U27 Items Official Discussion - Round 2

[Saekee]

Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 15-18/x2 19-20/x3, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 13 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Avarage: 110.51 
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 127.09 

Thunder Froged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x2 19-20/x3, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 12 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 144.09 
Discounting Fire damage: 139.96 


Adding +2 Crit Threat and +1 Crit Mult
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 13 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 129.39 
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 148.80

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 12 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 183.26
Discounting Fire damage: 179.14


At damage mod 50
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 63 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 221.89
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 255.17

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 62 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 275.76
Discounting Fire damage: 271.64


With 100 Melee Power and 20 Seeker 
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 63 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 387.96
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 446.16

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 62 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 428.84
Discounting Fire damage: 426.71

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Flame Touched, Dragon Edge, Crippling Flames
Per Hit Average: 463.94

It looks like it competitive depending on content though some more detailed analysis is warranted as Doublestrike doesn't really work the way I'm factoring it in.

Just thought I'd mention that Fellblade's description states that it is a devil slayer when in fact its cold iron material makes it a demon slayer. Sorry if this was already posted.

[axel15810]

Here's a calc. https://www.dropbox.com/s/d6c1wl7ytr...date%203.6.ods Have at it. Add your own build and compare the weapons. I'm expecting a video!

Maybe if I get time, thanks for the calc. Can't open it at work but will try later.

[Axeyu]

Maybe if I get time, thanks for the calc. Can't open it at work but will try later.

Works best in open office. PM any questions about how it works or how to use it.

[IronClan]

You and steve howe must be the only people in the game that actually think BDR matters.

BDR factors in crits and you have said (and implied) that it doesn't multiple times including in this post I quoted. So you don't understand it's formula or you have a poor understanding of it's formula based on your own posts. IMO you're saying it's useless because you have an incomplete understanding of it. I am saying it's a another data point, no more or less useful than the formula it's based on. I don't use BDR to decided which weapon to use, I don't use Enhancement bonus to decide what weapon to use. By the same token I also don't ignore Enhancement bonus, nor will I call it useless just because I don't base weapon choices on it. It's a data point.

Your attacks on it and calling anyone that looks at it as a data point a "newbie" have an unhealthy ring of fervent belief, but with no specific math to back them up, they just end up sounding like you're demonizing something you have an incomplete understanding of.

[moo_cow]

BDR factors in crits and you have said (and implied) that it doesn't multiple times including in this post I quoted. So you don't understand it's formula or you have a poor understanding of it's formula based on your own posts. IMO you're saying it's useless because you have an incomplete understanding of it. I am saying it's a another data point, no more or less useful than the formula it's based on. I don't use BDR to decided which weapon to use, I don't use Enhancement bonus to decide what weapon to use. By the same token I also don't ignore Enhancement bonus, nor will I call it useless just because I don't base weapon choices on it. It's a data point.

Your attacks on it and calling anyone that looks at it as a data point a "newbie" have an unhealthy ring of fervent belief, but with no specific math to back them up, they just end up sounding like you're demonizing something you have an incomplete understanding of.

It factors in the crits on the weapon with only the weapons damage mod. But it doesn't include every crit multiplier in the game such as in enhancements, feats, and epic destiny's. It doesn't factor any of that in.

Go back and read my posts such as this "BDR should never be the factored since it only touches the damage and crit." This right here tells you that it only bases it on the damage and crit on the weapon. It doesn't add on additional things that I have already stated in this post.

Also read my post that you quoted from because it says the exact same **** thing. It says something like .... it only factors in the + to damage on multipliers on the weapon. It doesn't count in expanded crit range, extra multipliers, and extra bonuses to + damage.

You did not read it clearly.

[Infiltraitor]

Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 15-18/x2 19-20/x3, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 13 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Avarage: 110.51 
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 127.09 

Thunder Froged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x2 19-20/x3, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 12 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 144.09 
Discounting Fire damage: 139.96 


Adding +2 Crit Threat and +1 Crit Mult
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 13 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 129.39 
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 148.80

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 12 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 183.26
Discounting Fire damage: 179.14


At damage mod 50
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 63 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 221.89
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 255.17

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 62 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 275.76
Discounting Fire damage: 271.64


With 100 Melee Power and 20 Seeker 
Fellblade 5.5[1d8] + 13 11-18/x3 19-20/x4, Vorpal, Axiomatic X, Banishing 
24.75 + 63 On Hit: 4d6 + 10d4, On Vorpal: 450  
Per Hit Average: 387.96
Roughly Factoring 15% Doublestrike = 446.16

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Shadow Touched, Dragon Edge, Burning Emptiness
15.75 + 62 On Hit: 8d6, On Crit 253, On Vorpal 82.5 
Per Hit Average: 428.84
Discounting Fire damage: 426.71

Thunder Forged Scimitar 4.5[1d6] + 12 15-18/x3 19-20/x4, Flame Touched, Dragon Edge, Crippling Flames
Per Hit Average: 463.94

It looks like it competitive depending on content though some more detailed analysis is warranted as Doublestrike doesn't really work the way I'm factoring it in.

It is only slightly weaker if on the best possible circumstances (vs demons) and MUCH weaker under most circumstances. It would be like if a stranger challenged you to a contest to see who your own mother loved more and it was a tie. The fellblade is that bad.

[Axeyu]

BDR factors in crits and you have said (and implied) that it doesn't multiple times including in this post I quoted. So you don't understand it's formula or you have a poor understanding of it's formula based on your own posts. IMO you're saying it's useless because you have an incomplete understanding of it. I am saying it's a another data point, no more or less useful than the formula it's based on. I don't use BDR to decided which weapon to use, I don't use Enhancement bonus to decide what weapon to use. By the same token I also don't ignore Enhancement bonus, nor will I call it useless just because I don't base weapon choices on it. It's a data point.

It's a point of irrelevant data. Factoring in BDR to any descision is a mistake.

Your attacks on it and calling anyone that looks at it as a data point a "newbie" have an unhealthy ring of fervent belief, but with no specific math to back them up, they just end up sounding like you're demonizing something you have an incomplete understanding of.

So far the only examples have shown hos useless BDR is.


Here is another example:
Balizarde, BDR: 28.80
Tier 0 thunder forged bastard sword, BDR: 30.80

Please tell me again why BDR is useful data?

[Chai]

Please tell me again why BDR is useful data?

In your calc you hand out, all of the same data points used in BDR are accounted for in that spreadsheet as well. Same variables are same. slicing them up differently doesn't make them different variables. Displaying them individually doesn't make them different variables. If you claim the formula is useless that means all of the variables of the formula are useless, and all of those variables are accounted for in the spreadsheet you are using. either they are both useless or they both aren't, both objectively and subjectively due to claim made of uselessness.

[Steve_Howe]

In your calc you hand out, all of the same data points used in BDR are accounted for in that spreadsheet as well. Same variables are same. slicing them up differently doesn't make them different variables. Displaying them individually doesn't make them different variables. If you claim the formula is useless that means all of the variables of the formula are useless, and all of those variables are accounted for in the spreadsheet you are using. either they are both useless or they both aren't, both objectively and subjectively due to claim made of uselessness.

Somebody else gets it.

[Axeyu]

In your calc you hand out, all of the same data points used in BDR are accounted for in that spreadsheet as well. Same variables are same. slicing them up differently doesn't make them different variables. Displaying them individually doesn't make them different variables. If you claim the formula is useless that means all of the variables of the formula are useless, and all of those variables are accounted for in the spreadsheet you are using. either they are both useless or they both aren't, both objectively and subjectively due to claim made of uselessness.

No, that's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. A formula can be useless even if the variables are useful for other formulas.

Here is a formula for Bas Skada (BS for short):
[W]^2-(critrange+strbonus)/critmultiplier.
My BS formula now only contains useful variables, yet it's completely useless.


Now, BDR is not a nonsense formula like that but it's still too incomplete to have any significance. It is not useful data.

[Chai]

No, that's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. A formula can be useless even if the variables are useful for other formulas.

Here is a formula for Bas Skada (BS for short):
[W]^2-(critrange+strbonus)/critmultiplier.
My BS formula now only contains useful variables, yet it's completely useless.


Now, BDR is not a nonsense formula like that but it's still too incomplete to have any significance. It is not useful data.

No one claimed BDR was the finish line. Claiming its useless, then using all of the same variables in a DPS calc is a direct contradiction in logic. You are essentially calculating the exact same thing, then accounting for other items which interact with it. Its not a useless data point simply because the knowledge you currently want from it cant be gained by ending the formula there. Using that logic as an absolute, all of the now known constants, when discovered, would have been declared useless and humans would still be hunting and gathering.

[Axeyu]

So what use has it then, exactly?

[Chai]

Being one of the datapoints the game uses in its damage dealt formula.

[Axeyu]

Being one of the datapoints the game uses in its damage dealt formula.

The calculated BDR number is not used in the damage dealt formula, that's just silly.
BDR is just another formula that uses some of the same variables.

Claiming its useless, then using all of the same variables in a DPS calc is a direct contradiction in logic.

No, it does not contradict logic in any way. Just because you can use the same variables along with many more to make something useful does not mean that anything with those variables are useful.


So again, when is BDR useful?

[Chai]

The calculated BDR number is not used in the damage dealt formula, that's just silly.
BDR is just another formula that uses some of the same variables.

Using the logic you are presenting here, when people saw the potential to create a language using binary to translate to and from analog inputs and outputs, had one of them convinced the others that it was just silly to use this formula because it doesn't show the complete end result, not only would we not be using computers right now, but we also would be making clothing by hand ~1700s tech.

No, it does not contradict logic in any way. Just because you can use the same variables along with many more to make something useful does not mean that anything with those variables are useful.

Your spreadsheet you continue to post from time to time (as well as in this thread) uses those same variables. You are essentially calculating the BDR and showing how it interacts with other things. You are looking at it as a separate unrelated entity, which is incorrect.

So again, when is BDR useful?

I already explained it. Denial =/= correctness. If you cannot see the relation, the discussion is basically over until you acknowledge it. When you do we can continue.

[moo_cow]

No one claimed BDR was the finish line. Claiming its useless, then using all of the same variables in a DPS calc is a direct contradiction in logic. You are essentially calculating the exact same thing, then accounting for other items which interact with it. Its not a useless data point simply because the knowledge you currently want from it cant be gained by ending the formula there. Using that logic as an absolute, all of the now known constants, when discovered, would have been declared useless and humans would still be hunting and gathering.

Chai, you understand that the variables used in the calculations don't show up on the weapon. So it's impossible for me to take your argument seriously. If you compare BDR and calculate ending damage of a greataxe vs a maul for instance, a maul will come out ahead in every instance with damage that can't be seen on the weapon. I would say in almost every instance the greataxe has a better bdr. Yet it always ends at a lower damage output.

The difference in calculating something with nothing than adding in 6 different constants drastically changes the damage on a weapon. So yes, bdr is a useless data point for everyone. It doesn't contradict what you are calling logic as it actually ends in a different result which actually gives valuable information. That information shows that BDR is worthless. How can you even argue that?

[moo_cow]

Using the logic you are presenting here, when people saw the potential to create a language using binary to translate to and from analog inputs and outputs, had one of them convinced the others that it was just silly to use this formula because it doesn't show the complete end result, not only would we not be using computers right now, but we also would be making clothing by hand ~1700s tech.

Drawing parallels to things which are not parallel doesn't make sense. Don't try and gives examples of this 'logic' which has no relevance.

[moo_cow]

I already explained it. Denial =/= correctness. If you cannot see the relation, the discussion is basically over until you acknowledge it. When you do we can continue.

Really what I'm understanding from you is that BDR is useful because if shows the damage of the stats on a weapon. But it doesn't actually reflect damage, so how can you consider that useful? Making silly statements like this doesn't strengthen your argument. Also saying that the beginning stage of damage is some how used to develop progression from BDR to end result doesn't make sense either, we don't need BDR to see this. The fact is, BDR doesn't reflect damage in a meaningful way. Once you do the math you find that BDR is most often wrong as hell. So using it as a relevant data point for anything is absurd.

[Chai]

Chai, you understand that the variables used in the calculations don't show up on the weapon. So it's impossible for me to take your argument seriously. If you compare BDR and calculate ending damage of a greataxe vs a maul for instance, a maul will come out ahead in every instance with damage that can't be seen on the weapon. I would say in almost every instance the greataxe has a better bdr. Yet it always ends at a lower damage output.

The difference in calculating something with nothing than adding in 6 different constants drastically changes the damage on a weapon. So yes, bdr is a useless data point for everyone. It doesn't contradict what you are calling logic as it actually ends in a different result which actually gives valuable information. That information shows that BDR is worthless. How can you even argue that?

BDR isn't useless simply because its not the finished formula. The variables it represents are present in any DPS calculation worth its salt. Calling it useless demonstrates lack of understanding of how the game calculates damage. It is indeed a direct contradiction in logic to call it useless, then be interested in calculating damage output using the very same variables and showing how they interact with the other items in the build which are not part of the weapon itself. Without this data, you would not be able to even make such a calculation, nor would the game.

Drawing parallels to things which are not parallel doesn't make sense. Don't try and gives examples of this 'logic' which has no relevance.

I have done no such thing. My claim is that a formula which is not a finished product is not irrelevant or useless simply because its not the finished product. If this were true humans would still be in the dark ages. Same conditions as the other poster who is attempting to disagree. This discussion cannot be continued until it is acknowledged that these variables are present in the completed DPS calculations the game uses, and therefore are relevant. We can continue at that point. Without that acknowledgement this discussion will simply turn into the two sides repeating the same things over and over, without moving forward - something I have no interest in taking part in.

Really what I'm understanding from you is that BDR is useful because if shows the damage of the stats on a weapon. But it doesn't actually reflect damage, so how can you consider that useful? Making silly statements like this doesn't strengthen your argument. Also saying that the beginning stage of damage is some how used to develop progression from BDR to end result doesn't make sense either, we don't need BDR to see this. The fact is, BDR doesn't reflect damage in a meaningful way. Once you do the math you find that BDR is most often wrong as hell. So using it as a relevant data point for anything is absurd.

Incorrect. The same variables are present in any DPS calc worth its salt. Until you realize this, any attempt at explaining comparative damage not including those, is incomplete, and therefore by your own logic, irrelevant, as in its incompleteness it doesn't reflect damage in any meaningful way.

[Axeyu]

My claim is that a formula which is not a finished product is not irrelevant or useless simply because its not the finished product.

You seem to believe that I disagree with that. You are not understanding what I'm saying, because I can tell you that I do not disagree with that at all.
I am not saying that BDR is wrong or is not showing what it's supposed to. I'm just saying that there is no use for that number.

The intented function seems to be to compare or evaluate weapons (and that's the context it wes used here). It fails at doing that because it is missing important data. Nor can you use the calculated BDR number and add the missing data for yourself, because the data must be added before the calculations occur in this case.

That is uses some useful variables is irrelevant. It's still just a derived number. There is far from a 1:1 correlation between BDR and actual damage performance, so how exactly are you going to use it? And no, it's not used in the "damage dealt" calculations (that is obvious from the fact that BDR is based on average dice rolls).