Cannith Crafting More Info + Recap

[NoWorries]

To help with the questions and to get everything back into one place, here is a consolidation thread with some additional info. On a big system like this, not all information will be available yet as we are discussing the system while the work is ongoing.

Cannith Crafting Recipe Experience

The 50% success mark will now be 15 levels below the recipe as opposed to the 10 levels it is currently.
To go along with that, players will now be able to craft recipes they have at least 1% chance of success, instead of being limited to 50% and above.

These two changes should allow a bit more flexibility in what they are trying to craft.

Trinkets

The current plan for trinkets is to allow any of the non-damaging scaling effects to take the place of the Prefix and Suffix. Any of the non-damaging insightful scaling effects can go into the Extra slot. It is still being decided on what special (non-scaling effects will go on trinkets and where)

Runearms

Don't have further information on this time, addressing that here as I know it will be a question. Information will be provided as we get to further direction on that point. It is mainly a matter of decided how to adjust the runearms to work with the new system and which effects they will get to craft.

Flex Shards

The plan is to not launch with flex shards. We think there is a good balance that can be found between Random, Named, Crafted loot and flex shards will knock some of that out of the way. The Cannith system will be a bit different from before and some of the power and versatility is tough to see without getting your hands on the system.

Artificer/Mark of Making bonuses

These will still apply as they do currently and players are still restricted to the level cap (so these abilities will not push a character above the 400 level mark)


Other Things (not directly Cannith, but do affect Cannith)

DR breakers

We are looking into adding DR breaking into good/evil/etc. That would be a retroactive change that would most likely take effect on existing items as well as items going forward, same would apply to the effects from Cannith. When this is added back in, the negative level for using alignment based DR breakers you don't match with will also be added back in.

Attributes

There has been talk about attributes being too low at lower levels. That is a scale that we can look at and tinker with, which would also change items that exist with these scaling effects and would change what came out of Cannith crafting as well.


And as always, anything and everything is subject to change for any number of reasons.

[NoWorries]

All items created with old Cannith Crafting will remain as is when the new system goes in. However, all of the old recipes will be gone at that time.


Single School

Cannith will be down to a single school - currently know as... Cannith!
The school will have a level cap of 400, and all XP will carry over from the original 3 schools.
The lower levels of the school have had their xp curve adjusted. Here are some XP values for getting to different levels in the new school (could change before launch)


Level 50: 1,256
Level 100: 7,313
Level 150: 30,151
Level 260: 245,580 <- where current maxed out crafters will end up.
Level 340: 472,752
Level 400: 650,040


Crafting Difficulty

Minimum Level shards will be their level x 10 for their crafting difficulty (which the exception of ML 1 which will be difficulty 1). Unbound versions will be their level x 10 + 50.


Example:
ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 200 difficulty
Unbound ML 20 shard would be a recipe of 250 difficulty


The plan is to divide the scaling effects from random loot into 3 crafting groups.


The lowest group would be difficulty 1, the second group would be difficulty 50, and the final group would be difficulty 100.
Unbound would be +150 so 150, 200, 250
Insightful would be +175 so 175, 225, 275
which means unbound insightful would be 325, 375, 425


Since non scaling effects also don't have insightful versions, they will fall in different places along the crafting curve. The above is for the normal scaling effects only.


Crafting Groups for Scaling Effects:

Group 1:
Guards
False Life
Wizardry
Enchantment Resist
Illusion Resist
Poison Ward
Disease Ward
Will Save
Reflex Save
Fortitude Save
Damage Resistances (fire, acid, cold, etc.)
Skills
Fortification
Incite
Diversion


Group 2 (50):
Negative/Repair/Healing Amp
Absorptions
Parrying
Dodge Bonus
Accuracy
Deadly
Seeker
Shield Bashing
Armor-Piercing
Spell Focuses
Tendon Slice
Vertigo
Stunning
Shatter
Stat Poisons
Spell Pen
Spell Powers
Weapon Damages
Creature Banes


Group 3(100):
Attributes
Spell Saves
Resistance
Riposte
Sheltering
Doublestrike
Doubleshot
Assassinate
Combat Mastery
Melee/Ranged Alacrity
Potency
Weapon Crit Damages
Weapon DRs (good, evil etc)
Spell Lores
Vampirism


Natural Armor is considered insightful so it would show up in the first insightful tier.


Exclusive Effects:

Below is a list of effects exclusive to both Random loot and Cannith crafting. Note: This does not include clickies.

Random:
Vorpal
Speed
Paralyzing
UMD boost
Banishing
Disruption
Smiting
Destruction
Ghostbane (being readded into the random loot system)


Cannith:
Metalline
Alligned
Everbright
Blueshine
Ghost Touch
Invulnerability
Vengeful
Unbalancing
Twilight
Lesser Arcane Spell Dexterity
Songblade
Slowburst/Improved Slowburst
Regeneration
Persuasion
Fearsome
Silver Flame/Sacred/Eternal Faith
Efficient Metamagic
Blindness Immunity
True Seeing


Consideration is being made of adding Good Luck into random loot and having it be craftable. Same goes with Shattermantle. UWA will likely be added to random loot.


Single Essence

There will be a single essence going forward, no lesser or greater, just a single essence. The exchange rate will be 1 greater to 1 of the new essence or 5 to 1 Lesser to new essence.

The new essence will stack to at least 10,000.


Removers

There will be a singular remover which will award a range of essences based on the ML of the item being deconstructed. We are also looking into Mass Deconstruction, so there is a possibility of an even better system such as a deconstruct all. We are not at the point to say how possible this will be yet.


Disjunction will still exist and will prep the item for new Cannith crafting (items previously disjuncted with the old system would need to have disjunction applied again to set them up to be used with the new system).


Collectables

Collectables will be used in all the crafting recipes. Existing collectables will be used, but to help fill out the range of collectables, new ones will be created that drop in the higher levels and drop in both FR and Eberron. Exactly which collectables and how many per recipe is still being designed.

Purified Dragon Shards will still be used as well.

We are creating a scaling treasure system for collectables. The tiers will be broken down into 5 level ranges and the collectable device in a dungeon will automatically check the level of the dungeon and pull from the correct tier. So if you were to run a level 5 quest on normal, you'd get the level 1-5 tier collectables, if you ran it on hard, you'd get the 6-10 tier collectables. And if you were to run those on epic difficulty, you'd get the higher tiers as well. We will be adding collectables to FR as well, with the Eberron related lore ones removed (so no Soarwood for example).

[NoWorries]

Power of Cannith Crafting

Random Loot has a normal range of effect powers that can drop at a given minimum level. Then there is an extra lucky range of slightly more power. This is marked by having Masterful Craftsmanship on the item which indicates at least one of your effects is at the maximum of the normal range or slightly higher.


The plan is to have Cannith Crafting be the top of the normal random loot range. It is important to us to have a system where Cannith Crafted, Random, and Named Loot is all usable by players. We do not want a system where Cannith overshadows Random loot making it not a true consideration to be used. By holding onto the Masterful Craftsmanship lucky power ranges on Random Loot, it should help Random Loot continue to have a use.


Random Loot chests can go as high as level 40. Cannith Crafting is currently planned to top out at Level 34 Loot. There will be increasingly better Minimum Level 30 shards to be crafted (the recipe an item will state what loot level it represents).


Although Cannith will follow the slot restrictions of effects that Random Loot has, a player does get to choose which effects go on the slots of the item. This is a big advantage of random loot where you have to luck out in the RNG to get all of the effects you want at the powers you want. The system will still have a Prefix and Suffix. If a Mark of House Cannith is used, it will have a 3rd extra effect just like Random Loot.


Finally, there is a chance that some of the clickies that no longer drop in Random Loot could be added to Cannith in some form.


How will it Work

The current plan is that a blank item will have the minimum level crafted onto the item. Then effect shards will be crafted on which will automatically get their power set to the right amount for the minimum level. No longer will you need Strength +1 and Strength +3 shards, just a Strength shard and the power will be set for you. This is a cleaner system as there is no advantage to the player to putting on a lower powered effect at a given ML, and it reduces ways a player may mess up an item.


The + Enhancement value will also be directly tied into the minimum level and there will no longer be Shards of Potential.

Combined with the fewer number of Essences, this system should be much more streamlined to use.

Deconstructing is very time consuming and clunky at this point in time. We know this. The problem is what the crafting system is capable of doing. We don't know to what amount we can alleviate this pain, but it is something we will be looking into as we move forward with updating Cannith Crafting.


Other Considerations

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

I think a lot of people don't like the "no flexible shards" change.

But other than that it is looking like a pretty good system.

In particular, as far as effects that are too low at low levels.........FORTIFICATION. PLEASE look at this.

[JOTMON]

1. Flexible crafting?... or are we going to be stuck with limited choice options.. like Charisma limited to neck, cloaks, rings.. when I want to build it onto bracers..
Custom crafting isn't very custom when we are limited to the same slots as the randmgen drops..

2. Bag deposit box stack sizes.. they suck.. and need to be increased dramatically.. 100,000+.... would hope to see this increased to 1 mil...
Especially if you want me to spend real money to expand it.. I end up having to empty my bag deposit box into my gargantuan and colossal bags when it should be the other way..
also please fix the stack sizes.. things like the inspired quarter shards don't stack.. at all.. in the bag deposit box because it is based ion inventory stack size , but do in my bags...

3. Potion/wand/scroll crafting.. with increasing level tiers and even higher UMD tiers to use for non-aligned classes..

4. Mass deconstruction.. a fast deconstruction system..

5. I disagree with 3rd effect crafting being available from Cannith crafting.. I believe that should be innately part of the randomgen drops and only found on randomgens..deconstruct the randomgen and the 3rd slot sticks.. like the augment slots...
...so essentially I would have said you cant craft insightful.. that comes from the found gear... you can deconstruct the found gear and build around the insightful.. but you cant craft it..

[Eldried]

Sounds promising!

Could you tell us what level 34 loot means exactly? Whats the best ability score(attribute) you could get with cannith crafting? +15 and 6 insight?

[Krelar]

Sounds promising!

Could you tell us what level 34 loot means exactly? Whats the best ability score(attribute) you could get with cannith crafting? +15 and 6 insight?

This ^ I feel like a lot of us aren't quite sure what the level for different stat values is in the current system. If we had just a couple examples it would help us better judge where things are landing. (So for stats what would be +6, +10, +12, +max? ML's be for example?)

[Nuclear_Elvis]

...Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

NoWorries, this statement makes a huge Assumption that we the Player Community are accepting the New Loot System as-is and that no changes would be necessary. However, many of us are in disagreement with the Design changes that the Developers made in the New Loot System to isolate Abilities into specific gear by prefix and suffixes, which then further isolates New Cannith Crafting into those same slots.

You are trying to argue that the logic is to preserve Named Items. That's not the argument. The argument is - New Loot System is not acceptable in its rigid format.

We need a re-think on New Loot System, not an after-the-fact justification to uphold the Named Loot Red Herring to convince us that "change is good."

[Aelonwy]

Thank you for finally responding to the DR bug in New Random loot.

Will these issues also be resolved and thus not create problems in future Cannith Crafting:

We are working on some fixes for Spell Focus Mastery for update 32.

We are aware of this issue with Guard effects. The damage dealt should be scaling based on the under the hood power values of the item but currently are instead always outputting the base amount (despite the tooltip of the effects displaying what should be the correct damage values). I'll and let you know when we have any updates on resolving it.

This is an issue that we are aware of. It's not just limited to repeaters but is actually true of scaling damage effects on all ranged weapons which use ammo currently. Off the top of my head, while at home, I don't recall whether it affects thrown weapons but I do not believe it does. Regardless, I'll update you when progress is made in resolving it.

I thought I had read something about handwraps also experiencing the same xd6 damage not scaling but I could not find a quote. Also does anyone know if there is still an issue with using the New Random Loot for replenishing high energy cells for heroic greensteel? Was that resolved?

[Aelonwy]

As far as collectibles go... I would very much like an answer to how changes in collectibles dropping might affect the small/medium/large Eberron Dragonshard Fragments - these and NOT tomes are my go to source for Purified Eberron Dragonshards because tome drops are next to nonexistent for me.

[Aelonwy]

For me the entire Flexibility issue could be resolved by allowing ALL stats Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha, and also fortification but that is a lesser issue, to be crafted on rings. To be fair I'd also be fine with the exact same to drop on random loot thus not requiring flexible shards per se but instead making the New Random loot just this little bit more flexible.

[Greantun]

For me the entire Flexibility issue could be resolved by allowing ALL stats Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha, and also fortification but that is a lesser issue, to be crafted on rings. To be fair I'd also be fine with the exact same to drop on random loot thus not requiring flexible shards per se but instead making the New Random loot just this little bit more flexible.

Though looks like that is what they are going to do with Trinkets

The current plan for trinkets is to allow any of the non-damaging scaling effects to take the place of the Prefix and Suffix. Any of the non-damaging insightful scaling effects can go into the Extra slot. It is still being decided on what special (non-scaling effects will go on trinkets and where)

At least there would be 1 item (maybe 2 if the runearm goes the same way), where you can put any of the things that don't do damage into a trinket. That would be a flexible item then.

[dunklezhan]

So if I want to make a ML10 resistance item with an unbound group 3 effect that will require a crafting level of 150 to do the shard, and then a crafting level of 250 to make an unbound resistance effect? In fact, I could want to make a ML1 resistance item, and that still would require a crafting of 250 to make the unbound resistance effect?

Is that right?

That's going to lead to confusion and frustration if implications not explained fully, I reckon, but it does bring meaning to reaching those higher level crafting levels so that's ok I think.

Clearly need to be thinking "can I make the effect I want" before we think "how powerful an item can I put it on".

Difficult to visualise without getting our hands on it, as NW said.

Edit: I also still think its a mistake that we can't make unbound insightful group threes by virtue of it not being a level that's possible to reach. There are already unique effects between the systems and you've limited the max ML effects - Cannith already therefore suffers in comparative power level despite the resource and time commitment, there's simply no need to also limit the effects common to both.

[dunklezhan]

Finally, there is a chance that some of the clickies that no longer drop in Random Loot could be added to Cannith in some form.

Yes please, I would very much like this.

[btolson]

Other Considerations

Why not allow Cannith to put effects in any slot? In the new loot system, Named Items main advantages are that they don't have to follow the slot restriction for effects and get the Quality bonus type for effects. If Cannith also ignores the slot restrictions it takes a way a big aspect of what makes Named Loot special and goes a long way to making Random Loot useless.

Without the ability to find in-place upgrades while leveling, the bolded part is a very strong Con, not a Pro (the exception being at level cap). Those items just end up being a huge hassle, because they force you to swap your entire gearset around every ~2 levels (on top of being generally difficult to obtain in the first place). Without some other form of flexible gear in the game to allow a seamless upgrade path, named items with effects in non-standard places become essentially useless: too much of a liability to carry around for the brief window where they're actually useful.

[Aelonwy]

Though looks like that is what they are going to do with Trinkets


At least there would be 1 item (maybe 2 if the runearm goes the same way), where you can put any of the things that don't do damage into a trinket. That would be a flexible item then.

I suppose. I only have one real artificier though. But at some point in their adventuring careers most of my alts have needed a particular stat crafted on a ring for at least a few levels because I couldn't fit it in around their other items otherwise.

Augments would be a factor if more of the original named items had been given slots.

As far as trinkets go I'm usually using named items already.

[AnEvenNewerNoob]

3. Potion/wand/scroll crafting.. with increasing level tiers and even higher UMD tiers to use for non-aligned classes..

I know it won't make it in for this update, but THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE AWESOME.

Just something to keep in mind. Crafting consumables like pots etc is a staple of most games crafting.

[Franghasea]

Greetings!

It is highly disappointing that flexible shards are not going to be a part of this system. The versatility of Cannith Crafting has always been a prominent feature. With time, effort, and money invested in the process, I still believe that we should be able to craft according to the previous flexibility standards.

DDO's foundation has always been about choices. With this new system, choices are intentionally being removed. Players are now being forced to look for random gear if they want their character to be optimized. Some people don't enjoy Cannith Crafting and some people don't enjoy the quest for random gear. I have yet to find exactly what I am looking for with random gear at a given moment and have to settle for one beneficial effect and one non-beneficial effect, leaving me dissatisfied and somewhat frustrated.

I struggle to understand how adding an additional 140 levels/400k xp to spend time, effort, and money on would not STILL include flexible shards. Give players another choice to make. Those who choose to invest time and effort in Cannith Crafting should have the option to optimize their gear. Those who don't do this will have still have the choice of random and named loot to complete their TR life or final build.

Aside from the important issue above, the Cannith Crafting system improvements seem very well thought out to provide players a more efficient and viable choice for gearing once again.

In closing I ask that flexible shards continue to be included as the cornerstone of Cannith Crafting. Thank you for taking to the time to read this, and for continuing to create and maintain a world that I enjoy spending my game time in.

Franghasea

[Ykt]

2. Bag deposit box stack sizes.. they suck.. and need to be increased dramatically.. 100,000+.... would hope to see this increased to 1 mil...
Especially if you want me to spend real money to expand it.. I end up having to empty my bag deposit box into my gargantuan and colossal bags when it should be the other way..
also please fix the stack sizes.. things like the inspired quarter shards don't stack.. at all.. in the bag deposit box because it is based ion inventory stack size , but do in my bags...

I agree that something needs to be done, but what happens if the Inspired Quarter shards stack up to 100 in the deposit box, and only 1 in your inventory? You click the stack in the deposit box and you end up with an inventory full of shards.

[Arkantios]

Greetings!

It is highly disappointing that flexible shards are not going to be a part of this system. The versatility of Cannith Crafting has always been a prominent feature. With time, effort, and money invested in the process, I still believe that we should be able to craft according to the previous flexibility standards.

DDO's foundation has always been about choices. With this new system, choices are intentionally being removed. Players are now being forced to look for random gear if they want their character to be optimized. Some people don't enjoy Cannith Crafting and some people don't enjoy the quest for random gear. I have yet to find exactly what I am looking for with random gear at a given moment and have to settle for one beneficial effect and one non-beneficial effect, leaving me dissatisfied and somewhat frustrated.

I struggle to understand how adding an additional 140 levels/400k xp to spend time, effort, and money on would not STILL include flexible shards. Give players another choice to make. Those who choose to invest time and effort in Cannith Crafting should have the option to optimize their gear. Those who don't do this will have still have the choice of random and named loot to complete their TR life or final build.

Aside from the important issue above, the Cannith Crafting system improvements seem very well thought out to provide players a more efficient and viable choice for gearing once again.

In closing I ask that flexible shards continue to be included as the cornerstone of Cannith Crafting. Thank you for taking to the time to read this, and for continuing to create and maintain a world that I enjoy spending my game time in.

Franghasea

Yes, please keep the innate flexibility of Cannith Crafting within the system.