PvP? No thanks, and here's why

[Red_Knight]

Ok, I've had something bugging me for over a year now. It's the way PvP is implemented in DDO. Now, I'm not a PvP hater or anything, but I do dislike open PvP. As such when I heard of the bar room brawl areas I thought "cool". They even placed brawl areas in various zones. In fact, one could almost suspect they did that so each level range has their own place to PvP. This brings me to my gripe. Why is it the only tavern anyone goes to for brawling is Wayward Lobster?

Now, here me out for a moment. The harbor is a low level zone. Realistically there's no real need to go back there past level four or five at the most. The wayward lobster thus should be a place where low levels can do PvP without worrying about having some level 16 come along and one shot them. High level players attacking low level players in PvP is not fun. That's called ganking. This is a prime way that new players get turned off from a potentially fun aspect of the game.

The whole idea of player vs player battles is that a human controlled character is a more challenging opponant then a computer controlled character. For this to be true the battle field has to be leveled. That means no one person has an obvious advantage that can't be overcome. Player vs Player should come down to player skill, not who's higher level. Here's an example. I'm on a level 3 character, and another level 3 agrees to dual me. Just as we start some level 16 warrior type comes up and one shots both of us. How is that fun for everyone? How does that encourage people to participate? In a moment I will do some very basic math. I will then give max HP and total after one hit. See if you can figure out where the challenge for that guy was.

Base AC: 10
Dex bonus to AC: +3
Wisdom bonus to AC: +4
Dodge bonus to AC: +1
Armor Bonus to AC: +1
Centered bonus to AC: +1
Enchanted bonus to Hit Points: 5
Total Armor Class: 20

We all know high level warrior types pretty much ignore any AC of 20. It'd pretty much take a natural 1 to miss if your a level 16 fighter type. Not bloody likely.

Level: 3
Hit Points per level: 8
Feat bonus to hit points: 30
Total Hit Points: 62

Hmm, that's pretty decent for a level three character. Both armor class wise and hit points wise. Right? Well now, how about damage taken in less then a second? Two attacks, first does 46 damage and the second does 43 damage. Remember, that's in about one second's time too and with a virtually non-existent chance to miss.

And that happens routinely in Wayward Lobster. High level players see a low level trying to fight someone their level, and gank them. Sure just targeting someone doesn't tell you their level, but hitting Z when you target them does. How hard is it to con a person to see if it's a worthy challenge? And if the level 16's think there is only one place to PvP and that's the low level area... Why should anyone bother trying to PvP at all?

In closing, I would like to ask one very simple question. Why is it no one ever actually uses the other brawl areas?

[Lithic]

Personally i dont like the brawl pits unless Im in there with a group of friends messing around.

Having said that, the guy who one shotted you could easily not have known your level. When you are in there, you tend to just hit "closest target" charge them and swing away (or hit em from far away if you are ranged/caster). Theres no time to check their level as they (or others) could charge YOU.

I think the reason people pick the lobster is that its an open square with a hole in the middle. Much more interesting of an arena than any of the others. Or at least that may have been the original reason for its popularity. Now a days, everyone knows that if you want to PvP, you go to the lobster. Gonna be hard to change that without artifical level limits.

[Ministry]

Well, my loot tables suck, like no one could ever imagine, so I'm not risking much by saying that this is one big area that I think Turbine/DDO messed up.

The PVP thing just sucks.

Now, firstly... I have never lost in PVP, but I have only done it a handful of times and in unique situations... to test a build or to shut up a loud mouth... or just for fun with guildies, so I'm not saying this from a position of someone who is bitter.

Each tiny little area is set up for certain builds.

The Inn in House J is set up for sniping mages, the Wayward Lobster is set up for Clerics with Searing Light, and so on and so on.

IMO, PVP should be in a zone where there is a map like the new 3 barrel cove where people of all levels can go and take advantage of multiple areas and types of terrain, etc.

Then there should be smaller, but similar type zones for different levels. 1-5, 6-10, and 11+.

This once again points to my great experience with COH/COV, where there were zone... whole zones for PVP, back in the good old days.

Having all of Stormreach be PVP would be stupid, having these tiny little cramped Inns as the only PVP area is just downright messed up.

In theory, I can see how someone thought it would be cool... just like in the good old days... tavern brawling, etc., but in game, it's just not fun at all.

The vast majority of players have rarely stepped in the PVP pits, as they are really the providence for bored little children who just hang out there and mess it up for people who honestly would like to have fun with friends, testing a build, etc... Please children, just go to WOW already.

Anyways... Turbine, let us have character appearance changes / mods / looks / generators like COH / COV and give us some PVP zones.

Until then, I will just stick to the quests and beat up the big, bad ole mobs.

:)

[Clay]

One think i like to do is a little mockery...

I usually send a tell, if I am in the PvP trying to test something out with a low level character. If i was in the situation You describe in the OP, i would send this:

"Wow, you are so uber. U are lvl 16 and are able to kill a lvl 3 wizard. I hope that if I play long enough that when I get to lvl 16 i will be as good as you!

Seriously dude, my friend and I are simply trying to test some stuff out, go find a real challenge."

If he send back an apology, I drop it and leave it at that.

If he remains in the pit, killing lvl 3s over and over, report him for harassment. And don't doubt for a moment that that is NOT harassment. Yes, its the PvP pit, but it is still harassment.

Or, if you have the option, grab a lvl 16 wiz/sorc, go back, flesh to stone him, enervate, enervate, enervate, curse (if wiz) and tell all the people around not to kill the griefer, log out and come back with your lvl 3 and have fun. :cool:

One other option: If he is online, just send a tell to Ministry and he will come and lend a hand by kicking the griefer's sorry butt all over the place.

[satya_sai]

The lobster is the main gathering point for pvp on our whole server.
Generally, I think most people like it there because of the layout.
It's one of the only areas in which you can stand on the platform and see 90% of the action and have two levels of pvp floor on which to work.
Most people who know pvp know that this is where people go to gather as well.

With that said,
If you want to low level challenge people in pvp just tell those around you.
People occasionally go in there and blast everything but if they know you're there and a lowbie that wants to be left alone they will generally leave you alone.
And if they don't, they generally get the beat down from everyone else.

[Ringos]

A wise Elf once said of PVP...'It's not a good idea to kill someone you may adventure with later on.' (or something to that effect) :)

[Red_Knight]

I have a feeling that would never happen in DDO. Think about it this way, how badly did people cry foul over how Fascinate worked before? Don't you think people would cry foul even louder if casters had access to insta-kill spells in PvP? Sure they allow a fort save usually, but not every class gets good fort saves. how about cloud kill, would you want that in PvP? Consider it. If a unscrupulous caster filled the entire area with cloud kill, what chance would anyone else ever stand?

I just think they should have separate areas for various level brackets.

[Ringos]

Agreed. Limiting casters of all types on what they can bring to battle doesn't make much sense when it comes to really seeing who would win a fight.

[Fishy]

Agreed. Limiting casters of all types on what they can bring to battle doesn't make much sense when it comes to really seeing who would win a fight.
I agree. Gimping casters to "level" the playing field isn't the answer. Just make it so that a caster is also affected by his own AOE DPS spells. The current system hurts sorcerors the most, since they can't easily swap in PvP-oriented spells. Anyway, it's D&D, classes aren't supposed to be balanced in terms of killing ability.

[Merkinsal]

I agree. Gimping casters to "level" the playing field isn't the answer. Just make it so that a caster is also affected by his own AOE DPS spells. The current system hurts sorcerors the most, since they can't easily swap in PvP-oriented spells. Anyway, it's D&D, classes aren't supposed to be balanced in terms of killing ability.

Gimped? Huh. Maybe its worth going back and trying it again. I never found it much of a challenge on my sorc before.

[DoctorWhofan]

;)
A wise Elf once said of PVP...'It's not a good idea to kill someone you may adventure with later on.' (or something to that effect) :)

Are you quoting me? :p;):D

Seriously, this is how I feel about PvP. And after experiancing Westfall/Crossroads in WoW, I hate it! I wish it wasn't even in the game, but DDO's does not interfere with the actual game, so it's ok, I suppose.

[theANTItommy]

to OP. agreed,
i won't even go into PvP (even though i want to sooooo badly) b/c the one time i did was it nothing but maxed out toons, and yes i was one shoted. the way i see it, and noticed this within the first few days of starting my account (and i bet i'm not the only one)- PvP is only for capped or close-to-capped toons who are bored with in game content or not able to find a good pug (or maybe waiting on guildies, i dunno). with that said, just take it for a loss untill you cap your toon then go and bust some heads with all that buily tup aggression you've been hoarding for the last 15 levels

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I agree with you 100%.

I brought this up before, and everyone just said "we like the Lobster's layout better."

Yeah ...right.

From what I've seen, they just like having lots of people to beat up on.

But in their defense, there a not a lot of people wanting to do PvP at the same time. So the only way to do it at all is go where there is a lot of people doing it.

I do like the zone PvP matches.....but you need to get enough people to make it worth while.

PvP can be fun in DDO.....but usually I find it too difficult to find a lvl appropriate group and the right environment to make it fun for all.

[Ringos]

;)

Are you quoting me? :p;):D

Seriously, this is how I feel about PvP. And after experiancing Westfall/Crossroads in WoW, I hate it! I wish it wasn't even in the game, but DDO's does not interfere with the actual game, so it's ok, I suppose.

I said ELF!

:)

[TheMoose]

The lobster is the most convinient PVP area of the game because I feel that when someone zaps you, you dont have to climb ladders after ladders to res.. so it's quicker action... (For those that are looking for some real fun... try the arena with 12 casters/clerics.... we have a blast in there)

The lowbee zapping thing, I agree... high lvl's shouldn't pick on the small ones... but sometimes they get caught on the cross fire.

What we usually do when we wanna test out build's we go into the other taverns... and it's easy enough.... Just becaues YOU feel that you have the right to fight in the lobster un-interupted doesn't mean that turbine should implement patches and fixes to prevent that.. There are plenty of other places to battle

If you're a lowbee and want to have a lvl 3 vs lvl 3 just politely ask the high levels around not to squash you.. and most people are good enough not to blow you up...

The lobster has become a free for all pvp area... I don't mind it because I've made some great friends in there.....

Also, I dont hold anything personal against people in the lobster.. trust me... I've had battles with others before that turned into name calling.. but in a quest.. were in the same team trying to get the same thing done at the end of the day..

I'm also up for a challenge... specially when I'm the MoosenCrispy... wwwuhhaahhahaa

[Inspire]

We Need A New Tavern Brawl Arena...

[TheMoose]

In closing, I would like to ask one very simple question. Why is it no one ever actually uses the other brawl areas?

I have an idea... how about you start to use other taverns in hopes that others will follow??

[Ministry]

I have an idea... how about you start to use other taverns in hopes that others will follow??

Or just stand there and wait, or start without any competion... Can't lose that way.

:)

[sigtrent]

The best thing about PvP is it lets you very precicely test combat mechanics.

The brawls are also just kind of fun in a light hearted way. Its not even remotely competative or strategic most of the time, just a messy madness that can be fun at times.

[Durack]

I have an idea... how about you start to use other taverns in hopes that others will follow??

lets start an all cleric PvP match in the Pheonix on thursdays night and shake some roleplayers up... :D

[Ministry]

lets start an all cleric PvP match in the Pheonix on thursdays night and shake some roleplayers up... :D

Ummm... if they know you at all, they ain't showing up.

F - orget that Durack, just go solo some more ***** and make videos... they crack me up.

:)

[Uamhas]

You are so cute, trying to deny that you're a roleplayer at heart.:rolleyes:
lets start an all cleric PvP match in the Pheonix on thursdays night and shake some roleplayers up... :D

[KatanAztar]

You are so cute, trying to deny that you're a roleplayer at heart.:rolleyes:

Yep, i smell denial too.

[Badsign]

Coming from a medium serious PVP'r from World of Warcraft, you guys dont have any pvp, you have small areas where certain characters get to murder other characters in a very hectic and confused fashion. real pvp requires pvp balanced classes and areas with goals and environments that encourage strategy and tactics, nothing i have seen in my VERY limited experience with DDO suggests that you will ever have real pvp without an extraordinary amount of work from the coders and Devs. not taking a side, one way or another here as i didnt come here to pvp, just stating some observations.

Thanks for reading my 2 cents!

Badsign

[DoctorWhofan]

I said ELF!

:)

Trissa IS a Elf!:D

[Ringos]

Trissa IS a Elf!:D

Oops...thought she was Drow!