The Punisher Build [Archive] - Dungeons & Dragons Online Forums

Valezra

07-13-2009, 08:45 PM

THE PUNISHER
A Halfling Concept

CLASSES
15 Paladin / 5 Rogue

HITPOINTS
489 (537 raged)

STATS
Str: 30 (15 + 4 Tome + 5 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
Dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
Con: 22 (13 + 3 Tome + 6 Item)
Int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
Wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
Cha: 26 (15 + 3 Tome +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

SAVES SELF BUFFED
Fort: 35 (9 Paladin + 1 Rogue + 8 Cha + 1 Aura + 6 Con + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance +1 Halfling)
Reflex: 36 (5 Paladin + 4 Rogue +8 Cha + 1 Aura + 7 Dex + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance + 1 Haste + 1 Halfling)
Will: 29 (5 Paladin + 1 Rogue + 8 Cha + 1 Aura + 4 Wisdom + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance + 1 Halfling)

*These can be adjusted to your liking via some AP in the Paladin Aura enhancements and via Halfling Enhancements allowing the build to adapt to the possibility of 40+ saves in mod 9 easily.

FEATS
Khopesh
Toughness
TWF
ITWF
Power Attack
GTWF
Extend

AC
10 Base
2-5 Aura
5 Protection
8 Armor
1 Ritual
7 Dex
1 Haste
1 Halfling
3 Barkskin
3 Chattering
2 Chaos
4 Shield Spell
4 Insight

51-54 Self Buffed

+2 Recitation
+2 Barkskin

55-60 Easy Raid Buff

+4 Bardsong

59-64 Highest Raid Buffed.

DR
5/Evil (AngelSkin)

UMD
23 Ranks
4 Greater Hero
3 Cartouche
2 HoGF
8 Cha
6 Shroud

46 (41 in DPS mode - 100% Heal Scroll)

DPS
5 / 5 .. Weapon Modifier
5.5 / 5.5 .. Base Avg GS Khopesh
12 / 6 .. Strength
5 / 5 .. Power Attack
3 / 3 .. Divine Favor
9 / 9 .. Bard Song
6 / 6 .. Divine Might III

43.5 / 37.5 .. Avg Base Damage

148.5 / 130.5 .. Avg Base Crit (w/ Bloodstone)

32.625 / 28.125 (Weighted Base Hit)

29.7 / 26.1 (Weighted Base Crits)

62.325 / 54.225 (Total Weighted Base Damage)

Additional
6.65 / 6.65 .. Weighted Holy (2d6)
2.375 / 2.375 .. Weighted Slicing (1d4)
3.325 / 3.325 .. Weighted Acid (1d6)
2.2 / 2.2 .. Weighted Acid Crits (2d10)
2.2 / 2.2 .. Weighted Acid Crits from Blast (2d10)
.95 / .95 .. Weighted Force
.7 / .7 .. Weighted Acid on 20's (Teir III)
7.6 / 7.6 .. Weighted Tharnes SA Damage
7.6 / 7.6 .. Weighted Halfling SA Damage Enhancements
9.975 / 9.975 .. Weighted Rogue SA Damage
5.7 / 5.7 .. Weighted Rogue SA Damage Enhancements

49.275 / 49.275 Total Additional Damage

111.51 / 103.5 Total Damage

5-Minute Average DPS vs Evil Outsiders: 479.6 DPS
5-Minute Average DPS vs Evil Outsiders w/ Smites and Divine Sacrifice: 510 DPS

Smite = 500+ damage crits per hand.

ATTACK
18 Base
+ 5 Weapon
+ 12 Strength
+ 2 Competence
+ 4 Greater Hero
+ 3 Divine Favor
+ 1 Halfling
+ 4 Halfling Cunning
+ 1 Rogue SA Accuracy
-4 TWF
-5 PA
+5 Tharnes

46 Total

THOUGHTS
Pros:
1. Excellent DPS. With Smites and Divine Sacrifice this appears to be the highest non-rogue primary DPS build yet.
2. UMD for HEAL scrolls on the fly.
3. Good hitpoints.
4. Paladin buffs and immunities.
5. Evasion with high reflex save.
6. Average AC for a DPS toon.
7. High survivability via: AC, Saves, Evasion, UMD, Lay on Hands, DR, Hitpoints.
8. Flexibility. This is one of the builds strongest suits. You can respec your enhancements and go many different directions allowing the build to adapt with future content.
Cons:
1. DPS is situational for Sneak Attack. Still excellent DPS when not Sneak Attacking.
2. No room for rogue skills.

Val

Demoyn

07-13-2009, 11:33 PM

1. Excellent DPS. Higher than a WF Monster... especially once the Fighter/Rogue Haste boosts both run out. Can burst a lot more damage as well via Exalted Smites.

Let's assume for a minute that your math is correct (which I find unbelievable to begin with, since even I know that the average damage of a greensteel rapier is not 5.5). Let's also assume that, in theory, you slightly out DPS the Monster (since the Monster's DPS isn't listed in Gfunk's thread with the haste boost).

Now tell me what happens when you're madstoned and your zeal runs out. Oh right, you lose the DPS argument completely.

I can assure you that defending the monster is definitely not easy for me. I hate it, in fact, but I had to come to its defense here because claiming that this is a better build is an outright lie.

Valezra

07-14-2009, 12:02 AM

Let's assume for a minute that your math is correct (which I find unbelievable to begin with, since even I know that the average damage of a greensteel rapier is not 5.5).

This is a khopesh build. I showed my math and the concluding max DPS. What more do you want?

Let's also assume that, in theory, you slightly out DPS the Monster (since the Monster's DPS isn't listed in Gfunk's thread with the haste boost).

Monster DPS has been calculated out at 496 DPS by others and that is raged, madstones, hasted, and 30% Fighter Haste boost.

Now tell me what happens when you're madstoned and your zeal runs out. Oh right, you lose the DPS argument completely.

When my madstone runs out so does the Monster's. When my haste boosts run out so does his. Notice that this build only uses a 20% haste boost and the monster relies on 30% boost. When both boosts are out this will do even more damage than the Monster against 0 fort mobs.

I can assure you that defending the monster is definitely not easy for me. I hate it, in fact, but I had to come to its defense here because claiming that this is a better build is an outright lie.

I'm not "lying" about anything. I just posted a build and used the Monster to compare some numbers. Sneak Attack is situational and the Monster's DPS does not rely as much on Sneak Attack. On the flipside this build doesn't rely as much on crits as the Monster does. I would have to calculate them both but I'm sure they are close on 50% fort mobs.

*Edit - See calcs below.

Val

Valezra

07-14-2009, 12:29 AM

Situation DPS has really been something I have been curious about. I went ahead and compared the Punisher to the Monster using various situational DPS figures.

Punisher / Monster

1. Stars Aligned Max Boosted DPS:
503.8 / 490

2. No Fighter or Rogue Haste Boost DPS:
431.65 / 384.74

3. No Fighter or Rogue Haste Boost DPS vs 50% Fortification:
343.95 / 312*

* This is an approximation. Should be accurate within +/- 5 DPS.

As you can see from #2 the Punisher is starting from a position of greater base DPS. Once fortification is added both builds lose DPS but as expected the Punisher loses much more. From #3 you can see the Punisher is still ahead but just by around 25 DPS.

These numbers are just for comparison only. I don't put any meaning behind them. These number also don't mean one build is "better" than the other.

Val

Angelus_dead

07-14-2009, 02:35 AM

14 Paladin / 5 Rogue / 1 Fighter
Changing Fighter to Ranger would increase DPS and saves, at the cost of Toughness.

Korvek

07-14-2009, 02:38 AM

When my madstone runs out so does the Monster's. When my haste boosts run out so does his. Notice that this build only uses a 20% haste boost and the monster relies on 30% boost. When both boosts are out this will do even more damage than the Monster against 0 fort mobs.

He was asking about Zeal, which could potentially be an issue if you're not being careful and Madstone re-procs around when Zeal runs out (given that Zeal can't be cast while Madstoned), though I don't expect you'll have the boots on at all times.

valorik

07-14-2009, 02:53 AM

I don't understand why you don't just go 6 ranger instead of 5 rogue/1 fighter

what you gain from rogue:
3d6+ 8 (need to check this) sneak attack
evasion
heal scroll umd
rogue skills?
Intimidate?
haste boost
1 extra feat

What you gain from Ranger
10 hitpoints (negligable)
2 shield ac (probably negilgable)
10% speed increase
favored enemy damage vs. undead and evil outsiders
+3 damage via rams might
+4 fort saves (kind of pointless)
+2 BaB

if your dps stems from sneak attack, then unless you're using Radiance 2s, you're dps pretty much caps at either the highest you can do without it, or the highest another person can do to keep aggro off of you, but with teh ranger version, sneak attack matters a lot less.

You knew it had to come up some time, I want to see what you come up with.

DragoonPenguin

07-14-2009, 02:59 AM

I don't understand why you don't just go 6 ranger instead of 5 rogue/1 fighter

what you gain from rogue:
3d6+ 8 (need to check this) sneak attack
evasion
heal scroll umd
rogue skills?
Intimidate?
haste boost

What you gain from Ranger
10 hitpoints (negligable)
2 shield ac (probably negilgable)
10% speed increase
2 free feats
favored enemy damage vs. undead and evil outsiders
+3 damage via rams might
+4 fort saves (kind of pointless)

if your dps stems from sneak attack, then unless you're using Radiance 2s, you're dps pretty much caps at either the highest you can do without it, or the highest another person can do to keep aggro off of you, but with teh ranger version, sneak attack matters a lot less.

You knew it had to come up some time, I want to see what you come up with.

getting tempest and GTWF on 6 lvls of ranger takes 4 feats. ya dont gain 2, you lose 1.

Demoyn

07-14-2009, 04:00 AM

This is a khopesh build.

My apologies. I have no idea where I got rapier from.

As for the zeal part, though, I was referring to the recast. If you're madstoned and your zeal runs out then you're losing 10% DPS that entire time. I would never include madstone boots in a build that relies on short spell buffs.

Kriogen

07-14-2009, 06:02 AM

Divine Might is lvl5, lvl10, lvl15, lvl20 Paladin/Cleric. You can't have DM III.

maddmatt70

07-14-2009, 06:18 AM

My apologies. I have no idea where I got rapier from.

As for the zeal part, though, I was referring to the recast. If you're madstoned and your zeal runs out then you're losing 10% DPS that entire time. I would never include madstone boots in a build that relies on short spell buffs.

zeal is 3:40 and divine favor is going to be incread to a longer time so it will be 3:40 as well. That is plenty of time to after buffing yourself click on madstone boots or to even take off the boot after a 1:30 sec. It was less feasible to include madstone when divine favor was 2 min but now that it has been extended it is more feasible.

Yargore

07-14-2009, 07:17 AM

Paladin is a poor choice for DPS.

1. Excellent DPS. Higher than a WF Monster... especially once the Fighter/Rogue Haste boosts both run out. Can burst a lot more damage as well via Exalted Smites.

That is not correct. You ignore the fact that The Monster have 8 haste boosts, and your calcs are pretty flawed.

With 100% haste boost efficiency (20 seconds) The Monster ends up at 548 DPS while your build ends up at 503 DPS.
Your build is also way more dependant on SA and EOs.

Removing SA and EOs leaves your DPS at 360 while the monster ends up at 470.

You will need alot more rogue levels if you're gonna beat The Monster:p

Valezra

07-14-2009, 10:36 AM

Paladin is a poor choice for DPS.

No, it's just more situational. With KoTC, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites, and Divine Might the Paladin is actually an excellent DPS machine and can outburst any other melee class hands down.

That is not correct. You ignore the fact that The Monster have 8 haste boosts, and your calcs are pretty flawed.

Show me where my calcs are flawed. I don't really care that the Monster gets 3 more boosts than this build. It is made up during the other 10 seconds between boosts when the Punisher is doing a lot more damage. Which I have shown.

With 100% haste boost efficiency (20 seconds) The Monster ends up at 548 DPS while your build ends up at 503 DPS.
Your build is also way more dependant on SA and EOs.

When I assumed in a different thread the Monster DPS was 503 fully boosted because that is the way you calculated it here (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4857880&postcount=262) you responded (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2277881&postcount=17) by telling me the calc was done slightly wrong and the Monster DPS max is actually 490 DPS. Now your telling me it magically received 58 more DPS than what you already admitted was the max?

Removing SA and EOs leaves your DPS at 360 while the monster ends up at 470.

I already mentioned that the Punisher was more situational. Against a 100% fort mob that isn't an evil outsider I'm sure the builds are close.

You will need alot more rogue levels if you're gonna beat The Monster:p

Why do I need anything more when I am already beating it? And don't forget, when I can't get SA the Monster can't get crits... and the Monster relies heavily on crits. Don't get all upset because some other build out there can do a little more DPS than a Monster and have UMD to boot.

Someone also mentioned that DM III cannot be obtained. You are correct. That was an oversight on my part. I will adjust the starting stats to hopefully offset that loss and will show the revised calculations later.

Also, Zeal and Divine Favor will both last longer than Madstone Rage. My calcs don't include or need double Madstone Rage. While this build DOES require a lot of clicking it is far from impossible to plan out all your buffs.

Val

Valezra

07-14-2009, 10:42 AM

Going to revise the initial setup to take the 1 level up point from Cha and put it back into Str then get exceptional Str +1 on my DT armor. This gives me a slight overall DPS loss from going to DM II from DM III but gains me another +1 to attack and +1 damage on the mainhand weapon.

Val

Valezra

07-14-2009, 10:45 AM

getting tempest and GTWF on 6 lvls of ranger takes 4 feats. ya dont gain 2, you lose 1.

Right, and the Evasion, UMD, and Haste Boost for burst DPS are more important to me than getting tempest at this point. It may do a bit more damage but I really like the survivability of the current setup.

Val

Valezra

07-14-2009, 10:48 AM

Changing Fighter to Ranger would increase DPS and saves, at the cost of Toughness.

Interesting consideration, though I wouldn't drop Toughness. OTWF would have to go but then my attack drops by 2 per hand. Tough call... nice alternative.

Val

baddax

07-14-2009, 12:20 PM

So the monster is DEAD?
Long live the punisher!!

Absolute-Omniscience

07-14-2009, 01:16 PM

Show me where my calcs are flawed. I don't really care that the Monster gets 3 more boosts than this build. It is made up during the other 10 seconds between boosts when the Punisher is doing a lot more damage. Which I have shown.
Your calculations are flawed because they only span over a 20 second time. 20 seconds of combat is hardly accurate. According to these forums every battles takes 10 minutes after all ;).

Incorrect, you have not shown that. Your build is at 430 with full sa and without boosts, the monster is at 430 with SA goggles and no haste boosts.
The Monster is at 548 over a 20 second span, the Punisher is at 503. Perhaps you should use some uptodate calculations and stop calcing 20 second calcs.

PS: The monster gets, 1 boost from extra boost enhancement, 2 boosts from kensai = 8 total.

When I assumed in a different thread the Monster DPS was 503 fully boosted because that is the way you calculated it here (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4857880&postcount=262) you responded (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2277881&postcount=17) by telling me the calc was done slightly wrong and the Monster DPS max is actually 490 DPS. Now your telling me it magically received 58 more DPS than what you already admitted was the max?.

Because that was without 100% haste boost, eg 5 minute battles; not 20 second.

Why do I need anything more when I am already beating it? And don't forget, when I can't get SA the Monster can't get crits... and the Monster relies heavily on crits.
You can't get SA when you have aggro, if you deal max dps you have aggro. SA is very situational on a Non-rogue.
Where the hell did you pull out that the Monster relies heavily on crits? Your build rely more on crits (exalted smites, divine sacrifices) than the Monster. Perhaps you should look into the build.

Just removing SA from your build drops it down 100 dps. Whilst the Monster only loses ~30 dps.

Yargore

07-14-2009, 01:27 PM

No, it's just more situational. With KoTC, Divine Sacrifice, Exalted Smites, and Divine Might the Paladin is actually an excellent DPS machine and can outburst any other melee class hands down.
Not saying that it's correct, but who cares about burst DPS?
Yay, you can get higher numbers than The Monster when you smite, how awesome. not.

Show me where my calcs are flawed. I don't really care that the Monster gets 3 more boosts than this build. It is made up during the other 10 seconds between boosts when the Punisher is doing a lot more damage. Which I have shown.

When I assumed in a different thread the Monster DPS was 503 fully boosted because that is the way you calculated it here (http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4857880&postcount=262) you responded (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2277881&postcount=17) by telling me the calc was done slightly wrong and the Monster DPS max is actually 490 DPS. Now your telling me it magically received 58 more DPS than what you already admitted was the max?

If you don't care about the 3 extra boosts then that is one of the flaws in your calcs.

Your calc showed the DPS during the 20 seconds haste boost is active, but that doesn't give the full picture now does it?

The calc that gave The Monster 490 DPS was over an average of 5 minutes (53% haste boost efficiency with 8 boosts), while the calc that gave 548 only was over 20 sec (100% haste boost efficiency), like your calcs.

I already mentioned that the Punisher was more situational. Against a 100% fort mob that isn't an evil outsider I'm sure the builds are close.

The Monster is quite far ahead.
258 vs 303 DPS.

Why do I need anything more when I am already beating it? And don't forget, when I can't get SA the Monster can't get crits... and the Monster relies heavily on crits. Don't get all upset because some other build out there can do a little more DPS than a Monster and have UMD to boot.

LOL, why the heck would The Monster rely heavily on crits? Is it becuase of the 2 extra seeker damage? xD

Valezra

07-14-2009, 07:04 PM

LOL it's so funny how rude people get when their favorite build comes into question. I'll rerun the numbers and see what I come up with for various situations.

I'll compare the builds for:

Burst DPS (20 Second)
Short Term DPS (5 Minute Fight)
Long Term DPS (10 Minute Fight)

And then the above for:
50% Fortification vs EO
50% Fortification vs Others
100% Fortification vs EO
100% Fortification vs Others

I'm doing this more to set up a good excel sheet I can use to give me realistic numbers.

Personally, I don't like to focus on damage via Boosts because no one ever considers the 1~2 second delay to activate the boost which in realistically lowers results.

Val

Absolute-Omniscience

07-14-2009, 07:17 PM

LOL it's so funny how rude people get when their favorite build comes into question. I'll rerun the numbers and see what I come up with for various situations.
Incase you haven't noticed, I am always rude :P. Oh, and my currently favorite build is "The Ravager". I just want the facts to be straight.

I'll compare the builds for:

Burst DPS (20 Second)
Short Term DPS (5 Minute Fight)
Long Term DPS (10 Minute Fight)

And then the above for:
50% Fortification vs EO
50% Fortification vs Others
100% Fortification vs EO
100% Fortification vs Others

I'm doing this more to set up a good excel sheet I can use to give me realistic numbers.

Personally, I don't like to focus on damage via Boosts because no one ever considers the 1~2 second delay to activate the boost which in realistically lowers results.

Val

5 minutes is long, 10 minutes is extremly roleplaying long. :P.

The attack delay after using; boosts, skills, weapon swaps is 1,2 seconds long. With quickdraw that time is reduced to 0,6, the Monster has Quickdraw.

Lymnus

07-14-2009, 07:29 PM

The attack delay after using; boosts, skills, weapon swaps is 1,2 seconds long. With quickdraw that time is reduced to 0,6, the Monster has Quickdraw.
You talk so much about Quickdraw. I really don't see what the big deal is. There must be this elusive secret I'm missing.

DragoonPenguin

07-14-2009, 07:32 PM

You talk so much about Quickdraw. I really don't see what the big deal is. There must be this elusive secret I'm missing.

no man, i have no idea what the draw of quickdraw is either. sounds like a massive waste of a feat.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-14-2009, 07:49 PM

Lymnus

07-14-2009, 07:56 PM

Protip: read what you quoted. It lowers the attack delay after using a skill (like intimidate), weapon swap, or boost (like haste boost) by 0,6 seconds leaving it at mere 0,6 seconds.

Try it, love it, and approve it. Else do not speak of what you do not know, and is too ignorant to try out.
Ignorant, yes. Inquisitive, yes. However, I'm curious if that benefit actually is real. Quick Draw merely states that

Quick draw allows the character to switch weapons and armor faster than they would normally be able to. It also increases the rate of fire of thrown weapons, but not of other ranged weapons. This speed increase stacks with the one Rapid Reload also give.

So. It just seems to make thrown weapons attack faster, and swift weapon/armor sets quicker. Is this cooldown effect actually in game? I ask because I can't get on DDO at this time and test it.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-14-2009, 08:22 PM

So. It just seems to make thrown weapons attack faster, and swift weapon/armor sets quicker. Is this cooldown effect actually in game? I ask because I can't get on DDO at this time and test it.

Yes, it is in the game and works like I've stated. A lot of intimidate tanks and fighter dps builds will surely agree with me.

The thing is, the attack delay that comes from swaping weapon, that "trigger" in the code is used for both skills and boosts as well. So when you lower one, you lower em all. Intentional or not, it works.
Try it and you wont regret it.

Valezra

07-14-2009, 08:30 PM

Incase you haven't noticed, I am always rude :P. Oh, and my currently favorite build is "The Ravager". I just want the facts to be straight.

5 minutes is long, 10 minutes is extremly roleplaying long. :P.

The attack delay after using; boosts, skills, weapon swaps is 1,2 seconds long. With quickdraw that time is reduced to 0,6, the Monster has Quickdraw.

Yeah I dropped 10 minutes... I did calc 5 minutes though since it averages fairly well with the efficiencies of haste boosts.

The Punisher calcs are done. Just doing the Monster now.

Val

Yargore

07-14-2009, 08:31 PM

LOL it's so funny how rude people get when their favorite build comes into question. I'll rerun the numbers and see what I come up with for various situations.

I'm always rude to people who make false statements and defend them with all they got.

Oh, The Monster isn't my favorite build, I change favorite build very often, as I'm not biased to any specific class/build.

Lymnus

07-14-2009, 08:35 PM

Yes, it is in the game and works like I've stated. A lot of intimidate tanks and fighter dps builds will surely agree with me.

The thing is, the attack delay that comes from swaping weapon, that "trigger" in the code is used for both skills and boosts as well. So when you lower one, you lower em all. Intentional or not, it works.
Try it and you wont regret it.
Interesting. So, when you use a boost, it considered you "swapping" a weapon?
That's interesting. I can't try it today, but I'll try it another day. I'll see how well it works. But, thank you for the elaboration, mate.

Comfortably

07-14-2009, 10:17 PM

Comfortably

07-14-2009, 10:19 PM

Paladin is a poor choice for DPS.

That is not correct. You ignore the fact that The Monster have 8 haste boosts, and your calcs are pretty flawed.

With 100% haste boost efficiency (20 seconds) The Monster ends up at 548 DPS while your build ends up at 503 DPS.
Your build is also way more dependant on SA and EOs.

Removing SA and EOs leaves your DPS at 360 while the monster ends up at 470.

You will need alot more rogue levels if you're gonna beat The Monster:p

It's sad that a build like the "monster" has to rely on haste boosts to keep up with DPS.

Yargore

07-14-2009, 10:24 PM

I see some of the "Monster" fanboi's have taken to following Val around on a crusade of sorts. Just because your but hurt that there are better builds out there, with more survivability, doesn't mean you can make things up about his calcs when you're not even posting ones that are proving him wrong.

I have pointed out to him where his calcs lacked. He aknowledged it and said that he would make new ones.
What is the problem here? I don't see it.

It's sad that a build like the "monster" has to rely on haste boosts to keep up with DPS.

Care to explain what you mean by that?

Haste boost is just as valid DPS sporce as favored enemy on a ranger, or rage on a barb.
Is it sad that your barb have to rely on rage to keep up with DPS too? (Although even with rage barbs fails to keep up with DPS.)

Surista

07-14-2009, 11:09 PM

It's sad that a build like the "monster" has to rely on haste boosts to keep up with DPS.

If they took out all the activated things and clickies in this game lots of builds would be nerfed down alot......

Valezra

07-14-2009, 11:55 PM

Give me a second to get these numbers posted... on my netbook I couldn't print to JPG for easy posting.

....

kingfisher

07-15-2009, 12:08 AM

Comfortably

07-15-2009, 12:13 AM

If they took out all the activated things and clickies in this game lots of builds would be nerfed down alot......

People were saying how you couldn't rely on DS and DM...but haste boost can count? Just seemed kinda funny.

Valezra

07-15-2009, 12:52 AM

People were saying how you couldn't rely on DS and DM...but haste boost can count? Just seemed kinda funny.

Agreed... for whatever it's worth I calculated the DPS for the Punisher vs The Monster and over the 5 minute fight as well as against 100% fort mobs the Monster stays ahead by about ~30 DPS. Far different from my original calcs.

This build is an excellent DPS build still with UMD, saves that can actually use evasion, and excellent burst DPS.

Val

Comfortably

07-15-2009, 01:20 AM

I'd almost say go 6 levels of ranger for tempest1, you'd come very close to beating the monster.

Yargore

07-15-2009, 06:02 AM

People were saying how you couldn't rely on DS and DM...but haste boost can count? Just seemed kinda funny.

I think that was because of madstone. But both DM and DF have been accounted for in my calcs, same with smite and DS.

You have to understand that me and AO doesn't count with haste boost on all the time, we get the average attacks per 5 minutes using a specific amount of haste boosts for each build.

Yargore

07-15-2009, 06:03 AM

Agreed... for whatever it's worth I calculated the DPS for the Punisher vs The Monster and over the 5 minute fight as well as against 100% fort mobs the Monster stays ahead by about ~30 DPS. Far different from my original calcs.

I told you so. :P

Valezra

07-15-2009, 08:43 AM

I told you so. :P

Yeah but this just makes you look like even more of a jerk. Also, your 548 DPS and 490 DPS numbers are completely imaginary. You can go on pretending you'll hit those numbers but it's preposterous. I even gave you the +8 Strength from Power Surge as if you could keep that up all the time and the Monster still doesn't come close to your numbers.

You didn't prove me wrong because your own numbers are skewed and flatly wrong. I proved to myself the DPS spread of the two builds and posted the results honestly.

This isn't a Monster DPS thread so I'm not going to argue the intricacies of the Monster DPS but suffice to say that I am not going to believe any of the garbage the Monster fanbois spew now that I know they aren't even working with real math.

Val

Valezra

07-15-2009, 08:55 AM

I'd almost say go 6 levels of ranger for tempest1, you'd come very close to beating the monster.

I tried this. Once you already have Zeal, gaining Tempest I adds very little to the DPS.

I ran the calcs though because I thought the same thing.

Against 0 fortification the current Punisher does about 28 more DPS. Against 50% fortifiation the Punisher and the Tempest/KoTC do exactly the same. Against 100% fort the Tempest/KotC does about 43 more DPS.

The Tempest/KotC does a little less than the Monster if not considering boosts at all. If looking at the 5 minute fight the Monster does about 40 DPS more average across all fortifications.

The 12 Fighter has been made very strong with Kensai and Haste Boosts. The fact that it takes only 6 Ranger to get the same speed boost as 14 Paladin makes it hard to do a primary paladin build. I have some ideas I am still working on.

Val

Kriogen

07-15-2009, 09:59 AM

.... I have some ideas I am still working on.

Val
Paladin 9 for max DF
Paladin 10 for DM II
Paladin 12 for PrE 2
Paladin 14 for Zeal
Paladin 15 for DM III
Paladin 18 for PrE 3
Paladin 20 for Capstone

Paladin 15/Rogue 5 or Paladin 15/Rogue3/Fighter 2?

Kriogen

07-15-2009, 10:14 AM

how about proving it? i asked aax for this in the monster thread, i asked you for it a week ago. i would ask yargore, but he would just ask you to do it. care to prove it or should we keep dreaming of the as-of-yet unproven unknown benefits of this otherwise useless feat? make us a video wyatt earp, please.
Quick Draw works as described by Absolute-Omniscience. It works like that since long long time, years.

It's one of the best feature. But only if you use it. Its very playstyle/build specific feature. It's usefull for builds with lots of "clickies" or something like a build that generates hate by intimidate and damage at the same time.

Video? How, it's less then a seconds. Can't see that, but you can feel it if you have a build that uses those "clickies" alot.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-15-2009, 10:46 AM

Quick Draw works as described by Absolute-Omniscience. It works like that since long long time, years.

It's one of the best feature. But only if you use it. Its very playstyle/build specific feature. It's usefull for builds with lots of "clickies" or something like a build that generates hate by intimidate and damage at the same time.

Video? How, it's less then a seconds. Can't see that, but you can feel it if you have a build that uses those "clickies" alot.

Thank you.
Finally someone that knows how it works.

I think it will be hard to show in a vid, but I will try to get one posted as soon as mod 9 hits and I aquire it on my Ravager. Until then, you'll have to believe me or ignore me Kingfisher; or just try it yourself.

I tried this. Once you already have Zeal, gaining Tempest I adds very little to the DPS.

Tempest always gives the same boost, as it's a static +10% attackspeed (+10% dps), +/- a per mille or two following Cforce's attackspeed estimator.

Yargore

07-15-2009, 10:50 AM

Yeah but this just makes you look like even more of a jerk. Also, your 548 DPS and 490 DPS numbers are completely imaginary. You can go on pretending you'll hit those numbers but it's preposterous. I even gave you the +8 Strength from Power Surge as if you could keep that up all the time and the Monster still doesn't come close to your numbers.

You didn't prove me wrong because your own numbers are skewed and flatly wrong. I proved to myself the DPS spread of the two builds and posted the results honestly.

This isn't a Monster DPS thread so I'm not going to argue the intricacies of the Monster DPS but suffice to say that I am not going to believe any of the garbage the Monster fanbois spew now that I know they aren't even working with real math.

Val

548 DPS is what the monster will have during the hasteboost, I know that is not an accurate estimation of a characters DPS and that's what I've been trying to tell you. You were the one using haste boost 100% and saying that it's accurate.

If you can't keep up a 1 min boost with 8 charges all the time you fail miserably. I keep myself hasted with pots all the time when a haster is not around, and guess what, those only last 30 sec.

I would love to see your calcs, as I believe that you once again have messed up. My calcs are solid and they are also over 5 minutes.

Oh, where did you post the results? Must have missed them.

Don't be so fast to judge, you have been wrong before and you'll see that have simply made another mistake if you dare to post your calcs.

Demoyn

07-15-2009, 01:15 PM

I see some of the "Monster" fanboi's have taken to following Val around on a crusade of sorts.

You may recall me being the first person in this thread to mention the Monster being better than this build still (in DPS, at least). I'm far from a Monster fanboi. In fact, I've probably attacked the Monster more than any other person on these forums, but math is math and facts are facts.

Thrudh

07-15-2009, 01:36 PM

People were saying how you couldn't rely on DS and DM...but haste boost can count? Just seemed kinda funny.

Yeah I think that's pretty funny too... DM is huge, and DS is pretty sweet too... Heck, even Smites matter... in a short 1 Round Pit Fiend fight, those Exalted Smites add up to some serious damage, and make the paladin one of the top contributors...

Paladins do good DPS NOW... In Mod 9, against evil outsiders, they'll do top-notch DPS with another 6d6 (KoTC and capstone) per swing.

Yargore

07-15-2009, 01:47 PM

You may recall me being the first person in this thread to mention the Monster being better than this build still (in DPS, at least). I'm far from a Monster fanboi. In fact, I've probably attacked the Monster more than any other person on these forums, but math is math and facts are facts.

Aye, this is no place for bias.

GentleHell

07-15-2009, 01:49 PM

Reading down the thread there seems to be some handbags thrown about, but ty to Valezra for putting up a decent alternative to the Monster for DPS.

Also, I hope everyone realises that strafing left instead of right makes more difference than poorly concocted DPS numbers i.e. 300 may as well equal 600 the way these things are done.

Riorik

07-15-2009, 02:05 PM

I understand all ya'll need something to do during the 12 month downtime Turbine gave us when they opted to build in F2P instead of advancing us to level 20 before the end of 2008 ;)

I also understand how the haste boost works...I've seen the delay...I understand about Quickdraw, etc etc.

I too find it hilarious to read all the hardcore "die die, kill you all, you are wrong" posts that often discuss scenario's that aren't quite equivalent...mostly true, but with a tiny bit of subjective non-fact based information thrown in that often skews everything...often to prove something.

I'm a math kind of guy...I was analyzing & powergaming DnD, Champions, etc back in the 80's. This kind of analysis was "childs play" considering those were my teen years. And, I find all of them incredibly Flawed.

They're all premised on a fixed game system and personal valuation of what you can afford to give up to go for the pre-Mod9 Holy Grail of DDO...DPS. A lot of builds, the Monster included, have abilities keyed to pre-Mod9...things like having their saving throws just high enough to avoid the (then known) mod8 difficult points...and we now know that Harry in Segment5 gets a new favorite ability that changes the requirements. Wanna guess if he starts to dispel you too, soon? Disjunction if you all farm boots? I'm not saying that dispel/disjunction happens/will happen...I'm just saying...think about the foundation of your argument and how EASY and SIMPLE it would be to remove it. Some like to wear blinders and say "it won't happen". It seems rather obvious that this way of thinking is naive.

Personally, I think the Monster sacrificed too much to get to where it (thinks it is)...builds like the Punisher even if they are a small percentage lower DPS, may have double the survivability given equal playing (twitch) skill. Good luck arguing the (moot) technical points of whether you're 1-5% more DPS or not.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-15-2009, 02:16 PM

Personally, I think the Monster sacrificed too much to get to where it (thinks it is)...builds like the Punisher even if they are a small percentage lower DPS, may have double the survivability given equal playing (twitch) skill. Good luck arguing the (moot) technical points of whether you're 1-5% more DPS or not.

Compare the ac, the builds are pretty much equal in survivability. The Monster have a lot higher ac, wf immunities being healed by two classes etc, this build has UMD scroll healing.

Just counting survivability and I'd still go with the monster, as it has a lot higher ac and wouldn't have to heal scroll 3 times a battle. Thus equalling a lot higher "solo" dps.

Thrudh

07-15-2009, 02:25 PM

Yargore

07-15-2009, 02:25 PM

They're all premised on a fixed game system and personal valuation of what you can afford to give up to go for the pre-Mod9 Holy Grail of DDO...DPS. A lot of builds, the Monster included, have abilities keyed to pre-Mod9...things like having their saving throws just high enough to avoid the (then known) mod8 difficult points...and we now know that Harry in Segment5 gets a new favorite ability that changes the requirements. Wanna guess if he starts to dispel you too, soon? Disjunction if you all farm boots? I'm not saying that dispel/disjunction happens/will happen...I'm just saying...think about the foundation of your argument and how EASY and SIMPLE it would be to remove it. Some like to wear blinders and say "it won't happen". It seems rather obvious that this way of thinking is naive.

What's your point?
That DPS calcs are not exact?
That the game can change?

I think everyone have figured that out by now.

kingfisher

07-15-2009, 02:29 PM

Aye, this is no place for bias.

what are you a ****ing pirate?

Aspenor

07-15-2009, 02:33 PM

Yargore

07-15-2009, 02:39 PM

what are you a ****ing pirate?

I'm not biased.
I admit when I'm wrong, and I often change my minds regarding builds.

But I do wish I were I Pirate! Yar har!

Yargore

07-15-2009, 02:40 PM

Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster Monster

is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great is great
But I prefer The Ravager:P

kingfisher

07-15-2009, 03:18 PM

But I do wish I were I Pirate! Yar har!

AYE, i can tell. shiver me timbers and blow me down matey. yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum.

Valezra

07-15-2009, 04:56 PM

I would love to see your calcs, as I believe that you once again have messed up. My calcs are solid and they are also over 5 minutes.

Oh, where did you post the results? Must have missed them.

Don't be so fast to judge, you have been wrong before and you'll see that have simply made another mistake if you dare to post your calcs.

Instead of me doing all the math why don't YOU show us the exact math to reach 548 DPS and 490 DPS. It is my opinion that the responsibility is on you to prove your build's DPS.

And for the record, my math hasn't been off one ounce this whole time. I made 2 mistakes:

1. I used DM III in my original build in liue of DM II.
2. I assumed the 490 DPS you claimed was during your 20s Haste Boost and was comparing my own 20 second haste boost against it.

Once I corrected MY numbers to reflect DM II my DPS dropped by a small amount which was to be expected. Nothing else besides DM II is wrong in my calcs... which are in the OP. (I will update them in a few)

Put your math where your mouth is and prove the Monster's DPS.

Val

gfunk

07-15-2009, 05:03 PM

baddax

07-15-2009, 05:05 PM

People were saying how you couldn't rely on DS and DM...but haste boost can count? Just seemed kinda funny.

IMO
95% of melee (1 on 1 trash) combat last 2 secconds or so.
90% of melee battles (1-5 vs 1-X trash) last 20 secconds or less . including portals.
5% of the toatal content or 99% of the mini boss / end boss fights last longer than 20 seconds but less than 5 minutes. If you are not hitting these numbers consistently then you have DPS issues.

a level 16 pally should have between 8-10 DM that last 1 minute each.
Zeal lasts as long as haste i believe.

Burst DPS is similar to a sorc/wiz who calculates DPS including max/emp/heightened 100% of the time.

Lastly IF 20 seconds of burst dps is acceptable then 1-2 minute burst dps is also acceptable in DPS calculations.also IMO.

baddax

07-15-2009, 05:06 PM

Does the Monster have evasion?

How much Dps does evasion give you?

baddax

07-15-2009, 05:10 PM

I'm not biased.
I admit when I'm wrong, and I often change my minds regarding builds.

But I do wish I were I Pirate! Yar har!

but realy, who doesnt? :D

Thrudh

07-15-2009, 05:13 PM

baddax

07-15-2009, 05:16 PM

Real math Vs (Virtual) wold. Which is superior?
How long would it take for each of these builds to take one portal down, in minutes and seconds? Fully buffed. just curious.

Valezra

07-15-2009, 05:21 PM

Compare the ac, the builds are pretty much equal in survivability. The Monster have a lot higher ac, wf immunities being healed by two classes etc, this build has UMD scroll healing.

Just counting survivability and I'd still go with the monster, as it has a lot higher ac and wouldn't have to heal scroll 3 times a battle. Thus equalling a lot higher "solo" dps.

If you want to discuss survivability:

Punisher has better saves. At level 20 it will have about 25-33% better chance to save against the d20 system.

Punisher can use Heal Scrolls between encounters and Lay on Hands during. The Monster has no self healing.

Both builds have usable DR.

The Monster and Punisher have about the same AC self buffed and is not worth mentioning for either build. (I like how the original Monster build includes +1 monk AC on an uncentered build)

Monster has WF immunities. Punisher has Paladin immunities. You can argue which is better but both are very nice either way.

Realistically the Monster has a much greater chance to pull aggro due to it's higher boosted DPS and because the Punisher can reduce it's hate to 90%. Meaning the Punisher is less likely to have aggro than the Monster... not getting swung at as much is hands down a big "survivability" meter.

Finally you talk about "solo" DPS. Who cares about solo DPS? I'd rather take my intimitank out and solo with half the DPS we're talking about here because she won't get hit, can stealth, can range, can self heal, and can turtle up. Leave "solo"ing out of this... both these toons aren't great solo builds.

Val

baddax

07-15-2009, 05:25 PM

If you want to discuss survivability:

Punisher has better saves. At level 20 it will have about 25-33% better chance to save against the d20 system.

Punisher can use Heal Scrolls between encounters and Lay on Hands during. The Monster has no self healing.

Both builds have usable DR.

The Monster and Punisher have about the same AC self buffed and is not worth mentioning for either build. (I like how the original Monster build includes +1 monk AC on an uncentered build)

Monster has WF immunities. Punisher has Paladin immunities. You can argue which is better but both are very nice either way.

Realistically the Monster has a much greater chance to pull aggro due to it's higher boosted DPS and because the Punisher can reduce it's hate to 90%. Meaning the Punisher is less likely to have aggro than the Monster... not getting swung at as much is hands down a big "survivability" meter.

Finally you talk about "solo" DPS. Who cares about solo DPS? I'd rather take my intimitank out and solo with half the DPS we're talking about here because she won't get hit, can stealth, can range, can self heal, and can turtle up. Leave "solo"ing out of this... both these toons aren't great solo builds.

Val

Qft but from what you said it sounds like they would make a great Duo?

Valezra

07-15-2009, 06:00 PM

Qft but from what you said it sounds like they would make a great Duo?

They really would!

Valezra

07-15-2009, 06:04 PM

with bard songs at +9, and some force rituals, the monster would be in the range suggested.. I got about 540 for a 20 second interval... could be a bit more or less depending on what exact attack rate you used.

**edit, I have it listed at 520.6 in a thread I was working on, with only +7 bard songs and no force rituals.

IF I put in Power Surge +8 Str and leave the song at +7 I only get 503 DPS ove rthe 20 second boost. What are you using for a seeker value? I have seen a wide variety of seeker assumptions for the Monster... maybe that's where we are not meeting up.

Oh, I downloaded Cforces excel calculator and incorporated it into my spreadsheet so depending on what boosts / how many / and other speed junk you got it simply reads it off of that calculator. I'm assuming that is still accurate?

Val

Yargore

07-15-2009, 06:10 PM

Instead of me doing all the math why don't YOU show us the exact math to reach 548 DPS and 490 DPS. It is my opinion that the responsibility is on you to prove your build's DPS.

And for the record, my math hasn't been off one ounce this whole time. I made 2 mistakes:

1. I used DM III in my original build in liue of DM II.
2. I assumed the 490 DPS you claimed was during your 20s Haste Boost and was comparing my own 20 second haste boost against it.

Once I corrected MY numbers to reflect DM II my DPS dropped by a small amount which was to be expected. Nothing else besides DM II is wrong in my calcs... which are in the OP. (I will update them in a few)

Put your math where your mouth is and prove the Monster's DPS.

Val

Ok, I'll post the math for 20 second DPS later, you can easily use it to figure out what you have done wrong in your calcs (hopefully).

Valezra

07-15-2009, 06:14 PM

The Punisher has been finalized.

Changed Fighter level to Paladin.

Lost:
1. Feat: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting
2. +2 Fort Save

Gained:
1. DM III
2. A few Spellpoints
3. 12 more seconds on Zeal, Divine Favor, Angelskin
4. +1 Reflex Save
5. +1 Will Save
6. Increase on Smight Damage
7. Increase on Lay on Hands
8. Extra 4th level spell
9. Additional Remove Disease
10. Additional Smite Evil

Once I looked at it the choice was clear. The build is an excellent DPS build with high survivability. Changing your AP can easily allow this build to adapt to whatever mod9+ throws at it.

Val

Valezra

07-15-2009, 06:15 PM

Ok, I'll post the math for 20 second DPS later, you can easily use it to figure out what you have done wrong in your calcs (hopefully).

lol... I'm sure.

Val

Absolute-Omniscience

07-15-2009, 07:39 PM

If you want to discuss survivability:

Punisher has better saves. At level 20 it will have about 25-33% better chance to save against the d20 system.

Monster saves:

Fortitude: 34(37) (30 + 4 GH + 2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Reflex: 36(39) (31 + 4 GH + 1 haste + 2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Will: 27(30) (23 + 4 GH +2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)

Your saves:

Fort: 34 (9 Paladin + 1 Rogue + 8 Cha + 1 Aura + 5 Con + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance +1 Halfling)
Reflex: 36 (5 Paladin + 4 Rogue +8 Cha + 1 Aura + 7 Dex + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance + 1 Haste + 1 Halfling)
Will: 29 (5 Paladin + 1 Rogue + 8 Cha + 1 Aura + 4 Wisdom + 4 Greater Hero + 5 Resistance + 1 Halfling)

You have 2 more will save, that's it. Though you will be able to enhance yours more. Either way, both have enough to save on everything except a 2. Except ref save for traps.

Punisher can use Heal Scrolls between encounters and Lay on Hands during. The Monster has no self healing.'

Indeed, point for punisher. (recall that everyone can use potions though)

The Monster and Punisher have about the same AC self buffed and is not worth mentioning for either build. (I like how the original Monster build includes +1 monk AC on an uncentered build)
Monster has 58 selfbuffed ac
Punisher has 54 self buffed ac
That's 20% on a d20 roll.

Monk Uncentered bonus is infact not working correctly. It gives +1 ac even if you aren't Uncentered. Ask anyone.

Monster has WF immunities. Punisher has Paladin immunities. You can argue which is better but both are very nice either way.

Aura of Courage (passive): Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise). Each ally within 10 feet of the paladin gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. This ability functions while the paladin is conscious, but not if she is unconscious or dead.
Divine Health (passive): Makes the paladin immune to all diseases.

Paladin is immune to fear and disease.

WF is Immune to sleep, energy drain, nausea, exhaustion, poison, disease, and paralysis effects.

So
Fear vs sleep, energy drain (enervation!), disease, exhaustion, poison, Nausea, and paralysis (hold!)
Wf is clearly superior. Especially as GH gives immunity to fear.

You also forgot to mention that the Monster can be healed
85% divine casters (a bit behind, but hardly noticable)
100% arcane (This is a GREAT boost, if you've every played a WF you'd know)

Realistically the Monster has a much greater chance to pull aggro due to it's higher boosted DPS and because the Punisher can reduce it's hate to 90%. Meaning the Punisher is less likely to have aggro than the Monster... not getting swung at as much is hands down a big "survivability" meter.

Finally you talk about "solo" DPS. Who cares about solo DPS? I'd rather take my intimitank out and solo with half the DPS we're talking about here because she won't get hit, can stealth, can range, can self heal, and can turtle up. Leave "solo"ing out of this... both these toons aren't great solo builds.

Val

Yeh, indeed. The monster will probably pull aggro, though both will have aggro in solo and in solo alone will survivability matter; as both have more than enough of it in raids and parties. With the Monster at peak due to being able to dps-tank suulo easier etc.

To who ever asked:
Yes, the Monster has got evasion. 2 levels of monk remember?

Link to Monster
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4807678&postcount=188

Yargore

07-15-2009, 07:42 PM

lol... I'm sure.

Val

Here we go:

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main off

5,5 5,5 Weapon
20 10 Strength
8 8 Power attack
6 6 Favored mob
4 4 Wep Speci
5 5 Weapon mod
3 3 Fighter dmg enhancements
2 2 Ram's Might
9 9 Song
1 1 prayer
-------------------------------
63.5 53,5 Normal
-------------------------------
8 8 SA Bonus
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 Acid
2,5 2,5 Slicing
1 1 Force
------------------------------
22 22 Effects
-------------------------------
85,5 75,5 Total
-------------------------------
190,5 160,5 Normal
22 22 Effects
11 11 Acid Burst
11 11 Acid Blast
14 14 Natural 20
30 30 Seeker
----------------------------
264,5 234,5 Critical
------------------------------
0 0 Attack 1
85,5 75,5 Attack 2
85,5 75,5 Attack 3
85,5 75,5 Attack 4
85,5 75,5 Attack 5
85,5 75,5 Attack 6
85,5 75,5 Attack 7
85,5 75,5 Attack 8
85,5 75,5 Attack 9
85,5 75,5 Attack 10
85,5 75,5 Attack 11
85,5 75,5 Attack 12
85,5 75,5 Attack 13
85,5 75,5 Attack 14
85,5 75,5 Attack 15
85,5 75,5 Attack 16
264,5 234,5 Attack 17
264,5 234,5 Attack 18
264,5 234,5 Attack 19
278,5 248,5 Attack 20
117,73 104,23 Average
-----------------------------
666,06 666,06 Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/tempest
148,06 148,06 Haste/tempest/Boost
------------------------------
78412 69421 DMG/5M
29566 Total/M
261,37 231,4 DMG/S
-------------------------
492,78 Total/S

And for 100% haste boost:

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main off

5,5 5,5 Weapon
20 10 Strength
8 8 Power attack
6 6 Favored mob
4 4 Wep Speci
5 5 Weapon mod
3 3 Fighter dmg enhancements
2 2 Ram's Might
9 9 Song
1 1 prayer
-------------------------------
63.5 53,5 Normal
-------------------------------
8 8 SA Bonus
7 7 Holy
3,5 3,5 Acid
2,5 2,5 Slicing
1 1 Force
------------------------------
22 22 Effects
-------------------------------
85,5 75,5 Total
-------------------------------
190,5 160,5 Normal
22 22 Effects
11 11 Acid Burst
11 11 Acid Blast
14 14 Natural 20
30 30 Seeker
----------------------------
264,5 234,5 Critical
------------------------------
0 0 Attack 1
85,5 75,5 Attack 2
85,5 75,5 Attack 3
85,5 75,5 Attack 4
85,5 75,5 Attack 5
85,5 75,5 Attack 6
85,5 75,5 Attack 7
85,5 75,5 Attack 8
85,5 75,5 Attack 9
85,5 75,5 Attack 10
85,5 75,5 Attack 11
85,5 75,5 Attack 12
85,5 75,5 Attack 13
85,5 75,5 Attack 14
85,5 75,5 Attack 15
85,5 75,5 Attack 16
264,5 234,5 Attack 17
264,5 234,5 Attack 18
264,5 234,5 Attack 19
278,5 248,5 Attack 20
117,73 104,23 Average
-----------------------------
740,28 740,28 Swings. (148.06 * 5)
83 83 Normal
148,06 148,06 Haste/tempest/Boost
------------------------------
87149 77155 DMG/5M
32861 Total/M
290,5 257,18 DMG/S
-------------------------
547,68 Total/S

Now please tell me where my numbers are "numbers are skewed and flatly wrong."
And why you are "not going to believe any of the garbage the Monster fanbois spew now that I know they aren't even working with real math."

Don't insult me when you are the one who keeps doing things wrong. It just makes you look like a hypocrit.

Inspire

07-15-2009, 07:47 PM

Riorik

07-15-2009, 10:51 PM

Fortitude: 34(37) (30 + 4 GH + 2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Reflex: 36(39) (31 + 4 GH + 1 haste + 2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Will: 27(30) (23 + 4 GH +2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)

Is this a misquote of "The Monsters" Saves or at least an "non equivalent" post that uses more equipment not being applied to "The Punisher"?
I'm not sure it's even a 'fair' comparison to include the favored bonus.

Saves Unbuffed
Fortitude: 27 (29 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Reflex: 27 (29 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Will: 17 (20 vs spells + 1 vs favored)

Saves Self Buffed
Fortitude: 31(34) (27 + 4 GH + 2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Reflex: 32(35) (27 + 4 GH + 1 haste + 2 vs spells + 1 vs favored)
Will: 21(25) (17 + 4 GH +2 vs spells + 1 vs enchantments + 1 vs favored)

Able to boost it with +3 to all saves using: Head, +1 save ritual.

Unless the Punisher already has this included, I'd say we're back to a 10% advantage to the Punisher.

Indeed, point for punisher. (recall that everyone can use potions though)

Isn't this statement sort of condescending and dishonest at the sametime...a bonus! I mean, come on...anybody can use a potion, but using potions is not even vaguely equiavalent to the utility of using Heal scrolls or any of the other things you can UMD. To me, this is a HUGE point for the Punisher.

When I went back and added up the Monsters' saves...here's what I ended up with:

Fighter 12 8 4 4
Ranger 6 5 5 2
Monk 2 3 3 3
Stats 7 8 5
Resistance 5 5 5
HoGF 2 2 2
GH 4 4 4
Ritual 1 1 1
Vs Spells 2 2 2
Haste 0 1 0
Favored? 1 1 1

38 36 29

I still question including the Favored Enemy bonus at all and Haste should be added to the Punisher for an equivalent comparison...same with the HoGF & Ritual Save bonus.
I am assuming that the Punisher may not have the action points to buy all the paladin aura enhancements that it could get if it wanted to do so.
However, it's saves look like:

Paladin 14 9 4 4
Rogue 5 1 4 1

Stats 5 7 4
ChaPal 8 8 8
Resistance 5 5 5
HoGF 2 2 2
GH 4 4 4
Ritual 1 1 1
Halfling 1 1 1
Haste 0 1 0
Aura 1 1 1

37 38 31

Valezra

07-15-2009, 11:42 PM

Now please tell me where my numbers are "numbers are skewed and flatly wrong."
And why you are "not going to believe any of the garbage the Monster fanbois spew now that I know they aren't even working with real math."

Don't insult me when you are the one who keeps doing things wrong. It just makes you look like a hypocrit.

1. Your calculations assume Power Surge and double Madstone is up 100% of the time. This is highly unrealistic.

2. You assume Acid Blast on both hands yet +4 insight on one weapon. So which is it?

3. Your calcs include +14 for Acid Blast on a roll of 20 yet you assign an additional +11 for Acid Blast in the calculations.

4. You assume +9 for bards songs, yet in my OP I clearly stated I was using +7 songs.

"Skewed"? Oh yes!
"Flatly Wrong"? Yep.

Again, I will point out. I originally used the two wrong numbers when comparing the builds (ie the Punisher 20s Boost vs the Monster's 5 Minute DPS) but my math has never been wrong. <Edit - not true necessarily, my formulae have always been correct but my assumptions were wrong - ie DM III in the original build> YOUR math on the other hand is just wrong. I even was nice enough to point out just 4 problems I quickly found.

If you are insulted I apologize. I just assume when I'm talking calculations with someone the other person involved knows how to calculate what we're talking about. I figured you didn't and now I see it's true.

Hypocrite? yep... but not me.

Val

Valezra

07-15-2009, 11:47 PM

What's your problem man?
I have posted the calcs now and they are indeed correct.

I have been correcting Val the entire thread, he should thank me, not insult me.

I have never insulted you. Your calcs are "indeed" wrong. Perhaps its that "new" math they are teaching at alternative education schools? <-- there I threw that in to make you a martyr since you insist on claiming I've been insulting you.

Val

Yargore

07-16-2009, 12:27 AM

1. Your calculations assume Power Surge and double Madstone is up 100% of the time. This is highly unrealistic.

Nay, they assume a +4 str tome. Using +1 str on DT armor until you get one in mod 9 works perfectly fine aswell (that's infact what I had on my DT armor on my Monster on the EU server)

Powersurge 100% is not unrealistic by any means.
8 minutes worth if PS is indeed enough for a 5 minute fight.

2. You assume Acid Blast on both hands yet +4 insight on one weapon. So which is it?

Insight 4 on DT armor to use when AC will help you. Dunno if the posts say that but it's what I made on my Monster.

3. Your calcs include +14 for Acid Blast on a roll of 20 yet you assign an additional +11 for Acid Blast in the calculations.

Acid blast = Same burst effect as acid burst and an aditional 4d6 on 20s.

4. You assume +9 for bards songs, yet in my OP I clearly stated I was using +7 songs.

I don't agree with counting +7 songs.

"Skewed"? Oh yes!
"Flatly Wrong"? Yep.

Nope and nope.

Yargore

07-16-2009, 12:31 AM

I have never insulted you. Your calcs are "indeed" wrong. Perhaps its that "new" math they are teaching at alternative education schools? <-- there I threw that in to make you a martyr since you insist on claiming I've been insulting you.

Val

That's not what I meant.
Kingfisher said that you should insult me, and I said that you shouldn't insult me, but thank me instead.

I can see how it is easy to misunderstand it, so I apologize.

Valezra

07-16-2009, 12:44 AM

Monster saves:

Your saves:

You have 2 more will save, that's it. Though you will be able to enhance yours more. Either way, both have enough to save on everything except a 2. Except ref save for traps.

Indeed, point for punisher. (recall that everyone can use potions though)

Monster has 58 selfbuffed ac
Punisher has 54 self buffed ac
That's 20% on a d20 roll.

Monk Uncentered bonus is infact not working correctly. It gives +1 ac even if you aren't Uncentered. Ask anyone.

Paladin is immune to fear and disease.

So
Fear vs sleep, energy drain (enervation!), disease, exhaustion, poison, Nausea, and paralysis (hold!)
Wf is clearly superior. Especially as GH gives immunity to fear.

You also forgot to mention that the Monster can be healed
85% divine casters (a bit behind, but hardly noticable)
100% arcane (This is a GREAT boost, if you've every played a WF you'd know)

Yeh, indeed. The monster will probably pull aggro, though both will have aggro in solo and in solo alone will survivability matter; as both have more than enough of it in raids and parties. With the Monster at peak due to being able to dps-tank suulo easier etc.

To who ever asked:
Yes, the Monster has got evasion. 2 levels of monk remember?

Link to Monster
http://community.codemasters.com/forum/showpost.php?p=4807678&postcount=188

1. The punisher saves are higher and can be boosted WAY higher than the Monster via AP which the build has available. I doubt 30ish saves are gonna cut it in mod9+ for melee DPS builds. Some of the trap saves and Elite boss saves in current content already requires over 30 save.

2. The Monster has 51 self buffed AC. I got that from the link you posted. You just blatantly lied about that. If you want to count a 60 second Shield clicky for +2 AC have fun carrying a bag full of clickies. And if you want to count double madstone then I guess I get to as well which puts the Punisher at 58 AC vs the Monster's 56 AC... shield clickies... lol

3. There is no real big difference in saves. Deathward can be cast by the Paladin and poison immunity items abound so you have no argument on those items. The only thing the WF gets a tip of the hat to is paralysis immunity.

4. So you can be healed by casters? That may be a little icing on the cake but it's hardly something to boast. The folks that will be mass curing and healing you the most will always have to dump a lil more into you because of the 85% efficiency. Not a game breaker but don't try and flip it around as if WF are easier to keep up because a caster can heal them.

5. DPS tank suulo? LoL... I didn't know we were building tanks. In that case I'll put my Hatetank up against the Monster ANY day of the week for tanking. But seriously, we're talking DPS toons, not soloist, and not tanks.

Val

Valezra

07-16-2009, 12:51 AM

Acid blast = Same burst effect as acid burst and an aditional 4d6 on 20s.

I can't find this anywhere and I have never seen it work like that. Could be an oversight on my part but I doubt it.

I disagree with your other responses. You also don't mention how you'll stay double madstoned while not holding aggro and getting SA. It can only be one or the other.

Val

Comfortably

07-16-2009, 01:40 AM

To quote DDOWIKI; (http://ddowiki.com/page/Altar_of_Devastation_-_Manufactured_Ingredient_Recipes)

# Elemental Blast (Fire, Ice, Shocking, Acid): 1d10 * (critical multiplier -1) on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal

2x multiplier = 1d10 on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal
3x multiplier = 2d10 on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal
4x multiplier = 3d10 on Critical, + 4d6 on Vorpal

Riorik

07-16-2009, 06:50 AM

Acid blast = Same burst effect as acid burst and an aditional 4d6 on 20s.

I don't agree with counting +7 songs.

Nope and nope.

Was this like how in DnD you can "attempt to disbelieve" things you hope are illusions?

I'm a little curious...Comfortably seems to be politely stating that you're using the wrong amount for Acid Burst...on a x3 Khopesh it should be 2d10, not 4d6 (right?)

You're choosing to use +9 songs even though the OP identified he was using +7 songs...which makes your calculations based on different assumptions (I'd call that technically wrong) and you're saying you don't agree?!?

And then apparently Valezra points out that you're using completely different assumptions on things like being double-madstone ALL the time. I'm willing to agree that single madstone may be fair, but double? You can have 20 sets of boots...but once you're madstoned off a PROC, you can't trigger the boots for the clickie version. This guarantees some sort of downtime from being able to maintain DOUBLE madstone.

And lastly, you're just claiming you don't agree with the conclusions that you did anything wrong?

lmao...uh, dude? So I think the term EPIC FAIL is a bit strong...but it does seem like some errors were actually made. I don't think only a really nice DM would let you even attempt to disbelieve again...but if it's actually real, even that doesn't help much.

Yargore

07-16-2009, 07:11 AM

I can't find this anywhere and I have never seen it work like that. Could be an oversight on my part but I doubt it.

I disagree with your other responses. You also don't mention how you'll stay double madstoned while not holding aggro and getting SA. It can only be one or the other.

Val

I guess you never had an acid blast weapon then. Don't bo so quick to say that I'm wrong when you actually don't know what you're talking about.

I don't stay double madstoned all the time. I explained where I got the extra str from:
"Nay, they assume a +4 str tome. Using +1 str on DT armor until you get one in mod 9 works perfectly fine aswell (that's infact what I had on my DT armor on my Monster on the EU server)".

Disagree all you want, it's still correct.

I prefer to use 9 damage songs in my calcs to show the potential DPS, so what? It hardly makes the calcs wrong.

Yargore

07-16-2009, 07:21 AM

Was this like how in DnD you can "attempt to disbelieve" things you hope are illusions?

I'm a little curious...Comfortably seems to be politely stating that you're using the wrong amount for Acid Burst...on a x3 Khopesh it should be 2d10, not 4d6 (right?)

You're choosing to use +9 songs even though the OP identified he was using +7 songs...which makes your calculations based on different assumptions (I'd call that technically wrong) and you're saying you don't agree?!?

And then apparently Valezra points out that you're using completely different assumptions on things like being double-madstone ALL the time. I'm willing to agree that single madstone may be fair, but double? You can have 20 sets of boots...but once you're madstoned off a PROC, you can't trigger the boots for the clickie version. This guarantees some sort of downtime from being able to maintain DOUBLE madstone.

And lastly, you're just claiming you don't agree with the conclusions that you did anything wrong?

lmao...uh, dude? So I think the term EPIC FAIL is a bit strong...but it does seem like some errors were actually made. I don't think only a really nice DM would let you even attempt to disbelieve again...but if it's actually real, even that doesn't help much.

Comfortably shows us that acid blast deal 11 damage (2d10) on every crit and an extra 14(4d6) on 20s. Oh guess what? Thats' EXACTLY what I've used in my calc.

The OP prefer 7 damage, I prefer 9 damage. 2 damage won't change the outcome of the comparison either.
Are you telling me that I'm wrong for using the damage that bard songs actaully gives? :rolleyes:

Sigh... Let me quote myself:
"Nay, they assume a +4 str tome. Using +1 str on DT armor until you get one in mod 9 works perfectly fine aswell (that's infact what I had on my DT armor on my Monster on the EU server)".
Where did I mention double madstone? That's right, I didn't.

Epic fail is the correct term to use for your post. Come back when you actually have a clue.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-16-2009, 09:58 AM

1. The punisher saves are higher and can be boosted WAY higher than the Monster via AP which the build has available. I doubt 30ish saves are gonna cut it in mod9+ for melee DPS builds. Some of the trap saves and Elite boss saves in current content already requires over 30 save.
Yes, I already agreed; you can have better saves. But trust me, 30's will be enough in mod 9.

2. The Monster has 51 self buffed AC. I got that from the link you posted. You just blatantly lied about that. If you want to count a 60 second Shield clicky for +2 AC have fun carrying a bag full of clickies. And if you want to count double madstone then I guess I get to as well which puts the Punisher at 58 AC vs the Monster's 56 AC... shield clickies... lol
Read it again 51 is unbuffed, self buffed:
58

Remove shield
56
remove madstone and add barkskin pot (No one said anything about double madstone, please learn how to do ac breakdowns and learn how to count it, as you clearly can not.)
55 self buffed.

3. There is no real big difference in saves. Deathward can be cast by the Paladin and poison immunity items abound so you have no argument on those items. The only thing the WF gets a tip of the hat to is paralysis immunity.
Indeed, saves are pretty equal. Go ahead and fight those beholders will yeh :P. Negative level immunity is the best part of the WF immunities.

4. So you can be healed by casters? That may be a little icing on the cake but it's hardly something to boast. The folks that will be mass curing and healing you the most will always have to dump a lil more into you because of the 85% efficiency. Not a game breaker but don't try and flip it around as if WF are easier to keep up because a caster can heal them.
I think it's great, and it is.

5. DPS tank suulo? LoL... I didn't know we were building tanks. In that case I'll put my Hatetank up against the Monster ANY day of the week for tanking. But seriously, we're talking DPS toons, not soloist, and not tanks.

Val

Attack him, get aggro no one pulls it from you as Monster, you are wf so can be healed by a lone caster = very good for "DPS-tanking" suulo. Ignore it if you will, but then you have never played VOD without an intimidate tank.
Highest possible dps + WF = AWESOME for vod, especially elite when the intimidate DC is through the roof.

We're talking survivability at the moment, and survivability is basically only needed for solo, so...

Riorik

07-16-2009, 02:22 PM

Epic fail is the correct term to use for your post.

Glad you agree that you Epic Failed.

Valezra

07-16-2009, 07:11 PM

Yargore

07-16-2009, 07:34 PM

I could go on forever showing you two all the mistakes you continue to make but I'm getting bored of this thread. The build is done... the numbers are up (I will update for the extra blast effect later). Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

Val

I was not the one advocating 100% boost efficiency in the first place, I told you that it was inaccurate!
I only made that calc to compare to your 100% boost efficiency calc. Guess why I also made a calc for 5 minutes?

kingfisher

07-16-2009, 08:02 PM

I could go on forever showing you two all the mistakes you continue to make but I'm getting bored of this thread. The build is done... the numbers are up (I will update for the extra blast effect later). Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

Val

i am shocked that these types of shenannigans occer here ;)

JayDubya

07-16-2009, 08:27 PM

Hi Yargore. I'm trying to follow the math here, and i have a couple of questions

[QUOTE=Yargore;2304949]Here we go:

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main off

-------------------------------
63.5 53,5 Normal
------------------------------
22 22 Effects
-------------------------------
85,5 75,5 Total
-------------------------------
264,5 234,5 Critical
------------------------------

Everything above this makes perfect sense

0 0 Attack 1
...
...
...
278,5 248,5 Attack 20
117,73 104,23 Average
-----------------------------

I didn't actually do the math, but I'm assuming the above averages are correct. It's the section below that has me totally confused. You gloss over a bunch of the details, and I can't reproduce these results by filling in the holes

666,06 666,06 Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/tempest
148,06 148,06 Haste/tempest/Boost

Can you explain this above mechanic?

83 - is this the normal number of swings per minute?

116.25 - this is the number of swings when hasted, with tempest (+25% and +10% respectively for a total of +35%), correct? - but I can't get to 116.25 unless I bring Tempest up to +15%. What am I missing?

148.06 - this is the number of swings in 5 minutes when hasted (+25%), with tempest (+10%) and Boosted II (+20%)? - Again, I can't make those numbers reach 148, unless I get an extra 15% somewhere. So even Boosted III doesn't quite do it.

Lastly:
(8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.

What is this mechanic? Why 8/3 and 7/3 - are these the fractions of 5 minutes you spend in boost vs. in haste? I converted the 8 boosts to 160 seconds, and determined that that represents 53% of a 5 minute period, and then multiplied it out - it came out the same, but I'm curious why you chose 8/3 and 7/3.

Thanks! I'm contemplating making a web application for these kinds of calculations (assuming one doesn't already exist) and I want to make sure I understand all the mechanics.

baddax

07-16-2009, 08:30 PM

Hi Yargore. I'm trying to follow the math here, and i have a couple of questions

[quote=Yargore;2304949]Here we go:

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main off

-------------------------------
63.5 53,5 Normal
------------------------------
22 22 Effects
-------------------------------
85,5 75,5 Total
-------------------------------
264,5 234,5 Critical
------------------------------

Everything above this makes perfect sense

0 0 Attack 1
...
...
...
278,5 248,5 Attack 20
117,73 104,23 Average
-----------------------------

I didn't actually do the math, but I'm assuming the above averages are correct. It's the section below that has me totally confused. You gloss over a bunch of the details, and I can't reproduce these results by filling in the holes

666,06 666,06 Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/tempest
148,06 148,06 Haste/tempest/Boost

Can you explain this above mechanic?

83 - is this the normal number of swings per minute?

116.25 - this is the number of swings when hasted, with tempest (+25% and +10% respectively for a total of +35%), correct? - but I can't get to 116.25 unless I bring Tempest up to +15%. What am I missing?

148.06 - this is the number of swings in 5 minutes when hasted (+25%), with tempest (+10%) and Boosted II (+20%)? - Again, I can't make those numbers reach 148, unless I get an extra 15% somewhere. So even Boosted III doesn't quite do it.

Lastly:
(8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.

What is this mechanic? Why 8/3 and 7/3 - are these the fractions of 5 minutes you spend in boost vs. in haste? I converted the 8 boosts to 160 seconds, and determined that that represents 53% of a 5 minute period, and then multiplied it out - it came out the same, but I'm curious why you chose 8/3 and 7/3.

Thanks! I'm contemplating making a web application for these kinds of calculations (assuming one doesn't already exist) and I want to make sure I understand all the mechanics.

madstone boots?

Valezra

07-16-2009, 10:33 PM

Oh god, are you serious?!

I was not the one advocating 100% boost efficiency in the first place, I told you that it was inaccurate!

Advocating? I already said I used that assumption originally. Why are you yelling again?

I only made that calc to compare to your 100% boost efficiency calc. Guess why I also made a calc for 5 minutes?

A **** hypocrit is what you are.

***EDIT*** not doing this anymore... you have your assumptions I have mine. Have fun with yours I'll have fun with mine.

Val

Yargore

07-16-2009, 10:41 PM

Advocating? I already said I used that assumption originally. Why are you yelling again?

Why do you complain about me using 100% boost in the calc that's made to compare you yuor 100% boost calc?
I really don't get that.

"Nah nah nah booboo." What a whiner...

Every time I made an incorrect assumption I admitted it, changed it, and moved on. When we point out absolute flaws in YOUR assumptions however you ignore what we're saying... and you continue to use unrealistic assumptions.

Now you are resorting to flat name calling. LOL... grow up kid.

Val

What is it that I'm ignoring? Please tell me.
Using 100% powersurge is not unrealistic. If you're talking about 100% haste boost you should know that the one and only reason why I made a 100% haste boost calc was because you made one.
Comparing 53% monster to 100% Punisher is not exaclty fair now is it?

I called you a hypocrit for saying that I didn't realise that using 100% haste boost was unrealistic when the only calc you have posted in using 100% haste boost.
I said many times that it was inaccurate and not realistic. So i don't know where you got that I believed that it was from? Care to explain?

Yargore

07-16-2009, 11:08 PM

Hi Yargore. I'm trying to follow the math here, and i have a couple of questions

Fgt 12/ Mnk2 /Rng 6 Warforged
Main off

-------------------------------
63.5 53,5 Normal
------------------------------
22 22 Effects
-------------------------------
85,5 75,5 Total
-------------------------------
264,5 234,5 Critical
------------------------------

Everything above this makes perfect sense

0 0 Attack 1
...
...
...
278,5 248,5 Attack 20
117,73 104,23 Average
-----------------------------

I didn't actually do the math, but I'm assuming the above averages are correct. It's the section below that has me totally confused. You gloss over a bunch of the details, and I can't reproduce these results by filling in the holes

666,06 666,06 Swings/5M (8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.
83 83 Normal
116,25 116,25 Haste/tempest
148,06 148,06 Haste/tempest/Boost

Can you explain this above mechanic?

83 - is this the normal number of swings per minute?

116.25 - this is the number of swings when hasted, with tempest (+25% and +10% respectively for a total of +35%), correct? - but I can't get to 116.25 unless I bring Tempest up to +15%. What am I missing?

148.06 - this is the number of swings in 5 minutes when hasted (+25%), with tempest (+10%) and Boosted II (+20%)? - Again, I can't make those numbers reach 148, unless I get an extra 15% somewhere. So even Boosted III doesn't quite do it.

The Monster gets haste boost IV, and I used the attack speed increase estimator found here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819&highlight=cforce.

Lastly:
(8/3 * 148,06 + 7/3 * 116.25) 8 haste boosts.

What is this mechanic? Why 8/3 and 7/3 - are these the fractions of 5 minutes you spend in boost vs. in haste? I converted the 8 boosts to 160 seconds, and determined that that represents 53% of a 5 minute period, and then multiplied it out - it came out the same, but I'm curious why you chose 8/3 and 7/3.

I use "Number of haste boosts" / 3 * hasted boosted attack speed + (15- "Number of haste boosts")/3 * unboosted attackspeed.

5 minutes consists of 15 20 second periods and 15/3 minutes = 5 minutes. If 8 of those 20 sec periods are boosted that means that 8/3 of the 5 minutes are boosted.

I use this method because it makes it very easy to change the number of boosts on the characters.

Thanks! I'm contemplating making a web application for these kinds of calculations (assuming one doesn't already exist) and I want to make sure I understand all the mechanics.

You're welcome, let me know it somethig still is unclear.

Valezra

07-16-2009, 11:13 PM

[QUOTE=Valezra;2307206]Advocating? I already said I used that assumption originally. Why are you yelling again?

Why do you complain about me using 100% boost in the calc that's made to compare you yuor 100% boost calc?
I really don't get that.

What is it that I'm ignoring? Please tell me.
Using 100% powersurge is not unrealistic. If you're talking about 100% haste boost you should know that the one and only reason why I made a 100% haste boost calc was because you made one.
Comparing 53% monster to 100% Punisher is not exaclty fair now is it?

I called you a hypocrit for saying that I didn't realise that using 100% haste boost was unrealistic when the only calc you have posted in using 100% haste boost.
I said many times that it was inaccurate and not realistic. So i don't know where you got that I believed that it was from? Care to explain?

And the merry-go-round continues. You are basically just asking me to repeat myself without end now. ::bored::

tip - "Hypocrite" <--- notice the "e" at the end.

Val

Yargore

07-16-2009, 11:29 PM

And the merry-go-round continues. You are basically just asking me to repeat myself without end now. ::bored::

tip - "Hypocrite" <--- notice the "e" at the end.

Val

Oh noes, I made a spelling error!

Now I found that you have changed the calc in the OP be for average of 5 minutes. That's great. It's the exact same as I use for all my calcs.
Except for one, that I did because you asked me to, then you come here and bash me for making a 100% haste boost calc.

See here:

Instead of me doing all the math why don't YOU show us the exact math to reach 548 DPS and 490 DPS. It is my opinion that the responsibility is on you to prove your build's DPS.

Before you attacked me and said that I think 548 is an accurate DPS number I said this:

548 DPS is what the monster will have during the hasteboost, I know that is not an accurate estimation of a characters DPS and that's what I've been trying to tell you.

Your calc showed the DPS during the 20 seconds haste boost is active, but that doesn't give the full picture now does it?

You have to understand that me and AO doesn't count with haste boost on all the time, we get the average attacks per 5 minutes using a specific amount of haste boosts for each build.

I must say that i got very surprised when you said this:

Everyone else but you two can see how 548 DPS is unrealistic and will never be realised, but you'll never be convinced so meh...

It made me wonder if you actually have been reading your own thread?

Valezra

07-16-2009, 11:36 PM

Yargore

07-17-2009, 12:26 AM

Oooo! I wanna snip and paste my own selected text of this thread to prove some obscure point. Oh, wait... no I don't.

Did anyone else hear the sounds of Yargore punching the air?

PS - You spelled it wrong at least 3 times which shows you don't know how to spell the word. I'm not the spelling police but spelling the same word wrong at least three times?... ::rolleyes::

Val

The point I've been trying to make is not obscure.
I've been trying to see this from your POV, and I now wonder if I didn't misunderstand one of your posts. PM sent asking for clarification.

Yea, I didn't know that there was an "e" at the end, I never said it was a typo, I said it was a spelling error.

Valezra

07-17-2009, 12:44 AM

I was just thinking... if when people look into a characters potential total DPS they consider everything that character can possibly throw out when all the stars are aligned shouldn't the Punisher build include Smites and Divine Sacrifice?

Divine Sacrifice II is 7d6 per hand every 3 seconds and +1 crit range (I'll get to that in a second). The Light Damage from DS is 24.5 damage * 2 hands = 49 damage

49 damage / 3 seconds = 16.33 DPS

16.33 * 19/20 = 15.52 Weighted DPS

The extra crit range from those attacks will manifest 1 additional crit minus normal base damage 1/20 of the time. This occurs (300 sec)/(3 sec / DS) = 100 times per hand over a 5 minute period. The additional damage is 1/20 of that or 5 times per hand.

Formula:
Mainhand = 5 * (Base Crit - Base Hit) = 5 * (154.5 - 45.5) = 545 damage
Offhand = 5 * (Base Crit - Base Hit) = 5 * (136.5 - 39.5) = 485 damage

Total bonus damage over 5 minutes = 1030 dmg

1030 dmg / 300 seconds = 3.43 DPS

Smites:
4 + 4 + 2 smites and 3 recharges over 5 minutes = 13 Smites
Bonus damage = 10+3*(15-1) = 52 per hand

Crit threat range increase = +1
Crit multiplier increase = +2

So 14/20 of the attempts are just bonus damage and 5/20 of the attempts are critX5.

Total bonus damage: 52*2 * (14/20) * 13 = 946.4 dmg / 5 minutes

Total critX5 additional damage: (((517.5 + 487.5) - (45.5 + 39.5))*1/20)* 13 + (((517.5 + 487.5) - (154.5+136.5))*4/20)* 13 = 598 + 1856.4 = 2454.4 dmg / 5 minutes
+
Smite + DPS: (946.4+2454.4) / 300 s = 11.336 DPS

So net gain over 5 minutes from DS and Smites is 15.52 + 3.43 + 11.336 DPS = + 30.286 DPS

Now... adjusting the base numbers from my OP to account for +9 bard songs and +11 Acid crits from the Blast effect my new base DPS/5m value is 479.6.

Total B*lls-to-the-wall DPS is 479.6 + 30.286 = 510 DPS

The 20 second burst value is 530.3 + 15.52 + 3.43 + 3400.8(6/13)/20 = 627.7 DPS

The calculator spreadsheet I used to get these numbers also gave me 547.6 DPS for the Monster 20 Second Boost DPS using the preferred assumptions from Yargore's own DPS breakdown earlier... so there should be no debate that the calculator is somehow wrong.

Divine Sacrifice and Exalted Smites are a very real and spammable. Their contribution to DPS when included puts the Punisher on the map with incredibly high DPS output.

Check my math, if I'm wrong I will happily fix it but as it currently stands the Punisher does more DPS than the Monster for both the 20s fight and the 5 minute fight. It appears I was wrong in my earlier posts where I thought the Monster was higher.

***EDIT: FIXED AN ERROR I FOUND***

Val

Valezra

07-17-2009, 01:15 AM

Made a couple corrections and revised the 20 second burst DPS value to be mathematically accurate with the burst power of Smites.

Val

Yargore

07-17-2009, 05:30 AM

STATS
Str: 30 (16 + 4 Tome + 4 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
Dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
Con: 20 (12 + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
Wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
Cha: 26 (14 + 3 Tome +1 Level +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

If you drop str to 15 and bump cha to 15 and take all level ups in str you gain 1 buildpoint.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 06:45 AM

If you drop str to 15 and bump cha to 15 and take all level ups in str you gain 1 buildpoint.

Yes, and you also lose 1 point of str.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 06:49 AM

Yes, and you also lose 1 point of str.

No, if you care to read it he has planned a level in cha. -1 starting str +1 starting cha +1 str through levels = earn 1 build point with the same outcome on str and cha.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 06:52 AM

Yes, and you also lose 1 point of str.

Sigh. Learn to read before you comment please.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 06:55 AM

JayDubya

07-17-2009, 09:01 AM

You don't have quickdraw so your haste boosts take 1.2 sec to activate.

Question - are you making no attacks during that 1.2 seconds, or does it take that long for the haste boost to kick in?

Because in any fight long enough that you use up all of your haste boosts and then some (say, for example, 5 minutes), the fact that it takes an extra 1.2 seconds to kick off is not a big deal, if it doesn't affect the attacks during the boost turn-on.

On the other hand, if you lose attacks during the 1.2 seconds, then it has a modest mathematical effect. Specifically:

If you have 8 haste boosts and you spend 1.2 seconds for each one "idle", you waste 10 seconds of DPS during the fight, while if you have 0.6 second boosts, you only waste 5 seconds. Over 5 minutes, that's 1 1/2% reduction in your overall DPS

Yargore

07-17-2009, 09:39 AM

Question - are you making no attacks during that 1.2 seconds, or does it take that long for the haste boost to kick in?

Because in any fight long enough that you use up all of your haste boosts and then some (say, for example, 5 minutes), the fact that it takes an extra 1.2 seconds to kick off is not a big deal, if it doesn't affect the attacks during the boost turn-on.

On the other hand, if you lose attacks during the 1.2 seconds, then it has a modest mathematical effect. Specifically:

If you have 8 haste boosts and you spend 1.2 seconds for each one "idle", you waste 10 seconds of DPS during the fight, while if you have 0.6 second boosts, you only waste 5 seconds. Over 5 minutes, that's 1 1/2% reduction in your overall DPS

Yes, you are not making any attacks during those 1.2 seconds.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 10:34 AM

Using the attackspeed / boost calculation he gave you ealier just add in
hasted boosted attacks * "Number of haste boosts/3"*0,97 + "(15-number of haste boosts)/3 * Hasted attackspeed.

Replace the "0,97" with "0,94" if you do not have quickdraw.
As 1,2 seconds of 20 seconds is 6%, reduce the total amount of haste boosts by 6%, or 3% if you have quickdraw.

We do not however use this in our calcs, as it has not yet been generally accepted by the community that Quickdraw does reduce the activation time, which it does.

Hopefully I will be able to prove it in mod 9 when I take quickdraw with my Ravager and Fraps it.
And then we will update all of our calculations to this formula.

Thrudh

07-17-2009, 10:43 AM

Thrudh

07-17-2009, 10:53 AM

You guys do take min/maxing to the nth degree... and you seem to care a lot about paper/math results and not in-game results

It seems to me that ultimate DPS only matters in a few spots... and many of those are broken up and not continous...

For instance, Part 4 of the Shroud... Rebuffing is easy because you have a break between rounds (if you even go a second round). The 1.2 second to activate Haste Boost can be done right before Harry appears, DM can be reapplied easily..

And Part 4 where DPS matters most in the Shroud...

Part 5 is a more continous battle, so your objections apply there, but who cares if the fight takes 30 seconds longer? It's not as dangerous, because people can be raised.. Pools exist to get SP back...

VoD is another example where you get breaks to reapply buffs... There's not a lot of fights where you beat continously on a boss for 4 minutes straight...

All this worrying about reapplying 1 minute buffs or "wasting" 1.2 seconds on boosts seems pretty pointless to me...

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 10:57 AM

You guys do take min/maxing to the nth degree... and you seem to care a lot about paper/math results and not in-game results

We care a lot on ingame result as we play basically every build we post.
But yea, we are the optimizers, can't play an inferior character, as it is not fun for us.

All this worrying about reapplying 1 minute buffs or "wasting" 1.2 seconds on boosts seems pretty pointless to me...

Problem in your senarios is that part 4 is longer than 4 minutes each round, and far longer than 20. I usually use 3 boosts, whereas the last one only gets utalized for half the duration or so.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:03 AM

DM's casting time is not that long, and since it's a minute long buff, you won't lose DPS using it... (People have said that you lose DPS using the 20 second Damage Boosts, not DM)

It's very long. Way longer than 0.6 for a quickdrawed hasteboost.
Yeh, you are probably right, you don't lose DPS if you use it (rank III), but the gain is not as high as one may think.
Just because it haven't been a huge thread about it doesn't mean no one have said it.

Using Zeal and DF with madstone is possible, you just have to take off your boots when you have two minutes left on Zeal and DF... But you're right, it will be impossible to keep all 3 effects going 100% of the time...

It's still a noticeable DPS loss.

Against boring fights like Harry and Sulo, you can spam DS pretty reliably... You may only get 18 DS per minute instead of 20 because of rebuffs, but in the big boss fights, it's not hard to hit DS over and over and over.

However I agree, it can be very tedious, but it's pretty good damage...

Yea, so more lost DPS.

kingfisher

07-17-2009, 11:28 AM

It seems to me that ultimate DPS only matters in a few spots... and many of those are broken up and not continous...

and all of those are 100% fort, or will be soon. is there really even a need to calculate the dps vs trash or no fort mobs? i mean does it matter? trash dies fast.

sure theoretically its nice to say 'this build is max dps vs....' but the only one worth caring about is the one that matters right?

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:36 AM

You guys do take min/maxing to the nth degree... and you seem to care a lot about paper/math results and not in-game results

All this worrying about reapplying 1 minute buffs or "wasting" 1.2 seconds on boosts seems pretty pointless to me...

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

I try to get as accurate estimations of actual in game DPS potential as possible, while still keeping it simple.

but who cares if the fight takes 30 seconds longer?
I care:P

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:40 AM

Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

I try to get as accurate estimations of actual in game DPS potential as possible, while still keeping it simple.

I care:P

It's funny that a few of you are so dense. You build based on numbers that rarely actually happen in a quest or raid. Anyone can come up with numbers on paper, but few actually see those exact results.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:41 AM

No, if you care to read it he has planned a level in cha. -1 starting str +1 starting cha +1 str through levels = earn 1 build point with the same outcome on str and cha.

What are you going to do with that one point? There isn't anywhere to put it that has the same effect on the build.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:41 AM

It's funny that a few of you are so dense.

QFT
It's amazing that you still haven't realized that DPS calculations are about potential.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:45 AM

What are you going to do with that one point? There isn't anywhere to put it that has the same effect on the build.

Fail, learn how the stat system works, or think it through futher.

Instead of going:
Str: 30 (16 + 4 Tome + 4 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
Dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
Con: 20 (12 + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
Wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
Cha: 26 (14 + 3 Tome +1 Level +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

He can go:
str: 30 (15 + 4 Tome + 5 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
con: 22 (13 + 3 Tome + 6 Item)
int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
cha: 26 (15 + 3 Tome Level +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

A total of +1 con modifier for free.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:45 AM

QFT
It's amazing that you still haven't realized that DPS calculations are about potential.

No what's amazing Lyrach is that the potential for those DPS calculations are unreal. You're builds on paper may have a bit more DPS, but in an in game fight they lack that paper only sheik.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:47 AM

No what's amazing Lyrach is that the potential for those DPS calculations are unreal. You're builds on paper may have a bit more DPS, but in an in game fight they lack that paper only sheik.

Fail again.
The calculations are not here to show "you will deal X dps per minute", but rather you will deal Z% more than Y Class, showing you which build and which class deals the most of it.

The % difference between the classes will not alter in actual gameplay with a few exceptions.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:47 AM

Fail, learn how the stat system works, or think it through futher.

Instead of going:
Str: 30 (16 + 4 Tome + 4 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
Dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
Con: 20 (12 + 2 Tome + 6 Item)
Int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
Wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
Cha: 26 (14 + 3 Tome +1 Level +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

He can go:
str: 30 (15 + 4 Tome + 5 Levels + 6 Item) +2 Rage +2 Madstone Rage = 34
dex: 24 (15 + 2 Tome + 1 Enhancement + 6 Item)
con: 22 (13 + 3 Tome + 6 Item)
int: 10 (9 + 1 Tome)
wis: 18 (8 + 2 Tome + 2 Greensteel + 6 Item)
cha: 26 (15 + 3 Tome Level +6 Item +2 enhancements) DM III

A total of +1 con modifier for free.

You're planning on using +4 tomes that we don't even know exist yet. That kinda negates the effect of it all.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:47 AM

It's funny that a few of you are so dense. You build based on numbers that rarely actually happen in a quest or raid. Anyone can come up with numbers on paper, but few actually see those exact results.

Yes, you are really hilarious actually.

We calculate DPS potentials, it's not 100% accurate, but it's good enough to compare different builds.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:48 AM

You're planning on using +4 tomes that we don't even know exist yet. That kinda negates the effect of it all.

*Sigh*
Lame defense on an obvious fail.
Accept that you overlooked that he wasted one point. And besides, the only other tome I have added is a +3 tome, not a +4.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:48 AM

Yes, you are really hilarious actually.

We calculate DPS potentials, it's not 100% accurate, but it's good enough to compare different builds.

Not 100% accurate? DPS potentials? Seems that it's not that good of a build if it's only a potential and not a fact.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:49 AM

You're planning on using +4 tomes that we don't even know exist yet. That kinda negates the effect of it all.

Fail.
It was the OP who used the +4 tome, not AO.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:50 AM

*Sigh*
Lame defense on an obvious fail.
Accept that you overlooked that he wasted one point.

I accept the fact that I didn't notice that, I'm not the best. You still fail though, again you can't say that you're good to go cause you don't know if there's going to be +4 tomes.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:50 AM

Not 100% accurate? DPS potentials? Seems that it's not that good of a build if it's only a potential and not a fact.

1+1=2 that's a fact. If you fail to realize that then I can not help you. Now end this random clutter of your own fails. Most people have accepted that dps calculations are an accurate method to use to compare the classes.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:51 AM

Not 100% accurate? DPS potentials? Seems that it's not that good of a build if it's only a potential and not a fact.

Haha, so you are saying that only our builds have DPS potentials and are not calculated with 100% accuracy?

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:51 AM

Fail.
It was the OP who used the +4 tome, not AO.

I was talking to them both, thanks.

Would have been posted 7 seconds faster, sorry.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:51 AM

I accept the fact that I didn't notice that, I'm not the best. You still fail though, again you can't say that you're good to go cause you don't know if there's going to be +4 tomes.

Indeed. But recall, the OP added that tome, not I. I merely reworked the level up points and earned the OP 1 con point. Ending stats aside, do it like I did and one will earn 1 stat point at creation.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:52 AM

Haha, so you are saying that only our builds have DPS potentials and are not calculated with 100% accuracy?

Your words Yarg, not mine. How accurate are your DPS potential calculations?

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:53 AM

Indeed. But recall, the OP added that tome, not I. I merely reworked the level up points and earned the OP 1 con point. Ending stats aside, do it like I did and one will earn 1 stat point at creation.

I realize it was Val that started it, I can give him sh!t in game though. :p

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 11:54 AM

Your words Yarg, not mine. How accurate are your DPS potential calculations?

VS punchbags at 0% fort, 100% accurate with the exception that boosts takes 0.6-1.2 seconds to activate and that stuff like DM etc takes time to activate.

EDIT: Ofcourse the calcs we've made vs 50% fort for example are 100% accurate against 50% fort. With the exceptions of activation times.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:54 AM

Your words Yarg, not mine. How accurate are your DPS potential calculations?

Accurate enough to compare different builds. It's not like the calcs for our builds is less accurate than our calcs for others builds.

You might actually be the only one on the forums who don't think it's possible to compare 2 builds DPS using DPS calcs.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 11:57 AM

Accurate enough to comapre different builds. It's not like the calcs for our builds is less accurate than our calcs for others builds.

You might actually be the only one on the forums who don't/doesn't think it's possible to compare 2 builds DPS using DPS calcs.

Fixxed it for ya~

I think it's very possible to compare two DPS calcs to each other. I'd like a number from you on how accurate your calcs are.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 11:59 AM

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:01 PM

I think it's very possible to compare two DPS calcs to each other. I'd like a number from you on how accurate your calcs are.

Considering we both use the same calcs, you've been given an answer.

In actual gameplay they are perhaps 80% accurate (still with the same difference between the builds and classes, so the purpose is over 95% accurate) counting in that some mobs are immune to acid, slicing some have fort, etc.

Thrudh

07-17-2009, 12:02 PM

We care a lot on ingame result as we play basically every build we post.

That's my point... The in-game results do not match the math...

Problem in your senarios is that part 4 is longer than 4 minutes each round, and far longer than 20. I usually use 3 boosts, whereas the last one only gets utalized for half the duration or so.

Each round in Part 4 (where harry is there) is about 1:10... and then you get a break...

Very easy to have Zeal, DF, DM, and be double-madstoned while fighting him... Take the boots off as soon they proc (I switch to firestorm greaves)... Then you get a break, and reapply all buffs before the next round with Harry...

VoD also gives you breaks when the big guy jumps to the pillar... In-game results differ from the straight math... There are very few situations in this game where we continously beat on a mob for more than a minute or two...

Minimizing the impact of activating a 20 second boost makes sense.. Worrying about a 4+ minute Zeal and DF wearing off does not... Even the minute-long DM is barely an issue...

kingfisher

07-17-2009, 12:02 PM

It's funny that a few of you are so dense. You build based on numbers that rarely actually happen in a quest or raid. Anyone can come up with numbers on paper, but few actually see those exact results.

truth! theory is for acadmeics, and matters very little in-game. potential is nice, but means nothing until its realized. ask ryan leaf or delmon young.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:02 PM

The number a DPS calc show is not very important in it self, it's the difference between builds and classes that is important.
If a calc shows that X build deals 30% more DPS than Y build, then the result in game will be very similar.

I understand that, that is the difference between two builds that is the important part. My question was more out of being curios than anything else; What is the error margine for your DPS calcs.

EDIT: nvm Lyrach already explained it.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:04 PM

Considering we both use the same calcs, you've been given an answer.

In actual gameplay they are perhaps 80% accurate (still with the same difference between the builds and classes, so the purpose is over 95% accurate) counting in that some mobs are immune to acid, slicing some have fort, etc.

So in that case, talking actual game play and calcs here, two people must then do calcs for the same mob; ie, you can't do a calc vs harry and Val do a calc against a CR 2 kobald.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:05 PM

Each round in Part 4 (where harry is there) is about 1:10... and then you get a break...

Very easy to have Zeal, DF, DM, and be double-madstoned while fighting him... Take the boots off as soon they proc (I switch to firestorm greaves)... Then you get a break, and reapply all buffs before the next round with Harry...

VoD also gives you breaks when the big guy jumps to the pillar... In-game results differ from the straight math... There are very few situations in this game where we continously beat on a mob for more than a minute or two...

Minimizing the impact of activating a 20 second boost makes sense.. Worrying about a 4+ minute Zeal and DF wearing off does not... Even the minute-long DM is barely an issue...

While you speak the truth. Know that in vod for example you do more than just fight suulo, for example second orthron wave + smack suulo after is over 2 minutes, up to 4-5 in a bad group.

I agree, one doesn't really have to worry about zeal etc, it's just a hassle. But that's also why we've counted all those things 100% in our calcs, even though it's not 100% accurate in some places.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 12:06 PM

I understand that, that is the difference between two builds that is the important part. My question was more out of being curios than anything else; What is the error margine for your DPS calcs.

As I use the same way to calculate different build the error margine is irrelevant.

Thrudh

07-17-2009, 12:07 PM

Fail again.
The calculations are not here to show "you will deal X dps per minute", but rather you will deal Z% more than Y Class, showing you which build and which class deals the most of it.

The % difference between the classes will not alter in actual gameplay with a few exceptions.

I believe that's incorrect... You can only say X class deals Z% more DPS than Y class only in perfect situations... usually in continous beat-down mode with zero fort... which doesn't happen that often...

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:08 PM

So in that case, talking actual game play and calcs here, two people must then do calcs for the same mob; ie, you can't do a calc vs harry and Val do a calc against a CR 2 kobald.

Agreed, but from what I've seen the calcs posted have been made vs kobolds all along.
So in the end the % difference between the builds would remain the same, or alter very little. Whilst the actual dps will drop as you fight harder mobs.

From time to time depending on the argument we sometimes post calcs specifically made for Arraetrikos, eg immunity to acid, 50% fort etc.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:09 PM

As I use the same way to calculate different build the error margine is irrelevant.

They're not biased? Not even one little bit?

Thrudh

07-17-2009, 12:09 PM

We calculate DPS potentials, it's not 100% accurate, but it's good enough to compare different builds.

This is probably true, but you guys don't need to be so strident about it... 5% less DPS on paper doesn't necessarily mean Build Y is **** compared to Build X...

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:10 PM

Agreed, but from what I've seen the calcs posted have been made vs kobolds all along.
So in the end the % difference between the builds would remain the same, or alter very little. Whilst the actual dps will drop as you fight harder mobs.

From time to time depending on the argument we sometimes post calcs specifically made for Arraetrikos, eg immunity to acid, 50% fort etc.

Yeah, most of us do calcs vs that perfect mob, the one with no immunites and fort...attacking someone else for SA damage, lol.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:11 PM

This is probably true, but you guys don't need to be so strident about it... 5% less DPS on paper doesn't necessarily mean Build Y is **** compared to Build X...

There needs to be a foot note at the end of every DPS calc saying: "In regards to on paper only." ...or something like that.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 12:11 PM

So in that case, talking actual game play and calcs here, two people must then do calcs for the same mob; ie, you can't do a calc vs harry and Val do a calc against a CR 2 kobald.

You don't have to do a calc for a specific mob to get a good estimation of a builds DPS. You don't have to do it to compare different builds either.

But if you do a calc for a specific mob you get more accurate results. Pretty time consuming to do a calc for every single mob in endgame only to compare two builds.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:12 PM

This is probably true, but you guys don't need to be so strident about it... 5% less DPS on paper doesn't necessarily mean Build Y is **** compared to Build X......

Counting that both builds can miss as much and move too far / too little in situations counting vs moving targets / punchbags are usually the same.

A lot of 50% fort calcs are being made these days and we're doing some of em, and those are more accurate to actual raid boss gameplay, one really has to compare 50% fort to 50% fort and look how it is there, and then there might be some very small differences with boosts etc.

Well, yes and no.
If barb for example is 20% behind most other melee classes, I can with fair accuracy say that they are ****.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 12:13 PM

They're not biased? Not even one little bit?

Yes, slightly. But unless you want me to give you an error margine for every single build it's still irrelevant.

Thrudh

07-17-2009, 12:14 PM

Yeah, SA calculations especially is hard to transfer from paper to the real game... Aggro management makes a real difference in actual gameplay.

gfunk

07-17-2009, 12:15 PM

It's funny that a few of you are so dense. You build based on numbers that rarely actually happen in a quest or raid. Anyone can come up with numbers on paper, but few actually see those exact results.

people come up with those numbers because it shows the maximum that the build will achieve. If you do the max for all the builds, then it should be a good way to compare them.

Obviously, it would be nice to include examples at various buff levels, vs. different AC's, with different weapons, with and without SA, over different lengths of times...

But then it becomes too much to post (or for people to read!). Hopefully, people can mentally interpolate for some of those different scenarios.

And +4 tomes do exist. They were pulled during the last Christmas event (As were unbound +3's)... not that its a big deal, as long as everyone uses either +3's or +4's in their calcs.

Anyways, this build looks pretty good. The dps will be very good, and its nice to see builds that aren't monk or ranger splashed!

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:15 PM

You don't have to do a calc for a specific mob to get a good estimation of a builds DPS. You don't have to do it to compare different builds either.

But if you do a calc for a specific mob you get more accurate results. Pretty time consuming to do a calc for every single mob in endgame only to compare two builds.

I agree, it would be wise for you to do calcs as a general thing than compaired to each and every mob. The kobald referance was more of a joke than anything else. It was a target that has nothing that would prevent it from stoping some damage.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:15 PM

Yeah, SA calculations especially is hard to transfer from paper to the real game... Aggro management makes a real difference in actual gameplay.

True, but usually not on raid bosses. The SA counted for those are often 90% accurate.

Yargore

07-17-2009, 12:15 PM

This is probably true, but you guys don't need to be so strident about it... 5% less DPS on paper doesn't necessarily mean Build Y is **** compared to Build X...

5% less DPS on paper usually means that the build got ~5% less DPS in game.
If the build is **** compared to the other is an opinion.

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:17 PM

It was a target that has nothing that would prevent it from stoping some damage.

Except their amazing tumbling skills! :P

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:17 PM

people come up with those numbers because it shows the maximum that the build will achieve. If you do the max for all the builds, then it should be a good way to compare them.

Obviously, it would be nice to include examples at various buff levels, vs. different AC's, with different weapons, with and without SA, over different lengths of times...

But then it becomes too much to post (or for people to read!). Hopefully, people can mentally interpolate for some of those different scenarios.

And +4 tomes do exist. They were pulled during the last Christmas event (As were unbound +3's)... not that its a big deal, as long as everyone uses either +3's or +4's in their calcs.

Anyways, this build looks pretty good. The dps will be very good, and its nice to see builds that aren't monk or ranger splashed!

I mean that you can't plan for a +4 tome, are you telling me you're going to pull a +4 tome from the jester this coming Christmas?

I agree it would be cool if several calcs were done to sshow DPS against different factors, etc.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:18 PM

Except their amazing tumbling skills! :P

Oh! You're forgetting their awesome "I'm going to keep jumping back, and if I can't jump back any more, I'll jump to the side/over you!" trick too. ;)

Absolute-Omniscience

07-17-2009, 12:18 PM

I agree it would be cool if several calcs were done to sshow DPS against different factors, etc.

Yea, would be nice if one could be bothered to post em all. I make some "special" calcs from time to time, but don't really post em as each calc takes ~10 minutes to post and ~5 minutes to do, so...

Yargore

07-17-2009, 12:20 PM

I agree, it would be wise for you to do calcs as a general thing than compaired to each and every mob. The kobald referance was more of a joke than anything else. It was a target that has nothing that would prevent it from stoping some damage.

I agree, and now I'm gonna stop spamming this thread:p

gfunk

07-17-2009, 12:23 PM

Yeah, SA calculations especially is hard to transfer from paper to the real game... Aggro management makes a real difference in actual gameplay.

SA doesn't transfer that badly. The sneak attack tends to be accurate vs. red and purple names, as you have alot of people ganging up on them. In other places you can often get away with using radience (if you use rapiers you are 80% likely to have blinded a foe by your 4th hit, with khopeshes you are 80% likely to have blinded them by your 7th hit).

without radience, sneak attack is of much less certaintly vs. trash.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 12:25 PM

Yea, would be nice if one could be bothered to post em all. I make some "special" calcs from time to time, but don't really post em as each calc takes ~10 minutes to post and ~5 minutes to do, so...

It would be very cool if there was some program one could plug the info into and then info about the mob and get a calc.

I agree, and now I'm gonna stop spamming this thread:p

What? No you can't! What will I do at "work"?:eek:

gfunk

07-17-2009, 12:54 PM

I mean that you can't plan for a +4 tome, are you telling me you're going to pull a +4 tome from the jester this coming Christmas? .

It seemed to me (and many other people I talked to) that the +4 tomes at Christmas were a prelude to what would be offered in mod 9. I felt that the dev's were sorta hinting at that.

Some people don't even like +2 or +3 tomes included in builds (however most power-gamer types will eventually get them if they play long enough, so its nice to consider the dps that you are ultimately striving for).

The actual difference in dps with the different tomes is actually very small, and becomes less of a factor as overall damage bonuses go up (i.e. when you are talking about +50 to damage, an extra +1 doesn't make much difference).

In the thread about dps I was working on (here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906)), I started off with +3 tomes but changed them to +4's later (though often it put builds at odd numbers). some people wanted tharnes included, others didnt. Some thought it was good to put in weapons, and others wanted to see it without. Some people didn't like considering that you could always hit on a 2. Some people complained that there shouldn't be math because they didn't want that sort of thing cluttering up their forum....

You just can't please everyone with this sort of thing. Personally, I try for consistancy and try to be as un-biased about things as possible. Anyways, here is what I get for punisher and monster. I didn't include smites (because I hate doing smite calcs for some reason), and I didn't include averaged effects of haste boost over different time intervals. dps is similar (though I may have missed some small details). Smiting will help the punisher. Less dependance on SA will help the monster. Either would be great.

http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/tt297/cratonic/comparison2.jpg

Riorik

07-17-2009, 02:46 PM

This is getting a bit silly. Time to move on?

I would like to bring up a relevant point from the earlier pages. No, I don't want to argue anything like "potential DPS on paper that never gets seen in game". I just can't see anything productive from that argument.

I do think there's a difference between 'always on' effects versus those that have durations...and there's a difference when you rely upon a series of clickable duration based effects. I think it's obvious that the more you have to do at the same time, the more likely you are to stumble.

Was going to ramble about my actual gameplay...cause I'm sure you've seen the same thing. How many of you get "lazy" while fighting? Why bother doing a 10 clicky series to setup to kill a single Ogre Magi that ends up lasting less than 2 seconds, total unless you're just playing around looking for one of those "you critical'd your target for 5000 HP" quotes.

Just like most character builds tend to often quote at least three levels for things like HP, AC, Saves...the "unbuffed", "selfbuffed", "raidbuffed" levels, why shouldn't DPS builds do the same thing?

I'm not sure what to use. Perhaps the standard should be something like "no clickies" then "one clickie" then "all of it"...with the expectation that it's often very easy for a melee build to click one thing (like haste boost) during the run up approach (or Kensai Surge mod9), but maybe not so realistic to expect them to always bother with rage and haste and surge and frenzy except in those isolated 'big fights'.

Comfortably

07-17-2009, 04:40 PM

Valezra

07-17-2009, 05:13 PM

Here are some problems with your DPS:
You have to recast DM every minute, and it's a very long casting time on it. Many people argue that you actually lose DPS if you cast it.
You have to recast zeal and DF every 3-4 minute, it means that you can't have madstone boots all the time.
You don't have quickdraw so your haste boosts take 1.2 sec to activate.
You also count 1 DS every 3 sec, if you would have played a paladin you would know that keeping yourself buffed and getting a DS off every 3 second isn't that realistic. It's also very tedious.

While assuming all those things you say that keeping PS up for 5 minutes is "highly unrealistic". Consistency FTW! :rolleyes:

And you only have one rank of subtle backstabbing, so if your DPS is as high as you claim it to be you will gain aggro more often than not. Thus losing your SA.

You wanted total potential DPS. That is it. If you want to count my cast times and haste boost activation then you have to take into account the activation per the 15 or so clickies you are using to get your numbers which you don't. I figured once I posted higher DPS values than the monster you would latch on to some argument do discredit them.

Besides, 510 DPS is 18 DPS higher than the Monster so even recasting 2 spells isn't going to account for an 18 DPS loss. The burst DPS is 63 DPS higher than the Monster and is not effected by casting time since you can safely assume that I would have cast the spells prior to combat.

Face it... you guys wanted to use the idea of total potential dps ignoring clickie/cast time and that is what I did. Using maximum potential dps calculations against the "perfect mob" the Punisher is higher. It can also burst DPS higher. In our little perfect world we have created the Punisher puts out more damage period. In the real game there will be times when the Punisher does more than the Monster and vice versa.

As far as pulling aggro I am hoping people start rolling up more tanks based on hate. My hatetank build in mod 9 can generate a very realistic 600+ DPS threat even assuming aggro and no madstone. Neither of our builds will pull anything off of that kind of threat generation. A fighter tank could easily be built to generate those same or higher threat values.

BTW - I completely agree with the starting stat spread. I will revise it when I get a chance. Thank you for the insight.

Val

Valezra

07-17-2009, 06:00 PM

There needs to be a foot note at the end of every DPS calc saying: "In regards to on paper only." ...or something like that.

Agreed, a lot of discussion occurred while I was gone regarding accuracy. I don't pretend that my numbers are realistic but most of the problems we have had in this thread has stemmed from comparing numbers using different assumptions and arguing about which assumptions are more realistic or not.

Yargor, AO and others chose to represent their DPS in terms of maximum potential "on-paper" DPS. Instead of arguing with their assumptions it is easier to just use the same assumptions and then compare. It's a fair argument. That is why I changed the Punishers DPS values to better reflect that "on-paper" value for comparison only. I expect in game to be happy when I can hit 75% to 80% of my on-paper DPS.

For folks who are avid builders we should probably start another thread and discuss what should be used in Mod 9 when calculating DPS for comparison to avoid this whole ugly thing in future threads.

I found one mistake with my new DPS calcs BTW and will be changing them... it should result in only 1-3 DPS less than what I posted. But otherwise, I think the numbers are good for comparison purposes.

Val