This can't be right....

[Axan28]

I got a Fighter up to level 4 with no problems whatsoever, but decided to try a Rogue as I have always been attracted to the class, whatever game I play.

I rolled a Halfling Rogue with the following starting stats, intending to try out an Assassin build:
Str: 12 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 8

At level 1 Rank 3, I have the following Enhancements:
Sneak Attack Training I, Skill Boost I, Rogue Hide I

At this time, I'm wielding 2 x Rapier and the main hand Rapier has a small Fire Damage.

The first quest in the starter village, where you enter the family crypt to investigate the noise, I walked through without any problems whatsoever on the Normal setting. Did this twice just to accumulate a bit of coin. Didn't have any problems at all. Decided to do the Hard difficulty setting, and now the problems begin - I CAN'T HIT A THING.

When entering the dungeon and the first gate opens, 2 spiders come at you. I died, I just could not hit them, and hardly did any damage to the first one, let alone despatch the two. I re entered the dungeon, and barely managed to finish them off, but it's all down hill from there. There was absolutely no way to finish this dungeon on the hard setting without hiring a Fighter Minion to help me.

I decided to check the Combat log for my hits. I dismissed the Fighter Minion, and engaged then next two spiders in the dungeon. To cut a long story short, here' s the result after I first engaged the spider while in Sneak :

5 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 3 plus 1 Fire damage
18 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 1 plus 1 Fire damage
11 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 2 plus 1 Fire damage
22 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 1 plus 1 Fire damage
9 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 2 plus 1 Fire damage
14 Consecutive Misses
.... etc... and so it goes on.

I died again, but you see the problem. My rogue can't hit for squat so his damage output is minimal to laughable. I tried wielding 2 swords, 1 sword 1 rapier, 1 bludgeon 1 sword, 1 bludgeon 1 rapier etc, and it didn't make a blind bit of difference. It's not just bad luck and bad dice rolls, it's the same hit to miss ratio whatever I do. The bottom line is I'm dead before I do any significant damage to a mob, and this is just the first dungeon in the starter zone. I dread to think how I'm going to progress without a minion to help, and once he's dead, I'm somewhat screwed.

My fighter breezed through to level 4 without a single death or a problem, and I eventually did all the starter island dungeons on Elite, with the exception of the Peak dungeon, 'cos I couldn't be bothered getting the quest and running all the way back to it again.

So what's the problem? Why is my Rogue's DPS and Hit/Miss ratio worse than a one legged, blind man in an ass kicking contest , when my fighter is OMG***UBER in comparison.

[JustWinBaby]

2 things to think about.

1. Do you have the Two Weapon Fighting Feat. If not, then because you are wielding 2 Rapiers, you're getting a -4 to Attack on each weapon.

2. Do you have Defensive Fighting turned on? If so, that gives you a -2 to attack.

Other than that, there shouldn't be any trouble whatsoever.

[Zachski]

When you say "Sword", you mean short sword, right? Rapiers aren't light weapons, except as far as Weapon Finesse goes.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

2 things to think about.

1. Do you have the Two Weapon Fighting Feat. If not, then because you are wielding 2 Rapiers, you're getting a -4 to Attack on each weapon.

2. Do you have Defensive Fighting turned on? If so, that gives you a -2 to attack.

Other than that, there shouldn't be any trouble whatsoever.

He is also low strength and won't be able to take weapon finesse until L3. That means a lower attack bonus.

Also no sneak attack vs undead (or generally while soloing since you will usually have agro), so that's going to be a low damage zone.

OP...ONE weapon with a light shield until L6 or 8 at least. Get weapon finesse at L3. Use a blunt weapon on skellis.

[Saaluta]

2 things to think about.

1. Do you have the Two Weapon Fighting Feat. If not, then because you are wielding 2 Rapiers, you're getting a -4 to Attack on each weapon.

2. Do you have Defensive Fighting turned on? If so, that gives you a -2 to attack.

Other than that, there shouldn't be any trouble whatsoever.

I'm thinking this is probably the problem. Should probably use just 1 rapier until you can get the TWF feat :)

Saal :)

[acidtiger]

Since two weapon fighting has been covered, what about Oversized TWF? A Rapier is not considered a light weapon so having one in your offhand will still give a penalty to hit with it.

Edit: Doh, too slow. :)

[JustWinBaby]

If you want more info, tell us more about the Rogue. What level is the Rogue, what feats did you take, what weapons are you using (more specific, not just sword or bludgeoning, but like rapier, longsword, light mace - be specific)?

[Maggiman]

do you have weapon finesse?

if not you use your str for to hit

if you´re going for a dex built rogue you should definetly get weapon finesse

i think justwinbaby sums everything else up

[Axan28]

In reply to JustWinBaby, following my original post:

Yes, I do have the 2 Weapon Fighting Feat
No, I don not have Defensive Fighting turned on. I've never used it yet as the last thing I want is a further damage penalty in return for a little bit more AC. Besides, the problem isn't my AC, it's my damage and Hit/Miss Ratio.

But thanks for the reply JustWinBaby, you bought up relevant points.

[regor8]

First off i dont know what feets you have. i would think weapon finesse at level 3 cause of high dex or two-wepon fighting. when fighting without two-weapon fighting feet you get a nice negative to hit also weilding 2 rapiers means you get another negative beacuse rapier is a big weapon in off hand. you should problably switch to rapier/dagger or rapier/shortsword to help with to hit problems

weapon finesse give you +2 to-hit over not having it
no two-weapon fighting gives -4/-4 for each hand
no oversized two-wepon fighting nets another -4/-4(i think)

total -10/-10 to-hit with your setup right now

[WeaselKing]

Use one weapon for now, if you don't have twf get it, if you don't have weapon finesse, get it, try a light weapon in your off-hand like a short sword.

[HGM-Chi]

You'll want Two Weapon Fighting.
You'll want a light weapon in off hand (short sword, dagger, *not* rapier)
With a str of 12 and dex of 17 you'll be wanting to take the "Weapon Finesse" feat.
Also, as a squishy little rogue you'll want toughness in there, too... at level one that's a few too many feats, so you'll have to figure out when and what.

Finally... you can't expect a rogue to be performing straight damage anything like your fighter. Fighters are for dealing damage while going toe to toe, rogues are for dealing damage when their opponent isn't looking at them.

[WeaselKing]

no oversized two-wepon fighting nets another -4/-4(i think)



I think it is -2 offhand and no change main hand.

[jcTharin]

if your trying to use two weapons you need to know two things

you need the two weapon fighting feat. fighting with two weapons has a lot of penalties to your to-hit. the feat reduces this

you need a light weapon in your off hand. using a big weapon in your off hand has extra penalties

[The_Ick]

I got a Fighter up to level 4 with no problems whatsoever, but decided to try a Rogue as I have always been attracted to the class, whatever game I play.

I rolled a Halfling Rogue with the following starting stats, intending to try out an Assassin build:
Str: 12 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 8

At level 1 Rank 3, I have the following Enhancements:
Sneak Attack Training I, Skill Boost I, Rogue Hide I

At this time, I'm wielding 2 x Rapier and the main hand Rapier has a small Fire Damage.

The first quest in the starter village, where you enter the family crypt to investigate the noise, I walked through without any problems whatsoever on the Normal setting. Did this twice just to accumulate a bit of coin. Didn't have any problems at all. Decided to do the Hard difficulty setting, and now the problems begin - I CAN'T HIT A THING.

When entering the dungeon and the first gate opens, 2 spiders come at you. I died, I just could not hit them, and hardly did any damage to the first one, let alone despatch the two. I re entered the dungeon, and barely managed to finish them off, but it's all down hill from there. There was absolutely no way to finish this dungeon on the hard setting without hiring a Fighter Minion to help me.

I decided to check the Combat log for my hits. I dismissed the Fighter Minion, and engaged then next two spiders in the dungeon. To cut a long story short, here' s the result after I first engaged the spider while in Sneak :

5 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 3 plus 1 Fire damage
18 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 1 plus 1 Fire damage
11 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 2 plus 1 Fire damage
22 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 1 plus 1 Fire damage
9 Consecutive Misses
Hit for 2 plus 1 Fire damage
14 Consecutive Misses
.... etc... and so it goes on.

I died again, but you see the problem. My rogue can't hit for squat so his damage output is minimal to laughable. I tried wielding 2 swords, 1 sword 1 rapier, 1 bludgeon 1 sword, 1 bludgeon 1 rapier etc, and it didn't make a blind bit of difference. It's not just bad luck and bad dice rolls, it's the same hit to miss ratio whatever I do. The bottom line is I'm dead before I do any significant damage to a mob, and this is just the first dungeon in the starter zone. I dread to think how I'm going to progress without a minion to help, and once he's dead, I'm somewhat screwed.

My fighter breezed through to level 4 without a single death or a problem, and I eventually did all the starter island dungeons on Elite, with the exception of the Peak dungeon, 'cos I couldn't be bothered getting the quest and running all the way back to it again.

So what's the problem? Why is my Rogue's DPS and Hit/Miss ratio worse than a one legged, blind man in an ass kicking contest , when my fighter is OMG***UBER in comparison.

You need to take weapon finess if you haven't already. That will use your DEX for the BAB instead of your strength..

[Drakos]

I can see several potential problems.

As mentioned if you don't have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat you are taking massive penalties to hit, coupled with the lower Base attack Bonus of the rogue... Was the fighter using two weapons as well? If so did he hafe Two-Weapon fighting?

Another is that as you progress up the levels of difficulty the creatures CR increases and the HP goes up significantly. What weapon(s) was the fighter using. A rapier will have less damage vs. the zombies than a slashing weapon would.

A rogue has less HP so you will die faster than the fighter. Plus you likely have a lower Strength than the fighter did meaning even less chance of hiting and less damage / hit.

EDIT: Even with Two-Weapon Fighting you are still suffering a -2 on each weapon.

[DreamSlinger]

2 things to think about.

1. Do you have the Two Weapon Fighting Feat. If not, then because you are wielding 2 Rapiers, you're getting a -4 to Attack on each weapon.

2. Do you have Defensive Fighting turned on? If so, that gives you a -2 to attack.

Other than that, there shouldn't be any trouble whatsoever.

No TWF -6/-10
No TWF w/light off-hand -4/-8
TWF -4/-4
TWF w/light off-hand -2/-2

If you have the Oversized TWF feat any off-hand weapon is counted as light for the purposes of figuring out your penalties.

Sticking with one Rapier for the first few levels until you have some to-hit to spare is probably a good idea.

[SquelchHU]

Too slow.

[MrkGrismer]

As others have said:

http://ddowiki.com/page/Feats


Two-Weapon Fighting (requires Dexterity 15+): Reduces the to-hit penalty when using two weapons at the same time. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off-hand lessens by 6, so it becomes -4/-4 (instead of -6/-10 without this feat). If the off-hand weapon is light, the penalties both decrease by another 2 points, down to -2/-2 (instead of -4/-8 without this feat).

So with no TWF, you have -6/-10 with dual rapier. Add -4 more if you are moving.

In addition to what others have said, note that Hard is +1 to the quest level, and can sometimes make a bigger difference on some quests, depending on the character. Although with Kothos quests it usually isn't a big deal. But you combine the higher difficulty with the significant penalties not having TWF gives you and you got problems. Chances are you are only hitting on natural 20s.

[DreamSlinger]

You need to take weapon finess if you haven't already. That will use your DEX for the BAB instead of your strength..

Not trying to nitpick but Dex and Str don't ever increase your BAB (http://ddowiki.com/page/BAB) (Base Attack Bonus). Only class levels and spells like Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation effect your BAB.

[JOTMON]

Not trying to nitpick but Dex and Str don't ever increase your BAB (http://ddowiki.com/page/BAB) (Base Attack Bonus). Only class levels and spells like Divine Power and Tenser's Transformation effect your BAB.

:D, true. but I think the intent was the + to attack bonus as opposed to the BAB.

Weapons finess allows the character to use their higher DEX bonus for their attack bonus on finessable weapons opposed to STR for the attack bonus.

A Rapier is a finessable weapon but not a light weapon, so it incurrs a heavier offhand penalty on the to hit until you get to a higher level where the bonuses and weapons feats make this loss insignificant.

I grimace anytime i see a low level toon dual weilding rapiers knowing their to hit is going to be abysmal.
Go single weapon until at least level 5, at least then you will have weapons finess, two weapon fighting and a better attack bonus. dual weilding weapon attacks get better the higher the level you are because all your other modifiers mask the minimal loss you get. Those losses are significant at low levels.

[Cyr]

So what's the problem? Why is my Rogue's DPS and Hit/Miss ratio worse than a one legged, blind man in an ass kicking contest , when my fighter is OMG***UBER in comparison.

Because you are a new player I will be kind here.

*Rogues do incredible dps. They do need to be able to sneak attack a mob to pull this off however. If you are soloing or fighting creatures immune to critical hits your dps will drop off drastically.
*You are dual wielding two large weapons presumably without any two weapon fighting feats. You get huge penalties to hit from this.
*Unless your str is as high as your fighters you are suffering more of a to hit difference there.
*Rogues have a lower base attack bonus then fighters. This means they hit less when to hit matters.

Suggestions:

*If you have a high dexterity take weapon finesse as a feat at third level. It will take your dex bonus for attack instead of your str. bonus.
*Use one weapon only if you don't have any feats to go along with it.
*Groups are a rogues best friend. Your dps is drastically higher when you can sneak attack a mob. When you get higher in level there are ways to blind them allowing sneak attacks solo, but that is a ways off for you.
*Get two weapon fighting, improved two weapon fighting, and greater two weapon fighting as feats as you level as they drastically increase your to hit and dps with a rogue.
*Power attack is also a nice option when you work out your to hit issues.
*There are a few items from the Korthos end rewards that give bonus's to your to hit. You will use them for many levels to come.

[MrWizard]

Your to hit is based on your BAB (base attack bonus) and listed in your character sheet. It changes by class and level.

Your to hit is your BAB + your strength modifier, of which yours is 1 (str of 12). As stated, a feat can make up for the to-hit by switching to use your dex modifier.

Your to hit also takes into consideration the 'plus' of the weapon you are using. The higher the plus, the more to hit, the lower the less.

Your postion on the enemy allows for flanking (+2), rear (+4), and such too.

Your to hit can be lowered by moving (-4).

Using two weapons, one in each hand, and your offhand is not a light weapon adds serious penalties to hit.


and so on...and so on.


The difficulty of the dungeon gets hard as you go to a higher difficulty.
The difficulty also scales higher based on the number of people in it.

The scaling means the monsters will have better saves, higher ACs, better skills, better to hits, damage, etc.


You need to look at your dice roll when you try to hit and see what is says.

Does it say
19
-1

or 19
+5

that number with the plus or minus is 'most' of your to hit bonus. (some things I feel are not always reflected in it due, thats just me).

The dungeon also goes up a level as the difficulty rises. So if it is a 2nd level dungeon on normal, it is a 3rd level dungeon on hard.
This is significant if you are 1st level.

I suggest you post like this whenever you have an issue. If you can, post in the rogue forums or read them more to see like problems. Rogues are hard to play properly and it is easy to misunderstand your role as a new player coming from other games.

Your best bet is to ask questions like this...within a short time you will be happy.

Also, buffs work for a reason, get any buffs you can to strength (or dex) for to hit and damage. Any buffs that increase skills or to hit help a lot in your case.

[MrWizard]

So what's the problem? Why is my Rogue's DPS and Hit/Miss ratio worse than a one legged, blind man in an ass kicking contest , when my fighter is OMG***UBER in comparison.

And to be captain obvious here...

Your fighter was built to be a 'fight'-er

Your rogue is built to be something else.


If you think your rogue does not compare to your fighter in that dungeon, wait til your fighter tries to disarm a trap, save versus a trap, find a trap, or do any backstab damage.
Your rogue can UMD magical items soon, cheat death, assasinate things, sneak by most all enemies, laugh at fireballs and such in a very short time and more.

Pretty sure you will be 'omg, my rogue can do all this my fighter can't do squat except swing and hit things'

each level brings different perspective. give it time, learn the class. DDO has lots of class benefits but most are not apparent at level 1.