Fighter Capstone: Weapon Alacrity

[Recovery]

So how many more pages can you guys go without actually accomplishing anything? :)

[Monkey_Archer]

Wrong.

This is simple, and everyone should know this by now, but here we go anyway:
1. Various errors were made during DDO's design.
2. Due to those errors, the game is not as good as it could be.
3. The devs are inhibited from fixing errors because some characters would be harmed, either directly or indirectly.
4. If respecs were possible, then characters could change to follow changed game rules.
5. The devs would have fewer worries when making a change, so more improvements would happen.
6. Therefore, respecs would make DDO better for everyone, except for the recalcitrant few who hate to be proved wrong.

1. One person's "error" is another person's "on purpose"
2. No game will ever be as good as it could be, because different people will view it differently
3. Devs should not be be inhibitted from fixing errors, and should not cater to minority views (myself included :D)
4. True.
5. Devs should not have any worries when making good changes that improve overall game balance. Regardless of who is affected.
6. Full respec does nothing for DDO or for everyone, only for an individual character, and only for people that choose to use it.

[Yaga_Nub]

Not true, and even if that were the case, I never opposed something that would enhance someone else's gameplay while not hurting mine.

But what if it hurt your game play but helped the game over all?

LOL, Grenfell did not even post (http://forums.ddo.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=174242) in the ranger capstone thread.

Then possibly the thread that Aspenor started about bow str. Either way it was a reply to Gren.

[oogly54]

For the players, it's a game which means it must be entertaining. Otherwise, why play?

This notion is important to Turbine, because DDO is a business to them. It has to be profitable and they must ensure that the game remains enjoyable to their players otherwise they will cancel their subscription, which means less profits.

Except I see a full respec BAD for business, not good. Sure making your customers happy is always a good thing, but if no respec is given are you going to quit? I hardly think so.

The fun most people garner from a character is the constant progression to improve. Once the character has maxed out on their ability to improve the fun of playing that character dwindles. For example, I built a fighter to have max STR, max DPS for a S/B, with intimidate skill, he also has a completely unbuffed 64AC. I have obtained every conceivable item on that character that could to improve the idea of the build. He also has +3 tomes on every stat. In recent weeks, I have stopped playing that character because there is no point, he is "done".

If an respec were given, allowing me to respec that character, I could make him the best build (read flavor of the month) in DDO very quickly, no need to acquire items, I already have them. In a matter of a short time he could be done again. If all character I have created were done so quickly and easily, I would be bored and quit the game for nothing to do because I already have the best builds possible for every class type.

The fact I see that there are builds that are better gives me something to work for, making a new character that can do better, whatever the build type is. That means I have a goal and something to work for, for a longer period of time. There is a reason games like WOW have grinds. Grinds are good for business, they are not put in for fun for the customer.

An easy button to the "perfect" build, means bordem quickly and to DDO means loss of customers.

[Hendrik]

Not true, and even if that were the case, I never opposed something that would enhance someone else's gameplay while not hurting mine.

LOL, Grenfell did not even post (http://forums.ddo.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=174242) in the ranger capstone thread.

All boils down to you B, don't it?

Put the game at the center and not yourself - you will be a happier person.

Best of luck to you B. Have a great Friday and a good weekend.

[Borror0]

...which is an argument that cannot be brought by a player.
Wrong. It can be debated by the players, which is what really matters.

[Hendrik]

So how many more pages can you guys go without actually accomplishing anything? :)

Shooting for a new record here I think Reco...
;)

[TEK]

So how many more pages can you guys go without actually accomplishing anything? :)

alot actually. Its amazing how long these guys can go, especially when DDO doesnt work correctly/favorably.

[Borror0]

Put the game at the center and not yourself - you will be a happier person.
Did you actually look at the context? This is actually the point I was making!

[Yaga_Nub]

Sorry to say Yaga, but this is a valid point, with so many changes being made to the game, if there was no talent respec most people would quit.

Sabo, I know you love WoW so here's where we can get a definitive answer about skills that can change between WoW and DDO.

Explain to me all the stats/skills/classes/talents/etc. that can be changed in WoW and then compare that to Maydie and all the choices that you had to make and think about with him.

Which one has more choices that affect the final character at level cap?

PS - Sorry I talked you in taking one level of Paladin on Maydie. :(

[Hendrik]

Wrong. It can be debated by the players, which is what really matters.

And you can say the same thing about what I had posted that brought that reply from you.

Funny how that works....

[Angelus_dead]

Except I see a full respec BAD for business, not good. Sure making your customers happy is always a good thing, but if no respec is given are you going to quit? I hardly think so.
...
There is a reason games like WOW have grinds. Grinds are good for business, they are not put in for fun for the customer.
Is that a joke?

You say that respec is bad business, but you also hold up WOW as an example of good business. But WOW allows respec...!

[doNotWantYo]

The fun most people garner from a character is the constant progression to improve. Once the character has maxed out on their ability to improve the fun of playing that character dwindles. For example, I built a fighter to have max STR, max DPS for a S/B, with intimidate skill, he also has a completely unbuffed 64AC. I have obtained every conceivable item on that character that could to improve the idea of the build. He also has +3 tomes on every stat. In recent weeks, I have stopped playing that character because there is no point, he is "done".

If an respec were given, allowing me to respec that character, I could make him the best build (read flavor of the month) in DDO very quickly, no need to acquire items, I already have them.

WORD!!!!!

Most of you supporting respec act like you've only played 1 toon over the 3 years you've been playing. Suck it up, there WILL NEVER BE a respec of classes chosen. Even if all your arguments are good, it's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. Just bury your head in the sand and wait for your bleeepin' prom.

[Monkey_Archer]

except I See A Full Respec Bad For Business, Not Good. Sure Making Your Customers Happy Is Always A Good Thing, But If No Respec Is Given Are You Going To Quit? I Hardly Think So.

The Fun Most People Garner From A Character Is The Constant Progression To Improve. Once The Character Has Maxed Out On Their Ability To Improve The Fun Of Playing That Character Dwindles. For Example, I Built A Fighter To Have Max Str, Max Dps For A S/b, With Intimidate Skill, He Also Has A Completely Unbuffed 64ac. I Have Obtained Every Conceivable Item On That Character That Could To Improve The Idea Of The Build. He Also Has +3 Tomes On Every Stat. In Recent Weeks, I Have Stopped Playing That Character Because There Is No Point, He Is "done".

If An Respec Were Given, Allowing Me To Respec That Character, I Could Make Him The Best Build (read Flavor Of The Month) In Ddo Very Quickly, No Need To Acquire Items, I Already Have Them. In A Matter Of A Short Time He Could Be Done Again. If All Character I Have Created Were Done So Quickly And Easily, I Would Be Bored And Quit The Game For Nothing To Do Because I Already Have The Best Builds Possible For Every Class Type.

The Fact I See That There Are Builds That Are Better Gives Me Something To Work For, Making A New Character That Can Do Better, Whatever The Build Type Is. That Means I Have A Goal And Something To Work For, For A Longer Period Of Time. There Is A Reason Games Like Wow Have Grinds. Grinds Are Good For Business, They Are Not Put In For Fun For The Customer.

An Easy Button To The "perfect" Build, Means Bordem Quickly And To Ddo Means Loss Of Customers.

Qtf.

[Angelus_dead]

Explain to me all the stats/skills/classes/talents/etc. that can be changed in WoW and then compare that to Maydie and all the choices that you had to make and think about with him.

Which one has more choices that affect the final character at level cap?
Why do you think that would matter?

[Yaga_Nub]

So how many more pages can you guys go without actually accomplishing anything? :)

I really have nothing to do at work today so I'm thinking I can go until lunch at least.

[Monkey_Archer]

Rofl...
I just remebered this is a thread about the fighter capstone... :eek:

10% weapon alactrity... great capstone.... i like it... :D

Oh Hell diddly ding dong (rap!

[Borror0]

It was a syllogism. You only needed to point out where the fallacy was.

One person's "error" is another person's "on purpose"
Irrelevant. Point is that they make mistakes, as evidenced by the fact that they correct them.

No game will ever be as good as it could be, because different people will view it differently
Not responding to the argument, which was that the lack of respec prevented developers to implement the changes they want to see.

Devs should not be be inhibitted from fixing errors, and should not cater to minority views (myself included :D)
How do you justify that it is a 'minority view' exactly?

Would they start changing the game without restrain you'd see massive exodus because the changes would become too drastic.

[Yaga_Nub]

Why do you think that would matter?

Because A_D, IMHO, the issue with respec is the complexity of doing one. Especially if you're adding it into the code without it being planned for from day 1.

It's sort of like the ranged combat issue, again IMHO, in that they will NEVER be able to fix it.

If WoW has 5 variables, for instance, that you can respec then it might be easier to add that in and use WoW as the standard like people such as yourself have done. But even if they have 10 variable and DDO has 50 then the complexity of a respec increases greatly and it's much harder to use WoW as an example. I just don't think a respect will ever be technically possible with the staff that DDO currently.

On another note, since we are talking about WoW a little bit, isn't it correct that you can't change classes as part of a respec and you can't MC at all. You can only change your skills?

[Borror0]

And you can say the same thing about what I had posted that brought that reply from you.

Funny how that works....
No. Since we cannot know what the costs are, and can only debate the benefits, debating cost vs benefit is impossible.

We can, however, debate if a respec would be a good thing for the game for as long as the cost/benefit is there.

[Sabotage]

Sabo, I know you love WoW so here's where we can get a definitive answer about skills that can change between WoW and DDO.

Explain to me all the stats/skills/classes/talents/etc. that can be changed in WoW and then compare that to Maydie and all the choices that you had to make and think about with him.

Which one has more choices that affect the final character at level cap?

PS - Sorry I talked you in taking one level of Paladin on Maydie. :(

Well to keep it short, DDO has more areas to manage when leveling a character, but nothing more meaningful by a stretch. Talents in WoW are just as important as any part of customization in DDO. They have the ability to make or break a character.

[Borror0]

An easy button to the "perfect" build, means bordem quickly and to DDO means loss of customers.
Interestingly enough, many MMOs allow full respecs and many of those are more successful than DDO.

[Hendrik]

Interestingly enough, many MMOs allow full respecs and many of those are more successful than DDO.


Such as?

[oogly54]

Is that a joke?

You say that respec is bad business, but you also hold up WOW as an example of good business. But WOW allows respec...!

Good point. But my point still stands, that taking away our grind, would be bad for business. The fact it takes about 10X as long to cap in WOW versus DDO lends itself a little more favorably to a respec. Let alone the amount of time sink it takes to gain skills. To CAP a character in DDO means to cap out skills, this is not so in WOW.

Remember, I did not state whether I was for or against a respec, just that I think it is bad for business for DDO.

[Yaga_Nub]

Interestingly enough, many MMOs allow full respecs and many of those are more successful than DDO.

But are they more successful than DDO because of that or because they had better support in marketing when they started?

[Monkey_Archer]

Not responding to the argument, which was that the lack of respec prevented developers to implement the changes they want to see.

I dont think its a lack of respec that prevents devs from implementing changes they want to see... probably time, money, cost vs benefit.... it is a buisiness for them afterall.


How do you justify that it is a 'minority view' exactly?

Lets say every1 in this thread all agrees that a respec is good.... that is still a minority. There is no accurate way to know if the majority of people would support this.


Would they start changing the game without restrain you'd see massive exodus because the changes would become too drastic.
Restraint is good.
Listening to players, logic and reason is good too.

I would have no real complaints if this were implemented...
I am a programmer though, and i know this would take ALOT of work to implement.
And i think that time would be better spent elsewhere.

[oogly54]

Interestingly enough, many MMOs allow full respecs and many of those are more successful than DDO.

As you have stated many times, the mechanics of othe MMOs and and DDO are not the same.

[Tanka]

How did you feel when you pulled/acquired each of those items? Were you sad the search was over? Were you mad it took so long? Or did you feel a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction? Accomplishment and Satisfaction is my bet. NOW YOU'LL GET TO EXPERIENCE THAT FEELING OVER AGAIN!!!! WOOOOOOOT!!!!!!
You mean experience total frustration at the seventh Titan run in a row in which no raid loot dropped, or the 20th Reaver which has no +3 tomes and no items you can use, even for a laugh?

You really have no idea what you're talking about.


Interestingly enough, many MMOs allow full respecs and many of those are more successful than DDO.
I don't think we need to relist all those MMOs. Most of them are patently obvious by now.

[Hendrik]

Is that a joke?

You say that respec is bad business, but you also hold up WOW as an example of good business. But WOW allows respec...!

WoW respec is of Talents, ONLY. You CANNOT respec from Hunter to Warlock!

Just like our ability to respec Enhancements. We can respec Feats as well.

So, in that reguard, our game is better because we have more options in respecs.

But these facts do not support your argument, so please, continue to pass them by...

[Tanka]

Such as?
WoW
EQ/EQ2
CoH/CoV

And on the "arguably more successful" list:
Vanguard
AoC

And many more!

[Tanka]

WoW respec is of Talents, ONLY. You CANNOT respec from Hunter to Warlock!

Just like our ability to respec Enhancements. We can respec Feats as well.

So, in that reguard, our game is better because we have more options in respecs.
And the talents completely change your character.

You can go from a tank Fighter to a DPS Fighter by respeccing your talents.

You can go from a tank Paladin to a healer Paladin.

You can go from a healer Druid to a DPS Druid.

You're arguing points you don't even understand, Hendrik.

[Laith]

On another note, since we are talking about WoW a little bit, isn't it correct that you can't change classes as part of a respec and you can't MC at all. You can only change your skills?that is correct, except that in WoW, it is abundently clear from square one that a Hunter is Ranged DPS, rogue is Melee DPS, Warrior is a Melee Tank, etc and that the few alternatives are clearly defined in different roles. In effect, you can guess what kind of abilities are going to be given to all classes because they told you how they all differed in role before you even chose one. Even if the balance isn't right, they told you in plain english how they intend the classes to perform, and you have a reasonable expectation for balance to be restored.

What if i wanted to make a melee DPS in DDO at release: Would i make a barbarian, fighter, rogue, or ranger? Would i mix them? If so, to what degree?
If i wanted to make a melee tank in DDO now: Would I make a monk, fighter, ranger, rogue, or paladin? Do i mix them? If so, to what degree? Do i need to MC for evasion? Is plate/S&B or robes/DEX better for defense?
These questions DON'T EXIST IN WoW. They flat out tell you which classes are best suited for which role.
In DDO, the answer to those questions changes roughly every mod.

You could use the same argument for WoW races (you can't respec them), but the race decision in WoW is largely an aestetic one. In DDO, the race you choose goes a long way to determining your abilities, and the effect of a racial choice has changed drastically since release.

[Hendrik]

And the talents completely change your character.

You can go from a tank Fighter to a DPS Fighter by respeccing your talents.

You can go from a tank Paladin to a healer Paladin.

You can go from a healer Druid to a DPS Druid.

You're arguing points you don't even understand, Hendrik.

And what, our Enhancements don't change the character?

In the end you are STILL the Fighter, the Paladin, the Druid. People here want something totally different. They want to 'spec out of one their MC's to either go pure or pick up a different class.

[Borror0]

I dont think its a lack of respec that prevents devs from implementing changes they want to see... probably time, money, cost vs benefit.... it is a buisiness for them afterall.
Eladrin has stated, in regards to both the Dwarven Toughness and Critical Rage II, that they were trying hard to find a way to fix them without nerfing them (ie nerfing is the best and preferable way but we know we are going to lose subscriber if we do or don't do it right).

Lets say every1 in this thread all agrees that a respec is good.... that is still a minority. There is no accurate way to know if the majority of people would support this.
This is not the minority I was referring to.

How do you know it is only a minority that minds having their character invalidated by change?

I would have no real complaints if this were implemented...
This may sound rude, but why do you oppose then?

But are they more successful than DDO because of that or because they had better support in marketing when they started?
Irrelevant since this was a reply to his argument that DDO would die if we implemented respecs.

As you have stated many times, the mechanics of othe MMOs and and DDO are not the same.
Then, please, elaborate as to how that means DDO would lose profits if a full respec was implemented.

What is so different?

[doNotWantYo]

WoW
EQ/EQ2
CoH/CoV

And on the "arguably more successful" list:
Vanguard
AoC

And many more!

I played EQ till Planes of Power and when I realized a 50 rogue could out DPS my 50 fighter because of the back stab changes I wasn't aloud to respec my 50 levels. I rerolled a rogue from level 1.

This is our time to dance. It is our way of celebrating life. It's the way it was in the beginning. It's the way it's always been. It's the way it should be now.

[Tanka]

And what, our Enhancements don't change the character?

In the end you are STILL the Fighter, the Paladin, the Druid. People here want something totally different. They want to 'spec out of one their MC's to either go pure or pick up a different class.
It is incredibly difficult to go from a Warchanter to a healing-dedicated Bard without a willingness to expend massive amounts of resources in a quest to "get the job done".

It is incredibly difficult to be a real tank if you started with an 8 Int.

In WoW, you can do either by spending a sum of gold. All it takes is having the alternate gear to switch to after you finish.

[Tanka]

I played EQ till Planes of Power and when I realized a 50 rogue could out DPS my 50 fighter because of the back stab changes I wasn't aloud to respec my 50 levels. I rerolled a rogue from level 1.

This is our time to dance. It is our way of celebrating life. It's the way it was in the beginning. It's the way it's always been. It's the way it should be now.
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The request for a respec is not to change your base class. It's to change attributes/skills/extraneous class levels. It is, in fact, very similar to respecing talents.

[Borror0]

In the end you are STILL the Fighter, the Paladin, the Druid. People here want something totally different.
Of course not. In the end, you're still a fighter whether you are 18/2 or 17/3. However, there is quite power difference between the two builds. ...and the x ftr/3 pal was a superior build for quite longer but now all is different because the x/3 build is much more behind.

Also, the inability to change ability scores prevents some of the adaptability. Try Warchanter to CC bard for show.

[PhoenixFire31]

ALl this **** about WOW lets you respec let me point something out to you...SO DOES DDO FOR THE SAME THING. You can change your feats AND enhancements here, just like their talents.

WoW WILL NOT let you change your class though. You can't take you 60 Hunter and make him a Paladin just cause it is now available to your race. DDO will also not let you respec your class....

[Monkey_Archer]

It is incredibly difficult to go from a Warchanter to a healing-dedicated Bard without a willingness to expend massive amounts of resources in a quest to "get the job done".

It is incredibly difficult to be a real tank if you started with an 8 Int.

In WoW, you can do either by spending a sum of gold. All it takes is having the alternate gear to switch to after you finish.

Being able to buy siberus dragon shards.. and eliminating the 3 day timer would be nice.

[Borror0]

eliminating the 3 day timer would be nice.
Do you know what that would result in?! :eek:

[PhoenixFire31]

Oh and lets not forget that those 2 or 3 Pally levels are NOT useless...wand healing, saves, ac boost...none of that is useless just because of a capstone...YOU BUILD IS STILL VALID and a capstone does not suddenly make a character you have been playing for X months not fun. If it was fun before it should still be fun now.

[Hendrik]

It is incredibly difficult to go from a Warchanter to a healing-dedicated Bard without a willingness to expend massive amounts of resources in a quest to "get the job done".

It is incredibly difficult to be a real tank if you started with an 8 Int.

In WoW, you can do either by spending a sum of gold. All it takes is having the alternate gear to switch to after you finish.

Nothing wrong with it being difficult, IMO, it should be. With my Bard I have gone from Spellslinger to Virtuoso, and soon WC, without the expenditure of massive resources. Think I may have run with you before on my Bard before Tanka.

I much prefer a system where the player and character are the determining factors and not gear that make the difference or character viable.

[Tanka]

ALl this **** about WOW lets you respec let me point something out to you...SO DOES DDO FOR THE SAME THING. You can change your feats AND enhancements here, just like their talents.

WoW WILL NOT let you change your class though. You can't take you 60 Hunter and make him a Paladin just cause it is now available to your race. DDO will also not let you respec your class....
If you think people are asking that they be able to change from Fighter to Sorcerer, you are hilariously wrong.

[Borror0]

DDO will also not let you respec your class....
...even though it allows you to multiclass.

[PhoenixFire31]

Do you know what that would result in?! :eek:

Very bad joojoo.

[PhoenixFire31]

If you think people are asking that they be able to change from Fighter to Sorcerer, you are hilariously wrong.

Not at all I am merely comparing apples to apples while everyone else is comparing apples to oranges...

[Yaga_Nub]

Irrelevant since this was a reply to his argument that DDO would die if we implemented respecs.

And you used success as the measure to say that respecs should be in the game but respecs, in total, aren't making those game successful so it's not a good response.

[Borror0]

Nothing wrong with it being difficult, IMO, it should be. With my Bard I have gone from Spellslinger to Virtuoso, and soon WC, without the expenditure of massive resources.
My Warchanter, with his 12 Cha, would be a really bad CC bard... :rolleyes:

[Tanka]

Do you know what that would result in?! :eek:
A system that allows you to change on a whim based on who's in your group. Which is obviously what is least desirable in an MMO.


Nothing wrong with it being difficult, IMO, it should be. With my Bard I have gone from Spellslinger to Virtuoso, and soon WC, without the expenditure of massive resources. Think I may have run with you before on my Bard before Tanka.
There's a difference between difficult and asking yourself why you're bothering.

It's relatively simple for a Bard to switch PrEs, but to effectively become a Warchanter (one that actually wades into melee, mind you) is another point entirely.

In WoW, you talk to your trainer, pay some gold and re-choose all of your talents. Switch out your gear and you're as good (numerically speaking) as someone that has been playing that build since creation.

It allows the Devs to make more widesweeping changes that need to be made without fearing that they'll utterly destroy certain characters.

[Tanka]

Not at all I am merely comparing apples to apples while everyone else is comparing apples to oranges...
No, you're comparing two wholly different things. You're claiming we all want to go from Ftr16 to Sor16, which isnt' the case. We're asking we be allowed to go from Ftr15/Pal1 to Ftr16.


My Warchanter, with his 12 Cha, would be a really bad CC bard... :rolleyes:
No way man. You'd be totally effective at WW!

[Borror0]

it's not a good response.
Of course it is.

Argument: DDO will die if it allows respec.
Rebuttal: Other more successful MMOs allows full respec, why would DDO be any different?

I am not using the success of an MMO to justify respec. I am using its success to prove that allowing respec will not lead to the selfdestruction of DDO.

[Yaga_Nub]

My Warchanter, with his 12 Cha, would be a really bad CC bard... :rolleyes:

But you understood what you were building when you created a bard, whose main stat is CHA, with a low CHA. You purposely made the decision to make it more difficult to be a spellsinger or virtuoso.

[Sabotage]

Not at all I am merely comparing apples to apples while everyone else is comparing apples to oranges...

Apples to apples would be Talents-WoW::Full Respec-DDO

They both carry the same importance for the ways the games are designed. :D

[Hendrik]

My Warchanter, with his 12 Cha, would be a really bad CC bard... :rolleyes:


A Bard with 12 CHA? YIKES!

IMO, that just a bad Bard.

Let me guess, min/max?

[Monkey_Archer]

Of course not. In the end, you're still a fighter whether you are 18/2 or 17/3. However, there is quite power difference between the two builds. ...and the x ftr/3 pal was a superior build for quite longer but now all is different because the x/3 build is much more behind.

Also, the inability to change ability scores prevents some of the adaptability. Try Warchanter to CC bard for show.

You keep saying that things "invalidate" your build...
A fighter/pali still retains many advantages over a pure fighter. (saves, immunities, wand useage, ac....)
Fighter capstone does not change the power of that build one bit...
it only helps out a currently inferior build.

[Monkey_Archer]

This may sound rude, but why do you oppose then?


I dont oppose it. I think its not neccesary or required, and a waste of development time.

[PhoenixFire31]

Class levels =/= talents. Your class in WoW is Hunter/Warlock/ect. Your class in DDO is Fighter/Bard/ect (at what ever levels you choose.) Talents = enhancements/feats.

[PhoenixFire31]

You keep saying that things "invalidate" your build...
A fighter/pali still retains many advantages over a pure fighter. (saves, immunities, wand useage, ac....)
Fighter capstone does not change the power of that build one bit...
it only helps out a currently inferior build.


I dont oppose it. I think its not neccesary or required, and a waste of development time.

DING DING DING!!!

We have a winner!!! :D

[Deathseeker]

Class levels =/= talents. Your class in WoW is Hunter/Warlock/ect. Your class in DDO is Fighter/Bard/ect (at what ever levels you choose.) Talents = enhancements/feats.


Cool...so WoW now allows you to be half Hunter, half Warlock? If it's apples to apples, then that would be the case...right?

[PhoenixFire31]

Cool...so WoW now allows you to be half Hunter, half Warlock? If it's apples to apples, then that would be the case...right?

Just cause you cannot multiclass in there does not change the fact that your CLASS is still Hunter/Warlock/ect, and in DDO it is Fighter/Ranger/ect.

Words people learn what they mean!

[Tanka]

Class levels =/= talents. Your class in WoW is Hunter/Warlock/ect. Your class in DDO is Fighter/Bard/ect (at what ever levels you choose.) Talents = enhancements/feats.
Your class in WoW gives you three talent sets you can take any number of from. What talents you pick defines you as a character from there. Druids can be Tanks, Healers or Casters. In effect, changing your talents on a Druid can be the same as switching classes in DDO.

[Sabotage]

Class levels =/= talents. Your class in WoW is Hunter/Warlock/ect. Your class in DDO is Fighter/Bard/ect (at what ever levels you choose.) Talents = enhancements/feats.

I'm saying they carry the same importance. Such as Tanka said, it would be a system where a Ftr 15/XXXX would go to Ftr 16, not Sorc 16, hence the base class is still there.

[PhoenixFire31]

Your class in WoW gives you three talent sets you can take any number of from. What talents you pick defines you as a character from there. Druids can be Tanks, Healers or Casters. In effect, changing your talents on a Druid can be the same as switching classes in DDO.

I know, I used to play but all that means is talents are like PrE as those can make your ranger into say a melee fighter (Tempest) or ranged (AA/Deepwood.) Or your Bard into a spell specialist, more fighter type, or song specialist.

[Irongutz2000]

Of course not. In the end, you're still a fighter whether you are 18/2 or 17/3. However, there is quite power difference between the two builds. ...and the x ftr/3 pal was a superior build for quite longer but now all is different because the x/3 build is much more behind.

Also, the inability to change ability scores prevents some of the adaptability. Try Warchanter to CC bard for show.
How is the 3 pali build that much behind? U get 1 ac to aura, fear an diseise immunity, an +1 chars enchanment, I don't see that as being *much* behind a 2 pali build.

[Sabotage]

Your class in WoW gives you three talent sets you can take any number of from. What talents you pick defines you as a character from there. Druids can be Tanks, Healers or Casters. In effect, changing your talents on a Druid can be the same as switching classes in DDO.

Exactly, i also just tested it :eek:

[Deathseeker]

Just cause you cannot multiclass in there does not change the fact that your CLASS is still Hunter/Warlock/ect, and in DDO it is Fighter/Ranger/ect.

Words people learn what they mean!

MEAN is the key word. Class means something very different in terms of respec'ing in WoW than it means in DDO. The main point of this entire issue is a drive to change the multiclassing aspect of your build in DDO.

How can you refute that desire with an example that is irrelevant to the discussion because it doesnt allow multiclassing?

Relevant examples people, learn their use! :D

[Monkey_Archer]

I have never played WOW... maybe some1 could help me out here..
DDO has stats, skills, feats and enhancements --- 2 of which can be respeced.
In WOW are talents the only thing there is? or are there also starting stats?

[Laith]

I have never played WOW... maybe some1 could help me out here..
DDO has stats, skills, feats and enhancements --- 2 of which can be respeced.
In WOW are talents the only thing there is? or are there also starting stats?starting stats are static based on race/class. The factor race plays is minimal though, as everyone of the same class has basically the same base stats. base stats progress at a static rate based only on class.

Any true customization comes from Talents (which equate roughly to feats and skills), equipment, and playstyle.

While starting as a gnome warrior might cause you to start with 5 less strength (don't remember the actual penalty), you still progress as fast as any other warrior, and including equipment your strength will end up in the hundreds/thousands anyway (making the difference something to ignore).

[Sabotage]

I have never played WOW... maybe some1 could help me out here..
DDO has stats, skills, feats and enhancements --- 2 of which can be respeced.
In WOW are talents the only thing there is? or are there also starting stats?

There are no starting stats, only the talents.

[Borror0]

You keep saying that things "invalidate" your build...
A fighter/pali still retains many advantages over a pure fighter. (saves, immunities, wand useage, ac....)
Basic MMO balancing: If other builds become better than the previously better build, that means that this build has gotten worse.

First of all, simply because you could be playing something better.

Most importantly, future encounters will be balanced with the better build in mind and not the weaker builds. As a result, you've gotten worse since you perform less well than you used to. If a build can reach better AC than you, you'll be hit more for example.

Staying at the same place while others are moving up means you're getting worse.

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm saying they carry the same importance. Such as Tanka said, it would be a system where a Ftr 15/XXXX would go to Ftr 16, not Sorc 16, hence the base class is still there.

Not your base class, the class with the most levels.

In DDO, your base class is your one, two or all three classes that you took because once you get one level in a class it opens up the possibilities of new feats, new enhancements and new skills.

So far what I see you and Tanka talking about is PrEs and even one of Tanka's posts really re-enforces that perception.

I would support a one time full skill point, feat and Enhancement respec but not a class respec.

In WoW, if they totally screwed up the complete Hunter class and made it the weakest class overall because of some change, you couldn't just do a respec and become a Fighter or Warlock right? You would have to start a new character and/or hope they fixed the Hunter class. Would that cost them millions of subscriptions?

[PhoenixFire31]

Did you guys ever stop to think that maybe, just MAYBE a full respec isn't even possible because of everything that goes into a character (tomes come to mind as being a pain, when you ate them to determine when you get extra skill points, or became able to take a feat based on STR.)

[Monkey_Archer]

starting stats are static based on race/class. The factor race plays is minimal though, as everyone of the same class has basically the same base stats. base stats progress at a static rate based only on class.

Any true customization comes from Talents (which equate roughly to feats and skills), equipment, and playstyle.

While starting as a gnome warrior might cause you to start with 5 less strength (guessing), you still progress as fast as any other warrior, and including equipment your strength will end up in the hundreds/thousands anyway (making the difference something to ignore).

Then we should all be thankful we play a game that allows such customization :D

[Laith]

Did you guys ever stop to think that maybe, just MAYBE a full respec isn't even possible because of everything that goes into a character (tomes come to mind as being a pain, when you ate them to determine when you get extra skill points, or became able to take a feat based on STR.)that's basically the answer we've been given from turbine.

doesn't mean we should stop wanting it though.
afterall, they gave the same answer when we asked to change how VoN flagging works...

[SableShadow]

Did you guys ever stop to think that maybe, just MAYBE a full respec isn't even possible because of everything that goes into a character (tomes come to mind as being a pain, when you ate them to determine when you get extra skill points, or became able to take a feat based on STR.)

Yes.

We have pages (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=166202).

...and pages...

...and pages...

:D

[Borror0]

Just cause you cannot multiclass in there does not change the fact that your CLASS is still Hunter/Warlock/ect, and in DDO it is Fighter/Ranger/ect.
If you ask most people who rolled a multiclassed build, they'll tell you they rolled a fighter, paladin or whatever their build has most levels of.

In DDO, multiclassing is just a way to let us customize our character with the classes offered to us. Each different multiclass is not the equivalent of a class in other MMOs if only for the reason that other MMOs have the duty to balance each class (nerf the overpowered/buff the underpowered) while DDO developers will never (nor should they) attempt to balance each and every possible level distribution.

[PhoenixFire31]

that's basically the answer we've been given from turbine.

doesn't mean we should stop wanting it though.
afterall, they gave the same answer when we asked to change how VoN flagging works...

Yes, people can want it all they want, and asking for one doesn't make you bad or wrong. However this really isn't the thread for it though is it?


Since I am guilty of going off topic as well, I will throw in my 2pp.

I like the capstone. Totally fits nicely. :D

[Tanka]

Did you guys ever stop to think that maybe, just MAYBE a full respec isn't even possible because of everything that goes into a character (tomes come to mind as being a pain, when you ate them to determine when you get extra skill points, or became able to take a feat based on STR.)
They could do the intelligent thing and apply it equally to everyone at L1. The people who ate a +2 Int tome at L1 will get the same skill points and be fine with it. The people who ate one at L12 will get additional skill points and hardly be gamebreaking.

I mean, what skill in DDO is so unbalanced that every character must have it or be a gimp? ...Oh, wait, UMD. But you already had that, didn't you?

[Monkey_Archer]

Staying at the same place while others are moving up means you're getting worse.

Staying at the top of the hill while others move up does not mean you get worse, only that you may have some company :D

Well, until you pull some boots of levitation.

[Alavatar]

I have never played WOW... maybe some1 could help me out here..
DDO has stats, skills, feats and enhancements --- 2 of which can be respeced.
In WOW are talents the only thing there is? or are there also starting stats?

DDO players can customize the following at level 1:
Race
Class
Attributes
Alignment
Skills
Feats

WoW players can customise the following at level 1:
Race
Class
Attributes? (minimal and ultimately irrelevant customization)

DDO players can customize the following as they level up:
Class
Attributes
Skills
Feats
Enhancements (Action Points)

WoW players can customize the following as they level up:
Attributes? (minimal and ultimately irrelevant) (assuming it is like EQ2 as I have never played WoW)
Talents

DDO limits character customization on the following relationships:
Class is limited by alignment
Feats are limited by attributes and class levels
Enhancements are limited by race, attributes, class levels, and feat selection

WoW limits character customization on the following relationships:
Race and Class are limited by the choice of being Horde or Alliance

As you can see, DDO allows for a greater amount of customization and also has a greater number of limits placed on the customization. As the game changes (i.e. class benefits, PrE added or improved, extra classes, etc) various builds become out of date due to new builds focusing on the strong points of the new changes, but the old builds cannot always account for the changes and ensure they meet all of the pre-reqs of non-existant abilities when they initially make their character. Characters are made in the current version of the game with the current knowledge of the game, and changing the mechanics of the game so some class/combinations are better cannot be accounted for. Therefore, allowing a respec (or even a recreation or rebirth) would be a wise choice to allow for characters to take their previously optimized builds that are now obsolete and re-optimize them for the current version of the game.

[Sabotage]

Not your base class, the class with the most levels.

In DDO, your base class is your one, two or all three classes that you took because once you get one level in a class it opens up the possibilities of new feats, new enhancements and new skills.

So far what I see you and Tanka talking about is PrEs and even one of Tanka's posts really re-enforces that perception.

I would support a one time full skill point, feat and Enhancement respec but not a class respec.

In WoW, if they totally screwed up the complete Hunter class and made it the weakest class overall because of some change, you couldn't just do a respec and become a Fighter or Warlock right? You would have to start a new character and/or hope they fixed the Hunter class. Would that cost them millions of subscriptions?

Many people would quit and have quit. About the respec thing, I have a warrior who used to be specced down Arms (warrior talent tree). After a certain patch the spec became less than desirable, so i switched over to protection (tanking tree).

[Borror0]

I like the capstone. Totally fits nicely. :D
Well, if we drifted onto this topic it does give a bit of information about the capstone itself:

This is a powerful capstone.
This capstone is not powerful enough to generate a debate on how overpowered it is.
Backloaded features like this one are dangerous without class respec, as they do upset some people.

[PhoenixFire31]

They could do the intelligent thing and apply it equally to everyone at L1. The people who ate a +2 Int tome at L1 will get the same skill points and be fine with it. The people who ate one at L12 will get additional skill points and hardly be gamebreaking.

I mean, what skill in DDO is so unbalanced that every character must have it or be a gimp? ...Oh, wait, UMD. But you already had that, didn't you?

Or since a respec would be a gift they didn't NEED to offer you...you loose all tomes. If changing class levels is so darn important then you give up your tomes to do it. Price to be paid (since we know in game money really isn't a big deal.)

[Borror0]

Staying at the top of the hill while others move up does not mean you get worse, only that you may have some company :D
You're making the faulty assumption that you're at the top.

You may have been high but now have been outclassed by others or been thrown down instead of being caught up by others.

[Tanka]

Or since a respec would be a gift they didn't NEED to offer you...you loose all tomes. If changing class levels is so darn important then you give up your tomes to do it. Price to be paid (since we know in game money really isn't a big deal.)
What you're suggesting is not a respec. It's a reroll.

They are functionally different, and I don't have the time to point out how.

I suggest you read the thread requesting respecs posted by Grenfell. Perhaps you'll be enlightened.

[doNotWantYo]

Three little birds sat on my window
and they told me I don't need to worry.
Summer came like cinnamon, so sweeeeet.
Little girls double dutch on the concreeeete.

I'd respec Megan Joe Corkrey right now!!!!
AMIRITE!!!!!

[Laith]

Then we should all be thankful we play a game that allows such customization :Dthat's why i play DDO actually.

Unfortunately, as more and more specializing enhancements (capstones and PrEs) get added, i can only feel that the number of viable build options is shrinking.
It started from the beginning: in D&D, clerics have comparable AC/offense to melees, most melees are on comparable defense/offense footings, and wizards can fight at range. We never really had any of that in DDO.

IMO, customization is being sacrificed at the altar of specialization.
No, it's not the same thing. WoW has specialization. DDO had customization.

[Monkey_Archer]

You're making the faulty assumption that you're at the top.

You may have been high but now have been outclassed by others or been thrown down instead of being caught up by others.

On your example of the fighter/pali....

Currently ftr/pali has more ac, wand usage, better saves, LOH, smites(and immunities for the 3 pali version)
The fighter has 1 more damage with chosen weapon and 1 feat.

Capstone comes out, and all of a sudden the fighter gets a 10% boost to dps.
Hardly makes the pali version invalid or any less effective.

[Borror0]

IMO, customization is being sacrificed at the altar of specialization.
No, it's not the same thing. WoW has specialization. DDO had customization. D&D has more customization.
If done right, it could only be a transitory state. Keeping all that customization as you gain in level is impossible if you base yourself of 3.5 D&D anyway.

I don't think we'll be able to return to the amount of customization we had at cap 10 but that is the nature of 3.5 D&D.

[Borror0]

On your example of the fighter/pali....
Attack the logic, not the example.

PS: You forgot Stalwart Defender III which was my point, by the way.

[Laith]

On your example of the fighter/pali....

Currently ftr/pali has more ac, wand usage, better saves, LOH, smites(and immunities for the 3 pali version)
The fighter has 1 more damage with chosen weapon and 1 feat.

Capstone comes out, and all of a sudden the fighter gets a 10% boost to dps.
Hardly makes the pali version invalid or any less effective.don't forget the third tier of PrEs. any build with 3 or more levels of splash potentially takes a big hit in mod9.

[Yaga_Nub]

Many people would quit and have quit. About the respec thing, I have a warrior who used to be specced down Arms (warrior talent tree). After a certain patch the spec became less than desirable, so i switched over to protection (tanking tree).

And you can do that now with DDO. Your fighter can go Kensai and then if they screw that up, you can redo your enhancements and go Stalwart Defender.

[Borror0]

Your fighter can go Kensai and then if they screw that up, you can redo your enhancements and go Stalwart Defender.
Can you respec Evasion out for Weapon Alacrity? That is how it is different.

[Monkey_Archer]

Attack the logic, not the example.

PS: You forgot Stalwart Defender III which was my point, by the way.

On the example.. 13/3 can still go 14/6 and pick up a paladin PrE (different build, different advantages and disadvantages)

On the logic... Like i said before adding something to an inferior build does not make a superior build any less effective... it only alters your title of "superior build".



DDO developers will never (nor should they) attempt to balance each and every possible level distribution.

[Borror0]

Like i said before adding something to an inferior build does not make a superior build any less effective... it only alters your title of "superior build".
Tanka...

[doNotWantYo]

DUDES, forget about respec, lets push for IMPLEMENTATION!!!!!!!

If you have more then 1800 favor you can just build what you want. Want to start at level 20, BAMN YOUR LEVEL 20. Start at level 5, BAMN YOUR LEVEL 5. You could also pick your gear. SWEEEEEET no more grinding for gear, just pick it from the drop down!!!!!! The customer base is going to be so happy!!!!

Implementation > respec

[Monkey_Archer]

Tanka...

Hmm... 12/6/2 ?

does Defender 3 and capstone really make up for evasion, UMD, saves, immunities and your choice of any pali PRE 1?

I sure dont know.

[oogly54]

Then, please, elaborate as to how that means DDO would lose profits if a full respec was implemented.

Isn't that what I did in my first post? But let me elaborate.

Say you have a acharacter that is not quite spec'ed to be THE best build, but has worked very hard and has this list of items below. You now get a full respec and create the best build possible by the easy button in just a few short days/weeks. You now have the best build with all the gear he could ever hope to gain. What next? What do you do with that character? What motivates you to play that character? Do you run the hound with him? VOD? Queen? etc. Or do you create a new character to build? Now lets assume in three years you have capped 10 characters like so many people have. Now what?

Doesn't allowing a full respec create an attack of the clones? Doesn't everyone respec into the most viable build for X character type? Someone will post the best intimitank, everyone will discuss how to improve it until a build is as good as it can get. (see monster build, or I prefer Ooog Ly) Then everyone and their brother respecs said toon type to that exact perfect build. Sure there will be some that do not follow the mold, but the majority will.

My business case for it being a bad idea is above. My thinking a grind is good stems from WOW (see skill advancement), but the respec can not be compared. The reason WOW and DDO can not be compared is exactly as you have already stated, one has multiclassing and one does not. Apples to Oranges.

As a power gamer who wants the most powerful character possible, I would like a respec for myself. But if anyone can create the best build so easily, then the gap between a good character builder and a bad character builder is eliminated. Borr, for someone who takes pride in your ability to create good builds, I am surprised you would like to open the door for whoever to have just as good a build as you. If everyone can build a toon just as powerful as mine that I thought out well, then is mine really powerful or just like everyone else?

I want to make the distance between someone who tried hard to make a good character and the someone who willy nilly made some build and larger gap, not a zero gap because of respec. Sure you may have worked hard for your obsolete character in the past, and now you would like to make the toon you worked hard on elite again, but it opens the door for every tom, ****, and harry to be just as good as you are. I would rather see you, as a good character builder, re-create the elite build through re-roll.


Originally Posted by Grenfell http://images.ddoforum.turbine.com/images/buttons/red/viewpost.gif (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2082189#post2082189)
Congratulations.

Now go get:

- Chattering Ring
- Seven Fingered Gloves
- Head of Good Fortune
- Dragon boots
- Jerky
- Torc of Prince Raiyum
- Bramblecasters
- VOD goggles
- Tumbleweed
- Levik's set (bracers & shield)
- Fullplate of the Defender
- Dragontouched FP (+5 Resist, +6 Con, Levik's)
- four +3 tomes
- tier 3 GS helm AND tier 3 GS cloak (meaning, Stone of Cleansing has been used)
- Two Mineral-2 Weapons

Let me know how long that takes ya, and how easy that is.

/gren

[Yaga_Nub]

Can you respec Evasion out for Weapon Alacrity? That is how it is different.

I don't see any difference.

And I'm not saying that's right or wrong, I just don't see a difference.

[bobbryan2]

A Bard with 12 CHA? YIKES!

IMO, that just a bad Bard.

Let me guess, min/max?

You think a character has to be min/maxed because one of the stats is neither min nor max?

That's an interesting deduction.

[Justicesar]

Can you imagine how nasty the character build section would be be if respecs were easy??? Builds would be "xyz" for levels 1-7...."abc" for levels 8-12....and "OMG" for levels 13 to 20. And if you did not have the appropriate "abc" build at 8-12.....well you just suck. lol....I would love to be able to move my skill points around a bit though.

[negative]

Can you imagine how nasty the character build section would be be if respecs were easy??? Builds would be "xyz" for levels 1-7...."abc" for levels 8-12....and "OMG" for levels 13 to 20. And if you did not have the appropriate "abc" build at 8-12.....well you just suck. lol....I would love to be able to move my skill points around a bit though.
I don't think anyone is suggesting respecs that could be done that often.

[KatellaZeyn]

Wrong, and amazingly wrong.

1. In every other active MMORPG, nearly every significant post-creation character choice can be change.

2. In PnP D&D, you go grapple with a pet Wight until you get a negative level. Wait 24 hours and you lose a class level permanently, and you can gain some XP and relearn any other class level you wish. Alternatively, read the gigantic PHB2 section on character rebuilding, which goes so far as to allow you to take a different race.

1.) Give detailed examples, please, including the cost of respec (as per my example regarding FFXI Merits in which you can do a complete respec, but having to earn all your merit points all over again, just like rerolling a character in DDO).

2.) I've not looked at the PHB2 before. As for the Wight issue, that's exploiting what's intended to be a negative result, and I don't know a DM who would allow that to be done intentionally. I know I wouldn't.

Now, in PnP D&D, you usually wouldn't be forced to start over from lv1 since you could just bring in an all new character (I've done this myself, replacing a lv3 monk with a lv3 wizard in PnP); but that would be absurd in an MMO. You could decide to use the easiest soloing class to get to level cap, then switch to a highly sought after in end-game class by respeccing. That would be the main issue with allowing full respecs, especially if they made it possible to do so "regularly" like with feat and enhancement respeccing.

[negative]

Say you have a acharacter that is not quite spec'ed to be THE best build, but has worked very hard and has this list of items below. You now get a full respec and create the best build possible by the easy button in just a few short days/weeks. You now have the best build with all the gear he could ever hope to gain. What next? What do you do with that character? What motivates you to play that character? Do you run the hound with him? VOD? Queen? etc. Or do you create a new character to build? Now lets assume in three years you have capped 10 characters like so many people have. Now what?
And what about the casual player who only plays enough to have one capped character. Who it takes months to level up a character. A respec helps those players for more than someone who already has all the best raid gear. The person with the best raid gear plays more than enough to replace all that gear far faster than the casual player can even level up their re-roll. Rerolling isn't nearly as big of a deal to a powergamer as it is to a casual player, and any powergamer worth their salt rerolls most of their characters everytime they become out dated and it doesn't take them all that long to do it. We play the game because we enjoy it, there is a lot more to the game than aquiring digital loot.


As a power gamer who wants the most powerful character possible, I would like a respec for myself. But if anyone can create the best build so easily, then the gap between a good character builder and a bad character builder is eliminated. Borr, for someone who takes pride in your ability to create good builds, I am surprised you would like to open the door for whoever to have just as good a build as you. If everyone can build a toon just as powerful as mine that I thought out well, then is mine really powerful or just like everyone else?

I want to make the distance between someone who tried hard to make a good character and the someone who willy nilly made some build and larger gap, not a zero gap because of respec. Sure you may have worked hard for your obsolete character in the past, and now you would like to make the toon you worked hard on elite again, but it opens the door for every tom, ****, and harry to be just as good as you are. I would rather see you, as a good character builder, re-create the elite build through re-roll.
If character builders took this attitude they wouldn't be posting their builds up on the forums. Character builds WANT everyone to have good builds, they WANT everyone to roll up their build, it is the whole point of posting it. Everyone benefits if everyone has a good build instead of a gimpy build.

I'm sorry that you feel you have to have a better build than someone else to feel good about yourself, and I find your attitude of "you rolled a gimpy build, you suck, deal with it because you don't deserve a decent build" disgusting.

[Alavatar]

2.) I've not looked at the PHB2 before. As for the Wight issue, that's exploiting what's intended to be a negative result, and I don't know a DM who would allow that to be done intentionally. I know I wouldn't.

How would you not allow it?

And, what about a player that just kills himself and gets a Raise Dead cast on him? Technically, the spell Raise Dead requires the person to be raised to loose a character level (or a point of CON if they are L1).

[Alavatar]

And what about the casual player who only plays enough to have one capped character. Who it takes months to level up a character. A respec helps those players for more than someone who already has all the best raid gear. The person with the best raid gear plays more than enough to replace all that gear far faster than the casual player can even level up their re-roll. Rerolling isn't nearly as big of a deal to a powergamer as it is to a casual player, and any powergamer worth their salt rerolls most of their characters everytime they become out dated and it doesn't take them all that long to do it. We play the game because we enjoy it, there is a lot more to the game than aquiring digital loot.


Precisely! I only have four L16 characters. It takes me about 6 months to level a character L16 due to the limited amount of time I have to play. I want to be able to respec my character's attributes and class levels because I don't want to go through the pain and tedious grinding of leveling up yet another character just because Turbine puts in a super sweet thing that I can't get because I don't meet the ability score pre-reqs.

[frugal_gourmet]

How would you not allow it?


Like this: "That's incredibly cheesy. You're never playing in my game again".

Dude, no good DM would allow it. Another great example of why design issues are so easily skirted in pen and paper.

[Alavatar]

Like this: "That's incredibly cheesy. You're never playing in my game again".

Dude, no good DM would allow it. Another great example of why design issues are so easily skirted in pen and paper.

But, you would allow a character to kill themselves and get Raised therefore loosing a level? Then gaining the experience to level in something else? Or being raised multiple times to loose several levels?

Edit: I consider myself to be a decent DM. Because I don't want players (specifically new players) to feel penalized for making a mistake in leveling or creating their character I allow a fluid system. As long as they maintain their character concept and they don't do anything radical I allow the players to change their attributes and class levels all they want as long as it is done either at the beginning of the game session or the end of the session.

Edit2: And statements like yours don't make for a very popular DM... There are various ways you could house rule the problem such as making the Neg Level from a wight double after 24 hours instead of permanent level loss, or CON damage, or a multitude of other ways. I don't know about you, but I want everyone to have fun when I DM. That's my goal, to facilitate fun. If the players are not having fun, or I am not having fun, then something needs to change.

[frugal_gourmet]

But, you would allow a character to kill themselves and get Raised therefore loosing a level? Then gaining the experience to level in something else? Or being raised multiple times to loose several levels?

Depends on what you mean by this. Did the character take a level he now regrets? We can work that out. I like to be flexible. That's the beauty of pen and paper.

Of course I wouldn't allow any obvious exploitation. Would you? If I knew a character was *intentionally* dying to exploit a rule loophoole, he'd most likely have a stern talking to. He definitely wouldn't get extra experience either.


Edit: I consider myself to be a decent DM. Because I don't want players (specifically new players) to feel penalized for making a mistake in leveling or creating their character I allow a fluid system. As long as they maintain their character concept and they don't do anything radical I allow the players to change their attributes and class levels all they want as long as it is done either at the beginning of the game session or the end of the session.

I don't know about perpetual respec, but yeah. Exactly. I don't want unhappy players who just goofed up something.

[maddmatt70]

Isn't that what I did in my first post? But let me elaborate.

Say you have a acharacter that is not quite spec'ed to be THE best build, but has worked very hard and has this list of items below. You now get a full respec and create the best build possible by the easy button in just a few short days/weeks. You now have the best build with all the gear he could ever hope to gain. What next? What do you do with that character? What motivates you to play that character? Do you run the hound with him? VOD? Queen? etc. Or do you create a new character to build? Now lets assume in three years you have capped 10 characters like so many people have. Now what?

Doesn't allowing a full respec create an attack of the clones? Doesn't everyone respec into the most viable build for X character type? Someone will post the best intimitank, everyone will discuss how to improve it until a build is as good as it can get. (see monster build, or I prefer Ooog Ly) Then everyone and their brother respecs said toon type to that exact perfect build. Sure there will be some that do not follow the mold, but the majority will.

My business case for it being a bad idea is above. My thinking a grind is good stems from WOW (see skill advancement), but the respec can not be compared. The reason WOW and DDO can not be compared is exactly as you have already stated, one has multiclassing and one does not. Apples to Oranges.

As a power gamer who wants the most powerful character possible, I would like a respec for myself. But if anyone can create the best build so easily, then the gap between a good character builder and a bad character builder is eliminated. Borr, for someone who takes pride in your ability to create good builds, I am surprised you would like to open the door for whoever to have just as good a build as you. If everyone can build a toon just as powerful as mine that I thought out well, then is mine really powerful or just like everyone else?

I want to make the distance between someone who tried hard to make a good character and the someone who willy nilly made some build and larger gap, not a zero gap because of respec. Sure you may have worked hard for your obsolete character in the past, and now you would like to make the toon you worked hard on elite again, but it opens the door for every tom, ****, and harry to be just as good as you are. I would rather see you, as a good character builder, re-create the elite build through re-roll.

Honestly Ooogly this comes totally from the powergamer perspective. The casual gamer who pays the bills so to speak might just choose to quit the game because their only build is getting gimped every other week. Without casual gamers there is no ddo..

[Quanefel]

Precisely! I only have four L16 characters. It takes me about 6 months to level a character L16 due to the limited amount of time I have to play. I want to be able to respec my character's attributes and class levels because I don't want to go through the pain and tedious grinding of leveling up yet another character just because Turbine puts in a super sweet thing that I can't get because I don't meet the ability score pre-reqs.



You do know that no one "has" to have all the super sweet things Turbines puts out? I think one problem people are having is this belief that have to have everything and they have to have it, right now. If leveling up characters is a pain and tedious, how in the world do people even bother with making more than one character? Why is that the case?

People seem not to have an issue with starting a fresh new character from scratch but all of a sudden if they are forced to reroll, now that same exact process becomes tedious and painful? If it is the case, maybe people should avoid rolling up more than one character to avoid the "pain" of leveling up?

[Alavatar]

You do know that no one "has" to have all the super sweet things Turbines puts out? I think one problem people are having is this belief that have to have everything and they have to have it, right now. If leveling up characters is a pain and tedious, how in the world do people even bother with making more than one character? Why is that the case?

Granted, when the super sweet thing first comes out the game is not balanced for it. But as new content is released after the fact the development teams seem to balance the quest based on the most commonly used gear/class/levels/enhancements/etc. Therefore, when that content comes out the super sweet things still isn't "required", but it makes life a heck of a lot easier.


People seem not to have an issue with starting a fresh new character from scratch but all of a sudden if they are forced to reroll, now that same exact process becomes tedious and painful? If it is the case, maybe people should avoid rolling up more than one character to avoid the "pain" of leveling up?

Leveling isn't a pain to some people. But, to those of us that take a long time to level up a character when we finally get a character where we think we can participate in the high end Elite content and the game changes so that our old way of thinking is obsolete leveling up again is does not sound like fun.

For example, my first high level character is a sorcerer with a base DEX of 16, CON 10 and an INT 14. Back when the level cap was L10 those stats were fine and dandy, but now the game has progressed to such a degree that I would have been better served dumping INT and DEX and getting as much CON. Granted, I could reroll my sorc, but he has the most RAID gear of my characters and has used the most tomes. I don't have 40+ hours a week to level him back up to 16 in two weeks. I don't even have 5 hours a week to play the game! But, I still want that character to be useful in the end game content so what options do I have?

[Alavatar]

Of course I wouldn't allow any obvious exploitation. Would you? If I knew a character was *intentionally* dying to exploit a rule loophoole, he'd most likely have a stern talking to. He definitely wouldn't get extra experience either.

If I didn't like it I would make a house rule, not ban the person outright. And you are right; he sure wouldn't get good sportsman xp for trying to use a loophole, if you consider that a loophole... Personally, I would give that specific person extra XP for cleverly solving his problem within the bounds of the Spirit of the Rules. IMO.

[Tanka]

Tanka...
You're a big boy, Bor. You can make your own points. :p

[Reisz]

Here's a suggestion, every time you cap a toon you are allowed to create a new one that is half the level cap. Or maybe it could be a favor reward.

It would be similar to skipping Korthos island once you have completed it with a different character.

or...

Perhaps a favor reward could be a permanent 15% xp bonus applied to your account.

[oogly54]

Honestly Ooogly this comes totally from the powergamer perspective. The casual gamer who pays the bills so to speak might just choose to quit the game because their only build is getting gimped every other week. Without casual gamers there is no ddo..

I work full time+, usually about 50 hours a week. I play about 20 hours a week. So I know what it is like "to pay the bills". The people screaming for a respec play more and forum more than me by a long shot. So as you say it is for the casual, you yourself are NOT a causal and neither are any of you that are asking for this.

And that is only part of my point. The other, which makes it a bad business decision and the attack of the clones issue is still quit valid no matter how much time you do or do not play.

[Emili]

You do know that no one "has" to have all the super sweet things Turbines puts out? I think one problem people are having is this belief that have to have everything and they have to have it, right now. If leveling up characters is a pain and tedious, how in the world do people even bother with making more than one character? Why is that the case?

People seem not to have an issue with starting a fresh new character from scratch but all of a sudden if they are forced to reroll, now that same exact process becomes tedious and painful? If it is the case, maybe people should avoid rolling up more than one character to avoid the "pain" of leveling up?


The difference is a brand new character is something different entirely... another race and class typically... Whereas the reroll is much the same but tweaked for the new advantages. it is not the leveling which is the deterent either... It is in most cases the favor, the and items and the grind in replenishing those which is. We can level a single character within 24 hours of actual game play to cap. Rebuilding favor and grinding raids for replacing items can lead to 10-100 times more time then capping the character. ie.) how many days will it take to replace armour of the defender and vod goggles? Answer: 6 to 120 days.

[Alavatar]

The difference is a brand new character is something different entirely... another race and class typically... Whereas the reroll is much the same but tweaked for the new advantages. it is not the leveling which is the deterent either... It is in most cases the favor, the and items and the grind in replenishing those which is. We can level a single character within 24 hours of actual game play to cap. Rebuilding favor and grinding raids for replacing items can lead to 10-100 times more time then capping the character. ie.) how many days will it take to replace armour of the defender and vod goggles? Answer: 6 to 120 days.


24 hours?!?! How do you do that? Most of my problems is finding a group so I spend countless hours LFG or soloing content until I find a group that will take me. (And yes, I do watch the LFM ;) )

[oogly54]

I'm sorry that you feel you have to have a better build than someone else to feel good about yourself, and I find your attitude of "you rolled a gimpy build, you suck, deal with it because you don't deserve a decent build" disgusting.

Thanks for making this a personal attack, as if what you are saying here are my sentiments. Quoting as if that is what I said. Nothing you say here was portayed as such by my comments. FWIW, I have several toons that are gimped that a re-roll would help immensly.

[oogly54]

24 hours?!?! How do you do that? Most of my problems is finding a group so I spend countless hours LFG or soloing content until I find a group that will take me. (And yes, I do watch the LFM ;) )

During the +50% XP, I had the rare occasion of my wife and son being out of town and I had the weekend to myself. I played for 12 hours. I leveled a new character to level 8 in those 12 hours. Level 8, 9, and 10 are a bit tough to level, but as sson as you can hit GH regularly you are capped in no time. I have a guildee that leveled to 16 cap in 4 days, total hours I am not sure.

[Alavatar]

During the +50% XP, I had the rare occasion of my wife and son being out of town and I had the weekend to myself. I played for 12 hours. I leveled a new character to level 8 in those 12 hours. Level 8, 9, and 10 are a bit tough to level, but as sson as you can hit GH regularly you are capped in no time. I have a guildee that leveled to 16 cap in 4 days, total hours I am not sure.

Unfortunately, I don't have 12 hours a weekend to do that. :( I also must be doing something wrong because I played a few hours each day (when my wife let me) of the +25% XP on my then L12 rogue and I was only able to get to L13. I logged on as my rogue for a few hours during the +50% xp and I ran Madstone 3 times, that was it.

I guess I just suck at leveling and will forever be doomed to never be able to fix my characters as the game changes. :(

Edit: And my brother will also be doomed to a worse fate since he has even less time then me now that he has a new child.

[Monkey_Archer]

24 hours?!?! How do you do that? Most of my problems is finding a group so I spend countless hours LFG or soloing content until I find a group that will take me. (And yes, I do watch the LFM ;) )

I think the first monk on thelanis to hit 16 did it in 2-3 days...
24, not sure... maybe with 5 other guildies all leveling at the same time, hitting all the max xp quests during a +50 xp event.

[Quanefel]

The difference is a brand new character is something different entirely... another race and class typically... Whereas the reroll is much the same but tweaked for the new advantages. it is not the leveling which is the deterent either... It is in most cases the favor, the and items and the grind in replenishing those which is. We can level a single character within 24 hours of actual game play to cap. Rebuilding favor and grinding raids for replacing items can lead to 10-100 times more time then capping the character. ie.) how many days will it take to replace armour of the defender and vod goggles? Answer: 6 to 120 days.


In them rolling up a new character, they still have the options to tweak out their new characters just as a fresh reroll of an older character would have also. In fact, in leveling or rerolling/releveling is much easier now that it was back in the day. Maybe even too easy.

Also, look at favor and raid gear. In the past, it was a mark of pride to get that 1750 favor because how hard it was to do. Now, its a joke. It is entirely too easy to get favor it is almost meaningless now. You say it is 10-100 times harder, I say it is the opposite. It is 10-100 easier.

The same with raid gear. In the past, it was much harder to get raid gear for two reasons at least. One was the flawed token system that favored those who lead the raid. You were lucky to see any raid gear fall your way. Another is the fact that so many players have most, if not all the raid gear they need they are simply passing off all their raid gear to whoever wants to roll for it. So, in the past it was harder to get raid gear. Now it is such a joke that people are almost begging someone to take the raid gear in chests now.

In my mind, rerolling is not as bad as people think it is now. Maybe in the past it was a big deal but people need to acknowledge how things are now with leveling, getting favor and getting raid gear. The difference with all this now and in the past is great. To me, it is not as painful as people make it out to be.

[Mhykke]

The same with raid gear. In the past, it was much harder to get raid gear for two reasons at least. One was the flawed token system that favored those who lead the raid. You were lucky to see any raid gear fall your way. Another is the fact that so many players have most, if not all the raid gear they need they are simply passing off all their raid gear to whoever wants to roll for it. So, in the past it was harder to get raid gear. Now it is such a joke that people are almost begging someone to take the raid gear in chests now.


Depends on the raid gear. I'd argue that some gear, for old raids for example, is harder to get.

Back when the cap was 12, or even 14, there were many more groups for the titan. Now, not so much, and that's if you can even find a pug group. And if you do, chances are you have 12 people going after the same gear.

[maddmatt70]

I work full time+, usually about 50 hours a week. I play about 20 hours a week. So I know what it is like "to pay the bills". The people screaming for a respec play more and forum more than me by a long shot. So as you say it is for the casual, you yourself are NOT a causal and neither are any of you that are asking for this.

And that is only part of my point. The other, which makes it a bad business decision and the attack of the clones issue is still quit valid no matter how much time you do or do not play.

Woah. Was pointing out casual players make up a high % of ddo subscribers (might be 85%+) if you run them out of town say goodbye to ddo.

[Quanefel]

Depends on the raid gear. I'd argue that some gear, for old raids for example, is harder to get.

Back when the cap was 12, or even 14, there were many more groups for the titan. Now, not so much, and that's if you can even find a pug group. And if you do, chances are you have 12 people going after the same gear.

I think all of that really comes down to one thing really, those old raid items have become obsolete. Why run a raid to get raid gear that is worthless with all the new, better raid gear? True, there are some old raids that might have 1 or 2 items that "might" still be desired. Depending on the person or build but generally, most of that old raid gear is junk.

So of course you will see less pug groups running those old raids. If anything, it makes the case for the Dev's to add new or change out old raid gear in the raids that are not ran as much now to help bring back our love of those old raids. As of now though, the old raids will fall to the side in favor of the newer raids that might come out.

I understand the idea that even those raids will probably have 11 other people going after those rare, hard to get older raid items but if anything, it is much easier now with the 20th run system in place. Does it make our chances go up by leaps and bounds? No, but it does increase our odds of getting it IF we put the time and effort into it.

[Mhykke]

I think all of that really comes down to one thing really, those old raid items have become obsolete. Why run a raid to get raid gear that is worthless with all the new, better raid gear? True, there are some old raids that might have 1 or 2 items that "might" still be desired. Depending on the person or build but generally, most of that old raid gear is junk.

So of course you will see less pug groups running those old raids. If anything, it makes the case for the Dev's to add new or change out old raid gear in the raids that are not ran as much now to help bring back our love of those old raids. As of now though, the old raids will fall to the side in favor of the newer raids that might come out.

I understand the idea that even those raids will probably have 11 other people going after those rare, hard to get older raid items but if anything, it is much easier now with the 20th run system in place. Does it make our chances go up by leaps and bounds? No, but it does increase our odds of getting it IF we put the time and effort into it.

Yes, you're right, a lot of old raid gear is junk. But there is still some old raid gear that's very, very good (titan belt, as mentioned). This means that if characters are in there, they're going to be in there for the same loot as everyone else is, making that loot harder to get. More people after the same things, and nothing else.

As for the 20th completion thing, that takes about 2 months of running the raid every 3 days. Not an insignificant number. And that's far from a certainty.

[oogly54]

Woah. Was pointing out casual players make up a high % of ddo subscribers (might be 85%+) if you run them out of town say goodbye to ddo.
By NOT making a change you do not run anyone out of town. Those 85% are not the ones here asking for a respec.

[Tanka]

By NOT making a change you do not run anyone out of town.
Wrong.

[bobbryan2]

By NOT making a change you do not run anyone out of town. Those 85% are not the ones here asking for a respec.

Epic fail

[maddmatt70]

By NOT making a change you do not run anyone out of town.

Fact: They are making substantial changes to ddo when the level cap goes up to 20 which will affect and harm alot of builds which were successful in the past.

Fact: Casual players don't have the time to constantly reroll and relevel characters.

Fact: Casual players make up a high % of the ddo subscriber base.

Fact: There currently is no mechanism to respec in ddo unlike the vast majority of mmos.

Conclusion: ?...

[Hadrian]

If the problem is the aquisition of rare gear, what if you were allowed to "respec" by completely rerolling the character while keeping all of the bound items that he had?

You could select any race/class you wish, and completely remake the character as if you were rerolling normally. The bound items that he had before you reset him go into a special bank tab that can only be taken from, and never added to. You remove an item from it and it becomes bound to you again.

This would take some development time, but probably far less than a full respec system. It would also impose its own time limitations on completely redoing a character.

[Alavatar]

Fact: They are making substantial changes to ddo when the level cap goes up to 20 which will affect and harm alot of builds which were successful in the past.

Fact: Casual players don't have the time to constantly reroll and relevel characters.

Fact: Casual players make up a high % of the ddo subscriber base.

Fact: There currently is no mechanism to respec in ddo unlike the vast majority of mmos.

Conclusion: ?...

Don't forget that most players don't check the forums so they don't even know what is coming down the pipe! Many players are ignorant to the changes and might have leveled their newest character differently had they known what is in the works.

[Alavatar]

If the problem is the aquisition of rare gear, what if you were allowed to "respec" by completely rerolling the character while keeping all of the bound items that he had?

You could select any race/class you wish, and completely remake the character as if you were rerolling normally. The bound items that he had before you reset him go into a special bank tab that can only be taken from, and never added to. You remove an item from it and it becomes bound to you again.

This would take some development time, but probably far less than a full respec system. It would also impose its own time limitations on completely redoing a character.

I made a similar suggestion in another thread. Personally, I can get behind this idea because I think it to be a good compromise. While I would have to re-level my sorc at least I would be able to keep all of his bound gear that I don't want to grind for again. :)

[Mhykke]

If the problem is the aquisition of rare gear, what if you were allowed to "respec" by completely rerolling the character while keeping all of the bound items that he had?

You could select any race/class you wish, and completely remake the character as if you were rerolling normally. The bound items that he had before you reset him go into a special bank tab that can only be taken from, and never added to. You remove an item from it and it becomes bound to you again.

This would take some development time, but probably far less than a full respec system. It would also impose its own time limitations on completely redoing a character.

Yep, that has been brought up, and seems like a fair compromise b/w not having a respec option and having one. There are some criticisms, like it'd be harder for casuals to recap, but there has been support of your idea.

[KatellaZeyn]

A system that allows you to change on a whim based on who's in your group. Which is obviously what is least desirable in an MMO.

That's how FFXI is, but then, each actual "class" in FFXI has a pretty rigid structure, no choice in what abilities and such it gains as it levels. You can switch around main and sub jobs pretty much at will, which often leads to situations like this:

Player1: Hey, we're heading up to sky to farm.
Player2: Cool. What job should I come as? WAR, PLD, MNK?
Player1: WAR, we've already got two PLDs and a NIN.
Player2: /dnc, /nin, /thf, /sam?
Player1: /sam, we have plenty of healers.



It's relatively simple for a Bard to switch PrEs, but to effectively become a Warchanter (one that actually wades into melee, mind you) is another point entirely.

In WoW, you talk to your trainer, pay some gold and re-choose all of your talents. Switch out your gear and you're as good (numerically speaking) as someone that has been playing that build since creation.

It allows the Devs to make more widesweeping changes that need to be made without fearing that they'll utterly destroy certain characters.

For some classes in DDO, it may not be quite as simple as changing PrEs. For others, it is. I'm fairly certain that stat arrangement won't be that significant in switching from Kensai to Stalwart Defender (though I can't remember if Combat Expertise was needed for Stalwart Defender). Thief-Acrobat/Assassin/Mechanic are like that as well. The PrE for Sorcerer look to be just elemental focus, while the ability score stats will be the same for all.

The key difference in this between DDO and other MMOs is that DDO lets you design your starting ability scores: STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, and CHA. I don't remember any other MMO doing that, and this is why certain types of easy respeccing that exist in the game already have less of an impact than the same respeccing in other games.

[oogly54]

Epic fail
Lol, you really think if there is not a respec that all the casual players are going to leave the game? Please, there has never been a respec and there have been many, many, many changes to this game since the release in yet, nobody has ever said they were leaving becasue there wasnt a respec. Remeber when Paladins were THE tank in the game?

Just becasue the power gamers and power forumites want a respec does NOT mean casuals will leave if there isnt one.

BTW what is the definition of a casual player? Does a casual player have all the raid gear that everyone here is so worried about? I doubt it. The respec is for those that have played a ton and dont want to lose the gear they have amassed which casuals never had in the first place.

[Mhykke]

Lol, you really think if there is not a respec that all the casual players are going to leave the game? Please, there has never been a respec and there have been many, many, many changes to this game since the release in yet, nobody has ever said they were leaving becasue there wasnt a respec. Remeber when Paladins were THE tank in the game?.

No, not having a respec won't cause people to leave the game. Not having a respec, in addition to rule changes/changes to the game, might cause some to leave. We know that DDO isn't the most successful MMO out there. So we could probably guess that even losing "some" players isn't desirable for DDO, considering they don't have a huge subscriber base.

Then it becomes a question as to how often, and to what degree, there are rule changes in the game to cause people to leave. But in relation to this, it'd probably be freeing for the devs to have a respec in the game. That way, they could modify the game as to how they believe works best, and not worry about alienating as many people b/c at least people could have a respec mechanism to respond to those game changes.




Just becasue the power gamers and power forumites want a respec does NOT mean casuals will leave if there isnt one.

BTW what is the definition of a casual player? Does a casual player have all the raid gear that everyone here is so worried about? I doubt it. The respec is for those that have played a ton and dont want to lose the gear they have amassed which casuals never had in the first place.

I've addressed this before. Not having respecs affects people differently. It affects the "power gamers" b/c of the loot mainly. It affects the "casuals" b/c they might not want to relevel a character that took them a while to level. I wouldn't say the respec is for anyone but those that feel changes to the rules in the middle of a game is unfair, and to reduce that unfairness, it'd be nice to have a way to be able to respond to those changes.

[Borror0]

You're a big boy, Bor. You can make your own points. :p
True, but you have better picture than I do.

[bobbryan2]

Lol, you really think if there is not a respec that all the casual players are going to leave the game? Please, there has never been a respec and there have been many, many, many changes to this game since the release in yet, nobody has ever said they were leaving becasue there wasnt a respec.

Yes there have been.

Plenty of people have left the game because Turbine broke their character and they didn't want to have to rebuild him just to be the same as he was before.

I'm not saying people would and will leave in droves... but... people do leave for this very reason.

[Tanka]

True, but you have better picture than I do.
GIS: facepalm

[Hadrian]

Yep, that has been brought up, and seems like a fair compromise b/w not having a respec option and having one. There are some criticisms, like it'd be harder for casuals to recap, but there has been support of your idea.

There isn't going to be a perfect solution. It's going to be hard for a more casual player to recap, but they are the least likely to care or notice if their build is suddenly 0.025% below optimal. They probably didn't really plan out their build to the level where they will want to reroll unless some amazingly drastic change hits them.

The full absolute respec option sounds like a nightmare to code and balance to avoid exploits. A reroll in which you keep your gear is much less likely to cause problems because there will be no unexpected bugs that pop up and allow you to possibly cause a change in your character that isn't possible from a normal creation.

Part of the question is if you'd like to see this as a possible feature in mod 10 or mod 15.

[Grenfell]

How did you feel when you pulled/acquired each of those items? Were you sad the search was over? Were you mad it took so long? Or did you feel a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction? Accomplishment and Satisfaction is my bet. NOW YOU'LL GET TO EXPERIENCE THAT FEELING OVER AGAIN!!!! WOOOOOOOT!!!!!!

I'm guessing you don't really understand MMO's or MMO players all that well.

By your logic, when a character hits lvl cap, Turbine should auto-delete that character and all the gear on him, so the player can "experience the joy all over again".

I don't even understand what's in it for you (and others) to argue AGAINST respec. I've clearly explained the reasons why some way of respec (details can be argued) after three years of massive changes to underlying game mechanics is necessary. The benefits to the veterans would be large, and very appreciated.

What benefits are you hoping to gain by NOT having respec? I don't get it.

/gren

[Grenfell]

Of all the anti-respec responses, at least Oogly's makes some points. They happen to be wrong, but they're logical points.

First, grind = good for MMO's as a business.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this is true.

The grind in DDO is not for xp, unlike other MMO's in the market (such as WOW), but for gear. Just about any semi-power gamer can cap a toon in about a week's time.

If encouraging grind alone were good business practices, then that strongly argues for reducing droprate on raidloot significantly and getting rid of the 20th/40th/etc. choose-your-rewards system we currently have in place. If raidloot on elite only dropped 0.01% of the time instead of the (supposedly) 25% chance per participant, this would encourage significantly more grinding than any respec option possible.

Trouble is, this logic is fallacious. The grind has to offer up rewards sufficient to justify the grind. Meaning, people are willing to grind away because they believe that the reward is (a) achievable, and (b) worthwhile. And the amount of work involved has to be commensurate with the incentive offered. Think why so few people run Dragon now except as midlevels trying to get House K favor. The rewards aren't worth the risk.

In fact, the more grindelicious a MMO becomes, the less attractive it becomes to players, who get bored, and end up leaving the game for the next bright shiny thing.

Therefore, grinding in and of itself is not good for business.

Second, most of the anti-respec crowd fails to acknowledge the psychology of the MMO gamer. Who knows why this is, but every MMO gamer wants to "improve his character". Even if that improvement is marginal, the pursuit of improvement is why people play MMO's.

If some raid -- say VOD on Elite -- offered a +8 Str item as rare drop raidloot, powergamers would be farming the heck out of that raid. The benefit of +2 Str is only +1 to hit and damage. Yet, you and I know that powergamers would be after that item to take their Str from 34 to 36.

Constantly seeking improvement is essential to the appeal of MMO's.

The flipside/darkside of this constant need to strive for "perfection" if you will is that MMO gamers don't want to be "outclassed" in a way they can't overcome. Even if their character is improving, if by the standards of the other characters in the game, their toon is "gimp", then motivation to keep playing is simply less.

This principle is easy to picture: Imagine if every mob in DDO became an Air Elemental. Every single melee character -- no matter how "ubah" -- would be insta-gimped. Folks hate that.

Third, people get emotionally attached to certain characters. Who knows why that is? But it happens. Maybe it's their first 32-pt character. Maybe it's the guy they broke 1750 with first. Maybe it's the first one to complete Cult of Six on Elite back in the day. Who knows?

But people get attached, and when those characters become "gimped" by systemic changes to the game that they had no way of anticipating, taking into account, and so forth... folks get upset. It's natural, and it happens all the time.

Now, combine all three and you've got a toxic mix.

Some guy has a beloved toon who has all this raidloot, all this effort that's been invested in it. A systemic change in the gameplay or ruleset that could not have been anticipated or calculated for comes into play, making it impossible that this beloved toon could ever be "perfected" (however you define that term). Improving that character -- or trying to -- seems irrational because as per the terms of the game system, that character will always be gimped.

Grinding all over again in THIS situation is not good. It's not "good for business" because people focus on what they've lost rather than what they'll gain.

Here's a pretty simple way to illustrate my points:


If Turbine's servers all got hit with some completely malicious virus, and all of the character data is wiped, and all of the backups corrupted, forcing everyone in DDO to start over at lvl 1, with 0 favor... how many people would stay subscribers?

If Oogly and some of the other non-respec people are right about the grind being good for business, and how rerolling is the joy of it all, and how people don't get invested in particular characters, and so on, then the answer to this hypo should be "Most of them."

I think it's fairly incontrovertible that the population of DDO would absolutely plummet were such a disaster to strike. We might be lucky to see 10% return.

There have simply been too many sweeping changes, none of which could have been foreseen, or planned for, over the past three years. Furthermore, the track record of DDO suggests that we're likely to have more sweeping changes in the years ahead.

Balanced against that, talking about "I want a gap between my killer build and the **** builds" seems like ignoring a tsunami to focus on a water leak.

/gren

[negative]

There isn't going to be a perfect solution. It's going to be hard for a more casual player to recap, but they are the least likely to care or notice if their build is suddenly 0.025% below optimal. They probably didn't really plan out their build to the level where they will want to reroll unless some amazingly drastic change hits them.
A few examples I can think off the top of my head are mostly related to the escalation of mobs more than a change in the game system, but they are just as valid examples.

Casual players from pre-Mod3 who still have that SnB fighter that doesn't have enough Int to get combat expertise, but doesn't have enough STR to really excel at THF, and doesn't have enough dex to fill out the armor mastery enhancements or switch to TWF. Oh and they have a single level or ranger or maybe barbarian for some odd reason that they can't really remember.

Or heck, any AC fighter that can't get the 22 dex (more if dwarf) needed to fill out SDIII w/ DT plate.

A Drow pally with 6 starting con. Worked surprisingly well until mod 6ish. Not neccesarrly reroll worthy now, but worth considering.

Arcanes that started with more dex than con.

I could go on, but I think the first fighter example is the strongest.


BTW what is the definition of a casual player? Does a casual player have all the raid gear that everyone here is so worried about? I doubt it. The respec is for those that have played a ton and dont want to lose the gear they have amassed which casuals never had in the first place.
The casual player is the one with a single piece of raid loot, and maybe a +2 favor tome, and a few +1 tomes that decides not to reroll because of how much of an investment that is to them. Even though they know they have a fairly gimped character and they want to reroll.

[oogly54]

The casual player is the one with a single piece of raid loot, and maybe a +2 favor tome, and a few +1 tomes that decides not to reroll because of how much of an investment that is to them. Even though they know they have a fairly gimped character and they want to reroll.

So would you and all the other power gamers asking for a respec be ok with it if it only allowed for you to maintian ONE item or tome? Becasue we are trying to say this is for the casual gamer. This is what would level the feild for them the most.

[Mhykke]

So would you and all the other power gamers asking for a respec be ok with it if it only allowed for you to maintian ONE item or tome? Becasue we are trying to say this is for the casual gamer. This is what would level the feild for them the most.

Actually, I haven't been saying this is just for the casual gamer. I've been saying it's an issue of fairness that affects all, albeit differently. Can you please point out where someone made the argument that respecs are "only" for the casual gamer?

I mean, I've seen people say that casual gamers also benefit, when responding to people saying that respecs are only for powergamers.

So I'd really like to see someone who said respecs are just for casuals, to the exclusion of others. I'd be interested in the reasoning. Where's a post I can look to?

[oogly54]

Of all the anti-respec responses, at least Oogly's makes some points. They happen to be wrong, but they're logical points.

First, grind = good for MMO's as a business.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that this is true.

The grind in DDO is not for xp, unlike other MMO's in the market (such as WOW), but for gear. Just about any semi-power gamer can cap a toon in about a week's time.

If encouraging grind alone were good business practices, then that strongly argues for reducing droprate on raidloot significantly and getting rid of the 20th/40th/etc. choose-your-rewards system we currently have in place. If raidloot on elite only dropped 0.01% of the time instead of the (supposedly) 25% chance per participant, this would encourage significantly more grinding than any respec option possible.

Trouble is, this logic is fallacious. The grind has to offer up rewards sufficient to justify the grind. Meaning, people are willing to grind away because they believe that the reward is (a) achievable, and (b) worthwhile. And the amount of work involved has to be commensurate with the incentive offered. Think why so few people run Dragon now except as midlevels trying to get House K favor. The rewards aren't worth the risk.

In fact, the more grindelicious a MMO becomes, the less attractive it becomes to players, who get bored, and end up leaving the game for the next bright shiny thing.

Therefore, grinding in and of itself is not good for business.

Second, most of the anti-respec crowd fails to acknowledge the psychology of the MMO gamer. Who knows why this is, but every MMO gamer wants to "improve his character". Even if that improvement is marginal, the pursuit of improvement is why people play MMO's.

If some raid -- say VOD on Elite -- offered a +8 Str item as rare drop raidloot, powergamers would be farming the heck out of that raid. The benefit of +2 Str is only +1 to hit and damage. Yet, you and I know that powergamers would be after that item to take their Str from 34 to 36.

Constantly seeking improvement is essential to the appeal of MMO's.

The flipside/darkside of this constant need to strive for "perfection" if you will is that MMO gamers don't want to be "outclassed" in a way they can't overcome. Even if their character is improving, if by the standards of the other characters in the game, their toon is "gimp", then motivation to keep playing is simply less.

This principle is easy to picture: Imagine if every mob in DDO became an Air Elemental. Every single melee character -- no matter how "ubah" -- would be insta-gimped. Folks hate that.

Third, people get emotionally attached to certain characters. Who knows why that is? But it happens. Maybe it's their first 32-pt character. Maybe it's the guy they broke 1750 with first. Maybe it's the first one to complete Cult of Six on Elite back in the day. Who knows?

But people get attached, and when those characters become "gimped" by systemic changes to the game that they had no way of anticipating, taking into account, and so forth... folks get upset. It's natural, and it happens all the time.

Now, combine all three and you've got a toxic mix.

Some guy has a beloved toon who has all this raidloot, all this effort that's been invested in it. A systemic change in the gameplay or ruleset that could not have been anticipated or calculated for comes into play, making it impossible that this beloved toon could ever be "perfected" (however you define that term). Improving that character -- or trying to -- seems irrational because as per the terms of the game system, that character will always be gimped.

Grinding all over again in THIS situation is not good. It's not "good for business" because people focus on what they've lost rather than what they'll gain.

Here's a pretty simple way to illustrate my points:

If Turbine's servers all got hit with some completely malicious virus, and all of the character data is wiped, and all of the backups corrupted, forcing everyone in DDO to start over at lvl 1, with 0 favor... how many people would stay subscribers?
If Oogly and some of the other non-respec people are right about the grind being good for business, and how rerolling is the joy of it all, and how people don't get invested in particular characters, and so on, then the answer to this hypo should be "Most of them."

I think it's fairly incontrovertible that the population of DDO would absolutely plummet were such a disaster to strike. We might be lucky to see 10% return.

There have simply been too many sweeping changes, none of which could have been foreseen, or planned for, over the past three years. Furthermore, the track record of DDO suggests that we're likely to have more sweeping changes in the years ahead.

Balanced against that, talking about "I want a gap between my killer build and the **** builds" seems like ignoring a tsunami to focus on a water leak.


/gren

This entire post explains why this is a respec for power gamers wanting to keep all the uber gear they have colected and not for the casual gamer to make a viable build.

Gren you are confusing good for business with good for the gamer. Somethings that are good for business are not fun for the gamer. If there is absoluting nothing hard to get, the unltimate non grinding game, we all would have everythign in no time and quit do to bordem. WE MUST HAVE GRINDING AS MUCH AS WE ALL HATE IT. WOW has tons of grind in it and has 10 million subs.

Like I stated before, the list of uber items that you list earlier in this thread are the reasons respec is wanted. What motavation do you have to run your respeced character after it is respeced to THE BEST build and has all the loot he could ever desire? Do you run raids with that toon? No, I have seen this many times, I dont need anything from dragon, why would I run it. Would you run them again if there is loot you want? Yes, how much have you (and I) been GRINDING titan lately? Yes, titan is a grind because the three items that are still sweet from there drop at a very low rate. (albeit you have gotten lucky these last couple weeks) We all have stated many times, "I need to work on getting this for this toon, getting that for that toon, if there is nothing to go after you stop playing that toon. If you have 10 toons that are all loaded with gear, why do you play? You don't you become bored and quit. THAT will lose more people than NOT adding a feature that has never been in the game even though there has been nothing but changes since the game came out.

What about the attack of the clones argument?

The only real reason I can see people wanting a respec is so they don't lose the items they have amassed. If this is not the case would any of you be ok with a respec if you could only keep ONE item?

[Monkey_Archer]

If the problem is the aquisition of rare gear, what if you were allowed to "respec" by completely rerolling the character while keeping all of the bound items that he had?

You could select any race/class you wish, and completely remake the character as if you were rerolling normally. The bound items that he had before you reset him go into a special bank tab that can only be taken from, and never added to. You remove an item from it and it becomes bound to you again.

This would take some development time, but probably far less than a full respec system. It would also impose its own time limitations on completely redoing a character.

:eek: First feasible suggestion yet :D

[Mhykke]

The only real reason I can see people wanting a respec is so they don't lose the items they have amassed. If this is not the case would any of you be ok with a respec if you could only keep ONE item?

Answer my question first:


Actually, I haven't been saying this is just for the casual gamer. I've been saying it's an issue of fairness that affects all, albeit differently. Can you please point out where someone made the argument that respecs are "only" for the casual gamer?

I mean, I've seen people say that casual gamers also benefit, when responding to people saying that respecs are only for powergamers.

So I'd really like to see someone who said respecs are just for casuals, to the exclusion of others. I'd be interested in the reasoning. Where's a post I can look to?

[Monkey_Archer]

Time. time. time. time. time.

If given the choice between a new raid and a full respec feature, I know which i would choose. :rolleyes:
Out with the old in with the new i say...

So, that fighter capstone eh?
pretty nice eh?
Good boost for a pure class that has been gimped for a while now eh?

[Cold_Stele]

So I missed 8 pages of this thread whilst at work today.

Were all the posts really about respec???

[Borror0]

Were all the posts really about respec???
Yep.

[Cold_Stele]

What, all the pure Ftrs want to respec to Rgr? :D

[SableShadow]

If this is not the case would any of you be ok with a respec if you could only keep ONE item?

Yes. Do it. I doubt that I'd ever use it on my main, but something is better than nothing, and a step in the right direction. If nothing else, it'll help out someone working on a first character who's trying to get favor, but making build mistakes in the process.

Heck, I might actually find another character concept that I found interesting enough to level to the cap. :)

[Grenfell]

This entire post explains why this is a respec for power gamers wanting to keep all the uber gear they have colected and not for the casual gamer to make a viable build.

Here's where I disagree.

A powergamer -- such as yourself or to a lesser extent me -- could, if they chose, reroll, and go about the grind to collect gear. As you've said yourself, "60 days after rolling XYZ, I will have a Chattering Ring on him."

For a more time-constrained gamer -- who gets on perhaps for an hour or two a night, perhaps raid or two a week -- that's not really possible. For these guys, keeping all the uber gear they've collected over the years is a pretty big deal. And these systemic changes hit them far harder than they hit the powergamer crowd. But it isn't as if the powergamer crowd isn't affected either. We are.

I don't mean "casual gamer" in the sense of, "I don't care, and just want to hang out in taverns and compose dwarven ale-drinking songs". I mean "time-constrained powergamers" of which there are a large number in DDO with its higher avg. age demographic.


Gren you are confusing good for business with good for the gamer. Somethings that are good for business are not fun for the gamer. If there is absoluting nothing hard to get, the unltimate non grinding game, we all would have everythign in no time and quit do to bordem. WE MUST HAVE GRINDING AS MUCH AS WE ALL HATE IT. WOW has tons of grind in it and has 10 million subs.

Like I stated before, the list of uber items that you list earlier in this thread are the reasons respec is wanted. What motavation do you have to run your respeced character after it is respeced to THE BEST build and has all the loot he could ever desire? Do you run raids with that toon? No, I have seen this many times, I dont need anything from dragon, why would I run it. Would you run them again if there is loot you want? Yes, how much have you (and I) been GRINDING titan lately? Yes, titan is a grind because the three items that are still sweet from there drop at a very low rate. (albeit you have gotten lucky these last couple weeks) We all have stated many times, "I need to work on getting this for this toon, getting that for that toon, if there is nothing to go after you stop playing that toon. If you have 10 toons that are all loaded with gear, why do you play? You don't you become bored and quit. THAT will lose more people than NOT adding a feature that has never been in the game even though there has been nothing but changes since the game came out.

I think you're echoing precisely why I am arguing for a respec, but not seeing the conclusion.

Because as long as there is reason to hope that a character could be "the best" (however that is defined), there is a reason to grind. Once that reason is lost, then the character simply becomes a mule.

And FWIW, let's posit that I have every single +3 tome on every single character with every slot filled with GS items or raidloot and couldn't possibly improve ANY of my toons with gear anymore. At that point, as you say, I would have very little reason to run any of them except to help guildies out or whatever. Okay? This is precisely the doomsday scenario you've painted, right?

Now, new Mod hits. Excitement returns!

A new Shavarath Raid drops +4 tomes! Why, it's time to grind again!

There's a new +8 Khopesh of Sheer Destruction That Instantly Snuffs Out All Life! Why, it's time to grind again!

Whatever it is, whenever new loot or new spells or new whatever is added to the game, there's a reason to look forward to improvement.

Except... when improvement is absolutely, flatly impossible.

"Hey, they're introducing Monk! Oh, but you have to be lawful... and there's no way to change alignment."

"Hey, this raid here requires a character with 45 Bluff to progress. Oh @#*()(%!"

"Sweet new bard song in Mod 12, but oh ****, you need 19 lvls of Bard, and you've taken 2 lvls of Fighter. Sucks to be you."

Like I've said many times, I'm not particularly married to any particular method of implementation. What I can't understand is why folks would oppose -- or resolutely refuse to even see -- the need for some sort of a respec mechanism in a game that changes as much as DDO does, without warning, without discussion, without notice.


What about the attack of the clones argument?

The only real reason I can see people wanting a respec is so they don't lose the items they have amassed. If this is not the case would any of you be ok with a respec if you could only keep ONE item?

Ya know, I never understood the "attack of the clones" argument to be honest with you.... Some people like to try creative new things; others just want the assurance of something that works. /shrug Don't really see how it affects me if everyone in the world copies your Oog Ly build (which is sweet). I don't see how it affects me if everyone rolls 18ranger/1rog/1mnk builds. Let them play their toons, and I'll play mine is how I see it.

Frankly, I'd be okay with a "Inheritance" reroll system -- where you kill off one character, and hand all of the loot to a "successor" character. For THIS game.

I'd be fine with a Fred-like NPC that will de-level you once every three days.

I'd be fine with some crafting ritual that will turn a Bind on Character item to a Bind on Account item. That would make rerolling a less painful ordeal.

Because DDO's xp curve is so flat that getting to cap is no real challenge. It's the grind for raidloot that's a big deal. The 1750 favor is a sort of an issue, but I have to think with cap going to 20, +2 tomes in the AH, and more quests in the future, that will eventually become a "no big deal" either.

But as I've said, the specific implementation is something I can debate and so on. The NEED for respec is something I think is incontrovertible.

/gren

[Tanka]

So I missed 8 pages of this thread whilst at work today.

Were all the posts really about respec???
You guys really should consider going to 40 posts/page. Much easier on the eyes. ;)

[Yaga_Nub]

You guys really should consider going to 40 posts/page. Much easier on the eyes. ;)

Maybe even 50 posts/page.

[Tanka]

Maybe even 50 posts/page.
40 is the closest I can get to the answer for life, the universe and everything, so it'll have to do.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

40 is the closest I can get to the answer for life, the universe and everything, so it'll have to do.

Dude - are you sure you're using the same forum as everyone else?

http://i40.tinypic.com/rseb7t.png

Garth

[Tanka]

Dude - are you sure you're using the same forum as everyone else?
Pixels, etc.

[Borror0]

40 is the closest I can get to the answer for life, the universe and everything, so it'll have to do.
But 50 is higher!

[Tanka]

But 50 is higher!
Higher != Greater

[Hadrian]

A few examples I can think off the top of my head are...


As I said, you can never please everyone. There will always be an example of a person who may not be happy with any choice you come up with. The goal should be to cover the needs of as many people as possible.

Yes, there might be a very casual gamer out there that has been playing the same gimped fighter with random silly build choices for years, and would like a respec. More likely, even a casual gamer has had enough time to reroll a more focused 1750 build by now. If this guy is really so casual that this is beyond him, I can't imagine that it really matters to him.

Also, something like "I took a level of X because I was totally clueless" is not what I would hope the intent of the respecs are. I was looking at the need for respecs to give players options when something that is critical to their build is altered in a way that changes what they intended the character to be.

[Girevik]

Because DDO's xp curve is so flat that getting to cap is no real challenge. It's the grind for raidloot that's a big deal. The 1750 favor is a sort of an issue, but I have to think with cap going to 20, +2 tomes in the AH, and more quests in the future, that will eventually become a "no big deal" either.

But as I've said, the specific implementation is something I can debate and so on. The NEED for respec is something I think is incontrovertible.

/gren

I was with you until the quoted section above. That is when you forgot to step back and look at things from a less power-gamer perspective. To some of us, Experience does matter. I am a founder with ONE capped character and two total characters over level 10. I have deleted a few characters, but none higher than level three or four.

I have played pretty much every week, with a few exceptions, since pre-release.

I have no personal stake in how bound raid loot is handled, since I have no bound raid loot. I have seen exactly one +2 tome, the one for 1750 favor.

However, when you progress through levels at the geologically slow pace that I do, there is a definite need for a respec mechanism. I can carefully plan a build out for 1-16 for every level, stat, feat, and skill at character creation, and due to developer changes the game is a completely different animal by the time I hit level 8.

A "reset to 1" respec method is pretty much identical to a "no respec at all" method to me.

It is important to remember in these discussions that the only thing that is guaranteed to move equally from player to player is the calendar.

[Grenfell]

I was with you until the quoted section above. That is when you forgot to step back and look at things from a less power-gamer perspective. To some of us, Experience does matter. I am a founder with ONE capped character and two total characters over level 10. I have deleted a few characters, but none higher than level three or four.

I have played pretty much every week, with a few exceptions, since pre-release.

I have no personal stake in how bound raid loot is handled, since I have no bound raid loot. I have seen exactly one +2 tome, the one for 1750 favor.

However, when you progress through levels at the geologically slow pace that I do, there is a definite need for a respec mechanism. I can carefully plan a build out for 1-16 for every level, stat, feat, and skill at character creation, and due to developer changes the game is a completely different animal by the time I hit level 8.

A "reset to 1" respec method is pretty much identical to a "no respec at all" method to me.

It is important to remember in these discussions that the only thing that is guaranteed to move equally from player to player is the calendar.

And I would be perfectly fine to go with a more incremental respec mechanism. Your point is well taken, sir.

FWIW, Asheron's Call 1 had one of the best respec mechanisms I've seen (IMHO). Now, that's an entirely skill-based system so things like class levels and alignment don't really play into things. But it was possible respec your abilities completely and all your skills, but it took a long time. You could reset things only one "step" at a time, and on a timer.

So in DDO terms, you could in theory go from 18 Str to 10 Str, and 10 Int to 18 Int, but it might take you 6 weeks.

Similarly, I think a "Fred" style de-levelling NPC might be a decent answer. Perhaps allow a player every 3 days to reset anywhere from 1-4 levels, with cost commensurate. (E.g., 1 siberys shard + 100K per level reset; so 4 siberys shards and 400k to reset 4). This way, a lvl 16 would still need 12 days to go to zero, while someone who only wants to go back a step can do it without having to regrind all the XP.

I submit it's hard to be a FOTM type of thing if it takes two weeks (and 16 siberys shards) to reset things completely.

But that's implementation, and I'm still arguing for the basic principle. :)

/gren

[moorewr]

I've always figured "full respec" (whatever is meant by that in practice) was a good target for Turbine's "Premium Services." It is certainly a big convenience and time saver for the player buying the service, but it does not result in a character with better stats or equipment than you can acquire with sweat equity and a monthly subscription.

EDIT: but see below.

[Borror0]

I've always figured "full respec" (whatever is meant by that in practice) was a good target for Turbine's "Premium Services."
I disagree. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2084327#post2084327)

[moorewr]

I disagree. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2084327#post2084327)

Responding over there with a clarification. ;)

[apacheizm23]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.

Fighters are the most versatile of our martial classes, and in Module Nine we've given them ways to express themselves as the master of a single weapon style through the Kensai, or a defensive bulwark that protects the party as a Stalwart Defender. Their capstone is tied to the thought that while a paladin has their faith and a ranger is tied to the wild, mastery of weapons is what fighters strive for.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Prereqs: Fighter level 20
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your mastery with all weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal. Grants a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with all combat styles.

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to match your attack speed with two weapons), and the Thief-Acrobat or Monk may wield a staff with greater speed, they all fall apart when forced from their specialized combat styles. Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.

Don't Rangers get this at level 6? lol I like it but seems a bit weak for a fighter level 20 Capstone, specially knowing Rangers get that at Lev6 Hmmm. Can u say something toward this Eladrin? I know none of the capstones are final but.

And for those of you who say that Fighters have been gimped for a long time,please speak for yourselves..My pure Fighter can hold his own.I have compared my fighter with some of the better TWF in our server and in my comparison my fighter has done just fine.Kohpesh Sword N Board And THF Great Axe/Maul specked..As Eladrin said a Master of Weapons he has all the Feats for slashing and Bludgeoning

[Tin_Dragon]

Will this stack with other alacrity items? if not, its worthless.

[Delt]

Don't Rangers get this at level 6? lol I like it but seems a bit weak for a fighter level 20 Capstone, specially knowing Rangers get that at Lev6 Hmmm. Can u say something toward this Eladrin? I know none of the capstones are final but.

And for those of you who say that Fighters have been gimped for a long time,please speak for yourselves..My pure Fighter can hold his own.I have compared my fighter with some of the better TWF in our server and in my comparison my fighter has done just fine.Kohpesh Sword N Board And THF Great Axe/Maul specked..As Eladrin said a Master of Weapons he has all the Feats for slashing and Bludgeoning

1) Yes, rangers are also forced to take 3 feats and 4 APs for it. Fighters get it for 2ap at a later level. Fair trade off.

2) Just because you pretend your THF can compete with TWF dps-wise doesn't make it a fact -- just makes you delusional.

Whether THF makes a comeback in mod 9 will depend heavily on whether the % to proc on glancing blows is enhanceable up to 100%. If it is, it's a start (we still need to see a boost in either base TH weapon dmg or 100% base in GTHF glances). If it maxes out at anything less, it just shows the devs are content in being clueless.

[gfunk]

Well, there is too much stuff in this thread to read it all now, but I just have to say that I think this latest revision to pure fighters turns them into dps beasts. (new enhancements in red)

attack speed +10%
extra seeker +4 (I think this will stack with the bloodstone)
+1 to crit range
30% haste boost
+8 strength surge
+3 to combat feat dc's
all the fighter feats and enhancements for + to base damage/attack

Pure fighters should be rejoicing. This mod should be called the way of the fighter.

I just can't decide if I want to go with khopeshes for bosses, or heavypicks + stunning blow for trash. Either way, it's going to be good.

p.s. my ranger feels very threatened by all of this

[Tanka]

Well, there is too much stuff in this thread to read it all now, but I just have to say that I think this latest revision to pure fighters turns them into dps beasts. (new enhancements in red)

attack speed +10%
extra seeker +4 (I think this will stack with the bloodstone)
+1 to crit range
30% haste boost
+8 strength surge
+3 to combat feat dc's
all the fighter feats and enhancements for + to base damage/attack

Pure fighters should be rejoicing. This mod should be called the way of the fighter.

I just can't decide if I want to go with khopeshes for bosses, or heavypicks + stunning blow for trash. Either way, it's going to be good.

p.s. my ranger feels very threatened by all of this
Not having Evasion definitely keeps this from being "way of the fighter". It's a good Capstone, yes, but it isn't awesome on a stick like you think.

Pure Fighters will rejoice when they get better Feats, period. Right now, the majority of them are useless.

I'd sooner reroll Honos as a Ranger than keep him Fighter, to be honest.

[Hadrian]

I agree. Rangers offer evasion and a range of useful buffs that can be given to themselves and the party.

Fighters offer a lot of feats, but some of that is made up for by the fact that rangers get very useful "free" feats, and what remains for the fighter to choose over what the ranger can fit isn't all that useful.

What might change this is the ability to choose a class and racial PrE. Depending on how it is done, we might find it much easier to have a halfling fighter kensai III/dragonmark heir than a tempest III/dragonmark heir (or juggernaut). It will depend on how useful such options are whether or not the fighter can match up to the ranger.

[Aesop]

I agree. Rangers offer evasion and a range of useful buffs that can be given to themselves and the party.

Fighters offer a lot of feats, but some of that is made up for by the fact that rangers get very useful "free" feats, and what remains for the fighter to choose over what the ranger can fit isn't all that useful.

What might change this is the ability to choose a class and racial PrE. Depending on how it is done, we might find it much easier to have a halfling fighter kensai III/dragonmark heir than a tempest III/dragonmark heir (or juggernaut). It will depend on how useful such options are whether or not the fighter can match up to the ranger.

Another factor is the addition of new effective Combat Feats.

Aesop

[Yaga_Nub]

Not having Evasion definitely keeps this from being "way of the fighter". It's a good Capstone, yes, but it isn't awesome on a stick like you think.

.....


I agree. Rangers offer evasion and a range of useful buffs that can be given to themselves and the party.

.....

Evasion is not the be-all, end-all feat that everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. It is a very useful feat but there's a reason that only three classes get it. This is a team game and everyone seems to be forgetting that. If you want to be a soloist then sure being a Ranger will be good for you (I've known this since I started playing the game) but if you play in groups then you can be a fighter or a barb or whatever you like because you'll have people that can make up for whatever shortcomings your character has.

Why does everyone want all classes to be exactly the same? And if you truly don't want that then why do you pine away for certain feats for all classes?

[FluffyCalico]

Why does everyone want all classes to be exactly the same? And if you truly don't want that then why do you pine away for certain feats for all classes?

I think they are sick of seeing a LFM for soul stealer or enter kobald where the caster putting it up thinks they need a cleric and 4 evasion types and won't consider anyone who's not evasion.

Before you say you don't need 4 evasion I know that but it doesn't stop those LFMs.

[Mhykke]

Why does everyone want all classes to be exactly like mine?

Fixed that for ya! :D

[Kintro]

I think they are sick of seeing a LFM for soul stealer or enter kobald where the caster putting it up thinks they need a cleric and 4 evasion types and won't consider anyone who's not evasion.

Before you say you don't need 4 evasion I know that but it doesn't stop those LFMs.

Silly people, don't they know they need a fighter/barb to pull the valve?

If the leader is so narrow minded he can only see one possible way to complete a quest do you really want to be in his group anyway? In my experience those are the groups that can go very wrong.

[Aesop]

Why does everyone want all classes to be exactly the same? And if you truly don't want that then why do you pine away for certain feats for all classes?

I thnk its less about beingthe same and more about relative power.

rangers have gotten huge boosts in relative power and Fighters have not.

The only boost that a fighter has really gotten is the Weapon Specialization Feats are a broad category improvement instead of a single weapon, but they lost a measure of their flexibility because of the limited useful Feat Selection

Rangers have gained multiple Feat, improved Favored Enemy, Improved Casting, improved Wild Empathy. What they've lost is Track (nigh useless in this rendition of DnD) and Animal Companions... which with the new Hirling Tech could and should be making an appearance soon (tm).

Honestly rangers shoulld probably get a big fat nerf somewhere in there. Probably to their Favored Enemy. Instead of +2 each time they gain a new one maybe +2 for the first and +1 each thereafter. introduce this the same time they get their Animal Companions

Fighters however need more feat to play with. That is their entire Schtick and they haven't been able to play to their strengths.

A_D has a few threads on some decent Feat ideas. I don't necessarily agree with all the implementation ideas, but at least they are good starting points.

Combat Focus feats and others from the Player's Handbook 2
Tome of Battle Feat
Style Specific Feat

Fighters get 11 extra Feat to customize themselves with and thus far the builds have been pretty generic as a rule with everyone pretty similar over all. Get some more good Feat options out there and we may have something.

[Hadrian]

Why does everyone want all classes to be exactly the same? And if you truly don't want that then why do you pine away for certain feats for all classes?

I don't follow how stating that there are differences that keep them both viable in their own way is wanting all classes to be the same. Yes, you can make up for the lack of evasion with items and be no less effective, but the ranger does not need to deal with that.

[Pwesiela]

If the leader is so narrow minded he can only see one possible way to complete a quest do you really want to be in his group anyway? In my experience those are the groups that can go very wrong.

And for this reason I will never join a sub-T loot run that is organized by one monk/ranger/rogue who is looking for nothing but clerics and casters. I won't do it on my cleric, I won't do it on my casters, because the leader is being selfish and rude.

However, if I knew I was going to get a raiment that run, I'd go in on my cleric, and loot it right in front of them so that I could say that I sold it to the barkeep in the portable hole.

You don't need 11 clerics and casters you greedy pako's.

[DelScorcho]

p.s. my ranger feels very threatened by all of this

I'm not overly concerned by the fighter capstone. It is very good. A pure 20 fighter has a lot of really nice DPS enhancements. However, it will be hard to run a pure DPS fighter (no evasion, no self-heal, no self resists, UMD caps at like 34). Depending on how high the % of procs for special effects on THF is with enhancements, possibly only a TWF will have comparable DPS to a ranger. That character will be sacrificing usable evasion for +1 crit range, as you can get the other benefits with a 12/6/2 build. This appeals to my sense of sacrifice and a player's personal preference about what they want their character to be able to do. I have no current plans to run a 20F TWF, as I like my characters to be a little more self-reliant.

[Hadrian]

I'm not overly concerned by the fighter capstone. It is very good. A pure 20 fighter has a lot of really nice DPS enhancements. However, it will be hard to run a pure DPS fighter (no evasion, no self-heal, no self resists, UMD caps at like 34). Depending on how high the % of procs for special effects on THF is with enhancements, possibly only a TWF will have comparable DPS to a ranger. That character will be sacrificing usable evasion for +1 crit range, as you can get the other benefits with a 12/6/2 build. This appeals to my sense of sacrifice and a player's personal preference about what they want their character to be able to do. I have no current plans to run a 20F TWF, as I like my characters to be a little more self-reliant.

If you have a nice collection of resistance items and maybe some % reduction items, like the firestorm greaves and ring of the djinn, evasion and self buffs become less of an issue. You will still lack a considerable amount of AC, but should come out with more hit points and better possible DR. In any case, AC is not critical, and sometimes being easily hit is desirable for a DPS melee.

[Yaga_Nub]

Fixed that for ya! :D

**** it Mhykke you saw through my scheme!

[Yaga_Nub]

I thnk its less about beingthe same and more about relative power.

rangers have gotten huge boosts in relative power and Fighters have not.

The only boost that a fighter has really gotten is the Weapon Specialization Feats are a broad category improvement instead of a single weapon, but they lost a measure of their flexibility because of the limited useful Feat Selection

Rangers have gained multiple Feat, improved Favored Enemy, Improved Casting, improved Wild Empathy. What they've lost is Track (nigh useless in this rendition of DnD) and Animal Companions... which with the new Hirling Tech could and should be making an appearance soon (tm).

Honestly rangers shoulld probably get a big fat nerf somewhere in there. Probably to their Favored Enemy. Instead of +2 each time they gain a new one maybe +2 for the first and +1 each thereafter. introduce this the same time they get their Animal Companions

Fighters however need more feat to play with. That is their entire Schtick and they haven't been able to play to their strengths.

A_D has a few threads on some decent Feat ideas. I don't necessarily agree with all the implementation ideas, but at least they are good starting points.

Combat Focus feats and others from the Player's Handbook 2
Tome of Battle Feat
Style Specific Feat

Fighters get 11 extra Feat to customize themselves with and thus far the builds have been pretty generic as a rule with everyone pretty similar over all. Get some more good Feat options out there and we may have something.

The only huge boost that the Ranger has received is the Tempest Enhancement. Otherwise they still play the same as they did when DDO first started and people wouldn't give a Ranger a slot in a group even if it meant not running a quest.

[Sabotage]

The only huge boost that the Ranger has received is the Tempest Enhancement. Otherwise they still play the same as they did when DDO first started and people wouldn't give a Ranger a slot in a group even if it meant not running a quest.

Pffft from running with you, Milo and Futz all the time, i had a reason to think rangers were gimp back then... :D

[gfunk]

I'm not overly concerned by the fighter capstone. It is very good. A pure 20 fighter has a lot of really nice DPS enhancements. However, it will be hard to run a pure DPS fighter (no evasion, no self-heal, no self resists, UMD caps at like 34). Depending on how high the % of procs for special effects on THF is with enhancements, possibly only a TWF will have comparable DPS to a ranger. That character will be sacrificing usable evasion for +1 crit range, as you can get the other benefits with a 12/6/2 build. This appeals to my sense of sacrifice and a player's personal preference about what they want their character to be able to do. I have no current plans to run a 20F TWF, as I like my characters to be a little more self-reliant.

As others have said, with some good gear like resist items, greaves, ice cloak (and a boatload of hitpoints) a fighter does quite well without evasion. Also, I have my pure fighter set up so that cure serious wounds potions hit for up to 61 points (and you can drink pots faster then you can UMD heal scrolls, with the cool down), so self sufficiency with a fighter can be pretty good. And alot of those str based rangers have pretty sub-par reflex saves anyways so that evasion isn't getting them all they think it is (i.e. I think there is a big difference between a str based ranger with a reflex of 25 and a dex based with a reflex of 30+)

And in terms of DPS, this is how I see it:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906
(I like where my pure fighter is going to end up on dps ranking.. not so crazy about my dex-rangers dps... or at least, I feel that they have moved a fair ways down the rankings with the changes coming in mod 9).

[xberto]

Evasion is not the be-all, end-all feat that everyone keeps trying to make it out to be. It is a very useful feat but there's a reason that only three classes get it. This is a team game and everyone seems to be forgetting that. If you want to be a soloist then sure being a Ranger will be good for you (I've known this since I started playing the game) but if you play in groups then you can be a fighter or a barb or whatever you like because you'll have people that can make up for whatever shortcomings your character has.

Why does everyone want all classes to be exactly the same? And if you truly don't want that then why do you pine away for certain feats for all classes?


I hear ya brother. I don't need evasion because the cleric has my back. Just like I got his when I need to intimidate the mobs off him.

[Angelus_dead]

The only huge boost that the Ranger has received is the Tempest Enhancement. Otherwise they still play the same as they did when DDO first started and people wouldn't give a Ranger a slot in a group even if it meant not running a quest.
Incorrect.

Rangers got Favored Enemy, Ram's Might, GTWF, buffed TWF #1, buffed TWF #2, buffed Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Heavy Fortification, Bracers of Armor 8, and Icy Rainments.

That's without getting into the question of whether monk1 counts as a ranger buff (Hint: It does)

[Angelus_dead]

Honestly rangers shoulld probably get a big fat nerf somewhere in there. Probably to their Favored Enemy. Instead of +2 each time they gain a new one maybe +2 for the first and +1 each thereafter.
They could nerf it and follow D&D rules at the same time: only give the full +8 damage to one of your favorite enemies. The others get +6, +4, or just +2, depending on their order in the list.

[The_Phenx]

With this preview, we've completed our pass through the various prestige enhancement lines and capstones.

Fighters are the most versatile of our martial classes, and in Module Nine we've given them ways to express themselves as the master of a single weapon style through the Kensai, or a defensive bulwark that protects the party as a Stalwart Defender. Their capstone is tied to the thought that while a paladin has their faith and a ranger is tied to the wild, mastery of weapons is what fighters strive for.

Fighter Weapon Alacrity
Prereqs: Fighter level 20
Cost: 2 Action Points
Benefit: Your mastery with all weapons is such that you are able to attack faster than normal. Grants a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with all combat styles.

The Ranger may be faster with a bow (or specialize to match your attack speed with two weapons), and the Thief-Acrobat or Monk may wield a staff with greater speed, they all fall apart when forced from their specialized combat styles. Bow, great weapon, shield... It doesn't matter to a well trained fighter. The Kensai will still obviously prefer their chosen weapon, but will be no slouch with another style.

As with all of the previews, this capstone is subject to change before it goes live.

I just got back from vacation to find this... CHEERING AND CLAPPING

Eladrin can I hug you?

Ghinsuu just got even more rediculous.

Oh and to those naysayers... evasion isnt necessary, just takes gear to compensate.

[Borror0]

Rangers got Favored Enemy, Ram's Might, GTWF, buffed TWF #1, buffed TWF #2, buffed Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Heavy Fortification, Bracers of Armor 8, and Icy Rainments.
...and that's without mentioning how the quest desgin became biased toward rangers.

You forgot the Evasion nerf, who benefited rangers, by the way.

[DelScorcho]

If you have a nice collection of resistance items and maybe some % reduction items, like the firestorm greaves and ring of the djinn, evasion and self buffs become less of an issue. You will still lack a considerable amount of AC, but should come out with more hit points and better possible DR. In any case, AC is not critical, and sometimes being easily hit is desirable for a DPS melee.

Don't get me wrong, there are options. I have thought about the greaves. Obviously they work right now, as Groan was able to solo Sorjak, and numerous people have used them to good effect in missions that feature a whole lot of fire damage. The problem is that the character needs to grind for those items before running the quests. In the absence of prior knowledge what will be in the quest, the pure fighter may be at more of a disadvantage than another character type, as the evasion tank will perform as well for all damage that can be evaded.

There is no telling what the major damage type will be in future missions, or if the devs give out such a handy item. Only Mournlands people really know what to expect. When the devs hinted that a future mod will contain a caster PrC that would allow the caster to use existing spells to cast existing spells with different elemental properties, my concern was of a future filled with Walls of Acid, delayed blast ice balls, and force storm. Based upon that, an evasion tank is still the safer play here, in my opinion.

[Yaga_Nub]

Incorrect.

Rangers got Favored Enemy, Ram's Might, GTWF, buffed TWF #1, buffed TWF #2, buffed Manyshot, Improved Precise Shot, Heavy Fortification, Bracers of Armor 8, and Icy Rainments.

That's without getting into the question of whether monk1 counts as a ranger buff (Hint: It does)

Incorrect.

Take out heavy fort and bracers of armor 8 and the icy rainments.

Especially take out the Monk comment because only someone as clueless and self-important as yourself would try to make that out to be a ranger only buff.

Now GTWF, I think any melee can take that as well so we'll just remove that too.

Ram's Might I will give you but it's only a big deal to whiny little rules lawyers and those whose e-peens get affected if they aren't leading the kill count.

You'll have to explain buffed TWF 1 and 2 but I'm sure it's just some mindless drivel you've made up in your head anyway so we can throw those out as well.

Manyshot and Improved Precise Shot can be selected by other melees as well so that's a wash.

So what was your point again A_D?

[Yaga_Nub]

...and that's without mentioning how the quest desgin became biased toward rangers.

You forgot the Evasion nerf, who benefited rangers, by the way.

Yes Bor, the devs have hard-ons for the ranger class so they purposely designed the whole game to have only giants, evil outsiders, and undead and the mobs only cast spells that have evasion as a defense.

The Evasion nerf wasn't a nerf and it didn't benefit rangers anymore than it did xxx/rogue or monk 2 builds.

[Yaga_Nub]

They could nerf it and follow D&D rules at the same time: only give the full +8 damage to one of your favorite enemies. The others get +6, +4, or just +2, depending on their order in the list.

And it wouldn't even really be a nerf would it?

Honestly, this suggestion has been talked to death as well. It's a great suggestion but one that needs to be presented another way because it's not gaining any traction that I can tell with the devs.

[Emili]

They could nerf it and follow D&D rules at the same time: only give the full +8 damage to one of your favorite enemies. The others get +6, +4, or just +2, depending on their order in the list.


I do not know how this thread diverted to a fighter vs ranger comparison thread?

I never understood why they did not follow the PnP rule for favored... it's overkill plus the ranger enhancement system supports the damage options on top of all this. Rangers typically do not sit at +8 ... the range is +8 to +12 thus the average is +10, Thus overshadows feats such as power attack where you have +5 or +10 but a -5 to-hit for doing so.

So then... correct rangers to PnP favored numbers... correct fighter enhancements to offer up to +4 equivalents on Greater Weapon specialization, Offer Kensai and other PrE's about the cost of tempest... right size Kensai and other PrE's to be more like tempest in the fact that they add in not only ie.) good offense but slight defense or the other way around for defender etc... And Last but not Least... Make existing feats better and add more varied Good feats... the enhancements are often equals, substitutes or sometimes even better then a Base DnD feat - which is quite silly when you think about it.

[Borror0]

Yes Bor, the devs have hard-ons for the ranger class so they purposely designed the whole game to have only giants, evil outsiders, and undead and the mobs only cast spells that have evasion as a defense.
Never said it was intentional, but that is still the result.

Nearly everything that matters can be covered by FE and the most dangerous threats can be avoided by Evasion.

The Evasion nerf wasn't a nerf and it didn't benefit rangers anymore than it did xxx/rogue or monk 2 builds.
Of course it was. It allowed rangers to be of the few to have Evasion without making any sacrifices.

[Borror0]

I never understood why they did not follow the PnP rule for favored
Maybe it was easier to code or they felt rangers needed some help at the time?

[gfunk]

Sort of tired of all the "xxx class is overpowerd/underpowered blah blah blah" with no numbers to back it up. Honestly, relative dps for the classes (for mod 9) are pretty reasonably lined up. The new enhancements to fighters put them in a pretty good spot. I made a post to start to try and quantify this, here is the summary chart.

Damage per round, with weapon effects and buffs (see link below for details)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2086688&postcount=46 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=46)
full thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

818.0 .. Strength Based Assassin w/o sneak attack/backstabbing
956.4 .. Dex Based elven Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs non-favored
978.6 .. The Exploiter vs. non-favored, no sneak attack (khopesh) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1036.6 .. Strength based tempest ranger not attacking favored
1048.3 .. Knight of the Chalice not vs. evil outsiders (16 bse str)
1066.0 .. Critical Rage II WF Barbarian w/ heavy picks
1072.0 .. Critical Rage II WF Barbarian w/ khopeshes
1134.1 .. Monster vs. unfavored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1134.8 .. Colossus http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631)
1137.4 .. 14/6 dwarf barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes not vs favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667)
1184.1 .. Dex Based elven Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs favored
1203.7 .. Kensai fighter
1223.2 .. Monster vs. favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1226.5 .. 14/6 dwarf barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes vs favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667)
1230.8 .. Frenzied barbarian
1263.9 .. The Exploiter vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1265.2 .. Strength based tempest ranger vs. favored
1277.3 .. Frezied Barbarian w/ both power attack enhancements (barb III/wf III)
1317.8 .. Knight of the Chalice vs evil outsiders, w/zeal (16 bse str)
1389.0 .. Strength based assassin while backstabbing
1453.5 .. The exploiter vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) w/haste boost I http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1475.2 .. Colossus haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631)
1564.8 .. Kensai fighter while hasted boosted +30%
1590.2 .. Monster haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1762.2 .. Knight of the Chalice smiting 1/round, w/zeal vs evil outsiders (16bse str)
1805.7 .. Strength based assassin incl backstabbing, sneak attack, haste boosted +30%

[Yaga_Nub]

Of course it was. It allowed rangers to be of the few to have Evasion without making any sacrifices.

Which of course is exactly how DnD 3.5 meant for it to be.

[Yaga_Nub]

Sort of tired of all the "xxx class is overpowerd/underpowered blah blah blah" with no numbers to back it up. Honestly, relative dps for the classes (for mod 9) are pretty reasonably lined up. The new enhancements to fighters put them in a pretty good spot. I made a post to start to try and quantify this, here is the summary chart.

Damage per round, with weapon effects and buffs (see link below for details)
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=46 (http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p...8&postcount=46)
full thread:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174906

818.0 .. Strength Based Assassin w/o sneak attack/backstabbing
956.4 .. Dex Based elven Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs non-favored
978.6 .. The Exploiter vs. non-favored, no sneak attack (khopesh) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1036.6 .. Strength based tempest ranger not attacking favored
1048.3 .. Knight of the Chalice not vs. evil outsiders (16 bse str)
1066.0 .. Critical Rage II WF Barbarian w/ heavy picks
1072.0 .. Critical Rage II WF Barbarian w/ khopeshes
1134.1 .. Monster vs. unfavored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1134.8 .. Colossus http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631)
1137.4 .. 14/6 dwarf barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes not vs favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667)
1184.1 .. Dex Based elven Tempest Ranger with rapiers, vs favored
1203.7 .. Kensai fighter
1223.2 .. Monster vs. favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1226.5 .. 14/6 dwarf barb(crit rage II)/ranger w/ dwarven axes vs favored http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=174667)
1230.8 .. Frenzied barbarian
1263.9 .. The Exploiter vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1265.2 .. Strength based tempest ranger vs. favored
1277.3 .. Frezied Barbarian w/ both power attack enhancements (barb III/wf III)
1317.8 .. Knight of the Chalice vs evil outsiders, w/zeal (16 bse str)
1389.0 .. Strength based assassin while backstabbing
1453.5 .. The exploiter vs favored including sneak attack/backstab(khopesh) w/haste boost I http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=168687)
1475.2 .. Colossus haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=173631)
1564.8 .. Kensai fighter while hasted boosted +30%
1590.2 .. Monster haste boosted +30% http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172630)
1762.2 .. Knight of the Chalice smiting 1/round, w/zeal vs evil outsiders (16bse str)
1805.7 .. Strength based assassin incl backstabbing, sneak attack, haste boosted +30%

If those are fairly accurate numbers then cool!

[Borror0]

Which of course is exactly how DnD 3.5 meant for it to be.
Irrelevant, since we are talking about DDO and thus it nerfed the characters.

[gfunk]

If those are fairly accurate numbers then cool!

Well, I posted all the calculations behind the numbers in another thread. you can go through all the tedious detail if you have time. If there are any errors and people point them out, I'll fix the numbers. (the numbers already have been improved/modified a couple times as per peoples suggestions)

[Borror0]

Well, I posted all the calculations behind the numbers in another thread. you can go through all the tedious detail if you have time. If there are any errors and people point them out, I'll fix the numbers. (the numbers already have been improved/modified a couple times as per peoples suggestions)
Those are in what unit?

[Angelus_dead]

Incorrect.
No, you are wrong. But if you can't already tell, it probably won't help for me to explain it.


Take out heavy fort and bracers of armor 8 and the icy rainments.
That would be inaccurate, because those items improved rangers more than they did competing classes (other melees, particularly heavy-armor guys)


Especially take out the Monk comment because only someone as clueless and self-important as yourself would try to make that out to be a ranger only buff.
To say that demonstrates who's really clueless.


Now GTWF, I think any melee can take that as well so we'll just remove that too.
That is completely illogical.

I shouldn't have to explain this, but I'll give it a try:
Alice and Barbie don't like to eat lunch, so they sell their snacks to the other girls for money.
Alice's mom gives her a fruit bar and Barbie can pick a fruit bar or chocolate pudding.
Fruit bars sell for $0.25 and pudding sells for $1.
One day, the manufacturer of fruit bars changes them to a sugar-recipe to be more popular, and now kids buy them for $2.

Which girl gained more income by that change?


You'll have to explain buffed TWF 1 and 2 but I'm sure it's just some mindless drivel you've made up in your head anyway so we can throw those out as well.
Why exactly would I spend time explaining something to someone who talks to me like that?

Obviously if you act like that, I won't feel an incentive to help you understand. My only reason to explain it would be to show everyone else how wrong you are. But, everyone else can already tell.

[Aspenor]

They could nerf it and follow D&D rules at the same time: only give the full +8 damage to one of your favorite enemies. The others get +6, +4, or just +2, depending on their order in the list.

Not technically correct, but I would like to see them fix this broken part of the ranger class, so here goes:


Favored Enemy (Ex): At 1st level, a ranger may select a type of creature from among those given on Table: Ranger Favored Enemies. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on Bluff, Listen, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival checks when using these skills against creatures of this type. Likewise, he gets a +2 bonus on weapon damage rolls against such creatures.
At 5th level and every five levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th level), the ranger may select an additional favored enemy from those given on the table. In addition, at each such interval, the bonus against any one favored enemy (including the one just selected, if so desired) increases by 2.
If the ranger chooses humanoids or outsiders as a favored enemy, he must also choose an associated subtype, as indicated on the table. If a specific creature falls into more than one category of favored enemy, the ranger’s bonuses do not stack; he simply uses whichever bonus is higher.


The wording of favored enemy states that the ranger may choose which favored enemy to add the +2 for each time they choose a new favored enemy. So, at first level you have one favored enemy and +2 damage to it. At 5 level you have 2 favored enemies, with one of them getting a +4 damage bonus and the other gaining +2. At 10th level you have 3 favored enemies, with any combination of these: (+2, +2, +6);(+2, +4, +4);(+4,+2,+4); etc. At current level cap, a pure ranger (or a ranger15/1monk) will have 4 favored enemies, and can have any combination of: (+2, +2, +2, +8);(+2, +4, +4, +4);(+2, +2, +4, +6), etc.

The rules actually make favored enemy even weaker than the way you phrased it.

But yeah, FE needs the nerf bat....err....the fix bat.

[frugal_gourmet]

Not technically correct, but I would like to see them fix this broken part of the ranger class, so here goes:

The wording of favored enemy states that the ranger may choose which favored enemy to add the +2 for each time they choose a new favored enemy. So, at first level you have one favored enemy and +2 damage to it. At 5 level you have 2 favored enemies, with one of them getting a +4 damage bonus and the other gaining +2. At 10th level you have 3 favored enemies, with any combination of these: (+2, +2, +6);(+2, +4, +4);(+4,+2,+4); etc. At current level cap, a pure ranger (or a ranger15/1monk) will have 4 favored enemies, and can have any combination of: (+2, +2, +2, +8);(+2, +4, +4, +4);(+2, +2, +4, +6), etc.

The rules actually make favored enemy even weaker than the way you phrased it.

But yeah, FE needs the nerf bat....err....the fix bat.

While I have no "on paper" issue with either suggestion to fix favored enemy, both actually have big design change complications. Especially this one. A new mechanism would have to be designed to keep track of individually assigned bonuses, which would also require more tweaking of the feat respec portion of the game.

[gfunk]

Those are in what unit?

total damage per round, multiplied by alacrity/zeal/haste boost bonuses (but not haste). The error associated with the uncertain relationship between the various speed enhancements shouldnt be very significant (esp if haste spell is not included). In this chart they are multiplicative, though this is slightly optimistic given some of the work regarding stacking ( http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=172819&highlight=cforce%27s ).

Numbers are essentially for BAB 16 (note everyone is considered to be wearing madstone boots). didnt look at BAB 20 as I don't know how many attacks that will provide yet

[Aspenor]

While I have no "on paper" issue with either suggestion to fix favored enemy, both actually have big design change complications. Especially this one. A new mechanism would have to be designed to keep track of individually assigned bonuses, which would also require more tweaking of the feat respec portion of the game.

True enough, but it'd still go a long way to fixing the "ranger imbalance" issue that comes up every week.

[Yaga_Nub]

No, you are wrong. .....

I know you but what am I?

neener neener

What is this? Grade school?

Come on Gimpster, you can do better than that.

[Angelus_dead]

The wording of favored enemy states that the ranger may choose which favored enemy to add the +2 for each time they choose a new favored enemy.
That would actually be easy to add to DDO.

First remove the existing level-based FE scaling. Then grant new feat slots at level 5, 10, 15, and 20, which can only be used to contain an Improved Favored Enemy feat.

Improved FE Reptiles I gives you another +2 against Reptiles, and requires FE Reptiles. Improved FE Reptiles II gives another +2, and requires Improved FE Reptiles I. Improved FE Evil Outsiders V requires Improved FE Evil Outsiders IV, and gives another +2.

It would take a lot of copy and paste for them to build those repetitive feats, but they would work straightforwardly. With those feats in place, rangers could slowly shift their most favored enemy bonus by +2 every 3 days, but that wouldn't be fast enough to change from Outsider to Undead depending on which raid is scheduled for tonight.

[Borror0]

You'll have to explain buffed TWF 1 and 2 but I'm sure it's just some mindless drivel you've made up in your head anyway so we can throw those out as well.
Before insulting against posters on their assertion make sure you know what the hell you are talking about.

Two-weapon fighting received multiple bonus through the modules, the most notable probably being the GTWF improvement of Module 6.

[Aspenor]

That would actually be easy to add to DDO.

First remove the existing level-based FE scaling. Then grant new feat slots at level 5, 10, 15, and 20, which can only be used to contain an Improved Favored Enemy feat.

Improved FE Reptiles I gives you another +2 against Reptiles, and requires FE Reptiles. Improved FE Reptiles II gives another +2, and requires Improved FE Reptiles I. Improved FE Evil Outsiders V requires Improved FE Evil Outsiders IV, and gives another +2.

It would take a lot of copy and paste for them to build those repetitive feats, but they would work straightforwardly. With those feats in place, rangers could slowly shift their most favored enemy bonus by +2 every 3 days, but that wouldn't be fast enough to change from Outsider to Undead depending on which raid is scheduled for tonight.

Simple, and elegant. Good post A_D.

[Tanka]

Simple, and elegant. Good post A_D.
If memory serves, that's how it works in NWN.

[Borror0]

(but not haste).
Chances many numbers quite significantly. Mostly the Tempest III Rangers.

[Yaga_Nub]

Before insulting against posters on their assertion make sure you know what the hell you are talking about.

Two-weapon fighting received multiple bonus through the modules, the most notable probably being the GTWF improvement of Module 6.

Right, but they weren't Ranger only buffs. That's my point. So using them to say that Rangers are better because of XXX isn't accurate. It is more accurate to say that anyone that dual-wields is more powerful than THF or S&B.

So by implying there was some Ranger only buff with TWF was and is pure drivel. The combat style got buffed not Rangers. Rangers just happen to quite frequently use that style of combat.

[frugal_gourmet]

That would actually be easy to add to DDO.

First remove the existing level-based FE scaling. Then grant new feat slots at level 5, 10, 15, and 20, which can only be used to contain an Improved Favored Enemy feat.

Improved FE Reptiles I gives you another +2 against Reptiles, and requires FE Reptiles. Improved FE Reptiles II gives another +2, and requires Improved FE Reptiles I. Improved FE Evil Outsiders V requires Improved FE Evil Outsiders IV, and gives another +2.

It would take a lot of copy and paste for them to build those repetitive feats, but they would work straightforwardly. With those feats in place, rangers could slowly shift their most favored enemy bonus by +2 every 3 days, but that wouldn't be fast enough to change from Outsider to Undead depending on which raid is scheduled for tonight.


Not bad. You would obviously need to enable a feat respec on all Ranger builds (I suspect the game could guess these initially, but probably has no real knowledge of what order you took them in).

[Yaga_Nub]

That would actually be easy to add to DDO.

First remove the existing level-based FE scaling. Then grant new feat slots at level 5, 10, 15, and 20, which can only be used to contain an Improved Favored Enemy feat.

Improved FE Reptiles I gives you another +2 against Reptiles, and requires FE Reptiles. Improved FE Reptiles II gives another +2, and requires Improved FE Reptiles I. Improved FE Evil Outsiders V requires Improved FE Evil Outsiders IV, and gives another +2.

It would take a lot of copy and paste for them to build those repetitive feats, but they would work straightforwardly. With those feats in place, rangers could slowly shift their most favored enemy bonus by +2 every 3 days, but that wouldn't be fast enough to change from Outsider to Undead depending on which raid is scheduled for tonight.

I think this would be a great change.

[Aspenor]

Not bad. You would obviously need to enable a feat respec on all Ranger builds (I suspect the game could guess these initially, but probably has no real knowledge of what order you took them in).

Technically the order doesn't matter. All that matters is which type of enemy would be boosted every time you gain a new one.

[Borror0]

Right, but they weren't Ranger only buffs.
Yeah, but it made rangers better which was the point of A_D's post.

[Angelus_dead]

Right, but they weren't Ranger only buffs. That's my point. So using them to say that Rangers are better because of XXX isn't accurate. It is more accurate to say that anyone that dual-wields is more powerful than THF or S&B.
That's illogical, as already explained.

I'll attempt to explain it again.
1. Rangers get two trees of combat styles automatically. They learn TWF and Archery simply for being rangers, and they're not allowed to swap those feats for anything else.
2. Other classes need to spend feat slots to learn those abilities. Fighters spend bonus slots, and others spend generic slots.
3. Back when TWF and Archery were weaker, Rangers were weaker, because they were locked into that style and couldn't switch to something useful like THF or S&B.
4. Now that TWF and Archery are stronger, Rangers are stronger, because the choices they are forced to make are now good choices.

[Yaga_Nub]

Yeah, but it made rangers better which was the point of A_D's post.

Again, yes it helped some rangers that TWF but it also helps any other character that uses TWF. So the rangers didn't gain over everyone like he was implying. They only gained over all other melees that THF or S&B.

[frugal_gourmet]

Technically the order doesn't matter. All that matters is which type of enemy would be boosted every time you gain a new one.

I'm talking about what to do with existing Ranger builds and how to convert them to the new system. You do not know how the player would've chosen favored enemy bonuses (and don't even know the order of favored enemy feats), so you'd need to just make a guess and let them repsec.

[Aspenor]

I'm talking about what to do with existing Ranger builds and how to convert them to the new system. You do not know how the player would've chosen favored enemy bonuses (and don't even know the order of favored enemy feats), so you'd need to just make a guess and let them repsec.

You could do that, or do it like they did the enhancement system...

You lose all your favored enemies until you spend your one-time only respec tokens....

[Borror0]

Again, yes it helped some rangers that TWF but it also helps any other character that uses TWF.
As A_D already explained you, rangers have to take either of TWF or Archery.

If both suck, rangers suck. If either is a powerful choice, then rangers are (most liekly) a strong class.

[Yaga_Nub]

That's illogical, as already explained.

I'll attempt to explain it again.
1. Rangers get two trees of combat styles automatically. They learn TWF and Archery simply for being rangers, and they're not allowed to swap those feats for anything else.
2. Other classes need to spend feat slots to learn those abilities. Fighters spend bonus slots, and others spend generic slots.
3. Back when TWF and Archery were weaker, Rangers were weaker, because they were locked into that style and couldn't switch to something useful like THF or S&B.
4. Now that TWF and Archery are stronger, Rangers are stronger, because the choices they are forced to make are now good choices.

I love it when you use the word illogical, A_D.

1. We're on the same page.

2. We're still on the same page.

3. Here's where we diverge. Rangers WEREN'T weaker, people just thought they were. And rangers could spend their feats to take THF if they wanted and anyone can S&B.

4. And we diverge again. All TWF users are stronger because TWF is stronger. I'm not worried about Ranged combat but that's still of dubious value in the game. Nowif you mix in the Tempest enhancement then of course Rangers get stronger with TWF than another melee class but that's because of the 10% attack speed for Tempest NOT because of the changes to TWF that affect everyone in the game.

[Aspenor]

oh bah Yaga, your ranger sucks reroll :D

[Angelus_dead]

Again, yes it helped some rangers that TWF but it also helps any other character that uses TWF. So the rangers didn't gain over everyone like he was implying. They only gained over all other melees that THF or S&B.
You are still wrong. Maybe you should try to understand concepts like "relative" and "marginal"?

I will provide a real life example:
I played a ranger back in module 1, and it was pretty weak. I had the TWF and ITWF feats as bonuses, but I didn't use them, because a two-handed weapon gave me more DPS. I didn't have THF feats, and couldn't afford the slots, but it was still better for me to fight two-handed than to try to TWF. (Especially because the only way to equip an offhand weapon was to drag it with the mouse). However, a lot of times I couldn't THF either, and had to S&B to increase my AC and reduce the risk of a single crit taking off 70% of my hp total.

Do I have to take a detour to explain how bad it is to fight with ITWF at BAB 10? BAB 10 grants another swing, but if you don't have GTWF to turn it into a double then it's a major slowdown. And GTWF comes from Ranger 11.

It was like being a nerfed fighter plus evasion. Feat choices had been built into the character class, and because they were weak feats it was a weak class.

But then module 3 came around and GTWF was added. Several other ranger features were boosted, turning ranger into a good class. Originally they were semi-fighter-rogues forced to take bad feats; now, they became semi-fighters forced to take good feats.



4. And we diverge again. All TWF users are stronger because TWF is stronger.
Every other character class had the choice not to have wasted feats on useless TWF.

[gfunk]

But yeah, FE needs the nerf bat....err....the fix bat.

have any numbers to expalin why FE is overpowered relative to the other classes?

Fighters rangers and palis all get speed +10% via either spells, enhancements or capstone, so thats a wash.

Kensai Fighters get improved crit, seeker +4, haste boost, str surge, fighter damage enh and feats to counterbalance favored enemies

Paladins get smiting, divine might, divine favor and extra holy/light damage to counterbalance favored enemies

I think that limiting the shifting of favored enemy feats might be a reasonable idea (i never switch mine around so that wouldn't bother me.. would probably irk the people with builds that have only 2 FE's), but I don't think the + to damage is out of line.

[Yaga_Nub]

As A_D already explained you, rangers have to take either of TWF or Archery IN DnD but since this is DDO they have both.

If both suck, rangers suck. If either is a powerful choice, then rangers are (most liekly) a strong class.

Actually, A_D didn't explain anything in terms of rangers having to take either/or. The guidebooks did that long ago. So what is wrong with Rangers being a strong class? In DnD they are a strong class and now after some tweaking they are a strong class. Ranged still blows so we don't have to worry about Rangers being overpowered at all by the weapon feats. There of course is still the issue with FEs and a few other things that could be discussed of course.

[Yaga_Nub]

oh bah Yaga, your ranger sucks reroll :D

Nevah!!! 28 pointers FTW!!!

[Yaga_Nub]

You are still wrong. Maybe you should try to understand concepts like "relative" and "marginal"?

I will provide a real life example:
I played a ranger back in module 1, and it was pretty weak. I had the TWF and ITWF feats as bonuses, but I didn't use them, because a two-handed weapon gave me more DPS. I didn't have THF feats, and couldn't afford the slots, but it was still better for me to fight two-handed than to try to TWF. (Especially because the only way to equip an offhand weapon was to drag it with the mouse). However, a lot of times I couldn't THF either, and had to S&B to increase my AC and reduce the risk of a single crit taking off 70% of my hp total.

Do I have to take a detour to explain how bad it is to fight with ITWF at BAB 10? BAB 10 grants another swing, but if you don't have GTWF to turn it into a double then it's a major slowdown. And GTWF comes from Ranger 11.

It was like being a nerfed fighter plus evasion. Feat choices had been built into the character class, and because they were weak feats it was a weak class.

But then module 3 came around and GTWF was added. Several other ranger features were boosted, turning ranger into a good class. Originally they were semi-fighter-rogues forced to take bad feats; now, they became semi-fighters forced to take good feats.



Every other character class had the choice not to have wasted feats on useless TWF.

But we're not talking about then we're talking about now. Don't live in the past Gimp, it can only hurt you.

[Angelus_dead]

Actually, A_D didn't explain anything in terms of rangers having to take either/or. The guidebooks did that long ago. So what is wrong with Rangers being a strong class?
What's wrong is that you made a claim rangers haven't been improved much since DDO originally came out:

The only huge boost that the Ranger has received is the Tempest Enhancement. Otherwise they still play the same as they did when DDO first started
That is a false statement.

Even without Tempest, Rangers do not play like they did when DDO first started.
1. Originally: TWF is weak, so Rangers play like a weakling.
2. Currently: TWF is strong, so Ranger play strong.

When DDO was new, TWF was a trap to lure players into wasting their time with offhand weapons instead of simply killing with a Greataxe. Obviously, that doesn't "play the same" now.

[Borror0]

/snip
Not sure why I felt I should waste my time on this...

[Yaga_Nub]

Not sure why I felt I should waste my time on this...

Because you're as bored as I am.

[Yaga_Nub]

What's wrong is that you made a claim rangers haven't been improved much since DDO originally came out:

I also claimed that Ranger have been strong since day 1.

That is a false statement.

Even without Tempest, Rangers do not play like they did when DDO first started.
1. Originally: TWF is weak, so Rangers play like a weakling.
2. Currently: TWF is strong, so Ranger play strong.

When DDO was new, TWF was a trap to lure players into wasting their time with offhand weapons instead of simply killing with a Greataxe. Obviously, that doesn't "play the same" now.

And this is where experience trumps opinion AD. Rangers have been ubah since Day 1, but it actually took skill to play them. It was much more simple to swing a greataxe, very true, but it wasn't more fun or a waste of time.

[gfunk]

Chances many numbers quite significantly. Mostly the Tempest III Rangers.

well, numbers have been reported to be quite different based on if they are additive/multiplicative and including lag/frame rates. (bearing in mind that devs have denied that the numbers are additive)

say for example we are looking at a tempest ranger hasted with multiplicitive stacking
1.1*1.25 = 137.5%
or additive it would be:
1.1+0.25 = 135 %
difference is 2.5%. The reality of the numbers seems to be contaminated too much by connection speed, but I wouldn't call a theoretical 2.5% to be very significant.

with a hasted and haste-boosted pure alacrity fighter it should be somewhere between:
1.1*1.25*1.3 = 178.75%
and additive
1.1+.25+.3 = 170
The 8.75% variation found here is fairly significant, but still, we must make some sort of estimate if we are to argue about relative dps.

Interestingly, most healing amp's work precisely multiplicative, except the finger necklace which is additive (As can easily be tested when eating food in the tavern). As this isn't impacted by connection speed, I think it is a reasonable example of how the devs have applied certain % bonuses in the game.

Personally, I believe the numbers are multiplicative and that people are just having trouble with counting accurately and with getting constant connection speeds.

I stacked haste boosts and alacrity numbers in the same way that healing amplification numbers stack. The margain of error decreases in those calculations when considering only non - hasted (spell) numbers.

If we want to just throw up our hands and say "we can't compare any of these things because we don't know the speed numbers" then we really don't have any basis for making claims that the various classes should have their dps boosted/nerfed.

[The_Phenx]

And this is where experience trumps opinion AD. Rangers have been ubah since Day 1, but it actually took skill to play them. It was much more simple to swing a greataxe, very true, but it wasn't more fun or a waste of time.

True there has been a dwarven str based twf kopesh ranger in my guild since mod 3...and hes always been very strong.

[Angelus_dead]

True there has been a dwarven str based twf kopesh ranger in my guild since mod 3...and hes always been very strong.
Mod 3 != Day 1

[Aesop]

They could nerf it and follow D&D rules at the same time: only give the full +8 damage to one of your favorite enemies. The others get +6, +4, or just +2, depending on their order in the list.

I think the reason they went with what they did was because its easier to code and for players to understand.

That's the reason for the specifics of the suggestion I made.

I could see a Favored Enemy IV Enhancement and I think a +10 is sufficient to the task of giving Rangers a large boost to Favored Enemies.

At level 20 They will be at +10 base + Enhancements which could be anywhere from +13 to +16 depending on future capstones

Aesop

[gfunk]

I think the reason they went with what they did was because its easier to code and for players to understand.

That's the reason for the specifics of the suggestion I made.

I could see a Favored Enemy IV Enhancement and I think a +10 is sufficient to the task of giving Rangers a large boost to Favored Enemies.

At level 20 They will be at +10 base + Enhancements which could be anywhere from +13 to +16 depending on future capstones

Aesop

For mod 9, both str based and dex based rangers do considerably less damage then Kensai fighters vs non-favored enemies.

Dex based rangers do slightly less damage then non-haste boosted fighters vs favored enemies.

Str based rangers do slightly more damage than non-haste boosted fighters vs. favored enemies

Haste boosted kensai fighters do more damage then any of these.

With any lowering of the bonus to favored enemies, rangers (both dex and str based) would do less damage then a fighter even when fighting favored enemies. That doesn't seem appropriate to me.

[Borror0]

I have the same fear. The 2/4/6/8/10 progression makes more sense to me.

However, the current 10/10/10/10/10 progression could use some nerfing. At best, it would leave more room to flavor/customization in their enhancements.

[bobbryan2]

I have the same fear. The 2/4/6/8/10 progression makes more sense to me.

However, the current 10/10/10/10/10 progression could use some nerfing. At best, it would leave more room to flavor/customization in their enhancements.

Nah... other classes are finally gettin' enhancements to make their DPS more worthwhile. Favored Enemy doesn't really need to be touched.

[Hadrian]

Based upon that, an evasion tank is still the safer play here, in my opinion.

Well, I can't argue that it is not safer, but whether or not its better might be up for debate. We'll have to see how things work out, but currently I plan to make a pure fighter soon after the new mod goes live and we get a good sense of how things are working.

Yes, it will be a grind to get some of these items, but I beleive the result will be a very enjoyable character for me.

[EinarMal]

I think the reason they went with what they did was because its easier to code and for players to understand.

That's the reason for the specifics of the suggestion I made.

I could see a Favored Enemy IV Enhancement and I think a +10 is sufficient to the task of giving Rangers a large boost to Favored Enemies.

At level 20 They will be at +10 base + Enhancements which could be anywhere from +13 to +16 depending on future capstones

Aesop

Honestly with the current fighter upgrades they are fine relative to Rangers. They have much higher to hit so can always have power attack on, more hit points, and better tactics like stunning blow (which with power surge and Kensai should have a very high DC).

They don't really need to change FE damage. They have done a pretty good job of evening out DPS in my opinion. Paladins and Fighters are both easily comparable to Rangers in the DPS department.

[Aesop]

For mod 9, both str based and dex based rangers do considerably less damage then Kensai fighters vs non-favored enemies.

Dex based rangers do slightly less damage then non-haste boosted fighters vs favored enemies.

Str based rangers do slightly more damage than non-haste boosted fighters vs. favored enemies

Haste boosted kensai fighters do more damage then any of these.

With any lowering of the bonus to favored enemies, rangers (both dex and str based) would do less damage then a fighter even when fighting favored enemies. That doesn't seem appropriate to me.

hmm... ok

I think some of the inflation is starting to get to me.

The game is starting to not resemble the game I thought it was...

Aesop