+7 Tomes on Sale for 2 days.

[Xenich]

Sure however....why are those drop rates set so low in the first place? Because theres a market audience who will pay to circumvent having to grind them out perhaps?

Good point which makes the companies stance on abuse (ie obtaining power too fast/easy) in game play hypocritical and why RMTs are terrible design mechanics for games as they directly affect the games development directions. As you said, why are the drops so low? A common reason used before RMTs was that it disrupted the balance of risk/reward, resulting in poor game play. Though with RMTs, the concern is no longer that balance, rather it is the incentive for people to spend money in the store. This isn't new, Perfect World Entertainment as well as many other Eastern game companies have perfected this carrot by the use of clever walls, grinds, etc... to lead the player to the store to purchase their reward rather than earn it in game. That is why it is amusing to watch people complain about balance while at the same time defending these PTW practices.

[Postumus]

Are you serious devs? I JUST got my +6 to +7 tome from toee and you do this smooth move?? Thanks for making all that time worthless!

Look on the bright side: now you can buy +7 tomes for every stat and don't have to keep farming toee!

[Memnir]

[Xenich]

I agree turbine needs to make money but sometimes a dangling carrot is enough to keep players running things... somethings should not be made so easy to come by as people get bored once they have it and have nothing much to achieve.

Personally, I think their focus on RMT is what resulted in their problems. DDO prospered under RMT for a while because it had a very unique carrot of product to sell in the stores (TR/LR hearts) combined with an "end game" that was really just a superior form of alting. I think that is where they made the bulk of their money in the past. Though in other games, this approach didn't work as well and ended up harming the game (ie LoTRO).

[Postumus]

You know whales are a BIG reason these forums exist for you to post in, right?


Seriously guys, the horse left the barn 5 years ago. Hand wringing every time something goes on sale in the DDO store is just negative energy and a poor use of time.

[Qaliya]

D&D has always been about that progression of play. From the dragons cash, to that golden chest, that mysterious talking sword, etc... the games systems have always been about power progression. D&D has always been about rule systems, progressing through them, etc...

I don't really agree with you here. D&D has been about progression, sure.. but primarily it has been about having fun with the actual content. Progression was anticipated and expected, but not the reason the game was played in the first place.

What would you say to a DM who told you this: "We are going to run the same dungeon over and over. Each time, at the end, I will roll percentile dice, and if they come up "00" you get an awesome sword." I'd say this: "No thanks, goodbye."

Because the point was to enjoy the game itself. Not to focus on the stuff at the end.

Sure however....why are those drop rates set so low in the first place? Because theres a market audience who will pay to circumvent having to grind them out perhaps?

Ironically, for the very same reason you are claiming is important: so people will play more. If the drop rates are high people get the items quickly and the only difference is Turbine is out cash that could be used to improve the game.

Those other MMOs have guaranteed drops in their raids, and guilds decide who gets what using their own system, usually DKP oriented.

Not the ones I've played.

Yes it is self imposed, however once the company sees there is a market audience who imposes that on themselves, and it is saturated with the previous level of character power, to continue to make money off that self imposition, they need to ramp up the level of character power one can buy to new higher standards, which take a much longer time to earn in game. It wont be long now before we start seeing +7 tomes in new build threads. This usually happens shortly after the new increment of tome goes on sale.

This is not much of a "ramping up". I seriously doubt that having an extra +1 to a few stats makes any appreciable difference in the viability of a character even at "end game".

The only really inexcusable items in the DDO store IMO are the experience boxes. But here too, if someone wants to support the game by dropping $1000 to get a pile of past lives, well, that person probably wouldn't have grinded those lives anyway, and I'd rather Turbine have the cash than them just leaving.

[Xenich]

Seriously guys, the horse left the barn 5 years ago. Hand wringing every time something goes on sale in the DDO store is just negative energy and a poor use of time.

Bingo!

I honestly could care less about DDO. I play it as I choose, without care or worry if the company folds (or that of stupid PTW, etc...). If I get tired of the game, I am done, no loss, no care, no concern. I didn't used to be this way, but having MMO companies sell out to main stream continually over the years (You did this multiple times Turbine!), you stop caring and treat them with the same concern they do you.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

The distinction is implicit to your argument, but it's an assumption that I am not sure is warranted. I am not convinced that it is such a great thing for people to spend hours grinding quests to get items. Sure, it temporarily increases numbers in the game.. for some. But others look at the grind and say "forget that", then end up quitting even sooner than they would with items in the store.

I've played MMOs where massive grinding was necessary to get "end game" gear. And guess what? THEIR forums are filled with complaints also... "too luck dependent", "I have a job, I don't need another one", I can't keep up with my guildies", etc... complete with threats to quit over it.

There are likely many people for whom the ability to buy stuff in the store is PREVENTING them from quitting.

The problem isn't grinding v. paying though. There are a lot of things in DDO that require heavy grind (or massive luck), either through upgrading with mats or just fighting a miniscule droprate; but none of those things are gateways to playing through the hardest content. If the thing that stands between you and joining an EE Defiler is a +7 tome, are you really going to be joining that Defiler in the first place?

The issue is power creep and the imbalance of content in epic levels, and the player dissatisfaction from all angles of that discussion. +7 tomes are just one more straw on that camel; they aren't fixing a problem, they are digging at the bottom of an already deep hole.

[Xenich]

I don't really agree with you here. D&D has been about progression, sure.. but primarily it has been about having fun with the actual content. Progression was anticipated and expected, but not the reason the game was played in the first place.

What would you say to a DM who told you this: "We are going to run the same dungeon over and over. Each time, at the end, I will roll percentile dice, and if they come up "00" you get an awesome sword." I'd say this: "No thanks, goodbye."

Because the point was to enjoy the game itself. Not to focus on the stuff at the end.

Fun has no real viable meaning in the point of the discussion though. People do different things for fun, the list of those things are vast and depend on the subject. D&D however has a pretty clear history of its purpose of development. D&Ds roots come from strategy based games (ie chainmail) and though it offered an option D20 system that later became the standard, the point of the game was its systems being placed into a story setting and those systems were that of character progression as it was applied to scenarios, that is a statistical contest of the characters within the various encounters in that story. So, leveling, becoming more powerful, gaining items, etc... was the point of the game. Gygax even created AD&D as a response to the problems people were having with D&D (ie leaving the rule system up to players who lacked any structure or organization). Read through the first edition DM guide and it is clear how rule intensive, how progression based D&D was intended to be.

That said, what you describe is MMO concept (ie running a dungeon over and over again for loot). You didn't do that in PnP (though I imagine you could /shrug) as most of the time you were moving off to new adventures, new areas (modules), etc... Also, level progression was much faster than MMOs (for good reason). So obviously there has been some adaption for video game play. You can't expect a direct translation as it is not reasonable as a product model.

That said, many people played D&D because the "fun" you speak of to them was to explore, gather items and gain power (ie min/maxing statistics and strategies of development).

[slarden]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Over time the top tomes available in the store have become harder to get in-game. For example they are no longer available as 20th rewards for end game raids.

[Chai]

I don't really agree with you here. D&D has been about progression, sure.. but primarily it has been about having fun with the actual content. Progression was anticipated and expected, but not the reason the game was played in the first place.

Its about playing the game, not bribing the Dm to give you extra stuff.

What would you say to a DM who told you this: "We are going to run the same dungeon over and over. Each time, at the end, I will roll percentile dice, and if they come up "00" you get an awesome sword." I'd say this: "No thanks, goodbye."

Would the answer be to pay the DM to give you the item? Or would the answer be to expect reasonable progression with abilities and gear?

Because the point was to enjoy the game itself. Not to focus on the stuff at the end.

And enjoying it means playing it, not paying to circumvent playing it.

Ironically, for the very same reason you are claiming is important: so people will play more. If the drop rates are high people get the items quickly and the only difference is Turbine is out cash that could be used to improve the game.

The drops just need to be reasonable, not so high people get the item on their third run.

This is not much of a "ramping up". I seriously doubt that having an extra +1 to a few stats makes any appreciable difference in the viability of a character even at "end game".

I see this argument each time, and it shows that people are only taking into account the current rise in increment, and not the fact that we are up to +7 tomes as the build standard. 36 point build? try 78 point build. That's not a huge jump? We can now buy more total points than the total we are given to allocate at character creation.

The only really inexcusable items in the DDO store IMO are the experience boxes. But here too, if someone wants to support the game by dropping $1000 to get a pile of past lives, well, that person probably wouldn't have grinded those lives anyway, and I'd rather Turbine have the cash than them just leaving.

Youre trying to say people would rather pay to circumvent playing the game than actually playing the game. If this is the case, their marketing tactic is full on ingenious. This is precisely what ive been referring to as "the market audience ".

Like another poster stated in this thread, people in full on defense of selling this much character power complaining about game balance are the paragons of irony.

[Portalcat]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Again, I think people would take this much better if there was something else difficult and worthwhile to chase at endgame.

There really isn't right now. Developing mythic items as that category seems like the most straightforward route to getting there, but it's nowhere close yet. Endgame players are decked out in raid gear, but there's only one raid with mythics, and that raid cannot readily be run above EN without lagwiping.

[Cetus]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Stupidity can be consistent

Placing items that incentivize running your content in the store is definitely stupid, from a player's point of view anyway.

[Vellrad]

Our policy on stat tomes has been consistent for a number of years. We don’t want you to be able to buy everything you can earn in game, but stat tomes are one of the items that players can either earn in game and, later, get from the store.

Sev~

Never heard about anyone looting +6 or +5=>+6 from chest.

If its faster to just create and delete alts over and over to farm TP, than to farm actual chests to get tome, something's wrong.

[Thrudh]

But you are attempting to initiate a personal discussion where none is warranted.

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

[axel15810]

DDO has to make money, stuff like tomes are a necessary evil.

However, I want to see more in game options than we have now. Tome drop rates seem to be too low. I never ever pull them or see them pulled.

[Xenich]

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

Certainly there is no "fact" as to the decline of MMOs, just various evaluations and arguments either sound or unsound. That said, while you say that PTW is not the cause, that all MMOs are in decline, an interesting observation is that most MMOs these days have some form RMT with PTW features. So while it does not establish such a claim as valid, it certainly gets one to thinking. /shrug

[Severlin]

Again, I think people would take this much better if there was something else difficult and worthwhile to chase at endgame.

There really isn't right now. Developing mythic items as that category seems like the most straightforward route to getting there, but it's nowhere close yet. Endgame players are decked out in raid gear, but there's only one raid with mythics, and that raid cannot readily be run above EN without lagwiping.

I understand what you are saying. First, I doubt this sale will make +7 tomes as an in game reward obsolete. The demand will still be high. Second, the latest content has some good loot, and mythic bonuses help give the players the chance for an upgrade even as they rerun it. U28 will have more end game dungeons as Harry strikes back for some sweet vengeance, and U29 will allow you to progress to level 30 and work on end game loot through an updated epic Greensteel system. We do have end game players in mind.

As an aside, we have a patch coming next week to help reduce lag in the raid, improve hireling AI, and fix the crafting improvements that let players craft from their crafting bank. I won't say the update will solve raid lag, it should improve things.

Sev~

[Whitehairguy]

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

And yet, you guys keep feeding the troll. Odd, that.

[Chai]

You say, "I told you all that selling tomes would hurt the game. Population has declined in the last 5 years, so I have been proven right"

I (and everyone else in this thread) say, "There is no proof that selling tomes or p2w in general is the only or even main cause of the population decline. There are many other possible causes. Most (ALL?) MMOs have declining populations after 10 years. Correlation does not equal causation".

You say, "The difference between correlation and causation doesn't refute my position. In fact, it fully supports it."

??????

false dichotomy. You don't have anywhere near "everyone else" on your side. There have been plenty of people who have disagreed with selling this much character power, both over the years, and in this very thread.

It's impossible to just discuss your position when you respond like this. It's like we're speaking two different languages.

Nope - as proven by people replying with both agreement and disagreement in this thread in a civil rational manner. Here you are again attempting to put it all on the person who disagrees, rather than looking inward for the reason why you have to attempt to turn the discussion in an unnecessary personal direction. Instead of insinuating that something wrong with the poster is the reason why the position exists and cant be discussed, read the example replies which actually discuss the issue in a non personal manner, and follow their example.