Fighter Capstone: Weapon Alacrity

[Eladrin]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.

Fighters are the most versatile of our martial classes, and in Module Nine we've given them ways to express themselves as the master of a single weapon style through the Kensai, or a defensive bulwark that protects the party as a Stalwart Defender. Their capstone is tied to the thought that while a paladin has their faith and a ranger is tied to the wild, mastery of weapons is what fighters strive for.

Fighter Weapon (http://i620.photobucket.com/albums/tt283/itsapuzzle/01101010.jpg?t=1243551705) Alacrity
Prereqs: Fighter level 20
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your mastery with all weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal. Grants a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with all combat styles.

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to match your attack speed with two weapons), and the Thief-Acrobat or Monk may wield a staff with greater speed, they all fall apart when forced from their specialized combat styles. Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.

[WeiQuinn]

First! (my first first!)

Just kidding... since this was posted yesterday, I'm surprized no one has posted here as of yet.

Well, this will certainly benefit my Bastard Sword Kensai. Does competence bonus stack with haste? Is there anything it won't stack with (probably another competence bonus)?

[Taelan]

So this is really not a bad capstone for the fighters. I do like it.

But, (you knew there was going to be a but, didn't ya?) why an alacrity bonus? Unless I am mistaken, alacrity bonuses do not stack with haste so this gets wasted every time I step into a fight with haste. Also the other combat speed bonus capstone, the ranger's Master of Archery, is a competence bonus. Which does stack with haste unless I am mistaken.

Was this just overlooked and one of the capstones will be changed? Or are your true feelings about rangers showing through? ;)

[Mhykke]

Interesting. I'm a little surprised.

[ArkoHighStar]

just got released I bet

[Mhykke]

So this is really not a bad capstone for the fighters. I do like it.

But, (you knew there was going to be a but, didn't ya?) why an alacrity bonus? Unless I am mistaken, alacrity bonuses do not stack with haste so this gets wasted every time I step into a fight with haste. Also the other combat speed bonus capstone, the ranger's Master of Archery, is a competence bonus. Which does stack with haste unless I am mistaken.

Was this just overlooked and one of the capstones will be changed? Or are your true feelings about rangers showing through/ ;)

It's a competence bonus, it's in the description. It's just called alacrity.

[ArkoHighStar]

So this is really not a bad capstone for the fighters. I do like it.

But, (you knew there was going to be a but, didn't ya?) why an alacrity bonus? Unless I am mistaken, alacrity bonuses do not stack with haste so this gets wasted every time I step into a fight with haste. Also the other combat speed bonus capstone, the ranger's Master of Archery, is a competence bonus. Which does stack with haste unless I am mistaken.

Was this just overlooked and one of the capstones will be changed? Or are your true feelings about rangers showing through/ ;)

it is a competance bonus which should stack with haste

[Quanefel]

Not a bad capstone. :D

[Impaqt]

So this is really not a bad capstone for the fighters. I do like it.

But, (you knew there was going to be a but, didn't ya?) why an alacrity bonus? Unless I am mistaken, alacrity bonuses do not stack with haste so this gets wasted every time I step into a fight with haste. Also the other combat speed bonus capstone, the ranger's Master of Archery, is a competence bonus. Which does stack with haste unless I am mistaken.

Was this just overlooked and one of the capstones will be changed? Or are your true feelings about rangers showing through/ ;)

Aclarity is not a bonus type.

COmpetence is the TYpe. THis will indeed stack with Haste which is an enhancment bonus I believe.

[ArkoHighStar]

Now is tempest capped at 10% as well, if so this makes a straight twf fighter kensai a fair match for splashing tempest at the new end game

[Vorn]

Nice one. My namesake character is very happy!
:)

[maddmatt70]

A little on the overpowered side again, but hey since fighters are underpowered it gives offensive fighters some viability. Level 20 fighter is far better then level 19 fighter which shouldn't be the case. I am not in favor of such a powerful capstone but rather a huge influx of solid feats to improve fighters..

Since bow strength isn't coming out this mod for fighters there is still no way to make a a solid ranged fighter. They can't compete with the rangers and their two weapon fighting and ranged capabilities for diversity either even with bow strength by the way unless you are talking about being able to shield up slightly better then rangers.

Hahahahahaha on a personal note Norg as one of the few pure offensive fighters left in all of ddo will be able to stand up to rangers and barbarians like he always should have especially if they add a few feats like superior weapon specialization to feat options. One final note, at least pure fighters do more dps then 6 ranger/12 fighter characters..

[Taelan]

Boy, do I feel stupid. :) Read it quickly and must of skipped right over the type. So, then, yeah, I am very happy with this.

[Cold_Stele]

Hahahahahaha on a personal note Norg as one of the few pure offensive fighters left in all of ddo will be able to stand up to rangers and barbarians like he always should have especially if they add a few feats like superior weapon specialization to feat options. One final note, at least pure fighters do more dps then 6 ranger/12 fighter characters..

Thanks Eladrin, you made Stele (DDO's other pure Ftr) very happy :)

[Hafeal]

Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.

Interesting, so shield bashing gets a little boost as well ... a small bone to sword & board? Too bad you have to be 20th to get it, but it is better than nothing.

[Pwesiela]

Anyone else not see this in the Dev Tracker?

Other than that, not bad.



Edit: oh, there it is, buried under everything else.

[Moonblood]

"Norg as one of the few pure offensive fighters left in all of ddo "

I have 4 of them.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I dig it tho...will it stack with jorgundals collar, i don't remember the collars detail.


I still want more for my beloved Class... and think they deserve more...

[xberto]

I like it.

[Cold_Stele]

I dig it tho...will it stack with jorgundals collar, i don't remember the collars detail.

Jorgundal's is enhancement, the same as Haste, so yes it will stack with this, which is Competence.

[Galacticus]

now change the capstone on rangers for the melee too and we'll love you again. I promise


:D

[xberto]

Interesting. I'm a little surprised.
I thought you would be.

[Aspenor]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.

Fighters are the most versatile of our martial classes, and in Module Nine we've given them ways to express themselves as the master of a single weapon style through the Kensai, or a defensive bulwark that protects the party as a Stalwart Defender. Their capstone is tied to the thought that while a paladin has their faith and a ranger is tied to the wild, mastery of weapons is what fighters strive for.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Prereqs: Fighter level 20
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your mastery with all weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal. Grants a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with all combat styles.

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to be an equal with you with two weapons), and the Thief-Acrobat or Monk may wield a staff with greater speed, they all fall apart when forced from their specialized combat styles. Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.

oooooo 10%....i was off by 5%. Do I get a cookie?

[Aspenor]

Interesting. I'm a little surprised.

I can't say I am. I win @ the internetz!

[Jesen]

Nice.

[Cold_Stele]

Am I the only person who can't see this thread on the forum home page whenever it gets updated?

[Angelus_dead]

Am I the only person who can't see this thread on the forum home page whenever it gets updated?
The new Official Discussion forum isn't in the list for the front page updates.

[Cold_Stele]

Aw, well how the Rangers all going to get to see this then? :D

[DasLurch]

This is a welcome capstone in my way of thinking. I would have preferred it to be a tad more (like say 15%), but all in all one of the best ones I've seen for melee types that has been announced. Now about that Rogue capstone....

[moorewr]

This is a welcome capstone in my way of thinking. I would have preferred it to be a tad more (like say 15%), but all in all one of the best ones I've seen for melee types that has been announced. Now about that Rogue capstone....

10% is plenty.. Tempest is 10% for TWF, and look how much people will do to get Tempest in their build. OR for a klondike bar...

[SteeleTrueheart]

Rangers will still be better are TWF and Ranged since thier capstone gives ranged alacrity of 25% and their PrC gives them this 10% bonus for TWF AND Superior TWF feat for free. Level 20 Fighters will have to be able to select STWF as a feat to be able to equal a Level 18 Ranger in weapon speed/number of attacks.

[Cold_Stele]

Definitely.

Whilst I doubt they'll be able to select STWF, there should be Superior Wpn Focus in there.

That, coupled with the +1 crit threat range from Kensai III and +8 Str from Kensai II will mean that Ftrs will at least be back in the running with Barbs and Rgrs, even if not at the top of the pack.

[bobbryan2]

10% is plenty.. Tempest is 10% for TWF, and look how much people will do to get Tempest in their build. OR for a klondike bar...

10% is the lower end of appropriate, and I think it's acceptable.

10% is given to Tempest... but remember that most tempests also have evasion. Paladins get their 10%, but only for short spurts... and still have evasion as an option. If you forgo evasion, you could get 10% from tempest and 10% from paladin.

You could make the case that since a fighter is giving up evasion, a 15% attack speed bonus might not be out of the question. I think 20 is a tad high, and a suitable bonus for that specific multiclass, but 15 wouldn't be terrible.

[Ryss]

I am the only one who disliked this capstone? This one and the ranger one are in the same boat if you ask me: the boat that "forces" you to be pure class.

This madness has to stop.

[Borror0]

Well, I had guessed that one right.

Sadly, +10% is way too much for one level (more so if they add Superior Weapon Specialization). +5% would have been more reasonable.

EDIT: Still thinking about it. Might change my mind.

[moorewr]

10% is the lower end of appropriate, and I think it's acceptable.

10% is given to Tempest... but remember that most tempests also have evasion. Paladins get their 10%, but only for short spurts... and still have evasion as an option. If you forgo evasion, you could get 10% from tempest and 10% from paladin.

You could make the case that since a fighter is giving up evasion, a 15% attack speed bonus might not be out of the question. I think 20 is a tad high, and a suitable bonus for that specific multiclass, but 15 wouldn't be terrible.

Hmm.. pure 20th level Kensai III TWFer v. Tempest:

Tempest: 10% speed increase, evasion, spells
Kensai III: 10% speed increase, bonus feats, crit range

..which shows that this is an acceptable capstone -> I am torn between the benefits of 20f and 18f/2r. Now, admittedly, this leaves my 15f/1bard out in the cold, but he'll still be an effective character with 18 or 19 levels of fighter and the Stalwart Defender PrE.

[QuantumFX]

10% is the lower end of appropriate, and I think it's acceptable.

10% is given to Tempest... but remember that most tempests also have evasion. Paladins get their 10%, but only for short spurts... and still have evasion as an option. If you forgo evasion, you could get 10% from tempest and 10% from paladin.

You could make the case that since a fighter is giving up evasion, a 15% attack speed bonus might not be out of the question. I think 20 is a tad high, and a suitable bonus for that specific multiclass, but 15 wouldn't be terrible.

10% is perfect. Tempest I/Kensai II is now less tempting over Kensai III/Fighter Capstone. Also neither Rangers or Paladins get access to Haste Boost. A pure fighter is now capable of getting the best parts of Tempest I, Crit Rage I and Kensai II.

[Deathseeker]

I think this is a pretty decent capstone. It's now a very interesting choice vs monk splash or rogue splash. And that's how it should be. Also puts the full Kensai back in the dps running. Maybe not at the top, but at least back within sight a little.

This makes the ranger capstone mess slightly better. Now you have a choice of 25% from the ranger bonus or 10% from the fighter bonus, along with the Kensai benefits vs the Ranger/Sniper/AA benefits. This is of course not until mod 10 when the fighter can get the bow strength option. Of course that still doesnt get us there because now we might have 2 classes that can play ranged, both pure, and no fun trying to multiclass a ranged build, and has to wait for mod 10.

But as far as a fighter goes, I think this is a good choice all things considered. Are there maybe alternatives (like a smaller bonus at capstone but something lower level for the fighter as well), sure. But the game is definitely much better with this capstone than without it.

So, let's just fix that rogue and ranger capstone, and we can have a very wonderful mod 9!

[Deathseeker]

Oh, and by the way, thank you Eladrin! These previews have been a forum highlight of the weeks for the last few months, and have been a great way to slowly ramp up for mod 9!

Also love the fact we got it a little early this week!

Can you let us know if we should expect more weekly updates from you, such as on enhancements, feats, spell specifics, etc? Beyond Kate's letter of course?

[Gunga]

But rangers get 25%. Waa.

:rolleyes:


Nice Cap. I'd love to rock this with a Half Orc, but, well, you know...

[Borror0]

So, let's just fix that rogue and ranger capstone, and we can have a very wonderful mod 9!
You forgot the cleric capstone, who is as underwhelming.

Upon further thoughts, this capstone is fine as Tempest I is, when you look at it. The problem with Tempest is that the two extremities should be weakened in order to boost Tempest II (so that might affect this capstone at the same moment). I'll have to run the numbers to see what would be decent suggestions but all in all it might not be that bad.

As you've said, though, the two most obvious fixes are the rogue and ranger capstone.

If Eladrin is sure to keep Master of Archer, then I'd suggest he drops the bonus to 12.5-15%. That would bring balance in a EO module like M9 seems to be and the later addition of AA/Sniper will restore balance whenever we are not in a module where 85%+ of mobs do not share the same creature type.

[Sydril]

this capstone it beautiful, and utilitarian. I wish all the capstones had this kind of simplistic positive effect.

[Deathseeker]

You forgot the cleric capstone, who is as underwhelming.

Upon further thoughts, this capstone is fine as Tempest I is, when you look at it. The problem with Tempest is that the two extremities should be weakened in order to boost Tempest II (so that might affect this capstone at the same moment). I'll have to run the numbers to see what would be decent suggestions but all in all it might not be that bad.

As you've said, though, the two most obvious fixes are the rogue and ranger capstone.

If Eladrin is sure to keep Master of Archer, then I'd suggest he drops the bonus to 12.5-15%. That would bring balance in a EO module like M9 seems to be and the later addition of AA/Sniper will restore balance whenever we are not in a module where 85%+ of mobs do not share the same creature type.

Regarding the Cleric capstone I only left it out on the off chance that certain quests in mod 9 may lend themselves heavily to this being a huge benefit. I think content may drive whether that capstone has any value in the end. Might be wishful thinking. But that's for another thread...

The more I think about it, the more I like this capstone. A pure defender can now get a dps boost but sacrifice some of the splash benefits. Same with a Kensai. When looking at fighter in a vacuum, I think the relationship between capstone and splash (up to 6 levels) options works fairly well.

I'd love to see a pure fighter ranged build with power attack applied to ranged (im over interpreting that prereq in the bow strength feat probably), bow strength as a feat per Eladrins post, and now this and see how it stacks up vs the full level ranger. If its more on a non-favored enemy, but less than a favored enemy, then that's not too bad. But it still means every other class is hosed on it.

Hmmm...unless maybe they gave sneak attack unlimited range...

Overall, Im pretty happy with this one, and think they did a solid job on Pally, Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Barb, and now Fighter. Cleric is likely lacking but still has an outside chance of being ok. Monk I dont play so cant comment. Rogue capstone seems pointless, and the Ranger capstone is like finally getting your hurting tooth pulled...only to find out they arent going to give you painkillers during or after the procedure.

[Yaga_Nub]

Nothing needs to get fixed. 10% for this is fine. Ranger capstone is fine. Who cares about the Rogues. They can all hop on a pike for all I care. Clerics are powerful enough as it is.

Now give us Mod 9!

[Borror0]

The more I think about it, the more I like this capstone.
Like I said, I have nothing against this capstone. I think it is the reasonable response to Tempest and Evasion.

The problem I have with Tempest's benefits being polarized to the two extremities. It is both front-loaded and back-loaded at the same time but two wrongs do not make one right (which is something I think you agree with). I'll have to take out the calculator and run some numbers first, though.

If anything happens to Tempest I, this capstone might need to get tweaked as well.

That's all I am saying.

[Yaga_Nub]

Like I said, I have nothing against this capstone. I think it is the reasonable response to Tempest and Evasion.

The problem I have with Tempest's benefits being polarized to the two extremities. It is both front-loaded and back-loaded at the same time but two wrongs do not make one right (which is something I think you agree with). I'll have to take out the calculator and run some numbers first, though.

If anything happens to Tempest I, this capstone might need to get tweaked as well.

That's all I am saying.

Why are you saying it?

There's been no announcement about Tempest changing on the front end. E's already posted what Tempest is going to be.

But even more than that, this isn't a response to Tempest. Do you REALLY think that E made this one just because of the tempest enhancement? If he really gave a sh*t about that he would have caved a long time ago. This capstone has nothing to do with a response to any other class.

[Borror0]

This capstone has nothing to do with a response to any other class.
Oh really? How can you conclude that?

[Yaga_Nub]

Oh really? How can you conclude that?

The same way you concluded that it was.

[Aspenor]

Oh really? How can you conclude that?

probably because the developers knew what this capstone would be when they released tempest I

[Borror0]

The same way you concluded that it was.
You assumed that Eladrin cares about balance and values character customization?

Maybe you should revisit your logic.

[Borror0]

probably because the developers knew what this capstone would be when they released tempest I
Wow. Talk about planning! Eladrin thought about fighter capstone over a year before he even released it and did not change his mind!

It's quite possible that the concept of capstone was not even on his mind when he created Tempest I.

[Mirta]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.

Fighters are the most versatile of our martial classes, and in Module Nine we've given them ways to express themselves as the master of a single weapon style through the Kensai, or a defensive bulwark that protects the party as a Stalwart Defender. Their capstone is tied to the thought that while a paladin has their faith and a ranger is tied to the wild, mastery of weapons is what fighters strive for.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Prereqs: Fighter level 20
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your mastery with all weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal. Grants a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with all combat styles.

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to be an equal with you with two weapons), and the Thief-Acrobat or Monk may wield a staff with greater speed, they all fall apart when forced from their specialized combat styles. Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.

So what you're saying is it's still better to splash 6 levels of ranger with 1 level of rogue and 13 of anything else to be better than a fighter in every way? Done.

Seriously, though? Is this the best fighters can get? Make it 20% MINIMUM. Maybe 30% would ungimp them.

[Aesop]

Seems reasonable

Ranger Capstone is still broken, drop it to 15%

Rogue Capstone needs dramatic improvement

Cleric Capstone is underwhelming

Bard is powerful but due to game design is underwhelming

I'm still concerned about the balance of these over all


Fighter is nice
Barb is decent
Sorceror is decent though appears underwhelming due to content (balance mMobs a little and it will be good)
Wizard isn't bad
Monk... well I sorta like it
Paladin is good




About what I was expecting for Fighter ... Not bad

This actually seems a good scale

Aesop

[Borror0]

Bard is powerful but due to game design is underwhelming
Do you mean immunities?

[Aesop]

Do you mean immunities?

Mostly.

Immunity to most ...if not all Enchantment Spells makes a large chunk of the good parts of the Capstone nigh useless

Aesop

[Borror0]

Immunity to most ...if not all Enchantment Spells makes a large chunk of the good parts of the Capstone nigh useless
Not the capstone, playing a non-warchanter bard. :D If you play a CC/healer bard, that is the best capstone for you.

The problem is that playing that kind of bard is not really good, but of itself, going pure is a solid choice for both warchanters and spellsingers.

[Angelus_dead]

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to be an equal with you with two weapons)
That statement conflicts with an earlier announcement (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168667):

Ranger Tempest III
Benefit: Your skill with two weapons is unequaled - your training has turned you into a whirling tempest of steel, granting a 10% competence bonus to dual wield attack speed, a +4 shield bonus to armor class when two weapon fighting, your penalty to hit has been reduced by 2, and you gain additional attacks when two weapon fighting.
The additional attacks gained at tier III are identical to what we originally had planned for (the not-in-the-game) Superior Two Weapon Fighting.
Those two announcements can't both be true. Either this thread is correct and Fighter20 gets the same TWF speed as Ranger20, or the earlier thread is correct and Tempest3 grants an extra attack hook that Fighters have no way to get.

An alternative interpretation would be that mod 9 offers some other way to get an extra TWF attack without taking Tempest 3. Maybe Superior TWF would be added as a feat (relying on a constrained interpretation of what "not-in-the-game" means), or maybe GTWF provides it to anyone with 23 naked dexterity and BAB20.

[Borror0]

Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.
This conflicts with the current design of fighters, who are masters at specializing with a specific weapon

Most of fighters power comes from:

Weapon Specialization: <type>
Fighter <weapon> Specialization I
Greater Weapon Specialization: <type>
Fighter <weapon> Specialization II
(possibly) Superior Weapon Specialization: <type>

If the intended goal is versatility, regardless of the style, then maybe the restriction should be loosened.

The problem is that it would be less fitting with Kensai, though...

[Uska]

now change the capstone on rangers for the melee too and we'll love you again. I promise


:D

You melee rangers have enough for now already:D although I will say the bone they did toss us ranged rangers was a little overly meaty

[maddmatt70]

Alot of chatter from folks but not alot of number cranking. Lets see a comparison..

[Borror0]

Alot of chatter from folks but not alot of number cranking. Lets see a comparison..
Not really in the mood to compile all the base damage, if you want to do that part for me I can tell you the DPS of each build.

[FluffyCalico]

That statement conflicts with [url=http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168667]

Maybe Superior TWF would be added as a feat (relying on a constrained interpretation of what "not-in-the-game" means), or maybe GTWF provides it to anyone with 23 naked dexterity and BAB20.

Per the SRD
"Superior Two-Weapon Fighting [General] [Fighter]
You have reached the limits of the two-weapon fighting style.
Prerequisites: Dex 21, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +16.
Benefit: You get a forth attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -15 penalty.
Special: A ranger who chose the two-weapon fighting combat style can select this feat, even if he does not have a high enough Dexterity for it (though the other prerequisites must be met). But he can only use this feat when he is wearing light or no armor."

21 dex not 23 and 16 bab not 20

[xberto]

Rangers will still be better are TWF and Ranged since thier capstone gives ranged alacrity of 25% and their PrC gives them this 10% bonus for TWF AND Superior TWF feat for free. Level 20 Fighters will have to be able to select STWF as a feat to be able to equal a Level 18 Ranger in weapon speed/number of attacks.
Not to argue your point about a ranger making a better TWF but Rangers dont get those feats for free, they are just automatic. Fighters just get a choice.

[Aesop]

Not really on topic per se... but


I know everyone will hate this but since rangers Favored Enemies are all treated as Maximum Favored Enemies instead of a tiered effect. Wouldn't it make sense to lower the over all bonus. Instead of +2 for each FE maybe make the first aquisition a +2 and the rest improve the pool by +1.

So instead of at level 20 having a +10 (+Enhancements) instead you have a +6 (+ Enhancements)

I mean in PnP you'd have havea total of +2 to each and 8 more to spread around a little so 18 points over all across 5 FE. With the way it is you have 50. With my suggestion you have 30 still an improvement ... but not so much

Aesop

[Yaga_Nub]

Not really on topic per se... but


I know everyone will hate this but since rangers Favored Enemies are all treated as Maximum Favored Enemies instead of a tiered effect. Wouldn't it make sense to lower the over all bonus. Instead of +2 for each FE maybe make the first aquisition a +2 and the rest improve the pool by +1.

So instead of at level 20 having a +10 (+Enhancements) instead you have a +6 (+ Enhancements)

I mean in PnP you'd have havea total of +2 to each and 8 more to spread around a little so 18 points over all across 5 FE. With the way it is you have 50. With my suggestion you have 30 still an improvement ... but not so much

Aesop

I love my rangers and hate to think about take-aways from any class but IMHO this is a good suggestion.

[Grenfell]

Good capstone for those who "stayed pure".

Haven't seen a stronger reason for full character respec than this capstone though.

Back in Mod-1 days, it was extremely common to see people splash 1 lvl of Paladin/Ranger to a fighter to get wand usage. When the cap was 10, it made a lot of sense. There was no intent to be something other than a Fighter -- people just wanted a little self-healing flexibility. Quite smart, actually.

That's three years ago, folks, and there was no way that anyone could have predicted that three years later, their main, beloved 28-pt Fighter with every piece of raidloot, +3 tomes across the board, and so on would automatically be 10% worse in DPS than someone who didn't splash for wand usage.

We're not talking 6-Ranger blends, or 4-pal/8-fighter/2-rogue type of builds where the intent was clearly to create a new custom build.

So on the one hand, good capstone for Fighters (though it certainly pushes things to more of a cookie-cutter world); on the other hand, Full Respec is becoming more and more necessary.

/gren

[Xaxx]

Rangers will still be better are TWF and Ranged since thier capstone gives ranged alacrity of 25% and their PrC gives them this 10% bonus for TWF AND Superior TWF feat for free. Level 20 Fighters will have to be able to select STWF as a feat to be able to equal a Level 18 Ranger in weapon speed/number of attacks.

ok so tempest gives stwf and 10 % speed for dual, and the ac... fighters have this capstone.. gives them the 10%... they have kensai.... and you want to give them stwf to... ok so.. you want fighters to have tempest and kensai available pretty much right.... umm.... dude.... yeah fighters with the capstone alone just got a major bone (and i dont wanna hear about having to be lev 20 for it, since people are talkina bout the ranger capstone blah blah blah... rangers gotta be 20 for it not 18/2... which means 7 feats.. no the what 16 or 17 a pure fighter will get... get over yourself.. fighters primary ability was always their extra feats... now extra feats and nearly as good if not going to be better then tempest rangers iwth capstone and kensai.... please everyone... remember when moaning about fighters... how many flipin feats they get.. this is the biggest perk of being a fighter, no one else gets thatmany, not even close.

[Cold_Stele]

... get over yourself.. fighters primary ability was always their extra feats... now extra feats and nearly as good if not going to be better then tempest rangers iwth capstone and kensai.... please everyone... remember when moaning about fighters... how many flipin feats they get.. this is the biggest perk of being a fighter, no one else gets thatmany, not even close.

/sigh this old line again.

Feats are next to irrelevant in DDO - firstly because a pure Ranger or Barb can get all if not most of the good ones, but secondly because it's the enhancement system that governs how effective your toon is.

So a Ftr can pick Power Attack, but there's no Ftr PA enhancement.

Ftr can take Dodge, Mobility, SA but there's no Tempest.

Ftr can take GTWF but there's no STWF.

Bizzarely Ftr's get Ftr Toughness, even though Toughness ISN'T a Ftr bonus feat?

Those extra Ftr feats would only be meaningful if the enhancement system further added to them (as, to be fair, has been done a little with Ftr's Weapon Mastery).

It's like Rage and FE - they wouldn't be nearly as powerful as they are now without the enhancements.

Oh btw - add up the feats Barbs and Rgrs are granted and compare that to the number Ftrs get...

[negative]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.

Fighters are the most versatile of our martial classes, and in Module Nine we've given them ways to express themselves as the master of a single weapon style through the Kensai, or a defensive bulwark that protects the party as a Stalwart Defender. Their capstone is tied to the thought that while a paladin has their faith and a ranger is tied to the wild, mastery of weapons is what fighters strive for.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Prereqs: Fighter level 20
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your mastery with all weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal. Grants a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with all combat styles.

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to be an equal with you with two weapons), and the Thief-Acrobat or Monk may wield a staff with greater speed, they all fall apart when forced from their specialized combat styles. Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.
Meh. I don't even know how to feel about this. I"m too exhusted from the ranger capstone discussion. I want to say I don't like it but I don't have the energy to even think about it.

And I still don't know if my stalwart defender should stay pure or not.

[Eladrin]

Those two announcements can't both be true. Either this thread is correct and Fighter20 gets the same TWF speed as Ranger20, or the earlier thread is correct and Tempest3 grants an extra attack hook that Fighters have no way to get.
You've found a flaw in my flavor text. Fighter 20 and Tempest III Ranger 20's will both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed during that attack sequence. I'll edit my original post.

[Deathseeker]

You've found a flaw in my flavor text. Fighter 20 and Tempest III Ranger 20's will both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed during that attack sequence. I'll edit my original post.

Eladrin, you do realize none of the rest of us will admit an error and revise a post, right? What kind of precedent are you setting? Will we all now have to act with civility, reasonableness and humility?

Nah, probably not...but nice attempt to lead by example...

[Aspenor]

You've found a flaw in my flavor text. Fighter 20 and Tempest III Ranger 20's will both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed during that attack sequence. I'll edit my original post.

Unheard of. Turn on your PM's for incoming hate mail. :p jk

[doNotWantYo]

That's three years ago, folks, and there was no way that anyone could have predicted that three years later, their main, beloved 28-pt Fighter with every piece of raidloot, +3 tomes across the board, and so on would automatically be 10% worse in DPS than someone who didn't splash for wand usage.

/gren

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

[TFPAQ]

But given all of the other advantages provided with just 6 lvls of ranger for Tempest I, I don't think that a 10% increase in attack speed for staying pure all the way to 20 is really adequate.

Tempest I gets me 10% attack speed, plus 2 AC, plus wand usage, and ram's might. Or I go all the way to fighter 20 sucking down pots and cash to get that same 10%?

Sorry guys. It should be 15% so if you have lived the pain of staying pure it really is something unique to your build/class. And it should stack with everything...

[Hadrian]

Great. I was considering making a pure offensive fighter when this mod came out, but without the 10% melee alacrity, kensai III was vastly inferior to tempest I. This capstone is what was required to make going pure fighter ever make sense.

I am glad that they saw that.

[Aspenor]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

Sorry, this is wrong. Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D knows capstones don't exist in DnD, and that they are a feature of DDO exclusively.

[Angelus_dead]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.
Ha ha... in D&D there's no Fighter capstone at level 20.

[smyter]

Now give fighters the ability to select the bow strength feat and that may help fix the bow issue. (and fix the fighter haste to give 30% instead of 15%)

[Aspenor]

Now give fighters the ability to select the bow strength feat and that may help fix the bow issue. (and fix the fighter haste to give 30% instead of 15%)

I suppose you missed my post about the selectable bow strength feat? It's in consideration.

[Cold_Stele]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

Well, apart from the completely false info on the capstones...

Wow, what a great suggestion - can you think of any other ways to punish players for rolling toons without having the power to look into the future :rolleyes:

[frederjoe1]

I know that two handed fighting is not the norm out there due to lower dps but doesn't this give a nice bump to 2HF for fighters out there as well. That is something that rangers cannot get this kinda helps close the gap they were experienceing.

just a thought

[Tanka]

I'm not terribly sad that Tanka won't get this until they give us 28th level.

I'm gonna have to reroll Honos, though. Don't have the Dex for GTWF.

[Angelus_dead]

both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed
It's troublesome to use the word "speed" to mean something different than "amount per unit time", but this demonstrates why designers tend to use "rate" or even "throughput" when more verbal precision is important.

Unfortunately, if TWF Fighter20s are going to be solidly below Ranger20s in APM (attacks per minute), then I can't see a way to justify someone building a TWF Fighter (which also means no use for an offensive Fighter).

Rangers already have all kinds of advantages in skillpoints, Reflex saves, Evasion, wands, and spellcasting. Weapon Specialization and Kensai Power Surge are approximately matched by Favored Enemy and Ram's Might. The Fighter benefits of +2 hp/level and Intimidate mean very little (especially if you're trying to play offensively). The Ranger is already a lot ahead before increasing his attack rate by 9% or 18% or whatever results from the unannounced BAB20 animation with Tempest3.

About the only way the Fighter build can strike back is to rely on his Haste Boost enhancement (which is the core of the "Monster" build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)). It's true that Kensai gives you a lot more boosting, but will that be enough to close in on a Ranger? (And what about a Ranger who took fig1 or rog1 and learned Haste Boosts of his own?)

Looks to me like the first step to fixing the problem is to nerf Favored Enemy down towards D&D numbers.

[Riggs]

Nice

[bobbryan2]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

Heh.

[frugal_gourmet]

Unfortunately, if TWF Fighter20s are going to be solidly below Ranger20s in APM (attacks per minute), then I can't see a way to justify someone building a TWF Fighter (which also means no use for an offensive Fighter).

Looks to me like the first step to fixing the problem is to nerf Favored Enemy down towards D&D numbers.

In addition, you could work to increase the number of good feats in the game. The fighter would surely get more of them.

This is an idea a prominent poster here keeps proposing. Can't remember whom.

[Borror0]

This is an idea a prominent poster here keeps proposing. Can't remember whom.
Pretty much everyone says that. Hopefully, Turbine still has tactical feats planned for M9 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173174).

Additionally to adding feats, they could add feat-based enhancements for fighters (like Fighter Toughness, Barbarian Power Attack, etc.)

[frugal_gourmet]

Pretty much everyone says that. Hopefully, Turbine still has tactical feats planned for M9 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173174).

Additionally to adding feats, they could add feat-based enhancements for fighters (like Fighter Toughness, Barbarian Power Attack, etc.)

I know, but my joke depended on the fact that he (Angelus) proposed that like 15 times in the last month.

edit: BTW, I do wonder what effect high-level weapon specialization that fighters would get (not Rangers) might have on DPS because they might also add high-level enhancements to stretch out this effect. It wouldn't surprise me that much.

[vtecfiend99]

I know, but my joke depended on the fact that he (Angelus) proposed that like 15 times in the last month

Your humor is lost here. This is serious business we are discussing not some GAME....


Wait what? It is a game? Hmph.....

[Deathseeker]

It's troublesome to use the word "speed" to mean something different than "amount per unit time", but this demonstrates why designers tend to use "rate" or even "throughput" when more verbal precision is important.

Unfortunately, if TWF Fighter20s are going to be solidly below Ranger20s in APM (attacks per minute), then I can't see a way to justify someone building a TWF Fighter (which also means no use for an offensive Fighter).

Rangers already have all kinds of advantages in skillpoints, Reflex saves, Evasion, wands, and spellcasting. Weapon Specialization and Kensai Power Surge are approximately matched by Favored Enemy and Ram's Might. The Fighter benefits of +2 hp/level and Intimidate mean very little (especially if you're trying to play offensively). The Ranger is already a lot ahead before increasing his attack rate by 9% or 18% or whatever results from the unannounced BAB20 animation with Tempest3.

About the only way the Fighter build can strike back is to rely on his Haste Boost enhancement (which is the core of the "Monster" build (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)). It's true that Kensai gives you a lot more boosting, but will that be enough to close in on a Ranger? (And what about a Ranger who took fig1 or rog1 and learned Haste Boosts of his own?)

Looks to me like the first step to fixing the problem is to nerf Favored Enemy down towards D&D numbers.

A_D, keep in mind one variable in this is how much DR/- end game content has. If the pure ranger has an advantage in number of attacks due to STWF, but the fighter has a base damage advantage (due to strength), the DR/- could really swing things one way or the other.

Fortification also has an effect to negate Kensai 3 potentially, which would swing things back toward the ranger.

Not saying the above conclusion you are reaching is right or wrong, just trying to suggest that this will be hard to determine until we know what the mobs/content look like.

[Deathseeker]

But given all of the other advantages provided with just 6 lvls of ranger for Tempest I, I don't think that a 10% increase in attack speed for staying pure all the way to 20 is really adequate.

Tempest I gets me 10% attack speed, plus 2 AC, plus wand usage, and ram's might. Or I go all the way to fighter 20 sucking down pots and cash to get that same 10%?

Sorry guys. It should be 15% so if you have lived the pain of staying pure it really is something unique to your build/class. And it should stack with everything...

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the fighter also gets a +1 to his critical range, which isnt totally minor. And fighter's haste boost is a massive attack boost. Dont underestimate this, as the Kensai gets an additional 3 boosts, so a fully loaded fighter can have 9 of these I think (I might be off by one). That's fairly significant.

The fact that this is now even a debatable topic means it was a pretty decent capstone...

[frugal_gourmet]

The fact that this is now even a debatable topic means it was a pretty decent capstone...

Agreed. I think it's a good starting point.

Clearly there is a fundamental game design issue with back-loading strong features, but that has been discussed at length and capstones are here to stay.

Sometimes it's actually a little safer when you have a game with an overlay complex ruleset with lots of special cases to undershoot the goal, observe, and evalaute carefully. If they inadvertantly make a mistake that gives fighters (or anyone) too much of something, they are painting themselves into a corner. We've already observed how difficult it is to take something away. Even with a respec it would not be enjoyable for players.

This is going to be interesting. Don't forget: there are also a bunch of new items thrown into the equation. It'll be interesting to see what effect those have.

I think getting fighters within sniffing distance for now is at least a good step. We can continue prodding them in the right direction.

[Tanka]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that the fighter also gets a +1 to his critical range, which isnt totally minor. And fighter's haste boost is a massive attack boost. Dont underestimate this, as the Kensai gets an additional 3 boosts, so a fully loaded fighter can have 9 of these I think (I might be off by one). That's fairly significant.

The fact that this is now even a debatable topic means it was a pretty decent capstone...
A boost-specced Kensai can get up to 10 (5 base + 3 Kensai + 2 Enhancement), each lasting 20sec with a 30sec cooldown.

Whether or not they can afford 6AP to Extra Haste Boost 1&2 is another story.

[Yaga_Nub]

A boost-specced Kensai can get up to 10 (5 base + 3 Kensai + 2 Enhancement), each lasting 20sec with a 30sec cooldown.

Whether or not they can afford 6AP to Extra Haste Boost 1&2 is another story.

Yeah that one will be tough I think.

[doNotWantYo]

OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige?

I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure.

If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics.

So no respec FOR U.

[Impaqt]

You've found a flaw in my flavor text. Fighter 20 and Tempest III Ranger 20's will both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed during that attack sequence. I'll edit my original post.


Or you could just make the extra attack annimation so slow the fighter actually does keep up in the Attacks per minute department. Ya know.. Like the Roundhouse attacks for BAB15. Maybe Tempest rangers can do a Backflip or something spectacular before gettin that final attack in.,

[maddmatt70]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

There should be a respec. Capstones are also a Turbine creation. I totally disagree with this logic. It sounds more like a recipe for people to quit the game. My beloved character is now gimped and now I have to go to all the trouble of rerolling and leveling the character which for a casual player could take months..

[Borror0]

Or you could just make the extra attack annimation so slow the fighter actually does keep up in the Attacks per minute department.
If I was not on your ignore list, this post would inform you that STWF adds a main hand hook on your fifth animation.

Sadly, you'll never know.

[Tanka]

OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige?

I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure.

If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics.

So no respec FOR U.
You tell people to read the PHB to see that there's a reason to stay pure and then you admit to telling us this based on pure conjecture?

Hilarious.

There are no benefits for most classes to stay pure. The only ones that get any true benefit are Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Paladin and Ranger. Six out of eleven classes get a bonus at 20. Fighters get another bonus feat at 20, but that isn't a reason to stay pure. In fact, there is zero reason for a Fighter to stay pure past L4, unless they really really want GWS at L12, and then there's zero reason past that. (Alternatively, go Warblade. They out-Fighter the Fighter.)

The capstones are not reasons to stay pure. They're just Turbine's (incorrect) way of balacing pure vs multiclass.

[maddmatt70]

Now give fighters the ability to select the bow strength feat and that may help fix the bow issue. (and fix the fighter haste to give 30% instead of 15%)

No not good enough. The ranger will still blow the fighter out of the water with a bow and has evasion, spells, more skill points then a fighter, and can more easily switch to twf then a fighter especially if the fighter has to waste feats on things like bow strength.

[EKKM]

OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige?

I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure.

If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics.

So no respec FOR U.

Prestige class levels are taken instead of class levels, so they have nothing to do with staying pure. Pretty much the opposite actually.

Certain classes get additional abilities at level 20 as Tanka stated but nothing like a capstone.

So before saying your point still stands maybe you actually have some vague knowledge of what you are talking about.

[Angelus_dead]

Or you could just make the extra attack annimation so slow the fighter actually does keep up in the Attacks per minute department. Ya know.. Like the Roundhouse attacks for BAB15.
That would not work.

If they make the "extra attack" so slow that it's more of a punishment than a reward, then people simply chose not to qualify for the attack, such as by taking a Rogue or Monk level to keep their BAB down (and gain many other bonuses besides)

The poor fighter, however, is not able to get his 10% melee speed if he splashes even one level. Rangers get +10% at 6 and Paladins get +10% at 14, so they'd both be safe.

[Chelsa]

Maybe some of you need to play, a Ranged Ranger, a Pure Tempest and a TWF Fighter, before you spout all your sanctimonious theory.

You all post interesting ideas, but a little real world experience would be nice. :p

I like all 3 capstones and look forward them.

[Gratch]

Maybe some of you need to play, a Ranged Ranger, a Pure Tempest and a TWF Fighter, before you spout all your sanctimonious theory.

You all post interesting ideas, but a little real world experience would be nice. :p

I like all 3 capstones and look forward them.

I actually prefer the factual with-in-game-testing theory on the forums to some of the ranged rangers, tempests, twf fighter knobs in the game spouting their theories of why they're the biggest and greatest DPS on the planet. Then they die in part 1 of the shroud...

Player skill also helps a lot of builds just as much as the pieces that go into the build.

[Impaqt]

That would not work.

If they make the "extra attack" so slow that it's more of a punishment than a reward,.....

Ya mean like the Bump form BAB14 to 15?



then people simply chose not to qualify for the attack, such as by taking a Rogue or Monk level to keep their BAB down (and gain many other bonuses besides)

The poor fighter, however, is not able to get his 10% melee speed if he splashes even one level. Rangers get +10% at 6 and Paladins get +10% at 14, so they'd both be safe.

Sadly, I agree with ya on this A_D. I was being sarcastic if ya really Couldnt tell.

[bandyman1]

OK, sorry come to think of it they did call them Prestige.

I never played D&D. So is a capstone not DDO's version of a D&D's Prestige? As has been pointed out, a Prestige class is a seperate class. In order to to gain the benefits of it, you multi-class into it. There is no " special ability " you gain by being a pure classed character in D&D. Capstone is wholey a Turbine creation.

I know there was something in D&D they they always talked about getting for staying pure. You gain nothing for staying pure classed, other than increases to certain abilities for certain classes that are based on level ( bard song gives an extra +1, paladin's get an extra smite evil, rangers get another favored enemy, ect. )

If there are bonus in D&D for staying pure, then my point still stands, the bonus name is just semantics. But there aren't, so.....

So no respec FOR U.

Replies in Red.

[maddmatt70]

Maybe some of you need to play, a Ranged Ranger, a Pure Tempest and a TWF Fighter, before you spout all your sanctimonious theory.

You all post interesting ideas, but a little real world experience would be nice. :p

I like all 3 capstones and look forward them.

I have played all the characters you mentioned to cap while the only exception is a pure tempest whereas I have a ranger multi-class tempest. One of my main if not my main character is a twf fighter. I also currently have a 1 bard 1 ranger 14 fighter ranged character.

[BananaHat]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.


So, is this saying that the next module will complete the Tempest prestige enhancement line without completing the Deepwood Sniper or the Arcane Archer? (Don't forget the unfinished Bard prestige enhancement lines) If so, that makes me a sad, sad panda...

[Emili]

A little on the overpowered side again, but hey since fighters are underpowered it gives offensive fighters some viability. Level 20 fighter is far better then level 19 fighter which shouldn't be the case. I am not in favor of such a powerful capstone but rather a huge influx of solid feats to improve fighters..

Since bow strength isn't coming out this mod for fighters there is still no way to make a a solid ranged fighter. They can't compete with the rangers and their two weapon fighting and ranged capabilities for diversity either even with bow strength by the way unless you are talking about being able to shield up slightly better then rangers.

Hahahahahaha on a personal note Norg as one of the few pure offensive fighters left in all of ddo will be able to stand up to rangers and barbarians like he always should have especially if they add a few feats like superior weapon specialization to feat options. One final note, at least pure fighters do more dps then 6 ranger/12 fighter characters..

I am elated, for years at every level up I kept rustling with the options of splashing or not... Emili had been rerolled, respec'd, rerolled, respec'd so many times yet she remained pure and still is centered in DPS... I feel now that DDO did fighter as a class right. While still not the "Ultimate Warrior" of the compendium it has some of the gap closed between it and the other full bab classes.

[DelScorcho]

First, it is a very good capstone. It would have been better had they not backloaded the class. They way it'll work out, staying pure won't really yield a benefit until level 18 and then won't flush out until 20, when it will be time to start on the other 9 capped characters. The biggest question is whether the benefits of the splash, which can include evasion, 10 per cent melee alacrity earlier, better AC, and usable skills will outweigh the +1 crit range the fighters get at 18.

The ultimate question is whether 20 Level fighters will get invites to the biggest, baddest raids. I still think it depends on how survivable the character will need to be and how necessary self healing and evasion are in mod 9.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

Um...you do know that there is no such thing as capstones in D&D right? That's a complete DDO add on.

[Yaga_Nub]

So, is this saying that the next module will complete the Tempest prestige enhancement line without completing the Deepwood Sniper or the Arcane Archer? (Don't forget the unfinished Bard prestige enhancement lines) If so, that makes me a sad, sad panda...

Not to mention that all of the caster PrE lines are on hold until Mod 10 as well. :(

[BLITHELY]

All the pure fighters out therr will enjoy the additional attack speed.

As for all the peeple out their whining how this capstone or that capstone is overpowered (or underpowered and unimpressive), that their toon is now gimped somehow and there needs 2 be a class respec in this game. I salute u middle finger style.

While i have not been playing since beta as some of u love 2 say. I have been playing this game for over 2 yrs. I have seen builds come and go. Builds get "nerfed" by changing abilities, lvl cap changes, modifications of the enhancement system, and changes 2 monsters. Through all this i can say there r no gimped toons because of capstones or prestige classes.

You built yr characters the way u did for a reason. You took advantage or did not take advantage of the ability 2 multiclass with minimal restriction. You gained benefit from that decision. Your character has performed 2 yr expectations up til now and will continue 2 do so; or they got rerolled. What has changed? Not a **** thing.

Who gives a **** if "Bob's" Fighter can do 30 more pts of damage in a minute than yrs. This is not a "tool" fight put it back in yr pants. If my neighbor gets a ferrari does that lessen the joy i get from my corvette? In my guild there is an individual with 12 capped toons. Six are rangers all exactly the same. I asked him y bother making six toons exactly the same his reply was because they were "perfect". Perfectly boring was my reply; but hey it makes him happy.

So 2 all u powergamers, pretty much the only people who waste time posting their whining on the forums, reroll yr gimps, grind that xp, cap a toon in 2 weeks and start grinding those raids for yr loot. All cuz yr "tool" i mean toon is inadequate. The rest of us will be enjoying our gimps.

[Grenfell]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

You're clearly wrong. Entitled to your own opinion, but not entitled to your own facts.

"anyone and everyone familiar with D&D" would include at least half of my guild two years ago, and not a single person brought up lvl 20 capstones. Were you even playing when the cap was 10? Unless you have a statistically valid survey of 'anyone and everyone familiar with D&D' to share with us, perhaps such over-the-top rhetoric ought to be minimized.

I don't need to convince you, since you have no power or authority in the matter. But I rather think that most of the playerbase -- and I would hope most of the Devs as well -- are in support of the idea of full respec, even if they disagree on how it should be implemented.

And this capstone is the perfect illustration of why, after three years of tinkering, DDO needs a full respec.

But hey, there's a whole other thread just on that, so this will be my last on this thread, which should be about this capstone.

/gren

[Yaga_Nub]

You're clearly wrong. Entitled to your own opinion, but not entitled to your own facts.

"anyone and everyone familiar with D&D" would include at least half of my guild two years ago, and not a single person brought up lvl 20 capstones. Were you even playing when the cap was 10? Unless you have a statistically valid survey of 'anyone and everyone familiar with D&D' to share with us, perhaps such over-the-top rhetoric ought to be minimized.

I don't need to convince you, since you have no power or authority in the matter. But I rather think that most of the playerbase -- and I would hope most of the Devs as well -- are in support of the idea of full respec, even if they disagree on how it should be implemented.

And this capstone is the perfect illustration of why, after three years of tinkering, DDO needs a full respec.

But hey, there's a whole other thread just on that, so this will be my last on this thread, which should be about this capstone.

/gren

Gren, as one of the biggest opponents of a respec, you actually touched on the reason why. I'm of the opinion that if we can't agree on what should be included in a respec then I'd rather it just not ever happen.

[Mayen]

Anyone and everyone familiar with D&D and everyone I played with were aware of level 20 capstones and they said that is why they never splashed anything else.

You'll never convince me that people who splashed weren't aware of they fact they may lose out on a good capstone.

No respec, sorry about your luck, reroll. (Rerolling is the beauty of this game)

As wrong as donotwantyo is about where hes getting his information, hes also 100% right about the outcome of his conjecture. True D&D has no capstones BUT MMOs out there use capstones in their formulas for leveling up. It is a basic tried and true mechanic that every time a cap increase is put into place that class gets a new capstone put into place. These capstones arent called that and their centralized power is signifcantly less but that comes from the fact that DDO is just now reaching its first cap and one of the few MMOS out there that actually allows you to hit max lvl without hitting a capstone point at the same time.

So those of you who did not think that once they finished the game they would add such a mechanic in either have not played another MMO (which is viable and nothing wrong with it), or you completely choose to ignore some of the basics of MMO rules and now are crying.

[Emili]

Maybe some of you need to play, a Ranged Ranger, a Pure Tempest and a TWF Fighter, before you spout all your sanctimonious theory.

You all post interesting ideas, but a little real world experience would be nice. :p

I like all 3 capstones and look forward them.

I have and do... they're in my sig;)

[moorewr]

As wrong as donotwantyo is about where hes getting his information, hes also 100% right about the outcome of his conjecture. True D&D has no capstones BUT MMOs out there use capstones in their formulas for leveling up. It is a basic tried and true mechanic that every time a cap increase is put into place that class gets a new capstone put into place. These capstones arent called that and their centralized power is signifcantly less but that comes from the fact that DDO is just now reaching its first cap and one of the few MMOS out there that actually allows you to hit max lvl without hitting a capstone point at the same time.

So those of you who did not think that once they finished the game they would add such a mechanic in either have not played another MMO (which is viable and nothing wrong with it), or you completely choose to ignore some of the basics of MMO rules and now are crying.

Where to begin?

Only one MMO is supposed to be based on Dungeons and Dragons.
The issue is not adding capstones, per se, but whether bad capstones are added
The idea that a player of this MMO should have predicted the nature as well as existence of capstones in the absence of any indication they would exist for the first 2 1/2 years of the game is .. well, a canard.

[CSFurious]

i think that tempest rangers should attack faster than a fighter at level 20

the requirements for the entire tempest line are pretty steep and there should be a reward for that, i.e., 30% attack speed at level 18

fighters get haste boost and that is where their attack speed should come from

your attempts to nerf tempest rangers will just irritate your playerbase IMO


You've found a flaw in my flavor text. Fighter 20 and Tempest III Ranger 20's will both have the same attack speed, which is what I was thinking of when I wrote that, but it is true that the Tempest will have an advantage in number of attacks processed during that attack sequence. I'll edit my original post.

[moorewr]

i think that tempest rangers should attack faster than a fighter at level 20

.. I think Tempests should be whirling death - BUT I think that fighters/rogues etc ought to be able to qualify for Tempest, just like they can in Pen and Paper.

[BlackSteel]

i think that tempest rangers should attack faster than a fighter at level 20

the requirements for the entire tempest line are pretty steep and there should be a reward for that, i.e., 30% attack speed at level 18

fighters get haste boost and that is where their attack speed should come from

your attempts to nerf tempest rangers will just irritate your playerbase IMO

steep? nothing is steep on a class that gets all its essentials for free already. If rangers had to choose ranged or twf feats then yes the spring attack chain would be steep. But thats not the case.

[CSFurious]

4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

smells like stinky fish to me


steep? nothing is steep on a class that gets all its essentials for free already. If rangers had to choose ranged or twf feats then yes the spring attack chain would be steep. But thats not the case.

[Mayen]

Moorewr i completely agree with you although that doesnt matter. The fact that some of the capstones are bad (IE horrible beyond any doubt) doesnt change the fact that they were coming and known to be coming by some of us wether we want to admit it or not.

DDO is the only MMO based off D&D, but it is still a MMO and as such follows the rules of MMOs. It is just BASED off D&D, much the same that when you see a movie that is BASED off a true story, it doesnt mean you get the story as it comes but instead in the formula that is going to produce a successful movie.

The third point of having no indication from the from turbine comes from the fact that DDO is unfinished with its first cap until lvl 20 comes out. Granted not everyone would have seen this coming. You would have had to have played other MMOs to see that capstones would be coming when lvl 20 was reached.

Maybe you have never played other MMOs, in which case noone faults you or anyone else that didnt see it coming for being blindsided and calling for a respec of your whole character. At the same time DDO has the quickest lvl up progression of any game on the market and most other games have no respec of your char once you have chosen the path or options that are avaible. You keep them and move on.

[moorewr]

Moorewr i completely agree with you although that doesnt matter. The fact that some of the capstones are bad (IE horrible beyond any doubt) doesnt change the fact that they were coming and known to be coming by some of us wether we want to admit it or not.
You will not find any mention of capstones before the release of Mod 8 in the forums or any other official communications from Turbine about DDO.



Maybe you have never played other MMOs, in which case noone faults you or anyone else that didnt see it coming for being blindsided and calling for a respec of your whole character. .

I have played EQ, UO, Muds, WoW, etc. and I don't get where you are coming from on this at all. Let me add that I have no desire to respec any of my characters, even if it was available.

[Angelus_dead]

most other games have no respec of your char once you have chosen the path or options that are avaible. You keep them and move on.
That is incredibly backwards.

The popular MMORPGs allow you to redo absolutely every choice made while levelling up.

[Cold_Stele]

4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

smells like stinky fish to me

Let's ignore the 'flavor' ranged Rangers a second.

Every single one of the others has Tempest. Every one.

Why is that?

Because the cost is insignificant to the benefits derived from Tempest I, let alone Tempest III.

[Mayen]

4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

smells like stinky fish to me

Hmm, the feat cost is fairly expensive that ill give you. The returns on it though are 10% AND additional attacks AND +4 shield AC AND essentially +2 attack. All for 8 ap total out of 80 at lvl 20 (10% not 20%).

I'm sorry but I am sick of ranger fanbois feeling they should be the only class out there. Your class already is broken beyond comparison. Fastest swing speed, most raw damage (+16 raw critable damage for essentially every single mob that matters in game at lvl 20 on top of the base bonuses), evasion, AC that matters, the ability to effectivly range where no others can... And to top it all off you call any class that gets any ONE of these abilties a nerf to your own class when nothing has changed for you is just unbelievable.

[Aesop]

i think that tempest rangers should attack faster than a fighter at level 20


They do... STWF of Tempest III



the requirements for the entire tempest line are pretty steep and there should be a reward for that, i.e., 30% attack speed at level 18


Tempest costs less than most PrEs.


fighters get haste boost and that is where their attack speed should come from


Yes a whole wopping 18 or so sec out of every 30 for 5 increments is not even close to a permanent boost.


your attempts to nerf tempest rangers will just irritate your playerbase IMO

I have not yet begun to Nerf rangers ;)... though I would if ya want. Starting with Favored Enemy and then by making PrEs tied to Feats Features and Skill Ranks instead of Class Levels



Aesop

[Mayen]

That is incredibly backwards.

The popular MMORPGs allow you to redo absolutely every choice made while levelling up.

name me 1, 1 single game that will allow you to keep your gear and change every other aspect of your char which is the respec people are calling for. Wow and Wow-lite (lotr) are the only games that i remember allowing you to change anything at all on your char and even those dont allow a full respec.

[Mayen]

You will not find any mention of capstones before the release of Mod 8 in the forums or any other official communications from Turbine about DDO.

I have played EQ, UO, Muds, WoW, etc. and I don't get where you are coming from on this at all. Let me add that I have no desire to respec any of my characters, even if it was available.

Nope there was no indication of capstones pre mod 8 at all. Coming from a simliar backround of MMOs (minus the WOW which i refuse to play), and seeing the those commonalities between all MMOs (heck even EVE had its own version of capstones even though there was no cap to the game), may be a bit presumptious of me to assume everyone else sees the commonalities as I do.

[Angelus_dead]

name me 1, 1 single game that will allow you to keep your gear and change every other aspect of your char which is the respec people are calling for.
Hilarious. What part of "every choice made during levelling" do you not understand?

I'm trying hard to think of an example of any other MMORPG which has an irreversible choice during advancement after character creation, but I can't come up with any. There must be some, but I can't think of one. Not something like WOW, or Conan, or GW, or Warhammer, or EQ, or COH, or Vanguard, or SWG, or any other slightly recent game.


Wow and Wow-lite (lotr) are the only games that i remember allowing you to change anything at all on your char and even those dont allow a full respec.
Most other games allow some kind of respec, and WOW and it's clones allow you to change almost everything that matters.

[Deathseeker]

The idea that a player of this MMO should have predicted the nature as well as existence of capstones in the absence of any indication they would exist for the first 2 1/2 years of the game is .. well, a canard.


Obviously this is more regarding a respec discussion more than one about the fighter capstone. But, I think while your technically correct about the knowledge of a "capstone" in advance, you are incorrect about knowing that a potential sacrifice was being made regarding multiclassing.

Even at cap 10, we knew the cap was going to be much higher. As such, if you chose to multiclass, you would obviously miss out on the "top" enhancements available at the capped level, whatever cap we are referring to.

If you went 8/2, ftr/rog, then you knew when the cap went to 12, you would miss out on anything introduced for fighters level 11 and 12. Same goes for every level cap increase.

If this cap was going to 18 instead of 20, you'd miss out on the 3rd tier of the PrE's if you multiclassed. We all had a pretty good indiciation that more tiers were coming on the PrE's.

My point is, that while capstones were not specifically announced, it was always clear that as long as the cap was increasing, you were taking a risk by multiclassing. I don't see how one can argue that isnt the case.

Now, we didnt know "what" we were risking, and I agree with that, but to say we were unaware of a risk is not accurate.

Im going to reroll a few toons at this point because of the 3rd tier PrE's and capstones. But Im fine with that. I knew that I was taking a chance, and I enjoyed those benefits while they were benefits. Now those builds arent as optimal, so I reroll.

Wanting a respec is a very reasonable position to argue. But I dont think anyone can really argue that there was not knowledge the multiclassing had risk associated with it as the cap was increasing.

[Angelus_dead]

to say we were unaware of a risk is not accurate.
So what?

It's not like he said that.

[Elaril]

So, I'm curious. How does everyone think this capstone shifts the argument involving the existence of the ring of evasion?

[Deathseeker]

So what?

It's not like he said that.

Because I believe that is what is being implied in the debate. If not, then my statement is somewhat off topic. But I believe incinuation is that because "capstones" were not mentioned, multiclassing was done without any understanding that they may lead to a build that does not have access to the final enhancements at level 20 and would have to be rerolled.

How could one multiclass and expect to get the enhancements available at level 20? Obviously no one would expect that.

Therefore, there was some understanding of risk associated with multiclassing. Since the game does not have a respec mechanism, and has not indicated or even hinted that there will be one, then the choice to multiclass was a calculation of a known reward vs an unknown risk.

I support an expensive respec, I just don't agree with the incinuation that players didnt "know" the risk they were taking.

If that was not incinuated or implied, then I agree, my point was not relevant to the discussion.

[Elaril]

4 feats out of 6 devoted to tempest, i.e., dodge, mobility, spring attack tempest 1 & otwf for tempest 3

then approximately 20% of your ap's devoted to the line

all for 10% attack speed boost, that does not sound very powerful to me, it sounds like a big nerf

fighters spend 2 ap's for 10% attack speed boost, get 11 free combat feats & fighter haste boost & probably way more hitpoints

smells like stinky fish to me

I think you forgot that, in order for a fighter to gain the 10% boost, they have to devote 20 levels to being a fighter. That's 100% of their character levels at a cap of 20.

Tempest derivative builds only have to take 18 levels to max the line out. That's only 90% of their character levels at cap. And, with the limited benefits given to TWFers at 20, they are free to splash monk and rogue for the ac, umd and extra dps.

[Borror0]

*snip*
Even if it was made clear to us that there would be a loss for multiclassing, no one could know of what they would be giving up on, or when they'd fix it. For some, these characters have been built for three years. Do you really think it is good to make a player wait three years just in case the character gets improve/to avoid getting nerfed?

This is why the "you knew you'd give up on something" argument fails.

[Deathseeker]

Even if it was made clear to us that there would be a loss for multiclassing, no one could know of what they would be giving up on, or when they'd fix it. For some, these characters have been built for three years. Do you really think it is good to make a player wait three years just in case the character gets improve/to avoid getting nerfed?

This is why the "you knew you'd give up on something" argument fails.

Yes, agreed...I actually think we are all violently agreeing.

I am just taking issue with incinuation that we "didnt know". I am not disagreeing that even though we did know, we should still have some form of respec.

Debating with you guys is like arguing with my wife...the argument ends up becoming an argument over the argument and we forget what the heck we started discussing in the first place. And in the end we sometimes even forget which side of the argument we were on.

Well, its not exactly the same...I ALWAYS lose when arguing with her, even if I win. And making up with her is much more pleasant as well :D

[Angelus_dead]

Do you really think it is good to make a player wait three years just in case the character gets improve/to avoid getting nerfed?
And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166962).

[Deathseeker]

And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166962).

Touche'

[Borror0]

And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166962).
But they will add more capstones in the future so all is not lost. :rolleyes:

[maddmatt70]

And what's funny/sad is those pure-class rogues who held back from the benefits of a warrior level just so that someday they can qualify for an awesome L20 ability (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166962).

I don't disagree with the rogue capstone being portrayed as poor, but what if the first time you die its 100% self resurrection and every time you die after that it goes down 10%. That would at least be useful maybe not as useful as 10% attack speed, but hey at least useful..

[Borror0]

I don't disagree with the rogue capstone being portrayed as poor, but what if the first time you die its 100% self resurrection and every time you die after that it goes down 10%. That would at least be useful maybe not as useful as 10% attack speed, but hey at least useful..
"Useful"? Yeah. Worth staying pure at all? Not a second.

If it'd prevent you from dying, it'd be a start. You still lose out all your buffs and have the death penalty.

[frugal_gourmet]

"Useful"? Yeah. Worth staying pure at all? Not a second.

If it'd prevent you from dying, it'd be a start. You still lose out all your buffs and have the death penalty.

What if it's "true resurrection"? Wouldn't you both keep all your buffs and suffer no death penalty?

[Borror0]

What if it's "true resurrection"? Wouldn't you both keep all your buffs and suffer no death penalty?
Nope. Sadly, True Resurrection does not offer a smaller death penalty (wish it would).

As always remove your buffs, no matter what you are raised with.

[frugal_gourmet]

Nope. Sadly, True Resurrection does not offer a smaller death penalty (wish it would).

As always remove your buffs, no matter what you are raised with.

It should do at least one, IMO. They should improve it.

[Quanefel]

name me 1, 1 single game that will allow you to keep your gear and change every other aspect of your char which is the respec people are calling for. Wow and Wow-lite (lotr) are the only games that i remember allowing you to change anything at all on your char and even those dont allow a full respec.


That is because you won't find a game out there that allows for a full respec of a character you created as people are calling for with in DDO. While it is true that most MMO's allow for a small respec for various "individual" aspects of a character such as skill sets, limited types of class respecs, spell respecs, etc. Yet not one that I could find offers a cheap, easy button approach of an all out full, complete respec of ALL aspects of a character you make.

Those who want this full respec here also refuse to call it for what it is, a Full Respec.

[Angelus_dead]

That is because you won't find a game out there that allows for a full respec of a character you created as people are calling for with in DDO. While it is true that most MMO's allow for a small respec for various "individual" aspects of a character such as skill sets, limited types of class respecs, spell respecs, etc. Yet not one that I could find offers a cheap, easy button approach of an all out full, complete respec of ALL aspects of a character you make.
The errors of that reply have already been explained in this thread, but let's try again.

Take WOW as an example, because it's so popular that documentation is easy to find. How many meaningful choices about a WOW character can not be redone later by spending in-game currency? Does that game have even one irrevocable choice made after level 1?

[Deathseeker]

That is because you won't find a game out there that allows for a full respec of a character you created as people are calling for with in DDO. While it is true that most MMO's allow for a small respec for various "individual" aspects of a character such as skill sets, limited types of class respecs, spell respecs, etc. Yet not one that I could find offers a cheap, easy button approach of an all out full, complete respec of ALL aspects of a character you make.

Those who want this full respec here also refuse to call it for what it is, a Full Respec.

I thought COH allowed you to rechoose all of your powers and it gave you back all of your "enhancements" (the things that buffed your powers, I forget their name). You can redo your entire look also. What is there in COH that cant be respeced other than your initial class and type? Seems like that's very similar to a "full" respec in ddo that allows you to change everything but initial class and race?

Granted I havent played in a long time, but that how I remember it...

[Borror0]

Granted I havent played in a long time, but that how I remember it...
Oh, he knows that. We've told him more than once.

He'll make the erroneous assumption that classes in other MMO's are analogous to classes in DDO. Obviously, anyone who has played these games (or even read about them) know that you cannot compare them so easily since DDO offers multiclassing, which changes everything.

[Quanefel]

I thought COH allowed you to rechoose all of your powers and it gave you back all of your "enhancements" (the things that buffed your powers, I forget their name). You can redo your entire look also. What is there in COH that cant be respeced other than your initial class and type? Seems like that's very similar to a "full" respec in ddo that allows you to change everything but initial class and race?

Granted I havent played in a long time, but that how I remember it...

"The respec allows you to change the power selections of your hero, while remaining the same arch type with the same power sets, you are allowed to completely change power pools."

Even so, you remain the same arch type you were before. In WoW, same thing. You change around your powers from a Fire Mage to an Ice Mage but you are still a caster, you are still the race you originally picked, etc. Just your powers get reset. So no, they are not similar to a full respec that is being asked for in this game.


Of course none of that really matters because those who want this FULL respec in DDO do not want little details like that getting in the way. Ignoring the fact that like other games, we have individual respecs to cover a variety of different aspects of this game. No "all in one button" like being asked for here. The more they go on about it though, the more I laugh because it is easy to see this monster of a FULL respec will in fact, never happen.

[Angelus_dead]

Even so, you remain the same arch type you were before. In WoW, same thing. You change around your powers from a Fire Mage to an Ice Mage but you are still a caster, you are still the race you originally picked, etc. Just your powers get reset. So no, they are not similar to a full respec that is being asked for in this game.
If anyone thinks there's any need for me to refute that, let me know.

[Borror0]

So no, they are not similar to a full respec that is being asked for in this game.
/facepalm See? I told you he would.

[Quanefel]

Oh, he knows that. We've told him more than once.

He'll make the erroneous assumption that classes in other MMO's are analogous to classes in DDO. Obviously, anyone who has played these games (or even read about them) know that you cannot compare them so easily since DDO offers multiclassing, which changes everything.

Well of course, anything that doesn't show a full respec in a positive light will always be erroneous in your eyes. That much is a given with your arguements for it.

[moorewr]

Well of course, anything that doesn't show a full respec in a positive light will always be erroneous in your eyes. That much is a given with your arguements for it.

Well, well. Please post links to actual statements by - whoever you think you are addressing in this thread - stating what we want included in your "full respec." Start with me.

[Monkey_Archer]

Well my guess of 15% melee was close... 10% to all weapons good too.

I like it.

Level 20 is a long time to wait to match up to tempest 1 though....

For those following my various tempest vs kensai comparisons Here are the new Tempest-Kensai vs Kensai numbers (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2081828#post2081828)

[Borror0]

Well of course, anything that doesn't show a full respec in a positive light will always be erroneous in your eyes.
Obviously. It's much easier for you to say this than to actually refute the argument.

[Quanefel]

Well, well. Please post links to actual statements by - whoever you think you are addressing in this thread - stating what we want included in your "full respec." Start with me.

Or you can simply go to the Full Respec thread and see for yourself the list of demands wanted in a full respec by a good number of people. Start there.

[moorewr]

Or you can simply go to the Full Respec thread and see for yourself the list of demands wanted in a full respec by a good number of people. Start there.

No - you are making the accusations, you do the legwork. What did I post there? Or how about Borror0 or Angelus_dead?

[Monkey_Archer]

This feature already exists... its called re-roll :D

All feats can be changed... all enhancements can be changed...
Being able to re-do skill points would be nice...
Anything further then this is not neccesary or required.

[Borror0]

Anything further then this is not neccesary or required.
Class levels. I'm not talking about switching class but rather multiclass (ie from 14/2 to pure).

[Quanefel]

No - you are making the accusations, you do the legwork. What did I post there? Or how about Borror0 or Angelus_dead?

Accusations? Exactly what are you talking about here?

[Ryvin1]

.. I think Tempests should be whirling death - BUT I think that fighters/rogues etc ought to be able to qualify for Tempest, just like they can in Pen and Paper.

+1000

rangers basicly give up little to be almost the best ranged and melee , oh yeah and heal and cast spells. Why should they be the only people that can be tempest?

[Monkey_Archer]

Class levels.
Not neccesary or required.

14/2 and 10/6 builds have been more powerful then pure in almost every case...
Now a capstone comes along and all of a sudden your build is useless?

Sure my 12/2/2 ranger/fighter/monk would like to drop the fighter levels to get tempest 3, but thats a choice I made, and i have no intention of rerolling or demanding class respec.

[Borror0]

Now a capstone comes along and all of a sudden your build is useless?
Missing the point. Without the ability to respec class levels, the level of adaptability to changes is significantly reduced.

Think Tempest I/Critical Rage II builds.

[Quanefel]

Obviously. It's much easier for you to say this than to actually refute the argument.

Your argument is easily refuttable. You claim that since DDO offers up multi-classing that it "changes everything" in comparing classes across various MMO's. When in fact most, if not all MMO's have multiclassing as well. Since they offer multi-classing as well, you are in fact......wrong.

[Borror0]

Since they offer multi-classing as well, you are in fact......wrong.
Name me one and prove me that it is a system that can mechanically compared to the one present in DDO.

[Quanefel]

Name me one and prove me that it is a system that can mechanically compared to the one present in DDO.

"that you cannot compare them so easily since DDO offers multiclassing, which changes everything."

Which is your real arguement here? That DDO has multiclassing or that DDO multi-classing vs other MMO's are not mechanically the same? Of course no MMO is going to have the same mechanic from game to game but we both know that was not the arguement. You sure don't like being proved wrong, do you?

[Borror0]

Which is your real arguement here? That DDO has multiclassing or that DDO multi-classing vs other MMO's are not mechanically the same?
While games may offer something they do call "multiclassing" it must share a few traits with DDO's multiclassing for your argument to work. Otherwise, you may as well compare apples and oranges. I do not ask for it to be identical to DDO's but to be close enough to at least be comparable.

By the way, you have yet to even name one MMO offering multiclassing.

[Quanefel]

While games may offer something they do call "multiclassing" it must share a few traits with DDO's multiclassing for your argument to work. Otherwise, you may as well compare apples and oranges. I do not ask for it to be identical to DDO's but to be close enough to at least be comparable.

By the way, you have yet to even name one MMO offering multiclassing.

Pick an MMO and chances are it has multi-classing. It is not something new to MMO's. I'd offer up one but you have already set it up to dismiss since none will fall under this new requirement that it must meet DDO's version of multi-classing to qualify in an arguement.

My "arguement" was simply that DDO is not the only MMO to have multi-classing to refute your assertion "that you cannot compare them so easily since DDO offers multiclassing, which changes everything." My arguement was not about multi-classing sharing the same traits between various MMO's, that is now your arguement but want me to prove your arguement for mine to work? Huh?

[Angelus_dead]

Pick an MMO and chances are it has multi-classing.
World of Warcraft.
Age of Conan.
Warhammer.
City of Heros.
Vanguard.
Eve.
Everquest.
Lineage.

Oh, I'll have to stop and look some more up...


My "arguement" was simply that DDO is not the only MMO to have multi-classing
Unconvincing without exemplars.

[Quanefel]

World of Warcraft.
Age of Conan.
Warhammer.
City of Heros.
Vanguard.
Eve.
Everquest.
Lineage.

Oh, I'll have to stop and look some more up...


Unconvincing without exemplars.

I would not really say that Eve offers traditional multiclassing. More of pilots being able to train up to be anything they want to be.

[Borror0]

My "arguement" was simply that DDO is not the only MMO to have multi-classing to refute your assertion "that you cannot compare them so easily since DDO offers multiclassing, which changes everything." My arguement was not about multi-classing sharing the same traits between various MMO's, that is now your arguement but want me to prove your arguement for mine to work? Huh?
For an argument to be valid, its proponents must be able to respond to any attempt to refute it. That's basic logic and something I doubt you disagree with.

Your argument is that "other successful MMOs don't the ability to respec your class". Which is, to the extent of my knowledge, true. However, I raised that since those same MMOs don't offer the choice to multiclass like DDO does, your point is moot.

Now, that may be false and if that so, then please just name me one MMO offering multiclassing but no class respec.

I'd offer up one but you have already set it up to dismiss since none will fall under this new requirement that it must meet DDO's version of multi-classing to qualify in an arguement.
As I have said, please do so even if you think it will not sway me. It may convince others (which I am sure you care about) and it will satisfy my curiosity.

With that said, of course the mechanic must be at least comparable in some way. Sharing the name is not enough to make such a point. Names can be deceptive. For example, the word "right" is both opposite of "left" and the opposite of "wrong", depending on the meaning right has in the context. However, concluding that left and wrong are synonymous is obviously not a logical conclusion.

For your objection to be valid, you must at least prove your comparison is a valid one.

[Angelus_dead]

I would not really say that Eve offers traditional multiclassing. More of pilots being able to train up to be anything they want to be.
So can you name anything besides DDO that does?

[Tanka]

name me 1, 1 single game that will allow you to keep your gear and change every other aspect of your char which is the respec people are calling for. Wow and Wow-lite (lotr) are the only games that i remember allowing you to change anything at all on your char and even those dont allow a full respec.
Every EQ-based MMO has character respeccing. All of the ones A_d listed above have it, as do many other "lower tier" MMOs.

The only ones, off the top of my head, that do not have any form of character respec are DDO and EvE.

[Hadrian]

Every EQ-based MMO has character respeccing. All of the ones A_d listed above have it, as do many other "lower tier" MMOs.

The only ones, off the top of my head, that do not have any form of character respec are DDO and EvE.

EVE is planning to release the ability to respec attributes with their next expansion, which is due out any day.

More on topic: I see a lot of people comparing all of the benefits of Tempest I against just the fighter capstone. Let's not forget that you also get +1 threat range from kensai III. Critical rage enhancements have proven that to be very significant.

[Borror0]

Critical rage enhancements have proven that to be very significant.
True but mobs were quite different when Critical Rage II was all the rage.

Lately, w/p was the only reason Critical Rage was still problematic and hopefully this will also have changed in module 9.

EVE is planning to release the ability to respec attributes with their next expansion, which is due out any day.
It would have not helped Quanefel's argument either way because he admitted himself there was no multiclassing in EVE.

[Tanka]

EVE is planning to release the ability to respec attributes with their next expansion, which is due out any day.
Correct, because they feel for the players who misappropriated their attributes at character generation. They even made light of using Charisma as a dumpstat, which most players do because there are very few useful skills that are tied to Charisma.

[Quanefel]

Every EQ-based MMO has character respeccing. All of the ones A_d listed above have it, as do many other "lower tier" MMOs.

The only ones, off the top of my head, that do not have any form of character respec are DDO and EvE.

Not true. DDO has 3 types of respecs and Eve is going to add an "attribute" respec soon.

[Borror0]

Not true. DDO has 3 types of respecs and Eve is going to add an "attribute" respec soon.
Do you realize that he meant "DDO and EVE are the only two not allowing you to respec your character from A to Z."?

NB: A to Z excludes class in MMOs without multiclassing for obvious reasons.

[Quanefel]

Do you realize that he meant "DDO and EVE are the only two not allowing you to respec your character from A to Z."?

NB: A to Z excludes class in MMOs without multiclassing for obvious reasons.

Well I am glad you can clear things up for him by reinterpreting what he actually wrote as opposed to what he "meant" to write.

It goes well this liberal interepretation of my words: "I would not really say that Eve offers traditional multi-classing. More of pilots being able to train up to be anything they want to be." to mean this by you: "because he admitted himself there was no multiclassing in EVE." I think I know what I mean, thanks nonetheless.

[Borror0]

It goes well this liberal interepretation of my words: "I would not really say that Eve offers traditional multi-classing. More of pilots being able to train up to be anything they want to be." to mean this by you: "because he admitted himself there was no multiclassing in EVE." I think I know what I mean, thanks nonetheless.
If you are to get upset each time someone misunderstands your point, you should consider refraining from posting on Internet forums.

How about you correct me instead?

[Quanefel]

If you are to get upset each time someone misunderstands your point, you should consider refraining from posting on Internet forums.

How about you correct me instead?

I do not get how you can determine I am "upset" from what I wrote above. Do you have ESP now or something? Not that you are correct about it yet it is curious you can determine that, over the internet. And I will post where I wish to, thanks.

Correct you about this issue? I already did from post you quoted me on.

[Borror0]

I do not get how you can determine I am "upset" from what I wrote above. Do you have ESP now or something? Not that you are correct about it yet it is curious you can determine that, over the internet.
Label it how you will, instead of answering to the objection or correcting it, you act as if we had done something terrible and unforgivable. In case you had not understood it yet, assumptions are required to conversation to happen. If understands the wrong thing from one's argument, then a correction is needed for speech to continue.

So far, you've only said "How dare you conclude that" or "That is clearly not what I have said" when the proper answer would have been to simply correct where the faulty assumption was for the conversation to get back on track.

Correct you about this issue? I already did from post you quoted me on.
Then please point out to me where you refuted my objection.

[Monkey_Archer]

Missing the point. Without the ability to respec class levels, the level of adaptability to changes is significantly reduced.

Think Tempest I/Critical Rage II builds.

I think, tempest/critical rage builds have been overpowered for a long time.
Just because something else like a capstone comes out, and/or changes made to w/p, crit rage (and hopefully tempest in the future) that might make that build less overpowered or even less effective then someone who "suffered" with an inferior pure build.... is no reason to demand a full respec feature so an overpowered toon can remain so.

Not to mention how complicated and difficult this would be to code... they should be devoting time to more important things, like new content and fixing server lag.. ahem, oh yeah.. lag doesnt exist in ddo. :D

Hmmm... i better start collecting all the raid loot i can... never know when ill wanna change all my stats and completlly respec my fighter into a sorc. :rolleyes:

[Borror0]

I think, tempest/critical rage builds have been overpowered for a long time.
Let's put it this way: a respec option offers game developers the possibility to address through imbalances without the fear of invalidating builds. If that ever was to happen, one would only have to respec into something viable.

Basically, the point is to reduce the anger that may arise from any game change.

Hmmm... i better start collecting all the raid loot i can... never know when ill wanna change all my stats and completlly respec my fighter into a sorc. :rolleyes:
Monkey, no one argues for this. Please take the time to learn about our position before mocking it.

[doNotWantYo]

I've taken a ton of time away from the game over the years, but I’ve kept coming back because I like this game over the other games I've tried. No, I never played or know the rules of D&D. However, I CLEARLY remember around MOD 1 people telling me they were staying pure because of the benefits down the road.

I also remember people *****ing up a CRAZY STORM when ever the game deviated from the PnP rules. If capstones have nothing to do with PnP where are all those purists now and why isn't anyone *****ing? Has the player base accepted the fact that DDO is not D&D?

Also, if that is the case, for the love of god please make divine favor last more then 1 minute. It should scale like most other buff spells in the game.

And last, I can get from 1 to 10 on a bonus weekend which seems to happen a lot. I'm pretty sure if I put some effort into it I could get a toon from 1 to cap in a couple of weeks. Reroll in this game is so EASY that it isn't a big deal and a class respec should NEVER happen.

[Monkey_Archer]

Let's put it this way: a respec option offers game developers the possibility to address through imbalances without the fear of invalidating builds. If that ever was to happen, one would only have to respec into something viable.

Basically, the point is to reduce the anger that may arise from any game change.


Sorry, but i just dont share your sympathy for powergamers.
I think the devs should fix any imbalances and have nothing to fear from their player base. Game balance trumps player oppinion.
Let people be angry. It is afterall a game.

[Grenfell]

And last, I can get from 1 to 10 on a bonus weekend which seems to happen a lot. I'm pretty sure if I put some effort into it I could get a toon from 1 to cap in a couple of weeks. Reroll in this game is so EASY that it isn't a big deal and a class respec should NEVER happen.

Congratulations.

Now go get:

- Chattering Ring
- Seven Fingered Gloves
- Head of Good Fortune
- Dragon boots
- Jerky
- Torc of Prince Raiyum
- Bramblecasters
- VOD goggles
- Tumbleweed
- Levik's set (bracers & shield)
- Fullplate of the Defender
- Dragontouched FP (+5 Resist, +6 Con, Levik's)
- four +3 tomes
- tier 3 GS helm AND tier 3 GS cloak (meaning, Stone of Cleansing has been used)
- Two Mineral-2 Weapons

Let me know how long that takes ya, and how easy that is.

/gren

[Yaga_Nub]

The errors of that reply have already been explained in this thread, but let's try again.

Take WOW as an example, because it's so popular that documentation is easy to find. How many meaningful choices about a WOW character can not be redone later by spending in-game currency? Does that game have even one irrevocable choice made after level 1?

Let's look at that a different way. How many meaningful choices do you actually have with your WoW character? In my very limited knowledge of WoW it doesn't seem like there are that many. In DDO there are a lot of meaningful choices and the complexity of a respec gets harder and harder as you add more and more MEANINGFUL choices.

[Yaga_Nub]

Missing the point. Without the ability to respec class levels, the level of adaptability to changes is significantly reduced.

Think Tempest I/Critical Rage II builds.

Significantly reduced doesn't mean impossible.

You got a benefit for your choice now it's time to take the lumps for your choice.

That's the way it works. You don't get anything for free.

[Monkey_Archer]

However, I CLEARLY remember around MOD 1 people telling me they were staying pure because of the benefits down the road.

I cleary remeber people also saying that there is no reason NOT to multiclass :)



And last, I can get from 1 to 10 on a bonus weekend which seems to happen a lot. I'm pretty sure if I put some effort into it I could get a toon from 1 to cap in a couple of weeks. Reroll in this game is so EASY that it isn't a big deal and a class respec should NEVER happen.

My point exactly.

[KatellaZeyn]

As wrong as donotwantyo is about where hes getting his information, hes also 100% right about the outcome of his conjecture. True D&D has no capstones BUT MMOs out there use capstones in their formulas for leveling up. It is a basic tried and true mechanic that every time a cap increase is put into place that class gets a new capstone put into place. These capstones arent called that and their centralized power is signifcantly less but that comes from the fact that DDO is just now reaching its first cap and one of the few MMOS out there that actually allows you to hit max lvl without hitting a capstone point at the same time.

So those of you who did not think that once they finished the game they would add such a mechanic in either have not played another MMO (which is viable and nothing wrong with it), or you completely choose to ignore some of the basics of MMO rules and now are crying.

Really? FFXI had nothing special at 50, 55, 60, 65, and 70, and it was a while after implementing the lv75 cap that they added Merits to boost things up more than a base lv75 character would have. None of the other MMOs I've played had anything remotely resembling "capstones" as far as I'm aware.

Also, what other MMO lets you multiclass, especially in the way that DDO does? FFXI allows everyone to be dual-class, but your sub-class doesn't count towards your total class levels in any way. Guild Wars' sub class didn't count towards total levels either, and I can't think of any other MMO that allows multiclassing.

If your concept of "capstone-like concepts" is akin to the "merits" that can be found in FFXI and other MMOs, then the idea that people should've been aware of such a thing would be implemented and stayed pure is absurd as there aren't any other MMOs out there that allow the issue of "splashing" and only give special level-cap abilities to those who stay "Pure."

[Borror0]

Let people be angry. It is afterall a game.
Wrong. It's a business. Turbine makes profit and angry players don't make good profits.

[Monkey_Archer]

Congratulations.

Now go get:

- Chattering Ring
- Seven Fingered Gloves
- Head of Good Fortune
- Dragon boots
- Jerky
- Torc of Prince Raiyum
- Bramblecasters
- VOD goggles
- Tumbleweed
- Levik's set (bracers & shield)
- Fullplate of the Defender
- Dragontouched FP (+5 Resist, +6 Con, Levik's)
- four +3 tomes
- tier 3 GS helm AND tier 3 GS cloak (meaning, Stone of Cleansing has been used)
- Two Mineral-2 Weapons

Let me know how long that takes ya, and how easy that is.

/gren

Your kidding right?
You can put this gear on a monkey and it will still be more effective then most...

[Hendrik]

Significantly reduced doesn't mean impossible.

You got a benefit for your choice now it's time to take the lumps for your choice.

That's the way it works. You don't get anything for free.

Ya know Yaga, I look at it this way;

Making a FOTM build or pushing the 'rules' almost to the point of breaking, is asking to get your character 'invalidated' from the start. I have no love lost for those characters. No sympathy either. People would respec into the next FOTM build only to have that 'invalidated' again. Rinse and repeat. The cycle has to stop by not allowing it to begin.


Now go get me some coffee Yaga!

[Borror0]

People would respec into the next FOTM build only to have that 'invalidated' again.
"Don't build a good character if you don't want to get worse" is a ridiculous advice.

Players are here to enjoy the game and play, not to pay for the mistake of game developers or fear their wrath.

[Monkey_Archer]

Wrong. It's a business. Turbine makes profit and angry players don't make good profits.

I know of many people that have not renued their subscription because of zergers, powergamer, and generally a&&H()L3s who cant take 10 seconds out of their quick run to lvl 16 to help out someone that hasnt played said quest 100 times already.
As of yet i dont know of anyone that stopped playing becuase their toon just lost a bit of power.

[Borror0]

As of yet i dont know of anyone that stopped playing becuase their toon just lost a bit of power.
Of course, because they are playing it safe.

Ever thought of a fix that could fix imbalance but that would invalid so many builds if they can't adapt that it certainly not worth implementing?

[Angelus_dead]

Guild Wars' sub class didn't count towards total levels either, and I can't think of any other MMO that allows multiclassing.
More importantly, in Guild Wars you can change your multiclass choice by paying 500 gp, or for free as a quest reward.

If the GW multiclass were not changeable, then it would be a little similar to DDO's problem, because some players would make a choice that turns out to work poorly and be stuck with it. But as long as the devs let you retrain, there's a limit to how much a player can complain "I didn't know you'd make it work like this"

[Hendrik]

"Don't build a good character if you don't want to get worse" is a ridiculous advice.

Players are here to enjoy the game and play, not to pay for the mistake of game developers or fear their wrath.


Just as ridiculous as "I pushed the rules almost to breaking them and used loopholes in the rules to maximize my gains and now the DEV's fixed those and my character is not the top of the dogpile anymore. I demand a respec for my mistakes."

Players ARE here to enjoy the game and a significant portion does. And the DEVs do not need to fear the 'wrath' of some players that had loopholes in their builds fixed, finally.

Goes both ways B.

[Angelus_dead]

You got a benefit for your choice now it's time to take the lumps for your choice.
That's the way it works. You don't get anything for free.
Are you familiar with the word "game"?

[Monkey_Archer]

Of course, because they are playing it safe.

Ever thought of a fix that could fix imbalance but that would invalid so many builds if they can't adapt that it certainly not worth implementing?

There is no way "adding" something can invalidate a build. It can only create other alternatives of equal or maybe even greater power.

"Subtracting" something can invalidate a build, and i see your point here, but if said thing being changed or removed has been ideantified as "overpowered" it should be removed/changed regardless of player oppinion.

[Yaga_Nub]

Are you familiar with the word "game"?

No.

[Angelus_dead]

Players ARE here to enjoy the game and a significant portion does. And the DEVs do not need to fear the 'wrath' of some players that had loopholes in their builds fixed, finally.

Wow- so if a developer decides to nerf monk splash so that 1 level doesn't give you any AC, you think all the "untouchable" ranger players will be totally fine with that?

[Hendrik]

No.


How about 'nub'?

[KatellaZeyn]

More importantly, in Guild Wars you can change your multiclass choice by paying 500 gp, or for free as a quest reward.

If the GW multiclass were not changeable, then it would be a little similar to DDO's problem, because some players would make a choice that turns out to work poorly and be stuck with it. But as long as the devs let you retrain, there's a limit to how much a player can complain "I didn't know you'd make it work like this"

Granted, but Guild Wars also only barely counts as an MMO.

FFXI would be a better example. They let you freely change main and sub job at will and you retain any levels you have in either to easily go right back to where you left off. There's also absolutely 0 decisions to make about your character as you level up aside from gear, though, with the only exception being merits, which you can "respec" if you want to get the merit points all over again.

However, the multiclassing in those games is still entirely different than in DDO.

[Yaga_Nub]

...
Let people be angry. It is afterall a game.


Wrong. It's a business. .....


...

Players are here to enjoy the game and play,.....

**** it Bor, which is it? A game or a business. Make up my mind!

Then, if you decide it's a game, can you tell me what a game is so that I can change my answer to A_D's question.

[Hendrik]

Wow- so if a developer decides to nerf monk splash so that 1 level doesn't give you any AC, you think all the "untouchable" ranger players will be totally fine with that?


In an ever evolving game, changes are to be expected. If the DEV's decide that your scenario is harmful to the game as a whole, I don't give a rats ass what those players say.

And if those 'untouchable' rangers can't play this game without the loss of what, a couple AC, when I am done laughing at the complaining, and they figure out they are not 'broken' or 'invalidated' by it, yea, most intelligent people will be ok with it.

[Yaga_Nub]

Wow- so if a developer decides to nerf monk splash so that 1 level doesn't give you any AC, you think all the "untouchable" ranger players will be totally fine with that?

They would definitely have a right to complain because that would truly be a nerf not a fix because it follows the 3.5 rules that this MMO is based off of. But on the other hand, the other players that are complaining about the high AC ranger/monks might be much happier so you can't really tell how it would completely play out until they do it.

[Monkey_Archer]

Wow- so if a developer decides to nerf monk splash so that 1 level doesn't give you any AC, you think all the "untouchable" ranger players will be totally fine with that?

I have a 12ranger/2monk/2fighter.. and I AM ok with that.
More likey, Wisdom AC would be limited to the # of monk levels you have.
In which case i could still take 4 more monk levels if i want to maintain my ac.

[Angelus_dead]

There is no way "adding" something can invalidate a build. It can only create other alternatives of equal or maybe even greater power.
Wrong. Just plain wrong.

It's called a "proxy nerf". Look it up. Here are examples:
Heroic Challenge
Prereq: BAB 10 or Charisma 13
Cost: 1 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to force an enemy to attack you for 10 seconds if you pass a Diplomacy check. Chaotic enemies impose a -4 penalty on the roll.


Ranger Ultimate Awesome
Prereqs: Ranger level 20
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You've proved the word that you're the only true hero, and your confidence pervades everything you do. You gain +2 charisma, and when wearing light armor or no armor you add your charisma modifier to your AC and skill checks. If your body slot is empty that bonus doubles.

[Angelus_dead]

I don't give a rats ass what those players say.
Just because you'd make a terrible developer doesn't mean everyone else has to fail at it.

[Borror0]

**** it Bor, which is it? A game or a business. Make up my mind!
For the players, it's a game which means it must be entertaining. Otherwise, why play?

This notion is important to Turbine, because DDO is a business to them. It has to be profitable and they must ensure that the game remains enjoyable to their players otherwise they will cancel their subscription, which means less profits.

[Yaga_Nub]

Wrong. Just plain wrong.

It's called a "proxy nerf". Look it up. Here are examples:
Heroic Challenge
Prereq: BAB 10 or Charisma 13
Cost: 1 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to force an enemy to attack you for 10 seconds if you pass a Diplomacy check. Chaotic enemies impose a -4 penalty on the roll.


Ranger Ultimate Awesome
Prereqs: Ranger level 20
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You've proved the word that you're the only true hero, and your confidence pervades everything you do. You gain +2 charisma, and when wearing light armor or no armor you add your charisma modifier to your AC and skill checks. If your body slot is empty that bonus doubles.

And?

[Hendrik]

And?

What I was thinking Yaga.

Has nothing to do with anything at all. Even the made up example have no relevance...
:confused:

[Yaga_Nub]

For the players, it's a game which means it must be entertaining. Otherwise, why play?

This notion is important to Turbine, because DDO is a business to them. It has to be profitable and they must ensure that the game remains enjoyable to their players otherwise they will cancel their subscription, which means less profits.

Well it depends on what entertainment means to each person. With DDO for instance, a lot of the entertainment comes from groups and interacting with other people. If they killed off voice chat I bet you'd have a bigger backlash than anything else you could change in the game.

[Angelus_dead]

Let's look at that a different way. How many meaningful choices do you actually have with your WoW character? In my very limited knowledge of WoW it doesn't seem like there are that many.
That quite untrue. The only way you could claim the choices for a WOW character aren't meaningful is because players are allowed to respec them so easily.

It's hilarious to picture it, but knowing how often the WOW devs adjust things for balance (and how long it takes to level up), their subscriber count would be under 10% of what it is if characters couldn't respec.

[Borror0]

In an ever evolving game, changes are to be expected.
Only because you made peace with a flaw does not mean it stopped existing or be problematic for others.

But on the other hand, the other players that are complaining about the high AC ranger/monks might be much happier so you can't really tell how it would completely play out until they do it.
Why not try to make those players happy while offering a respec to the angry ones?

Seems the best of both worlds to me.

[Monkey_Archer]

Wrong. Just plain wrong.

It's called a "proxy nerf". Look it up. Here are examples:
Heroic Challenge
Prereq: BAB 10 or Charisma 13
Cost: 1 AP
Benefit: Activate this ability to force an enemy to attack you for 10 seconds if you pass a Diplomacy check. Chaotic enemies impose a -4 penalty on the roll.


Ranger Ultimate Awesome
Prereqs: Ranger level 20
Cost: 1 Action Point
Benefit: You've proved the word that you're the only true hero, and your confidence pervades everything you do. You gain +2 charisma, and when wearing light armor or no armor you add your charisma modifier to your AC and skill checks. If your body slot is empty that bonus doubles.


Lol. :)

An alternative to intimidate.
A reward to rangers who didnt "dump" charisma.
Nothing invalidated here... move along...

[Angelus_dead]

Has nothing to do with anything at all. Even the made up example have no relevance...
Your inability to understand does nothing to undermine the examples.

[Angelus_dead]

An alternative to intimidate.
A reward to rangers who didnt "dump" charisma.
Nothing invalidated here... move along...
Go find a Paladin with fig1 for Intimidate or a Ranger with monk1 for AC and say that again.

[Borror0]

An alternative to intimidate.
An "alternative" to Intimidate?!

An alternative with lower DCs, requiring no fighter/rogue levels and costing less skill points than Intimidate...

[Yaga_Nub]

... their subscriber count would be under 10% of what it is if characters couldn't respec.

What basis do you have for that statement......... that's right not one darn bit.

This is why you are a joke, even when you make your once in a blue moon insightful statements, because you turn around and make 10 statements like this.

Back that statement up with facts A_D.

[Borror0]

Well it depends on what entertainment means to each person.
True and this is why you should not try to argue against something because it does not enhance your gameplay.

As of yet, you've still to mention one reason to not allow class respec.

[Hendrik]

Only because you made peace with a flaw does not mean it stopped existing or be problematic for others.

Why not try to make those players happy while offering a respec to the angry ones?

Seems the best of both worlds to me.


If you need a static ruleset, I suggest FPS and RTS games.

With only X number of DEV minds working and being outnumbered by vast numbers of player minds, the players will eventually think of things the DEVs have not. In addition to making new content, the DEV's also have to patch those loopholes the players have found. Happened time and again and will continue. Get used to it, just the way of MMO's.

[Borror0]

Get used to it, just the way of MMO's.
Ironically, all other successful MMO's allows such respecs... but DDO.

[Monkey_Archer]

Go find a Paladin with fig1 for Intimidate or a Ranger with monk1 for AC and say that again.

A fighter/pali still has towershield proficiency, fighter boosts, a free feat.... this would "help" pure paladins.. and not "invalidate" multiclasses.

Ok, let me go find one of those rangers.... oh wait, I AM one. My monk levels also gives me much appreciated feats..

[Yaga_Nub]

...

Why not try to make those players happy while offering a respec to the angry ones?

Seems the best of both worlds to me.

I don't disagree Bor but you can't do that. In this example if the Monk Wis AC bonus was changed then you would **** off the high AC ranger/monks right? But it might make everyone else happy.

So to keep them both happy, you are saying DON'T change the Monk Wis AC bonus AND offer the unhappy people a complete respec.

The issue with that is that you haven't changed the playing field at all and if someone wanted to play a high AC character they would have to use their respect to create a high AC ranger/monk. The player, if an older player say pre-Mod 6, might do that but the newer players, say post-Mod 6, knew what was happening with the Monks and still choose to make the character they did.

I guess my overall point is - a respec isn't going to make everyone happy. Only the vocal minority on the forums.

[Hendrik]

True and this is why you should not try to argue against something because it does not enhance your gameplay.

As of yet, you've still to mention one reason to not allow class respec.

1. Cost vs Benefit
2. Players would just repeat same 'mistake' that brought them to request a respec.
3. People would complain time was taken from making content for ALL vs doing this for a 'minority'.
4. To many variables to make everyone happy with a respec


Sure I can come up with more after more coffee....

[Angelus_dead]

What basis do you have for that statement......... that's right not one darn bit.
You're the one who is ignorant about the fundamentals of WOW, so you have no standing to judge my evaluations of it. Anyone who's spoken to a couple WOW players after a balance change (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/1/24/the-hook-the-line-and-the-sinker/) would know this (and there are 12 million subscribers, so you can find one in your neighborhood)


This is why you are a joke, even when you make your once in a blue moon insightful statements, because you turn around and make 10 statements like this.
Wrong and backwards. In reality, you make yourself into a joke whenever you ignorantly insult me like that, which is quite often.

[Hendrik]

Ironically, all other successful MMO's allows such respecs... but DDO.

Ironically, your not asking for a 'respec' like all other successful MMO's.

You want a full class respec.

DDO has class options that no other successful MMO has.

DDO is not other MMO's.

[Yaga_Nub]

True and this is why you should not try to argue against something because it does not enhance your gameplay.

As of yet, you've still to mention one reason to not allow class respec.

Why not Bor, every discussion you get into is really about what would enhance YOUR gameplay.

And I have mentioned one reason not to allow class respec in a response to Gren in the Ranger capstone thread. Go find it if you're really that worried about it.

[Angelus_dead]

If you need a static ruleset, I suggest FPS and RTS games.
Completely wrong, in two distinct ways:
1. The reason to allow respecs is because the ruleset is not static.
2. FPS and RTS very frequently are patched for balance. They get away with it because characters aren't really persistent, and players basically reroll for each session.

[Yaga_Nub]

You're the one who is ignorant about the fundamentals of WOW, so you have no standing to judge my evaluations of it. Anyone who's spoken to a couple WOW players after a balance change (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/1/24/the-hook-the-line-and-the-sinker/) would know this (and there are 12 million subscribers, so you can find one in your neighborhood)


Wrong and backwards. In reality, you make yourself into a joke whenever you ignorantly insult me like that, which is quite often.

A couple isn't a large enough sample size and just because I'm not a WoW expert doesn't automatically make you one because you picked up the game at a mall, looked at the box, and then put it back down. Come on Gimpster you can do better.

[Angelus_dead]

DDO has class options that no other successful MMO has.
DDO is not other MMO's.
Maybe your problem is that you're lumping DDO in with "successful MMOs".

In reality, DDO has only a tenuous relationship with success.

[Borror0]

Cost vs Benefit
...which is an argument that cannot be brought by a player.

Players would just repeat same 'mistake' that brought them to request a respec.
Straw man or misunderstanding of the request.

People would complain time was taken from making content for ALL vs doing this for a 'minority'.
Nirvana fallacy, there will always be complainers. The real question is if implementing a respec is a valid way for game developers to spend their time.

To many variables to make everyone happy with a respec
Nirvana fallacy

Take some more coffee. I'll be waiting.

[Monkey_Archer]

I dont think a full respec could, should or will happen.
I might support a "re-roll" feature that allows you to transfer bound items to a new character provided you delete the old one.

[Angelus_dead]

I guess my overall point is - a respec isn't going to make everyone happy. Only the vocal minority on the forums.
Wrong.

This is simple, and everyone should know this by now, but here we go anyway:
1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. Due to those errors, the game is not as good as it could be.
3. The devs are inhibited from fixing errors because some characters would be harmed, either directly or indirectly.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. The devs would have fewer worries when making a change, so more improvements would happen.
6. Therefore, respecs would make DDO better for everyone, except for the recalcitrant few who hate to be proved wrong.

[KatellaZeyn]

Ironically, all other successful MMO's allows such respecs... but DDO.

DDO allows about as much respeccing as every other MMO I've played (and my list is pretty long), and significantly more than PnP D&D allows. Enhancements, Feats, Class Feats? The only additional respeccing I'd be interested in personally is Skills, which I'd see as being along the same line as respeccing enhancements/feats.

The closest I've seen to a full respec in another MMO is FFXI's merit system in which you can completely drop every merit you've accumulated and start all over building up your merits; but that's about the same as rerolling as I think it requires more EXP to cap out your merits than it does to hit lv75.

Granted, in FFXI, you can just drop a few merits instead of all of them then work towards getting something new in its place, but that's more akin to just respeccing feats/enhancements. It's not a full respec.


Also, I would rather see more character slots per server added than a full respec. I can easily come up with more than 10 character ideas to play, but the idea of having to start out as a newbie just to make your 11th character without deleting one of your 10 seems absurd to me.

It would also allow people with splash builds to put that on hold while they make a pure character to take advantage of the "current best build" then swap back to that splash character if things change down the road (such as capstones that aren't restricted to pure builds).

[Yaga_Nub]

Maybe your problem is that you're lumping DDO in with "successful MMOs".

In reality, DDO has only a tenuous relationship with success.

True, they have obviously tried to get you to leave by purposely making every mistake in the book but you're still here so they definitely haven't had the success that many people are dreaming of. ;)

Well I guess they were sort of successful because you left as Gimpster and then came back with your tail between your legs and had to create the name A_D so you wouldn't catch all kinds of hell. Too bad that didn't work.

[Hendrik]

The real question is if implementing a respec is a valid way for game developers to spend their time.





...which is an argument that cannot be brought by a player.

[Angelus_dead]

DDO allows about as much respeccing as every other MMO I've played (and my list is pretty long), and significantly more than PnP D&D allows.
Wrong, and amazingly wrong.

1. In every other active MMORPG, nearly every significant post-creation character choice can be change.

2. In PnP D&D, you go grapple with a pet Wight until you get a negative level. Wait 24 hours and you lose a class level permanently, and you can gain some XP and relearn any other class level you wish. Alternatively, read the gigantic PHB2 section on character rebuilding, which goes so far as to allow you to take a different race.

[Angelus_dead]

...which is an argument that cannot be brought by a player.
Absolutely wrong, as you could have learned by reading any of dozens of threads, including this one.

[Angelus_dead]

Well I guess they were sort of successful because you left as Gimpster and then came back with your tail between your legs and had to create the name A_D so you wouldn't catch all kinds of hell. Too bad that didn't work.
I told you it was often!

[Borror0]

Why not Bor, every discussion you get into is really about what would enhance YOUR gameplay.
Not true, and even if that were the case, I never opposed something that would enhance someone else's gameplay while not hurting mine.

And I have mentioned one reason not to allow class respec in a response to Gren in the Ranger capstone thread.
LOL, Grenfell did not even post (http://forums.ddo.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=174242) in the ranger capstone thread.

[Sabotage]

What basis do you have for that statement......... that's right not one darn bit.

This is why you are a joke, even when you make your once in a blue moon insightful statements, because you turn around and make 10 statements like this.

Back that statement up with facts A_D.

Sorry to say Yaga, but this is a valid point, with so many changes being made to the game, if there was no talent respec most people would quit.

[Hendrik]

Absolutely wrong, as you could have learned by reading any of dozens of threads, including this one.


So, by reading these rants YOU can decide what time is best used by the DEVs?

Wow, get off that high horse.

And you would have learned by now, by reading dozens of these threads, why so many are against respec including this one.

[Yaga_Nub]

I told you it was often!

Not as often as it could be but I always try to point out your good suggestions as well but since you post in 50 threads at once I can't keep up with them all so I probably miss more of your good posts.

[Borror0]

DDO allows about as much respeccing as every other MMO I've played
As I have said earlier, DDO is different in that it offers multiclassing.

[doNotWantYo]

Congratulations.

Now go get:

- Chattering Ring
- Seven Fingered Gloves
- Head of Good Fortune
- Dragon boots
- Jerky
- Torc of Prince Raiyum
- Bramblecasters
- VOD goggles
- Tumbleweed
- Levik's set (bracers & shield)
- Fullplate of the Defender
- Dragontouched FP (+5 Resist, +6 Con, Levik's)
- four +3 tomes
- tier 3 GS helm AND tier 3 GS cloak (meaning, Stone of Cleansing has been used)
- Two Mineral-2 Weapons

Let me know how long that takes ya, and how easy that is.

/gren

How did you feel when you pulled/acquired each of those items? Were you sad the search was over? Were you mad it took so long? Or did you feel a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction? Accomplishment and Satisfaction is my bet. NOW YOU'LL GET TO EXPERIENCE THAT FEELING OVER AGAIN!!!! WOOOOOOOT!!!!!!