Best Ranged build?!

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Elf Rogue18/Rgr1/caster1 Assassin III/AA?! Hmmm..... :cool:



Edit: maybe Brd 1 with a max perfom skill?

[sigtrent]

Doesn't tell us much... why do you think it would be best?

I'd think it would be hard to beat full ranger due to the end-cap ability (are there stacking limitations on it?). Sneak attack on a ranged build rarely works out well due to the really short distance where it applies.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Doesn't tell us much... why do you think it would be best?

I'd think it would be hard to beat full ranger due to the end-cap ability (are there stacking limitations on it?). Sneak attack on a ranged build rarely works out well due to the really short distance where it applies.

Assasin III vorpal effect works with ranged weapons. Add slayer arrows.
SA is just nice to have. SA does do a large amount of damage. But the Assassin III is what I'm going for.

[MrCow]

Assasin III vorpal effect works with ranged weapons. Add slayer arrows.
SA is just nice to have. SA does do a large amount of damage. But the Assassin III is what I'm going for.

Just remember, the Assassin III vorpal works only on a sneak attack (which means you have to be within 30 feet of the critter on a ranged weapon).

[Seikojin]

I think the OP is hoping to range assinate. Or if they were human, multishot range assassinate through targets with precise shot, which can be built.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I guess Assassin III only works at close range too...so maybe it won't be as effective as I first thought.

However, I routinelly see SA damage on a bow. But certainly not all the time.
You have to be close....which isn't the ideal way to use a bow. And you have to not have agro. Which is easy to do, but is not usually the situations I want to use a bow up close for. (monster running away from me after I hurt him, monster doing excessive damage to me so begin circle kiting as a defensive move.)

[Seikojin]

Alot of combat can be done in 30 and still keep you safe. So it is possible, even without slaying arrows. If you were assassinate 3, and slaying arrows, thats two saves versus death.

[Deathseeker]

I'm confused (which is not unusual for me)...

Doesnt the assasinate III vorpal happen on a natural 20? Don't the slayer arrows hit on a natural 20? Thus, it seems there isn't a lot of synergy here. Sure, 20's are great, but is the incremental lift from slayer on a 20 to vorpal on a 20 really worth going all the way to Rogue 18?

Seems like Kensai III or the Ranger capstone give more incremental benefit in parallel with slayer than does assassinate III which appears to somewhat overlap it?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Just remember, the Assassin III vorpal works only on a sneak attack (which means you have to be within 30 feet of the critter on a ranged weapon).

Yeah...kinda forgot that. Definately limits it.



I think the OP is hoping to range assinate. Or if they were human, multishot range assassinate through targets with precise shot, which can be built.

Yes.
But hoping to get AA so needs to be an Elf. Might be too many feats. Originally thought of Rgr2. But need a spell casting class in there too..

Might be too many feats needed. Maybe Ftr 1 and forget Bow Str?


Well....wouldn't really come together tiil lvl 20. And that's a long time to invest in an experiment. :(

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I'm confused (which is not unusual for me)...

Doesnt the assasinate III vorpal happen on a natural 20? Don't the slayer arrows hit on a natural 20? Thus, it seems there isn't a lot of synergy here. Sure, 20's are great, but is the incremental lift from slayer on a 20 to vorpal on a 20 really worth going all the way to Rogue 18?

Seems like Kensai III or the Ranger capstone give more incremental benefit in parallel with slayer than does assassinate III which appears to somewhat overlap it?

That too...

I guess it's not such a great idea after all. :(

[Seikojin]

I guess Assassin III only works at close range too...so maybe it won't be as effective as I first thought.

However, I routinelly see SA damage on a bow. But certainly not all the time.
You have to be close....which isn't the ideal way to use a bow. And you have to not have agro. Which is easy to do, but is not usually the situations I want to use a bow up close for. (monster running away from me after I hurt him, monster doing excessive damage to me so begin circle kiting as a defensive move.)

When doing closed range combat, circle kiting is not defensive to me, lol! I think it is extremely effective in keeping the mobs in control. And if you kite properly, you can line up alot of mobs in 30 and do small loops where you target the last guy in the line to maximize the use of improved precision. Mix that with manyshot and your assassinate 3, and you can force alot of mobs to make saves vs death.

Also, your sneaks would work with paralized mobs right? So if your bow is para, you can lock them all down in a line and kill them with ranged dps.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Alot of combat can be done in 30 and still keep you safe. So it is possible, even without slaying arrows. If you were assassinate 3, and slaying arrows, thats two saves versus death.

I do think that a Rogue with Improved Precise Shot could do some amazing damage with a ranged weapon, with little effort. Just make sure someone else gets agro. then come in close and shoot through the whole crowd.

[Seikojin]

Yeah...kinda forgot that. Definately limits it.

Yes.
But hoping to get AA so needs to be an Elf. Might be too many feats. Originally thought of Rgr2. But need a spell casting class in there too..

Might be too many feats needed. Maybe Ftr 1 and forget Bow Str?


Well....wouldn't really come together tiil lvl 20. And that's a long time to invest in an experiment. :(

I don't think youd be able to do AA and Assassin at the same time.

AA with slaying arrows would probably be the better route.

But a rogue decked out to do manyshot and improved precise shot is a decent dps range because of sneak attacks. They wouldn't happen much though. LOL I am sure d8+8d6+bow stuff+damage buffs would make you aggroo quickly, even with sutble backstab maxed out.

[Seikojin]

I do think that a Rogue with Improved Precise Shot could do some amazing damage with a ranged weapon, with little effort. Just make sure someone else gets agro. then come in close and shoot through the whole crowd.

Definitely would need an intimi tank or hireling to intimi.

[Deathseeker]

How about this one instead...I've been playing around with the concept...

Zealot Archer = 15 Pally / 3 Rogue / 2 Ranger

The pally gives you +5 dmg / +5 to hit from divine favor, and +6 damage from divine might, and 2d6+3 sneak attack. And the big kicker...+10% speed bonus from Zeal! Add in 5 rogue haste boosts for burst dps, favored enemy undead and hunter of the undead, and I think this looks to compare very well with Ranger 20 and Ftr 18 / X / X. Less burst dps than the fighter, but has a lot of survivability stuff (resists, lay on hands, etc). And I think it has more burst dps than a Ranger 20 (though less sustained dps against the ranger's favored enemies).

Note I've ignored smites and the divine attack that does light damage (forget the name) because they don't work on ranged.

Any thoughts to save me from making a big long post on this only to be embarrassed by something obvious Im missing.

Thoughts?

[Xeraphim]

I think I'll skip all the messy multiclassing and enhancements and such and just use an Elven Arcane Archer and give it the racial bow damage and attack lines, popping the Capstone on it for even better firing speed.

STR stays maxed at all levels, DEX is the secondary focus for Gear purposes, and you stay ranged through pretty much its entire career.

Simple, hard to screw up, easy to recognize, and that's how I like it.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

When doing closed range combat, circle kiting is not defensive to me, lol! I think it is extremely effective in keeping the mobs in control. And if you kite properly, you can line up alot of mobs in 30 and do small loops where you target the last guy in the line to maximize the use of improved precision. Mix that with manyshot and your assassinate 3, and you can force alot of mobs to make saves vs death.

Also, your sneaks would work with paralized mobs right? So if your bow is para, you can lock them all down in a line and kill them with ranged dps.

I don't think SA works with paralyzers.

I hate to kite. Others hate it more. What I do when I am overmatched...like say I have agro from one guy who is kicking my butt... I will jump back, pull out my bow and kite in circles...jumping all the time. runnong him back and forth through the party in the hopes that someone else will eventually pull him off of me or eventually that I will kill him myself without getting hit from him again.

It's just an alternative to normal kiting that keeps him closer to the rest of the party.

I also use circle kiting against some casters....mostly lower lvl ones... to avoid those overpowered scorching rays in Irestone for instance.

Anyway, the defensive part is trying to not be hit by him.

I also use Manyshot at times even at close range, because for most of my Rgrs it does the most burst DPS. Manyshot tends to draw agro quickly. Cicle kitiing is a more party friendly optiuon for dealing with that agro.

I don't actually have a high lvl AA yet. To test Slaying arrows myself.
Nor do I have an Assassin III yet.
So the mechanics of it all is not really something I'm familiar enough with to be sure of how to use them.


Oh well. Seemed a good idea when I thought of it. :o

[Talon_Moonshadow]

How about this one instead...I've been playing around with the concept...

Zealot Archer = 15 Pally / 3 Rogue / 2 Ranger

The pally gives you +5 dmg / +5 to hit from divine favor, and +6 damage from divine might, and 2d6+3 sneak attack. And the big kicker...+10% speed bonus from Zeal! Add in 5 rogue haste boosts for burst dps, favored enemy undead and hunter of the undead, and I think this looks to compare very well with Ranger 20 and Ftr 18 / X / X. Less burst dps than the fighter, but has a lot of survivability stuff (resists, lay on hands, etc). And I think it has more burst dps than a Ranger 20 (though less sustained dps against the ranger's favored enemies).

Note I've ignored smites and the divine attack that does light damage (forget the name) because they don't work on ranged.

Any thoughts to save me from making a big long post on this only to be embarrassed by something obvious Im missing.

Thoughts?

Seems interesting at first glance. The SA damage is ok, but not alot. Can be upped with BS items like Tharnes Goggles. Will only come into play maybe half the time. But still nice.

[rimble]

How about this one instead...I've been playing around with the concept...

Zealot Archer = 15 Pally / 3 Rogue / 2 Ranger

The pally gives you +5 dmg / +5 to hit from divine favor

Caps at +3/+3.


, and +6 damage from divine might

I'd have to see the full stat layout proposed since this requires a Cha investment that most archers probably don't make. I also find Divine Might terribly annoying to keep up.


and 2d6+3 sneak attack.

Yeah, not bad at close range.


And the big kicker...+10% speed bonus from Zeal!

I'd clarify all the stacking involved here. I'd have to go and read up some, I'm not sure off the top of my head. Would it stack with Black Dragonscale robe or the Abbot quiver? Too bad there's no Longbow ingredient for Holy Sword (is there?!).


Add in 5 rogue haste boosts for burst dps

Useful, but they're the little ones. The Fighter ones go to 40% I think...?


favored enemy undead

+3 Damage vs that one enemy, meh.


and hunter of the undead,

+0 Damage vs that one enemy, hehe.


and I think this looks to compare very well with Ranger 20 and Ftr 18 / X / X.

Eh, I think you should dig into the numbers more...I'm not feelin' it...

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Oh. What about Earth Grab and the frozen ice GS effects? Do they grant SA damage?
(autocrits?!!!)


Radiance Bow?!



(Radiance Great Crossbow????!)

[Cyr]

Yes, that is a good build It's all about the dps on ranged attacks.

A) You will under dps other dps builds where it is single target mob situations by a decent amount.

B) You will under dps other dps builds against crit immune mobs by a good amount.

C) . The insta-kill abilities of the build are the least impressive parts of the build as those do not work on epic.

D) You will out dps other archer builds when you can take advantage of your sneak attack.

E) Because of (D) you need to play this type of archer very differently then how I see many play their archers. You are a close combat fighter. You do need to diplo mobs off of you. You should not be moving around constantly ie kiting. If your kiting your dps is mediocre. You need a lot of hit points. If you like building 300 hp builds do not bother with this type of build as it will be horrible for you to play. You can not rely on radiance nearly as much as you could normally for a rogue due to small crit range. In fact, like lower level melee rogues your worth will be immensily greater in groups.

F) Ping pong tactics are valid for this type of build in tandem with other AA of all sorts. It will be a smaller turn around room for the mobs due to your need to be within 30' though...although you can chase a mob in towards your ally and out as they gain agro on you.

All in all it's an interesting build concept, but it takes a lot of skill to pull it off and some nice equipment (unlike most AA builds which can have mostly junk due to their lower risk of death combat style). A more forgiving and easier build to play is the 13 rogue/ 6 ranger/ 1 anything else usually monk or fighter. This alternate build does better dps when you are not in optimal situations for sneak attack damage. It would be a sort of bridge build between the pure damage dealing AA builds of 20 ranger or 18 fighter/1 arcane/1 ranger.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Another problem that I often forget about is having at least a BaB of 16 for four arrows of Manyshot.

That and the small amount of feats most classes get makes it real difficult to make a ranged build that is not heavy in Rgr or Ftr levels.

Add in the fact that one-trick-pony builds are undesireable.

Really limits the variety of ranged builds I would like to play.

The Ranged Rogue really needs Improved Precise shot to shine IMO. More so than many others. Although can get by without Bow Str. Still a lot of feats and the end result is a squishy char who cannot melee effectively.

And any non-Rgr AA needs to be lvl 20 to get Slayer Arrows. That's a long time to wait to get a usable build IMO.
Similar with any non-Rgr/Ftr archer. As you need so many feats to be good at ranged you will be almost capped before you see any real fun with the build.

:(

[LargeMarge]

Another problem that I often forget about is having at least a BaB of 16 for four arrows of Manyshot.

That and the small amount of feats most classes get makes it real difficult to make a ranged build that is not heavy in Rgr or Ftr levels.

Add in the fact that one-trick-pony builds are undesireable.

Really limits the variety of ranged builds I would like to play.

The Ranged Rogue really needs Improved Precise shot to shine IMO. More so than many others. Although can get by without Bow Str. Still a lot of feats and the end result is a squishy char who cannot melee effectively.

And any non-Rgr AA needs to be lvl 20 to get Slayer Arrows. That's a long time to wait to get a usable build IMO.
Similar with any non-Rgr/Ftr archer. As you need so many feats to be good at ranged you will be almost capped before you see any real fun with the build.

:(


I've been playing this AA Rogue for some time now. Click on the link below...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=204628

I hope this helps. The dmg that this build puts out with Manyshot (16 BAB), Bow Str, Improved Precise shot, GS Lightning II or +++, Ranged Sneak Attack, Rogue Haste Boost and the AA Slaying Imbued Arrows is insane. The play-style is not for everyone though. It takes some solid play to be effective with this build.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I've been playing this AA Rogue for some time now. Click on the link below...

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=204628

I hope this helps. The dmg that this build puts out with Manyshot (16 BAB), Bow Str, Improved Precise shot, GS Lightning II or +++, Ranged Sneak Attack, Rogue Haste Boost and the AA Slaying Imbued Arrows is insane. The play-style is not for everyone though. It takes some solid play to be effective with this build.

Yeah...looks fun.

I have a Rgr6/Rog10 right now that was going for Tempest Assassin II originally. He is an Elf and could go AA.


One idea I keep thinking of is that Lesser/Greater Reincarnations give us a new option for leveling up chars. The option of being speced one way while we level, and than totally changing focus at higher lvls when gear/abilities would be available for a different focus.

For instance, I still think a Dex Rogue is best....until you get Radiance weps. After that the Str based Thug style is far superior.
So you could have a traditional Dex Rogue, until you make your GS. Then Reincarnate into a Str based thugish build.

For the Ranged AA builds you could lvl up as a melee guy...just like everyone else. Then totally change focus when you can unleash Slayer Arrows.

This could work for a whole lot of AA ideas. Rogue, FVS, Pal... all those that need almost every feat to make decent.

(ranged sheep in melee wolve's clothing. :cool:)

[LargeMarge]

Yeah...looks fun.

I have a Rgr6/Rog10 right now that was going for Tempest Assassin II originally. He is an Elf and could go AA.


One idea I keep thinking of is that Lesser/Greater Reincarnations give us a new option for leveling up chars. The option of being speced one way while we level, and than totally changing focus at higher lvls when gear/abilities would be available for a different focus.

For instance, I still think a Dex Rogue is best....until you get Radiance weps. After that the Str based Thug style is far superior.
So you could have a traditional Dex Rogue, until you make your GS. Then Reincarnate into a Str based thugish build.

For the Ranged AA builds you could lvl up as a melee guy...just like everyone else. Then totally change focus when you can unleash Slayer Arrows.

This could work for a whole lot of AA ideas. Rogue, FVS, Pal... all those that need almost every feat to make decent.

(ranged sheep in melee wolve's clothing. :cool:)


While I agree that it would be an interesting concept to change focus when you reach higher levels. I would still recommend to most players to practice with this type and style of build while leveling. It takes some solid play to be effective with this build.

[Ethias]

How does 18 ftr/1x/1x compare, ranged damage wise, to a full ranger? anyone with experience on that? what would be the best choice? Does the cleric +1 hit Faith bonus stack with weapon focus? Maybe 18 ftr/1 clr/1 wiz? Though I'd think an 18 fighter wouldn't be feat starved so maybe the wizard level isn't necessary, whereas it is sometimes helpful for other feat starved multiclass archers. Would this build give up too much of the utility of ranger spells to be worthwhile?

The paladin concept is awesome sounding but I think in practice it may not be so effective because of the stat spread you need. Does Divine Sacrifice work on ranged attacks or is that the light attack you were referring to?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

How does 18 ftr/1x/1x compare, ranged damage wise, to a full ranger? anyone with experience on that? what would be the best choice? Does the cleric +1 hit Faith bonus stack with weapon focus? Maybe 18 ftr/1 clr/1 wiz? Though I'd think an 18 fighter wouldn't be feat starved so maybe the wizard level isn't necessary, whereas it is sometimes helpful for other feat starved multiclass archers. Would this build give up too much of the utility of ranger spells to be worthwhile?

The paladin concept is awesome sounding but I think in practice it may not be so effective because of the stat spread you need. Does Divine Sacrifice work on ranged attacks or is that the light attack you were referring to?

I have a Ftr archer who is currently Ftr15/Rgr1/Wiz1 I think.

He is a very good archer. Who does great bow damage.

But that is all. I find him limiting. And a bit squishy.

I also worry that the Rgr capstone may produce better DPS. And there is no way to go AA and pure Ftr to get the Ftr capstone.

But at lvl 1-19, I do think the Ftr archer does better DPS. But a Rgr is a better all around char IMO.

[rimble]

How does 18 ftr/1x/1x compare, ranged damage wise, to a full ranger? anyone with experience on that? what would be the best choice?

The Ranger is more flexible, the Fighter is very VERY ranged specific.

The Ranger Favored Enemies work with any weapon, so against those five types of creatures (which you should really be able to cover what you need, maybe swapping some now and then depending on content) you can Range or Melee freely.

The Fighter, however, has all his benefits tied to that single weapon: Longbow (well, Ranged). If you're not using a Longbow, you lose it all...WF, GWF, SWF, WS, GWS, Kensai I, Kensai II, Kensai III, Fighter Weapon Specialization...gone.

That being said, a more even Fighter/Ranger split can potentially bring the two extremes closer together Fighter 12 / Ranger 6 / Something 2.

From 18 Fighter you lose: 1 Crit Range, 1 Damage from Fighter Weapon Specialization II, and some more Feats you don't need.

Going to 6 Ranger you gain: TWF, ITWF, Bow Strength, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Ram's Might (+3 Dmg), 2 Favored Enemies at +6 Dmg (vs +14 for a pure Ranger), access to AA without having to splash another spellcaster class if you don't want, a bunch of Skill Points, and Spot as a class skill.

I'm planning on 12 Fighter / 6 Ranger / 2 Bard as I level up. Since my 4th level of Ranger isn't until Level 15, I want a spellcaster class early to qualify for AA. After 20th level I'll swap the Bard levels for Rogue levels (they're being taken at Level 1 and Level 20).

[sigtrent]

Weird for me to be thinking pure class in any build but I keep thinking pure ranger works out best for an archer build. The capstone, the free feats, the versatility, the run speed etc...

They are one of the few with a pretty jaw dropping end cap, if you are indeed ranged focused. You also have the advantage of being able to go STR focused and still pay attention to dex through the class and race enhancements.

I do think the rouge archer idea is clever, but as the OP says, its hard to make all the pieces fit together due to feat, stat, enhancement limitations.

[Seikojin]

If you do pure fighter, you can take the haste boost, so you can burst for 40% attack speed, 10% at all times with the capstone, and you can probably stack the tempest set with it, so 20% all the time, 60% in bursts, and whatever other stacks you can throw intot he mix (haste, other clickies).

Plus a pure ranger doesn't get the focus or specialization lines that a fighter does, so a fighter can get more to hit and damage I think in the longer run. Just no spellcasting. LOL

[MrCow]

And there is no way to go AA and pure Ftr to get the Ftr capstone.

I thought Past Life: Arcane Prodigy was a prerequisite that allowed access to Arcane Archer?

[Cyr]

If you do pure fighter, you can take the haste boost, so you can burst for 40% attack speed, 10% at all times with the capstone, and you can probably stack the tempest set with it, so 20% all the time, 60% in bursts, and whatever other stacks you can throw intot he mix (haste, other clickies).

Plus a pure ranger doesn't get the focus or specialization lines that a fighter does, so a fighter can get more to hit and damage I think in the longer run. Just no spellcasting. LOL

I would just like to point out that the pure fighter has no spell points so they can not use the main ability of AA.

Edit; And McCow that is my understanding, but with the caveat that since fighters have no spell point pool that you still have no spell points with the feat making AA mostly useless.

[rimble]

I thought Past Life: Arcane Prodigy was a prerequisite that allowed access to Arcane Archer?

Yeah, but you won't have any spell points to feed it, and items (and that Past Life Feat) don't give spell points to non-caster characters.

[Visty]

Alot of combat can be done in 30 and still keep you safe. So it is possible, even without slaying arrows. If you were assassinate 3, and slaying arrows, thats two saves versus death.

small correction:
there arent 2 saves because slayer arrows dont give a save
its a straight 500dmg on a 20

[MrCow]

Edit; And McCow that is my understanding, but with the caveat that since fighters have no spell point pool that you still have no spell points with the feat making AA mostly useless.

Much appreciated on the information. I neglected to think about that issue.

By the way, that is the first time I recall someone using that misspelling for my name. :)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I thought Past Life: Arcane Prodigy was a prerequisite that allowed access to Arcane Archer?

No SP to make use of most AA abilities.

When I first heard about Arcane Prodigy, I made a comment about the best archer now being a Ftr who was a TRed Sor. A dev quickly pointed out that such a char would lack the SP necessary to get much out of the AA enhancements.

Technically I guess you can make a Ftr20 AA though.