Red Names Again

[joker965]

I know this has been done 100 times but I need to put out a suggested change to the blanket immunities for RED NAMES.

So I was really thinking about this when we were fighting the Demon Queen in the last part.

I'm totally fine with her being immune to almost any special attack possible but it is just a DM cheat in my opinion to make all of the those silly gnolls immune to everything just by making their names RED. I'm not really speaking about this battle specifically but was just the one that got me thinking about it.

Could we please try some other way to do this? I'm not sure what the exact answer is but illogical immunities are not it.

Examples:

1. It should be at least possible to trip any humanoid type creature. Possibly they need to roll a 1 for a save and they get back up in 2 seconds but it should not be impossible.

2. It should be possible to stun any mortal creature. undead, demons, constructs, dragons, fine... Make it only on a 1 again and last only 50% as long.

I'm not saying that death magic should ever work. Any 8th level dork could have a deathblock item.

Doesn't anybody think it is silly that we end up killing the "Demon" Queen with massive fire damage half of the time?

Thoughts?

[Zenako]

sidebar: any sort of competent archer(s) can take out those gnolls quickly, so they are seldom a problem.

As for Red name immunities, they are there simply to avoid the "easy win" occurance for those quests where they appear. Given the d20 nature of the game, the minimum normal chance for anything is going to be 5%. Now if you could IK a red name, even on 1's, how long really would it take to get that 5% result. About as long as it takes a typical vorpal to land, i.e. not long. Not good.

It can be frustrating to not be able to use your normal preprogrammed modes of attack on a red name, but they are ways around that in almost all cases.

[Jendrak]

/agreed

I have said all along that these blanket immunities are the result of a someone beign lazy.

If you wanna beef up saves, give special gear (deathblock), etc... to make the fight more enjoyable thats fine. These are the things that a good DM does to keep his group interested.

But things like blanket immunities (the DDO equivelent of "because i said do"), fire eles casting protection form cold (not a really big deal but still wrong), massive DR vs. EVERYTHING (no point if it has a milllion hp) and a few other things need to be changed.

I like the beefed up skillz that the OP sugested, would go to maybe if they roll a 1 or we roll a 19-20.

[Hobgoblin]

only problem i see with this is stat damagers. take 2-3 rounds beating down the pit fiend or 1 round removing his con? hmm nevermind i dont see a prob with this

hob

[Jendrak]

only problem i see with this is stat damagers. take 2-3 rounds beating down the pit fiend or 1 round removing his con? hmm nevermind i dont see a prob with this

hob

Some immunities should still be there to keep the named fights fun agreed, but what i think the OP was talking about is the things like trip, slow, ya know.

No one is talking about being able to FoD or WoP a red named. This would kill the game IMO. But being able to trip it for a few seconds (for example) to kinda give a break, if it hits, would just be another tatic to use.

[joker965]

Some immunities should still be there to keep the named fights fun agreed, but what i think the OP was talking about is the things like trip, slow, ya know.

No one is talking about being able to FoD or WoP a red named. This would kill the game IMO. But being able to trip it for a few seconds (for example) to kinda give a break, if it hits, would just be another tatic to use.

This is exactly what I'm saying.

[Pathwalker]

One option is to give red names resistances rather then immunities. Examples:

Trip Boss becomes off balance, -4 to attack, AC, and reflex saves.

Insta Kills Failed save instead does massive damage (disintegrate and a half maybe), unless also protected by Death Ward like effect. Instakill weapons do extra damage as well. Vorpal or Disrupting a red named won't kill, but it'll still hurt.

Charm Boss looses 1 out of every 20 actions and just stands there as they fight the charm effects.

Stat Damage Limit most stat damage and have it heal over time. So if a couple of characters kept swinging Weakeners or Enfeeblers, enemy could be kept at half Str or Dex. Con damage to red names would instead do 2 * Enemy HD * Con Damage in HP damage and reduction in max HP.

Negative Levels Allow a couple negative levels on any boss that doesn't have Deathward, and have 'em wear out over time similiar to play death penalties.

Slow Slows boss down by 5 or 10%.

[smatt]

I'm all for it as long as they get the same or level appropriate abilites as well.... Uh oh the room was just spammed with 300pt crit FW's... Ouch that BB is a crit doing 475 a nick.....:eek: So and so's Cone of cold jsut hit you for 1071 points of damage... Ooooohg so and so's polar ray just hit you for 730 points of damage... :eek:

[jhorn02]

As far as stat damagers go. who's to say that a red named (or one of their minions) wouldn't be able cast a full restore. It would make fights more strategic and realistic if a boss could sustain stat damage, but could have it restored in the same way that shamans heal hp damage to their comrades.

Of course, if we're going to level the playing field, players should expect a lvl 20 red named to be carrying weapons similar to our own (cursespewing, wounding, etc.). Actually, those types of damage effects would create a demand for a wider variety of restoration spells to have a use (I mean noone carries Remove Curse since pots areavailable, but if you were getting cursed several times per run or getting poisoned in most fights...you have to plan ahead a bit more.)

[vtecfiend99]

I'm all for it as long as they get the same or level appropriate abilites as well.... Uh oh the room was just spammed with 300pt crit FW's... Ouch that BB is a crit doing 475 a nick.....:eek: So and so's Cone of cold jsut hit you for 1071 points of damage... Ooooohg so and so's polar ray just hit you for 730 points of damage... :eek:

wouldnt it be awesome if there were red names equipped just like a completely geared out power gamer? Talk about a tough fight...

[Roman]

We are way too well equiped for red names to not have blanket immunities. A well equiped group can take down Harry in a single round. And one WF melee can go toe to toe with Sally with just 1 caster tossing reconstruct.

[vtecfiend99]

We are way too well equiped for red names to not have blanket immunities. A well equiped group can take down Harry in a single round. And one WF melee can go toe to toe with Sally with just 1 caster tossing reconstruct.

yep. Ifhtey removed blanket immunities, they would have to make the red names so powerful that people would be here whining about THAT.

[joker965]

yep. Ifhtey removed blanket immunities, they would have to make the red names so powerful that people would be here whining about THAT.

But it would be better. Make them as powerful as you want just take away the stupid.

[Zenako]

But it would be better. Make them as powerful as you want just take away the stupid.

While it may not be as "stupid" to have the red names really be able to utilize the whole game system to their advantage, do you really think it would be better for pretty much no group to be able to defeat those bosses. You would also be asking for a ton of recoding on Mob behavior and who knows how well that would turn out. So instead of Harry just popping off some often ineffectual DBF's (depending on his targets), have him toss off appropriate level scorching rays for example. Let those mini bosses in devils nail you with Max/Emp Searing Lights for 300+ points a pop. Since currently mobs have no spell point pool to deplete, there would be nothing to work against them just piling on every meta you could justify, enlarge, heighten, quicken, maximize, empower (just like some wizards can do). Not going to be a pretty sight.

The current way allows much of the other game balance to remain much as it is, and it does force some to come up with alternative tactics. In PnP D&D quite a few main monsters are actually defined as immune to certain types of attacks, so it is not unprecedented in that respect.