Devs: are we ever going to get more illusion spells?

[Qezuzu]

Cause at the moment, as I'm sure you're aware, our sole DC-based Illusion spell is Phantasmal killer. Unless you count Hypnotic Pattern, which a. has an underwhelming effect, and b. causes a horrible screen-overlay effect which means no one uses it because they get squelched for doing so. All other illusion spells are just buffs, and hell there's not a whole lot of those: 2 flavors of concealment and 3 flavors of invisibility. And okay, we got race-restricted Color Spray (and illusion-based Symbol of Stunning/Flame, but as copies as existing spells is it really right to count them)?

Just, not really getting a "Earthen Illusionist" vibe from Deep Gnome. At all. I mean... two spells? Gnomes get +3 illusion DC. Deep Gnome IPL stance gives +3 Illusion DC, +6 to PK DC is pretty good but there's still no reason to build for illusion beyond just taking that IPL stance and AP. Someone interested in DC-casting is still gonna go Necro cause you get a similar single-target at-range insta-kill, but you also get Wail and Circle of Death.

Two (2) spells. TWO. Compare to the nicely fleshed out schools of Necro, or Enchant, or Evoc, which have multiple spells that do lots of things. We have enchant-specced, necro-specced, evo-specced, and conj-specced, even.

But then, for an "illusionist," there's... two spells. I could bind Phant. Killer to Mouse1, and Color Spray to Mouse2, and the entirety of the "illusionist" archetype could fit on my mouse (and if you really want to count Hypnotic Pattern, any mouse worth using has a center button).

Just to reiterate: TWO SPELLS.

Is there ANY sort of plan to introduce more illusion spells? Or is the purpose of the bonuses to illusion DC solely to make insta-kill DC-casters marginally more effective?

[Holymunchkin]

well we are 5/5 now

[nibel]

Heck, compare it to Transmutation, that have Slow, Flesh to Stone and Disintegrate. The only school that is in a worse state than Illusion is Abjuration because of the scaling issues with how HD scales and affect Dismissal/Banishment DC.

Add Color Spray as a level 1 Wizard spell. Also its upgrades, Rainbow Pattern at level 4 and Scintillating Pattern at level 8.

Add Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation as level 6 Wizard spells. Clone 2~3 level 1-4 spells as sub-spells of those, that will be dual-save like PK. Ditto for Greater Shadow Conjuration/Evocation as level 8 Wizard spells, cloning level 5-6 spells.

Also add Weird as a level 9 Wizard spell. Basically, Mass PK, just like Wail of Banshee is a mass Finger of Death.

I would also call for Illusory Wall, but that could require a lot of work with mob AI.

[Holyavatar]

+1,illusion and abjuration spells are both underwhelming right now.

[Heynone]

The only school that is in a worse state than Illusion is Abjuration because of the scaling issues with how HD scales and affect Dismissal/Banishment DC.

Wrong, Divination.

[FranOhmsford]

Wrong, Divination.

Divination is a "roleplay" and "NPC" school of no use to Player Characters in DDO {Every Wizard has access to Lesser Divination Spells anyway in PnP and Greater Divination is basically for DM played Seers!}.


Also: The Psionicist has to be introduced to DDO at some stage and considering Psionicists have 5 Specialities:
Clairsentience
Psychokinesis
Psychometabolism
Psychoportation
and
Telepathy
and one of those - Psychoportation - cannot cover a full Build/Tree for DDO while Telepathy/Clairsentience could be merged into one Tree that would leave DDO with:

Clairsentient Telepath - CC, Buffs to Defenses in the form of knowing where the opponent is going to strike and Melee/Ranged offenses in the form of knowing where the opponent is going to defend.
Psychokineticist - Pure DPS + Kinetic Control {http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spell...ticControl.htm is the 3.5 Arcane Spell version - Seems even more powerful than the 2nd Ed. Psionicist version but probably still would need upgrading by a factor of 10 for DDO}.
Psychometabolist - Defensive Buffs, Shapechanging and Healing

Teleportation/DDoor etc. could be available to all at certain levels

[Morroiel]

Divination is a "roleplay" and "NPC" school of no use to Player Characters in DDO {Every Wizard has access to Lesser Divination Spells anyway in PnP and Greater Divination is basically for DM played Seers!}.


Also: The Psionicist has to be introduced to DDO at some stage and considering Psionicists have 5 Specialities:
Clairsentience
Psychokinesis
Psychometabolism
Psychoportation
and
Telepathy
and one of those - Psychoportation - cannot cover a full Build/Tree for DDO while Telepathy/Clairsentience could be merged into one Tree that would leave DDO with:

Clairsentient Telepath - CC, Buffs to Defenses in the form of knowing where the opponent is going to strike and Melee/Ranged offenses in the form of knowing where the opponent is going to defend.
Psychokineticist - Pure DPS + Kinetic Control {http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spell...ticControl.htm is the 3.5 Arcane Spell version - Seems even more powerful than the 2nd Ed. Psionicist version but probably still would need upgrading by a factor of 10 for DDO}.
Psychometabolist - Defensive Buffs, Shapechanging and Healing

Teleportation/DDoor etc. could be available to all at certain levels

As much as I enjoy psionics in pnp, I think psionics and all psionic based classes should be left out of ddo. Every time it comes up I always think to myself: what does this actually add to the game?. Every time I can't think but of a couple things. We have incomplete classes and incomplete spell lists for the traditional casters - all resources that would be spent on making a psionicist class would be better spent on expanding the spellset for both arcane and divine casters. Also the defining feature of 3.0/3.5 psionicists are a different spell mechanic in terms of power points and required school specialization. Sorcerers are exactly this in ddo. Not to mention that anytime psionics is brought into a campaign there can be major consistency issues in terms of Magic vs Psionics (e.g. dispel magic = dispel psionics or dispel magic != dispel psionics).

[Morroiel]

It is interesting that they decided to change the listed effects from the pnp spell.

(pnp) Stunned, blinded, unconscious {hd limits} vs (ddo)dazed, blinded, silenced {no hd limits}

It will also be interesting to see if sightless / blinded creatures are immune as in the original pnp instance of the spell.

[Nandos]

They could easily move prismatic ray and prismatic spray from evocation to illusion. They seem like illusion spells to begin with. They are beams of light that have effects like other evocation spells.

This would be a nice help to the illusion school without having to create new spells from scratch.

[Holymunchkin]

They could easily move prismatic ray and prismatic spray from evocation to illusion. They seem like illusion spells to begin with. They are beams of light that have effects like other evocation spells.

This would be a nice help to the illusion school without having to create new spells from scratch.

ew

[Aletys]

/signed.

I looked at the iconic Gnome last night, and while there are a few nice enhancements in the racial tree, the lack of offensive illusion spells is pretty sad. Two new spells? One of which appears marginal at best? That's it? While I now understand why there are so many illusion focus items in the new lootgen (nearly all of which have been vendor trash so far), I wouldn't waste my time spec'ing any wizard for Illusion. So, unless this changes, I won't be doing any gnome illusionists.

If I wasn't VIP (therefore get the two new races for free), I would never waste my money buying the new classes if this is all there's going to be.

[Textuality]

I got to admit I totally expected more from U30 spell-wise when it came to enchantment stuff.

[Enoach]

I too logged into Lamannia so I could get a look at the new Iconic to see if it would be a better match for my DC caster playstyle then the Sun Elf.

The enhancements were interesting - and I could see going Divine and gaining some Wizard Spells while taking advantage of the Wisdom enhancements.

But I have concluded that the Deep Gnome is not the direction I wish to go with my Wizard. Primarily because of the lack of spells.

Turbine needs to really put in a bunch (not a handful) of spells to better flesh out ALL the schools and give them a more equal footing.

As for the Divination School it is far more then Role Play... Sure we are not talking Delayed blast Firewall, but there are many useful spells. Some which would help the Arcane Trickster type, some that would help the Arcane Fighter type and some that would help the DC caster types.

Level 1
Critical Strike: For 1 round you gain +1d6 damage, doubled threat range, and +4 on attack rolls to confirm Critical Hit
Golem Strike: You can sneak attack constructs for 1 round
Guided Shot: You ignore distance, cover, concealment penalties with your ranged attacks for 1 round
Insightful Feint: Gain +10 on your next bluff check to feint in combat
Instant Locksmith: Make Disable Device or Open Lock check at +2
Instant Search: Make Search check at +2
Sniper's Shot: No ranged limit on next ranged sneak attack
Spontaneous Search: Instantly Search area as if having taken 10.
Targeting Ray: You and allies are +1 to hit/3 levels against subject

Level 2
Balancing Lorecall: You gain a +4 bonus on Balance Checks
Chain of Eyes, Discern Shapechanger and Marked Object might not have a place in DDO but might be useful in a single quest each that currently exists in DDO


Level 3
Unluck: Subject does 2 rolls and takes the worst one (Possible debuff on saving throws) - I think this is currently called Disadvantage
Assay Spell Resistance: +10 bonus on caster level checks to defeat one creature's spell resistance

[Zebedar]

/signed.


Even just 3-4 additional illusion spells would make a world of difference.

[senanur]

We did highlight that more Illusion spells were needed along with Gnomes release. Devs are silent on this one as obviously it takes lot of time to develop spells.

[Ligraph]

The devs mentioned on Lamannia that they would like to add more illusion spells, but it depends on whether they have time before the u30 release.

I think that's what they said anyways...

[Vellrad]

As much as I enjoy psionics in pnp, I think psionics and all psionic based classes should be left out of ddo. Every time it comes up I always think to myself: what does this actually add to the game?. Every time I can't think but of a couple things. We have incomplete classes and incomplete spell lists for the traditional casters - all resources that would be spent on making a psionicist class would be better spent on expanding the spellset for both arcane and divine casters. Also the defining feature of 3.0/3.5 psionicists are a different spell mechanic in terms of power points and required school specialization. Sorcerers are exactly this in ddo. Not to mention that anytime psionics is brought into a campaign there can be major consistency issues in terms of Magic vs Psionics (e.g. dispel magic = dispel psionics or dispel magic != dispel psionics).

Psionics would still be better addition than s***locks.

Anyway, back to illusion topic, Illusion school spells are those that needs to be used with creativity each time you cast them, those that do damage/kill/CC/whatever are the boring representation of school that can be converted to video game.
The true purpose of illusion magic is to be creative and to suprise everyone else arround the table with weird and unexpected way to to solve problems.
Sure, some easy spells could be added, but the best and most fun stuff can't really fit into a video game.

And no converting other spells to different schools. Just no.

[FranOhmsford]

I too logged into Lamannia so I could get a look at the new Iconic to see if it would be a better match for my DC caster playstyle then the Sun Elf.

The enhancements were interesting - and I could see going Divine and gaining some Wizard Spells while taking advantage of the Wisdom enhancements.

But I have concluded that the Deep Gnome is not the direction I wish to go with my Wizard. Primarily because of the lack of spells.

Turbine needs to really put in a bunch (not a handful) of spells to better flesh out ALL the schools and give them a more equal footing.

As for the Divination School it is far more then Role Play... Sure we are not talking Delayed blast Firewall, but there are many useful spells. Some which would help the Arcane Trickster type, some that would help the Arcane Fighter type and some that would help the DC caster types.

Level 1
Critical Strike: For 1 round you gain +1d6 damage, doubled threat range, and +4 on attack rolls to confirm Critical Hit
Golem Strike: You can sneak attack constructs for 1 round
Guided Shot: You ignore distance, cover, concealment penalties with your ranged attacks for 1 round
Insightful Feint: Gain +10 on your next bluff check to feint in combat
Instant Locksmith: Make Disable Device or Open Lock check at +2
Instant Search: Make Search check at +2
Sniper's Shot: No ranged limit on next ranged sneak attack
Spontaneous Search: Instantly Search area as if having taken 10.
Targeting Ray: You and allies are +1 to hit/3 levels against subject

Level 2
Balancing Lorecall: You gain a +4 bonus on Balance Checks
Chain of Eyes, Discern Shapechanger and Marked Object might not have a place in DDO but might be useful in a single quest each that currently exists in DDO


Level 3
Unluck: Subject does 2 rolls and takes the worst one (Possible debuff on saving throws) - I think this is currently called Disadvantage
Assay Spell Resistance: +10 bonus on caster level checks to defeat one creature's spell resistance

Many of those melee buffs are the sort of thing I was thinking of when talking about Clairsentient Telepath Psionicists.

I'd much prefer the Devs save those for Psionicists so that there is at least differences between Psionicists and Arcane Casters.

The Search and Disable Buffs are way too weak {assuming self only} to be worth wasting a spell slot on. {They would stack with Heroism right?}.

+4 to Balance = Meh, No-one's gonna waste a spell slot on that! {Add +4 to Save vs Trip/Slip and maybe}.

[dunklezhan]

New spells are hard. But I looked at the gnomes and thought - this will usefully make my PK better. But I'm going to have to heighten it and maximise it and so on, and unless I take the racial SLA that makes it grossly inefficient to use. I would like to see new general illusion spells.

How about (these are not for the most part PnP spells, I'm making stuff up that I think might be cool in a DDO context):

Illusionary Wall - Will save to ignore, otherwise stuck in the wall on attempting to pass through. Its CC that will probably stop melee's closing, ranged mobs will still be a threat

Greater Illusionary Wall - also blocks LOS, can make a save to ignore LOS blockage if within a large (tac det size) AOE radius (with the wall at centre) - this allows mobs that are close to get a save, but negates mobs which are further away at least until their AI causes them to run forward. Discourages the running-backwards-and-kiting tactics because you dont' want to pull ranged mobs into save range.


Forceful Blur - As blur, now has a knockdown guard effect, will save to resist.

Forceful Displacement - as displacement, now has a knockdown guard effect, will save to resist.

Phantasmal Horror - AOE, causes shaken effect effect on will save, paralyzes (with horror!) on failed save and forces another will save or die.

Shadow X - Shadow Conjuration, L5 spell - gives selector for a few L4 or below conjuration spells (e.g. acid arrow, acid rain, maybe a summon) Shadow Evocation, similar. All would count as illusions, all would count as L4 spells for DC purposes but all saves would switch to Will, they'd all have long cast times and be at least as expensive in SP as their most expensive subspell. Yes, this would mean 3 spells for the price of one, but it might be a very handy option for a backup spell if you happen to run into mobs that are vulnerable to the effects or alternatively, resistant to spells you already have loaded.


I can probably think of more. Other than the wall spells I've tried to only combine effects that are already in game. The wall spells I expect to be out of the question quite honestly given current AI/detection.

It is a shame that prismatic spells are not illusions but... well, they're really not.

[Ayseifn]

Not sure what Turbine was going for with the illusion stuff, if the goal was to make Illusion viable as a school you can spend some gear slots on and at a stretch 13+ AP for +3 DC I think gnomes have mostly achieved that. If the goal was to make Illusion a viable school in it's own right where you'll happily spend feats and the like it's a failure.

Shadow Evocation should really be added though, maybe as a metamagic type stance for gnomes or something. You're tacking on a will save to every damage spell you cast where failure means they take 1/5th the damage on top of evasion or any other normal save they have so I feel it's fair. Both those points I think would be enough to get people to think about investing hard into Illusion, still not enough to make it a no brainer though which is good.

Also we really need Weird, there's 5 good level 9 arcane spells and wizards can take 5 level 9 spells. No hard choices at all, just take every one and good to go. Weird would be the second or 3rd depending on how you count DC based Illusion spell, it's really strong but since Necro and Evo get a ton of DC based save or die/suck spells it'd be fine as long as the cooldown isn't too short.