having it. Any charity on your part should be willing. However, when a particularly coveted item that is Bound to Character drops (e.g. Mysterious Bauble), and you are on a character that won't make use of it and don't plan to TR (like a fighter or barbarian), usually players would "roll" for it, and the highest roll gets the item. But again, your loot, your choice.

If a character dies in a quest, the party will lose the "Flawless Victory" 10% EXP bonus. Whether this is a big deal varies from character to character; TR's may get antsy due to needing more EXP to level than ordinary characters, but not all do. However, if the character releases and enters again, the party will also lose the "Persistence" 10% EXP bonus, and the re-entered character will also suffer an additional -25% re-entry penalty, which gets bigger as he re-enters more often for one reason or another. This is why when characters usually die they remain there and wait for another party member to take their soulstone close enough for a shrine to be resurrected, or have a cleric cast Raise Dead/Resurrection on them. Generally, it's best not to die at all. You get to keep the Flawless Victory bonus and the platinum that would otherwise go to your repair bill. ;)

If you get lost, it's a good idea to let the party know, especially if you're someplace like, say, the Pit, and remain in place unless you are in immediate danger or the leader/guide tells you to move, as moving around makes it harder to be picked up.


Well, that's quite a big blurb for advice that may or may not be up for vetproval. Good luck, have fun, and don't rack up a huge repair bill. :)

[jillie]

I'm a newer player, here because of F2P, went VIP cuz I simply have enormous amounts of fun playing DDO. I have a capped toon who mostly raids and is getting more interested in epics. I have low level toons who run with friends who like to smell roses, and with them I explore aspects of the game I've missed. I have a mid-upper level toon who zergs responsibly. I'm delightedly still new enough that sometimes I just have to stop and look around, enjoying the scenery, and I found the hammock, too.

But I wouldn't be enjoying the game on this many levels had I not, while very new, caught a guild leader's attention in a Delara's PUG I joined from the LFM. He and my new guildies handed me a few at level weapons, helped me through the parts I had trouble with (I never played Mario), and I continue to learn from them today.

I agree with the OP. And the post rewritten from the newbie POV had some good points, too. (+1 to each poster.) Some new players are, well, noobs. Some vets are snooty and full of themselves. There are similarities to the eternal old/young dichotomy, and it probably won't change, simply because of the dynamics of population growth within the game. F2P does remove a barrier to play (younger people are less likely to have plastic, or income, to pay with), thus ensuring a much larger number of new players, while also decreasing the average age of the new ones.

Me, I think I'll go look for a good guild raid. Or maybe hook up with a friend, and crawl through a wilderness with archers and a hastebot. Of course, my lowbie pally with no "older sister" might find a nice Delara's PUG on that new server ...


As a new player who has never done a quest with a group, can someone explain how this is done. I would like to know how the group is formed, if experience in the quest is needed, what rules there are to follow, what happens to the loot and what happens if a character dies or gets lost?

To get to the page with open LFMs (notices that there's a person interested in forming a group and running some quests, or exploring wilderness areas), just hit your 'o' key, for the social page. There'll be a list, sometimes long, sometimes short, of all the groups being formed at the moment, and it updates in real time. Just double click on a group you're interested in.

If experience is needed, or special rules are to be followed, the leader should make a note of that in the listing. You can always single click on one, and click the TELL button under the list, to send a private message to the person putting the group together (the group leader). Loot, in most groups, simply goes to the person who gets it - chest loot is assigned to a specific player. It's good manners to offer stuff you can't use (thieve's tools, when you're running a barb) to players who can (that rogue, or multi-classed ranger, who's disabling the traps), but it's not strictly necessary.

If you get lost, say so as quickly as you realize it. If you die, and there's no group members near, you're on your own, unless someone is really really nice and finds you. If you're with the group, then someone will pickup your soulstone, and teke it to a shrine, where you can resurrect.

Have fun, and please do follow some of the suggestions in this thread, like carrying at least a few potions!

[Maegin]

the divide between the vet (i'm not referring to the pseudo vets who think their 2 shoud runs qualify them to be an authority) and the newbie is widening and its horrifying how big this divide is at present. a lot of the misunderstanding stems from both misconception and miscommunication. this thread maybe ugly, i may get neg repped but it has to be said. if you are a new player and at the end of this post you think "boy this aranticus <insert insult> is an elitist" then you are realising something and that is the truth. the truth is honest and brutal, i'm not going to pretend that i'm some politician and be PC about it here. as to the vets, chip in with your own perceptions as well so that the new players may know what its really like out there

1. perception
many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first. according to maslow theory of needs, each of us have a need. the need of a casual player is very different from a powergamer. the need of a new player is also different from a vet. a lot of new players thing number crunching powergamers are elitists that do not have fun.

this is a wrong perception. they are having fun, in their own way. their fun isnt about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. a powergamer's interest is in acquiring the best gear possible and gunning for seemingly impossible feats of soloing, speed, etc. a newbie may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counterspell, etc fun. that has long since been removed from the minds of many experienced players. and the reason is they do not need to smell the flowers along the path for the 2486274th time

2. build
balance and min-maxing is an often misunderstood concept. new players generally thing of balance as something which allows them to meet new things head on and be prepared by means of spreading out the abilities and that min-maxing is something that implies the maxing of certain abilities at the expense of others

balance works real well at the lower levels as the encounters are less deadly and the ddo numbers ie to hit, damage, AC, are low enough not to be of concern. this gives new players the perception that what works at L4 must work at L10 and at L20. in reality, ddo is not a proportional game. a boss at L4 may have 500 hp, at L10 it may have 2000 hp and probably 500000 at L20. balance begins to lose focus and you will find that being specialised will actually make you perform better. this is where min-maxing comes about

min-maxing is not maxing an ability at the expense of others. min-maxing is about the maxing of an important attribute while suppressing those that are not utilised. a balanced fighter in they eyes of a new player could be one with a decent dps, nice ac, good saves all combined together. for a min-maxer, its totally different. they will take the environment into consideration and plan accordingly

consider a boss fight where the boss has a to hit of 70. a new player will load up on a shield, protection item, barkskin and think his AC of 60 rocks. unfortunately in this case, it doesnt. the boss will still only need a roll of 2 to hit. this means all that load doesnt serve a purpose! the min-maxer will use thf/twf (no shield), lose all that AC gear and load up with guard items which inflicts damage back. you are still getting hit the same amount of times but is dealing an exponetially greater amount of damage

the same can be applied to other aspects such as stat (cha and int is not really important to a barb, higher str and con is better). note that min-maxing is really to max out your best attribute by not heeding the other aspects which are not going to factor much in performance

3. attitude
learn! this is the best advice i can give any new player. there are a lot of resources out here which i didnt have when i was starting out. if you are already here, read them. if you see people asking, refer them. in quest do not be afraid to ask questions (of course please limit it to the intelligent ones ie why is a scimitar a better weapon for an elf than a longsword?" not "can i haz ya lutz?")

be unafraid to admit you are new. raid leaders want 100% success as much as possible and if you are new, they wont skip some important instructions. however, you must also know where you stand. if you are new, joining a quest/raid you have not done before on hard or elite is just asking for it. joining a lfm with "in progress", "byoh" (just in case you do not know, it means bring your own heals), "be sufficient", "zerg run", "speed" are also asking for it. in all these runs, the leader is expecting you to be knowledgable about the quest/raid and will not bother with helping you learn it

be humble. when the group leader tells you that a certain thing needs to be done, sure you can ask why but follow. many quests/raid completion runs are quite established and usually the best tried and tested method, more importantly, its about communication. if you do something differently, it may have a negative impact. if someone tells you that you need more hp, give us a break, dun tell us your 150 hp at L20 is enough. we know what is enough and 150 hp is not enough unless you are one of the top 5 players with enough skills to pull it off

4. equipment
some playes are scrooges and will save a ton of plat up and not spend a single dime. this is just asking for trouble. status removal and healing pots are typically the least anyone should have. its is your own character, to expect others to keep you on your feet just shows how irresponsible you are. you may say "but that is what the cleric is for!" so what happens if the clr happens to be healing another party member and may not attend to you immediately? what happens if you need the clr to keep removing your disease that no sp is left for heals?

gear wise, find out what is needed. in general, a vorpal, smiter, disrupter, paralyser and a metalline of pure good/holy silver/metalline flametouched iron/etc will serve you well for most quests/raids. heavy fortification and hp items are important as well. read the trade channel or server marketplace threads to see what people are WTB. this generally give you an indication that an item may be important

5. PnP
ditch whatever you learn in PnP. DDO is a whole new world. my DDO fighter has 700 buff hp, 70 str, 70 AC. i'm an equivalent of a PnP god. lots of things in PnP doesnt work the same way in DDO. lots of things are specific to DDO and not found in PnP. most vets do not really care if you have 20 yrs of PnP experience. take michael jordan for example. he plays basketball well and have 6 championship rings. he takes on baseball and golf and we all know how well those went

in summary, i'm not saying you cant enjoy the game. you sure can but do it with like minded players. if you are going to run the endgame stuff with the vets/powergamers, be prepared to raise your game to a whole new level. an old saying goes, shape up or ship out. if you are not willing to do that, very soon you will find that none of them will admit you into their runs. this is a fact. this isnt a threat. people are not being elitist, people do not want their time wasted. each of us have different definitions of fun. people with different definitions of fun coming together is going to have moments of fiction. this is the truth

http://i580.photobucket.com/albums/ss248/pbrown63303/QuiteRly.jpg

[Elphvyra]

None of us brought our own healing so relied completely on the cleric. The cleric however, didn't bother to let the group know that he was a battle cleric and didn't have any healing spells memorized. Had we communicated with each other better we would have had a much better run, got more XP, lost less plat and accrued less stress.

The cleric lied to you. Clerics ALWAYS have healing spells memorized. It's automatic and they can't change the spells out.... ;)

[Aranticus]

The cleric lied to you. Clerics ALWAYS have healing spells memorized. It's automatic and they can't change the spells out.... ;)

or the cleric is infact a fvs :eek:

[Daggertooth]

I couldn't agree more with Lazylaz.

Rule #4 (Rules 1 -3 refer to Fight Club)
Never accept blind invites form people youy don't know.

Corollary to Rule #4: People who blind invite strangers are generally spamming the blind invites to anybody and anyone that they can. Rule #4 is founded upon Mutual Respect and Consideration. Many players of DDO, especially long term players) view both Blind Party Invites and Blind Guild Invites to be rude, obnoxious and/or inconsiderate. Especially if you have an LFM up. If we wanted to join your group we would have hit up the LFM panel and click the join party button. It is really a matter of common curtesy.

Whatever curtesy is , it has nothing to do with Courtesy. If you are so concerned about courtesy, get out into the real world and learn about it. Everyone is playing the game to have fun. People are not here to fill up your deficiency in actual social interaction. If you don't want to accept a blind invite, its simple: hit decline. Don't come on these boards and start spouting off about rule number four and what a couple of dinosaurs on the verge of extinction consider to be rude and obnoxious. I think YOU are rude and obnoxious. I've been playing this game since launch and I send out blind invites on occasion and more often then not, we end up having a nice run and adding each other to our friends list.

[Daggertooth]

I couldn't agree more with Lazylaz.

Rule #4 (Rules 1 -3 refer to Fight Club)
Never accept blind invites form people youy don't know.

Corollary to Rule #4: People who blind invite strangers are generally spamming the blind invites to anybody and anyone that they can. Rule #4 is founded upon Mutual Respect and Consideration. Many players of DDO, especially long term players) view both Blind Party Invites and Blind Guild Invites to be rude, obnoxious and/or inconsiderate. Especially if you have an LFM up. If we wanted to join your group we would have hit up the LFM panel and click the join party button. It is really a matter of common curtesy.

Dude mutual respect and consideration? You sound like you really need to shut the computer and go outside. Let me enlighten you a little.. Not everyone here thinks in terms of spamming, toons, tanks, dps, and the other 10 words that comprise the MMO vocabulary. There is a social panel with a list of names and an invite button for a reason. If you are unable to understand it , fine, but don't come on here acting like Ms. Manners for people who are locked up in their parents' basement.

[maddenmasterj]

Great post I have only been playing a few weeks and have learned much from these forums and character build guides. It is nice to see someone who is not afraid to voice their opinion without regret it is because of vets like yourself that new people like myself can learn the what and what nots to do in party/raid setting. I prefer mostly to solo but when i reach whatever lvl it is to where i can start raiding I am always open to constructive crit.
Peace out!

[Aranticus]

Great post I have only been playing a few weeks and have learned much from these forums and character build guides. It is nice to see someone who is not afraid to voice their opinion without regret it is because of vets like yourself that new people like myself can learn the what and what nots to do in party/raid setting. I prefer mostly to solo but when i reach whatever lvl it is to where i can start raiding I am always open to constructive crit.
Peace out!

its not that i'm not afraid to voice my opinion but rather i'm not from the US. unfortunately my society is also undergoing a social transformation where sugar coating is becoming more commonplace

in my workplace, when my boss tells us that we are strongly encouraged to do a certain thing, its just the same as "do this or your appraisal will be affected". such a society has its downfalls. you will always live in fear because you never know what others are actually trying to communicate. you never know who your friends are as everyone has a mask on

otoh i understand how posting in my style is going to put people off. to me, its pretty much "if you cant take this, grow some skin". i'm not one to mince my words. its just that humans in general are becoming soft

What does not destroy me, makes me strong - Friedrich Neitzche

[wolflordnexus]

its not that i'm not afraid to voice my opinion but rather i'm not from the US. unfortunately my society is also undergoing a social transformation where sugar coating is becoming more commonplace

in my workplace, when my boss tells us that we are strongly encouraged to do a certain thing, its just the same as "do this or your appraisal will be affected". such a society has its downfalls. you will always live in fear because you never know what others are actually trying to communicate. you never know who your friends are as everyone has a mask on

otoh i understand how posting in my style is going to put people off. to me, its pretty much "if you cant take this, grow some skin". i'm not one to mince my words. its just that humans in general are becoming soft

What does not destroy me, makes me strong - Friedrich Neitzche

Most people can express their opinion just fine without being condescending and arrogant though. Make whatever excuses for it you like but at the end of the day it's called Tact and it doesn't hurt to use some on occasion. I'm not all that good at not being an ass myself but I don't sugarcoat it. I'm an ass and that's the way it is. I can keep it fairly civil online because I actually have to read what I type, and have enough empathy to read it from other peoples perspective. I saw you mention empathy in your post you seem to expect it from others but do you really show it to anyone else? Look honestly Aranticus you generally have a good and valid point, but reading your posts pretty much always makes me think who the hell does this guy think he is. You talk of humility when you have none. You speak of empathy, you show none.




their fun isnt about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart.

See this is the kind of thing that ****es people off what did this line add to your rant? Nothing it was simply a way for you to stick it to the noobs. If you actually believe that to be the goal of new players then you have no clue.


Be unafraid to admit you are new. raid leaders want 100% success as much as possible and if you are new, they wont skip some important instructions.

I have always done this but I know a few who don't the reason why is because they got tired of being hazed or simply tossed from the group. The fun you have telling the noob to pick up the docent may not be fun for them.



some playes are scrooges and will save a ton of plat up and not spend a single dime. this is just asking for trouble. status removal and healing pots are typically the least anyone should have. its is your own character, to expect others to keep you on your feet just shows how irresponsible you are. you may say "but that is what the cleric is for!" so what happens if the clr happens to be healing another party member and may not attend to you immediately? what happens if you need the clr to keep removing your disease that no sp is left for heals?

Honestly without a high level toon to bankroll your pots it's just not an option to carry a stack for every occasion and still have any money left for the following


gear wise, find out what is needed. in general, a vorpal, smiter, disrupter, paralyser and a metalline of pure good/holy silver/metalline flametouched iron/etc will serve you well for most quests/raids. heavy fortification and hp items are important as well. read the trade channel or server marketplace threads to see what people are WTB. this generally give you an indication that an item may be important

Not with the average market we deal with anyway.




ditch whatever you learn in PnP. DDO is a whole new world. my DDO fighter has 700 buff hp, 70 str, 70 AC. i'm an equivalent of a PnP god. lots of things in PnP doesnt work the same way in DDO. lots of things are specific to DDO and not found in PnP. most vets do not really care if you have 20 yrs of PnP experience. take michael jordan for example. he plays basketball well and have 6 championship rings. he takes on baseball and golf and we all know how well those went


This is silly the only reason I have done as well as I have in this game Is that I'm a PnP power gamer the rules aren't that different the scales just a bit higher and there are a few new numbers to work in. AC is mostly worthless in PnP HP and saves are pretty much the best defense there as well . I've played Monty haul campaigns in 3.5 and believe me DDO chars wouldn't measure up there.

In the end People learn by doing you are going to see people fail again, and again because people make mistakes It's how they learn. Want to know how I found out you don't put a key in the light socket?

if at the end of this post you think "boy this Nexus <insert insult> is an ass" then you are realising something and that is the truth. the truth is honest and brutal.

[Visty]

if at the end of this post you think "boy this Nexus <insert insult> is an ass" then you are realising something and that is the truth. the truth is honest and brutal.

its your opinion and not the truth

your opinion is just your opinion, nothing else

[Dunfalach]

Personally, as a relatively new player (little over a year here, and highest level toon is a 9 due to an excess of altitis), I found the OP's post pretty reasonable.

The only thing I would put in for vets such as the OP describes is: If you are in a "don't need to smell the roses again" mode, don't join groups that aren't labeled zerg, BYOH, etc unless you ask first whether it's okay if you zerg it or whether they're trying for completion. You should assume that a group that *isn't* labeled zerg, BYOH, etc is not going for what you're looking for, and stay out of it unless you ask. One of the reasons zergs get a bad name, regardless of whether they're vets or just leeroys, is when they zerg without asking in a group that's not planning to zerg. Just as slow folks have a responsibility not to screw up a zerg group by joining in, zergs have a responsibility not to screw up a slow group by joining in.

I stay out of zerg groups, because I know I can't hack it in a zerg group, unless it's for a low-level quest that I've run many times. And that takes a while. I still get lost in Misery's Peak on the ramps after my 13th or so toon and probably 20th or more run through there. ;) On the other hand, I'm very close to memorized on Durk's Got a Secret and Butcher's Path. So if I were in a hurry to level I might join zerg groups on those.

One reason people get in trouble with joining groups different than they are is that they want that quest, they can't or don't want to solo it, and they only see one group running it. So they join that group regardless because they need that quest. When what they should do (regardless of newbie or vet perspective) is start a new group. But newbies are afraid to be the party leader, and vets don't want the hassle of filtering for people of the type they want to run with. So they join an existing group with no intentions to run things that group's way.

[Aranticus]

Most people can express their opinion just fine without being condescending and arrogant though. Make whatever excuses for it you like but at the end of the day it's called Tact and it doesn't hurt to use some on occasion. I'm not all that good at not being an ass myself but I don't sugarcoat it. I'm an ass and that's the way it is. I can keep it fairly civil online because I actually have to read what I type, and have enough empathy to read it from other peoples perspective. I saw you mention empathy in your post you seem to expect it from others but do you really show it to anyone else? Look honestly Aranticus you generally have a good and valid point, but reading your posts pretty much always makes me think who the hell does this guy think he is. You talk of humility when you have none. You speak of empathy, you show none.

unfortunately yet another person who fails to empathize with the other spectrum of players. if you actually get to read stuff elsewhere (PM Strakeln for details). you will see what really goes on. if you are in private channels with the more experienced guilds on your server, you will see what really goes on. the OP is a reflection of reality, one which you never see and thus cannot empathise


See this is the kind of thing that ****es people off what did this line add to your rant? Nothing it was simply a way for you to stick it to the noobs. If you actually believe that to be the goal of new players then you have no clue.

if you actually believe that it is faked, probably you have not seen it all


I have always done this but I know a few who don't the reason why is because they got tired of being hazed or simply tossed from the group. The fun you have telling the noob to pick up the docent may not be fun for them.

everytime i ask a player is new, i give more detailed instructions. i do not toss players from the group without reason but those tossed by me are usually players who cant follow instructions. most times a new player doesnt admit that he/she is new usually meant screw ups. picking up the pop docent is not something i would do. i would tell them to click on the shroud portal to get us 2 extra chests. the problem here is, you judge others


Honestly without a high level toon to bankroll your pots it's just not an option to carry a stack for every occasion and still have any money left for the following

this is false on 3 accounts. (1) i never said they had to carry a stack. i said they needed to carry some for emergencies at the very least. (2) potions can be obtained from breakables and from chest drops. (3) by L10, most players would have accumulated some plat enough for some basic potions


Not with the average market we deal with anyway.

the auction may not always be where one must get their gear from. even if its on the auction, you need not always need to buy the best. ie instead of using a paralysing khopesh or scimitar, you could use say a sickle? instead of a disrupting warhammer, you could use a club? the problem is most people cannot accept alternatives. in addition you could also run through the brokers. sometimes you can really get lucky. there could also be players giving stuff out. you didnt know i was doing that did ya?



This is silly the only reason I have done as well as I have in this game Is that I'm a PnP power gamer the rules aren't that different the scales just a bit higher and there are a few new numbers to work in. AC is mostly worthless in PnP HP and saves are pretty much the best defense there as well . I've played Monty haul campaigns in 3.5 and believe me DDO chars wouldn't measure up there.

then the pnp that you play is very different from others. most of the players i know that talk about their pnp thinks 50 is a solid ac. they think 28 str rocks. 150 on a firewall is uber


In the end People learn by doing you are going to see people fail again, and again because people make mistakes It's how they learn. Want to know how I found out you don't put a key in the light socket?

it bites isnt it? just like this post aint it? ddo? its way too easy for people to ride on other peoples coattails. ask around in khyber. there is a wizard that has TR multiple times but his raids never fill. you want to know why?


if at the end of this post you think "boy this Nexus <insert insult> is an ass" then you are realising something and that is the truth. the truth is honest and brutal.

nah didnt feel that way. you are seeing another side of the truth that me and many others are not seeing

[Plaidpooka]

That's what you can expect from blind invites.
I've long ago stopped accepting blind invites on my cleric, just because you don't know
where it will take you.
And i would strongly recommend you to do the same.

I do enjoy pugging too, but not that kind of pug you described.


If you get into such a pug, speak up. You are the cleric, you are expected to heal people during fights.
Not that it's your job or your final duty, but people expect it from the party cleric and
you're good at it, so you can aswell use some of your SP to prevent them from dying.

But if they don't wait for you (i know how slow clerics can be) they can't expect you to do anything.

Tell them exactly that: "Wait for me or you might die horribly, as i couldn't even heal you if i wanted to, clerics are much slower than monk/ranger/barb splashes!"


If they do so, fine, seems they can at least read/listen.

If not, leave them, you won't have any fun running with them and all they'd do would
be complaining.

Clerics/FvS are welcome in almost every PUG, so you won't have trouble finding a decent one.

Well said. I run a FS. My comps a little laggy, easpecially on the zone. I tell pug groups this up front. That doesn't stop them from racing on ahead of me. I once zoned into a quest to find 3 members of the group already dead. If ya start without the healer, ain't nobody getting healed. Also did one pug where the group raced ahead, after agroing a mob on me. Guess who died that time? My FS is not particularly squishy, but she can't take a mob by herself. And she can't heal anyone if she's riding in a backpack. None of this bothered me especially, in gameplay sometimes stuff happens. But both groups wanted to whine about it. If you don't wait for the healer, or you leave the healer to die, fine. But don't complain about it after.

[Dunfalach]

Well said. I run a FS. My comps a little laggy, easpecially on the zone. I tell pug groups this up front. That doesn't stop them from racing on ahead of me. I once zoned into a quest to find 3 members of the group already dead. If ya start without the healer, ain't nobody getting healed. Also did one pug where the group raced ahead, after agroing a mob on me. Guess who died that time? My FS is not particularly squishy, but she can't take a mob by herself. And she can't heal anyone if she's riding in a backpack. None of this bothered me especially, in gameplay sometimes stuff happens. But both groups wanted to whine about it. If you don't wait for the healer, or you leave the healer to die, fine. But don't complain about it after.

Oh dear. I was not the cleric in question, but I remember that happening on a pug I was in before. Two members ran off down a corridor and I believed died in a trap before the cleric even got in. I seem to remember hauling both stones around in my backpack for a good long time before we found a shrine. Me, I stood there at the entrance and waited for the rest of the party to arrive like a good little player.

I am also reminded of the impatient bard in elite Swiped Signet. A couple of guys went ahead to start clearing before everyone was in, and the bard arrived just a smidge late and went behind them. Since we had no rogue in yet, they turned the lever to shut off the first set of traps, and started through about the time the bard arrived. And turned the lever again. Despite several people telling him not to. Which turned the traps back on. With the leaders in them. Boom. Bard raced onward and died when he sprung the second set of traps. He instantly recalled out, and the party leader instantly booted him before he could come back in. I was fortunately behind the bard so I saw what he was doing and stopped. Pity the poor cleric, too, who came in late at a dead run down the corridor with a horde of enemies behind her, as we'd opened the main door just before she arrived, so all the enemies in the first room spotted her and came charging after her. :> Fortunately myself and the rogue were able to peel them off her in a very rough battle while the ones who had died in the traps to start with were repairing and healing in the tavern.

[wolflordnexus]

unfortunately yet another person who fails to empathize with the other spectrum of players. if you actually get to read stuff elsewhere (PM Strakeln for details). you will see what really goes on. if you are in private channels with the more experienced guilds on your server, you will see what really goes on. the OP is a reflection of reality, one which you never see and thus cannot empathise

I've seen the other forum It's more of the same whining about the noobs. You and others come across better there as the tone you use is expected there, and that's fine It's the difference of talking with your friends at home vs talking with your co workers at the office. I've ran into the people that refuse to learn as well but I don't feel the need to rant on the forums every single time I do.




if you actually believe that it is faked, probably you have not seen it all

No I haven't seen it all and I'm sure there's maybe 1 or 2 people out there who subscribe to that kind of fun but If you cant see that your painting a lot of people with an very large brush with your statement I can't help you.




everytime i ask a player is new, i give more detailed instructions. i do not toss players from the group without reason but those tossed by me are usually players who cant follow instructions. most times a new player doesnt admit that he/she is new usually meant screw ups. picking up the pop docent is not something i would do. i would tell them to click on the shroud portal to get us 2 extra chests. the problem here is, you judge others

That's great I and many others appreciate that you are a help full person but you have to realize you are not the only person they have ever grouped with and it doesn't take but a few times of people being negative to leave a lasting expression. I agree that the best option is for people to communicate but until we stop getting people in advice with the winning advice of type /death count, and in quest hey go pick up that docent your going to find some new folks that are irrational about their fears and with good reason. Personally when I lead a raid I have learned to just assume it's everyone's first time I give exact instructions, communicate clearly, and rarely encounter problems.




this is false on 3 accounts. (1) i never said they had to carry a stack. i said they needed to carry some for emergencies at the very least. (2) potions can be obtained from breakables and from chest drops. (3) by L10, most players would have accumulated some plat enough for some basic potions

(1) But you need a stack if your going to cure every freaking ailment to come your way a lot of status effects in this game.

(2) A) you rarely see people willing to let the noobs stop to pick up anything B) those Potions generally run out of usefulness about the time you get off korthos when you have over 100 hp the 20 CLW you pick up seriously isn't making a dent your out by tough fight #2

(3) not if they are actually equipping themselves at regular intervals with all the gear you expect them to have Luckily there are plenty of immunity items that drop regularly while vets shouldn't usually waste valuable slots on them these are great for new players until they can get the cash for all the pots they should be carrying. But I never see vets suggest these I see them hark on about the stupid noob wasting his item slots when he could just be carrying pots.



the auction may not always be where one must get their gear from. even if its on the auction, you need not always need to buy the best. ie instead of using a paralysing khopesh or scimitar, you could use say a sickle? instead of a disrupting warhammer, you could use a club? the problem is most people cannot accept alternatives. in addition you could also run through the brokers. sometimes you can really get lucky. there could also be players giving stuff out. you didnt know i was doing that did ya?

Look I check the brokers regularly I don't see a whole lot of paralyzers stat damagers disrupters Vorpals ect on there regardless of weapon types and even the crappy weapons tend to be outrageously expensive to a new player on the AH 10k+ plat can be a big investment for someone that doesn't have a high level alt bankrolling them. I totally know you give out gear you already said that and I can read your not the only one. But as I was leveling my first toon there was no one there handing me toys I earned my own keep I didn't ask for anyone's loot and I'm sure I wasn't alone. I've outfitted a few new players myself doesn't mean I expect that everyone has a sugar daddy.





then the pnp that you play is very different from others. most of the players i know that talk about their pnp thinks 50 is a solid ac. they think 28 str rocks. 150 on a firewall is uber

There are many ways to play PnP but I'm an optimizer and knowledge of PnP rules has helped me a lot in this game. That's not to say I didn't re roll about 20 times to get the toon exactly the way I wanted it but I'm anal like that.




it bites isnt it? just like this post aint it? ddo? its way too easy for people to ride on other peoples coattails. ask around in khyber. there is a wizard that has TR multiple times but his raids never fill. you want to know why?

I know why he grouped with people that finished the quest as he got in the door and never really saw a monster most likely


nah didn't feel that way. you are seeing another side of the truth that me and many others are not seeing

It comes down to perspective you have been here forever the things you trivialize are tough for newer players and you just can't see that. Of course the problem is every time you lay down your truth you feel the need to feed the noob vs vet mentality I don't know if it is your intent or not. I would like to think not but I don't know you.

[Aranticus]

I've seen the other forum It's more of the same whining about the noobs. You and others come across better there as the tone you use is expected there, and that's fine It's the difference of talking with your friends at home vs talking with your co workers at the office. I've ran into the people that refuse to learn as well but I don't feel the need to rant on the forums every single time I do.

like i said, i'm honest about my feelings, i do not mince my words. in case you missed it, this thread is not a rant


No I haven't seen it all and I'm sure there's maybe 1 or 2 people out there who subscribe to that kind of fun but If you cant see that your painting a lot of people with an very large brush with your statement I can't help you.

your brush is big too. what i've observed is more than this 1 or 2 people. its actually quite a huge percentage


That's great I and many others appreciate that you are a help full person but you have to realize you are not the only person they have ever grouped with and it doesn't take but a few times of people being negative to leave a lasting expression. I agree that the best option is for people to communicate but until we stop getting people in advice with the winning advice of type /death count, and in quest hey go pick up that docent your going to find some new folks that are irrational about their fears and with good reason. Personally when I lead a raid I have learned to just assume it's everyone's first time I give exact instructions, communicate clearly, and rarely encounter problems.

the reverse can be said, this thread is to illustrate to the new players what goes on in the minds of many vet players. 1 or 2 bad experiences with said player will lead to this player being put on the list. many players, me including have also put entire guilds on the list because of repeatly bad experiences with their members. and thus is the purpose of this thread

like i said, your world is very different. my raids fill quick, sometimes without pugs. that 1 or 2 new players can create a huge impact


(1) But you need a stack if your going to cure every freaking ailment to come your way a lot of status effects in this game.

you really only need remove curse, lesser restore, some heal pots. most other effects can be overcomed with immunity items. a lot of plat can also be earned if you turn in your collectables and selling them while keeping the more valuable ones for yourself


(2) A) you rarely see people willing to let the noobs stop to pick up anything

(1) do not confuse a newb with a noob. i'll give newbs the benefit of doubt, noobs can be erased off the face of this world for all i care. (2) many new players take their time running all the optionals, checking breakables, etc. and if you read my OP, you just talked about joining a zerg group


B) those Potions generally run out of usefulness about the time you get off korthos when you have over 100 hp the 20 CLW you pick up seriously isn't making a dent your out by tough fight #2

this statement just shows how little you know about ddo. at the lower levels, unless its elite or solo, a party using teamwork can have little resource use


(3) not if they are actually equipping themselves at regular intervals with all the gear you expect them to have

there are many places to get such items, the definitive loot thread is perhaps the best thread in the forums as it shows players where to get them


Luckily there are plenty of immunity items that drop regularly while vets shouldn't usually waste valuable slots on them these are great for new players until they can get the cash for all the pots they should be carrying. But I never see vets suggest these I see them hark on about the stupid noob wasting his item slots when he could just be carrying pots.

if the newbie has the plat to buy the items but not pots, kinda conflicting right?


Look I check the brokers regularly I don't see a whole lot of paralyzers stat damagers disrupters Vorpals ect on there regardless of weapon types and even the crappy weapons tend to be outrageously expensive to a new player on the AH 10k+ plat can be a big investment for someone that doesn't have a high level alt bankrolling them.

there are a few brokers. find out which one is in the area where your local plat farmers are running. the brokers there tend to be full of unexpected stuff


I totally know you give out gear you already said that and I can read your not the only one. But as I was leveling my first toon there was no one there handing me toys I earned my own keep I didn't ask for anyone's loot and I'm sure I wasn't alone. I've outfitted a few new players myself doesn't mean I expect that everyone has a sugar daddy.

working as a guild the least anyone could do is to help the new guildie by outfitting at least 1 toon. i'm pretty sure any guild could do that unless its a new guild. even then, players can trade among themselves. unfortunately, many guilds are not doing that. i'd go even further and say guilds should at least train their members in terms of play skill and knowledge


There are many ways to play PnP but I'm an optimizer and knowledge of PnP rules has helped me a lot in this game. That's not to say I didn't re roll about 20 times to get the toon exactly the way I wanted it but I'm anal like that.

in the opposite perspective, the 1st toon i rolled was based on what would work in pnp. it failed miserably


I know why he grouped with people that finished the quest as he got in the door and never really saw a monster most likely

nope, in ddo 1 player can drag 5 others in a quest. most raids only require 3-5 people actually doing anything. a lot of players think that getting to 20 is a big accomplishment. its not. ddo now is way to easy


It comes down to perspective you have been here forever the things you trivialize are tough for newer players and you just can't see that. Of course the problem is every time you lay down your truth you feel the need to feed the noob vs vet mentality I don't know if it is your intent or not. I would like to think not but I don't know you.

actually no. in fact if you read the forums, there are actually a lot of newer players that are playing this card and calling the vets elitist. truth is many of them cannot handle it when its played on them

this thread does not call out anyone. its a reflection of what many vets are feeling. vets are being called elitist because we put up byoh runs, etc. if a new player can put up a non zerg run, cant vets do the same? if you cant keep up in a zerg run, the zerger is called an elitist?

as many posters have correctly seen my intent, too often new players bite more than they chew and choke. this can be simply avoided by going slow, looking for like minded players until they are comfortable enough with the game. do not always blame others for the experience, there are times when the pedicament is brought on by themselves

[Postumus]

I wonder what some people's reactions to the OP would have been if he simply stated something along the lines of:


In otherwords his main point, but without the examples. I seems to me that some people are so wrapped up in the examples, that they miss the point, just like the old saying goes: " Miss the forest, for the trees" or something like that...

It would have been received MUCH differently. What you posted has not hint of arrogance, preachiness, sanctimony, etc. etc.


But the point is, which the OP confirmed in a later post this thread, that there are only two ways to play this game:

1- his way
2- the wrong way


I think it's great that you can have 'power gamers,' casuals, lowbies, newbies, noobies, knewbies, wannabes, f2p, VIP, what-have-you, all playing the same game, and all enjoying it on some level.


I don't like it when people start dictating 'how the game is supposed to be played' and then follow up with absurd statements like 'you may not want to believe me, but it's the TRUTH."

[PopeJual]

But the point is, which the OP confirmed in a later post this thread, that there are only two ways to play this game:

1- his way
2- the wrong way

I think you're reading more into this than is really there.

Here's an example of how two people could have a difference of opinion:

One person takes EWP: Khopesh
Another person takes EWP: Bastard Sword because he thinks Khopeshes are lame and is willing to give up some DPS to avoid using a weapon he hates.

Here's an example of how one person is right and the other person is a moron:

One person dies in a trap and then moves out of the trap before clicking "yes" on his Raise Dead box.
Another person clicks "yes" while still in the trap and dies again immediately. And then clicks "yes" again inside the trap a second time so that he has three deaths because he is too stupid to move out of the trap.

You may not want to believe me, but it's the truth: accepting a Raise Dead more than once while still inside a trap is just plain stupid. Leaving the trap to accept the Raise Dead and then immidiately running back into the trap is also stupid.


I apoligize for my elitist attitude and I am now ready to receive my fair and balanced punishment for the obviously arrogant, preachy and sanctimonious post that I have placed upon this forum.

[Postumus]

First and foremost, I think where things go south is when a "helpful" vet thinks they are helping a newb by giving them advice when they never asked for it. If they did, then by all means give them what they asked for. Otherwise, keep your thoughts to yourself. Nobody really likes unsolicited advice.

Second, "Know your way", "Zerg", "Have voice/sound" and other various comments in LFMs actually deter any newbie from joining those groups. The whole gist of that is if you are new we do not want you. How's that for a welcoming party for new players? And if you do get a newb joining that group, most likely he is a n00b disguised in newbie clothes.

Just saying you need 400+ hp doesn't really make me understand WHY I need it. I have not yet experienced what you've experienced. I do not yet understand. I will however tuck that bit of knowledge away and keep it in mind of course, based on YOUR expertise and knowledge. And when my experience leads me to the same conclusions that your advice was, well then I now UNDERSTAND!

Fourth "Builds". Well, I just had a little discussion going on my guild's forum relating to this. While min-maxing is probably everybody's ultimate goal with at least ONE character, if not all. Who really wants to intentionally gimp their builds? Well except for those having fun with GIMPs. I have a GIMP too. Gotta say I learned more from that build than most of my others! LOL!




Really nice post. Wish I could have worded my thoughts as coherently and diplomatically.


Another point that keeps getting brushed aside is that maybe some of us new players WANT to learn things on our own?


When long time players keep railing about how this class or that class is gimped or not viable at end game, then it tends to ruin the enjoyment of discovery for new players. Why even try that class, race, spell, weapon?


It's 10X worse when old timers go a step further and criticize you for trying that class, race, spell, build b/c they've been there ahead of you and it didn't work for them, so you shouldn't even try it.


Part of the fun of this game is that I get to try things like a dwarven wizard or a drow monk, or whatever the hell I can imagine. I get to try, and I get to fail or succeed on my own. If I want advice, I look in the forums, or web pages, or ask in game. But, ultimately, I pay for the this game with my time and dollars to entertain myself, not you.


I appreciate, and enjoy, many of the aspects of group play, and I do my best to contribute to the PUGs I participate in. But if I don't meet your expectations of what you consider good game play, then DON'T PUG WITH ME.


If you are a person who is routinely disappointed by PUGs, because people don't gear up the way they should, play the way they should, listen to you they way they should, THEN DON'T PUG WITH PEOPLE YOU DON'T KNOW.


I would think as a long term player, especially the way people keep referring to their blacklists in these forums, that you would have a guild or friends list that you would PUG with exclusively so you won't be disappointed.


But if you persist in demanding the rest of the player population conform to your style, regardless how efficient it may be for you, and you still join PUGs with anonymous players, then get used to disappointment.

[Aranticus]

But the point is, which the OP confirmed in a later post this thread, that there are only two ways to play this game:

1- his way
2- the wrong way

I don't like it when people start dictating 'how the game is supposed to be played' and then follow up with absurd statements like 'you may not want to believe me, but it's the TRUTH."

and again you fail to comprehend that is did not tell others how to play. i'll telling them, if you join a group. you follow the leader. failure to adapt to the leader leads to a lot of unhappiness. if i put up a byoh group. you do not join if you have no way to heals yourself. if you put up a no zerg group, i respect that and if i join, i wont zerg. simple as that. it is people like you who fails to see this distinction and insist on playing your own way in someone elses group. this is the problem that creates the divide between the newbie and the vet.

to sum up your post

if its my group, i choose who i take in, i'll take that 18rgr/1rog/1mnk, i'll take that 17clr/2mnk/1rog, i'll take that 18wiz/2rog but i wont take the 8bbn/6clr/6wiz. if its my group, i say no optionals, you jolly well listen, understand and follow. you die in the optional or miss out the end chest, its not really my problem

you may not want to believe me, but this is the TRUTH

[Postumus]

And don't tell me i don't have to run with you!




You don't have to run with me.


You have complete control over whom you play with.


You don't have to run with ANYONE you don't know. If you have certain expectations of other players, like you listed, then you should do some vetting before joining a group. No one has any obligation to conform to your (or anyone else's) style of play just to make your gaming experience more enjoyable.


That's why guilds, friends lists, this forum, and family members exist: there are numerous ways for you to form up a group of like-minded players rather than risk disappointment with anonymous people.


So this argument about how I have to adopt your style of play b/c someday you might be in the same PUG I am in just doesn't fly.

[Postumus]

and again you fail to comprehend that is did not tell others how to play.




Actually your original post is nothing but a list of telling people how to play starting with this laughable statement:

"many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first."


But to be fair, you contradict yourself numerous times and finally end your manifesto with this statement:

"in summary, i'm not saying you cant enjoy the game. you sure can but do it with like minded players. if you are going to run the endgame stuff with the vets/powergamers, be prepared to raise your game to a whole new level. "


I think that first statement is just completely disconnected from reality. Maybe you meant to phrase that differently.


But I don't disagree with that last statement.



if its my group, i choose who i take in, i'll take that 18rgr/1rog/1mnk, i'll take that 17clr/2mnk/1rog, i'll take that 18wiz/2rog but i wont take the 8bbn/6clr/6wiz. if its my group, i say no optionals, you jolly well listen, understand and follow. you die in the optional or miss out the end chest, its not really my problem

Absolutely. I completely agree with you here.

[nanobot1994]

Awesome guide/intro to DDO thing. Also, welcome back :D. Don't think i was around when you left, did read your guides and your good-bye thread.

As a new player, let me just list some random pieces of info in no particular order:

- Fort is important, it doesn't seem like its even working at low lvs (before GH) when all it does is a 25% chance to save you maybe 3 damage, but the first time you run an alt through without fort through GH, you'll find out just how huge it is.

- Pots are important, just made my first char that actually had all the gear planned out from 1 to 14 (yeah, not much, all I could afford at the time :D) and a full complement of pots (100 haste, 100 bark, Shield of faith for the low lvs, CSW, etc.), first time you run through Vale practically soloing the place, you see just how much more fun the game is.

- Haggle-bard is nice, this along with a shared bank, would make you maybe an extra 10k plat or more a week. The bard doesn't have to be very high lv, just a lv4 straight off the boat would be fine (Human is better than drow despite the -2, the skill boost makes up)

- Don't PuG quests you cant solo. This, maybe just be the most important thing Ive learned. I'm sure I wont be do it on a melee, but I'm managing just fine following this policy on my casters.

- Re-roll the second you see a flaw, flaws in the char itself just get magnified by lack of gear and the general level progression.

[Postumus]

It works quite well in PnP, possibly better than in DDO, no matter whether the DM is an optimizer or not.

Of course, if you make an 18 str 15 dex 16 con fighter in PnP, you will suck just because you chose "fighter" as your class, not because of your stats.


/rollseyes

Here we go again Aspenor... unfortunately, anyone who actually ROLE PLAYS PnP knows your statement is incorrect.


(Don't make me link to the thread where your uber-wiz kept killing himself, his allies, and his familiar because of your poor decisions).

[Aranticus]

Actually your original post is nothing but a list of telling people how to play starting with this laughable statement:

"many people have the wrong concept that ddo is a game and must therefore be fun first."

its laughable because you keep picking on specifics without looking at the context of the OP. the title read "my expectations of a new player". i'm telling people what to expect in MY groups and those with similar mentality with me

yes i still stand by my statement. my fun in ddo is not the same as their fun in ddo. when people try to apply their standards of "fun" into my groups, the divide begins


But to be fair, you contradict yourself numerous times and finally end your manifesto with this statement:

"in summary, i'm not saying you cant enjoy the game. you sure can but do it with like minded players. if you are going to run the endgame stuff with the vets/powergamers, be prepared to raise your game to a whole new level. "

I think that first statement is just completely disconnected from reality. Maybe you meant to phrase that differently.

you are the one who is disconnected from reality, perhaps you have not run anything in the endgame yet? let me recount 2 raids i led

raid 1: 150 hp wiz joins my group. has no fort. within 5s into the raid, died from being sneezed on by the boss who he agros by polar raying it. cleric rezzes the wiz. wiz demands to be buffed, only to die in traps. another call for rez is out and wiz dies 10s later from a combined assault from 2 orthons. i call out to healers no one is to rez him again and leave him dead. 1 healer did not listen and rezzed him. in all the wiz died 9 times in a raid which took us approx 18 mins. the healer who rezzed him complained that this raid took too much resources and ask the party to compensate him

raid 2: 200 hp sorc joins my group. again no fort. in part 3 of the raid, he role is to stone orthons but instead he chooses to nuke them. this draws the agro of the orthons which promptly kill him. raid boss gained 25% hp and we tell him to just stone the trash. he doesnt listen, dies again. we left him dead, complete the raid but end up with the healers using at least 10 pots each. when the chest opened up and raid loot dropped, sorc demanded that he be given the ring (+cha ring) which had dropped for 1 cleric. cleric says hes going to keep it and the sorc gets angry and ranted about how much he contributed to the raid. cleric told him he used 10 pots and asked what the sorc contributed besides dying and griefing the raid

[nanobot1994]

/rollseyes

Here we go again Aspenor... unfortunately, anyone who actually ROLE PLAYS PnP knows your statement is incorrect.


(Don't make me link to the thread where your uber-wiz kept killing yourself, your allies, and your familiar with poor decisions).

His uber-wiz was a lv9? lv7? Too early in the chars life to judge it.

About role-play, what if 'roleplaying' a char meant it sacrifices the chars actual usefulness. If you want an example, met a lv13 pally/rogue earlier today on my lowbie, it was 10 rogue, 3 pally. Apparently it was a rogue that got taught of his wrong-doings or something along those lines. Yes I did end up carrying the role player through the quest, not before he ran up to a group of mobs, evidently failed a diplo roll (or thats what he told us anyhow), and cost the party 10% xp. The quest was crucible, the first group of mobs too... why must lemmings be so much faster than everyone else?

My point is, roleplay gets in the way of actual effectiveness, the role players you're referring to and probably much less useful than a caster of the same lv. Same thing applies to DDO, read the above, I know I wont take another roleplayer into my groups again.

While i do not agree with his posts opening line, the rest of the post is true. If YOU join THEIR groups, you should be able to play on the same level, if you cant, depending on the type of group either, tell them and ask for help, or just apologize and leave. If you join one of my LFMs that says 'Zerg, doing xyz' me and the rest of the group expect you to either wait at the entrance, or keep up and not die. Ill make sure that when I join a LFM that states 'No zergers, slow pace, doing xyz' or something along those lines. Ill be following the party's expectation i.e go slow, stay with the group.

Why is following the LFM's rules so hard..?

[urusaikuneyaro]

the reverse can be said, this thread is to illustrate to the new players what goes on in the minds of many vet players. 1 or 2 bad experiences with said player will lead to this player being put on the list. many players, me including have also put entire guilds on the list because of repeatly bad experiences with their members. and thus is the purpose of this thread

While you make many good points, I hope to see that what you expect from new players also applies to vets.

Because I'm always amazed the leniency certain players get because they're from a certain guild or have been playing for years. I'm talking falling off the stairs in ToD (majority of the party wanted to recall and regroup); leading/participating an lfm to the entrance of VoD/HoX to realise you're on timer; joining a group, telling how awesome you are, zerg off of and die; claiming ToD is bugged and that you got banished with yr boots on (while in reality you used yr madstone boots); forgetting your anchoring boots in yr bank (while you're designated tank);
refusing rogues in yr party because they're 'useless'; starting up Shroud runs lvl 18-20 when you yourself are lvl 14; etcetera. Every one of those stories would be a perfect 'PUGs suck', 'I hate noobs' thread, but they're all vet stories.

For every five noobs running around without fortification, there's a vet screwing up. But for some reason everybody's lenient, patient and forgiving when it comes to the vet. I've seen vets pull **** that would get any noob on yr 'friends list'.

Some people are just too stupid to live, regardless of their experience in the game.

[Postumus]

My point is, roleplay gets in the way of actual effectiveness, the role players you're referring to and probably much less useful than a caster of the same lv.


That must be why they're called EPGs not RP... oh wait! :P

[Postumus]

its laughable because you keep picking on specifics without looking at the context of the OP.


Actually I've already made my comments on your overall message AND the specific messages therein.


You may not agree with my comments, but they are the truth.

[nanobot1994]

That must be why they're called EPGs not RP... oh wait! :P

No clue what you're saying here, acronyms are only useful when everyone in the conversation knows what you're saying.

Plus, don't see how that disagrees with the rest of my post. Either you can be 'elitist' and not accept that kind of person into your groups, or you can accept them at a cost to your own fun. Exactly what the 'vets' are doing, they don't feel like dragging noobs through, the same way you don't want to drag people through things at the cost to your enjoyment.

EDIT - Taking quotes out of context doesnt add much to a thread.

[DANTEIL]

you are the one who is disconnected from reality, perhaps you have not run anything in the endgame yet? let me recount 2 raids i led

raid 1: 150 hp wiz joins my group. has no fort. within 5s into the raid, died from being sneezed on by the boss who he agros by polar raying it. cleric rezzes the wiz. wiz demands to be buffed, only to die in traps. another call for rez is out and wiz dies 10s later from a combined assault from 2 orthons. i call out to healers no one is to rez him again and leave him dead. 1 healer did not listen and rezzed him. in all the wiz died 9 times in a raid which took us approx 18 mins. the healer who rezzed him complained that this raid took too much resources and ask the party to compensate him

raid 2: 200 hp sorc joins my group. again no fort. in part 3 of the raid, he role is to stone orthons but instead he chooses to nuke them. this draws the agro of the orthons which promptly kill him. raid boss gained 25% hp and we tell him to just stone the trash. he doesnt listen, dies again. we left him dead, complete the raid but end up with the healers using at least 10 pots each. when the chest opened up and raid loot dropped, sorc demanded that he be given the ring (+cha ring) which had dropped for 1 cleric. cleric says hes going to keep it and the sorc gets angry and ranted about how much he contributed to the raid. cleric told him he used 10 pots and asked what the sorc contributed besides dying and griefing the raid

I'm not sure that the second example is really helping you make your point. Case 2 seems like a clearcut case of Jerkwad Player Type #22, who could either be new or a longtime player. I agree that this is not good raid behavior, but that's an entirely separate issue. This behavior could happen at almost any level of the game.

Case 1 is more relevant, mostly because it appears that the player has not adequately geared/built his character to contribute, and was probably a bit in over his head.

[wolflordnexus]

like i said, i'm honest about my feelings, i do not mince my words. in case you missed it, this thread is not a rant

Whatever you say every time you could kick a new player you did. Paint it however you want to.


your brush is big too. what i've observed is more than this 1 or 2 people. its actually quite a huge percentage

I'm sorry I just cant honestly believe that people that want to fail are anything but a tiny percentage. I believe there are many that do fail I doubt very seriously that was there intention.




the reverse can be said, this thread is to illustrate to the new players what goes on in the minds of many vet players. 1 or 2 bad experiences with said player will lead to this player being put on the list. many players, me including have also put entire guilds on the list because of repeatly bad experiences with their members. and thus is the purpose of this thread

And that would have been a great opening post there is no unnecessary arrogance or anything condescending about that statement. No one likes to waste time we all get it I have a far different tolerance myself but my list is also always growing. Generally I only list the real ass hats but if you can't produce results I will remember you and likely will not group with you for quite a while I figure were at 2 different levels and grouping together will not be fun for either of us but that player may well be doing fine in a few months but again I am not years into the game.


like i said, your world is very different. my raids fill quick, sometimes without pugs. that 1 or 2 new players can create a huge impact

My raids also fill quick with pugs because I have a reputation for being a good raid leader many times I see the same faces and even then I communicate the way It is going to be done I don't care if you have done it 3 or 100 times you get the same info. I also see a lot of new people. those people almost always thank me for the experience and comment on the communication.



you really only need remove curse, lesser restore, some heal pots. most other effects can be overcomed with immunity items. a lot of plat can also be earned if you turn in your collectables and selling them while keeping the more valuable ones for yourself

Agreed this is a far more reasonable expectation. You have to realize though with the number of things you need to know in this game collectibles will often not be top on the list of things people have any real knowledge on.


(1) do not confuse a newb with a noob. i'll give newbs the benefit of doubt, noobs can be erased off the face of this world for all i care. (2) many new players take their time running all the optionals, checking breakables, etc. and if you read my OP, you just talked about joining a zerg group

NO I didn't talk about joining a zerg group I talked about Vets that always seem to join the new players group and precede to complete the quest for them I don't usually join groups when I started the first thing I made sure to learn was how to build my own.


this statement just shows how little you know about ddo. at the lower levels, unless its elite or solo, a party using teamwork can have little resource use

Honestly this statement is the truth for a player on their first toon that knew con wasn't a dump stat the first time you run MP on elite with your first toon in a no heal group you are going to eat every pot you picked up on the way there.



there are many places to get such items, the definitive loot thread is perhaps the best thread in the forums as it shows players where to get them

It's simply going to take a while for a new player to acquire the gear that you feel they should have I was running vale content well before I ever got any of the weapons you listed. and none of those have ever dropped for me until I forked out the plat for the ones I already had


if the newbie has the plat to buy the items but not pots, kinda conflicting right?

You are not going to seriously try to stand by this statement are you

(1) these items drop like water If you haven't vendor trashed at least 3 by 6th level the Loot gods hate you.
(2) If you are so unfortunate that you have not pulled these items they sell regularly on the AH for around 100 plat that is far less than a stack of 10 pots and much cheaper than stacks of 100 that many carry.
(3) as you level Items with useful properties such as false life tend to be much cheaper if an immunity is stacked on it as well.



there are a few brokers. find out which one is in the area where your local plat farmers are running. the brokers there tend to be full of unexpected stuff

We do live in different worlds as I've said before I learned about the brokers early on and I have seen 1 useful weapons on there not counting caster items . Armors and accessories is a totally different story you can find lots of good Items on the brokers weapons don't tend to be there though.



working as a guild the least anyone could do is to help the new guildie by outfitting at least 1 toon. i'm pretty sure any guild could do that unless its a new guild. even then, players can trade among themselves. unfortunately, many guilds are not doing that. i'd go even further and say guilds should at least train their members in terms of play skill and knowledge

I absolutely agree guilds should be taking far more of an active role in a new players game. Most new players end up in new guilds though as established guilds tend to take on established players.


in the opposite perspective, the 1st toon i rolled was based on what would work in pnp. it failed miserably

I can agree that many people don't play the game the same way I do and a bit of research goes a long way but most people simply aren't going to do that research. I doubt you did either when you first started.


nope, in ddo 1 player can drag 5 others in a quest. most raids only require 3-5 people actually doing anything. a lot of players think that getting to 20 is a big accomplishment. its not. ddo now is way to easy

After repeating the same or similar tasks many times of course it's easy. That does not mean the game is to easy it means you have gotten to good at it have to much gear and have to much insight to be challenged by it. I find most of the game pretty easy now that I'm all tricked out myself but it wasn't that easy just a few months ago. I remember hating running with the devils because I felt my barbarian was a total gimp in there. Now that I have a DR breaker for it though I regularly go back to curb stomp it for a small sense of vengeance.



actually no. in fact if you read the forums, there are actually a lot of newer players that are playing this card and calling the vets elitist. truth is many of them cannot handle it when its played on them

this thread does not call out anyone. its a reflection of what many vets are feeling. vets are being called elitist because we put up byoh runs, etc. if a new player can put up a non zerg run, cant vets do the same? if you cant keep up in a zerg run, the zerger is called an elitist?

Agreed the only LFM's that really bother me are the Know it, don't be a noob, don't suck ect. bile. I understand them sometime you just want to get it done I get it, and they have every right to post them but I have every right to feel they are a jerk because of the unnecessary tone.

This goes both ways though when the vets don't respect the new players LFM which happens all the time and the new player is called out as a clueless noob who wants to hold his breath in lava and smell dragon farts.


as many posters have correctly seen my intent, too often new players bite more than they chew and choke. this can be simply avoided by going slow, looking for like minded players until they are comfortable enough with the game. do not always blame others for the experience, there are times when the pedicament is brought on by themselves

Once again this is a completely reasonable statement I don't understand why you feel the need to be insulting and inflammatory when you make it though. You say you don't mince your words but you do. You cram your OP full of unnecessary jabs that have honestly 0 to do with your underlying intent and expect everyone to just sit back and take it while pondering your deeper meaning.

[Aranticus]

Because I'm always amazed the leniency certain players get because they're from a certain guild or have been playing for years. I'm talking falling off the stairs in ToD (majority of the party wanted to recall and regroup);

people have reformed for me, yes true story, i have my share of boo boo and still get haunted to this day. i've have done the same for others too unless we are on a schedule ie servers are going up for maintenance


leading/participating an lfm to the entrance of VoD/HoX to realise you're on timer;

the impact of this is not a big. most of time we just laugh it off


joining a group, telling how awesome you are, zerg off of and die;

seen this happen alot but these are not the true vets


claiming ToD is bugged and that you got banished with yr boots on (while in reality you used yr madstone boots); forgetting your anchoring boots in yr bank (while you're designated tank);

we never know this


refusing rogues in yr party because they're 'useless';

context is important here. many rogues i see are useless. 10 str 10 con types. but most vets have no problems with well build rogues in the party. those that do not, vet isnt the word to describe them


starting up Shroud runs lvl 18-20 when you yourself are lvl 14;

i hate this too. or those that lfm "experienced only, need guide"


For every five noobs running around without fortification, there's a vet screwing up. But for some reason everybody's lenient, patient and forgiving when it comes to the vet. I've seen vets pull **** that would get any noob on yr 'friends list'.

Some people are just too stupid to live, regardless of their experience in the game.

the correct term to use here is "noobs", these do not belong anywhere

[sorsorsor]

I applaud your efforts in this post and your level of self-awareness. I apperciate the nature of the dilemma. The power level, cool loot, and abilities only come at the cost of grinding that is built into the mechanics of the game. Now that the format has changed to free to play, the not so immersed or addicted “casual player” frustrates that grind.

Having capped and rolled since the start on multiple accounts and servers, I have learned a lot and educated many. However, Is there any way that turbine can reward veteran players on there “2486274th time through a dungeon” that isn’t based on a CR multiplier or grind based loot system in light of there new free-to -play format.

In that vein of though I can share with you two stories:

#1 My very first DDO toon was a completely gimped rouge. I was a new player and therefore shunned groups because I knew nothing of the game. I was getting worked over by the iron defender at the end of the miller’s debt numerous times. In that process I learned more about tactics, tried more tricks, and even discovered some now nerfed exploits. I was challenged and therefore it was much more enjoyable than my first time killing a red dragon, epic loot, etc… Later I created a two-handed/wf/fighter around a paralyzing maul. It was empowering to grind favor for then new and exciting ( fill-in-the-blank ) but ultimately felt fleeting and unrewarding.

#2 I had the experience of grinding a multiple TR build and running random pugs late at night, I unknowingly joined into a pug consisting of characters from one of my other Guilds, but not the Guild on that particular Alt. I was running multiple clients open on different accounts (a carry over from days before hirelings) and was listing to their/my Guild’s officer chat on the headset of the other client. After pulling my weight through: normal, normal, and normal. They dropped group and reformed to exclude me from the hard/elite runs. I was identified as “the bard” and treated fairly in party chat. However in officer chat it was a completely different story. The offending person was a guildie, which I had invited and taught. That particular individual was lost in his rush to complete for the 2486275th time.

I have not logged on since.

Is there any way that turbine can reward veteran players on there “2486274th time through a dungeon” that isn’t based on a CR multiplier or a grind based loot system?
Completely random mobs, traps, and maps maybe? -After all who really listens to the quest dialogue after the 3rd time through any new and once enjoyable content. LOTRO's option to command a mob and smite players? Wizardy: the return of wernda for its role reversal? COH's use of mentoring to obviate the now nerfed xp-debit system?

Lastly, my sincerest admiration go out to the perma-death community and the few who refuse to wear any equipment, for making their own challenge and enjoying it at the same time. I wish I hadn’t been so greedy for the last six years (yeah beta) and tried it myself.

[Aranticus]

I'm not sure that the second example is really helping you make your point. Case 2 seems like a clearcut case of Jerkwad Player Type #22, who could either be new or a longtime player. I agree that this is not good raid behavior, but that's an entirely separate issue. This behavior could happen at almost any level of the game.

Case 1 is more relevant, mostly because it appears that the player has not adequately geared/built his character to contribute, and was probably a bit in over his head.

case 2 is more than just jerkwad. throughout the raid he wasnt contributing at all. his idea of fun was to dance a player in part 1 causing him to be put out of commision. in part 2 he did ok. in part 3 if he really wanted to grief, he would have started the fight early by entering it and activating horoth before the rest got early

how about this, i was in genesis today. 4 melees 1 sorc 1 healer. healer, ranger, me (pally) buffed the party with resists. we asked the sorc for blur, sorc says nada. asked for displace, again sorc doesnt have any. so we moved on not saying to much. get to the a large fight asked for web or dance. nothing got caught. asked if sorc has heighten, again nada. someone asked what kind of sorc is he. sorc replies "dps sorc"

in subsequent fights, tossed down firewalls and tries to dps 5k hp orthons down with polar ray and cone of cold. in ambushes, what he would do was to stand 10' away from others. after he left, everyone in the party asked "how did he get to this level?"

[Aranticus]

Once again this is a completely reasonable statement I don't understand why you feel the need to be insulting and inflammatory when you make it though. You say you don't mince your words but you do. You cram your OP full of unnecessary jabs that have honestly 0 to do with your underlying intent and expect everyone to just sit back and take it while pondering your deeper meaning.

and again no, what these jabs you are referring to are really what i am feeling much as a lot of others in my circle do too. u may find it insulting, others find it condescending but yet many others identify with it as what is really on their minds. see the point there?

[Aranticus]

I applaud your efforts in this post and your level of self-awareness. I apperciate the nature of the dilemma. The power level, cool loot, and abilities only come at the cost of grinding that is built into the mechanics of the game. Now that the format has changed to free to play, the not so immersed or addicted “casual player” frustrates that grind.

Having capped and rolled since the start on multiple accounts and servers, I have learned a lot and educated many. However, Is there any way that turbine can reward veteran players on there “2486274th time through a dungeon” that isn’t based on a CR multiplier or grind based loot system in light of there new free-to -play format.

In that vein of though I can share with you two stories:

#1 My very first DDO toon was a completely gimped rouge. I was a new player and therefore shunned groups because I knew nothing of the game. I was getting worked over by the iron defender at the end of the miller’s debt numerous times. In that process I learned more about tactics, tried more tricks, and even discovered some now nerfed exploits. I was challenged and therefore it was much more enjoyable than my first time killing a red dragon, epic loot, etc… Later I created a two-handed/wf/fighter around a paralyzing maul. It was empowering to grind favor for then new and exciting ( fill-in-the-blank ) but ultimately felt fleeting and unrewarding.

#2 I had the experience of grinding a multiple TR build and running random pugs late at night, I unknowingly joined into a pug consisting of characters from one of my other Guilds, but not the Guild on that particular Alt. I was running multiple clients open on different accounts (a carry over from days before hirelings) and was listing to their/my Guild’s officer chat on the headset of the other client. After pulling my weight through: normal, normal, and normal. They dropped group and reformed to exclude me from the hard/elite runs. I was identified as “the bard” and treated fairly in party chat. However in officer chat it was a completely different story. The offending person was a guildie, which I had invited and taught. That particular individual was lost in his rush to complete for the 2486275th time.

I have not logged on since.

Is there any way that turbine can reward veteran players on there “2486274th time through a dungeon” that isn’t based on a CR multiplier or a grind based loot system?
Completely random mobs, traps, and maps maybe? -After all who really listens to the quest dialogue after the 3rd time through any new and once enjoyable content. LOTRO's option to command a mob and smite players? Wizardy: the return of wernda for its role reversal? COH's use of mentoring to obviate the now nerfed xp-debit system?

Lastly, my sincerest admiration go out to the perma-death community and the few who refuse to wear any equipment, for making their own challenge and enjoying it at the same time. I wish I hadn’t been so greedy for the last six years (yeah beta) and tried it myself.

we have been asking for random maps or at least random trap and mob spawn but it seems that this is even too much. such a dungeon would make is less predictable and thus allow people to work more as a group. perhaps the time when you see most people working together is when new high level content is released. people work together to try beat it. after 1 week or so, its back to same old

[ManchesterLad]

this is a wrong perception. they are having fun, in their own way. their fun isnt about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. a powergamer's interest is in acquiring the best gear possible and gunning for seemingly impossible feats of soloing, speed, etc. a newbie may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counterspell, etc fun. that has long since been removed from the minds of many experienced players. and the reason is they do not need to smell the flowers along the path for the 2486274th time


Seriously, why are "vets" grouping with levelers then? If they're upset with questing with new players, perhaps they should just hang out with other level 20s.

Oh, that's right, they don't like to play with like kind, who's just as picky and crabby about them! :eek:

[sephiroth1084]

we have been asking for random maps or at least random trap and mob spawn but it seems that this is even too much. such a dungeon would make is less predictable and thus allow people to work more as a group. perhaps the time when you see most people working together is when new high level content is released. people work together to try beat it. after 1 week or so, its back to same old
We've been getting some of this, though the quests aren't completely random and patterns emerge: Prey, Invasion, Bastion, Monastery... Hell, even Wiz King has random trap location, the problem is that all the traps appear in certain types of areas and are rather predictable.



Longest runon sentence in history! lol

Seriously, why are "vets" grouping with levelers then? If they're upset with questing with new players, perhaps they should just hang out with other level 20s.

Oh, that's right, they don't like to play with like kind, who's just as picky and crabby about them! :eek:
-1

We want to group with new people, because meeting new people is fun. Leveling new toons, or TR'ed toons is fun (or kinda fun). Leveling with people who apparently have made zero effort to learn anything about the game is not fun.

And we'd probably level with our own "kind" more often if we were all working on the same cycle of leveling. I know that I've had guildies TR a week before me, and a week after me, with each group catching up to, passing, and being caught up to in turn in cycles.

Stop ******** all over a post of someone who has been incredibly honest with and helpful to the community.

[edit] And it wasn't a run-on sentence because there was punctuation. It was merely all lower case, and with some shoddy punctuation, but was easily legible.

[ManchesterLad]

Stop ******** all over a post of someone who has been incredibly honest with and helpful to the community.

/reported

One player should never have that much power to dictate content, regardless of status.

[Aranticus]

/reported

One player should never have that much power to dictate content, regardless of status.

you are reporting him for? the sensored word? when you yourself commited an infractable offense?

cool

[ManchesterLad]

you are reporting him for? the sensored word? when you yourself commited an infractable offense?

cool

Kewl, now read from a MMO veteran...

Veterans should know some basics:

1. Trolling for flames = /report (they know better).
2. If a veteran wants perfection in pugs, they need to run with players they already know.
3. If a veteran doesn't run with their "perfect" mix, it's no one else's fault but their own (they should already know group makeups, levels required, etc.).

Bottomline: it comes down to personal responsibility.

New players will only learn the ropes from trial and error, just like veterans learned it. Expecting perfection from anyone from day one is not only a fool's errand, it will never teach a new player from mistakes. That's how people learn.

[Wrendd]

(This post turned out much longer than I expected, I tried to break it up a bit, but there might be a small amount of "Wall of Text", proceed at your own risk)

I consider myself a "newly minted vet". Meaning that I believe that I have recently attained "vet" status in the eyes of most of the people I see in raids/epics and regular quests. When I get frequent requests to tank VoD/ToD/HoX or any quest, sometimes from people I do not know I consider this a sign that I have a decent reputation as a WF fighter. I say this just to establish where I am coming from.

A lot of vets/old timers have expectations of conduct/play. You will see this in just about every MMO out there. A lot of newer players do not agree with the expectations of the "vets". This causes friction. It is going to happen. Many vets should be more patient with the "noobs" and many "noobs" should be a little more receptive of the offered advice.

Someone above noted that unsolicited advice is not welcome, but if a vet sees a newer player (or any player for that matter) doing something "very badly" it is the nature of the vet to speak up. The tone of the "advice" will make all the difference at this point. And the way the advice is recieved will contribute to the general tone of the conversation.

I understand and applaud the new players that want to "learn for themselves". It is an admirable goal and something I wish more people on the on-line community would do...but if that learning experience is detrimental to the group than it needs to be addressed. Sooner rather than later.

If the person trying out a new build (that is considered sub-optimal) is causing party wipes or mostly causing havoc in an otherwise smooth run then that new player is directly effecting the enjoyment of the rest of the group. The offered advice MAY be somewhat harsh, but tempers may be high due to the current situation. The vets in DDO have "been there and done that", and while many will have a remarkable level of patience with new players, there is a limit. When advice is offered, whether solicited or not, it should be listened to.

If the advice is prefaced with "Listen up you stupid noob" then it can be ignored. When listening to the advice offered, ASK QUESTIONS. Asking a question about what is said shows that you were listening and that you want to hear more. If someone tells you "Get a Minos and a Min2" and you do not know what they are talking about, ask! When they say "A Minos Legens helm for the Toughness and Fort and the Mineral 2 weapon for a Boss Beater", ask them WHY you need "toughness" and "Fort". They will then explain why Heavy Fortification is important and that the +20HP from the Toughness (on an item) stacks with your existing HP including the toughness feat. They will also tell you why you want a Mineral2 weapon and what it actually does, and will most likely link one for you to look at.

Part of the current problem is newer players getting up to lvl 20 without much experience grouping with "vets". They have spent their entire DDO career teaming with other relative new-comers and feel that once they have hit lvl 20 and gotten some raid gear (often not the best gear for their toon, but it is SHINY) they think that they have become a "vet" and that their toon is much more powerful than it actually is. Compared to the people they have been playing with, they may be correct. But when compared to a 3xTR with more Greensteel than they can carry on their toon, more epic ingredients than you can shake a festival twig at and 3-4 years experience at DDO they are no where near the power level they think they are. Couple that with a lack of experience in the raids/tougher quests and the expectations of a "vet" who is already surly... and you have complaints on the forum. The vet is upset at the lvl 20 who does not know what he is doing, and the new lvl 20 is upset because he was told how to play his toon (or was insulted).

Newer players, and vets alike, need to relax a bit. If you do not want to join up with a noob, keep putting up LFMs with "Be Experienced", "BYOH", "Zerg run" and all that. Hopefully the new guys will avoid you as much as you want to avoid them. But be prepared for the new player that thinks he is ready to advance to the "vet" level. Give them the guidance that they need and they might surprise you.

[Aranticus]

Kewl, now read from a MMO veteran...

Veterans should know some basics:

1. Trolling for flames = /report (they know better).
2. If a veteran wants perfection in pugs, they need to run with players they already know.
3. If a veteran doesn't run with their "perfect" mix, it's no one else's fault but their own (they should already know group makeups, levels required, etc.).

Bottomline: it comes down to personal responsibility.

New players will only learn the ropes from trial and error, just like veterans learned it. Expecting perfection from anyone from day one is not only a fool's errand, it will never teach a new player from mistakes. That's how people learn.

based on this i should add to my op


6. mmo vet

mmo vets =/ ddo vets

[ManchesterLad]

Someone above noted that unsolicited advice is not welcome, but if a vet sees a newer player (or any player for that matter) doing something "very badly" it is the nature of the vet to speak up. The tone of the "advice" will make all the difference at this point. And the way the advice is recieved will contribute to the general tone of the conversation.

Add to it, it also matters of the tone that the "advice" is said.

New players tend to be hounded by a lot of "advice", usually in a demeaning manner, which is why they often refuse to listen to anyone until they know the player.

Too often the "vet" is ranting, screaming, hollering and has the patience of a 2 year-old. The result is, naturally, not to take any advice from him. Too many reasons why not too.

The best advice comes not from someone "offering" it on the spot, it's advice often learned after some fight (when the fight is fresh in people's minds, and people are still there to chit chat for a few minutes). There you can pick up the info about class/boss/mob mechanics, usually in a more friendly manner. A lot of the best players are modest, and to get them to "open up" with some kernals of wisdom is in a more relaxed setting (none better than a successful boss fight).

Having spent years in EQ2 as a mentor (a novel concept yet to be found in other MMOs), I learned the best way end-game players can help new players is to host groups/raids, taking them there and pointing out details. If you concentrate on the skills, not the person, new players will soak up the advice like sponges, as now it's not personal. Need a good personality, patience and time, but if you're like myself who likes meeting new players (who look at a game still as a mystery and surprise, not hardened farmers wanting to finish a run in 10 minutes flat), it's a perfect match.

[Enir]

Great discussion!!
I've been a casual player for about 3 years. I ran CO6 with a PUG of newbies yesterday. They took their time, did all the optionals; things I hadn't done since Festivalt 2008! It was great fun! The 'cool' factor was still there as the party kept saying 'WOW!' and 'Hey, look at this!' I had a totally enjoyable time; even as the only person who had run the chain before.

Look and listen are the best pieces of advice; as has probably been said before.
Knowing that DDO is not PnP D&D 4th edition is the second best; again, as has been said before.
Reading the forums, DDOwiki, etc the third best advice.

[Lleren]

Too often the "vet" is ranting, screaming, hollering and has the patience of a 2 year-old. The result is, naturally, not to take any advice from him. Too many reasons why not too.


That is not a Vet.
That has never been a Vet
That has always been a Noob
Noob does not equal new player
Noob equals <censored>

An Everquest Vet should know this...

[Wrendd]

Add to it, it also matters of the tone that the "advice" is said.

New players tend to be hounded by a lot of "advice", usually in a demeaning manner, which is why they often refuse to listen to anyone until they know the player.

Too often the "vet" is ranting, screaming, hollering and has the patience of a 2 year-old. The result is, naturally, not to take any advice from him. Too many reasons why not too.

The best advice comes not from someone "offering" it on the spot, it's advice often learned after some fight (when the fight is fresh in people's minds, and people are still there to chit chat for a few minutes). There you can pick up the info about class/boss/mob mechanics, usually in a more friendly manner. A lot of the best players are modest, and to get them to "open up" with some kernals of wisdom is in a more relaxed setting (none better than a successful boss fight).

Having spent years in EQ2 as a mentor (a novel concept yet to be found in other MMOs), I learned the best way end-game players can help new players is to host groups/raids, taking them there and pointing out details. If you concentrate on the skills, not the person, new players will soak up the advice like sponges, as now it's not personal. Need a good personality, patience and time, but if you're like myself who likes meeting new players (who look at a game still as a mystery and surprise, not hardened farmers wanting to finish a run in 10 minutes flat), it's a perfect match.

I agree with Lleren, that is not a vet. That person should be ignored. Even if what they say is good advice, no one should waste time putting up with verbal abuse.

But, I think that the majority of experienced players are NOT like this. I can not remember being in a group that had this type of behavior. I know it happens, but I feel that it is the exception rather than the rule. Of course the forums magnify this, as people are far more likely to come here and post a complaint than they are a "I ran with the nicest person EVAH!" thread. I know some people DO post positive experiences here, but I see far mor complaints than praise. Partly because the ones having the good time are still in the game and not venting here.

The OP tends to be a little blunt, especially to the typical American ear. I find that your typical American is more used to "sugar coating" what we want to say than the average European. Especially Germans. They tend to be blunt and outspoken (this is NOT a complaint, I love Germany and most of it's people, but even most of them will tell you that they are more direct than those of us on this side of the pond). When someone who is used to "saying it plainly" runs into a person who is used to hearing "polite criticism" there is a conflict. Neither person is wrong. It is a cultural difference that should be respected by BOTH people. The American should be more forgiving to the "bluntness", and the other should at least *try* to tone it down a bit for the typically more easily offended American. Both sides should attempt to be respectful of the other. There is no place for knee-jerk reactions. And getting offended by they manner of someones speach is silly (IMO). (the OP is, I believe, Swedish. I am not comparing him to the Germans in any way, I simply have experience with German outspokeness and have little experience with the Swedish. It was used only as an example)

I think that too many people (all over the world) are FAR to sensitive when someone takes a contrary stance to their point of view. They feel that any disagreement is a personal attack or at least a minor insult. That is not a constructive attitude. Try to understand where the other person is coming from, attempt to reach an acceptable level of conversation that inhibits neither persons ability to express their point. It might take work, but everyone will be better for it.

To be blunt myself, have a thicker skin, do not get so offended by what others say. If someone says something you disagree with, respond politely but firmly and attempt to find common ground with the person speaking. Once you have a basis for the conversation, THEN you can go after each other as much as you want. But do it with ACTUAL RESPECT.

[Visty]

(the OP is, I believe, Swedish.

close

hes a "yellow-tainted, rice-eating, something" .... couldnt find the correct phrase^^

[PopeJual]

Longest runon sentence in history! lol

Seriously, why are "vets" grouping with levelers then? If they're upset with questing with new players, perhaps they should just hang out with other level 20s.

Oh, that's right, they don't like to play with like kind, who's just as picky and crabby about them! :eek:

Thanks for the troll. I see you've gotten a few bites already. Drama++.

[Aranticus]

close

hes a "yellow-tainted, rice-eating, something" .... couldnt find the correct phrase^^

yellow-skinned, slant-eye, steak eating bastard

gawd! something so simple you cant get it right? :D

[Visty]

yellow-skinned, slant-eye, rice eating bastard

gawd! something so simple you cant get it right? :D

well, the forum search is crappy, not my fault :p

[donnala]

I gather we are talking about:

1) Old player versus the new player and their style of play.

2) How best to communicate with each other so no one is offended.

3) Teaching the new player how to play the game.

[If I am wrong, please correct me in these assumptions]

I wonder if there is a way to resolve these issues or if they should be. The bottom line is that playing a game should be fun even know fun is defined differently to many people. At least that is how I see it.

A couple of examples: I was given advice on how to swim and I tried it. Now I can swim.

Yesterday I was in game and asked for assistance and once again I was ignored. I expected that though. I failed my quest.

So I had fun learning a new thing to do and yet I was frustrated because I could not finish a quest.

I ask how a system could be put in place to help the new player with issues without offending them [me] and making us think twice if we want to continue to play? For me at least I want to have fun during my limited game play time.

Thank you,

Donnala

[Wrendd]

Donnala, I have seen several posts by you and have been impressed with your attitude and willingness (and eagerness) to learn. I can safely say that you are ready to try grouping in the lower level quests. If you maintain the mature and reasonable attitude that you have displayed in every post of yours that I recall, you will do well and make quite a few friends. If you are on the Khyber server please let me know.

I am currently unable to play DDO (no personal laptop yet in Iraq, but that changes soon) but would be more than happy to help you out in any way that I could. But if you are on Khyber now I would love to give you a few names of my firends that are also very good at helping the new people along. We have always taken then stance that every new person we help grow into the game makes our stable group of friends stronger. It is an attitude that has worked well for us and I believe that it will continue to do so.

You do not appear to be one of the "noobs" that people complain about. Those are the people that refuse to listen to any advice and when they make a mistake try to blame others for it instead of taking responsibility for the mistake. That is something I just do not understand. This is a GAME, no mistake is that big a deal. We all make them, that is how vets came to be. We made mistakes, learned from them, asked for advice and used that advice along with our own experience to get better at the game. All that most people really want to hear when you mess up is a simple "my bad, that was not very smart". I have seen VERY experienced people make simple stupid mistakes. The difference is that once you know the person you know that they are a solid and reliable player, mistakes are laughed about and make for a great way to friendly harass them in the future :)

[Aranticus]

I gather we are talking about:

1) Old player versus the new player and their style of play.

2) How best to communicate with each other so no one is offended.

3) Teaching the new player how to play the game.

[If I am wrong, please correct me in these assumptions]

I wonder if there is a way to resolve these issues or if they should be. The bottom line is that playing a game should be fun even know fun is defined differently to many people. At least that is how I see it.

A couple of examples: I was given advice on how to swim and I tried it. Now I can swim.

Yesterday I was in game and asked for assistance and once again I was ignored. I expected that though. I failed my quest.

So I had fun learning a new thing to do and yet I was frustrated because I could not finish a quest.

I ask how a system could be put in place to help the new player with issues without offending them [me] and making us think twice if we want to continue to play? For me at least I want to have fun during my limited game play time.

Thank you,

Donnala

roll up a toon on khyber, i'll show u the ropes

[donnala]

Thank you for your kind words Wrendd. There are enough conflicts in real life so I think while playing a game I would rather not have conflicts, just time away from stresses of life.

Aranticus I want to thank you for your kind offer but I believe our play styles might differ greatly.

To all: Happy Gaming.

Donnala

[Aranticus]

Thank you for your kind words Wrendd. There are enough conflicts in real life so I think while playing a game I would rather not have conflicts, just time away from stresses of life.

Aranticus I want to thank you for your kind offer but I believe our play styles might differ greatly.

To all: Happy Gaming.

Donnala

not at all different. like i said in this thread, when i post an lfm, i have my expectations. showing you the ropes is a totally different thing, i'll set my pace to yours and i wont be there to lead you thru everything, just basic stuff like combat, spell casting so that you can have a scaffold for you to build your own experience on. once that is done, my work is finished, you are on your own but if you have questions, they will still be entertained

[wolflordnexus]

you are reporting him for? the sensored word? when you yourself commited an infractable offense?

cool

I think it was more the#17 offense but I'd have to say reporting that post It isn't very constructive to the discussion regardless.

[wolflordnexus]

well, the forum search is crappy, not my fault :p

seriously what is up with the forum search It never turns up anything remotely close to what your looking for.:P

[ManchesterLad]

I agree with Lleren, that is not a vet. That person should be ignored. Even if what they say is good advice, no one should waste time putting up with verbal abuse.

But, I think that the majority of experienced players are NOT like this. I can not remember being in a group that had this type of behavior. I know it happens, but I feel that it is the exception rather than the rule. Of course the forums magnify this, as people are far more likely to come here and post a complaint than they are a "I ran with the nicest person EVAH!" thread. I know some people DO post positive experiences here, but I see far mor complaints than praise. Partly because the ones having the good time are still in the game and not venting here.

A vet is an experienced player. It has no other definition. Games are full of them, some good, some bad.

My experience within various MMOs is too many veterans wear their status on their sleeve. It's harder to find vets who have "sweet" tempers and manners that can be actual educators (they've become hardened, so hardened to become apathetic trolls). Watched too many become drama queens and forum trolls, thinking because of their status they're some demi-god -- making a mockery of their status itself.

Also, the reason forums have a higher noise to signal ratio is it's a dumping ground for ingame frustration. It's how too many can vent/rant and get the junk out to continue playing. It's the game's psychiatrist in a way.

Which is why too many in various MMOs advise two things: turn off the main public chat channel, and don't post on the official forums (crawling with trolls). Less seen, more fun the game will become, as now the drama can actually be the game not the people.

BTW, attempts to troll me will be ignored or reported. So don't bother.

[Clay]

bunch of whining excuses

I am sorry. What were the excuses again as to why a player can't be competently equipped by lvl 10? There is absolutely no reason why a new player cannot be so equipped except he blew all his money on the AH on stuff he didn't really need. The game provides almost anything you need, be it holy, ghost touch, remove clickies or whatever.

I have been new, have been in the situation where I could not buy many pots, have had to re-enter to heal up. I have done permadeath, starting from scratch, and have started up on a new server. All of what you are doing is trying to make excuses for showing up for battle without the proper gear.

Do you show up without a sword? No. So why would you show up without ANY method to raise an incapped Clr, when the aid clickie is available for free from a super easy Korthos quest? Why would you show up without anyway to patch yourself up?

Many many times it has been said, in guides in suggestions as to what basic gear all players should have non of which is un-attainable for a new player.

[Aranticus]

snip

much as you try to argue your way out with you experience in OTHER MMOs, i'd like to ask you, how was you ingame experience in THIS MMO

the feedback that me and many others get ingame is quite different to what you have been describing. ddo has a very unique community. not many other MMOs are able to languish for more than 1 yr without updates or community presenced by game employees

ps: many of us here are also MMO vets, i've started since UO. do ask who else is a MMO vet before if you want to play this card

[Clay]

actually no. in fact if you read the forums, there are actually a lot of newer players that are playing this card and calling the vets elitist. truth is many of them cannot handle it when its played on them
this thread does not call out anyone. its a reflection of what many vets are feeling. vets are being called elitist because we put up byoh runs, etc. if a new player can put up a non zerg run, cant vets do the same? if you cant keep up in a zerg run, the zerger is called an elitist?

as many posters have correctly seen my intent, too often new players bite more than they chew and choke. this can be simply avoided by going slow, looking for like minded players until they are comfortable enough with the game. do not always blame others for the experience, there are times when the pedicament is brought on by themselves

nicely said.

[Clay]

Thank you for your kind words Wrendd. There are enough conflicts in real life so I think while playing a game I would rather not have conflicts, just time away from stresses of life.

Aranticus I want to thank you for your kind offer but I believe our play styles might differ greatly.

To all: Happy Gaming.

Donnala

Way to pre-judge there. Kind of an anti-elitism going on? Anyone who feels that they can point a finger at Aranticus' so-called "elitism" and yet decline an honest offer of help. What is the worst that can happen? If he is rude and elitist you can drop group. And just what if he actually is helpful? Ever consider that? Or is it just more fun claim you know him and his negativity and can feel superior because you are not like those elitist jerks who are so judgmental with new players.

I have taken over a program that Mentors new players (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=230838). It is quickly apparent to any who looks that Aranticus signed up to volunteer his time to help. And yet you feel justified in prejudging? Kinda sad really. So it's a no-win for established vet players. There are rude players that have been around and rude new players. This is not about a new vs vet player.

I can tell you that not enough new players make use of the many tools that abound to help out new players. And MOST vets that I know and run with are genuinely helpful and patient with new players. If we put up an lfm that states byoh, or fast and get a tell saying hey, I am new, blah blah blah then we have the choice. If we are short on time and wanted to get it done fast, we can say: I have little time today but would be happy to help you tomorrow. Or we can say, sure, we will be moving fast but I will help you along. That is entirely different from joining zoning in and promptly dieing. The second one is as disrespectful as a jerk zerging an "all optionals" group.

Most players that have taken me up on my offer to help are quite appreciative and tell me that they, in turn, become leaders in pugs they join and soon get many guild invites. And yet, it suits many of you better to just sit back, expect to be happily carried to completion and blame the vets for not being like your mother.

Donnala I challenge you to take Aranticus up on his offer--THEN you can judge him.

[noinfo]

Thank you for your kind words Wrendd. There are enough conflicts in real life so I think while playing a game I would rather not have conflicts, just time away from stresses of life.

Aranticus I want to thank you for your kind offer but I believe our play styles might differ greatly.

To all: Happy Gaming.

Donnala

Actually you might want to reconsider that. If Aranticus has offered to run with you, it is a guarantee that he will run to your speed and actually show you things that will make your experience much, much better. He has done this for countless players and I often wonder at his patience, having been one of them.

[Lleren]

A vet is an experienced player. It has no other definition. Games are full of them, some good, some bad.



Once again you are including Noob style behaviour in your perception of veterans. Those are not the players you should be looking to.

The biggest noob I ever met had "been playing since beta" and I would not of left children in the room if this guy was on Vent, or anywhere near him if I met him in real life. This player, though having time in, was not a Veteran. This player was a classic example of Noob, including the screaming tantrums, generally acting like an upset toddler, begging, whining about how it was not his fault, it was them, or lag, or a glitch, nothing was his responsibility, not even finding out what his combat arts did.

By your definition that guy is as qualified to teach as say, Aranticus.
By my definition that guy is a Noob, and I know to avoid him.

Time played does not make one a Veteran. Understanding of the game makes one a Veteran. Folks eventually recognise this either in game or on forums, often your Guilds forums are the first to know.

[Mrkita]

Donnala I challenge you to take Aranticus up on his offer--THEN you can judge him.

Take it easy there mate, From what I can tell reading through the posts, Donnala has never pointed the finger at anyone, never judged any of the players and has always been polite to all. (unless I have missed a contradicting post)

Pull your head back in, Aranticus offered to help and Donnala has POLITELY declined due to the belief of different play styles, It's got nothing to do with Aranticus being/not being an elitist (I don't know you Aranticus, so no judging there). It's more to do with Donnala not feeling comfortable about going around with other players.

You seem to be the one giving out bad names here.

[Mithran]

Take it easy there mate, From what I can tell reading through the posts, Donnala has never pointed the finger at anyone, never judged any of the players and has always been polite to all. (unless I have missed a contradicting post)

Pull your head back in, Aranticus offered to help and Donnala has POLITELY declined due to the belief of different play styles, It's got nothing to do with Aranticus being/not being an elitist (I don't know you Aranticus, so no judging there). It's more to do with Donnala not feeling comfortable about going around with other players.

You seem to be the one giving out bad names here.

What he was addressing (as I read the post) was what you termed 'the belief of different play styles,' and not 'giving out bad names.' He challenged him to take Aranticus up on his offer and THEN judge his playing style.

I think you just misunderstood. I'm inclined to think that Aranticus' offer was misunderstood, too. Any new player who has played with Aranticus might take issue with what I would term his Eastern understanding of the role of authority, but when I started making allowances for his use of English, I've found him to be generous, honest, insightful, and helpful.

Contrast this to another player, who told me his 20 Fighter 'is just a better roll,' after which he proceeded to term me a 'liar' in /Advice (a rhetorical tactic he relies on frequently, having used the term on many long-term veterans who have demonstrated the highest personal integrity, over the years), compared to my Paladin, Anguirel. He then 'wish you luck on your bad rolls.'

[Postumus]

and again no, what these jabs you are referring to are really what i am feeling much as a lot of others in my circle do too. u may find it insulting, others find it condescending but yet many others identify with it as what is really on their minds. see the point there?


Yes. The point is that you know you are being condescending and insulting, but don't care.

[Aranticus]

Yes. The point is that you know you are being condescending and insulting, but don't care.

you find it condescending and insulting (and a few others), not me. this argument about how you feel is moot, title reads "MY expectations" not "YOUR expectations"

now if you have anything to contribute feel free to do so like so many others who have chipped in their experiences. looking into your posting history, that would be so much more helpful than the constant derailing of threads

[Clay]

Take it easy there mate, From what I can tell reading through the posts, Donnala has never pointed the finger at anyone, never judged any of the players and has always been polite to all. (unless I have missed a contradicting post)

Pull your head back in, Aranticus offered to help and Donnala has POLITELY declined due to the belief of different play styles, It's got nothing to do with Aranticus being/not being an elitist (I don't know you Aranticus, so no judging there). It's more to do with Donnala not feeling comfortable about going around with other players.

You seem to be the one giving out bad names here.

No you take it easy. I in no way accuse Donnala of pointing a finger... but there is no doubt that he is passing judgement on Aranticus. Polite? Oh yes. Judgmentental it remains. Donnala has shown himself to be a positive contributor to the boards, and eager to learn. It is for that reason that his reason to not take Aranticus up is so ... short-sighted.

Though polite it is saying that Aranticus will not change his style of play from his prefered to the appropriate level for the mentoree. So, I felt inclined to pipe up: I am in the same situation.

Yes, I am a powergamer. Yes, I like to go fast, am independant and self sufficient. No, I don't usually do optionals. No, I don't wait to fill a party. BUT I CAN adapt my play style to suit whatever occasion.

Donnala is underestimating Aranticus willingness to help, and, in the end, missing out on an oportunity to learn, and possibly make a friend.

[Zlingerdark]

It is almost comical how you people twist things around to YOUR way of thinking. Quite contradictory to the OP too. So Aranticus offers a total new player a chance at his wisdom, and the player politely refuses that aid based on his/her assumptions of what this ENTIRE thread revealed. I don't blame Donnala for refusing. It is clear from the last 2 post, one from CLAY and one from Aranticus himself that specifically points to the original post title!

It clearly states, "MY EXPECTATIONS OF A NEW PLAYER".

No where in that entire post did it say anything other than Aranticus' view on what a new player "ought" to do and "must" have. While good advice mostly, but it failed his real intent as he clearly indicated many posts later. The real intent was for people to join the proper groups that best fits their play style. Don't be a n00b and join a flower sniffing LFM if you are gonna zerg it, and vice versa. Makes perfect sense to me. I dare say it ain't just all new players mucking up the waters.

Now tell me after really reading all the ****, that a new player now is a moron or jerk because they refuse the offer of help, because in their opinion they will not be compatible? Perhaps you need to reread what you wrote in response to what was clearly a polite refusal (who care what the reason was!) of an experienced player. I think after reading through 100+ post on this topic and the OP and other vets opinions of the new player Donnala was more that qualified to make a "judgment" on whether that offer was something he/she wanted. Again you think every offer of advice or "help" is wanted by every player.

Funny how you were quick to jump all over that new player and call them judgmental when you really hardly know that player... great way to welcome new players into the game... :rolleyes:


No you take it easy. I in no way accuse Donnala of pointing a finger... but there is no doubt that he is passing judgement on Aranticus. Polite? Oh yes. Judgmentental it remains. Donnala has shown himself to be a positive contributor to the boards, and eager to learn. It is for that reason that his reason to not take Aranticus up is so ... short-sighted.

Though polite it is saying that Aranticus will not change his style of play from his prefered to the appropriate level for the mentoree. So, I felt inclined to pipe up: I am in the same situation.

Yes, I am a powergamer. Yes, I like to go fast, am independant and self sufficient. No, I don't usually do optionals. No, I don't wait to fill a party. BUT I CAN adapt my play style to suit whatever occasion.

Donnala is underestimating Aranticus willingness to help, and, in the end, missing out on an oportunity to learn, and possibly make a friend.

[stainer]

Actually you might want to reconsider that. If Aranticus has offered to run with you, it is a guarantee that he will run to your speed and actually show you things that will make your experience much, much better. He has done this for countless players and I often wonder at his patience, having been one of them.

I will verify that if he offers to run with you, he will run at your speed. I will also verify that he will improve your game play.

[PopeJual]

Funny how you were quick to jump all over that new player and call them judgmental when you really hardly know that player... great way to welcome new players into the game... :rolleyes:

I hardly know you. Because of that, the only thing that I have available to form an opinion of you is your post. If you say something to make me "jump all over you", then it's because of what you said in your post.

I don't think that Donnala was being rude when he said that he didn't think that Aranticus would run at her speed/accomodate her play style, but he was making an incorrect assumption.

People jumped in to correct his assumption. Clay also jumped in to call him out for making an assumption judging Aranticus when she hardly knew that player. I hope that you gave Clay a +rep for that since that kind of post is apparently something that you approve of.


Edit: Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with Donnala. I think that Donnala's assumption was reasonable based on what he has probably seen in game and on the forums. It's just apparently not a correct assumption as verified by the folks who jumped in after that comment.

[Zlingerdark]

Not wanting to turn this into yet another debate of semantics... I have nothing against any of the posters on this forum or in this thread. Aranticus I only know by perusing these forums. I'll take his word for it that his offer was sincere.

But as to assumptions made... I can only ask, other than the volume of posts made, and the direct quotes from this thread in particular, what else would Donnala have to go on? The offering player, who clearly states in the original post what he expects of a new player, Donnala has nothing but that to fall back on, and thus in his/her (I wish I could ascertain your gender!) assumption would be entirely correct based on that post alone.

Now I understand that anybody can adjust their play-style as needed, but then that entirely contradicts the original post, which clearly states the OPs thoughts about what he feels about new players. I can completely understand why Donnala would turn down the offer. Regardless if it was correct or not, Aranticus has come off on that post as being quite adamant on what he expects. So if he offered Donnala a turotial/mentorship I can see why he/she would be highly apprehensive in accepting that offer. No offense to Aranticus, or any of the many helpful vets, but I hope you can understand why that offer was refuse based on what was posted here.

In addition, it is commendable that folks would defend Aranticus' offer as a genuine article. But that may still make a new player wobbly at the knees to be striding around with such a player, whom they know in their minds that said player so far above them in skill, knowledge and whatever. It's kind of like throwing a kindergardener in high school and expecting them to be okay with that. Perhaps Donnala prefers to try to muck it out on his own, and then ask for help as needed.

I know that is how I play. I solo a lot, because I want to learn the game on my own (mostly) and more importantly at my own pace. I would fear that I would be boring Aranticus (or any other helpful vet) to death, and that would be far worse to me than going solo.

Just let's not assume every offer made is always is always to be accepted. There may have been more than one reason for that refusal, beside the stated one. But the last few post kind of hit me as "if you don't accept that offer, you are a fool." Maybe so, but at least it was his choice to make. At least don't try and make him feel like he HAD to accept or else!


I hardly know you. Because of that, the only thing that I have available to form an opinion of you is your post. If you say something to make me "jump all over you", then it's because of what you said in your post.

I don't think that Donnala was being rude when he said that he didn't think that Aranticus would run at her speed/accomodate her play style, but he was making an incorrect assumption.

People jumped in to correct his assumption. Clay also jumped in to call him out for making an assumption judging Aranticus when she hardly knew that player. I hope that you gave Clay a +rep for that since that kind of post is apparently something that you approve of.


Edit: Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with Donnala. I think that Donnala's assumption was reasonable based on what he has probably seen in game and on the forums. It's just apparently not a correct assumption as verified by the folks who jumped in after that comment.

[PopeJual]

But the last few post kind of hit me as "if you don't accept that offer, you are a fool."

"You infer" does not equal "I imply".


Maybe so, but at least it was his choice to make. At least don't try and make him feel like he HAD to accept or else!

I recall no threats of any kind in this entire thread. On the issue of making someone feel as if they HAVE to accept someone's offer, I believe that Howard Roark said it best when he said "Independence is the only gauge of human virtue and value. What a man is and makes of himself; not what he has or hasn't done for others. There is no substitute for personal dignity."

People on this forum can convince me that I want to do something. No one on this forum can convince me that I must do something.

[donnala]

I must deeply apologize. We had a family pet pass away and I have not played or really been reading the forums. My heart is not in it right now.

As for accepting help to play this game I am new to these types of games and I personally am not sure if I am good enough to play with anyone at the moment.

If I have offended anyone, again I apologize for being unkind to anyone who wished to help me.

Aranticus I meant to send you a private message thanking you for your kind offer but I got distracted. I know you only wanted to help me learn the game. To anyone else here again I hope I have not been rude in anyway.

On a personal note this makes me think to stop posting on the forums. I do not wish to upset anybody.

Most Sincerely,

Donnala

[Aranticus]

no offense taken but you should continue your presences here to be an example of what a new player should be, inquisitive, eager to learn. Do consider my offer seriously, maybe after your griefing. Having a mentor will really smoothen the learning curve of ddo. Meanwhile, you can read my guides in ddowiki


I must deeply apologize. We had a family pet pass away and I have not played or really been reading the forums. My heart is not in it right now.

As for accepting help to play this game I am new to these types of games and I personally am not sure if I am good enough to play with anyone at the moment.

If I have offended anyone, again I apologize for being unkind to anyone who wished to help me.

Aranticus I meant to send you a private message thanking you for your kind offer but I got distracted. I know you only wanted to help me learn the game. To anyone else here again I hope I have not been rude in anyway.

On a personal note this makes me think to stop posting on the forums. I do not wish to upset anybody.

Most Sincerely,

Donnala

[Clay]

I must deeply apologize. We had a family pet pass away and I have not played or really been reading the forums. My heart is not in it right now.

As for accepting help to play this game I am new to these types of games and I personally am not sure if I am good enough to play with anyone at the moment.

If I have offended anyone, again I apologize for being unkind to anyone who wished to help me.

Aranticus I meant to send you a private message thanking you for your kind offer but I got distracted. I know you only wanted to help me learn the game. To anyone else here again I hope I have not been rude in anyway.

On a personal note this makes me think to stop posting on the forums. I do not wish to upset anybody.

Most Sincerely,

Donnala
Donnala, don't stop posting on the boards. You have nothing to apologize for. You have demonstrated all of the qualities of a very positive addition to the game and the boards.

Many in this thread want to turn the OP into vet vs new player rant when it isn't. There is a gap between new players and old. We vets have made our stumbles, skinned our knees and come out from the learning curve. Many of us were here from the beginning and learned as the game grew. So, when a new player hits my LFM there will be a big difference of expectations.

It is that gap the OP is trying to bridge. And yet, many of this thread's detractors would rather paint Aranticus in a negative light and look only for the worst. They quickly judge him to be an elitist powergamer. Yet, looking at the vast amount of material he has added here and at DDOWiki he clearly cares about the game and enabling others experiences.

So, if a new player joins his groups having read his OP they will be on the same page and can enjoy the experience that much better. No, you don't have to join his groups. Yes you can learn on your own. My first month or so I mostly solo'd wanting to learn on my own. Then I met an "elitist powergamer" who patiently took me thru a Tangleroot run and then a CO6. He changed the way I played and made the game a whole lot more fun. I still remember the runs 4+ years later. So I took up the challenge to pay it forward.

It looks there are 2 contributors to this thread: those that have not run with the OP and yet label him X and Y expecting the worst and those that did and enjoyed and learned from the experience.

[Clay]

Oops

[BlackRage]

Great post with great points. Well said, thanks!


Not criticising, and I usually ignore grammar/punctuation stuff, but I think you put a lot of effort into writing this thing and even took the effort to lay it out, so... I'd love to be able to read it, but I just can't. Just saying that you'll probably get more readers if you punctuate it.
This is valid criticism.


We are obviously playing two completely different games here. People like me are still in the "wow, this is a pretty cool game!" state of mind, and people like you are in the "if you aren't playing the right way (read: my way), you are ruining the game" mode.


I actually forced myself to read the OP and tried to empathize with him, but I don't. Not the slightest bit. Basically you've fallen victim to the mindset that every generation (in any environment) falls into: "darn punks have no idea what it used to be like! The whole world's going to hell in a hand basket!"


The reason I don't empathize with the OP is this: you don't have to play with new players. No one is forcing any of you to play with new players. You're so old skool that you should have plenty of your 'remember when' compadres to run with and shouldn't need to group with a generation of players you don't respect or even like.


One thing I have noticed on these forums: the whining from the "I've-been-playing-this-game-since..." players about 'teh newbs' is becoming insufferable. It's time to move on guys. Wallowing in virtual misery over an MMO is so 2008.
This is not. Unfortunately, we will be saddled with your kind forever more now - and worse you even play on my server :(

Your opening paragraph shows your clear lack of understanding. It has nothing to do with now and then/right way and wrong way - and everything to do with a willingness to learn. Even _I_ am still impressed with the game at times, yet I never go around mouthing off when I am receiving instruction on a new quest.

Heavy Fort? Yes this is mandatory - and listening to someone explain that they think otherwise after getting one-shotted AGAIN, is annoying to say the least. :rolleyes:

Froobs - they are ****ing everywhere! :eek:

[DasLurch]

actually i can punctuate well, but



i'm just to lazy to do it right and its not an infractable offense to post something without proper spelling, grammer or punctuation (note punctuation falls under the grammer category as it is part of sentence structure). however, its is an offense under the turbine offense to call me out on it. should i hit the report button? :rolleyes:

And this is why he plays on Khyber...

[k0ukla]

I will verify that if he offers to run with you, he will run at your speed. I will also verify that he will improve your game play.

I too can verify for his patience and kindness for a player new to a quest/raid he may only type but he types well, quick and is extremely thorough we had a new kiter in TOD this week and although yes the kiter did die (and no, nobody else died in there) he took the extra time to show him how he kites in there... you don't see ppl doing that everyday

[JDCrowell]

If I had a toon on Khyber, I'd want to run with him too.

Me and my guildies all started together on Ghallanda and had to figure everything out on our own.
Thanks to a few of us researching the forums, we learned a lot. We still make a ton of mistakes, but we aren't really powergamers either. Just friends having fun and enjoying our time. We are all starting to run some of the higher level raids and we tend to go in blind unless we get a good group of Vets to run with us.
This makes for some messy completions and painful to watch sometimes (like that Cowboy game on Sunday night... :/ )
Heck, I've lesser reincarnated once and greater reincarnated once and I think I'm about to GR one last time..lol.

[Aranticus]

I too can verify for his patience and kindness for a player new to a quest/raid he may only type but he types well, quick and is extremely thorough we had a new kiter in TOD this week and although yes the kiter did die (and no, nobody else died in there) he took the extra time to show him how he kites in there... you don't see ppl doing that everyday

i can use mic, but usually baby is sleeping beside me. plus....






















i'm more inclined to curse and swear while on air :p

[Kaelain]

I, like a few others I've read, was originally put off by this thread's original post. I changed my mind part of the way in. I have been playing for about a week and originally started playing because of my PnP experience. I love no other rpg like DnD. I will probably never be a powergamer, I play my characters according to themes or what I have in my mind as a story. If that causes me to fail then so be it, that's my idea of fun. I have played with some experienced players who were unbelievably helpful and I appreciate it. I'm a casual player, I play to relax after work. At no point will I get offended if I get a cold shoulder for not being a powergamer or such. I have no problems adjusting my play accordingly as long as it still stays a relaxing game for me.

Thank you for this thread and I will keep these expectations in mind for future grouping. :)

[Aranticus]

updated the OP with points 6 and 7 ;)

[donnala]

Aranticus if I may ask, what is the most important thing you like to teach a new player when they are learning to play this game?

I am in the process of reading newbie guide and I must say the learning curve is steep.

Thank you for your time.

Donnala

[Aranticus]

Aranticus if I may ask, what is the most important thing you like to teach a new player when they are learning to play this game?

I am in the process of reading newbie guide and I must say the learning curve is steep.

Thank you for your time.

Donnala

i teach players to be able to stand on their own feet and carry their weight. too many times i see players take it upon others to do the work. to use an example, i frequently give loot away by organising a hide and seek in marketplace

the objective to most is to get the loot but to me its more than that. smart players will use the social panel to see which instance i am and narrow down the search. hide and seek isnt about finding a person, its about being observant and using various skills. some even work in teams to find me and then distribute the loot later

now a bad/lazy/etc player will instead send me tells. let me write you some and illustrate to you my opinion

1. where are you = plain lazy and just want a short cut
2. can i buy that off you? = stupid enough to not be able to understand what i read
3. party invite = yeah smart ass, if i accepted that, it wouldnt be hide n seek
4. i'm in a quest, can you hold that until i'm done = oh! the world revolves around you
5. it must be a joke! who can be so kind? = god is kind enough to let you exist on this world

the next thing i will then do is to advice the players on certain helpful tools in playing their classes. i'll dicuss about fighting/casting styles, impact of stats, expectations of most players. i'd never say "you must do it this way" but rather "these are the options if you do it this and that way". its about empowerment and making informed decisions. only if you believe in your actions will you be able to sense fulfillment and have a sense of achievement. you play a game with others, your actions will impact others. however, you must also remember, you play this game because you play for yourself

[asphodeli]

Great OP from my fellow countryman. I help those who help themselves whenever possible, and those who don't help themselves...well...maybe next time when you decide to help yourself in-game. It depends on your definition of help.

[wolflordnexus]

Bunch of crybaby BS
Ohh look I can edit my posts to look crafty too sure if you know what the game is about it's very simple to make things work out for you Starting over isn't a problem when you know where everything drops, what every quest looks like, and what you need. If you had no problem equipping yourself with the things the op said you needed by level 10 the first time around you had one of a few things happen

1) someone gave you stuff
2) you got extremely lucky
3) You decided to take a forum course in DDO for about a month before even making a toon

Sure there are many helpful guides but

1) the forums navigate for ****
2) Who even reads the instructions to a video game there is always a tutorial isn't there.

The problem is the learning curve is steep you can get pretty far without actually learning much there needs to be more in game tools but honestly even that won't help you learn by doing and no amount of forum rage is going to change that.

[PopeJual]

The problem is the learning curve is steep you can get pretty far without actually learning much there needs to be more in game tools but honestly even that won't help you learn by doing and no amount of forum rage is going to change that.

This is probably true. If only there were occasional threads on the forum in the New Player Advice and Guidance subforum where veteran players gave advice and thoughts to new players. Maybe a thread where a thoughtful and articulate veteran gave his expectations of a new player would help with this problem.

[Mithran]

I'll preface this by saying that I've written the player I'll be referring to, offering him a Guest Pass to Necropolis and twenty Tapestries for a Minos Legens.

The project that is currently occupying most of my playing time is getting my first Barbarian to cap (Mormegil is now 16). Khyber has a real shortage of Gianthold runs since F2P, so I was getting desperate for a Gianthold Tor run for Mormegil, and joined a pug that had two casters, already. I hadn't run this on a thrice-daily basis since my Cleric finally pulled enough Blue Dragon Scales for his armor, but I've run it enough to know that not much had changed about it.

On two occasions in the run, I saw our Sorc go from full Health to *Ding*, so I asked him what his Health and Fortification were in Voice Chat. He responded in /Party:

"188 and +8." Internally, I rolled my eyes, and remained silent. Even so, I was incredulous, and looked up his build.

11
10
15
10
12
26

Fortification: 0

Health: 116

Level 16 Chaotic Good Elven Sorcerer.

For you new players though, that's pathetically low. If you happened to find a party willing to drag your soulstone through the rest of Gianthold Tor and went into the raid (it's almost always run Elite), you'd be killed and sent to the Penalty Box with the first cast of anti-gravity.

I held my tongue and wasn't critical of his build, but I'll infer that it's his first roll and that he is a kid. Nevertheless, this is the epitome of why veterans don't like to run with newer players.

[JDCrowell]

I remember when I first started this game. My first toon, which is on Sarlona, was a Fighter and I picked a DDO pre-planned path. I had never played D&D PnP, only have good knowledge of any RPG, and had absolutely no idea what I was doing.

In fact, it took me about 4 tries to finish MP in Korthos before I finally made my way to Stormreach. LOL

This toon is still active and is still intact from how I left him in all his noobish form. (I moved to Ghallanda to play with some friends who started playing before me. A Fighter with a longsword and a shield and I thought I was doing awesome when I pulled my first +1 Longsword.

I still make mistakes every day but I'm always learning and trying to teach others. It's ok to be new, just keep learning from your mistakes. (and use some common sense)

Just some examples:
I almost entered the Subterrane all alone when I was level 14 for example. SURE glad I asked for advice from a guild mate before doing that one..lol
First time in Reaver's Refuge today and I was TP'd there and went to leave but couldn't find the NPC to talk to.
Back on Korthos, I use to stare in amazement as to where that tunnel went above the crates in the Cannith Manufactuary. Even rolled a Rogue to try and figure this one out.

[GreatOwl]

Ohh look I can edit my posts to look crafty too sure if you know what the game is about it's very simple to make things work out for you Starting over isn't a problem when you know where everything drops, what every quest looks like, and what you need. If you had no problem equipping yourself with the things the op said you needed by level 10 the first time around you had one of a few things happen

1) someone gave you stuff
2) you got extremely lucky
3) You decided to take a forum course in DDO for about a month before even making a toon

Sure there are many helpful guides but

1) the forums navigate for ****
2) Who even reads the instructions to a video game there is always a tutorial isn't there.

The problem is the learning curve is steep you can get pretty far without actually learning much there needs to be more in game tools but honestly even that won't help you learn by doing and no amount of forum rage is going to change that.

Seriously, you are making it sound much harder than it is.

I’ve been playing this game for 6 months and still working on capping my first toon (1 rank away whooho!), I’m not an uber player, I’m not an MMO vet, I’m not a grinder in fact I’m nothing but a casual player, my character build is not the best/most optimized one by a long shot, yet by lvl 10 I was most certainly running around with:
Cure pots
Elemental resist pots, all kinds
Curse removal pots
Disease, blindness, and poison immunities items I had found in chests
Hvy fort necklace, from Relic of a Sovereign Past
Permanent FF item
Cure moderate wand gained by turning in collectibles to give to the party healer (almost 100% of the time)

Did I have everything I could possibly need? No. Did I have the best weapon for every situation? God no. But I could manage, I could avoid death, I could be of help to my party (sometimes more sometimes less).
Of course I was reading the forums and the wiki, but I certainly wasn’t spending hrs upon hrs doing so. Most of my time was spent in game, asking questions in parties, keeping my eyes open, and using my brain (when you see 9 out of 10 The Pit LFM asking for perma FF wouldn’t you think “uhm, for some reason that must be important”?) Sure, I was also given a few nice items/weapons, I remember each and every one of them they were all deeply appreciated, but if you think that’s an unusual occurrence you are partying with the wrong people.

All in all, you talk about a “steep” learning curve, that just isn’t true. Sure the game has a lot of complexities and “the top of the hill” is quite higher than the bottom, but the way there isn’t “steep” at all. You can steadily climb up on a nice curvy path (full of signs, written by the people who preceded you, pointing you in the right direction in case you get lost may I add) it will just take a while to get there. Now if people can’t be arsed to read a few posts, can’t be arsed to ask a few questions, can’t be arsed to use their brains AND pretend to be at the top of the hill in a couple weeks … well good luck to them.

[tinyelvis]

All day long the OP in this thread has been bothering me. I can't exactly put my finger on it, because I actually think that much of it is good and useful from a perspective-taking standpoint. I think that my discomfort has something to do with how I am perceiving the attitude or degree of arrogance in the way it is written, especially the first part about "perception."

Anyway, I decided to try to turn it around and use the same framing etc to write something from the other perspective. I hope that this is taken in the way that it is intended -- as my attempt to share some of the other side. I truly believe, though, that accommodating these kinds of differences will take some effort and movement from all sides, rather than putting the burden solely upon one group only. After writing this, I still don't know whether to be despairing or hopeful about whether this kind of issue can be resolved. I have increasingly been thinking about how some DDO players seem to be playing a different game than me (as a non powergamer). What I do know, however, is that there is a tremendously huge middle ground between the clueless annoying noob/newb and the know-it-all elite vet. The issue is whether segregation is really the answer, I guess.

=-=-=-=

1. perception
Many people have the idea that DDO is a game and must therefore be fun. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people must feel like their more basic needs like security and health are met before they can address higher-level needs like achievement, respect of and by others, and creativity and problem-solving. The needs of a casual player are very different from a powergamer. The needs of a new player are also different from a vet. A lot of powergamers think that newer players are short-sighted dilettantes who are only looking to have "fun."

This is a wrong perception. Many newer players are also interested in succeeding at the game, in their own way, given their limitations. Their fun is NOT about running lost in a quest, dropping into lava, and holding their breath or poking at the dragon's rear end waiting for an explosive fart. Who would find that fun? A newer player's interest is often about acquiring better gear and mastering the game well enough to improve their ability to achieve feats of soloing, speed, etc. While it is true that newer players may find that the slow exploration of a quest, with the rogue scouting ahead for traps and foes, the caster in the back preparing a counterspell, etc "fun," this does not prevent them from wanting to experience the game in other ways as well and certainly doesn't automatically put them in the easily-dismissed category of "flower-sniffers." The reality is that most players are probably in the middle -- trying to learn the game but without the knowledge or gear yet to really master the game the same way that many veteran players have. Yet, some veteran players treat play-style not as a continuum, but as a category: Anyone who does not 'max' the game (either in speed or gear or XX) is a flower-sniffer. This is unfair because it treats what often is a circumstance (lack of gear/experience) as a choice (a phantom "decision" to traipse merrily through dungeons).

2. build
It is true that newer players often misunderstand balance and min-maxing. It is often true, and understandable, that new players generally think of balance as something which allows them to meet new things head on and to be prepared by means of spreading out the abilities, and that min-maxing is something that implies the maxing of certain abilities at the expense of others. Newer players also probably don't realize right away that DDO is not a proportional game. However, some newer players will care about this, while others won't. Obviously, min-maxing is a spectacularly good way to "succeed" at DDO in higher levels, but it is not the only way to play the game -- even at high levels. What is important for newer players to understand is the ~logic~ behind choices in build and gear -- and why some choices (like high Con) are "obvious" while other choices may be just that: Choices. Once a newer player has a handle on what the options are, then they may decide (or not) to min-max as best they can. Deciding not to do so is not a moral failing, however. If grouping with someone who doesn't have what you perceive the 'optimal' build interferes with your own ability to get what you want out of the game, then by all means avoid that person/situation. But, beyond trying to explain why some choices may be counterproductive, don't belittle or somehow demean other individuals' selections of gear and builds in the process. Making people feel defensive about something they have spent time and effort on is generally not helpful.

3. attitude
Help! This is the best advice I can give any veteran player. Newer players greatly appreciate the many resources available that you didn't have when you were first starting out. If a new player is already on the forums, then assume that they want to learn. If you see people asking naive or "dumb" (but seemingly sincere) questions in the game, don't ignore them, refer them to the forums if you don't feel like answering their questions directly. (If they're jerks, you can ignore them.) During quests, do not hesitate to create an atmosphere where newer players can ask questions. Many newer players are hesitant to speak up because everyone else seemingly knows exactly what to do or are talking and laughing about other things and it seems noobish to interrupt to ask questions like "What does that lever/key/NPC do?" or "How do you kill that mob?" The higher the vet-to-new ratio in the quest/raid, the more true this is. Newer players may try to ask intelligent questions but sometimes they are just simply confused and/or overwhelmed. That does not mean that they are idiots or hopeless.

Don't freak out when someone admits that they are new. Like most everyone else, new players hope to achieve 100% success as much as possible, and if they are new, they will benefit immensely from timely, clear instructions. However, you must also know where you stand. If you are a veteran player, leading newer players through a quest/raid on hard or elite will potentially be challenging and may sometimes fail. Even if they have done the quest before, they won't have done it the same 3426136 times that you have, and things that seem obvious to you won't seem obvious to them. Creating an lfm with "in progress", "byoh," "be sufficient", "zerg run", "speed" is definitely good practice if you would like to warn less experienced players about your expectations. If you are the leader of such a group, it is okay to have high expectations for what other people will do. but even in zerg groups basic communication can go a long way. Inevitably, you will get people who join whose idea of 'self-sufficient' or 'zerg' will differ from yours. This doesn't mean that they are bad people. (Unless they are jerks. Luckily, the 'jerk' category cuts across the new/vet divide.)

Be humble. When telling people that a certain thing needs to be done, be prepared to explain why. Newer players don't have ESP, and generally are eager to learn strategies and game mechanics, especially since many quests/raid completion runs are quite established and usually have a best tried and tested method. They won't always have the gear/skill to smoothly accomplish those goals, but they want to contribute. Most importantly, it's about communication. If doing something differently could have an especially negative impact, let people know about this ahead of time. If that negative thing happens, chalk it up to part of the challenge of grouping with other people and take a moment to explain why that was negative. If someone seems resistant to your constructively-offered advice to get more than 150 HP at L20, then simply shrug your shoulders and walk away at least knowing that you tried. However, don't assume that all newer players are creating toons with 150 HP at L20 just to spite you. Not everyone in the game has the benefit of belonging to a top-flight established guild with lots of guildies to give solid advice. Sometimes it is indeed simple ignorance.


4. equipment
Some new players are on their first character and won't have a ton of plat saved up yet. Even if they are aware that status removal and healing pots are typically the least anyone should have, their resources for obtaining sufficient numbers of these may not always be the greatest. If they seem surprised that such pots might be necessary, then by all means explain this to them, but try to do this in a way that doesn't make them defensive. Some newer players, yes, will be jerks about wanting immediate curing, but that jerk could be anyone, not just someone new. Not every player has played a cleric and may not always be aware of the demands on healers. On the other hand, it's okay to let a newer player die. Death is often the best teacher. However, if they seem to be dying a lot, it's also helpful to take a moment to tell them that buying potions etc is a useful way to avoid some deaths. They may not listen to you, but at least you tried. But, most newer players, like anyone, would like to avoid dying! Helping them learn ways to avoid dying is a good thing for all concerned.

Gear wise, realize that newer players, especially those unfamiliar to D&D mechanics, often have no idea what is needed. If weapons such as a vorpal, smiter, disrupter, paralyser and a metalline of pure good/holy silver/metalline flametouched iron/etc are good for quests/raids, then let newer players know this, especially if something specific is needed for a particular quest. Explain what the advantages are. Explain DR on mobs, and help newer players learn which kind of DR is associated with which mob. You can refer them to ddowiki, of course, but often right there in the quest is a useful teachable moment. Again, newer players want to learn how to contribute. Heavy fortification is something else that is important to continue to explain, especially since it *prevents* a bad effect rather than *creates* a good one. Unlike damage bonuses, which produces obvious big numbers on mobs, it is harder for newer players to realize when gear is helping them avoid things, because the information isn't as readily apparent. Also, tell newer players what gear to look out for on the AH or as end rewards. A lot of the prefixes and suffixes on weapons look awesome but not all of them are good in reality, as you know. Newer players don't know this. Note: if you don't feel like explaining/teaching in a quest, then don't. That's fine. But, if that's the case, either don't group with newer players to begin with or be prepared to accept the fact that they may make mistakes that you can do nothing about. It happens.


5. PnP
Some players will come from a PnP background. This is both good and bad. While many of the weapons and mobs will be familiar to them, it won't be obvious at first that DDO is a whole new world, and that lots of things in PnP don't work the same way in DDO. This may require extra patience, especially when you see different players making the same false assumptions over and over. At the same time, some newer players won't care that you have played DDO since beta (many will, but some won't). That's just human nature. This doesn't mean that they don't want to learn the game, but rather that their game experience is going to be necessarily very different from what yours was. MMOs evolve, pure and simple. The "I walked uphill both ways" card is rarely taken positively.


In summary, this isn't to say that you can't continue to enjoy the game the way that you have until now. Of course you can, but if you adamantly want to preserve the purity of your ideal experience, then you might consider doing it only with people you already know to be like-minded players. However, if you *are* going to run endgame stuff with newer players (and I hope you do!), be prepared to take into account the fact that not everyone will have had the opportunity yet to raise their game to your level. This doesn't mean that they won't want to learn and try and improve. And while some of them will probably give up or fail or be annoying, not all of them will. Some will slowly over time grow and improve - but they won't do this overnight. After all, it took you 2-3-4 years to achieve your level of game experience and gear. Newer players have to deal with something that you never ever had to deal with in all your experience: A highly-visible cohort of powerful veteran experienced players who have mastered the most challenging parts of the game. It is natural that they would want to learn from you, but also natural to be frustrated at times by feeling excluded from easy access to that world. If you choose to not admit other players into your runs, then this is of course your right and your choice - you should have fun in the game that way that you feel is right. In fact, careful screening may be for the best if running with less experienced players makes you angry or upset or frustrated. But, don't be mistaken that this is anything other than a form of elitism. I'd like to think, however, that new players are not mutually exclusive with your kind of fun, at least not in the long run.

Wow, I have long wished that I could construct such a well worded benign critique as this. You even got rep'd from the OP. My pride and arrogance always steps in confounding my efforts. I had a boss once who could dish out concise biting critiques in such a similar way that you would actually thank him in the end as though you were complimented.

I am envious, you definitely have a rare gift.