To DDO/Turbine

[ShadowHand2]

Can I have a Dev or the like show me the link or area that states the Reputation system is a rule that we HAVE to use or is it in fact merely a system. A system is not the same as a rule...and as such if we do not want to be a part of a option where is the rule that says we have to use it? The disable option is not a disable option it only removes the view of your points you do not want to be a part of. So are we forced to use a system that is not a rule?

Again, just a link that shows we HAVE to use it or a place where we can opt out of a system/tool on the forums?

[smatt]

Unless it's changed from version 3.5.1, this is version 3.7.1 V-Bulletin won't allow a single user to be removed from the reputation system.

It makes no difference when it's turned of nobody can see nobody cares anyways ;)

[Aranticus]

Can I have a Dev or the like show me the link or area that states the Reputation system is a rule that we HAVE to use or is it in fact merely a system. A system is not the same as a rule...and as such if we do not want to be a part of a option where is the rule that says we have to use it? The disable option is not a disable option it only removes the view of your points you do not want to be a part of. So are we forced to use a system that is not a rule?

Again, just a link that shows we HAVE to use it or a place where we can opt out of a system/tool on the forums?

there is no rule to say you have to use it. you can choose to give positive or negative rep. however, there is no way you can choose not to recieve positive or negative rep

systems are not rules but they are not something you can just ignore too. take macdonalds as an example. their system is you queue up, order food, get food, pay and you bring food to your table. try bypassing the system and you will find that you will not get served (unless special reasons ie in a wheelchair)

tolero made a post just a couple up from yours in the rep thread that seems to imply that the rep system will be there all along and there is no way to turn it off

[Aranticus]

Unless it's changed from version 3.5.1, this is version 3.7.1 V-Bulletin won't allow a single user to be removed from the reputation system.

It makes no difference when it's turned of nobody can see nobody cares anyways ;)

if you check his posting history, you will know why he cares ;)

[ShadowHand2]

if you check his posting history, you will know why he cares ;)

Pointing out someone's history that is not on topic is not needed or wanted...stick with that post and stop bring negative attention to fellow posters like you just did.

Add something insightful and helpful or walk away. I ask for a link to show where we HAVE to use it. If there is no rule then then there is no obligation. It is a system not a rule check your facts before responding will be helpful to us all.

[Rilean]

Pointing out someone's history that is not on topic is not needed or wanted...stick with that post and stop bring negative attention to fellow posters like you just did.

Add something insightful and helpful or walk away. I ask for a link to show where we HAVE to use it. If there is no rule then then there is no obligation. It is a system not a rule check your facts before responding will be helpful to us all.

Dude wanting something insightful on these forums isnt realistic situation now is it :)

[ShadowHand2]

Unless it's changed from version 3.5.1, this is version 3.7.1 V-Bulletin won't allow a single user to be removed from the reputation system.

It makes no difference when it's turned of nobody can see nobody cares anyways ;)

But where is it listed we signed up for a system? A rule yes DDO can change rules as they see fit. Yet a system is not a rule it is merely a tool. A tool we are forced to be a part of even if we wish to disable it since it is flawed. If lie detectors were 100% accrute...why are they not allowed in a court of law. They are flawed tools designed for show, and not a law or a rule.

Again, I wish to be shown a link or place where I or others signed on to be forced to use a tool? Be part of a system whether we like it or not....how is that allowing choice? Where is freewill? Options to disable is a lie as you are still part of the "system" So either we have no choice and are being dictated by others or give us a real option on user panel to disable a tool.

[ShadowHand2]

Dude wanting something insightful on these forums isnt realistic situation now is it :)

nor is thinking people really use debate rules either...it is simply does not exist. :)

[Aranticus]

But where is it listed we signed up for a system? A rule yes DDO can change rules as they see fit. Yet a system is not a rule it is merely a tool. A tool we are forced to be a part of even if we wish to disable it since it is flawed. If lie detectors were 100% accrute...why are they not allowed in a court of law. They are flawed tools designed for show, and not a law or a rule.

Again, I wish to be shown a link or place where I or others signed on to be forced to use a tool? Be part of a system whether we like it or not....how is that allowing choice? Where is freewill? Options to disable is a lie as you are still part of the "system" So either we have no choice and are being dictated by others or give us a real option on user panel to disable a tool.

i have never let the rep system stop me from anything. as of now, the only people able to give neg rep out is probably the devs (and possibly borror0). whatever bad rep you recieve is likely going to come from them. they define whats right and whats wrong. is it foolproof? no, they have their bad hair days

if there is something on it, look in the official reputation thread. yeah you could start your freedom of speech rabble again but i suggest you read up about it. i'm not american but spent a year studying american history and i can tell ya your rights doesnt apply here

[ShadowHand2]

i have never let the rep system stop me from anything. as of now, the only people able to give neg rep out is probably the devs (and possibly borror0). whatever bad rep you recieve is likely going to come from them. they define whats right and whats wrong. is it foolproof? no, they have their bad hair days

if there is something on it, look in the official reputation thread. yeah you could start your freedom of speech rabble again but i suggest you read up about it. i'm not american but spent a year studying american history and i can tell ya your rights doesnt apply here

Incorrect freedom of speech on the INTERNET is upheld by the US Supreme court....but you knew that right? Try again. Off topic and a derailment. Where is the link as I have ask from above?


Ps...for your education of the 1st Amendment on matters of on the INTERNET.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union_v._Ashcroft_(2002)

one of many cases, all of which have nothing to do with my post. Please stay on course and stop derailing. If not giving me a link or such I have nothing more to say to you.

[Aranticus]

Incorrect freedom of speech on the INTERNET is upheld by the US Supreme court....but you knew that right? Try again. Off topic and a derailment. Where is the link as I have ask from above?


Ps...for your education of the 1st Amendment on matters of on the INTERNET.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_Liberties_Union_v._Ashcroft_(2002)

one of many cases, all of which have nothing to do with my post. Please stay on course and stop derailing. If not giving me a link or such I have nothing more to say to you.

lol

[TechNoFear]

Incorrect freedom of speech on the INTERNET is upheld by the US Supreme court

but your location states Australia....

Australia does not have protection of freedom of speech, apart from being a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

[ShadowHand2]

but your location states Australia....

Australia does not have protection of freedom of speech, apart from being a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Location does not say nationality now does it? Do not assume. And back to the SUBJECT as I posted above please.

[Borror0]

the only people able to give neg rep out is probably the devs (and possibly borror0)
The list is longer than that. You have to add Impaqt, Draccus, Jerry, Strakeln and Big-Dex.

I might be missing one or two, though.

[Aranticus]

The list is longer than that. You have to add Impaqt, Draccus, Jerry, Strakeln and Big-Dex.

I might be missing one or two, though.

even then these people have shown much better restraint (and morals) than to hand out neg rep for no purpose

[Aranticus]

Location does not say nationality now does it? Do not assume. And back to the SUBJECT as I posted above please.

like i said, posting in the official reputation thread will probably serve better and possibly even get tolero to comment on it. the subject could be what you listed but the intent could be more...

[Borror0]

even then these people have shown much better restraint (and morals) than to hand out neg rep for no purpose
Oh, no. We have formed an alliance (BMRVOFS - Big Meanies Randomly Violating Others Freedom of Speech) in which we have sworn to hand out negative reputation for no purpose. Tolero, Tarrant, Patience and the Cube are also members of the alliance.

Basically, we open a forum page, roll a 20 and give neg rep to the person which post corresponds to the dice roll.

[Aranticus]

Oh, no. We have formed an alliance (BMRVOFS - Big Meanies Randomly Violating Others Freedom of Speech) in which we have sworn to hand out negative reputation for no purpose. Tolero, Tarrant, Patience and the Cube are also members of the alliance.

Basically, we open a forum page, roll a 20 and give neg rep to the person which post corresponds to the dice roll.

lmao

[uhgungawa]

Yet a system is not a rule it is merely a tool. A tool we are forced to be a part of even if we wish to disable it since it is flawed.

It's not flawed, nor are you forced to use it. The choice is yours to use the forums or not, and to post on them or not.

[uhgungawa]

Oh, and Borror0 is the Grand Poobah of the BMRVOFS - Big Meanies Randomly Violating Others Freedom of Speech. I spotted them having a meeting in the Salty Wench tavern the other night. They seemed to be plotting your downfall :rolleyes:

/tinfoil hat on

[Borror0]

It's not flawed, nor are you forced to use it.
I would argue it is flawed. Reputation is nearly equal to number_of_posts*humor_quotient*comments_about_repu tation.

If you prefer, if you want reputation, the best is to post a lot, be funny and make comments about the reputation system so that others think about handing out reputation to you. Posting a really helpful post (like a guide) may also help.

[Magis_DarkStone]

You chose to take part in the fourm "Community". Which means that your stuck with the Community Systems or rules. Same as real life.

You go into your school or Work ****ing people off and offending them However your doing it (not that you did I never check your history). People aren't going to like you and are going to put you negitive. It doesn't matter if you belive your right or even if your right. Its all perception aka "Social grace".

Personally from what I've seen you say in this thread, Your an ****** and a whiner. Thats my perception of you so yes I'd give you neg rep without a second though.


Have a Nice day.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Can I have a Dev or the like show me the link or area that states the Reputation system is a rule that we HAVE to use or is it in fact merely a system. A system is not the same as a rule...and as such if we do not want to be a part of a option where is the rule that says we have to use it? The disable option is not a disable option it only removes the view of your points you do not want to be a part of. So are we forced to use a system that is not a rule?

Again, just a link that shows we HAVE to use it or a place where we can opt out of a system/tool on the forums?

Let's see....its their board, if they say it gets used, it gets used. They make the rules, they don't have to write them down for you.


Incorrect freedom of speech on the INTERNET is upheld by the US Supreme court....but you knew that right? Try again. Off topic and a derailment. Where is the link as I have ask from above?

Well first of all you linked to wiki, not the court decisions, so maybe you didn't actually read or understand the decisions, but they do not apply. All those decisions did was to apply the same standard for judging free speach to the Internet as to traditional media. There is no protection of speach under the 1st ammendment in settings such as this one. The protection is designed mainly to prevent the government interfering with your speach, not to force a private entitiy to let you say something within their pages. For example you can't force the New York Times to let you have a weekly column because of Freedom of Speach. Even in the non-legal articles you sited they clearly say free speach is not without limits. In addition, the rep system is just a rating and monitoring system and does not by itself censor any speach.



The list is longer than that. You have to add Impaqt, Draccus, Jerry, Strakeln and Big-Dex.

I might be missing one or two, though.

I assume there are limits on handing out bad rep the way there are limits on good rep? Although most days I imagine that aren't THAT many people that need bad rep lol

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I would argue it is flawed. Reputation is nearly equal to number_of_posts*humor_quotient*comments_about_repu tation.

If you prefer, if you want reputation, the best is to post a lot, be funny and make comments about the reputation system so that others think about handing out reputation to you. Posting a really helpful post (like a guide) may also help.

I posted suggesting that the forum rep system was a bad idea in the thread it was announced. I'm still not sure its a good idea to make someone feel bad about themselves, even if they are getting the rep because they are jerks or posted really dumb ideas. On a way its enabling the masses to pick on the weak and stupid.

And I'm not sure what the benefit of having it is, so why have something that can hurt people's feelings as part of the official system if it doesn't bring a significant benefit?

[ShadowHand2]

You chose to take part in the fourm "Community". Which means that your stuck with the Community Systems or rules. Same as real life.

You go into your school or Work ****ing people off and offending them However your doing it (not that you did I never check your history). People aren't going to like you and are going to put you negitive. It doesn't matter if you belive your right or even if your right. Its all perception aka "Social grace".

Personally from what I've seen you say in this thread, Your an ****** and a whiner. Thats my perception of you so yes I'd give you neg rep without a second though.


Have a Nice day.

Incorrect on all accounts. The rep system is a TOOL to be used, what it is NOT is a rule. The Rep system was in fact added afterward and circumvents forum rules. Case in point: A player breaks rules of forum rules are subject to infraction points BY Dev's to restrict or remove your right to post. Rep system was added as a popularity tool that is in no way connected to the forum rules yet if a person gets enough points they are subject to the REAL forum rules. Since posting a pos or neg with no restriction on why you gave said points...it is flawed. Meaning, you can give neg or pos points not as intended and there is no way to hold a person to that.

If all of you are saying you only post pos or neg as intended I say your not being truthful. There is no way to hold you to that agreement to DDO...they only hope you do that. When the time comes a poster gets neg points from others but they do not break the real forum rules.....it violates those same rules. As only Dev's have the power under their form rules to restrict or remove others from posting....again a system or tool is not the same as a rule now is it?

"Personally from what I've seen you say in this thread, Your an ****** and a whiner. Thats my perception of you so yes I'd give you neg rep without a second though." ....so you freely admit you vote as not intended but based off emotional outburst? You might wish to edit a confess like this so REAL forum rules do not get applied to you. :)

Point is show me the link that we all agreed to a system as I have stated many times over. If it is a popularity tool and others like myself who do not need ego stroking to feel good about ourselves then it is what is A TOOL. The disable option is not a disable option as you are still apart of a system you never volunteered for. If there in fact is no rule that binds us to a tool that says it is optional then optional means REAL OPTIONS! Popularity has nothing with personal opinion or the right to post.

[Borror0]

I assume there are limits on handing out bad rep the way there are limits on good rep?
It shares the limitation with positive reputation. If you give pos or neg rep, it takes one use out of your daily pool.

All other restrictions (cooldown per poster, etc.) also apply.

Although most days I imagine that aren't THAT many people that need bad rep lol
I would say my personal average is under 1 neg rep per day and I think I tend to give neg rep easily compared to other users.

[ShadowHand2]

I posted suggesting that the forum rep system was a bad idea in the thread it was announced. I'm still not sure its a good idea to make someone feel bad about themselves, even if they are getting the rep because they are jerks or posted really dumb ideas. On a way its enabling the masses to pick on the weak and stupid.

And I'm not sure what the benefit of having it is, so why have something that can hurt people's feelings as part of the official system if it doesn't bring a significant benefit?

Your right, and the thing is it a tool that appears as if its a rule...it is not a rule. The option to disable it it is not in fact a option. Options would mean choice of its usage....there is not choice...your with the system no matter what.

[ShadowHand2]

It shares the limitation with positive reputation. If you give pos or neg rep, it takes one use out of your daily pool.

All other restrictions (cooldown per poster, etc.) also apply.

I would say my personal average is under 1 neg rep per day and I think I tend to give neg rep easily compared to other users.

Do you not in fact have a to have a certian number of points to post a neg point? The fact is you DO. IF the system was fair and balanced....pos and neg points should be handed freely with no limitations.....hense flawed.

[Borror0]

And I'm not sure what the benefit of having it is, so why have something that can hurt people's feelings as part of the official system if it doesn't bring a significant benefit?
You are incorrectly assuming that all contribution is desired on these forums. You could not be further from the truth.

Turbine is not interested in our feedback in a "democratic" way. They have other ways of gathering data for that purpose.What they seek is individual capable of expressing their opinion in intelligent, civil manner. If an individual is disruptive the community in any way, it's beneficial to drive him away as it will lead to better threads, communication and feedback. Oh, and reduce the burden on the moderators possibly.

[Borror0]

IF the system was fair and balanced....pos and neg points should be handed freely with no limitations.....hense flawed.
No, there is no way to conclude that.

[ShadowHand2]

You are incorrectly assuming that all contribution is desired on these forums. You could not be further from the truth.

Turbine is not interested in our feedback in a "democratic" way. They have other ways of gathering data for that purpose.What they seek is individual capable of expressing their opinion in intelligent, civil manner. If an individual is disruptive the community in any way, it's beneficial to drive him away as it will lead to better threads, communication and feedback. Oh, and reduce the burden on the moderators possibly.

You are incorrect in assuming what is valuable to the community. If a person posts their opinions.....that is what it is. I do not think the MOB mentality benefits anyone. DDO is in fact letting others police their system who do not have to break real forum rules....just get enough points of people disagreeing with you and your out....How is that right? Only places in history show who used the mass or populace to police themselves.....but they were all defeated for their TYRANT ways. No Sir, police states are never welcome no matter the sugar coating you add to it.
Nor it a right of the masses to assume the power of others being removed as if they are a Dev themselves. That is impersonation.

[Ironstones]

I weep for the future.......

[Borror0]

If a person posts their opinions.....that is what it is.
Yeah, and some people's contribution is unwanted.

If someone never posts anything worth reading and derails thread, Turbine won't miss them and the community will only improve from their departure.

No Sir, police states are never welcome no matter the sugar coating you add to it.
We live in an oligarchy so, meh.

[Pallol_One-Eye]

Yeah, and some people's contribution is unwanted.

If someone never posts anything worth reading and derails thread, Turbine won't miss them and the community will only improve from their departure.

We live in an oligarchy so, meh.

+1 for correctly using Oligarchy. That was the secret word of the day ;)

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Your right, and the thing is it a tool that appears as if its a rule...it is not a rule. The option to disable it it is not in fact a option. Options would mean choice of its usage....there is not choice...your with the system no matter what.

If you are going to have a rep system it makes no sense to allow it to be disabled. The only purpose of the system is to help the playerbase highlight troublesome players so that the mods can keep an eye out and reduce overall strain on the forums. If you allowed the system to be turned off, the jerks would all turn it off and there would be no point in the system.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You are incorrectly assuming that all contribution is desired on these forums. You could not be further from the truth.

Turbine is not interested in our feedback in a "democratic" way. They have other ways of gathering data for that purpose.What they seek is individual capable of expressing their opinion in intelligent, civil manner. If an individual is disruptive the community in any way, it's beneficial to drive him away as it will lead to better threads, communication and feedback. Oh, and reduce the burden on the moderators possibly.

That's true. But part of that civil manner is that we should each TRY to be nice to each other...and neg rep is a bit like posting a "you suck" reply in their thread, even if only they can see it. I see the value to the mods, and yet its mildly uncomfortable. I think they were smart to limit it to high rep posters, if you could give neg rep with no rep yourself this would turn ugly really fast.


You are incorrect in assuming what is valuable to the community. If a person posts their opinions.....that is what it is. I do not think the MOB mentality benefits anyone. DDO is in fact letting others police their system who do not have to break real forum rules....just get enough points of people disagreeing with you and your out....How is that right? Only places in history show who used the mass or populace to police themselves.....but they were all defeated for their TYRANT ways. No Sir, police states are never welcome no matter the sugar coating you add to it.
Nor it a right of the masses to assume the power of others being removed as if they are a Dev themselves. That is impersonation.

The devs aren't letting the players moderate, just flag for moderator attention. If a player is getting flagged that much, maybe they should be noticed (and in the past they would have been noticed by PMs to T&T anyway). In the end posts are rejected only by the devs and forum violation points are only given out by the devs, same as always.

The reality is if a player is only getting negative rep, they probably aren't contributing in a meaningful way to the community anyway. With maybe 6 people who can give negative rep and hundred if not thousands who can give positive, you really have to be a bit of a jerk I think to end up negative overall.

[Memnir]

You don't have to use it, and have the perfect right to opt out. Nobody is making you use this forum, and nobody is making you stay. If you don't like any rules or systems implemented by the owners of this website - stroll on down the internet to a place with rules and systems you find more suited to your tastes.

However, the owners of any public domain (physical or internet) have their rights protected by law to create their own expected code of conduct within their property. Free Speech is not an absolute, and many people forget that. If I were to go to a major league baseball game, I could stand up on my seat and shout "Bin Laden is right! Listen to him! Osama Bin Laden is right about everything!", and nothing I said is technically against free speech. I made no threats nor hate speech - yet I would probably be ejected for public disturbance. Same would apply if I did it on aisle-three of my local supermarket. However, if I shouted the same thing on the public sidewalk outside either of these venues - nothing could be done. This website is not the sidewalk. It is a privately owned and operated entity - and as such the owners can do with it as they like. They are under no obligation to explain anything to you, no matter how entitled you may feel. Putting in the Rep system does not violate any of your rights. And if that is not to your liking, you have the opt-out of hitting the sidewalk.

[ShadowHand2]

Yeah, and some people's contribution is unwanted.

"Unwanted" was not what the system said it was to be used for. Contribution of an oppose view? Are others opinions that go against a popular view not needed or in fact NOT wanted? What you are in a way saying is that you can nudge out others who you all deem not worth your idea of contribution.

If someone never posts anything worth reading and derails thread, Turbine won't miss them and the community will only improve from their departure.


If someone posts anything worth/ not worth reading for you there is a option that is free for everyone and does not instill fear of being disliked to the point of being forced out of the forums....its called post your own opinion or ignore them! Turbine will not miss them...do you speak for DDO enough to speak on their behalf? The community already has a system to remove unwanted....its called a report. What this system does is allow others not unlike yourself to circumvent real rules being broke to cut out any opposing views that go against your idea of what you like. Sorry, from what you deem as contributing.

We live in an oligarchy so, meh.

and when it comes that say in the future your contrbution is not longer needed....will you go on record to say it is just and fair then?

[Borror0]

But part of that civil manner is that we should each TRY to be nice to each other
On the Internet? Keep dreaming.

More importantly, it is false that everyone's opinion is desired. Let's face it, some people are incredibly stupid and reading their post is only a waste of time.

[Missing_Minds]

Shadow, you either use it or you don't. Display it or you don't.

If you don't want to bother with it, don't show and don't bother checking. It is that simple. Maturity goes on both ends of the tool/gimic.

[ShadowHand2]

You don't have to use it, and have the perfect right to opt out. Nobody is making you use this forum, and nobody is making you stay. If you don't like any rules or systems implemented by the owners of this website - stroll on down the internet to a place with rules and systems you find more suited to your tastes.

However, the owners of any public domain (physical or internet) have their rights protected by law to create their own expected code of conduct within their property. Free Speech is not an absolute, and many people forget that. If I were to go to a major league baseball game, I could stand up on my seat and shout "Bin Laden is right! Listen to him! Osama Bin Laden is right about everything!", and nothing I said is technically against free speech. I made no threats nor hate speech - yet I would probably be ejected for public disturbance. Same would apply if I did it on aisle-three of my local supermarket. However, if I shouted the same thing on the public sidewalk outside either of these venues - nothing could be done. This website is not the sidewalk. It is a privately owned and operated entity - and as such the owners can do with it as they like. They are under no obligation to explain anything to you, no matter how entitled you may feel. Putting in the Rep system does not violate any of your rights. And if that is not to your liking, you have the opt-out of hitting the sidewalk.

Exercising the right to use the forums is the issue not freedom of speach...you added that. The system is not a rule but a tool to bypass the rules to get rid of people NOT breaking the code of conduct...got it now? They gave us the right to use the forums and if you do not break them rules how is it a tool not connected to the system used against others to get rid of them? Nudging people out is what it is. It is made to FORCE a popular opinion and not allow all opinions that fall within the code of conduct to be silenced.
"You don't have to use it, and have the perfect right to opt out" That would be true if not for the fact even if I wanted to opt out I CANT. As it is a tool and not a rule I have every right if I do not wanted to use it to be able to have a real option. As there is none I am FORCED, where is choice if no option? It is not a option it the illusion OF a option that is not there to begin with!

Like most great "ïdeas" it looks good on paper, but when applied does not work as intend!

[Borror0]

Contribution of an oppose view? Are others opinions that go against a popular view not needed or in fact NOT wanted?
No. You're reading things in what I said that is not there.

Turbine is certainly interested in views that oppose them, and so are any reasonable poster. Entering a good debate about game mechanics, an issue or a suggestion is enjoyable. However, if a poster is continually making posts that oppose common, derails conversation and so on; his contribution is not positive nor desired.

If someone posts anything worth/ not worth reading for you there is a option that is free for everyone and does not instill fear of being disliked to the point of being forced out of the forums....its called post your own opinion or ignore them!
Two keywords that automatically refute your argument are 'flame war' and 'thread derailment'.

The community already has a system to remove unwanted....its called a report.
No, it does not. Many posts can conform to the guidelines while being detrimental to the community.

PS: Edit your post so that your added comments don't seem to be part of my post.

[ShadowHand2]

Shadow, you either use it or you don't. Display it or you don't.

If you don't want to bother with it, don't show and don't bother checking. It is that simple. Maturity goes on both ends of the tool/gimic.

That would be true if we were actually given an option to not use it. We are still in a system we elected to not be in by choice that is true, but it is a illusion we have a option. As long as people can give one pos/neg then you are still part of that system. In turn it is tool/ system is NOT a rule, it is a tool used to circumvent real forum rules.

Not only does that is allows others to punish people not breaking the code of conduct thier only crime is going against the popular view....IS THAT RIGHT IN ANYWAY?

[Memnir]

"You don't have to use it, and have the perfect right to opt out" That would be true if not for the fact even if I wanted to opt out I CANT. As it is a tool and not a rule I have every right if I do not wanted to use it to be able to have a real option. As there is none I am FORCED, where is choice if no option? It is not a option it the illusion OF a option that is not there to begin with!

Like most great "ïdeas" it looks good on paper, but when applied does not work as intend!And you missed my point.
The opt-out is to not use the website, and you have that right unless a Turbine Goon is holding you down at your seat and making you use this forum. You are here by choice, and as such are choosing to use whatever systems, rules, guidelines, etc that the owner/operators of this website deem fit to implement. The other choice is to not use the website if any of those systems, rules, guidelines, etc arenot to your liking.

Some people find the Succubus image at the top of the page to be offensive, and would like the option to chose to display it or not. Some have decided not to return to the forums until such a choice is given to us - and others have decided to live with it. It's the same thing in principal as your views on the Rep system. You either live with it even if you don't like it - or you leave.


It's pretty simple.
However, I'd have more fun and more chance of sucsess trying to teach my cat algebra - so I'll leave your thread now and try to see if she can nail down the value of x this time...
Good luck tilting at your windmill.

[ShadowHand2]

No. You're reading things in what I said that is not there.

Turbine is certainly interested in views that oppose them, and so are any reasonable poster. Entering a good debate about game mechanics, an issue or a suggestion is enjoyable. However, if a poster is continually making posts that oppose common, derails conversation and so on; his contribution is not positive nor desired.

Two keywords that automatically refute your argument are 'flame war' and 'thread derailment'.

No, it does not. Many posts can conform to the guidelines while being detrimental to the community.

PS: Edit your post so that your added comments don't seem to be part of my post.

We are not talking about what Turbine thinks as it a tool for players to use! I am sure even you can appreciated what I am saying.

[Missing_Minds]

That would be true if we were actually given an option to not use it. We are still in a system we elected to not be in by choice that is true, but it is a illusion we have a option. As long as people can give one pos/neg then you are still part of that system. In turn it is tool/ system is NOT a rule, it is a tool used to circumvent real forum rules.

Not only does that is allows others to punish people not breaking the code of conduct thier only crime is going against the popular view....IS THAT RIGHT IN ANYWAY?

You are given the complete option of not having the tool used for or against you by not using the forums.

By being part of the forums you are part of the system, and probably have already agreed to it in some fashion. (normally there is an agreement one must click on the "yes, I agree" mark.)

Now that stated, you have the option to give rep or not. You have the option to pay attention to your rep or not. You have the option to display your rep or not.

In this fashion the choice is yours if you so deem to use the tool or not. Just because you decide not to use it does not mean that others are bound by the same choice.

Your statements of (and I'm going to paraphrase here.) "I want this tool turned off for me only. Why? Because I don't want to use it." Can mean also "I'm special.", "I don't want to have negative or positive rep.", I don't care what people think.", and "I'm going to be an ass, nenernener, and you can't do anything about it." Which case is yours, I don't care really.

So you have the option of leaving the forums, or continue to stay here and do as has been suggested while leaving an ego at the door.

The large majority of people probably don't care about the rep system one way or another. However, what makes you so special that you don't want to be a part of it? Are you somehow more equal than the rest of us? I doubt that.

[Borror0]

We are not talking about what Turbine thinks as it a tool for players to use!
Then, what are we talking about?

[ShadowHand2]

And you missed my point.
The opt-out is to not use the website, and you have that right unless a Turbine Goon is holding you down at your seat and making you use this forum. You are here by choice, and as such are choosing to use whatever systems, rules, guidelines, etc that the owner/operators of this website deem fit to implement. The other choice is to not use the website if any of those systems, rules, guidelines, etc arenot to your liking.

Some people find the Succubus image at the top of the page to be offensive, and would like the option to chose to display it or not. Some have decided not to return to the forums until such a choice is given to us - and others have decided to live with it. It's the same thing in principal as your views on the Rep system. You either live with it even if you don't like it - or you leave.


It's pretty simple.
However, I'd have more fun and more chance of sucsess trying to teach my cat algebra - so I'll leave your thread now and try to see if she can nail down the value of x this time...
Good luck tilting at your windmill.

So you freely admit it is in fact a system and not a rule? a system gives choices, not the illusion of choice. If you had lesser rep points then you have now you would more incline to understand and appreciate what I am saying. The opt out as you say is to not use the website, how is that a option and did DDO state such thing or is that merely your opinion. I would rather a option not the opinion from someone what my options should be.

This system is the illusion of and options gives the illusion of an options. It is not a option! If your ok with voices being slowly silence who is next?

[Borror0]

This system is the illusion of and options gives the illusion of an options.
When did you lose the option to not log on?

[ShadowHand2]

You are given the complete option of not having the tool used for or against you by not using the forums.

By being part of the forums you are part of the system, and probably have already agreed to it in some fashion. (normally there is an agreement one must click on the "yes, I agree" mark.)

Now that stated, you have the option to give rep or not. You have the option to pay attention to your rep or not. You have the option to display your rep or not.

In this fashion the choice is yours if you so deem to use the tool or not. Just because you decide not to use it does not mean that others are bound by the same choice.

Your statements of (and I'm going to paraphrase here.) "I want this tool turned off for me only. Why? Because I don't want to use it." Can mean also "I'm special.", "I don't want to have negative or positive rep.", I don't care what people think.", and "I'm going to be an ass, nenernener, and you can't do anything about it." Which case is yours, I don't care really.

So you have the option of leaving the forums, or continue to stay here and do as has been suggested while leaving an ego at the door.

The large majority of people probably don't care about the rep system one way or another. However, what makes you so special that you don't want to be a part of it? Are you somehow more equal than the rest of us? I doubt that.

I wanted the option for ALL to use...not just me...understand now. Those are not my words you paraphrase and i kindly ask you edit before I use real options. Again leaving the forums is your idea of a option not a real one. You also freely admit the Rep system is a system, it is not a rule. I agreed to abide by the rules and code, nowhere has any YET showed me where I or OTHERS agreed to a new system that has nothing to do with forum rules. Since the system allows person to be subject to forum rules but one does not have to violate forum rules to get removed by the Rep system...it is a contradiction of itself.

[ShadowHand2]

When did you lose the option to not log on?

When did I say I could not? And what does that have to do with anything?

[Borror0]

When did I say I could not? And what does that have to do with anything?
If you don't like the forums, don't use them.

Turbine don't have to set these forums up. If they see no gain for them into them, they won't waste their time into moderating them or reading them. Thus, it begs the question: why does Turbine have these forums? If you attempt to answer the question, you'll realize why the rep system makes sense.

[Tarrant]

The devs aren't letting the players moderate, just flag for moderator attention.


You don't have to use it, and have the perfect right to opt out. Nobody is making you use this forum, and nobody is making you stay. If you don't like any rules or systems implemented by the owners of this website - stroll on down the internet to a place with rules and systems you find more suited to your tastes.

There have been a number of posts in this thread that explain the scenario correctly, but the two I've quoted sum up the situation very nicely.

ShadowHand, you've already had this discussion via PM and there's a thread devoted to reputation already, so there was no need to post a new thread on it - let alone post it in the Suggestions forum. And as you've been told, if you don't like the reputation system you are welcome to not post on the forums.

We value player feedback and certainly don't want to force an unpopular system onto anybody, however at the end of the day if we said you have to post in French or we'll permaban you, then that would be the case until whoever said that was fired. ;) Frankly, the rules for this forum are whatever Turbine says they are, and by logging onto these private forums you agree to them. In this instance, we're pleased with the reputation system and feel that providing the option to disable others from viewing your reputation level is sufficient for those that dislike the system. There are no current plans to allow anyone to completely opt-out of the system.

So yes, by putting the reputation system in place we are creating a rule that says you must take part in it. You can ignore the system like Memnir does, or embrace it like some of our other posters have. You can even use the reputation system as it is intended, which is to provide feedback in an anonymous way regarding which posts others feel are negative and detrimental to the community or positive and constructive. Using that feedback and criticism, you can change your posting habits if you wish to.