Pugs dont Fail, Pug leaders do.

[Impaqt]

So last night I was doing a little toon maintinance and got a Tell... "Care to do a Reaver Raid?" or something to that extent....

He was polite so I figured, what the heck..... I switched to a cleric (I was on my melee FvS and assumed he wanted a healer) and Joined the group.

It was filling slowly so I said I could solo cleric it no problem.. we wound up filling anyway rather quickly so no big deal.

I looked around the group... WF Wiz From Erebus..... Fighter from Inferus Sus.... COuple old friends who just returned to the game from Umber Hulks... and the rest were unknown to me....

Not terible I thought, should go ok.

The leader had asked a couple times if this was anyones "First run" and of course go no response.. Typical... People dont admit that too often. and really, in a Reaver, its not that critical with a few necessary instructions.

We step in and buff, I guess the leader was gonna tank, but didnt make that clear to anyone, as we were about to start, he said something about Lag and rebooting his router.... SOmeone trggered the start and off we went....

I quickly realized we had at least 3 people beating on the reaver... ANd the person who was drawing aggro was pulling the reaver into a corner and holding him there facing the corner... Nearly Immpossible to get charges liek that...
I asked him to pull the reaver out of the corner a couple times He did once, but soon ended up back in the corner... The Raid leader made a couple short comments agreeing with me I think, but never took control of anything. I was not about to since it wasnt my Raid.

ANyway, after a few minutes, I ran out of Spell Points, Couldnt heal fast enough, and got killed. Party wipe ensued.

"Wow, didnt expect that would happen" I thought to myself.... The Leader of the group makes a comment about "Just another Pug Raid Failure"

After everyone recalls out, Most of the group decides to try again... We kept 11 of the 12... Pretty impressive for a misreble failure if ya ask me.... as we are getting ready to reform,. the leader asks again "Is this anyones first time"?

At that Point, I had to speak up...

"Ya know, you still have to actually lead the raid and provide instructions for folks. DOesnt matter if you have 12 peple that know what to do in here, if they all start doing the same thing, the raids gonna fail again"

"Fine, You lead it then" Ding. Alandael has the star. He then said something about being Drunk.....

"OK" I reply.

we break and I reform the group, pop up an lfm and grab an extra Cleric to replace the 1 person we lost to help heal and we go back in.... After a few entertaining tells from friends in the group, and one from the former leader asking me if I was realy gonna lead the raid this time... Obviously, he had no idea who I was... we stepped back in.....


I provided my standard Reaver Raid instructions.

Designated the Tank (Inferus Sus dude) Provided an outline of where the firewalls should be, and made sure I was clear on who was responsible for what. If your not the tank, you are on Ele duty. Pretty simple. But necessary in a Pug.

Not sure what was up, but this was a pretty strange Instance... The tank did Great, we quickly got our buff and all was going smooth. The second cleric I got got killed somehow... Oh well.... then it got weird... I went in for a new Charge.. saw the reaver throwing the charges, Saw the annimation.. but it didnt register on me...
It didnt register on anyone... We hit some lag spikes.... I got incapped somehow.... Things were starting to go Pear shapped..... we lost nearly half the group in an instant.....

I got a Heal of some sort and got back on my feat.. whew.... I quickly reassess the situation. Lost the Tank.... but the rest of my friends were still good to go.... I assigned a new tank and we went back to work. The instance setled down and I was able to get a new charge, the new Tank got Fly... and took off for the lever... He made it, but was unsure as to how it worked. He pulled it, but when I asked if the lever was pulled, I got no response.
He was the only melee left.... and now he was up in the ceiling not doing anything.... Did he not pull the lever?

All the while the Erebus WF Wiz was desperately trying to get a new charge, the other sorc was laying down a firewall here and there.... Our only hope was send someone else to the lever..... SO I went... The wiz got his charge and I told him I was going to the lever, as I got to the lever, I found our melee standing there wondering why the barrier didnt go down.... The one that doesnt go down until the raid is over.... WIth the lever locked down and pulled....

Oh well, Had to check.... Back to the floor.. Storm reaver finaly succumbs to the Firewalls.... and we move on to the puzzle....

It seemed like an Eternity.... No way would we have enough TIme to do the puzzle... But surprisingly, we had plenty of time left... So much in fact that I wonder if the Timer was altered at some point. We had almost half the timer left.....

THe puzzle is done in 5 moves, (Yes, I used a Solver for this run because It was late and we already had one fail... Just didnt want to take the chance)

Congrats get thrown around.. Some raid loot dropped... and everyone is happy.....

Overall, It was a prety Fun run considering......


Cool Story Bro! eh?

SUre, but my point is this....

Most pug raids dont fail "Because they are Pugs" They fail because they dont know what to do. Someone who takes it upon themselves to lead a raid needs to step up and Lead the raid. Asking if anyone is new is not sufficient. Its rather pointless in fact. In a Reaver raid, you could have 20 completions and still not have a good idea as to what is actually happening and what needs to be done...


As a Raid Leader,

Know the raid yourself. You dont have to be an expert. But you should be able to provide direction to the party.

Provide Clear instructions on how you want things to be done. If you dont know, ask for help or suggestions. Figure out who you can Rely on. Figure out who's expendable.

Step up and Take control of the situation when things start to get out of hand.


When things go wrong, they will NOT correct themselves. it will continue to get worse until the party wipes or until someone can get things back on track.

Oh, and this didnt happen last light, but seriously.... Yelling at folks and calling them noobs and saying they suck cause the raid is about to fail is not a good way to rally the troops around you to get a raid (Or any quest) back on track. AS a matter of fact, thats when I stop caring about a completion.



So anyway, Welcome back to the game Anne and Sig.

Thanks for doing a great job Tanking NickF

and to the WF Wiz who's name escapes me right now, You reaffirmed my faith in Erebus. You folks are top notch.

To the folks who wound up in the Penalty Box.... Sorry about that... Nothing I could of done differently..... but Hopefully you learned something about the raid at least.....

[weyoun]

I would have let everyone die and just solo'd it - If I was on my cleric, fvs or arcane. Not healing is key to the pile-on learning process.

[centurian]

Good save Impaqt,/signed

[Impaqt]

I would have let everyone die and just solo'd it - If I was on my cleric, fvs or arcane. Not healing is key to the pile-on learning process.

Dont think the thought didnt cross my mind.....

[HeavenlyCloud]

Oh, and this didnt happen last light, but seriously.... Yelling at folks and calling them noobs and saying they suck cause the raid is about to fail is not a good way to rally the troops around you to get a raid (Or any quest) back on track. AS a matter of fact, thats when I stop caring about a completion.

I usually just see how good are the chances to succeed and just tell him to shut up and see how it's done :O. Usually this make them shut up and start thinking "*** did they do to finish".

Nice story btw :P and i agree.

[Anderei]

Obviously, he had no idea who I was...

And that exactly is?

Otherwise I agree that a good organisation/leadership is it all about. Even if everybody knows how a raid works, there are still different ways to do it, the group having to adept due to its makeup etc. Hardly any Raid works of 12 people running indepently who altough knowing what to do without communicating.

[Impaqt]

And that exactly is?



many, If not most raiders, on Thelanis, especially late night players, know I lead a LOT of raids.

[Ministry]

many, If not most raiders, on Thelanis, especially late night players, know I lead a LOT of raids.

Sorry... who are you?

:)

Oh, one of those fancy raid leaders... ya, I keep getting myddo'ed, so don't get into those.

:(

Yup, with Lysol on this one... sometimes you just have to let people die and just do it yourself as it can be so much easier to just worry about yourself and maybe a few others than a bunch of people that just can't, don't or won't get it.

But, **** good advice to anyone wanting to lead a raid.


...

Thanks for doing a great job Tanking NickF

and to the WF Wiz who's name escapes me right now, You reaffirmed my faith in Erebus. You folks are top notch.

...

Yup, no surprise there.

[wulfhen]

Pretty new here, and damnable new to DDO..

But from my little experience in regards to both just standard 6-man content and raids..

Couldn't agree more.

Doesn't even matter if you have a mic, as long as you're capable of giving clear instructions and warnings via text. Simple stick with me, go for these mobs first, and advance warning of traps just for those of lousy memory.

More often than not, I just see people opening up a group for content they want to get done and assuming that everyone is going to work together as though they're on the same page.

When pigs fly.

[Gunga]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership skills should come into question if half the pug can't take direction?

/generalization fail

[wulfhen]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership should come into question if half the pug can't take instruction?

/generalization fail

>.< But the original poster didn't make a sweeping generalization. He said *most*, which is a majority. There was no comment about *all*, or the fact that everyone listens to leaders.

[Impaqt]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership should come into question if half the pug can't take instruction?

/generalization fail


Yup, sometimes It can be hopeless.....

I find those times to be not as often as most people believe.

Most people Dont want to Suck.

Most people Dont want to Fail.

Its a pretty rare group where 11 People have no interest in listening to instructions or doing what needs to be done.

[Gunga]

>.< But the original poster didn't make a sweeping generalization. He said *most*, which is a majority. There was no comment about *all*, or the fact that everyone listens to leaders.

So you skipped the most easily read part of the thread and went straight for the wall of text?

The term "most" is a sweeping generalization btw...

[Impaqt]

Its true. I Guilty of believing that people want to succeed in general.

[Ministry]

Yeah. OK.

What about Pugs that don't listen to a single word you say?

Your leadership skills should come into question if half the pug can't take direction?



The moment you realize this, break group and re-form without the person(s) that don't/won't take direction.

Unfortunately I have done this a couple of times.

Message out verbally, "sorry all, this isn't going well and I'm going to drop now. Anyone else who wants to reform, I will re-post and you are welcome to hit the LFM and we will go again, without those who refuse to listen and / or do as required."

I hate to waste the time of the people in the group that are solid and want to do well and succeed, but I'm sure they don't mind reforming if we have a higher chance of success and are leaving the pikers.

The only exception to this is "IF" people say something up front. I know Impaqt and many other raid leaders that are happy to give extra explanation / instructions up front to ensure people understand what is required and to ask for help along the way.

Communication is required bi-directionally and you are correct Gunga, if the puggers won't communicate and / or take direction... Fail.

[wulfhen]

So you skipped the most easily read part of the thread and went straight for the wall of text?

The term "most" is a sweeping generalization btw...

A sweeping generalization is "All". "Most" allows for a lot of leeway though it is a generalization because it isn't hard fact.

And yes. I read the post. Whats the point in replying to a post if you're going to skip the majority of it and merely comment on something in the first few lines?

I would say thats akin to trying to say you know the contents of a novel because you read the first chapter.

[Gunga]

Yup, sometimes It can be hopeless.....

I find those times to be not as often as most people believe.

Most people Dont want to Suck.

Most people Dont want to Fail.

Its a pretty rare group where 11 People have no interest in listening to instructions or doing what needs to be done.

We don't all have to agree.

I pug a lot.

I'll make this generalization:

People don't listen.

I think it's a basic part of modern day life. You need to tell people 1,000 times to do something before it finally connects. Advertising is a prime example.

Add to the fact that a great many powergamers have at least some level of ADD, and you don't have yourself a winning model for compliance.

You might have had a nice little pug experience that motivated you to create a WOT thread about your latest epiphany. A pug has it's reputation for a valid reason, and pardon me for not taking your wide-eyed account of the promised land to heart.


But don't take my word for it - go run a few pugs with Doc, the quintessential pug leader. He's brutal. He's a drill sargeant. This is no fun and games, there's a war going on and these devils have got to die. He yells and screams and curses and wins.

Go talk to him about how pugs are just poor misunderstood souls looking for a daddy.

[Gunga]

A sweeping generalization is "All". "Most" allows for a lot of leeway though it is a generalization because it isn't hard fact.

And yes. I read the post. Whats the point in replying to a post if you're going to skip the majority of it and merely comment on something in the first few lines?

I would say thats akin to trying to say you know the contents of a novel because you read the first chapter.

No.

But ok, if it makes you feel better.

[dasein18]

We don't all have to agree.

But don't take my word for it - go run a few pugs with Doc, the quintessential pug leader. He's brutal. He's a drill sargeant. This is no fun and games, there's a war going on and these devils have got to die. He yells and screams and curses and wins..

What? Doc is no fun.. I swear I have had fun in runs with him and have the audio to prove it...

[Impaqt]

We don't all have to agree.

I pug a lot.

I'll make this generalization:

People don't listen.

I think it's a basic part of modern day life. You need to tell people 1,000 times to do something before it finally connects. Advertising is a prime example.

Add to the fact that a great many powergamers have at least some level of ADD, and you don't have yourself a winning model for compliance.

You might have had a nice little pug experience that motivated you to create a WOT thread about your latest epiphany. A pug has it's reputation for a valid reason, and pardon me for not taking your wide-eyed account of the promised land to heart.


But don't take my word for it - go run a few pugs with Doc, the quintessential pug leader. He's brutal. He's a drill sargeant. This is no fun and games, there's a war going on and these devils have got to die. He yells and screams and curses and wins.

Go talk to him about how pugs are just poor misunderstood souls looking for a daddy.

I've been on plenty of Docs raids that have failed.

I've led plenty of raid failures myself.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that I think you have to be mary poppins to lead a raid.....

[Gunga]

Communication is required bi-directionally and you are correct Gunga, if the puggers won't communicate and / or take direction... Fail.

Heya Min.

I'm sure Impaqt and a bunch of us are fine raid leaders.

But as I sit here reading this, I'm reminded of my most recent pug which was a nightmare. Not because instruction wasn't given, but because people didn't listen.

So to make a blanket statement that it's the leader's fault because they did a poor job communicating is really misleading and, in fact, just not the case.

[wulfhen]

No.

But ok, if it makes you feel better.

Eh. Whatever.

And as someone who only Pugs, I disagree with your assessment. Most of the good groups I've been in are either because someone has attempted to take charge, and people have listened, or because people are already aware of the quest and know how to quickly slot into a group.

The bad ones? Individual players running off into lots of different directions because nobody is taking charge, or someone who says a few things that nobody listens to.

They're both problems and make a lot of Pugs very annoying.

And we're both wrong. In regards to sweeping generalizations anyway.

[Jiipster]

I just want to make it clear that I was not said WF Wiz from Erebus. Had it been me, there would've been several very, very spectacular wipes.

[Gunga]

because people are already aware of the quest and know how to quickly slot into a group.

We definately do not have to agree.

But this statement alone is precisely why people think they don't have to listen. They know it all, they've done it before, so, headphones off, haste me and give me a fire.

"Whatever" is right.

[wulfhen]

We definately do not have to agree.

But this statement alone is precisely why people think they don't have to listen. They know it all, they've done it before, so, headphones off, haste me and give me a fire.

"Whatever" is right.

People would be wrong if because they know the quest think they don't have to listen in a pug.

And my comment specifically mentions knowing how to slot into the group, which means following someones lead. Be it the heavies, the rogue, or whomever, without any clear instruction to do so. Those are the sort of people you want in a pug where someone doesn't pick up the mic/type out what to do.

And I'm still not sure how you can disagree. From the indication I'm getting, you're saying pugs always 100% fail because nobody listens? It's never any other reason, is that correct?

[Ministry]

...

But as I sit here reading this, I'm reminded of my most recent pug which was a nightmare. Not because instruction wasn't given, but because people didn't listen.

So to make a blanket statement that it's the leader's fault because they did a poor job communicating is really misleading and, in fact, just not the case.

Agreed.

The best pugs can work, despite a poor leader if people know what to do and do it and the best leaders can fail if people just don't/won't do as required.

I've seen the best of leaders like Gaxpar just lose it after seeing a bunch of ill equipt people who just can't do what they need to do (survive, walk and talk at the same time, etc.) and I've seen some of the not so great leaders do well because they have the best people on their raids.

In the end, you will succeed on some raids and fail on others. It's a game, but kinda like life. No biggy. We can post advice and anecdotes and have fun about it all, but in the end... all we can chose to do is count the plat when we succeed and laugh it off and go get a big ole beer when we don't.

[Kyrn]

Of cause, there's the times where the PuG leader is fresh in leading a raid (I don't see how any fresh PuG will manage to get Titan raid done since there are just too many multi-task factors which the leader can't even supervise directly), or is simply due to circumstance unqualified to lead at that portion.

Of cause, I'm speaking for myself here, since I'm the only one I can really represent. Admittedly, my raid completitions are low. (only completed the low level ones (Von, Titan, DQ, *cough*TS*cough*), none of them other than TS over 10))

The first time I lead a VoN raid, I made the critical error of not making sure there's enough people with high wis. This came about because all the other VoN runs I went to at that time, always had people who knew the run, and effortlessly completed the rune section.

Another instance, there was a VoN raid that I was leading, that due to circumstance I was called away for the majority for the raid (I passed leader to someone, said someone returned leader to me when I came back, just in time to down the guardian at the end). Seeing that I don't even know the class levels of a full half of the team, how can I be qualified to make a judgement call on who gets to beat down pillars?

(and on that note, I need to apologise again)

[Seelowe]

first of all, I like this thread.
it starts off with a nice story, continues with ppl taking opposite sides of arguments and becomes somewhat of a consolidation thing later on.

had to chuckle when sergeant Doc was mentioned as an example :D
on that note: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFNeBRc7W7s

anyway, imho the truth is somewhere between the two extremes. a mediocre leader with mediocre members will probably have higher chances of success than an excellent leader with non-cooperative group or a good for nothing leader with some excellent members (there is too many crucial things ppl can do to mess up a raid).

on the other hand some brilliant key players can bring a raid back to life either by taking control of an afubar situation or simply by soloing/duoing/trioing the final stages.

my personal horror experiences with raids that are lead poorly is hound on anything other than normal. there is a bunch of approaches and almost no good ones it seems. in that scenario it doesn't really matter how well you listen. if your raid leader ignores or simply never understood the circumstances under which certain things happen and instructs you to do jack about them. tis ALL him in that case and one of those times, that the pug didn't fail. the leader did hands down in my book.

now, titan for example... different story. you can't be everywhere. like if that fvs puts down a couple of blade barriers on the pillars... nothing the leader can do about it^^ (true story btw and no, not a filthy pugger but one of the guys of a 1337 guild. poor chap misclicked it seems :( )

[Chai]

Nowdays everyone could go afk and still only have a 50% chance of failing on the Reaver.

The air elementals are so easy to kill, you can strangle them with a cordless phone.

You dont carry people through that type of failure. Your backpack does. Or in this case, they sit in the death lobby and listen to smooth jazz music while the raid is completed.

[weyoun]

I was in a pug reaver last night. Mostly guys from a guild I had never ran with or seen before. I don't think I had ever grouped with any of them before. The party leader asked me to explain things as most of the people had only done it once or twice and there were a few first-timers. So I did, in probably more detail than a few would have liked. I had them do the tank/charge method, just to show them the typical way. The tank had some difficulty understanding what he was doing at first but it wasn't long before he was holding agro nicely and the casters were getting charged. In fact, we got 3 balls with elementals immediately - not the best circumstances for a group full of people new to the raid. After it was over I got tells from two different people saying how nice it was that people were explaining things again.

The reason I'm posting this is to reiterate your point. The leader knew better than to try and lead it because he wasn't sure of what he was doing. So he deferred. The difference between your story and this one is just as simple as someone knowing the limits of their ability and wanting to succeed more than to look cool. So I give that party leader credit.

I think 2 named items dropped.

[Impaqt]

I was in a pug reaver last night. Mostly guys from a guild I had never ran with or seen before. I don't think I had ever grouped with any of them before. The party leader asked me to explain things as most of the people had only done it once or twice and there were a few first-timers. So I did, in probably more detail than a few would have liked. I had them do the tank/charge method, just to show them the typical way. The tank had some difficulty understanding what he was doing at first but it wasn't long before he was holding agro nicely and the casters were getting charged. In fact, we got 3 balls with elementals immediately - not the best circumstances for a group full of people new to the raid. After it was over I got tells from two different people saying how nice it was that people were explaining things again.

The reason I'm posting this is to reiterate your point. The leader knew better than to try and lead it because he wasn't sure of what he was doing. So he deferred. The difference between your story and this one is just as simple as someone knowing the limits of their ability and wanting to succeed more than to look cool. So I give that party leader credit.

I think 2 named items dropped.

Who are you and what have you done with lysol?

[Dandonk]

Asking if anyone is new is not sufficient. Its rather pointless in fact. In a Reaver raid, you could have 20 completions and still not have a good idea as to what is actually happening and what needs to be done...

Especially this. Admittedly I'm slow (my RL int is barely above room temp, ask anyone in my guild), but for most raids it's taken me 30-40 completions to be relatively sure of what needs doing where, for all roles. And even now I'm nowhere near "perfect", whatever that is.

[weyoun]

Who are you and what have you done with lysol?

I don't have a problem blasting people when they need it as anyone who's played with me has most likely seen. I also don't have a problem helping when asked. I can't tell you how many times I've taught the titan green side to random puggers (with and without ddoor). If my experience was one-sided all the time I'm sure I would find difficulty pugging as much as I do. Most of the time my shenanigans are just poking fun of something someone is doing that is useless/ineffective OR drilling pile-ons (not running water in 3 gets under my skin) OR the straight-up hating I give moochers and beggars.

[Josh]

Cool Story Bro! eh?

Yes sir!

http://i35.tinypic.com/1231p4o.jpg

Or even better

http://images.starcraftmazter.net/4chan/commie/cool_story_bro.jpg

[Missing_Minds]

Heya Min.

I'm sure Impaqt and a bunch of us are fine raid leaders.

But as I sit here reading this, I'm reminded of my most recent pug which was a nightmare. Not because instruction wasn't given, but because people didn't listen.

So to make a blanket statement that it's the leader's fault because they did a poor job communicating is really misleading and, in fact, just not the case.

Communication is a two way street. If one side is, but the other side isn't... Good luck.

If NO side is, you are doomed to fail.

[MorningStarSE]

This happened to me on S a few day ago /rolleye..

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=236177


I still admit that i had a few wrongs (minor issue, under-level, etc..) though i don't think or believe the group leader had to act like this... :rolleyes:

[Gunga]

Communication is a two way street.

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm233/gungah/captain-obvious.jpg


Captain Obvious thanks you.

[Turgar]

Every raid is different in several aspects, but one factor that seems to be a common thread in every quest/raid to some degree or another, is the noobtard factor.

We can try as hard as we like to complete a raid, but if one person does just the right thing it's a wipe. If this wasn't there, raids wouldn't be a challenge for anyone.

The downside of all this is that when we raid with people we don't know, the possibility that they are just a pileon or worse, a person who will wipe the raid with a critical decision is unknown.

I'd like to say that I have never made a mistake that caused a failure, but I did learn. One of those key things I learned the hard way, is to take leap of faith off my key bindings when healing on a raid. Ever have your healer fly off the platform into the Lava in an Epic DQ run because their kid walked up and touched their keyboard?

Lol that was the last raid I did with my kids staying with me lol.

The point of this story, is that people do stupid stuff. Pugs fail for many reasons; sometimes its a critical error, sometimes its the raid leader giving poor directions, and sometimes it's just because 75% of the people in the raid are gimp/pileons.

MyDDO at least can give some insight into the gimp factor, so thank you Turbine for small graces.

[Wyrmnax]

Communication is a two way street. If one side is, but the other side isn't... Good luck.

If NO side is, you are doomed to fail.

If no side is, you set up fraps.

[synkos]

Well, let me chime in with my shroud experience yesterday. It was a leader unknown to me, second person to join was a lvl17 monk with 25% fort and a belt of resistance. I should've skipped it on that. I hate MyDDO. I don't wanna know things like that. I don't care. But he got some people from respectable guilds and I said what the hell, I'll hop in. I mean, it's shroud right? Everyone's done it xxxx's of times..

The leader is micless but types vigorously and I respect that. Those guys from respectable guilds take initiative and we chatted away setting up things. Everything goes smoothly, one of the better portal dps groups I've seen. The leader gives clear instructions on what to do. We go without a hitch to 4 and then we jump on harry. Healers agree on who's first in healing and it all starts. I start noticing that my red bar is going way more down than it should before I get hit with a heal. First thing I thought is "uh-oh". I was getting healed from almost dead to half. At that point we start wiping, from the lowest HP guys to me (only barb so I'm guessing one of the biggest red bars if not the biggest). I thought about my options, maybe jumping out and whipping some pots? It was too late at that point, my best bet was that I'll catch more heals at harry..

No communication whatsoever. Nobody said anything. I wanted to yell out "we need those heals faster" but I don't feel like throwing around demands when I still consider myself new to the whole shebang. The only thing the leader managed to say was "well that's a wipe". The other cleric said nothing.

Well, that ruined gaming for the evening and I went on doing other things, cursing myself for staying silent even tho I risked being called an idiot. but come on. someone? anyone? there were guys from those respectable guilds that I've mentioned before. They're probably not all that new. Couldn't anyone say anything ? I'm not gonna stay silent anymore and enjoy another "well that's a wipe" on something that really isn't nuclear science..

Maybe I'm most to blame for not screaming out for the other healer to chime in. I'll just blame myself.

/venting

[Lleren]

Heh, I have certainly experienced a few Leader fail pugs, more then a few. Happens in many games.
I'll let ya know I'm new to it.
All I ask is some direction, an explanation of what we are doing beforehand would be nice too.

If you want to ask if I have the proper weapons to break DR feel free. I think I do, but I would love confirmation, protects me from being blamed as the person who didn't have the right stuff. Heck now I can link them in raidchat, or to you in a tell even.

[Ministry]

... But he got some people from respectable guilds and I said what the hell, I'll hop in. I mean, it's shroud right? Everyone's done it xxxx's of times..

... there were guys from those respectable guilds that I've mentioned before. They're probably not all that new. Couldn't anyone say anything ? I'm not gonna stay silent anymore and enjoy another "well that's a wipe" on something that really isn't nuclear science..

Maybe I'm most to blame for not screaming out for the other healer to chime in. I'll just blame myself.

/venting

2 Things...

1 - Who were these respectable guilds? (no I don't want to see them listed)

I think what some people see as respectable guilds, others may not. I've heard a number of people talk up their guild as the end all be all, best guild around... That scares me. The guilds / guild members I've run with on shrouds or other raids over the past couple years only wipe on very weird and horrible lag type situations. I've been on 2 shroud wipes in 2 years. So, this part really confuses me. I'm very curious as to what constitutes a "respectable" guild in your mind or someone elses. In the end, even the most respectable guild can wipe on a raid... you should have seen us mess up on the Abbot last night... too funny... and no, I'm not saying we have the most or even close to the most respectable guild... just a pretty decent bunch of players; but even those much more capable and respectable guilds than ours can fail occasionally as well.

2 - There are many factors that can cause heals to come in slower... Lag, DPS Lag, Cleric's PC acting up, Clerics w/o Quicken, Clerics w/o empower, Clerics not over healing to help each other if required, etc... etc...

Yelling or blaming clerics or the team will not help you. I do believe that most clerics at shroud raid level know they are suppose to heal.

I continuously hear and read about all these raid wipes and think that part of what you are stating is correct. You need to have a few things in place...

1 - A leader who knows what they are doing and ideally has a mic and is calm and speaks legibly.

2 - People on the team with the proper weapons, items, feats, metamagics, etc.

3 - ALTERNATE STRATEGIES!!!! This one is the most important, and here's why...

On most pugs you are going to see monks like the one you listed, a few members that are spec'ed for success and a few that aren't. The job of the leader and in most cases is for the team to quickly understand their strengths and limits and accomodate. You must have heard by now about all Bard or all Rogue groups going through the shroud to completion. All Rogue... so scroll healing ftw. If an all Rogue group can succeed on Hard with scroll healing, they must have divised a plan to succeed.

In the end, yup... take responsibility for any team you are on... but how you do it is is the key.

GL in the future.

[Turgar]

2 Things...

1 - Who were these respectable guilds? (no I don't want to see them listed)

I think what some people see as respectable guilds, others may not. I've heard a number of people talk up their guild as the end all be all, best guild around... That scares me. The guilds / guild members I've run with on shrouds or other raids over the past couple years only wipe on very weird and horrible lag type situations. I've been on 2 shroud wipes in 2 years. So, this part really confuses me. I'm very curious as to what constitutes a "respectable" guild in your mind or someone elses. In the end, even the most respectable guild can wipe on a raid... you should have seen us mess up on the Abbot last night... too funny... and no, I'm not saying we have the most or even close to the most respectable guild... just a pretty decent bunch of players; but even those much more capable and respectable guilds than ours can fail occasionally as well.

2 - There are many factors that can cause heals to come in slower... Lag, DPS Lag, Cleric's PC acting up, Clerics w/o Quicken, Clerics w/o empower, Clerics not over healing to help each other if required, etc... etc...

Yelling or blaming clerics or the team will not help you. I do believe that most clerics at shroud raid level know they are suppose to heal.

I continuously hear and read about all these raid wipes and think that part of what you are stating is correct. You need to have a few things in place...

1 - A leader who knows what they are doing and ideally has a mic and is calm and speaks legibly.

2 - People on the team with the proper weapons, items, feats, metamagics, etc.

3 - ALTERNATE STRATEGIES!!!! This one is the most important, and here's why...

On most pugs you are going to see monks like the one you listed, a few members that are spec'ed for success and a few that aren't. The job of the leader and in most cases is for the team to quickly understand their strengths and limits and accomodate. You must have heard by now about all Bard or all Rogue groups going through the shroud to completion. All Rogue... so scroll healing ftw. If an all Rogue group can succeed on Hard with scroll healing, they must have divised a plan to succeed.

In the end, yup... take responsibility for any team you are on... but how you do it is is the key.

GL in the future.


+1 Good post man.

[weyoun]

The leader gives clear instructions on what to do. We go without a hitch to 4 and then we jump on harry. Healers agree on who's first in healing and it all starts. I start noticing that my red bar is going way more down than it should before I get hit with a heal. First thing I thought is "uh-oh". I was getting healed from almost dead to half. At that point we start wiping, from the lowest HP guys to me (only barb so I'm guessing one of the biggest red bars if not the biggest). I thought about my options, maybe jumping out and whipping some pots? It was too late at that point, my best bet was that I'll catch more heals at harry..

No communication whatsoever. Nobody said anything. I wanted to yell out "we need those heals faster" but I don't feel like throwing around demands when I still consider myself new to the whole shebang. The only thing the leader managed to say was "well that's a wipe". The other cleric said nothing.

Well, that ruined gaming for the evening and I went on doing other things, cursing myself for staying silent even tho I risked being called an idiot. but come on. someone? anyone? there were guys from those respectable guilds that I've mentioned before. They're probably not all that new. Couldn't anyone say anything ? I'm not gonna stay silent anymore and enjoy another "well that's a wipe" on something that really isn't nuclear science..

Maybe I'm most to blame for not screaming out for the other healer to chime in. I'll just blame myself.

/venting

One of the things I ask when I'm on my cleric/fvs in a pug is who has the most hp and who has healing amp. If you're healing on the weakest link you're not doing yourself any favors because sometimes even DDOJesus can't keep them alive. You want to heal on the most survivable toon AND there has to be good communication between you (the healer) and the survivable toon when it comes getting out of the blades or staying in to finish him. You can put the cleric cap on who you are healing too - whatever. The point is don't heal on the drow ranger mixing it up with 250 hps soaking wet. Heal on the 700 hp human barb with the pimped healing amp. The other's health bars are still your cue as to when to throw the heal, but you land them on the guy who's going to be there after a few lagged out DBFs (with or without evasion). There are a lot of toons that are just not worth the effort to keep alive (my apologies to the rogue I let die in part IV and V last night, you just don't have the hp's to hang in there with the lag as it was).

[dasein18]

One of the things I ask when I'm on my cleric/fvs in a pug is who has the most hp and who has healing amp. If you're healing on the weakest link you're not doing yourself any favors because sometimes even DDOJesus can't keep them alive. You want to heal on the most survivable toon AND there has to be good communication between you (the healer) and the survivable toon when it comes getting out of the blades or staying in to finish him. You can put the cleric cap on who you are healing too - whatever. The point is don't heal on the drow ranger mixing it up with 250 hps soaking wet. Heal on the 700 hp human barb with the pimped healing amp. The other's health bars are still your cue as to when to throw the heal, but you land them on the guy who's going to be there after a few lagged out DBFs (with or without evasion). There are a lot of toons that are just not worth the effort to keep alive (my apologies to the rogue I let die in part IV and V last night, you just don't have the hp's to hang in there with the lag as it was).

As a healer by habit and trade...I approve this message.

Nothing worse then targetting the weakest.. they weak dies and you lose your target for mass cures on the group..which leads to more deaths of the next weakest. Alternatively it can be fun if your bored with your 100+ shroud run.

[synkos]

2 Things...

1 - Who were these respectable guilds? (no I don't want to see them listed)

I think what some people see as respectable guilds, others may not...
..I'm very curious as to what constitutes a "respectable" guild in your mind or someone elses.


Well, I consider them to be respectable from the info I gathered from the forums. People mention some guilds all the time in positive notes so I caught up on that. I wont name any in particular, but I will mention that one was from "One of The Two". Other then that I base my opinion on the signatures of people that tend to make quality content on the forums.



In the end, even the most respectable guild can wipe on a raid... you should have seen us mess up on the Abbot last night... too funny... and no, I'm not saying we have the most or even close to the most respectable guild... just a pretty decent bunch of players; but even those much more capable and respectable guilds than ours can fail occasionally as well.


I agree that everything is possible. However, later on you mentioned you only witnessed 2 shroud wipes in 2 years. So I'm already ahead of you there in what, 6 months of play? But 99.9% of the time I can write it off to lag. The rest goes to bad play I guess.




2 - There are many factors that can cause heals to come in slower... Lag, DPS Lag, Cleric's PC acting up, Clerics w/o Quicken, Clerics w/o empower, Clerics not over healing to help each other if required, etc... etc...

Yelling or blaming clerics or the team will not help you. I do believe that most clerics at shroud raid level know they are suppose to heal.


Well, I know about lag, and when we had lag wipes I bit my tongue. There's nothing you can do about that. I can also somewhat understand people's PC problems and individual connection problems. But it doesn't make me any less frustrated when an entire group fails because of such flukes. And whether or not they know what to do, well.. I guess some might say "walk a mile in a healer's shoes" and I could agree. I wanted to say it's the game's fault for basically making us rely on one person that might have a flaky connection or a lag spike at that moment. And I would be right. But then someone would correctly state "but you had 2 healers, not one". When the "backup" or "2nd round" or whatever you want to call the other healer sees that our bars are going from bottom to half full he *should* take that as a sign for "I better chime in". I haven't walked in those shoes, but I can't change the fact that it's something I *would* do.




I continuously hear and read about all these raid wipes and think that part of what you are stating is correct. You need to have a few things in place...

...

3 - ALTERNATE STRATEGIES!!!! This one is the most important, and here's why...

...If an all Rogue group can succeed on Hard with scroll healing, they must have divised a plan to succeed.


I'm really the most antielitist person you might run into, but I hereby state that this is impossible with a pug of 12 people. Not possible. You can be lucky if you get people to follow ONE strategy you lay out, but when things go out of the frame it turns to every man to themselves. It takes skilled and experienced players in vital roles (clerics, good dps in this case) to close that can of worms again. Yes, i've heard and even seen the sshot of the all-rogue group. But from what I gather they are all experienced players with good pre-devised tactics. Again, doesn't apply to a run-of-the-mill pug we get every day..

Anyways, I'll keep positive and try to ponder on my failures and see what I could've done to change things. Now and in the future. Thanks for the advice.

Sorry for chopping up your post, hope you don't feel I put anything out of context. If I have I still don't think our opinions differ that much and I didn't really counter you on any point.

Everything I said is an opinion of a not so experienced DDO player, and an experienced online RPG player that's used to groups of 10 (and as a disclaimer, I never played wow..)

[Magusrex777]

I could not agree with the OP more. I have been leading raids since raids existed in MMOs. I have led countless raids with PUGs with inexperienced and under-geared people in many games. The skills required to lead effectively are the same in all games. My raids/groups almost always succeed and if they do not. I consider it my fault, ALWAYS. This is the critical aspect of leadership, ownership and responsibility for the group is the only way you will get better. Leading a group of people who have done same thing hundreds of times is not any kind of accomplishment. Leading new players with different skill sets into new content is the real deal.

Rarely, if ever do people not listen to me. It has everything to do with the confidence I show when giving instructions. I am clear and concise. I ask the people I have given the key tasks to repeat back to me what they are going to do. I make it known that I expect people to treat each other with RESPECT. So I guess myself and the other good leaders out there are just LUCKY, we just don’t get the people who refuse to listen to join our groups. Just maybe, we know what we are talking about, and there is more to leadership than simply knowing what to do and it begins with taking RESPONSIBILITY for your group and not blaming FAILURE on anyone but yourself.

[Eladiun]

You make a great point and it's not only true for raids. I was doing an SC run the other day and the leader was bringing a friend through who was new to the quest and basically giving a running commentary on what to do next. Even though I know the quest like the back of my hand it seemed smoother... No confusion on pulling or who was grabbing the shards or whether we were going for conquest. I understand some people are shy or don't like leading but a good leader can get make any quest run smoother.

There are people who refuse to be led or refuse to listen but they are few...

[bokaboka]

I lead a lot of PUG's and I dig the threads discussing the role we play in DDO.

The other night in VoN 5: The rogue wracked up double digit deaths with the lightning hall because he was listening to a mic'd Clr instead of my instructions; someone managed to fall off the platform by the North-chest; someone else apparently suicided, then DC'd while I was organizing a rescue for the first casualty. No one seemed to be reading anything.
I just bought a mic earlier this afternoon.

The moral of the story
I'm always thinking about how to be a better leader, and I hope that my Puggers are always trying to improve their skill. If I didn't try to think that way, I'd probably have given up DDO a long time ago. Hopefully everyone in the OP's PUG learned some lessons.

[DoctorWhofan]

So last night I was doing a little toon maintinance and got a Tell... "Care to do a Reaver Raid?" or something to that extent....

He was polite so I figured, what the heck..... I switched to a cleric (I was on my melee FvS and assumed he wanted a healer) and Joined the group.

It was filling slowly so I said I could solo cleric it no problem.. we wound up filling anyway rather quickly so no big deal.

I looked around the group... WF Wiz From Erebus..... Fighter from Inferus Sus.... COuple old friends who just returned to the game from Umber Hulks... and the rest were unknown to me....

Not terible I thought, should go ok.

The leader had asked a couple times if this was anyones "First run" and of course go no response.. Typical... People dont admit that too often. and really, in a Reaver, its not that critical with a few necessary instructions.

We step in and buff, I guess the leader was gonna tank, but didnt make that clear to anyone, as we were about to start, he said something about Lag and rebooting his router.... SOmeone trggered the start and off we went....

I quickly realized we had at least 3 people beating on the reaver... ANd the person who was drawing aggro was pulling the reaver into a corner and holding him there facing the corner... Nearly Immpossible to get charges liek that...
I asked him to pull the reaver out of the corner a couple times He did once, but soon ended up back in the corner... The Raid leader made a couple short comments agreeing with me I think, but never took control of anything. I was not about to since it wasnt my Raid.

ANyway, after a few minutes, I ran out of Spell Points, Couldnt heal fast enough, and got killed. Party wipe ensued.

"Wow, didnt expect that would happen" I thought to myself.... The Leader of the group makes a comment about "Just another Pug Raid Failure"

After everyone recalls out, Most of the group decides to try again... We kept 11 of the 12... Pretty impressive for a misreble failure if ya ask me.... as we are getting ready to reform,. the leader asks again "Is this anyones first time"?

At that Point, I had to speak up...

"Ya know, you still have to actually lead the raid and provide instructions for folks. DOesnt matter if you have 12 peple that know what to do in here, if they all start doing the same thing, the raids gonna fail again"

"Fine, You lead it then" Ding. Alandael has the star. He then said something about being Drunk.....

"OK" I reply.

we break and I reform the group, pop up an lfm and grab an extra Cleric to replace the 1 person we lost to help heal and we go back in.... After a few entertaining tells from friends in the group, and one from the former leader asking me if I was realy gonna lead the raid this time... Obviously, he had no idea who I was... we stepped back in.....


I provided my standard Reaver Raid instructions.

Designated the Tank (Inferus Sus dude) Provided an outline of where the firewalls should be, and made sure I was clear on who was responsible for what. If your not the tank, you are on Ele duty. Pretty simple. But necessary in a Pug.

Not sure what was up, but this was a pretty strange Instance... The tank did Great, we quickly got our buff and all was going smooth. The second cleric I got got killed somehow... Oh well.... then it got weird... I went in for a new Charge.. saw the reaver throwing the charges, Saw the annimation.. but it didnt register on me...
It didnt register on anyone... We hit some lag spikes.... I got incapped somehow.... Things were starting to go Pear shapped..... we lost nearly half the group in an instant.....

I got a Heal of some sort and got back on my feat.. whew.... I quickly reassess the situation. Lost the Tank.... but the rest of my friends were still good to go.... I assigned a new tank and we went back to work. The instance setled down and I was able to get a new charge, the new Tank got Fly... and took off for the lever... He made it, but was unsure as to how it worked. He pulled it, but when I asked if the lever was pulled, I got no response.
He was the only melee left.... and now he was up in the ceiling not doing anything.... Did he not pull the lever?

All the while the Erebus WF Wiz was desperately trying to get a new charge, the other sorc was laying down a firewall here and there.... Our only hope was send someone else to the lever..... SO I went... The wiz got his charge and I told him I was going to the lever, as I got to the lever, I found our melee standing there wondering why the barrier didnt go down.... The one that doesnt go down until the raid is over.... WIth the lever locked down and pulled....

Oh well, Had to check.... Back to the floor.. Storm reaver finaly succumbs to the Firewalls.... and we move on to the puzzle....

It seemed like an Eternity.... No way would we have enough TIme to do the puzzle... But surprisingly, we had plenty of time left... So much in fact that I wonder if the Timer was altered at some point. We had almost half the timer left.....

THe puzzle is done in 5 moves, (Yes, I used a Solver for this run because It was late and we already had one fail... Just didnt want to take the chance)

Congrats get thrown around.. Some raid loot dropped... and everyone is happy.....

Overall, It was a prety Fun run considering......


Cool Story Bro! eh?

SUre, but my point is this....

Most pug raids dont fail "Because they are Pugs" They fail because they dont know what to do. Someone who takes it upon themselves to lead a raid needs to step up and Lead the raid. Asking if anyone is new is not sufficient. Its rather pointless in fact. In a Reaver raid, you could have 20 completions and still not have a good idea as to what is actually happening and what needs to be done...


As a Raid Leader,

Know the raid yourself. You dont have to be an expert. But you should be able to provide direction to the party.

Provide Clear instructions on how you want things to be done. If you dont know, ask for help or suggestions. Figure out who you can Rely on. Figure out who's expendable.

Step up and Take control of the situation when things start to get out of hand.


When things go wrong, they will NOT correct themselves. it will continue to get worse until the party wipes or until someone can get things back on track.

Oh, and this didnt happen last light, but seriously.... Yelling at folks and calling them noobs and saying they suck cause the raid is about to fail is not a good way to rally the troops around you to get a raid (Or any quest) back on track. AS a matter of fact, thats when I stop caring about a completion.



So anyway, Welcome back to the game Anne and Sig.

Thanks for doing a great job Tanking NickF

and to the WF Wiz who's name escapes me right now, You reaffirmed my faith in Erebus. You folks are top notch.

To the folks who wound up in the Penalty Box.... Sorry about that... Nothing I could of done differently..... but Hopefully you learned something about the raid at least.....

QFT.

and a DUH. If people can't figure this out already, you have worst problems than being a bad PuG leader.

Nice post Impaqt

[sigtrent]

Thanks for taking that one under your wing Impaqt :)

It was interesting, seemed like a cake walk but things definitely went weird on both missions. I think the first leader was just used to auto wins on the Reaver, but since I almost always pug it I've seen plenty of failures. Usually its the tank not understanding what they are supposed to do, or the casters throw down firewalls all over creation aground the Reaver and creating the wandering train of death. In that particular one I recall trying to keep people alive with my wand... on my wizard... not so good.

Nice work keeping the crew together on that second attempt. Things looked pretty bad but I really like it when a dire situation is rescued. It was fun running the puzzle for you solo under tight deadline and succeeding.

I was surprised coming back that the elementals were less an issue than they were. Harder to kill but less likely to send everyone spinning across the floor.

I agree on leadership, its the most vital element in a group. Sometimes you just don't need it because the challenge is trivial, but in a pug its the key thing that makes the difference between disaster and success in a challenging quest. I'd also say that leadership in a guild or quest actually translates pretty well to real life. I learned a lot of good lessons in DDO on that account and put them to use in my job to good effect.

[Uamhas]

Personally, I try not to lead things, because I am a martinet and I know it. I usually offer an apology, but it's just how I am, though I prefer not to make the game-time of other people miserable. I'm here to have fun, not suck away the fun of others. However, when it's a quest I know well, and I don't feel like failing, well... I get kinda bossy.

Specific example: Crucible on Cannith. I love that quest. I led a few successful Crucible runs on my cleric. My honey (Hound) had returned to the game and got up to the level that he could run it, too. He joined a relatively inexperienced pug with one or two guildies, and the name Berryblack happened to come up in conversation. One of the fellows mentioned how bossy I was (the exact terminology was somewhat more colorful) and also suggested that Hound put a leash on his wife. They then proceeded to fail. Spectacularly. Twice. Said individual apologized to Hound for his uncomplimentary comments, saying how he hadn't realized how easily things could go wrong... but the fact remains- he had come away from an experience with my leadership with a not-so-very-happy-warm-fuzzy. I'm pretty sure he wasn't the only one to feel that way, either.

Kudos to those folks that successfully lead raids. As a cleric on about 1/2 the raids I run, I will often contribute to the instructions when I feel it pertinent, but I generally try very hard to keep my nose out of a competent leader's oatmeal.

I also pug a lot, and as someone with mediocre skills, I appreciate good direction.

Oh, and I ramble. A lot. :D What were we talking about?

[Braegan]

Specific example: Crucible on Cannith. Oh, and I ramble. A lot. :D What were we talking about?


You on Cannith too? Look me up I do believe I owe you a Velah raid level approp :p

Sorry Op so derailing atm :)

[Daggaz]

Man I wish I could group with you or yours for stuff like this.

Im a new player, but hardly a noob.. I got into my first reaver raid the other day, PUG of course, and the first thing I do is tell the whole group that I have never run this particular raid before and that unfortunately among other things, I have no possibility for sound atm. Leader says its not a problem, so im like cool, and ask if anybody wants to fill me in quickly on chat on any important duties other than follow the crowd and keep people alive (playing a cleric).

Total abject silence.. For five or ten minutes as we fill, nothing. We enter the raid, and still silence. Nobody tells me anything, not a word. I get my back to the wall like the others (not looking up cuz i dont know) and sit there and watch. See them tanking the reaver, every now and then the tank is hurt and swings out closer to me, so I toss a heal without moving too far from the wall. Im the only cleric, the other healer is a fvs.

Seems to be going fairly well, but at some point the tank gets hit real hard and doesnt come running, so I run out towards him and toss a heal. Im too close to the reaver and get hit with a fly tho. Which I suppose wouldnt be the end of the world in most groups, and probably a good thing in the right hands, but in this case, among the many things that were never once said were the words "remove feather fall."

Three. Easy. Words. I rocket to the ceiling and jiggernaught thru spikes faster than I can respond to heal myself. Dead in a pinch, FVS has to take over heals. They finish, rather quickly I must say, but I felt like absolutely dead weight. Thing is, I also felt that it was entirely the groups fault in this case, and wrote the lead's name down as a guy and most likely a guild I wouldn't pug with anytime soon.

[Visty]

Man I wish I could group with you or yours for stuff like this.

Im a new player, but hardly a noob.. I got into my first reaver raid the other day, PUG of course, and the first thing I do is tell the whole group that I have never run this particular raid before and that unfortunately among other things, I have no possibility for sound atm. Leader says its not a problem, so im like cool, and ask if anybody wants to fill me in quickly on chat on any important duties other than follow the crowd and keep people alive (playing a cleric).

Total abject silence.. For five or ten minutes as we fill, nothing. We enter the raid, and still silence. Nobody tells me anything, not a word. I get my back to the wall like the others (not looking up cuz i dont know) and sit there and watch. See them tanking the reaver, every now and then the tank is hurt and swings out closer to me, so I toss a heal without moving too far from the wall. Im the only cleric, the other healer is a fvs.

Seems to be going fairly well, but at some point the tank gets hit real hard and doesnt come running, so I run out towards him and toss a heal. Im too close to the reaver and get hit with a fly tho. Which I suppose wouldnt be the end of the world in most groups, and probably a good thing in the right hands, but in this case, among the many things that were never once said were the words "remove feather fall."

Three. Easy. Words. I rocket to the ceiling and jiggernaught thru spikes faster than I can respond to heal myself. Dead in a pinch, FVS has to take over heals. They finish, rather quickly I must say, but I felt like absolutely dead weight. Thing is, I also felt that it was entirely the groups fault in this case, and wrote the lead's name down as a guy and most likely a guild I wouldn't pug with anytime soon.
it doesnt matter if you have featherfall in reaver or not, if he does reverse gravity everyone goes up. you just hapened to be too close to the middle and thus flew into the spikes

[cupajoe]

One of the things I ask when I'm on my cleric/fvs in a pug is who has the most hp and who has healing amp. If you're healing on the weakest link you're not doing yourself any favors because sometimes even DDOJesus can't keep them alive. You want to heal on the most survivable toon AND there has to be good communication between you (the healer) and the survivable toon when it comes getting out of the blades or staying in to finish him. You can put the cleric cap on who you are healing too - whatever. The point is don't heal on the drow ranger mixing it up with 250 hps soaking wet. Heal on the 700 hp human barb with the pimped healing amp. The other's health bars are still your cue as to when to throw the heal, but you land them on the guy who's going to be there after a few lagged out DBFs (with or without evasion). There are a lot of toons that are just not worth the effort to keep alive (my apologies to the rogue I let die in part IV and V last night, you just don't have the hp's to hang in there with the lag as it was).


As a squishy rogue with only 312 (unbuffed) HP, I really hate hearing this. Don't get me wrong I agree with you and think this is really good advice, but ****, the truth hurts. +1 rep to you for telling it like it is.

Part 4 of the Shroud is one of the many places where HP matters. I am still working on increasing mine. I should be able to get mine up to 367 soon and that still isn't enough!

[weyoun]

As a squishy rogue with only 312 (unbuffed) HP, I really hate hearing this. Don't get me wrong I agree with you and think this is really good advice, but ****, the truth hurts. +1 rep to you for telling it like it is.

Part 4 of the Shroud is one of the many places where HP matters. I am still working on increasing mine. I should be able to get mine up to 367 soon and that still isn't enough!

Right now the shroud is lagging brutally, especially in part IV and V. I've had several parties show no damage and then instantly, and I mean instantly, most of the melees are dead. As a healer you have to be aware that the high hitpoint toon is the party's key to survival in these circumstances. In part IV, if you have two high hp toons, its not a bad idea for one healer to heal on one the the other to heal on the other (high hp) toon while the blades are in. That way, if you lose one target there is still another target from who the heals can cascade.

[PopeJual]

we Don't All Have To Agree.

I Pug A Lot.

I'll Make This Generalization:


TLDR.

Something about not listening I think?

[weyoun]

Man I wish I could group with you or yours for stuff like this.

Im a new player, but hardly a noob.. I got into my first reaver raid the other day, PUG of course, and the first thing I do is tell the whole group that I have never run this particular raid before and that unfortunately among other things, I have no possibility for sound atm. Leader says its not a problem, so im like cool, and ask if anybody wants to fill me in quickly on chat on any important duties other than follow the crowd and keep people alive (playing a cleric).

Total abject silence.. For five or ten minutes as we fill, nothing. We enter the raid, and still silence. Nobody tells me anything, not a word. I get my back to the wall like the others (not looking up cuz i dont know) and sit there and watch. See them tanking the reaver, every now and then the tank is hurt and swings out closer to me, so I toss a heal without moving too far from the wall. Im the only cleric, the other healer is a fvs.

Seems to be going fairly well, but at some point the tank gets hit real hard and doesnt come running, so I run out towards him and toss a heal. Im too close to the reaver and get hit with a fly tho. Which I suppose wouldnt be the end of the world in most groups, and probably a good thing in the right hands, but in this case, among the many things that were never once said were the words "remove feather fall."

Three. Easy. Words. I rocket to the ceiling and jiggernaught thru spikes faster than I can respond to heal myself. Dead in a pinch, FVS has to take over heals. They finish, rather quickly I must say, but I felt like absolutely dead weight. Thing is, I also felt that it was entirely the groups fault in this case, and wrote the lead's name down as a guy and most likely a guild I wouldn't pug with anytime soon.

Flab is right. Feather fall on/off has no bearing on the reaver's anti-gravity effect. Fly is not what you experienced. Fly is a different effect that allows someone to pull the lever in the west ceiling tunnel and drops inner barrier to the puzzle room where the raid is finished. If you fly the east ceiling tunnel there is a lever in there that drops soul stones to the center of the main room. This tunnel is rarely used anymore.

I wouldn't be too hard on the party leader. It is, after all, a reaver. Its not unusual for people to have 500+ completions. They take it for granted. A great number warforged casters, sorcs with UMD and clerics/fvs can solo the raid. If I'm in there on mine (and its not my group) I have no worries at all because I'll finish it even if everyone else dies. People like me are ubiquitous, ergo the lazy nature of the raid.

The other thing is that many people have piked for so long in that raid that they actually don't know where to fly or how to do the puzzle.

[Visty]

Flab is right.

im not flab :/

[weyoun]

im not flab :/

My bad. Being Flab is not a bad thing, but my apologies nonetheless.